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(The Daily Beast)   To understand how extraordinary this obsession with Israel is, just imagine the uproar if any senator raised objections to a US cabinet nominee over, say their "commitment" to Canada, France or Turkey   (andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com) divider line 370
    More: Obvious, Turkey  
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7206 clicks; posted to Main » on 10 Jan 2013 at 11:10 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-10 08:17:51 AM  
Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.
 
2013-01-10 08:29:06 AM  
no. farking. shiat.
 
2013-01-10 09:22:30 AM  

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


and here we go...
 
2013-01-10 09:35:14 AM  

Altair: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

and here we go...


Well, okay, I forgot that a few years back the Danes were ready to start some shiat with Canada over that rock up near Greenland. Thankfully, diplomacy prevailed and we were spared the horrors of the Poutine/Lego War of 2005.
 
2013-01-10 09:40:00 AM  

Gulper Eel: Altair: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

and here we go...

Well, okay, I forgot that a few years back the Danes were ready to start some shiat with Canada over that rock up near Greenland. Thankfully, diplomacy prevailed and we were spared the horrors of the Poutine/Lego War of 2005.


Cute.

But I love how for all the hewing and crying over our sovereignty with regard to the UN, we seem to be ready to sacrifice it for Israel without question or hesitation.
 
2013-01-10 09:57:33 AM  

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


Well, France.
 
2013-01-10 09:59:08 AM  

Diogenes: Gulper Eel: Altair: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

and here we go...

Well, okay, I forgot that a few years back the Danes were ready to start some shiat with Canada over that rock up near Greenland. Thankfully, diplomacy prevailed and we were spared the horrors of the Poutine/Lego War of 2005.

Cute.

But I love how for all the hewing and crying over our sovereignty with regard to the UN, we seem to be ready to sacrifice it for Israel without question or hesitation.


Really? Supporting an ally is now "sacrificing our sovereignty"?

Damn those Japanese for making us give up our sovereignty! And likewise let us curse the Germans and those dastardly villains in the Netherlands!
 
2013-01-10 10:01:18 AM  

God Is My Co-Pirate: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

Well, France.


They have enough hot women that they can stay. Besides, nobody wants a giant Luxembourg.
 
2013-01-10 10:06:47 AM  

give me doughnuts: Diogenes: Gulper Eel: Altair: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

and here we go...

Well, okay, I forgot that a few years back the Danes were ready to start some shiat with Canada over that rock up near Greenland. Thankfully, diplomacy prevailed and we were spared the horrors of the Poutine/Lego War of 2005.

Cute.

But I love how for all the hewing and crying over our sovereignty with regard to the UN, we seem to be ready to sacrifice it for Israel without question or hesitation.

Really? Supporting an ally is now "sacrificing our sovereignty"?

Damn those Japanese for making us give up our sovereignty! And likewise let us curse the Germans and those dastardly villains in the Netherlands!


No.  It is, of course, a matter of degree.
 
2013-01-10 10:10:41 AM  

Gulper Eel: ... surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


"But enough about the Palestinian occupied territories!"

i.imgur.com


/it begins
 
2013-01-10 10:25:15 AM  

Somacandra: Gulper Eel: ... surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

"But enough about the Palestinian occupied territories!"

[i.imgur.com image 250x200]


/it begins


Yeah. If they could finally push all the Egyptian and Jordanian squatters out of Gaza and the West Bank, Israel could finally stabilize its borders.
 
2013-01-10 10:36:26 AM  

Gulper Eel: God Is My Co-Pirate: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

Well, France.

They have enough hot women that they can stay. Besides, nobody wants a giant Luxembourg.


Canada's got some damn fine women too.   Ahh, Montreal...
 
2013-01-10 10:56:17 AM  
America led the UN in establishing Israel.  They are family.
 
2013-01-10 11:07:26 AM  
So Fark is a mouthpiece for the Electronic Intifada now?
 
2013-01-10 11:11:41 AM  

PowerSlacker: So Fark is a mouthpiece for the Electronic Intifada now?


Yes, that's exactly right, just like it's the mouthpiece for WorldNetDaily, HuffingtonPost, American Thinker, Reason, Daily Kos and the Daily Caller.
 
2013-01-10 11:11:44 AM  
o.onionstatic.com
 
2013-01-10 11:12:33 AM  

give me doughnuts: Damn those Japanese for making us give up our sovereignty! And likewise let us curse the Germans and those dastardly villains in the Netherlands!


So there are US presidential appointees getting put through the wringer because theyre not sufficiently pro-Dutch, pro-Japanese, or pro-German enough?

Way to miss the point.
 
2013-01-10 11:13:29 AM  
Who cares. Once the Baby Boomer generation is dead the Israel lobby will be powerless.
 
2013-01-10 11:13:51 AM  
Interesting tidbit, from link in TFA, Elliott Abrams from the Council on Foreign Relations went all in on NPR and said Hagel is an anti-Semite. That's what you get for not supporting "our" family.

http://mondoweiss.net/2013/01/elliott-abrams-semite.html
 
2013-01-10 11:14:40 AM  
You guys are all way off base, it has way more to do with pandering to a religious group for votes than actually protecting any other nations.
 
2013-01-10 11:14:50 AM  

God Is My Co-Pirate: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

Well, France.


Which is why we have had troops stationed in Germany for 60 years.

We used to have bases in France, but deGaulle kicked us out when he left NATO.
 
2013-01-10 11:14:54 AM  
Israel will be toast soon......in a few decades there will be more Israeli citizens of Arab descent than Jews. A recent poll of young Israelis(under 35) shows that most would like to leave, and most of the majority would like to go to Europe.
 
2013-01-10 11:15:11 AM  
Ali Abunimah of Electronic Intifada, sounds legit.

"To understand how extraordinary this obsession with South Korea is, just imagine the uproar if any senator raised objections to a US cabinet nominee over, say their "commitment" to Canada, France or Turkey who are actually members of NATO."

Signed, The Tubby Guy from Best Korea.
 
2013-01-10 11:15:40 AM  

Because People in power are Stupid: [o.onionstatic.com image 600x411]


I have it on good authority that Seth ate a non-Kosher hot dog at a Tigers game once.
 
2013-01-10 11:15:44 AM  
Go U.S.A never stop sucking that sweet sweet Isreali cock.
 
2013-01-10 11:16:15 AM  

tallguywithglasseson: Interesting tidbit, from link in TFA, Elliott Abrams from the Council on Foreign Relations went all in on NPR and said Hagel is an anti-Semite. That's what you get for not supporting "our" family.

http://mondoweiss.net/2013/01/elliott-abrams-semite.html


The follow-up makes that bit even more ridiculous

But Abrams wrote in his book Faith or Fear (1997)
Outside the land of Israel, there can be no doubt that Jews, faithful to the covenant between God and Abraham, are to stand apart from the nation in which they live. It is the very nature of being Jewish to be apart-except in Israel-from the rest of the population....
 
2013-01-10 11:17:17 AM  
We gave ( and continue to give) the Israelies their country, unlimited funds and unlimited access to men, material and technology; what else could they possibly want?

/ don't get me wrong; I like the Israelies, especially the 18 year old female variety

// sometimes, I wonder if we should just let the Israelies have at the rest of the Middle East; the other countries wouldn't stand a chance
 
2013-01-10 11:17:40 AM  

pag1107: You guys are all way off base, it has way more to do with pandering to a religious group for votes than actually protecting any other nations.


THIS
 
2013-01-10 11:17:58 AM  
Yeah, those countries you named are all useless. Unlike Israel.
 
2013-01-10 11:18:03 AM  

people: give me doughnuts: Damn those Japanese for making us give up our sovereignty! And likewise let us curse the Germans and those dastardly villains in the Netherlands!

So there are US presidential appointees getting put through the wringer because theyre not sufficiently pro-Dutch, pro-Japanese, or pro-German enough?

Way to miss the point.


Way not to read, or understand, the original post I was responding to.
 
2013-01-10 11:18:28 AM  

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


Funny, I've been told countless times by Americans that if not for them, Canada would have been conquered several times over now.
 
2013-01-10 11:18:53 AM  

halfof33: Ali Abunimah of Electronic Intifada, sounds legit.

"To understand how extraordinary this obsession with South Korea is, just imagine the uproar if any senator raised objections to a US cabinet nominee over, say their "commitment" to Canada, France or Turkey who are actually members of NATO."

Signed, The Tubby Guy from Best Korea.


That it's laughable a nomination might be scuttled (and the nominee be called racist in the process) for past criticism of South Korean policy and lobbying power... kind of supports the point. Not sure if that's what you were trying to do.
 
2013-01-10 11:18:58 AM  

iheartscotch: We gave ( and continue to give) the Israelies their country, unlimited funds and unlimited access to men, material and technology; what else could they possibly want?


I just realized that they're playing Command & Conquer with all the cheat codes on and the still can't win.
 
2013-01-10 11:19:06 AM  

BravadoGT: America led the UN in establishing Israel.  They are family.


But I have been assured that we hate the UN.
 
2013-01-10 11:19:34 AM  

tricycleracer: the


*they
 
2013-01-10 11:19:45 AM  
Charges of antisemitism is the "playing the race card" of the right.
 
2013-01-10 11:20:22 AM  
I am a Zionist, I believe the Jewish people should have their own country.

That being said, Israel today is a shameful apartheid state and I don't want my money supporting the current Israeli regime.
 
2013-01-10 11:20:40 AM  

Fissile: Israel will be toast soon......in a few decades there will be more Israeli citizens of Arab descent than Jews. A recent poll of young Israelis(under 35) shows that most would like to leave, and most of the majority would like to go to Europe.


To be fair, who wants to live in a warzone in the desert?
 
2013-01-10 11:20:42 AM  

BravadoGT: America led the UN in establishing Israel.  They are family.


I don't have any family that I've financially supported for 65 years.
 
2013-01-10 11:20:56 AM  

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


What are you talking about? We surround Canada thanks to Alaska.
 
2013-01-10 11:21:01 AM  
I'm often told, "But they're our ally in the Middle East," to which I always wonder how, exactly, they help us in any way. Does the presence of our friend Israel mean I get cheap gas? No? Do they supply us with anything other than a bunch of Arabs who are mad at us for giving aid to Israel, and a bunch of espionage attempts? No? Then fark 'em.
 
2013-01-10 11:21:02 AM  

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


Now why is that ...?

i560.photobucket.com
 
2013-01-10 11:22:42 AM  

ITGreen: Gulper Eel: God Is My Co-Pirate: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

Well, France.

They have enough hot women that they can stay. Besides, nobody wants a giant Luxembourg.

Canada's got some damn fine women too.   Ahh, Montreal...


We start out Montreal and we end up Trois-Rivières. It's the Canadian Curse.
 
2013-01-10 11:23:09 AM  
You know how I know you didn't read the article?
 
2013-01-10 11:23:18 AM  

Uncle Tractor: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

Now why is that ...?

[i560.photobucket.com image 640x453]


uh, there are arab jews. about 50-75% of jews are arabs. That's why it's so ridiculous that they want to treat the country as an enemy and/or different when they're basically all the same people with the same hereditary background.
 
2013-01-10 11:24:01 AM  

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


Don't know a lot about the geography of Turkey, do you?
 
2013-01-10 11:24:19 AM  
i.imgur.com
 
2013-01-10 11:24:29 AM  

Uncle Tractor: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

Now why is that ...?

[i560.photobucket.com image 640x453]


That's kind of like saying "How does one establish a Muslim country where 90% of the population is Persian."

One is a religion, one is an ethnicity. The two don't always go together.
 
2013-01-10 11:24:53 AM  

Prank Call of Cthulhu: I'm often told, "But they're our ally in the Middle East," to which I always wonder how, exactly, they help us in any way. Does the presence of our friend Israel mean I get cheap gas? No? Do they supply us with anything other than a bunch of Arabs who are mad at us for giving aid to Israel, and a bunch of espionage attempts? No? Then fark 'em.


They help us by attempting to meddle in our elections while at the same time making any diplomacy in the middle east about a million times more difficult. We are the battered wife in a dysfunctional relationship with an unemployed plumber who is a giant douchbag to everyone on the block.
 
2013-01-10 11:25:26 AM  

Uncle Tractor



Answer: You kick their ass in a war. Like we did. And just about every other nation did at one time or another.
 
2013-01-10 11:25:36 AM  
www.smarter.org

Don't bother clicking here, nothing will happen...
 
2013-01-10 11:25:52 AM  
Unless I'm mistaken, it's pretty much the right wing who's obsessed with Israel, and they have this goofy habit of conflating 'Netanyahu' and 'Likud' with 'Israel' ... right?

So, if the Repub party implodes like we're hoping it will and we get to the point where people are ashamed to admit in public that they used to be Teabaggers ... problem solved?
 
2013-01-10 11:25:59 AM  

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


Not untrue but Israel's situation isn't especially unique, and we don't treat other nations in the same situation with that same consideration.

You're forgetting how useful the IDF is in field testing next generation military hardware etc. I'm sure that at first guilt over letting the Holocaust happen may have played a part in our early foreign policy with them but these days pragmatism (or at least what a lot of policymakers feel is the more pragmatic approach) rules our policy with Israel.

Bear in mind I don't necessarily agree that this is all a good idea, or at least I wouldn't mind if the IDF/Israel in general wasn't so gungho about using physical force and were more interested in diplomacy (one party needs to be the "bigger man" here, might as well be the one that has the same gear our dudes use).
 
2013-01-10 11:26:04 AM  

Zeno-25: [i.imgur.com image 720x540]


They're off by a factor of 10, and almost all of it is spent here, at defense contractors.
 
2013-01-10 11:26:42 AM  
Okay, since I'm too lazy to dig but still care to know, is Hagel's Jewish position:

A. He supports giving them money and materiel consistently, but is offended that such a tiny minority holds so much sway that any criticism of any action of Israel (settlement building, slum bombardment, etc...) is off limits

OR

B. He supports giving them money and materiel consistently, but they're still damn, dirty Jews that run Hollywood and have ruined everything.

I know he's supported them with legislation, it is the "Israel critic" versus "I hate Jews" position that needs clarification for me.
 
2013-01-10 11:26:55 AM  
And she questions their commitment to Sparkle Motion.

3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-01-10 11:27:03 AM  

vernonFL: I am a Zionist, I believe the Jewish people should have their own country.


The most sensible place by far to establish a Jewish state following WW2 would have been Florida.
 
2013-01-10 11:27:23 AM  

pag1107: You guys are all way off base, it has way more to do with pandering to a religious group for votes than actually protecting any other nations.


i216.photobucket.com

Obama got 69% of the Jewish vote.
It must not be working.
 
2013-01-10 11:28:04 AM  

tallguywithglasseson: That it's laughable a nomination might be scuttled (and the nominee be called racist in the process) for past criticism of South Korean policy and lobbying power... kind of supports the point. Not sure if that's what you were trying to do.


Um, not if the person making the comment is a sworn enemy of South Korea, he might have the same credibility problems as Electronic Intifada, for example.
 
2013-01-10 11:28:24 AM  
We also weren't part of a group that created Canada, Frnace or Turkey out of thin air.
 
2013-01-10 11:28:39 AM  

farkingatwork: uh, there are arab jews. about 50-75% of jews are arabs. That's why it's so ridiculous that they want to treat the country as an enemy and/or different when they're basically all the same people with the same hereditary background.


Before the aliyahs, the jewish (sephardim/mizrahim) population was less than 10% of the total, and the ashkenazi population (the zionists at the time) was ca 0%.
 
2013-01-10 11:29:20 AM  
If that person put the interest of Canada, France, or Turkey ahead of the US, then yes, that's a major farking problem.
 
2013-01-10 11:29:33 AM  

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


Israel has nukes. No one is going to wipe them off the map anytime soon.

Furthermore, this isn't our problem. We only support Israel because bronze age death cultists think it's necessary in order to have the second coming and the end of days.
 
2013-01-10 11:29:37 AM  
Good idea. Giving Jews money.
They won't ask for more.
 
2013-01-10 11:29:57 AM  
i49.tinypic.com
 
2013-01-10 11:30:17 AM  

tricycleracer: iheartscotch: We gave ( and continue to give) the Israelies their country, unlimited funds and unlimited access to men, material and technology; what else could they possibly want?

I just realized that they're playing Command & Conquer with all the cheat codes on and the still can't win.


Wellll... I'd say, rather, that they are playing Total War with all of the cheat codes; but, they allied themselves with a very powerful, but extremely internally contentious country early on. The effect being; they can't attack people without their ally sending them strongly worded letters or threatening to cut the support they give.

/ actually happened to me once when I played Empire- Total War
 
2013-01-10 11:31:30 AM  

give me doughnuts: If they could finally push all the Egyptian and Jordanian squatters


i.imgur.com


I doubt it. The vast majority of people there, generations after generation are descended from the people that lived there under Ottoman regional rule--known as Palestinians.Deporting the few with Jordanian or Egyptian citizenship wouldn't help.

 
2013-01-10 11:31:34 AM  

Prank Call of Cthulhu: I'm often told, "But they're our ally in the Middle East," to which I always wonder how, exactly, they help us in any way. Does the presence of our friend Israel mean I get cheap gas? No? Do they supply us with anything other than a bunch of Arabs who are mad at us for giving aid to Israel, and a bunch of espionage attempts? No? Then fark 'em.


Resupply port for the 6th Fleet. Logistical and maintenance support for other U.S. forces in the Middle East. Joint training exercises. Technical collaberation on weapons systems.
 
2013-01-10 11:32:52 AM  
Just to posit a thought experiment, if Bibi and the Likud lost the next election in a wave of public disgust, a new coalition government was assembled based on reopening the Oslo Accords, and their first act was to start dismantling settlements in the West Bank, how many of the Farkers crying "Electronic Intifada!" here would suddenly fall silent or, indeed, start screaming loudly that Israel had lost its way and we should withdraw all support?
 
2013-01-10 11:34:14 AM  

halfof33: Um, not if the person making the comment is a sworn enemy of South Korea, he might have the same credibility problems as Electronic Intifada, for example.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Abunimah
He's a sworn enemy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Intifada
Having a pro-Palestinian stance = no credibility?
What about the countless numbers of organizations with pro-Isreal stances, do they likewise lack credibility on this issue?
Or is it that only pro-Israel perspectives are credible?
 
2013-01-10 11:34:20 AM  

doubled99: Answer: You kick their ass in a war. Like we did. And just about every other nation did at one time or another.


Exactly; you invade and make your living space space on the conquered land ...and that's why their neighbors hate them.
 
2013-01-10 11:34:34 AM  

Because People in power are Stupid: [o.onionstatic.com image 600x411]


Lord above, you sure named yourself correctly
 
2013-01-10 11:35:14 AM  

Incog_Neeto: Go U.S.A never stop sucking that sweet sweet Isreali cock.



Hey, Israel is the Rothschild's baby, and they happen to hold the mortgage on the United States of America.

Show some respect.
 
2013-01-10 11:35:21 AM  

people: tallguywithglasseson: Interesting tidbit, from link in TFA, Elliott Abrams from the Council on Foreign Relations went all in on NPR and said Hagel is an anti-Semite. That's what you get for not supporting "our" family.

http://mondoweiss.net/2013/01/elliott-abrams-semite.html

The follow-up makes that bit even more ridiculous

But Abrams wrote in his book Faith or Fear (1997)
Outside the land of Israel, there can be no doubt that Jews, faithful to the covenant between God and Abraham, are to stand apart from the nation in which they live. It is the very nature of being Jewish to be apart-except in Israel-from the rest of the population....



There is still much for us to learn about being an Anti-Semite vs. not being an Anti-Semite as instructed by Fark Jews™ but I would guess it would not be Kosher for a gentile to make that same observation (how does someone that thinks like that get a US security clearance?). If one of us gentiles were to say that, would we be instructed it is a "that old canard" that anti-semites run out? And would noticing that make one a "viscious anti-semite" or a "vile anti-semite"?
 
2013-01-10 11:35:29 AM  

Banned on the Run: Obama got 69% of the Jewish vote.


Money Money Mooonaay.

Commentary
Text on mondoweiss
Estimates of the amount of money Jews have donated to American politicians, parties, and causes are even less accurate than the loose estimates of Jewish votes, but there is little question that the figure is staggering. It is impossible to determine precisely the grand total contributed to only presidential candidates by individual Jewish donors, but it may well be as much or more than one third of all Democratic money and a lesser though still impressive percentage of the funds raised by Republicans


Washington Post
Democratic candidates depend on Jewish supporters to supply as much as 60 percent of the money raised from private sources. Any significant reduction in the financial support will weaken Democratic candidates and the Democratic Party organizations.

Jerusaem Post

Jewish Telegraph Agency
Where the Jews stand on Obama matters not just because of the Jewish vote, which is significant in key swing states such as Florida, Pennsylvania and Ohio, but also because of Jewish money. The 2012 presidential election will be the first since a Supreme Court ruling allowing unlimited corporate giving to candidates. The Obama campaign has said it will need more money than ever because big business tends to lean Republican.

Obama captured 78 percent of the Jewish vote in 2008, and estimates over the years have reckoned that Jewish donors provide between one-third and two-thirds of the party's money.
Podhoretz
Where it matters-where Obama's team is clearly worried and where it is seeking to come up with counterarguments to give to surrogates-is money. It's one thing to cast a single vote as the member of a small minority community to which outsized attention is paid. But Jews are uncommonly generous givers, both philanthropically and politically, and while they might still cast a vote for Obama, they might give him nothing. Or half what they gave him in 2008.
 
2013-01-10 11:35:29 AM  

david_gaithersburg: If that person put the interest of Canada, France, or Turkey ahead of the US, then yes, that's a major farking problem.


Yes, because that is clearly what is happening.
 
2013-01-10 11:36:26 AM  
'Quote For The Day' from Ali Abunimah of Electronic Intifada ? oh man. This is brilliant. They should be asking about "the Arab obsession with Israel and Arabs' incessant blaming of the Jews for everything that's wrong in their world".
 
2013-01-10 11:36:40 AM  

Uncle Tractor

doubled99: Answer: You kick their ass in a war. Like we did. And just about every other nation did at one time or another.

Exactly; you invade and make your living space space on the conquered land ...and that's why their neighbors hate them.


So you understand. Then why the naive question?
 
2013-01-10 11:37:13 AM  

Clemkadidlefark: Lord above, you sure named yourself correctly


A. He's not in power, 2. That's a pretty obvious Onion graphic and III. pot, meet kettle.
 
2013-01-10 11:37:35 AM  
We should use this dialogue as an opportunity...

We continue aid as we have done before for Israel if they will enjoin the Jewish people to tip at least 15% in our restaurants.
 
2013-01-10 11:39:05 AM  

doubled99: Yeah, those countries you named are all useless. Unlike Israel.


As I said to my ex "You say that now, but by this time next year you'll begging for my soft wood!"
 
2013-01-10 11:39:54 AM  
It's because they need the temple to be re-built in Jerusalem before Jesus can come back.

I swear to God I think this is the underlying reason.
 
2013-01-10 11:40:02 AM  
Am I right in assuming that all supporters of a Jewish state are also supporters of a Kurdish state?
 
2013-01-10 11:40:30 AM  
It's so nice to see that "Jews are rich bankers who control the world's economy" is still a thing people believe.

// not all of you
// but enough that I occasionally want to move back to Israel
// paranoia strikes deep...
 
2013-01-10 11:41:24 AM  

Agarista: Am I right in assuming that all supporters of a Jewish state are also supporters of a Kurdish state?


That depends, do they love Jesus?
 
2013-01-10 11:41:36 AM  
Religion's a hell of a drug, subby.
 
2013-01-10 11:41:40 AM  

pag1107: You guys are all way off base, it has way more to do with pandering to a religious group for votes than actually protecting any other nations.


Exactly. Evangelical Christians are a paranoid death cult that are praying for the day that their messiah to comes back and destroys the world. And somehow, they're convinced that by supporting Israel, they will convince their crazy and capricious god to being the complete and total annihilation of the world a little earlier.

It is sad that American politics are so heavily influenced by a delusional warlike death cult, but there you go. You have to live with reality.
 
2013-01-10 11:42:46 AM  

ph0rk: Agarista: Am I right in assuming that all supporters of a Jewish state are also supporters of a Kurdish state?

That depends, do they love Jesus?


about equally...
 
2013-01-10 11:43:09 AM  

vernonFL: I am a Zionist, I believe the Jewish people should have their own country.



Why?

Zionism has brought nothing but trouble to Jews and Gentiles alike - especially in the region.

The goal of the (largely secular) Zionists in creating the "Jewish State" was not to protect Jews from "anti-Semitism", but to prevent Jews from assimilation.

The latter being the perceived as the greater "threat", by far.
 
2013-01-10 11:43:20 AM  

vernonFL: I am a Zionist, I believe the Jewish people should have their own country.

That being said, Israel today is a shameful apartheid state and I don't want my money supporting the current Israeli regime.


I believe my stepson should have his own place to live.

That being said, I'm disgusted with the little idiot and am not about to put him up in my house or pay his rent.

/that, and I'm cheap
 
2013-01-10 11:43:43 AM  

Pincy: pag1107: You guys are all way off base, it has way more to do with pandering to a religious group for votes than actually protecting any other nations.

THIS


this again.

interesting-im posting this from my kindle paperwhite. it works. just no gifs.
i farking love this reader. shattered my phone screen so i thought I'd try. i can still use the phone though.
yes i know nobody cares.
 
2013-01-10 11:44:00 AM  

tallguywithglasseson: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Abunimah
He's a sworn enemy? IWAS TALKING ABOUT OF ISRAEL (and maybe indulged in a wee bit of hyperbole, so shoot me)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Intifada
Having a pro-Palestinian stance = no credibility?

CREDIBILITY PROBLEM ON TOPICS OF USA INVOLVEMENT IN ISRAEL

What about the countless numbers of organizations with pro-Isreal stances, do they likewise lack credibility on this issue?

YES CREDIBILITY PROBLEM ON TOPICS OF USA INVOLVEMENT IN ISRAEL
?


In other words, I'd take a what either says with a big grain of salt. Thanks for asking!
 
2013-01-10 11:44:28 AM  
Israel is a US ally. Israel is opposed by the same people who oppose America. Israel is under ongoing threat. That is why the questions are germane
 
2013-01-10 11:45:05 AM  
i have a problem with any theocracy - be it israel, iran, saudi arabia or the republican vision for the united states.
 
2013-01-10 11:45:11 AM  

Crotchrocket Slim: Bear in mind



i141.photobucket.com
No thanks!
 
2013-01-10 11:45:25 AM  

Dr Dreidel: It's so nice to see that "Jews are rich bankers who control the world's economy" is still a thing people believe.


Hyperbole.

Rich? Yes. Give a lot of money to US election campaigns? Yes.
 
2013-01-10 11:46:27 AM  
Serious question for the historians and political scientists here (if any):

Are there any historical precedents for a tiny nation exerting so much influence over both the internal and external policies of an almost infinitely larger and more powerful nation?
 
2013-01-10 11:47:27 AM  

give me doughnuts: Resupply port for the 6th Fleet. Logistical and maintenance support for other U.S. forces in the Middle East. Joint training exercises. Technical collaberation on weapons systems.


Those don't strike me as particularly compelling reasons. There's lots of other ports in the Med. I don't know that a good answer to "why do we do stuff with them" is "because they do joint training exercises with us".
 
2013-01-10 11:47:38 AM  
Young Jewish liberals don't believe AIPAC really exists (its a fictional conspiracy cabal dreamed up by deluded anti-semites). Congress votes the way it does because of all those knuckle dragging End of Times Christians.

No, really, this is what they believe!

westernrifleshooters.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-01-10 11:47:46 AM  

Vectron: people: tallguywithglasseson: Interesting tidbit, from link in TFA, Elliott Abrams from the Council on Foreign Relations went all in on NPR and said Hagel is an anti-Semite. That's what you get for not supporting "our" family.

http://mondoweiss.net/2013/01/elliott-abrams-semite.html

The follow-up makes that bit even more ridiculous

But Abrams wrote in his book Faith or Fear (1997)
Outside the land of Israel, there can be no doubt that Jews, faithful to the covenant between God and Abraham, are to stand apart from the nation in which they live. It is the very nature of being Jewish to be apart-except in Israel-from the rest of the population....


There is still much for us to learn about being an Anti-Semite vs. not being an Anti-Semite as instructed by Fark Jews™ but I would guess it would not be Kosher for a gentile to make that same observation (how does someone that thinks like that get a US security clearance?). If one of us gentiles were to say that, would we be instructed it is a "that old canard" that anti-semites run out? And would noticing that make one a "viscious anti-semite" or a "vile anti-semite"?



Yes.
 
2013-01-10 11:47:58 AM  

qualtrough: Serious question for the historians and political scientists here (if any):

Are there any historical precedents for a tiny nation exerting so much influence over both the internal and external policies of an almost infinitely larger and more powerful nation?


Uhhh, the Vatican?
 
2013-01-10 11:48:07 AM  
Correct me if I'm wrong, but when Israel was established after WWII, The USA was against it and was outvoted. How did we end up holding that bag of shiat.
 
2013-01-10 11:48:13 AM  
This has nothing to do with Israel and everything to do with setting up the conditions for the Second Coming.

Support for Israel only goes as far as seeing them burn in the Apocalypse.
 
2013-01-10 11:48:42 AM  

Your Silence is Killing Kurds: Israel is a US ally. Israel is opposed by the same people who oppose America. Israel is under ongoing threat. That is why the questions are germane


upload.wikimedia.org

I don't see how germanium hydrate fits into this
 
2013-01-10 11:48:50 AM  

qualtrough: Are there any historical precedents for a tiny nation exerting so much influence over both the internal and external policies of an almost infinitely larger and more powerful nation?


The Vatican and Dark Ages European kingdoms.
 
2013-01-10 11:49:52 AM  
Dont forget Poland!

// Would have been funnier if I was here earlier.
 
2013-01-10 11:50:03 AM  

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


So Farking What. Yes, Israel has some puny, insignificant enemies, so do we. Just like us, Israel has nukes. No Arab nation is crazy enough to actually invade them again. No one needs to fear for Israel's continued existence.

Iran you say? No, the Iranian leadership isn't insane. Even if they had nukes they wouldn't nuke Israel. They're typical, pragmatic dictators who've wrapped themselves in whatever shroud was most convenient. In this case, the shroud is fundamentalist Islam. Hitler wasn't really about fascism, he was about power. Stalin wasn't really about communism, he was about power. Iran's mullahs aren't really about Islam, they're about Power. Even the craziest dictators fully realize the ramifications of mutually assured destruction. For proof of that, we need only look to best Korea.

Israel is not a good ally for the United States. Israel does almost nothing to benefit the United States, quite the opposite in fact. Much of the hatred of the US is based on Israeli apartheid of the Palestinians
.
You've provided some good examples of fine US allies. Canada, France and Turkey pull their weight. They're good, solid allies to the US. Israel is not, Israel is a drag on the US. I'm not saying they need to be dumped as an ally, but we do need to cut them loose financially. Israel hasn't needed our financial help in decades, but they continue to receive BILLIONS in US tax payers money each and every year. Fark independents looking for a some budget items to start cutting - how about the 3 to 6 billion dollars (depending on if you count loan guarantees) we give to Israel each and every farking year.
 
2013-01-10 11:50:24 AM  

Dr Dreidel: It's so nice to see that "Jews are rich bankers who control the world's economy" is still a thing people believe.

// not all of you
// but enough that I occasionally want to move back to Israel
// paranoia strikes deep...


It's not that (well, I don't doubt that some people hold this view); here are the more rational concerns:

-Israel holds disproportional lobbying influence for a foreign nation, even as an ally
-Israel is a "problem ally" in that US support for Israel is a diplomatic thorn for many other nations in the region, and (unfairly or not) there is a perception that the US gives tacit approval for controversial Israeli actions (like aggressive expansion)
 
2013-01-10 11:50:51 AM  

imontheinternet: qualtrough: Are there any historical precedents for a tiny nation exerting so much influence over both the internal and external policies of an almost infinitely larger and more powerful nation?

The Vatican and Dark Ages European kingdoms.


geographically speaking, england was pretty small, yet it famously ruled much of the globe for most of the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries.
 
2013-01-10 11:51:22 AM  

Vectron: Young Jewish liberals don't believe AIPAC really exists (its a fictional conspiracy cabal dreamed up by deluded anti-semites). Congress votes the way it does because of all those knuckle dragging End of Times Christians.

No, really, this is what they believe!

[westernrifleshooters.files.wordpress.com image 331x270]


Nice of you to let people know what they believe.
 
2013-01-10 11:51:43 AM  

Somacandra: give me doughnuts: If they could finally push all the Egyptian and Jordanian squatters

[i.imgur.com image 400x251]
I doubt it. The vast majority of people there, generations after generation are descended from the people that lived there under Ottoman regional rule--known as Palestinians.Deporting the few with Jordanian or Egyptian citizenship wouldn't help.



Until 1988, the non-Israeli residents of the West Bank were Jordanian citizens, but instead of letting them into the rest of country when Jordan relenquished its claim, the government instead stripped those people of their citizenship.
 
2013-01-10 11:54:12 AM  

Fissile: Israel will be toast soon......in a few decades there will be more Israeli citizens of Arab descent than Jews. A recent poll of young Israelis(under 35) shows that most would like to leave, and most of the majority would like to go to Europe.


Yea. In a few decades all that will remain will be Arabs and the Ultraorthodox Jews.
 
2013-01-10 11:55:01 AM  

Crewmannumber6: Correct me if I'm wrong, but when Israel was established after WWII, The USA was against it and was outvoted. How did we end up holding that bag of shiat.


Marshall, Forrestal and other military men in Trumans cainet were thoroughly disgusted with Trumans decision.
 
2013-01-10 11:56:19 AM  
a.abcnews.com

www.thetimes.co.uk

i.dailymail.co.uk

To be fair, Palin's support for turkey was pretty thin.
 
2013-01-10 11:56:34 AM  

Dr Dreidel: It's so nice to see that "Jews are rich bankers who control the world's economy" is still a thing people believe.

// not all of you
// but enough that I occasionally want to move back to Israel
// paranoia strikes deep...


Let's see, Jacob Lew is an Orthodox Jew. Then there's Ben Bernanke..... Krugman ....oh and Blankenfien. Basically, people from an ethnic group comprising 2% of the population set monetary policy for the rest of us. You don't think that's a bit .....odd?  Would it be hateful to comment on this if they were ethnic Koreans instead?
 
2013-01-10 11:57:02 AM  

Epoch_Zero: Your Silence is Killing Kurds: Israel is a US ally. Israel is opposed by the same people who oppose America. Israel is under ongoing threat. That is why the questions are germane



I don't see how germanium hydrate fits into this


images.gizmag.com
 
2013-01-10 11:57:53 AM  

Amos Quito: The goal of the (largely secular) Zionists in creating the "Jewish State" was not to protect Jews from "anti-Semitism", but to prevent Jews from assimilation.


Also from world leaders up and deciding that Jews (in general, or perhaps one group or person in particular) were a nuisance and were no longer required. Over the last 1,000 years, Jews were expelled from pretty much every country in Europe - twice. In the last 50 years, half - HALF! - of Jews in Europe were killed by the state, 2/3 of Polish Jews (where the bulk of the European community was) gone. Untold thousands of relics from pretty much every part of Jewish history over the last 2,000 years were destroyed, burned, looted or otherwise made unavailable.

But no. Jews don't need anything like a homeland - we have the US, for god's sake! A nation whose leaders have believed that Jews killed Jesus, engaged in blood libels (not to mention the virulent anti-Semitism displayed both by officials in government and slack-jawed yokels alike against Werner Brandeis, Caspar Weinberger, and pretty much any Jew in government until at least 1980 - hell, Dick Nixon was a RAGING anti-Semite, slagging his enemies as "damn Jews" on tape), support Israel so Jews can DIAF pre-Jesus and pay lip-service to the "Judeo"-Christian founding of the country by ignoring our religious heritage (California's proposed circumcision ban, for example).

I'd prefer it if it wasn't needed (the same way I'd prefer it if no country had an official religion), and I'm presenting worst-case scenarios (so no, I don't expect Holocaust 2 to hit the US' shores anytime soon), but you'd have to be some kind of idiot to not recognize why an ethnic group with a history described by scholars as "the shiat end of the stick" (apologies to Jon Stewart) should have a place to call home, even if it's on the other side of the world.
 
2013-01-10 11:57:59 AM  

Diogenes: Gulper Eel: Altair: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

and here we go...

Well, okay, I forgot that a few years back the Danes were ready to start some shiat with Canada over that rock up near Greenland. Thankfully, diplomacy prevailed and we were spared the horrors of the Poutine/Lego War of 2005.

Cute.

But I love how for all the hewing and crying over our sovereignty with regard to the UN, we seem to be ready to sacrifice it for Israel without question or hesitation.


So much THIS. If we are a soveriegn nation, then we owe nothing to the UN or to Israel, and that's exactly how it should be. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to work with them, but we don't owe them anything.
 
2013-01-10 11:58:06 AM  

T-Servo: [a.abcnews.com image 640x360]

[www.thetimes.co.uk image 780x520]

[i.dailymail.co.uk image 468x334]

To be fair, Palin's support for turkey was pretty thin.


HEE HEE!
 
2013-01-10 11:58:20 AM  

vernonFL: I am a Zionist, I believe the Jewish people should have their own country.


And I am the 21st century, and I have made the decision to leave all the countries based on religious national identities back in the 19th century where they belong.

White people shouldn't get a special country limited only to white people. Christians shouldn't get a special country limited only to Christians. And Jews shouldn't get a special country limited only to Jews. Religious nationalism is a 19th century concept that has been rejected by the world. We want the Muslims to stop doing it. We want the Christians to stop doing it. And we want the Jews to stop doing it, too.

I believe that all countries should allow all residents to fully participate in the society of that country. Everyone votes, everyone has an equal right to travel, everyone has an equal right to commerce, etc. Israel has reached a tipping point. Either they can make the residents of the West Bank and Gaza into full and free Israeli citizens, with all the rights given to every Israeli citizen, or they can give the residents of West Bank and Gaza full and complete autonomy to form their own country.
 
2013-01-10 11:58:54 AM  

Your Silence is Killing Kurds: Israel is a US ally. Israel is opposed by the same people who oppose America. Israel is under ongoing threat. That is why the questions are germane


The people who oppose Israel oppose the USA because we bankroll and run interference for Israel. Israel is under threat because it dispossessed people of their land, and continues to do so on a daily basis, based on a claim that god gave them the land. You think that would win them popularity contests anywhere in the world??
 
2013-01-10 11:59:14 AM  

FlashHarry: imontheinternet: qualtrough: Are there any historical precedents for a tiny nation exerting so much influence over both the internal and external policies of an almost infinitely larger and more powerful nation?

The Vatican and Dark Ages European kingdoms.

geographically speaking, england was pretty small, yet it famously ruled much of the globe for most of the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries.


Japan also has a tremendous amount of wealth and influence for such a small land with so few resources, relatively speaking.
 
2013-01-10 11:59:25 AM  

qualtrough: Serious question for the historians and political scientists here (if any):

Are there any historical precedents for a tiny nation exerting so much influence over both the internal and external policies of an almost infinitely larger and more powerful nation?



Possibly the Dutch Republics during the reign of Phillip II of the Holy Roman Empire, though the relationship was very different.
 
2013-01-10 11:59:47 AM  

T-Servo: To be fair, Palin's support for turkey was pretty thin.


Your newsletter, I'd like to subscribe to it.
 
2013-01-10 12:00:16 PM  
Perhaps it's time to admit that Israel was a mistake.

We've got lots of land in Wyoming and Alaska, either relocate for free, or handle your problems on your own.
 
2013-01-10 12:00:42 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: Vectron: Young Jewish liberals don't believe AIPAC really exists (its a fictional conspiracy cabal dreamed up by deluded anti-semites). Congress votes the way it does because of all those knuckle dragging End of Times Christians.

No, really, this is what they believe!

[westernrifleshooters.files.wordpress.com image 331x270]

Nice of you to let people know what they believe.



Hey lookee!


Snort: This has nothing to do with Israel and everything to do with setting up the conditions for the Second Coming.

Support for Israel only goes as far as seeing them burn in the Apocalypse.

 
2013-01-10 12:00:45 PM  

Epoch_Zero: Your Silence is Killing Kurds: Israel is a US ally. Israel is opposed by the same people who oppose America. Israel is under ongoing threat. That is why the questions are germane

[upload.wikimedia.org image 200x162]

I don't see how germanium hydrate fits into this



A pic of Buford T. Justice would go well about now.


/you sounded taller on the radio
 
2013-01-10 12:01:53 PM  
Funny, no response. I'll ask again--how many of you "pro-Israel" Farkers here would fully support an Israeli government that demolished settlements and even partitioned Jerusalem?
 
2013-01-10 12:03:00 PM  

give me doughnuts: Resupply port for the 6th Fleet. Logistical and maintenance support for other U.S. forces in the Middle East. Joint training exercises. Technical collaberation on weapons systems.


I thought we were talking about Israel and not Saudi Arabia.
 
2013-01-10 12:04:16 PM  
The worst part of this absolutist Pro-Israel position that most of the establishment and politicians take is that it makes Israel less secure, because it allows it to pursue idiotic policies that undermine their own security. Israel's refusal to negotiate in good faith with the Palestinians to settle the issues of demarcating borders and and establishing an agreement they can all live with, means that Israel continues to face an uncertain insecure future. This, even as the whole region is going through tumultuous that in the long run can benefit Israel. For decades, many strong men, despite helping the US in keeping the peace with Israel, encouraged a "blame Israel" attitude to give their people an outlet for their frustrations. Yet now, as countries turn more democratic, Israel through its actions, is helping to promote the firebrands by instigating these newly democratizing populations against it.

Take Syria and Egypt for example. Israel was one of the main forces pushing the Obama administration to not recognize the uprisings as they liked having Mubarak and Assad in power, because they were known quantities. You can't win a people over, if you are pushing for them to remain under the thumb of their oppressive regimes. To boot, Israel and Saudi Arabia were on the same side on keeping Mubarak in Egypt, even as they have differed on Assad. Many in Israel's own security services see the dangers of the policies being pursued by Likud and how Israel faces further isolation thanks to their actions, and many, including the former head of the security services have come out against Netanyahu for this very reason, yet here in the US, we continue to equate support for Israel with support for Likud's political policies, hurting Israel's chances for peace and security in the long run.
 
2013-01-10 12:04:17 PM  

ITGreen: Gulper Eel: God Is My Co-Pirate: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

Well, France.

They have enough hot women that they can stay. Besides, nobody wants a giant Luxembourg.

Canada's got some damn fine women too.   Ahh, Montreal...


Canada gets the nod for hot Francophone women.
It's a personal hygiene thing.

/I've been in France.
 
2013-01-10 12:04:23 PM  

Vectron: Let's see, Jacob Lew is an Orthodox Jew. Then there's Ben Bernanke..... Krugman ....oh and Blankenfien. Basically, people from an ethnic group comprising 2% of the population set monetary policy for the rest of us. You don't think that's a bit .....odd? Would it be hateful to comment on this if they were ethnic Koreans instead?


If you're seriously telling me that the same group that counts Eric Cantor and George Soros, Noam Chomsky and Henry Kissinger, Jon Stewart and Jonah Goldberg as members can do ANYTHING without collapsing into a pile of dysfunction, I suspect you may not have thought things through. Even if we limited it only to those Jews sitting on boards, you'd have as hard a time convincing them to do anything as a group that you'd have with convincing the rest of them.

And no, it's not odd. Jews have a looooooooooooooooooong history of prizing education, family/community cohesion (sometimes forced), and social justice. That combines to form a group that holds too many degrees (HS, college and post-grad) and positions of power for its size. So the rest of you step up your games, rather than believe Jews are just better than you.

// we're not
// and we're not any more or less cohesive, as an international group, than Muslims or white people
 
2013-01-10 12:04:41 PM  

Vectron: Dr Dreidel: It's so nice to see that "Jews are rich bankers who control the world's economy" is still a thing people believe.

// not all of you
// but enough that I occasionally want to move back to Israel
// paranoia strikes deep...

Let's see, Jacob Lew is an Orthodox Jew. Then there's Ben Bernanke..... Krugman ....oh and Blankenfien. Basically, people from an ethnic group comprising 2% of the population set monetary policy for the rest of us. You don't think that's a bit .....odd?  Would it be hateful to comment on this if they were ethnic Koreans instead?


forums.digitalpoint.com
 
2013-01-10 12:05:17 PM  

people: Crewmannumber6: Correct me if I'm wrong, but when Israel was established after WWII, The USA was against it and was outvoted. How did we end up holding that bag of shiat.

Marshall, Forrestal and other military men in Trumans cainet were thoroughly disgusted with Trumans decision.



I read that a man named Abe Feinberg gave Truman two-million dollar cash bribe ($100 bills) for his campaign to recognize Israel.

Apparently the FBI knew about this.
 
2013-01-10 12:05:47 PM  

The Larch: Either they can make the residents of the West Bank and Gaza into full and free Israeli citizens, with all the rights given to every Israeli citizen, or they can give the residents of West Bank and Gaza full and complete autonomy to form their own country.


Thank you for summing up the last 2 intifadas and the entire Israel/Palestine debate. If only leadership knew that these were options!
 
2013-01-10 12:06:08 PM  
When 81 congressmen visit Canada, Turkey, or France during a three-week period, I'll get exercised.
Meanwhile, call corruption where you see it.

/Jewish money owns your government like a boss.
 
2013-01-10 12:07:35 PM  
fark Israel. And fark the Palestinians too. Let the desert savages slaughter each other, they don't need one farking dime from us.
 
2013-01-10 12:07:36 PM  

vernonFL: I am a Zionist, I believe the Jewish people should have their own country.

That being said, Israel today is a shameful apartheid state and I don't want my money supporting the current Israeli regime.


Agreed on the apartheid part for sure, and kudos to you: admitting that about the Israeli regime as a Zionist takes a certain level of integrity that is sorely lacking in the larger discussion of the issue...Especially in the US.

The question I would ask is how an explicitly Jewish state (or a state that officially seeks to engineer ANY ethno-religious majority within its bailiwick) won't inevitably turn apartheid in the long run? Once the demographic reality on the ground turns against the policy, apartheid returns--otherwise the policy is meaningless, no?
 
2013-01-10 12:08:02 PM  

Dr Dreidel: In the last 50 years, half - HALF! - of Jews in Europe were killed by the state


Ummm, wheat was this?
 
2013-01-10 12:08:42 PM  

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


Clever place to let the British put your country, innit it?
 
2013-01-10 12:08:55 PM  

qualtrough: Your Silence is Killing Kurds: Israel is a US ally. Israel is opposed by the same people who oppose America. Israel is under ongoing threat. That is why the questions are germane

The people who oppose Israel oppose the USA because we bankroll and run interference for Israel. Israel is under threat because it dispossessed people of their land, and continues to do so on a daily basis, based on a claim that god gave them the land. You think that would win them popularity contests anywhere in the world??


At some level yes, but at some level no. The first rule of politics is to create some 'other.' To much of the world America is that other, with or without Israel
 
2013-01-10 12:09:27 PM  

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


Done in 1.
 
2013-01-10 12:12:05 PM  
At what point did "supporting an ally" involve pissing contests over who would go the *furthest* in their unquestioning support of said ally?

I mean, there's a real difference between telling some goons that you'll kick their ass if they pick on your little brother, and sitting there silently while he then goes about *picking* fights and generally acting like a raging asshole, just to see how far he can push people with his big brother backing him up.

Let's remember that neither Hagel, nor Obama before him, dared say *anything* remotely un-supportive of Israel. They probably should have, but never did, so much as say "if you *pick the fight* yourself, you can fight it yourself." They never even suggested that maybe we should tell our little brother to dial it down. To stop screwing with people we both promised to not provoke.

No, they are being politically attacked for so much as suggesting that it is *possible* for our little brother to use our support incorrectly. That it's *possible* for him to be in the wrong. That it's *possible* for him to get us into fights that no-one wants or needs and that will just ensure more trouble down the line. Not that they're on that path. Not that we're at that point. Just that it's *possible*.

And they're being shouted down and bullied away from raising the possibility, for suggesting that we need to consider our support and interactions in the context of that possibility, with an argument tantamount to "why do you *hate* your little brother?"
 
2013-01-10 12:12:38 PM  

Vectron: people: Crewmannumber6: Correct me if I'm wrong, but when Israel was established after WWII, The USA was against it and was outvoted. How did we end up holding that bag of shiat.

Marshall, Forrestal and other military men in Trumans cainet were thoroughly disgusted with Trumans decision.


I read that a man named Abe Feinberg gave Truman two-million dollar cash bribe ($100 bills) for his campaign to recognize Israel.

Apparently the FBI knew about this.


t3.gstatic.com
 
2013-01-10 12:12:55 PM  

ThatGuyFromTheInternet: Dr Dreidel: In the last 50 years, half - HALF! - of Jews in Europe were killed by the state

Ummm, wheat was this?


Maybe he copypasta'd from a 1995 webpage?
 
2013-01-10 12:13:22 PM  

HAMMERTOE: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

Done in 1.


Done what, derping?
 
2013-01-10 12:13:44 PM  

zarberg: T-Servo: To be fair, Palin's support for turkey was pretty thin.

Your newsletter, I'd like to subscribe to it.


Turkey should feel lucky Palin didn't try to shoot them, having heard they taste good.
 
2013-01-10 12:13:45 PM  

Vectron: I read that a man named Abe Feinberg gave Truman two-million dollar cash bribe ($100 bills) for his campaign to recognize Israel.

Apparently the FBI knew about this.


My mind is rusty. Who wrote about this? Edwin Black or Israel Shahak?
 
2013-01-10 12:13:45 PM  

BravadoGT: America led the UN in establishing Israel.  They are family.


We are family
I got all my shiksas with me
We are family
Get up all you goyim and sing


/sorry
 
2013-01-10 12:14:18 PM  

Diogenes: But I love how for all the hewing and crying over our sovereignty with regard to the UN, we seem to be ready to sacrifice it for Israel without question or hesitation


How are we ready to sacrifice sovereignty for Israel?

Amos Quito: The goal of the (largely secular) Zionists in creating the "Jewish State" was not to protect Jews from "anti-Semitism", but to prevent Jews from assimilation.


Yeah what happened in WWII wasn't assimilation, but thanks for playing.

/looking forward to your derp about it being their fault.
 
2013-01-10 12:14:37 PM  

Dr Dreidel: no, it's not odd. Jews have a looooooooooooooooooong history of prizing education, family/community cohesion (sometimes forced), and social justice. That combines to form a group that holds too many degrees (HS, college and post-grad) and positions of power for its size. So the rest of you step up your games, rather than believe Jews are just better than you.


just sayin': Ethnic minorities shouldn't challenge the majorities. It hasn't worked too well for you.
 
2013-01-10 12:14:50 PM  
A quote by a racist who agrees with wiping israel off the face of the earth... and people wonder why 8 million people need our support? Subby is a good dhimmi
 
2013-01-10 12:16:41 PM  
Incog_Neeto: They help us by attempting to meddle in our elections while at the same time making any diplomacy in the middle east about a million times more difficult. We are the battered wife in a dysfunctional relationship with an unemployed plumber who is a giant douchbag to everyone on the block.

If you can't find this later, it's because I stole it.
 
2013-01-10 12:16:58 PM  

Diogenes: Gulper Eel: Altair: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

and here we go...

Well, okay, I forgot that a few years back the Danes were ready to start some shiat with Canada over that rock up near Greenland. Thankfully, diplomacy prevailed and we were spared the horrors of the Poutine/Lego War of 2005.

Cute.

But I love how for all the hewing and crying over our sovereignty with regard to the UN, we seem to be ready to sacrifice it for Israel without question or hesitation.


There ought to be some level of concern over Israel from the US - there would be no Israel without the US/UK/other WWII Allies, so there is an implied responsibility there - just not the level of concern currently present.
 
2013-01-10 12:17:32 PM  
Both should be required reading for all Israel threads:

1 ) "How To Support Israel Without Being Racist"

2) "How To Criticize Israel Without Being Anti-Semitic"
 
2013-01-10 12:17:48 PM  

RandomRandom: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

So Farking What. Yes, Israel has some puny, insignificant enemies, so do we. Just like us, Israel has nukes. No Arab nation is crazy enough to actually invade them again. No one needs to fear for Israel's continued existence.

Iran you say? No, the Iranian leadership isn't insane. Even if they had nukes they wouldn't nuke Israel. They're typical, pragmatic dictators who've wrapped themselves in whatever shroud was most convenient. In this case, the shroud is fundamentalist Islam. Hitler wasn't really about fascism, he was about power. Stalin wasn't really about communism, he was about power. Iran's mullahs aren't really about Islam, they're about Power. Even the craziest dictators fully realize the ramifications of mutually assured destruction. For proof of that, we need only look to best Korea.

Israel is not a good ally for the United States. Israel does almost nothing to benefit the United States, quite the opposite in fact. Much of the hatred of the US is based on Israeli apartheid of the Palestinians
.
You've provided some good examples of fine US allies. Canada, France and Turkey pull their weight. They're good, solid allies to the US. Israel is not, Israel is a drag on the US. I'm not saying they need to be dumped as an ally, but we do need to cut them loose financially. Israel hasn't needed our financial help in decades, but they continue to receive BILLIONS in US tax payers money each and every year. Fark independents looking for a some budget items to start cutting - how about the 3 to 6 billion dollars (depending on if you count loan guarantees) we give to Israel each and every farking year.


Maybe take a look at Pakistan. A country which is only an ally by a big stretch, which if not actively supporting terrorism, certainly seems to approve of it, and receives significantly more aid.
 
2013-01-10 12:18:18 PM  

tallguywithglasseson: Interesting tidbit, from link in TFA, Elliott Abrams from the Council on Foreign Relations went all in on NPR and said Hagel is an anti-Semite. That's what you get for not supporting "our" family.

http://mondoweiss.net/2013/01/elliott-abrams-semite.html


" I listened to the comments from Mr. Abrams with an increasing sense of incredulity. As he attacked Mr. Hagel for being soft on Iran, I could not help but remember that Mr. Abrams himself conspired with others in the Reagan administration to sell US missiles secretly to Iran, in violation of US law."
 
2013-01-10 12:18:56 PM  

Vectron: Hey lookee!


Snort: This has nothing to do with Israel and everything to do with setting up the conditions for the Second Coming.

Support for Israel only goes as far as seeing them burn in the Apocalypse.


#1 That statement is not mutually exclusive with what you said that Jewish Liberals believe
#2 You don't know that anyone here is a "Jewish Liberal" from anything they say even on their account profile


#3 The Elders of Zion are putting you on a list somewhere.
 
2013-01-10 12:19:19 PM  
The current clowns running the show in Israel certainly make it difficult to support them. It's like the 5 year old who goes around picking fights because he knows his big brother will step in and back him up.
 
2013-01-10 12:19:33 PM  

SixPaperJoint: I got all my shiksas with me


upload.wikimedia.org

Approves.
 
2013-01-10 12:20:16 PM  

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


Tell that to the people of Turkey who were attacked by Iraqi Kurds, the Syrian military, and Iran trying to overthrow them on their Eastern border. I would say Turkey go through as much junk as Israel does, and what more they are an actual NATO member, but we still don't go on about the need to save Turkey everyday.
 
2013-01-10 12:20:16 PM  

The Larch: pag1107: You guys are all way off base, it has way more to do with pandering to a religious group for votes than actually protecting any other nations.

Exactly. Evangelical Christians are a paranoid death cult that are praying for the day that their messiah to comes back and destroys the world. And somehow, they're convinced that by supporting Israel, they will convince their crazy and capricious god to being the complete and total annihilation of the world a little earlier.

It is sad that American politics are so heavily influenced by a delusional warlike death cult, but there you go. You have to live with reality.


This is very true. I know some of these people.

Now I'm on my phone trying to avoid the

Broken glass, broken glass, broken glass, broken glass..

/still the best birthday I ever had
 
2013-01-10 12:20:38 PM  
It's a state based on religion, so how about Vatican City?

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


So Israel is like South Vietnam?
 
2013-01-10 12:20:39 PM  
Thanks for the Iraq war, AIPAC!!!

BTW: we didn't find any WMDs, but at least you got what you wanted like a good JAP.
 
2013-01-10 12:20:58 PM  

ringersol: At what point did "supporting an ally" involve pissing contests over who would go the *furthest* in their unquestioning support of said ally?


Exactly.  Discussions about Israel in the US tend to devolve into rational  "Israel has a right to exist" arguments versus "Jews control the world" derp, but that's missing the issue entirely.  The issue is not the fact that the US and Israel are allies; it's the unprecedented level of deference to Israel on matters of policy.  Friends don't always have to be on the same page on every issue, and all Americans, including elected leaders, should be as free to criticize Israel as Israeli leaders are free to criticize the US.
 
2013-01-10 12:21:34 PM  

Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: The current clowns running the show in Israel certainly make it difficult to support them. It's like the 5 year old who goes around picking fights because he knows his big brother will step in and back him up.


So self defense is now picking fights? You are either retarded, dhimmi, or both.
 
2013-01-10 12:21:38 PM  
We should have given them Winnipeg instead of Palestine. Seriously, no one in Canada or anywhere else would miss Winnipeg, much less fight over it.
 
2013-01-10 12:21:48 PM  

Joe Blowme: Subby is a good dhimmi


DRINK!
 
2013-01-10 12:23:26 PM  

give me doughnuts: Somacandra: give me doughnuts: If they could finally push all the Egyptian and Jordanian squatters

[i.imgur.com image 400x251]
I doubt it. The vast majority of people there, generations after generation are descended from the people that lived there under Ottoman regional rule--known as Palestinians.Deporting the few with Jordanian or Egyptian citizenship wouldn't help.


Until 1988, the non-Israeli residents of the West Bank were Jordanian citizens, but instead of letting them into the rest of country when Jordan relenquished its claim, the government instead stripped those people of their citizenship.


The other arab nations have behaved in similiar fashion over the years. While Israel's treatment of the Palestinians leaves a lot to be desrelyingired (to say the least), the various arab states in the area have continually exacerbated the problem while using the palestinian population to be a constant potential causus belli.
 
2013-01-10 12:24:19 PM  

Banned on the Run: pag1107: You guys are all way off base, it has way more to do with pandering to a religious group for votes than actually protecting any other nations.

[i216.photobucket.com image 450x600]

Obama got 69% of the Jewish vote.
It must not be working.


That's because the tea party didn't have enough signs showing Obama with a Hitler mustache, well that or those wiley jews were smarter than the tea party thought.
 
2013-01-10 12:24:29 PM  
OK, bottom-line it for me, folks.

How do we get to the point where all of us can just stop hearing about and giving a rat's ass about this tiny, obnoxious nation half a world away? Just tell me what it takes, because I've had enough of this shiat.

Spell it out for me. Because I am being asked to care about this shiat waaaaaaaaayy too often now. And I need it to stop.
 
2013-01-10 12:24:51 PM  
Never seen a thread like this one before. I wonder where it will go...
1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-01-10 12:25:13 PM  
C'mon, people. Humor me. Are you supporting Israel or supporting Bibi? If the government of Israel did an about-face on its policies towards the Palestinians and the two-state solution, would you be happy about that? Why or why not?
 
2013-01-10 12:26:14 PM  

Somacandra: Both should be required reading for all Israel threads:

1 ) "How To Support Israel Without Being Racist"

2) "How To Criticize Israel Without Being Anti-Semitic"


Blocked at work. hmmm, I wonder why.
 
2013-01-10 12:26:30 PM  

limeyfellow: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

Tell that to the people of Turkey who were attacked by Iraqi Kurds, the Syrian military, and Iran trying to overthrow them on their Eastern border. I would say Turkey go through as much junk as Israel does, and what more they are an actual NATO member, but we still don't go on about the need to save Turkey everyday.


They were attacked mostly buy their own Kurds, and the Iraqi Kurds didn;t have backing of their country during those attacks.

Syria lobbed, what 5 mortars in this conflict (if you are talking about something earlier, please correct me).

Not really familiar with Iran "trying to overthrow" them, but I am pretty sure whatever you are alluding to sin't a threat to "wipe them out".
 
2013-01-10 12:26:58 PM  
You know the best part about Israel thread?

Getting to watch the anti-Muslim neocon wingnuts and the anti-Semitic paleocon wingnuts argue and eat each other.

3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-01-10 12:27:12 PM  

Banned on the Run: pag1107: You guys are all way off base, it has way more to do with pandering to a religious group for votes than actually protecting any other nations.

[i216.photobucket.com image 450x600]

Obama got 69% of the Jewish vote.
It must not be working.


Christian Voters, not Jewish ones.
 
2013-01-10 12:27:55 PM  

factoryconnection: Okay, since I'm too lazy to dig but still care to know, is Hagel's Jewish position:

A. He supports giving them money and materiel consistently, but is offended that such a tiny minority holds so much sway that any criticism of any action of Israel (settlement building, slum bombardment, etc...) is off limits

OR

B. He supports giving them money and materiel consistently, but they're still damn, dirty Jews that run Hollywood and have ruined everything.

I know he's supported them with legislation, it is the "Israel critic" versus "I hate Jews" position that needs clarification for me.


I figure that now, with some chatty Jewish folks onboard I might get an intelligent answer to this question.
 
2013-01-10 12:28:02 PM  
Can't we just give the jews some casinos or something...
 
2013-01-10 12:28:36 PM  

Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: The current clowns running the show in Israel certainly make it difficult to support them.

i.imgur.com


Especially when Bibi appears in an American election campaign ad. The current administration there enjoys being dickish for its own sake, as commenters in Israeli media have pointed out. Nobody likes Bibi but they all hate his rivals even more.

 
2013-01-10 12:29:14 PM  

ThatGuyFromTheInternet: Dr Dreidel: In the last 50 years, half - HALF! - of Jews in Europe were killed by the state

Ummm, wheat was this?


Heh. 60. My math needs updating (in HS, I got used to the "50 years" formulation). Sue me.

// I'm a Jew, you'll never win
 
2013-01-10 12:29:42 PM  

theorellior: C'mon, people. Humor me. Are you supporting Israel or supporting Bibi? If the government of Israel did an about-face on its policies towards the Palestinians and the two-state solution, would you be happy about that? Why or why not?


What would an "about face" entail if they aren't doing much towards/against that goal?

/not a fan of Bibi
 
2013-01-10 12:29:53 PM  

Epoch_Zero: Your Silence is Killing Kurds: Israel is a US ally. Israel is opposed by the same people who oppose America. Israel is under ongoing threat. That is why the questions are germane



I don't see how germanium hydrate fits into this


That's germanium hydride. Hydrates imply water.
 
2013-01-10 12:30:24 PM  

JusticeandIndependence: Blocked at work. hmmm, I wonder why.


It happens to be on Tumblr. Commonly blocked at a lot of workplaces due to excessive lolcats
 
2013-01-10 12:30:48 PM  

qualtrough: Your Silence is Killing Kurds: Israel is a US ally. Israel is opposed by the same people who oppose America. Israel is under ongoing threat. That is why the questions are germane

The people who oppose Israel oppose the USA because we bankroll and run interference for Israel. Israel is under threat because it dispossessed people of their land, and continues to do so on a daily basis, based on a claim that god gave them the land. You think that would win them popularity contests anywhere in the world??


Simple and to the point, I approve.

How many other allied nations have had spies in the US as well?  I mean, maybe Granholm was just a really good Canadian spy that we never caught, but someone feel free to tell me Canadian, French, Turkish recent history spies that have been caught in the US.

Israel is our ally, and someone who is against its continued existence probably wouldn't be a good choice diplomatically.  But a two state solution != Israel has no right to exist, and I am so goddamn sick of this.  It's almost as bad as the gun debate.  Try to actually have a discussion and instead everyone responds with hysteria.
 
2013-01-10 12:33:16 PM  

Shadow writer: The worst part of this absolutist Pro-Israel position that most of the establishment and politicians take is that it makes Israel less secure, because it allows it to pursue idiotic policies that undermine their own security. Israel's refusal to negotiate in good faith with the Palestinians to settle the issues of demarcating borders and and establishing an agreement they can all live with, means that Israel continues to face an uncertain insecure future. This, even as the whole region is going through tumultuous that in the long run can benefit Israel. For decades, many strong men, despite helping the US in keeping the peace with Israel, encouraged a "blame Israel" attitude to give their people an outlet for their frustrations. Yet now, as countries turn more democratic, Israel through its actions, is helping to promote the firebrands by instigating these newly democratizing populations against it.

Take Syria and Egypt for example. Israel was one of the main forces pushing the Obama administration to not recognize the uprisings as they liked having Mubarak and Assad in power, because they were known quantities. You can't win a people over, if you are pushing for them to remain under the thumb of their oppressive regimes. To boot, Israel and Saudi Arabia were on the same side on keeping Mubarak in Egypt, even as they have differed on Assad. Many in Israel's own security services see the dangers of the policies being pursued by Likud and how Israel faces further isolation thanks to their actions, and many, including the former head of the security services have come out against Netanyahu for this very reason, yet here in the US, we continue to equate support for Israel with support for Likud's political policies, hurting Israel's chances for peace and security in the long run.


Good analysis. Currently Israel has a right wing hard core government, but that will change.
 
2013-01-10 12:33:37 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Amos Quito: The goal of the (largely secular) Zionists in creating the "Jewish State" was not to protect Jews from "anti-Semitism", but to prevent Jews from assimilation.

Also from world leaders up and deciding that Jews (in general, or perhaps one group or person in particular) were a nuisance and were no longer required. Over the last 1,000 years, Jews were expelled from pretty much every country in Europe - twice. In the last 50 years, half - HALF! - of Jews in Europe were killed by the state, 2/3 of Polish Jews (where the bulk of the European community was) gone. Untold thousands of relics from pretty much every part of Jewish history over the last 2,000 years were destroyed, burned, looted or otherwise made unavailable.

But no. Jews don't need anything like a homeland - we have the US, for god's sake! A nation whose leaders have believed that Jews killed Jesus, engaged in blood libels (not to mention the virulent anti-Semitism displayed both by officials in government and slack-jawed yokels alike against Werner Brandeis, Caspar Weinberger, and pretty much any Jew in government until at least 1980 - hell, Dick Nixon was a RAGING anti-Semite, slagging his enemies as "damn Jews" on tape), support Israel so Jews can DIAF pre-Jesus and pay lip-service to the "Judeo"-Christian founding of the country by ignoring our religious heritage (California's proposed circumcision ban, for example).

I'd prefer it if it wasn't needed (the same way I'd prefer it if no country had an official religion), and I'm presenting worst-case scenarios (so no, I don't expect Holocaust 2 to hit the US' shores anytime soon), but you'd have to be some kind of idiot to not recognize why an ethnic group with a history described by scholars as "the shiat end of the stick" (apologies to Jon Stewart) should have a place to call home, even if it's on the other side of the world.


It's a very understandable impulse, but when you look at the overall history of the world there are groups that have suffered similarly (the Hmong being a good example) you'll notice that this habit of cloistering ourselves off over our differences like ethnicity or religion is exactly the sort of thinking that lead to the Jews being expelled from various nations throughout history
 
2013-01-10 12:34:46 PM  

Somacandra: Both should be required reading for all Israel threads:

1 ) "How To Support Israel Without Being Racist"

2) "How To Criticize Israel Without Being Anti-Semitic"


1) Avoid making blanket statements about Palestinians.
2) Avoid making blanket statements about Jews.

// 3) avoid shiat-stirrers who muddy the debate by claiming (or referencing the claim) that support/criticism of Israel is racist/anti-Semitic. If you can point to specific policies or actions and outline your support/criticism independent of ethnic/racial suppositions, you're golden.
 
2013-01-10 12:35:19 PM  

imontheinternet: Friends don't always have to be on the same page on every issue, and all Americans, including elected leaders, should be as free to criticize Israel as Israeli leaders are free to criticize the US.


The level of criticism directed against Israeli policy in Israel's own mass media would never be tolerated in the USA. Seriously. People there are much freer to criticize policy without being labeled 'left fascist anti-semites' or whatever. Even fierce criticisms from Lebanese policy analysts get published in Yedioth Ahronoth.
 
2013-01-10 12:36:03 PM  

give me doughnuts: Zeno-25: [i.imgur.com image 720x540]

They're off by a factor of 10, and almost all of it is spent here, at defense contractors.


Moreover, the delicious irony is that sales of US armaments to Saudi Arabia pays for the whole Israeli-Egypt aid package.
 
2013-01-10 12:38:56 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Avoid making blanket statements about Palestinians...Avoid making blanket statements about Jews.


I think you're have to admit both of these are heavy tasks for a lot of Farkers. Especially because the relationship between philosemitism and antisemitism is historically less than clear.
 
2013-01-10 12:39:02 PM  

Banned on the Run: pag1107: You guys are all way off base, it has way more to do with pandering to a religious group for votes than actually protecting any other nations.

[i216.photobucket.com image 450x600]

Obama got 69% of the Jewish vote.
It must not be working.


I don't think Jewish people are the religious group that he meant. It's the evangelicals, especially the left behinder twerps.
 
2013-01-10 12:39:40 PM  

limeyfellow: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

Tell that to the people of Turkey who were attacked by Iraqi Kurds, the Syrian military, and Iran trying to overthrow them on their Eastern border. I would say Turkey go through as much junk as Israel does, and what more they are an actual NATO member, but we still don't go on about the need to save Turkey everyday.


??? The Kurds are one thing. Syria challenging Turkey? They, like the Iranians might meddle, but nobody's threatening to push them all into the sea.
 
2013-01-10 12:40:06 PM  

Crotchrocket Slim: you'll notice that this habit of cloistering ourselves off over our differences like ethnicity or religion is exactly the sort of thinking that lead to the Jews being expelled from various nations throughout history


And if only black people had moved to white communities and stopped all the jive talk?

Sorry, no. In modern times, self-segregation is not really a problem (KJ, communities in Israel notwithstanding). In the past, Jews were not so much self-segregated as ghettoized. The notion of "secular Jewry" - where you're not observant, but still in the community - was largely absent before the 1700s. You were either a member in good standing, or no longer part of the community.
 
2013-01-10 12:40:07 PM  

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


Israel is not entirely blameless in that. They might have started off as victims, but right now they're a mix of victim and perpetrator, and goddamn are they assholes about it.

/Just like everyone else in the region. They adapted so well.
 
2013-01-10 12:40:26 PM  

Albert911emt:

So much THIS. If we are a soveriegn nation, then we owe nothing to the UN or to Israel, and that's exactly how it should be. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to work with them, but we don't owe them anything.


What the hell does this mean? Sovereign nations are not obligated to honor the arrangements they freely entered into with other sovereign nations?
 
2013-01-10 12:41:19 PM  

Antimatter: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

Israel has nukes. No one is going to wipe them off the map anytime soon.

Furthermore, this isn't our problem. We only support Israel because bronze age death cultists think it's necessary in order to have the second coming and the end of days.


Oh, those Christian folks are hummin' Cuz they say their God is Comin'.
Well, our God's come two times tonight...And Our Goddess at least three.
 
2013-01-10 12:42:02 PM  

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


Perhaps you aren't familiar with Turkish history. Not so much at risk these days, but yea... everyone has attacked Turkey, even their allies. France is in this boat too.

Furthermore, commitment to France WAS an issue less than 100 years ago. However, in that case people were allowed to be on both sides, unlike now.
 
2013-01-10 12:43:36 PM  

Dr Dreidel: ThatGuyFromTheInternet: Dr Dreidel: In the last 50 years, half - HALF! - of Jews in Europe were killed by the state

Ummm, wheat was this?

Heh. 60. My math needs updating (in HS, I got used to the "50 years" formulation). Sue me.

// I'm a Jew, you'll never win


That doesn't justify Israel's land grab. Just saying, if you tried that defense in court you'd be laughed out in five minutes.
 
2013-01-10 12:45:04 PM  

Somacandra: imontheinternet: Friends don't always have to be on the same page on every issue, and all Americans, including elected leaders, should be as free to criticize Israel as Israeli leaders are free to criticize the US.

The level of criticism directed against Israeli policy in Israel's own mass media would never be tolerated in the USA. Seriously. People there are much freer to criticize policy without being labeled 'left fascist anti-semites' or whatever. Even fierce criticisms from Lebanese policy analysts get published in Yedioth Ahronoth.


I have been accused of being jewish, on Israeli payroll, etc and I think the fear of critisizing Israel in the US is silly.

I don't see it changing from a 3rd rail of politics anytime soon.
 
2013-01-10 12:45:17 PM  

Somacandra: Dr Dreidel: Avoid making blanket statements about Palestinians...Avoid making blanket statements about Jews.

I think you're have to admit both of these are heavy tasks for a lot of Farkers. Especially because the relationship between philosemitism and antisemitism is historically less than clear.


If those are heavy tasks, Doc, maybe stop posting for a while (not you, anyone for whom that would be a problem). I actually think it's #3 that trips most people up. You'll notice them in the threads as the people rhetorically throwing up their hands and saying "We can't criticize Israel or the Jews will hate us and make us feel bad for the Holocaust. AGAIN." or "Stupid Americans don't realize that EVIL MUSLIMS are the ones hurting our BFF Izzy for no reason 'tall."

Can we agree to leave those strawmen in the Boobieses and then never bring them up again in-thread?
 
2013-01-10 12:46:49 PM  

yeegrek: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

Funny, I've been told countless times by Americans that if not for them, Canada would have been conquered several times over now.


Obligatory

"Yeah, you won, I guess. I don't really care."

"I care SO MUCH."
 
2013-01-10 12:46:56 PM  

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


France?  Come on, Who doesn't want to wipe them off the face of the earth.
 
2013-01-10 12:48:33 PM  

theorellior: C'mon, people. Humor me. Are you supporting Israel or supporting Bibi? If the government of Israel did an about-face on its policies towards the Palestinians and the two-state solution, would you be happy about that? Why or why not?


I'm replying because it's in my genes to not be rude-
Ok, I'm rude sometimes.
But I felt bad for your lonely posts. Most of mine are lonely.

I'm not sure where I stand on Israel.
I think it wasn't their fault that they ended up being given the territory after WWII. Certainly seemed somewhat upstanding and fair, given the situation.

But what they have done since is theirs to own. And some of that stuff is not good. I would love to see a 2-state solution, because I like peace.

/i know my derpy answer wasn't what you were looking for, but there it is.
 
2013-01-10 12:48:45 PM  

Crotchrocket Slim: You're forgetting how useful the IDF is in field testing next generation military hardware etc. I'm sure that at first guilt over letting the Holocaust happen may have played a part in our early foreign policy with them but these days pragmatism (or at least what a lot of policymakers feel is the more pragmatic approach) rules our policy with Israel.


But, under that logic, isn't it *stupid* to develop tech with them given how they just turn around and sell it to the Chinese?
 
2013-01-10 12:48:58 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: That doesn't justify Israel's land grab. Just saying, if you tried that defense in court you'd be laughed out in five minutes.


OK. So? (and it was "The UN's land-grab", followed by "a 6-month war where indigenous people, rather than accept yet another government that wasn't made up of their own, attacked proto-Israel to prevent the UN's partition plan from being realized, then when they lost proceeded to whine about it rather than attempt to make peace.")

I'm not justifying it objectively, I'm explaining why a homeland (even one, as Herzl first wanted, in what is now Uganda) for ethnic minorities is a jury-rigged solution for a retarded human problem.
 
ows
2013-01-10 12:49:16 PM  

tricycleracer: tricycleracer: the

*they


this
 
2013-01-10 12:49:20 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Amos Quito: The goal of the (largely secular) Zionists in creating the "Jewish State" was not to protect Jews from "anti-Semitism", but to prevent Jews from assimilation.

Also from world leaders up and deciding that Jews (in general, or perhaps one group or person in particular) were a nuisance and were no longer required. Over the last 1,000 years, Jews were expelled from pretty much every country in Europe - twice.



Can you spot the common denominator?


Dr. Dreidel: In the last 50 years, half - HALF! - of Jews in Europe were killed by the state,


Since 1963? Did I miss something?


Dr. Dreidel: 2/3 of Polish Jews (where the bulk of the European community was) gone. Untold thousands of relics from pretty much every part of Jewish history over the last 2,000 years were destroyed, burned, looted or otherwise made unavailable.

But no. Jews don't need anything like a homeland - we have the US, for god's sake! A nation whose leaders have believed that Jews killed Jesus, engaged in blood libels (not to mention the virulent anti-Semitism displayed both by officials in government and slack-jawed yokels alike against Werner Brandeis, Caspar Weinberger, and pretty much any Jew in government until at least 1980 - hell, Dick Nixon was a RAGING anti-Semite, slagging his enemies as "damn Jews" on tape), support Israel so Jews can DIAF pre-Jesus and pay lip-service to the "Judeo"-Christian founding of the country by ignoring our religious heritage (California's proposed circumcision ban, for example).



So how do you feel about the idea of Jews fully assimilating? Hard to "persecute" a "group" that does not self-identify (and self-identification is largely the ONLY identifying characteristic of this particular group)


Dr. Dreidel:   I'd prefer it if it wasn't needed (the same way I'd prefer it if no country had an official religion), and I'm presenting worst-case scenarios (so no, I don't expect Holocaust 2 to hit the US' shores anytime soon), but you'd have to be some kind of idiot to not recognize why an ethnic group with a history described by scholars as "the shiat end of the stick" (apologies to Jon Stewart) should have a place to call home, even if it's on the other side of the world.


Again, find the common denominator.
 
2013-01-10 12:49:33 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Crotchrocket Slim: you'll notice that this habit of cloistering ourselves off over our differences like ethnicity or religion is exactly the sort of thinking that lead to the Jews being expelled from various nations throughout history

And if only black people had moved to white communities and stopped all the jive talk?

Sorry, no. In modern times, self-segregation is not really a problem (KJ, communities in Israel notwithstanding). In the past, Jews were not so much self-segregated as ghettoized. The notion of "secular Jewry" - where you're not observant, but still in the community - was largely absent before the 1700s. You were either a member in good standing, or no longer part of the community.


As a working class white person I wouldn't be welcome in a lot of neighborhoods blacks were "disallowed" from moving into, and as of right now I have a shiatload of African American, Asian, Middle Eastern, and probably a few Jewish neighbors. Economics has always added a further unnecessary stink to these situations; they are not driven entirely by ethnic etc. difference. Notice that the Nazi party only gained traction in Germany* while it was suffering terrible economic woes from WWI and a lot of people just were looking for scapegoats, and of course if you're already self-segregating it's only natural to continue to do so. This was prior to the Nuremberg Acts, Jews were NOT ghettocized in Germany at the time and indeed, you see a lot of writings from this period talking about being a German (citizen) first and being Jewish scond (which inspired a lot the "Eternal Jew" concept that the Third Reich used to justify ethnic cleansing).
 
2013-01-10 12:50:06 PM  

Dr Dreidel: The Larch: Either they can make the residents of the West Bank and Gaza into full and free Israeli citizens, with all the rights given to every Israeli citizen, or they can give the residents of West Bank and Gaza full and complete autonomy to form their own country.

Thank you for summing up the last 2 intifadas and the entire Israel/Palestine debate. If only leadership knew that these were options!


Dude, everybody is already fully and completely aware that those are two of the available options.

But there certainly are other options, of course. For example, one side or the other refuse to enter into any negotiation or discussions and continue living with the current situation forever. Or, one side or the other can commit genocide and systematically eliminate all of their opponents from the face of the earth. Or maybe some third party could come forcibly remove all of the people on one side of the fight, and relocate them all in a new host country.

What I should have said was that those are the only two options that the international community will actually accept as the eventual goal of negotiations, and every single person involved in the negotiations is fully and completely aware of that fact.
 
2013-01-10 12:51:55 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: Crotchrocket Slim: You're forgetting how useful the IDF is in field testing next generation military hardware etc. I'm sure that at first guilt over letting the Holocaust happen may have played a part in our early foreign policy with them but these days pragmatism (or at least what a lot of policymakers feel is the more pragmatic approach) rules our policy with Israel.

But, under that logic, isn't it *stupid* to develop tech with them given how they just turn around and sell it to the Chinese?


Maybe, but only because we could make more money selling our outdated stuff to the Chinese ourselves like we do with everyone else in Asia. I'm wondering if the US might secretly be getting some kind of kickback for that or if there were other arrangements made.
 
2013-01-10 12:52:39 PM  

Amos Quito: Dr Dreidel: Amos Quito: The goal of the (largely secular) Zionists in creating the "Jewish State" was not to protect Jews from "anti-Semitism", but to prevent Jews from assimilation.

Also from world leaders up and deciding that Jews (in general, or perhaps one group or person in particular) were a nuisance and were no longer required. Over the last 1,000 years, Jews were expelled from pretty much every country in Europe - twice.

Can you spot the common denominator?


Jews. It's Jews right? We did it to ourselves?

So how do you feel about the idea of Jews fully assimilating? Hard to "persecute" a "group" that does not self-identify (and self-identification is largely the ONLY identifying characteristic of this particular group)

So if only we lost our history and heritage, we could finally be accepted by the (presumably white American/European) majority? How about "go fark yourself with a side of rice"?

// why are Jews - forget about Israel - the only group not allowed to have its own identity?
// why am I arguing with an anti-Semite?
// why do I allow myself to be dragged into these threads time after time?
 
TWX
2013-01-10 12:52:53 PM  

Somacandra: give me doughnuts: If they could finally push all the Egyptian and Jordanian squatters

[i.imgur.com image 400x251]
I doubt it. The vast majority of people there, generations after generation are descended from the people that lived there under Ottoman regional rule--known as Palestinians.Deporting the few with Jordanian or Egyptian citizenship wouldn't help.


Sometimes I wonder what would happen if Egypt slowly assimilated Gaza and Jordan slowly assimilated the West Bank. Begin with economic investment made favorable by the lower wages for these areas, similar to how the US/Puerto Rico relationship is, and after some economic stability is gained in each respective territory, work toward full citizenship rights in parity with the respective nations, allowing wages to also come into parity with the respective nations, culminating with freedom of movement.

I've seen old maps showing Gaza as part of Egypt and W.B. as part of Transjordan, but those attempts appear to predate these nations' peace treaties with Israel, and it appears that no serious attempts to integrate like that have been tried since those treaties were enacted.
 
2013-01-10 12:53:10 PM  

PsiChick: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

Israel is not entirely blameless in that. They might have started off as victims, but right now they're a mix of victim and perpetrator, and goddamn are they assholes about it.

/Just like everyone else in the region. They adapted so well.


Syria: Hey, Arabs living in Israel, we're gonna go fark em up, wanna help?
Arabs in Israel: Uhhhh. Not really. We kind of like it here and the Jews who just moved in aren't so bad.
Syria: Well gtfo the way then, here we come.
Arabs in Israel: Shiat, I'm getting the fark out of Dodge.
2 months later:
Syria: Oh fark, that was a bad idea, give us our land back?
Israel: Go fark yourselves. No.
Arabs no longer in Israel: Hey, I just wanted you guys to know that we had nothing to do with that mess. Can we come back now?
Israel: You knew they were coming and you didn't warn us? You ALSO go fark yourselves. No.

Palestinians:
ksaz.images.worldnow.com
Fine. Hey, Syria can we han-

Syria: OH LOOK WHO IT IS! Thanks for the help, dickbags. And to answer your question: No.

Palestinians: FFFFFFUUUUUUUU-

I mean, it's really just a shiat sandwich for everyone.
 
2013-01-10 12:53:51 PM  

Gulper Eel: God Is My Co-Pirate: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

Well, France.

They have enough hot women that they can stay. Besides, nobody wants a giant Luxembourg.


Colonialism wasn't all bad, if it led to such examples of hybrid vigour as this:

cdn1.gossipcenter.com

She's in the new James Bond film, and is one of most beautiful women I've ever seen.
Beautiful enough for Israel? Hard to say.
 
2013-01-10 12:54:41 PM  

Crotchrocket Slim: This was prior to the Nuremberg Acts, Jews were NOT ghettocized in Germany at the time


Did I limit it to only Germany in the 20th Century?

// "ghetto" is an Italian word
// Nazis were pissed (or, gave these as reasons at various times) both at Jews' self-segregation and intermingling with Good Germans
 
2013-01-10 12:55:13 PM  

Dr Dreidel: cameroncrazy1984: That doesn't justify Israel's land grab. Just saying, if you tried that defense in court you'd be laughed out in five minutes.

OK. So? (and it was "The UN's land-grab", followed by "a 6-month war where indigenous people, rather than accept yet another government that wasn't made up of their own, attacked proto-Israel to prevent the UN's partition plan from being realized, then when they lost proceeded to whine about it rather than attempt to make peace.")

I'm not justifying it objectively, I'm explaining why a homeland (even one, as Herzl first wanted, in what is now Uganda) for ethnic minorities is a jury-rigged solution for a retarded human problem.


Solutions resolve problems, this doesn't really resolve anything. At best this is a temporary arrangement between either wars/genocides or people change what sort of entirely identity-based difference they are going to be obsessed about.
 
2013-01-10 12:57:10 PM  

give me doughnuts: Diogenes: Gulper Eel: Altair: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

and here we go...

Well, okay, I forgot that a few years back the Danes were ready to start some shiat with Canada over that rock up near Greenland. Thankfully, diplomacy prevailed and we were spared the horrors of the Poutine/Lego War of 2005.

Cute.

But I love how for all the hewing and crying over our sovereignty with regard to the UN, we seem to be ready to sacrifice it for Israel without question or hesitation.

Really? Supporting an ally is now "sacrificing our sovereignty"?

Damn those Japanese for making us give up our sovereignty! And likewise let us curse the Germans and those dastardly villains in the Netherlands!


Why is Israel an ally? What do they do for us besides makimg sure everyone in the ME hates us?
 
2013-01-10 12:57:57 PM  

Crotchrocket Slim: Dr Dreidel: cameroncrazy1984: That doesn't justify Israel's land grab. Just saying, if you tried that defense in court you'd be laughed out in five minutes.

OK. So? (and it was "The UN's land-grab", followed by "a 6-month war where indigenous people, rather than accept yet another government that wasn't made up of their own, attacked proto-Israel to prevent the UN's partition plan from being realized, then when they lost proceeded to whine about it rather than attempt to make peace.")

I'm not justifying it objectively, I'm explaining why a homeland (even one, as Herzl first wanted, in what is now Uganda) for ethnic minorities is a jury-rigged solution for a retarded human problem.

Solutions resolve problems, this doesn't really resolve anything. At best this is a temporary arrangement between either wars/genocides or people change what sort of entirely identity-based difference they are going to be obsessed about.


So in other words, you'd call it "a jury-rigged 'solution' for a retarded human problem"? (I guess I implied the quotes, but didn't use them. "Jury-rigged" was meant to imply that it's a half-solution at best.)

// just like in science, though - every answer only raises more questions
// even if they signed a peace accord tomorrow, there'd be enough anger on both sides to propel this conflict past 2020
 
2013-01-10 12:58:10 PM  

TheMysticS: /i know my derpy answer wasn't what you were looking for, but there it is.


I'm not looking for herp or for derp, I'm just looking for some of the more rabid posters in these threads to own up that they're more interested in supporting a status quo that aligns with them politically than actually having any patriotism for Israel as a country or any love for Judaism as a religion or philosophy.
 
2013-01-10 12:58:58 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Crotchrocket Slim: This was prior to the Nuremberg Acts, Jews were NOT ghettocized in Germany at the time

Did I limit it to only Germany in the 20th Century?

// "ghetto" is an Italian word
// Nazis were pissed (or, gave these as reasons at various times) both at Jews' self-segregation and intermingling with Good Germans


I felt that 20th century history- some of which people who are alive today lived through- is a lot more relevant to today's politics than shiat that happened when Caesar was around and Rome was more than a mere tourist attraction. If nothing else I felt it fair to cite at least one situation when Jews in Europe weren't second class citizens and had somewhat been accepted into society at large at least until people started looking for other people to hate for silly reasons.
 
2013-01-10 01:00:31 PM  
Don't forget that there are many Orthodox, Catholic(Vatican II ruined some of this) and some evangelical Christians etc. who believe that the Old Covenant is now obsolete and that Judaism has no claims to the terms 'chosen', 'people of God', 'Israel' and the like. That Jesus has fulfilled and taken on the roles of all the Old Covenant promises. Its called supersessionism or fulfillment theology by it's supporters and replacement theology by it's detractors. In other words, there are no true Jews anymore, and therefore they have no rights to any land anywhere, at least no more than anybody else.
 
2013-01-10 01:01:30 PM  

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


Neither is Israel.

Y'know, unless you've been asleep for 50 years. Jordan, Egypt, and more are on good, if not ambivalent, terms with Israel.
Hell, even Lebanon doesn't want to tangle with the Israelis, and Syria has its own issues.
The only nation that keeps up the derp is Iran, and their proxy of Hezbollah.
 
2013-01-10 01:01:44 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Jews. It's Jews right? We did it to ourselves?


Not on purpose, and with TONS of help, and over the course of centuries and ... not really... but guess if you wanted to play the victim you can pretend that's what he meant.

Why are Jews stereotypically associated with banks and banking?
 
2013-01-10 01:02:20 PM  

jaybeezey: We also weren't part of a group that created Canada, Frnace or Turkey out of thin air.


Again France. We created that.
 
2013-01-10 01:02:37 PM  

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


Not yet.
 
2013-01-10 01:02:48 PM  

StreetlightInTheGhetto: How many other allied nations have had spies in the US as well?


All of them?
Admittedly, most of them would be industrial/economic spies, and not the military intelligence kind.


Crotchrocket Slim: Albert911emt:

So much THIS. If we are a soveriegn nation, then we owe nothing to the UN or to Israel, and that's exactly how it should be. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to work with them, but we don't owe them anything.

What the hell does this mean? Sovereign nations are not obligated to honor the arrangements they freely entered into with other sovereign nations?


Depends on what you mean by obligation. Nations pull out of treaties all the time if their geo-political calculus says it is worth the diplomatic hit.
 
2013-01-10 01:03:59 PM  

BeesNuts: Dr Dreidel: Jews. It's Jews right? We did it to ourselves?

Not on purpose, and with TONS of help, and over the course of centuries and ... not really... but guess if you wanted to play the victim you can pretend that's what he meant.

Why are Jews stereotypically associated with banks and banking?


Shakespeare
 
2013-01-10 01:05:20 PM  
Isn't France part of another country now? I thought they surrendered to someone just recently.
 
2013-01-10 01:05:23 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Crotchrocket Slim: Dr Dreidel: cameroncrazy1984: That doesn't justify Israel's land grab. Just saying, if you tried that defense in court you'd be laughed out in five minutes.

OK. So? (and it was "The UN's land-grab", followed by "a 6-month war where indigenous people, rather than accept yet another government that wasn't made up of their own, attacked proto-Israel to prevent the UN's partition plan from being realized, then when they lost proceeded to whine about it rather than attempt to make peace.")

I'm not justifying it objectively, I'm explaining why a homeland (even one, as Herzl first wanted, in what is now Uganda) for ethnic minorities is a jury-rigged solution for a retarded human problem.

Solutions resolve problems, this doesn't really resolve anything. At best this is a temporary arrangement between either wars/genocides or people change what sort of entirely identity-based difference they are going to be obsessed about.

So in other words, you'd call it "a jury-rigged 'solution' for a retarded human problem"? (I guess I implied the quotes, but didn't use them. "Jury-rigged" was meant to imply that it's a half-solution at best.)

// just like in science, though - every answer only raises more questions
// even if they signed a peace accord tomorrow, there'd be enough anger on both sides to propel this conflict past 2020


I'd call it a very temporary, stop gap measure that if we'd ever consider implementing as official policy, we'd need to set up conditions needed to end that policy.

If nothing else, what people hate each other for changes greatly over time. You realize that even if the Nazis had finished off their Final Solution they'd have started turning inward and finding other flimsy excuses to toss people into internment camps; segregation has never been anything that people do for practical reasons.

As someone of German descent I only see obsessing over a "fatherland" for yourself, be it one you're "destined" to have or one you create out of pragmatic reasons, is just utter folly.
 
2013-01-10 01:06:01 PM  

BeesNuts: Dr Dreidel: Jews. It's Jews right? We did it to ourselves?

Not on purpose, and with TONS of help, and over the course of centuries and ... not really... but guess if you wanted to play the victim you can pretend that's what he meant.

Why are Jews stereotypically associated with banks and banking?


Part of the reason is that Christians couldn't collect interest on loans. They "sold" them to Jews, who could charge interest - leading to the twin stereotypes of Jews being bankers and Europeans reviling them. (Or so I hear.)

That, and the general focus on learning complex systems.

// why are black people stereotypically good at sports?
// I have no idea - nobody asked me when these stereotypes were created
 
2013-01-10 01:06:37 PM  

Agarista: BeesNuts: Dr Dreidel: Jews. It's Jews right? We did it to ourselves?

Not on purpose, and with TONS of help, and over the course of centuries and ... not really... but guess if you wanted to play the victim you can pretend that's what he meant.

Why are Jews stereotypically associated with banks and banking?

Shakespeare


Actually, that was from way before Shakespeare, like many of his works, the Merchant of Venice is an adaptation of an older work.
 
2013-01-10 01:06:59 PM  
Just an observation:

I've noticed that "support for Israel" is a GOP party plank, yet the Democrats get the majority of the Jewish vote. I think it's because GOP "support for Israel" seems based on a creepy evangelical belief that the end times can't occur without Israel. It's not so much that the GOP is after the Jewish vote - they're after the Jesus Freak vote.

As for the actual Jewish voters, the GOP seems quite adversarial, often condemning the Hollywood Jews for their promotion of a Liberal bias. And I know several Jews who are more than a bit disturbed by GOP hate for "Undesirables" (Jews, Blacks, Muslims, Mexicans - or as I heard one right winger sum up - 'Democrats').

Anyway, GOP opposition to this nomination probably has far more to do with the Black man in the White house than it does with Israel.
 
2013-01-10 01:08:18 PM  

PonceAlyosha: Agarista: BeesNuts: Dr Dreidel: Jews. It's Jews right? We did it to ourselves?

Not on purpose, and with TONS of help, and over the course of centuries and ... not really... but guess if you wanted to play the victim you can pretend that's what he meant.

Why are Jews stereotypically associated with banks and banking?

Shakespeare

Actually, that was from way before Shakespeare, like many of his works, the Merchant of Venice is an adaptation of an older work.


joke fail...
 
2013-01-10 01:09:37 PM  

Crotchrocket Slim: As someone of German descent I only see obsessing over a "fatherland" for yourself, be it one you're "destined" to have or one you create out of pragmatic reasons, is just utter folly.


Would that every country on Earth could be trusted 100% with the welfare of 100% of its citizens.
 
2013-01-10 01:09:52 PM  

theorellior: TheMysticS: /i know my derpy answer wasn't what you were looking for, but there it is.

I'm not looking for herp or for derp, I'm just looking for some of the more rabid posters in these threads to own up that they're more interested in supporting a status quo that aligns with them politically than actually having any patriotism for Israel as a country or any love for Judaism as a religion or philosophy.


Ok, my bad. I should have said something more like brain-addled, it was self-effacing.

And I understand what you mean. But the people that I know that are Israel-supporters go around telling everyone so (even tho nobody asked)
by bumpersticking their minivans to death with SUPPORT ISRAEL...ISRAEL IS OUR ALLY...I (STAR OF DAVID) ISRAEL, etc.
They wear the tee shirts and say the catch phrases.
But it boils down to-
*they are Christianity's religious roots,
*they are with us in what we do, and what America stands for
*Jesus ain't comin' back unless the place is destroyed, and
*they are the stewards of our holy land.
 
2013-01-10 01:10:12 PM  

BeesNuts: Dr Dreidel: Jews. It's Jews right? We did it to ourselves?

Not on purpose, and with TONS of help, and over the course of centuries and ... not really... but guess if you wanted to play the victim you can pretend that's what he meant.

Why are Jews stereotypically associated with banks and banking?


Historically being barred from owning (and thus working) land, leaving banking and more academic industries the only ones really available to them. The focus on academics in Jewish culture doesn't hurt (not sure if this arose from that situation or if that's simply been a hallmark of Jewish culture since the beginning).
 
2013-01-10 01:11:14 PM  

BeesNuts: Why are Jews stereotypically associated with banks and banking?


Usury--charging interest on a loan--is considered a sin by all Abrahamic faiths. It's not so much in use in Christian-based nations today, but "sharia banking" is a complicated system for companies in Islamic nations to get around this stricture. In Europe in the Middle Ages, Jews could loan money to Christians, but not to fellow Jews. So they became the bankers.
 
2013-01-10 01:11:33 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Crotchrocket Slim: As someone of German descent I only see obsessing over a "fatherland" for yourself, be it one you're "destined" to have or one you create out of pragmatic reasons, is just utter folly.

Would that every country on Earth could be trusted 100% with the welfare of 100% of its citizens.


In democratic republics, governments are always reflections of their constituencies. "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance" and all that.
 
2013-01-10 01:12:01 PM  

BeesNuts: Why are Jews stereotypically associated with banks and banking?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion#Structu re _and_content
]
Chapters 20 and 21
 
2013-01-10 01:15:21 PM  

Private_Citizen: Just an observation:

I've noticed that "support for Israel" is a GOP party plank, yet the Democrats get the majority of the Jewish vote. I think it's because GOP "support for Israel" seems based on a creepy evangelical belief that the end times can't occur without Israel. It's not so much that the GOP is after the Jewish vote - they're after the Jesus Freak vote.

As for the actual Jewish voters, the GOP seems quite adversarial, often condemning the Hollywood Jews for their promotion of a Liberal bias. And I know several Jews who are more than a bit disturbed by GOP hate for "Undesirables" (Jews, Blacks, Muslims, Mexicans - or as I heard one right winger sum up - 'Democrats').

Anyway, GOP opposition to this nomination probably has far more to do with the Black man in the White house than it does with Israel.


It always seemed to me like the fundy elements of the GOP base were more than happy to use Israelis as redshirts for the Apocalypse.
 
2013-01-10 01:15:24 PM  

theorellior: Usury--charging interest on a loan--is considered a sin by all Abrahamic faiths.


As I understand, in Judaism, the prohibition is against OVERLY usurous rates. If you're a banker and your business is selling loans, how do you make money without it? Selling loans is a legitimate business (ask Tommy the Shark), and one is certainly allowed to earn a living from it - but not at the expense of others' financial stability.

Implied in that (among other OT laws) is also the notion that both lender and borrower should be fully aware of the terms and costs of the loan. The lender has an obligation to ensure the borrower isn't setting themselves up for ruin.
 
2013-01-10 01:15:41 PM  

vernonFL: I am a Zionist, I believe the Jewish people should have their own country.

That being said, Israel today is a shameful apartheid state and I don't want my money supporting the current Israeli regime.


Well, Diogenes, I think you can blow out your lamp. Here is a honest man.

There was much discussion about this pre-WWII. Many thought the solution, no pun intended, to anti-Semitism was for the Jewish people to have a homeland. Palestine was only one option; Madagascar, Argentina, Uganda and other places that couldn't really say no and/or would welcome skilled, pasty immigrants were kicked around as "Jewish homelands".

But the worst land coveted by the most people was selected. Sometimes I wonder if the state of Israel, which was (let's face it) created largely as a consolation prize for the democracies' failure to stop or really even slow down the Holocaust, was in itself a subtle act of anti-Semitism.

"Man, even after most of the European ones wen to the ovens, I still dislike those Jews. Let's get the socialist, non-observant, combative nationalist ones and pack 'em next to the Orthodox, won't fight/will take handout beardie ones. We'll have to ethnically cleanse the place of Christian and Muslim Arabs who were hoping just to lose the Ottomans, and who will fester bitterly in slums for 50 years but hey, it'll be the ultimate troll!"

Talk about a not-very-secret protocol. Throw in the fundie streak that gets wet knickers over the prospect of Armageddon: The Final Countdown, and all becomes clear.

If not particularly pleasant.

/had both Jewish and Palestinian girlfriends in the day, and have heard every argument ever on the topic in between non-halal, non-kosher sexings.
 
2013-01-10 01:16:43 PM  

farkingatwork: Uncle Tractor: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

Now why is that ...?

[i560.photobucket.com image 640x453]

uh, there are arab jews. about 50-75% of jews are arabs. That's why it's so ridiculous that they want to treat the country as an enemy and/or different when they're basically all the same people with the same hereditary background.


Welcome to Ulster, ye baaasturd...
 
2013-01-10 01:19:25 PM  

Dr Dreidel: As I understand, in Judaism, the prohibition is against OVERLY usurous rates. If you're a banker and your business is selling loans, how do you make money without it? Selling loans is a legitimate business (ask Tommy the Shark), and one is certainly allowed to earn a living from it - but not at the expense of others' financial stability.


Tru dat, but Christians in the Middle Ages wouldn't hear about that namby-pamby splitting of hairs. THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU TO CHARGE NO INTEREST!

Even with sharia banking, it's probably one of the obstacles that keeps the Muslim world from developing faster.
 
2013-01-10 01:19:34 PM  

Crotchrocket Slim: Private_Citizen: Just an observation:

I've noticed that "support for Israel" is a GOP party plank, yet the Democrats get the majority of the Jewish vote. I think it's because GOP "support for Israel" seems based on a creepy evangelical belief that the end times can't occur without Israel. It's not so much that the GOP is after the Jewish vote - they're after the Jesus Freak vote.

As for the actual Jewish voters, the GOP seems quite adversarial, often condemning the Hollywood Jews for their promotion of a Liberal bias. And I know several Jews who are more than a bit disturbed by GOP hate for "Undesirables" (Jews, Blacks, Muslims, Mexicans - or as I heard one right winger sum up - 'Democrats').

Anyway, GOP opposition to this nomination probably has far more to do with the Black man in the White house than it does with Israel.

It always seemed to me like the fundy elements of the GOP base were more than happy to use Israelis as redshirts for the Apocalypse.


Exactly. You can't draw out the bad guys for the main event without some well placed bait
 
2013-01-10 01:20:25 PM  

people: meh



My old synagogue (admittedly, we were reform) always interpreted that command to mean to be more moral. To be a pillar of the community, as it were.
 
2013-01-10 01:20:57 PM  

Agarista: Am I right in assuming that all supporters of a Jewish state are also supporters of a Kurdish state?


No whey.
 
2013-01-10 01:26:39 PM  

theorellior: Christians in the Middle Ages wouldn't hear about that namby-pamby splitting of hairs. THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU TO CHARGE NO INTEREST!


I wonder if this had to do with large religious institutions (who shall remain nameless) wanting interest-free loans.
 
2013-01-10 01:27:21 PM  

Valiente: vernonFL: I am a Zionist, I believe the Jewish people should have their own country.

That being said, Israel today is a shameful apartheid state and I don't want my money supporting the current Israeli regime.

Well, Diogenes, I think you can blow out your lamp. Here is a honest man.

There was much discussion about this pre-WWII. Many thought the solution, no pun intended, to anti-Semitism was for the Jewish people to have a homeland. Palestine was only one option; Madagascar, Argentina, Uganda and other places that couldn't really say no and/or would welcome skilled, pasty immigrants were kicked around as "Jewish homelands".

But the worst land coveted by the most people was selected. Sometimes I wonder if the state of Israel, which was (let's face it) created largely as a consolation prize for the democracies' failure to stop or really even slow down the Holocaust, was in itself a subtle act of anti-Semitism.

"Man, even after most of the European ones wen to the ovens, I still dislike those Jews. Let's get the socialist, non-observant, combative nationalist ones and pack 'em next to the Orthodox, won't fight/will take handout beardie ones. We'll have to ethnically cleanse the place of Christian and Muslim Arabs who were hoping just to lose the Ottomans, and who will fester bitterly in slums for 50 years but hey, it'll be the ultimate troll!"

Talk about a not-very-secret protocol. Throw in the fundie streak that gets wet knickers over the prospect of Armageddon: The Final Countdown, and all becomes clear.

If not particularly pleasant.

/had both Jewish and Palestinian girlfriends in the day, and have heard every argument ever on the topic in between non-halal, non-kosher sexings.


I wish I had just let you post what I wanted to say in this thread. Damn well said.
 
2013-01-10 01:28:21 PM  

Dr Dreidel: theorellior: Christians in the Middle Ages wouldn't hear about that namby-pamby splitting of hairs. THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU TO CHARGE NO INTEREST!

I wonder if this had to do with large religious institutions (who shall remain nameless) wanting interest-free loans.


It's cool to name it, not even practicing Roman Catholics trust their Church.
 
2013-01-10 01:32:06 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Amos Quito: The goal of the (largely secular) Zionists in creating the "Jewish State" was not to protect Jews from "anti-Semitism", but to prevent Jews from assimilation.

Also from world leaders up and deciding that Jews (in general, or perhaps one group or person in particular) were a nuisance and were no longer required. Over the last 1,000 years, Jews were expelled from pretty much every country in Europe - twice. In the last 50 years, half - HALF! - of Jews in Europe were killed by the state, 2/3 of Polish Jews (where the bulk of the European community was) gone. Untold thousands of relics from pretty much every part of Jewish history over the last 2,000 years were destroyed, burned, looted or otherwise made unavailable.

But no. Jews don't need anything like a homeland - we have the US, for god's sake! A nation whose leaders have believed that Jews killed Jesus, engaged in blood libels (not to mention the virulent anti-Semitism displayed both by officials in government and slack-jawed yokels alike against Werner Brandeis, Caspar Weinberger, and pretty much any Jew in government until at least 1980 - hell, Dick Nixon was a RAGING anti-Semite, slagging his enemies as "damn Jews" on tape), support Israel so Jews can DIAF pre-Jesus and pay lip-service to the "Judeo"-Christian founding of the country by ignoring our religious heritage (California's proposed circumcision ban, for example).

I'd prefer it if it wasn't needed (the same way I'd prefer it if no country had an official religion), and I'm presenting worst-case scenarios (so no, I don't expect Holocaust 2 to hit the US' shores anytime soon), but you'd have to be some kind of idiot to not recognize why an ethnic group with a history described by scholars as "the shiat end of the stick" (apologies to Jon Stewart) should have a place to call home, even if it's on the other side of the world.


So because Jews have had a rough history they deserve a homeland? Great ... Let them pay for it themselves. My tax dollars shouldn't.have to fund it.
 
2013-01-10 01:32:39 PM  

BeesNuts: Dr Dreidel: Jews. It's Jews right? We did it to ourselves?

Not on purpose, and with TONS of help, and over the course of centuries and ... not really... but guess if you wanted to play the victim you can pretend that's what he meant.

Why are Jews stereotypically associated with banks and banking?


Because (and subsequently ironically), Christians in the Middle Ages weren't allowed to lend money/charge interest for religious reasons, AND they chose to shut out Jews from most of the professions because of religious hatred, so Jews went into banking because beaver hats hadn't been invented yet.

More than one king did more than one pogrom/mass expulsion/partial slaughter of the local Jews in order to avoid repaying a huge loan.

So the question is really "given the history, why did the Jews stay in banking?"
 
2013-01-10 01:34:18 PM  

earthworm2.0: So because Jews have had a rough history they deserve a homeland? Great ... Let them pay for it themselves. My tax dollars shouldn't.have to fund it.


I agree (though more as a trial balloon than a Final...you get it). Let's start winding down that aid year-by-year - if Israel can't live without it, they (and we, as their ally) should know; and if they can, super!
 
2013-01-10 01:35:56 PM  

earthworm2.0:
So because Jews have had a rough history they deserve a homeland? Great ... Let them pay for it themselves ...


I propose a moratorium on this sort of posting and the general idea of "my tax dollars should only go to things I personally approve of a la carte style". Democracy does not work this way nor was it ever intended to. Does anyone second this?
 
2013-01-10 01:36:42 PM  

Crotchrocket Slim: Private_Citizen: Just an observation:

I've noticed that "support for Israel" is a GOP party plank, yet the Democrats get the majority of the Jewish vote. I think it's because GOP "support for Israel" seems based on a creepy evangelical belief that the end times can't occur without Israel. It's not so much that the GOP is after the Jewish vote - they're after the Jesus Freak vote.

As for the actual Jewish voters, the GOP seems quite adversarial, often condemning the Hollywood Jews for their promotion of a Liberal bias. And I know several Jews who are more than a bit disturbed by GOP hate for "Undesirables" (Jews, Blacks, Muslims, Mexicans - or as I heard one right winger sum up - 'Democrats').

Anyway, GOP opposition to this nomination probably has far more to do with the Black man in the White house than it does with Israel.

It always seemed to me like the fundy elements of the GOP base were more than happy to use Israelis as redshirts for the Apocalypse.


It's indeed unfortunate that I was drinking coffee when I read that phrase. What a great band name. What a great Klezmer band name.
 
2013-01-10 01:36:43 PM  

Agarista: BeesNuts: Dr Dreidel: Jews. It's Jews right? We did it to ourselves?

Not on purpose, and with TONS of help, and over the course of centuries and ... not really... but guess if you wanted to play the victim you can pretend that's what he meant.

Why are Jews stereotypically associated with banks and banking?

Shakespeare


Yup... Shakespeare totally made up the idea of a Jewish Usurer taking pounds of flesh from good Christians on his own. That's why the play was so popular... nobody understood it. -_-

Alternatively, during the Crusades, there was a need to loan and transfer money from party to party. As there was a Christian moratorium on charging interest, this was clearly a difficulty to be overcome. Fortunately, the Jews at the time were reading Deuteronomy a little differently and didn't consider gentiles to be "their brothers" and therefore they weren't beholden to such prohibitions.

For nearly 200 years, bankers in Europe were almost universally Jewish. Christians thought this was Usury and kind of reluctantly dealt with these bankers. This was the first socio-economic friction between Jews and Christians. Before that it was all theological, but banking brought it into the real. Centuries of friction led the Jews to become increasingly insular and reluctant to assimilate or be assimilated. Obviously, the source of their social power became the new primary source of their status as outcasts, but the maintenance of this social power was more important, at that time, than being friends with the gentiles. Plus, as an added bonus, the gentiles were dealing with all the Arabs that were camped out in Jerusalem, which put a smile on their faces.

Heck, even the notion of Gentiles denotes a sort of self-segregation. "We are the Jews" The only other kind of people in the world are Non-Jews."

The Jews have a TREMENDOUS amount of history. And while not all of it is positive the vast majority is at least neutral. The problem is that you go traipsing down memory lane with Judaism and you can't help but stumble on some pitfalls that help inform the current situation... and then realize that those pitfalls are informed by previous pitfalls... stretching back like 1500 years.

/Whose "fault" was WWI? is a less complicated question than "whose fault is Palestine"
 
2013-01-10 01:37:39 PM  
USS Liberty
Stolen nuclear materials and information
Iran-Contra
\list continues
\\new fark handle suggestion: Balfour Declination? :)
 
2013-01-10 01:37:46 PM  

Dr Dreidel: I wonder if this had to do with large religious institutions (who shall remain nameless) wanting interest-free loans.


Or competition.
 
2013-01-10 01:40:49 PM  

Crotchrocket Slim: earthworm2.0:
So because Jews have had a rough history they deserve a homeland? Great ... Let them pay for it themselves ...

I propose a moratorium on this sort of posting and the general idea of "my tax dollars should only go to things I personally approve of a la carte style". Democracy does not work this way nor was it ever intended to. Does anyone second this?


I'm OK with it, although I want to ban airbags and seatbelts (the root cause of speeding) because my sister needs a liver and assholes aren't signing enough donor cards, which should be negative option.

TL;DR: Religion ruins everything.
 
2013-01-10 01:41:59 PM  

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

 
2013-01-10 01:43:50 PM  

BeesNuts: the gentiles were dealing with all the Arabs that were camped out in Jerusalem, which put a smile on their faces.


This was during a period of relative cooperation between Jews and Muslims. I think. There have been so many (and more than one Crusade, too), so I can't be sure this is the same time you're referring to.

Anyway, Jews and Muslims have not always been at each others' throats.
 
2013-01-10 01:45:53 PM  

Fissile: in a few decades there will be more Israeli citizens of Arab descent than Jews


Um....
 
2013-01-10 01:50:14 PM  

Valiente: Crotchrocket Slim: earthworm2.0:
So because Jews have had a rough history they deserve a homeland? Great ... Let them pay for it themselves ...

I propose a moratorium on this sort of posting and the general idea of "my tax dollars should only go to things I personally approve of a la carte style". Democracy does not work this way nor was it ever intended to. Does anyone second this?

I'm OK with it, although I want to ban airbags and seatbelts (the root cause of speeding) because my sister needs a liver and assholes aren't signing enough donor cards, which should be negative option.

TL;DR: Religion ruins everything.


You just reminded me I need to check that organ donor option the next time I'm getting a new license. Thanks!
 
2013-01-10 01:50:31 PM  
Be it the far left or the far right both have reasons to throw money at Israel that are not in American interests. We don't have to support Greece to prove we don't hate Greek people. Israel has enough nukes to defend itself.
 
2013-01-10 01:50:42 PM  
Remember, if you build a house in a flood plain and it gets destroyed in a hurricane, that's your fault and the government should leave you to your own devices.

If you build a country by taking land from the indigenous population and then proceed to flip off every country for a thousand miles while implementing various morally questionable policies towards that population, it's our duty to protect you at all costs.
 
2013-01-10 01:50:53 PM  
Still find it terribly amusing how a nation can win two wars and yet the defeated people and others (including people whose nation got large swaths of their own sovereign land by winning it in wars) can say "OMG, that's not fair, give the land back to the people you won it from!" Life isn't fair, farking deal with it.

/let's give the entire SW back to Mexico before we cry about Israel... or is the issue that their wars were too recent to qualify?
//we don't behave any better towards illegal Latinos. Not shooting them doesn't make our behavior justified--or any different.
///Clean our own house before trying to help them clean theirs.
 
2013-01-10 01:54:06 PM  

Agarista: PonceAlyosha: Agarista: BeesNuts: Dr Dreidel: Jews. It's Jews right? We did it to ourselves?

Not on purpose, and with TONS of help, and over the course of centuries and ... not really... but guess if you wanted to play the victim you can pretend that's what he meant.

Why are Jews stereotypically associated with banks and banking?

Shakespeare

Actually, that was from way before Shakespeare, like many of his works, the Merchant of Venice is an adaptation of an older work.

joke fail...


It was quite the fail. I'm glad people actually know something about that.

I think some people have the timing of the diaspora and the banking stuff mixed up. Jews lived happily and prosperously in Spain until about 1500. The Banking vs Usury shiat started up in the 1100s. Jews were permitted to hold land and jobs in large swathes of Europe until at least 1300. After that is was a frog boiling in water situation for like... 400 years.

But it's nice to know you weren't being serious with the Shakespeare bit.
 
2013-01-10 01:55:21 PM  
Can anyone guess the real reason DC is so interested in relations with Israel despite them being a worthless albatross around our neck?

The US government cannot, legally, spy on US citizens.

Foreign countries, however, can. And nothing stops them from 'sharing' it. Look up AMDOCs (I applied for a job there once and was pretty appalled).

That's it except for a few nutcases wanting the world to end and a whole bunch of sheeple just spewing crap someone else told them.
 
2013-01-10 01:56:58 PM  

Aigoo: Still find it terribly amusing how a nation can win two wars and yet the defeated people and others (including people whose nation got large swaths of their own sovereign land by winning it in wars) can say "OMG, that's not fair, give the land back to the people you won it from!" Life isn't fair, farking deal with it.

/let's give the entire SW back to Mexico before we cry about Israel... or is the issue that their wars were too recent to qualify?
//we don't behave any better towards illegal Latinos. Not shooting them doesn't make our behavior justified--or any different.
///Clean our own house before trying to help them clean theirs.


And before givining them more shiat to smear on their walls...
 
2013-01-10 02:03:06 PM  

BeesNuts: Agarista: PonceAlyosha: Agarista: BeesNuts: Dr Dreidel: Jews. It's Jews right? We did it to ourselves?

Not on purpose, and with TONS of help, and over the course of centuries and ... not really... but guess if you wanted to play the victim you can pretend that's what he meant.

Why are Jews stereotypically associated with banks and banking?

Shakespeare

Actually, that was from way before Shakespeare, like many of his works, the Merchant of Venice is an adaptation of an older work.

joke fail...

It was quite the fail. I'm glad people actually know something about that.

I think some people have the timing of the diaspora and the banking stuff mixed up. Jews lived happily and prosperously in Spain until about 1500. The Banking vs Usury shiat started up in the 1100s. Jews were permitted to hold land and jobs in large swathes of Europe until at least 1300. After that is was a frog boiling in water situation for like... 400 years.

But it's nice to know you weren't being serious with the Shakespeare bit.


I taught the history of classical theater for two years, even directed Merchant back in '96.
Like so many other on this site, nearly all of what I post requires /snark /end snark tags.
 
2013-01-10 02:04:46 PM  

Dr Dreidel: BeesNuts: the gentiles were dealing with all the Arabs that were camped out in Jerusalem, which put a smile on their faces.

This was during a period of relative cooperation between Jews and Muslims. I think. There have been so many (and more than one Crusade, too), so I can't be sure this is the same time you're referring to.

Anyway, Jews and Muslims have not always been at each others' throats.


Nope. In fact they were united against the Christians until ... well pretty much the formation of modern Isreal, with some other notable exceptions.

Christians had a much more integrated role in Israel (more specifically Jerusalem) until the middle of the 1800s when they promptly stopped giving a shiat about specific land and more about having shiatloads of members.

And while I've heard it claimed that the Jews are at fault for the current animosity, I'm not at all willing to go that far. But it absolutely *must* be acknowledged that this situation isn't 50 years in the making, but more like 500. If I were to rewrite a thesis I wrote in college, it'd probably be something along the lines of:
"While modern history is replete with examples of conflict between Jews and Arabs, the true catalysts of this conflict is now and always has been the Christians."

But that's mostly because I think that would be a fun paper to write.
 
2013-01-10 02:06:58 PM  

Agarista: BeesNuts: Agarista: PonceAlyosha: Agarista: BeesNuts: Dr Dreidel: Jews. It's Jews right? We did it to ourselves?

Not on purpose, and with TONS of help, and over the course of centuries and ... not really... but guess if you wanted to play the victim you can pretend that's what he meant.

Why are Jews stereotypically associated with banks and banking?

Shakespeare

Actually, that was from way before Shakespeare, like many of his works, the Merchant of Venice is an adaptation of an older work.

joke fail...

It was quite the fail. I'm glad people actually know something about that.

I think some people have the timing of the diaspora and the banking stuff mixed up. Jews lived happily and prosperously in Spain until about 1500. The Banking vs Usury shiat started up in the 1100s. Jews were permitted to hold land and jobs in large swathes of Europe until at least 1300. After that is was a frog boiling in water situation for like... 400 years.

But it's nice to know you weren't being serious with the Shakespeare bit.

I taught the history of classical theater for two years, even directed Merchant back in '96.
Like so many other on this site, nearly all of what I post requires /snark /end snark tags.


Do you like the play? Out of curiosity. I've seen it live twice and on film once or twice. I've always thought it had terrible dialogue and character development but PHENOMENAL settings. It's gotta be one of W.S.'s "prettiest" plays... if you can say that about the playwrite's intent... but damn if it's not boring as all hell.
 
2013-01-10 02:10:56 PM  
hey HEY, what about assault rifles?
 
2013-01-10 02:11:51 PM  

Aigoo: let's give the entire SW back to Mexico before we cry about Israel... or is the issue that their wars were too recent to qualify?


How about as an alternative, we add an Amendment to the US Constitution saying that every single person born in New Mexico has full American citizenship, with the ability to freely travel anywhere in the country at any time without restriction. Also, maybe we could add something to our Constitution that gives New Mexico residents full representation in the United States federal government. And then, maybe we could add 200 years of Constitutional amendments, laws, and legal precedent to say that residents of New Mexico have the full free and unfettered right to trade goods and services with the residents of every other state, with minimal restriction or tariffs.

I tell you what... as soon as the United States does those things for New Mexico, will you do the same for the West Bank and the Gaza Strip?
 
2013-01-10 02:17:43 PM  
The dramaturge gave the go-ahead for it to be done in a sci-fi dystopic setting, so perhaps the only thing you liked about it was destroyed. The 'caskets' were huge wheeled coffins that the incorrect suitors were dragged into. Jessica comes down from her balcony in a cherry-picker. All the Christians wore white and silver, with swimcaps to further their de-individualization. The two (and a half - Jessica changed clothes as she ran away) Jews wore full orthodox gear, so that the black and colors would really stand out. Each of the Christians also wore a silver cross, which they hung on Shylock as they walked out on him during the trial. I had a great deal of fun with it, and only removed about 30 words from the second quarto edition.
 
2013-01-10 02:20:55 PM  

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


Well France sort of is. The Germans are overdue.
 
2013-01-10 02:24:03 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Amos Quito: Dr Dreidel: Amos Quito: The goal of the (largely secular) Zionists in creating the "Jewish State" was not to protect Jews from "anti-Semitism", but to prevent Jews from assimilation.

Also from world leaders up and deciding that Jews (in general, or perhaps one group or person in particular) were a nuisance and were no longer required. Over the last 1,000 years, Jews were expelled from pretty much every country in Europe - twice.

Can you spot the common denominator?

Jews. It's Jews right? We did it to ourselves?

So how do you feel about the idea of Jews fully assimilating? Hard to "persecute" a "group" that does not self-identify (and self-identification is largely the ONLY identifying characteristic of this particular group)

So if only we lost our history and heritage, we could finally be accepted by the (presumably white American/European) majority? How about "go fark yourself with a side of rice"?



So you're smart enough to recognize the core of the problem, but to stubborn to do anything about it? Hope you like your history. Looks like you'll be reliving it. Again.


// why are Jews - forget about Israel - the only group not allowed to have its own identity?


They're not. Many groups have abandoned their identity. That doesn't mean that they were all murdered. Run into any Ottomans lately?


// why am I arguing with an anti-Semite?


Anti-Semitism could not exist in the absence of Semitism.


// why do I allow myself to be dragged into these threads time after time?


Because you (and yours) stubbornly cling to anti-social beliefs and practices despite the fact that they harm you, over and over again?
 
2013-01-10 02:24:16 PM  

The Larch: I tell you what... as soon as the United States does those things for New Mexico, will you do the same for the West Bank and the Gaza Strip?


As soon as the Gaza Strip agrees to be part of Israel, sure.

The Gaza Strip now has its own boundaries and elected government, they've never wanted to be part of Israel (as an entity), and Israel was/is reluctant to annex Gaza after '67. What you seem to be implying is that Gazans should get all the privileges of Israeli citizenship without actually being Israelis.

// like Quebeckian separatists?
 
2013-01-10 02:31:38 PM  
Anti-Semitism could not exist in the absence of Semitism.

Amos Quito: Dr Dreidel: Amos Quito: Dr Dreidel: Amos Quito:


// why am I arguing with an anti-Semite?


Anti-Semitism could not exist in the absence of Semitism.


The term Semite means a member of any of various ancient and modern Semitic-speaking peoples originating in southwestern Asia, including; Akkadians (Assyrians and Babylonians), Eblaites, Ugarites, Canaanites, Phoenicians (including Carthaginians), Hebrews (Israelites, Judeans and Samaritans), Ahlamu, Arameans, Chaldeans, Amorites, Moabites, Edomites, Hyksos, Arabs, Nabateans, Maganites, Shebans, Sutu, Ubarites, Dilmunites, Bahranis, Maltese, Mandaeans, Sabians, Syriacs, Mhallami, Amalekites and Ethiopian Semites.
 
2013-01-10 02:33:29 PM  

Amos Quito: So how do you feel about the idea of Jews fully assimilating? Hard to "persecute" a "group" that does not self-identify (and self-identification is largely the ONLY identifying characteristic of this particular group)


This reminds me of Michele Bachmann's solution for marriage equality---you're already have marriage rights and freedom from discrimination, just marry members of the opposite sex and otherwise act straight. Isn't that essentially the same argument, that gays wouldn't face discrimination if only they assimilated into the straight population?

Although I think it would be super-hilarious if you suggested the same thing to Internet Atheists instead of Jews. Feeling discriminated against? Why don't you just stop acting like atheists?
 
2013-01-10 02:34:13 PM  

Dr Dreidel: // why am I arguing with an anti-Semite?


does labeling somebody to make their arguments go away ever actually work?
 
2013-01-10 02:34:37 PM  

chuckufarlie: The Larch: Aigoo: let's give the entire SW back to Mexico before we cry about Israel... or is the issue that their wars were too recent to qualify?

How about as an alternative, we add an Amendment to the US Constitution saying that every single person born in New Mexico has full American citizenship, with the ability to freely travel anywhere in the country at any time without restriction. Also, maybe we could add something to our Constitution that gives New Mexico residents full representation in the United States federal government. And then, maybe we could add 200 years of Constitutional amendments, laws, and legal precedent to say that residents of New Mexico have the full free and unfettered right to trade goods and services with the residents of every other state, with minimal restriction or tariffs.

I tell you what... as soon as the United States does those things for New Mexico, will you do the same for the West Bank and the Gaza Strip?

you seem confused. Either that or really, really dumb.


Governor... proceed.
 
2013-01-10 02:35:48 PM  

Crotchrocket Slim: Valiente: Crotchrocket Slim: earthworm2.0:
So because Jews have had a rough history they deserve a homeland? Great ... Let them pay for it themselves ...

I propose a moratorium on this sort of posting and the general idea of "my tax dollars should only go to things I personally approve of a la carte style". Democracy does not work this way nor was it ever intended to. Does anyone second this?

I'm OK with it, although I want to ban airbags and seatbelts (the root cause of speeding) because my sister needs a liver and assholes aren't signing enough donor cards, which should be negative option.

TL;DR: Religion ruins everything.

You just reminded me I need to check that organ donor option the next time I'm getting a new license. Thanks!


Won't help me if you're a texting motorcyclist in the States. Move to Southern Ontario and I will support your laudable initiative.
 
2013-01-10 02:37:37 PM  

Amos Quito: So if only we lost our history and heritage, we could finally be accepted by the (presumably white American/European) majority? How about "go fark yourself with a side of rice"?

So you're smart enough to recognize the core of the problem, but to stubborn to do anything about it? Hope you like your history. Looks like you'll be reliving it. Again.


So that it, then? Everyone needs to just give up whatever pieces of history speak to them, because it makes some people uncomfortable? Is there an exception to the rule (like, say, Europeans don't have to abandon their history)? Am I still allowed to study philosophies of, say, Rambam? Can I still read the Socratic-method-argumentation in the Talmud? Can I use the phrase "there are bigger fish to fry" (derived, at least partially, from a Talmudic text "there are larger goats to broil", though I suspect that's a timeless formulation)?

What about minorities like Sri Lankans, gays, gingers, Jainists...? Do they get to keep their heritage? Or if you've been hated on for any significant period of history, gotta drop those "offensive" beliefs?

They're not. Many groups have abandoned their identity. That doesn't mean that they were all murdered. Run into any Ottomans lately?

No, but before 1900, had you ever met a Pole? Apparently, geopolitics and global socio-politics change with the times. Fancy that.

Anti-Semitism could not exist in the absence of Semitism.

And racism against black people couldn't exist without black people. Homophobia (or as George Takei puts it, "being an asshole") couldn't exist without gay people.

I won't apologize for my history/culture/whatever inconveniencing you. If Judaism is so reprehensible, go to Saudi Arabia, where they don't allow Jews, contribute to Israel or even recognize it as an entity. You'll be really happy there, and you'll never have to see a dude in a kippah, a talit, 6-pointed stars or Bibi's face ever again.

// and this is the last (hopefully) we engage in an Israel thread
// nothing personal (from my end, anyway) - you're just coming off as incredibly, unapologetically anti-Semitic, and you won't even understand why
// or maybe you do and you're happily anti-Semitic
// nothing to do with Israel, everything to do with the above
 
2013-01-10 02:37:46 PM  
Yeah, I have to say I side with Palestine on this one.

Western powers came in, divided up the land, and just gave a large block away to someone as a "Whoops, sorry we didn't do anything about that Holocaust thing, even though we totally could have" consolation present. Once there, they have been doing virtually nothing as a nation except taunting their neighbors in a complete "You can't touch me, or my big brother will beat you up!" vibe ever since.

I mean, really, Palestine and half of the middle east have a damned good reason to be pissed off at Isreal without the fact they're jewish ever entering into the picture.
 
2013-01-10 02:37:58 PM  

Dr Dreidel: The Larch: I tell you what... as soon as the United States does those things for New Mexico, will you do the same for the West Bank and the Gaza Strip?

As soon as the Gaza Strip agrees to be part of Israel, sure.

The Gaza Strip now has its own boundaries and elected government, they've never wanted to be part of Israel (as an entity), and Israel was/is reluctant to annex Gaza after '67. What you seem to be implying is that Gazans should get all the privileges of Israeli citizenship without actually being Israelis.

// like Quebeckian separatists?


The only final solutions are that Israel gives the residents of Gaza full Israeli citizenship and the full and complete rights and responsibilities of Israeli citizenship, or Gaza is given complete autonomy from Israel.

// Well, that's not actually true. History is never actually "final".
 
2013-01-10 02:38:21 PM  

Valiente:
Won't help me if you're a texting motorcyclist in the States. Move to Southern Ontario and I will support your laudable initiative.


if you're looking for a functioning liver, fark may not be the place to start looking.

even if you somehow snag one, the liver's cirrhosis will have hepatitis.
 
2013-01-10 02:38:26 PM  

Stile4aly: Remember, if you build a house in a flood plain and it gets destroyed in a hurricane, that's your fault and the government should leave you to your own devices.

If you build a country by taking land from the indigenous population and then proceed to flip off every country for a thousand miles while implementing various morally questionable policies towards that population, it's our duty to protect you at all costs.


Wants a word.
 
2013-01-10 02:39:28 PM  
"Image too big"?

Feh.

lygsbtd.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-01-10 02:41:44 PM  

George Babbitt: Anti-Semitism could not exist in the absence of Semitism.Amos Quito: Dr Dreidel: Amos Quito: Dr Dreidel: Amos Quito:


// why am I arguing with an anti-Semite?


Anti-Semitism could not exist in the absence of Semitism.

The term Semite means a member of any of various ancient and modern Semitic-speaking peoples originating in southwestern Asia, including; Akkadians (Assyrians and Babylonians), Eblaites, Ugarites, Canaanites, Phoenicians (including Carthaginians), Hebrews (Israelites, Judeans and Samaritans), Ahlamu, Arameans, Chaldeans, Amorites, Moabites, Edomites, Hyksos, Arabs, Nabateans, Maganites, Shebans, Sutu, Ubarites, Dilmunites, Bahranis, Maltese, Mandaeans, Sabians, Syriacs, Mhallami, Amalekites and Ethiopian Semites.



Semitism
Sem·i·tism

noun
1. Semitic characteristics, especially the ways, ideas, influence, etc., of the Jewish people.
 
2013-01-10 02:43:32 PM  

chuckufarlie: The Larch: Aigoo: let's give the entire SW back to Mexico before we cry about Israel... or is the issue that their wars were too recent to qualify?

How about as an alternative, we add an Amendment to the US Constitution saying that every single person born in New Mexico has full American citizenship, with the ability to freely travel anywhere in the country at any time without restriction. Also, maybe we could add something to our Constitution that gives New Mexico residents full representation in the United States federal government. And then, maybe we could add 200 years of Constitutional amendments, laws, and legal precedent to say that residents of New Mexico have the full free and unfettered right to trade goods and services with the residents of every other state, with minimal restriction or tariffs.

I tell you what... as soon as the United States does those things for New Mexico, will you do the same for the West Bank and the Gaza Strip?

you seem confused. Either that or really, really dumb.


Update your sarcasm interpretation drivers. You might have to uninstall your old ones before putting in the new ones like you sometimes have to do with your Java client.
 
2013-01-10 02:47:08 PM  

give me doughnuts: Prank Call of Cthulhu: I'm often told, "But they're our ally in the Middle East," to which I always wonder how, exactly, they help us in any way. Does the presence of our friend Israel mean I get cheap gas? No? Do they supply us with anything other than a bunch of Arabs who are mad at us for giving aid to Israel, and a bunch of espionage attempts? No? Then fark 'em.

Resupply port for the 6th Fleet. Logistical and maintenance support for other U.S. forces in the Middle East. Joint training exercises. Technical collaberation on weapons systems.


So we need to support Israel because they help us against people who hate us because we support Israel?
 
2013-01-10 02:47:10 PM  

Xcott: Amos Quito: So how do you feel about the idea of Jews fully assimilating? Hard to "persecute" a "group" that does not self-identify (and self-identification is largely the ONLY identifying characteristic of this particular group)

This reminds me of Michele Bachmann's solution for marriage equality---you're already have marriage rights and freedom from discrimination, just marry members of the opposite sex and otherwise act straight. Isn't that essentially the same argument, that gays wouldn't face discrimination if only they assimilated into the straight population?

Although I think it would be super-hilarious if you suggested the same thing to Internet Atheists instead of Jews. Feeling discriminated against? Why don't you just stop acting like atheists?


I didn't know that an integral part of being Jewish was hiding away from Gentiles. In my experience most of the Jews I've met would rather just get along with their neighbors no matter their background.
 
2013-01-10 02:47:27 PM  

George Babbitt: The term Semite means a member of any of various ancient and modern Semitic-speaking peoples originating in southwestern Asia, including; Akkadians (Assyrians and Babylonians), Eblaites, Ugarites, Canaanites, Phoenicians (including Carthaginians), Hebrews (Israelites, Judeans and Samaritans), Ahlamu, Arameans, Chaldeans, Amorites, Moabites, Edomites, Hyksos, Arabs, Nabateans, Maganites, Shebans, Sutu, Ubarites, Dilmunites, Bahranis, Maltese, Mandaeans, Sabians, Syriacs, Mhallami, Amalekites and Ethiopian Semites, lambs, sloths, carp, anchovies, orangutans, breakfast cereals, fruit bats and large chu...


FTFY

/skip ahead, brother
 
2013-01-10 02:49:37 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Somacandra: Dr Dreidel: Avoid making blanket statements about Palestinians...Avoid making blanket statements about Jews.

I think you're have to admit both of these are heavy tasks for a lot of Farkers. Especially because the relationship between philosemitism and antisemitism is historically less than clear.

If those are heavy tasks, Doc, maybe stop posting for a while (not you, anyone for whom that would be a problem). I actually think it's #3 that trips most people up. You'll notice them in the threads as the people rhetorically throwing up their hands and saying "We can't criticize Israel or the Jews will hate us and make us feel bad for the Holocaust. AGAIN." or "Stupid Americans don't realize that EVIL MUSLIMS are the ones hurting our BFF Izzy for no reason 'tall."

Can we agree to leave those strawmen in the Boobieses and then never bring them up again in-thread?


Why did Dr. Dreidel call Somacandra Doc? Curiouser and curiouser.
 
2013-01-10 02:49:45 PM  

The Larch: The only final solutions are that Israel gives the residents of Gaza full Israeli citizenship and the full and complete rights and responsibilities of Israeli citizenship, or Gaza is given complete autonomy from Israel.


I can dig it.

The roadblock is in getting the respective populations to live with the terms of a deal, but we'll cross that wadi when we come to it.
 
2013-01-10 02:50:45 PM  

Champion of the Sun: Why did Dr. Dreidel call Somacandra Doc? Curiouser and curiouser.


"This is heavy, Doc."

// not obscure after November 5th, 1955
 
2013-01-10 02:52:21 PM  

heap: Dr Dreidel: // why am I arguing with an anti-Semite?

does labeling somebody to make their arguments go away ever actually work?


Yes, it does.

That's why holocaust deniers, creationists, and 9/11 truthers often try to conceal their group affiliation when spreading their propaganda---because they know that if you expose them, they will be ignored or dismissed as sleazy crackpots.

What you deride as "labeling" really amounts to informing the public that someone has a certain belief system that is known to be less credible. It's actually very useful to know that, and it's quite rational to qualify what they say based on that knowledge.
 
2013-01-10 02:55:39 PM  

George Babbitt: Anti-Semitism could not exist in the absence of Semitism.Amos Quito: Dr Dreidel: Amos Quito: Dr Dreidel: Amos Quito:


// why am I arguing with an anti-Semite?


Anti-Semitism could not exist in the absence of Semitism.

The term Semite means a member of any of various ancient and modern Semitic-speaking peoples originating in southwestern Asia, including; Akkadians (Assyrians and Babylonians), Eblaites, Ugarites, Canaanites, Phoenicians (including Carthaginians), Hebrews (Israelites, Judeans and Samaritans), Ahlamu, Arameans, Chaldeans, Amorites, Moabites, Edomites, Hyksos, Arabs, Nabateans, Maganites, Shebans, Sutu, Ubarites, Dilmunites, Bahranis, Maltese, Mandaeans, Sabians, Syriacs, Mhallami, Amalekites and Ethiopian Semites.


This is true in terms of linguistics and in terms of archaeology, and it's bugged me forever that Arabs are called "anti-Semites". It's the semantic (but not Semitic) equivalent of saying "stop hitting yourself!"

But I have heard Jews described as a race, a culture, a religion and a nationality. There seems to be a similar sort of ambiguity at play. If they are a religion, a religion wanting its own country is a theocracy, no? Like Iran since '79? Or Saudi (implicitly) since the '20s?

Zionism would seem to be unique in that regard, in that it sought a homeland for European Jewry, but preferably non-practising and/or "lite" Reform Jews most likely to politically skew towards socialism. It's like a country formed entirely of lapsed Canadian United Church members who discovered in their midst a bunch of Jehovah's Witnesses jamming up the gears of the Great Experiment.

And who spent all day getting paid to read the Bible, not be in the army, and to throw stones at insufficiently observant movie goers during the holy day. I'm not saying Israel shouldn't exist, but some of the premises on which it exists (a great Western-style liberal democracy, our only friend in the Middle East, etc.) can and should be questioned without the questioners being called "anti-Semites".

By that measure, a surprising number of Jews are anti-Semites. Personally, I lump the Jews in with the other dummy "peoples of the Book(s)" as I consider monotheism a sort of mental illness and cultural crippling, but they get props from me because they don't want me in their particular short bus and never hammer on my door to share the "good news" of their zombie sky fairy.

But that faint admiration, like preferring the tard that doesn't fling poo, doesn't really translate into thinking the world needs another theocracy. I mean, I've been to Ireland.
 
2013-01-10 02:55:47 PM  

Xcott: Yes, it does.


it reminds me of a foxnews loyalist. if you don't like what you're hearing, label it 'liberal' or 'socialist' and stop thinking about it, because thinking about it hurts your precious little insulated brain.

it's just a shortcut across any argument that could be made - label it something you can already convince yourself to be absolutely opposed to, then let that opposition be a buffer between you and actually conversing on something you don't like.

it's just a wank.
 
2013-01-10 02:58:10 PM  

Xcott: That's why holocaust deniers, creationists, and 9/11 truthers often try to conceal their group affiliation when spreading their propaganda---because they know that if you expose them, they will be ignored or dismissed as sleazy crackpots.

What you deride as "labeling" really amounts to informing the public that someone has a certain belief system that is known to be less credible. It's actually very useful to know that, and it's quite rational to qualify what they say based on that knowledge.


Or, you can deal with them through the facts.

1) You are a poopy head grand prize winner of 50 cocks in your mouth.

2) Its really easy to dismantle bad arguments from holocaust deniers, creationists, and 9/11 truthers. Not doing so gives them the the feeling that "you people cant handle the truth."
 
2013-01-10 02:58:15 PM  

heap: Valiente:
Won't help me if you're a texting motorcyclist in the States. Move to Southern Ontario and I will support your laudable initiative.

if you're looking for a functioning liver, fark may not be the place to start looking.

even if you somehow snag one, the liver's cirrhosis will have hepatitis.


Eh, in my experience, good example and horrible warning are 50 shades of grey. Hope your liver isn't, also.
 
2013-01-10 02:58:46 PM  

Dr Dreidel: or maybe you do and you're happily anti-Semitic


Based on all available evidence, Amos Quito is a happy anti-semite.

Look, I'm mostly an asshole who posts dickish things in political threads because my brain is wired wrong and I think that posting dickish things in political threads is kind of funny. But I'm pretty sure that's not Amos Quito's problem.

But here's my actual, true opinion about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Back in the 70s and 80s, a lot of people believed very strongly that South African apartheid was morally wrong. A lot of other people said that if you eliminate apartheid, the country will go to shiat. And do you know what? Both sides were right.

And, I do very honestly believe that the right and moral thing to do with the current Israeli-Palestinian conflict is either of two things (1) end apartheid and give Palestinians all the rights and responsibilities of Israeli citizenship, without exception or any of that separate-but-equal crap, or (2) a two state solution, with a fully autonomous Palestinian state.

But I also honestly believe that under both of those solutions, given the current population and cultures in the regions, the country we currently think of as Israel will go to shiat.

So, I certainly don't have any good answers. But I do know for certain that the current status quo is not a good answer either.

As an aside, I do find it very odd that the same people who seem to care very much about Israelis defending themselves against rocket attacks from Gaza don't seem to give a flying fark about the United States killing hundreds of people in Yemen with drones, or the Syrian government slaughtering 50,000 people. Israel seems to get a lot more negative attention than it actually deserves. It's almost like some of the detractors of Israel have ulterior motives.
 
2013-01-10 03:00:23 PM  

JesusJuice: give me doughnuts: Prank Call of Cthulhu: I'm often told, "But they're our ally in the Middle East," to which I always wonder how, exactly, they help us in any way. Does the presence of our friend Israel mean I get cheap gas? No? Do they supply us with anything other than a bunch of Arabs who are mad at us for giving aid to Israel, and a bunch of espionage attempts? No? Then fark 'em.

Resupply port for the 6th Fleet. Logistical and maintenance support for other U.S. forces in the Middle East. Joint training exercises. Technical collaberation on weapons systems.

So we need to support Israel because they help us against people who hate us because we support Israel?


farm1.staticflickr.com

/obscure?
 
2013-01-10 03:03:32 PM  

heap: Xcott: Yes, it does.

it reminds me of a foxnews loyalist. if you don't like what you're hearing, label it 'liberal' or 'socialist' and stop thinking about it, because thinking about it hurts your precious little insulated brain.


it's just a shortcut across any argument that could be made - label it something you can already convince yourself to be absolutely opposed to, then let that opposition be a buffer between you and actually conversing on something you don't like.

Pretty ironic coming from a guy who snipped a post down to 3 words with zero context before attacking it.

So which of those three words has your panties in a knot? I guess the capital letter is a bit reminiscent of Fox News.
 
2013-01-10 03:03:44 PM  

Xcott: heap: Dr Dreidel: // why am I arguing with an anti-Semite?

does labeling somebody to make their arguments go away ever actually work?

Yes, it does.

That's why holocaust deniers, creationists, and 9/11 truthers often try to conceal their group affiliation when spreading their propaganda---because they know that if you expose them, they will be ignored or dismissed as sleazy crackpots.

What you deride as "labeling" really amounts to informing the public that someone has a certain belief system that is known to be less credible. It's actually very useful to know that, and it's quite rational to qualify what they say based on that knowledge.


It also is a tempting hammer to simply smash at any disagreement with. Why engage when you can say "Racist!" and be done?

Well because 30 years on people are tired of your accusations and something that should be a career ending condemnation is just a partisan talking point.
 
2013-01-10 03:05:06 PM  

people: ) Its really easy to dismantle bad arguments from holocaust deniers, creationists, and 9/11 truthers. Not doing so gives them the the feeling that "you people cant handle the truth."


/\ this - opinions aren't kryptonite, and things are rarely as simple as 'label it and ignore it'.

it isn't just about this topic, but it's a prime example...but think of the number of times you've seen it in action - just label somebody a fascist, socialist, commie neocon, and all the sudden the argument you were having is irrelevant. the person has been labeled the thing you are already in stark opposition to in every aspect, so anything they could say is irrelevant - they're those crazybadevilthings you just labeled them, so why would they have anything worthwhile to say?
 
2013-01-10 03:06:55 PM  

heap: /\ this - opinions aren't kryptonite, and things are rarely as simple as 'label it and ignore it'.

it isn't just about this topic, but it's a prime example...but think of the number of times you've seen it in action - just label somebody a fascist, socialist, commie neocon, and all the sudden the argument you were having is irrelevant. the person has been labeled the thing you are already in stark opposition to in every aspect, so anything they could say is irrelevant - they're those crazybadevilthings you just labeled them, so why would they have anything worthwhile to say?


/obama style terrorist fist-bump
 
2013-01-10 03:07:18 PM  

Xcott: Pretty ironic coming from a guy who snipped a post down to 3 words with zero context before attacking it.


what attack? i'm asking a serious question.

you responded to it seriously, so it's not like i malformed the sentence, or anything. it's not a landmine, or a pitfall - it's an honest question. and it's not even remotely limited to just this context, it's just one of the better examples you'll find.

for real, re-read what i've written, and what you've written. make an actual honest assessment on who's panties are twisted and get back to me.
 
2013-01-10 03:07:46 PM  

The Larch: And, I do very honestly believe that the right and moral thing to do with the current Israeli-Palestinian conflict is either of two things (1) end apartheid and give Palestinians all the rights and responsibilities of Israeli citizenship, without exception or any of that separate-but-equal crap, or (2) a two state solution, with a fully autonomous Palestinian state.

But I also honestly believe that under both of those solutions, given the current population and cultures in the regions, the country we currently think of as Israel will go to shiat.


It's really weird when, after days (and weeks, if memory serves) of arguing, your opponent posts something that so closely follows my own views. Either we've been misunderstanding each other (over the internet?!), arguing positions not necessarily our own (hopefully, in an attempt to learn more about our positions) or arguing over a tiny patch of ground (pardon the metaphor).

// I totally agree with that
// except classifying it as "apartheid", and no, I'm not going to debate about that word
 
2013-01-10 03:13:19 PM  

Dr Dreidel: // except classifying it as "apartheid",


Its getting harder and harder to avoid this, considering the hard line on the ethnic state policy of Israel and the ever expanding settlements.
 
2013-01-10 03:15:11 PM  

The Larch:

As an aside, I do find it very odd that the same people who seem to care very much about Israelis defending themselves against rocket attacks from Gaza don't seem to give a flying fark about the United States killing hundreds of people in Yemen with drones, or the Syrian government slaughtering 50,000 people. Israel seems to get a lot more negative attention than it actually deserves. It's almost like some of the detractors of Israel have ulterior motives.


I would agree with this, but it's hard to discern (particularly for blindly pro-Israel types) which proportion of that negativity is old-fashioned anti-Jewish/Zionist/Israeli sentiment or is a reaction against the questionable party line that Israel is the BFF of America, which does seem politically insular and naive and randomly killy with the drones and whatnot much of the time.

Actually, chatting with emigrant Israelis is pretty refreshing. It's quite reminiscent of talking to Irish emigrants who got sick of the priest-ridden close-mindedness prior to the Nineties in the south, and the bloody-minded sectarianism of the North. None of these people hated their cultures or their countries, but felt obliged to leave in order to have a more peaceful, rational life elsewhere (in this case Canada).

And if you really want to hear kvetching, talk to a non-observant Jew living in a largely Orthodox neighbourhood who dares to wash his car on a Saturday. Jews don't try to convert Gentiles, but they sure as hell want slacker Jews to toe the line of Leviticus-observance.

I found this not entirely surprising. Look up "erev": It's purity as defined by string.
 
2013-01-10 03:19:01 PM  

imontheinternet: The Vatican and Dark Ages European kingdoms.


Vatican City State was established in 1929 by the Lateran Treaty.
 
2013-01-10 03:22:19 PM  

TWX: Sometimes I wonder what would happen if Egypt slowly assimilated Gaza and Jordan slowly assimilated the West Bank. Begin with economic investment made favorable by the lower wages for these areas, similar to how the US/Puerto Rico relationship is, and after some economic stability is gained in each respective territory, work toward full citizenship rights in parity with the respective nations, allowing wages to also come into parity with the respective nations, culminating with freedom of movement.


Check out the UN HDI for those areas.

Absorbing them into those countries wouldn't really be an economic windfall for the palestenians.
 
2013-01-10 03:33:04 PM  

Valiente: I found this not entirely surprising. Look up "erev": It's purity as defined by string.


"Erev" means "eve" - Friday is "erev Shabbos" (or "Shabbat", for Sephardis), the day before Passover is "erev Pesach" (the Hebrew name for Passover), etc.

What you mean is "eruv" ("mixing"). Since one of the 39 categories of "work*" prohibited on Shabbat is "carrying from a public domain to a private domain", many communities define a "new private domain" by marking it off with string (which is minimally invasive to humans and other animals) and putting some "community-owned" property (usually a box of matza) in a known location (like the rabbi or synagogue sextant's house). Therefore, all domains public and private are, for the purposes of being allowed to carry on Shabbos, one big public domain.

And now you know.

*"work" in this case meaning "changing the state of things". You can run a marathon and rearrange the furniture in your house all Sabbath long, but turn on a light (i.e. excite some electrons, "light a fire") and you've done wrong.
 
2013-01-10 03:33:04 PM  

Agarista: The dramaturge gave the go-ahead for it to be done in a sci-fi dystopic setting, so perhaps the only thing you liked about it was destroyed. The 'caskets' were huge wheeled coffins that the incorrect suitors were dragged into. Jessica comes down from her balcony in a cherry-picker. All the Christians wore white and silver, with swimcaps to further their de-individualization. The two (and a half - Jessica changed clothes as she ran away) Jews wore full orthodox gear, so that the black and colors would really stand out. Each of the Christians also wore a silver cross, which they hung on Shylock as they walked out on him during the trial. I had a great deal of fun with it, and only removed about 30 words from the second quarto edition.


It took *way* too long for me to realize this was an answer to my question about your experiences with Merchant of Venice...

That sounds pretty amazing, even if it does destroy the core aesthetic of the play... it replaces it with a core aesthetic that might actually be ... better.
 
2013-01-10 03:35:20 PM  

Amos Quito: George Babbitt: Anti-Semitism could not exist in the absence of Semitism.Amos Quito: Dr Dreidel: Amos Quito: Dr Dreidel: Amos Quito:


// why am I arguing with an anti-Semite?


Anti-Semitism could not exist in the absence of Semitism.

The term Semite means a member of any of various ancient and modern Semitic-speaking peoples originating in southwestern Asia, including; Akkadians (Assyrians and Babylonians), Eblaites, Ugarites, Canaanites, Phoenicians (including Carthaginians), Hebrews (Israelites, Judeans and Samaritans), Ahlamu, Arameans, Chaldeans, Amorites, Moabites, Edomites, Hyksos, Arabs, Nabateans, Maganites, Shebans, Sutu, Ubarites, Dilmunites, Bahranis, Maltese, Mandaeans, Sabians, Syriacs, Mhallami, Amalekites and Ethiopian Semites.


Semitism
Sem·i·tism

noun
1. Semitic characteristics, especially the ways, ideas, influence, etc., of the Jewish people.


The revisionist history professionals at work.
 
2013-01-10 03:38:10 PM  

Dr Dreidel: *"work" in this case meaning "changing the state of things". You can run a marathon and rearrange the furniture in your house all Sabbath long, but turn on a light (i.e. excite some electrons, "light a fire") and you've done wrong.


Fortunately, there are Sabbath-approved appliances to help you with that.
 
2013-01-10 03:45:42 PM  

theorellior: Dr Dreidel: *"work" in this case meaning "changing the state of things". You can run a marathon and rearrange the furniture in your house all Sabbath long, but turn on a light (i.e. excite some electrons, "light a fire") and you've done wrong.

Fortunately, there are Sabbath-approved appliances to help you with that.


The pharisees demonstrating what they are best at.
 
2013-01-10 03:49:15 PM  

theorellior: Dr Dreidel: *"work" in this case meaning "changing the state of things". You can run a marathon and rearrange the furniture in your house all Sabbath long, but turn on a light (i.e. excite some electrons, "light a fire") and you've done wrong.

Fortunately, there are Sabbath-approved appliances to help you with that.


Not universally approved, either. I can wax poetic about the differences between "direct cause" and "indirect (but totally predictable) cause" and why one is acceptable and one is not; or why people would go to such lengths to "avoid" prohibitions rather than live within the spirit of them; or why it shouldn't matter to you what silly ways people have built to "get around" sillier prohibitions; or why technology for its own sake is worth developing, but none of that matters.

Look, I get it - weird beliefs beget weird practices. When you only read one page a book, you're going to miss some context - "Patronus" becomes a meaningless silly word and not being able to say "Voldemort" is a very silly thing indeed.
 
2013-01-10 03:53:11 PM  

JesusJuice: give me doughnuts: Diogenes: Gulper Eel: Altair: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

and here we go...

Well, okay, I forgot that a few years back the Danes were ready to start some shiat with Canada over that rock up near Greenland. Thankfully, diplomacy prevailed and we were spared the horrors of the Poutine/Lego War of 2005.

Cute.

But I love how for all the hewing and crying over our sovereignty with regard to the UN, we seem to be ready to sacrifice it for Israel without question or hesitation.

Really? Supporting an ally is now "sacrificing our sovereignty"?

Damn those Japanese for making us give up our sovereignty! And likewise let us curse the Germans and those dastardly villains in the Netherlands!

Why is Israel an ally? What do they do for us besides makimg sure everyone in the ME hates us?



Isn't that enough?  As Oscar Wilde said, "You can always judge a man by the quality of his enemies."
The same thing can be applied to populations. To be hated by that collection of fark-wads is to know that you are on the correct side.
 
2013-01-10 03:55:49 PM  

people: 2) Its really easy to dismantle bad arguments from holocaust deniers, creationists, and 9/11 truthers. Not doing so gives them the the feeling that "you people cant handle the truth."


This is the exact opposite of reality. It doesn't matter whether you dismantle their arguments, because what they want is the continued relevance that comes from being addressed. Denial movements grow through continued exposure, and arguing with them helps them maintain that exposure.

For example, creationists repeatedly challenge biology professors to debates on evolution. Gullible biology professors take the bait, thinking that they'll trounce the creationist on facts. And they will, of course, but the end result is that a creationist gets to come to a college campus and talk to a large audience, get exposure in the student newspaper, and have his people hand out literature outside the lecture hall.

If you see it in terms of a spread of bogus ideas through the population, the creationist wins---which is why they repeatedly call for debates that they will lose. Not because they're deluded, but because it is an effective guerilla tactic to spread propaganda.

You may object that lots more people will see the propaganda as bogus, which is true. But the point of a denial movement is to spread an idea that is so patently false that most people will react that way when they see it anyway. In such a case, the best strategy is simply to get the propaganda in front of as many people as possible, so you hoover up the 40% of people below the derp threshold.
 
2013-01-10 04:02:12 PM  

Xcott: This is the exact opposite of reality. It doesn't matter whether you dismantle their arguments, because what they want is the continued relevance that comes from being addressed.


The 'reality' is that arguments shift and change all the time. Your assertion ignores this.

Take the pro-Israel types, considering the thread.
A few years ago they were arguing that there was no lobby.

Republicans changed their tune on a number of issues. You can't even compare Republicans from 40 years ago to today. We've even seen changes from the last couple of months.

Arguments shift and change all the time. Otherwise, we would still see Greeks arguing over the four essential elements, or the Catholic church still arguing over a geocentric universe.
 
2013-01-10 04:04:15 PM  

Xcott: You may object that lots more people will see the propaganda as bogus, which is true.


basically, this, if the counter argument is good enough and breaks down the bullshiat. It doesnt generally give right away.
 
2013-01-10 04:09:03 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Valiente: I found this not entirely surprising. Look up "erev": It's purity as defined by string.

"Erev" means "eve" - Friday is "erev Shabbos" (or "Shabbat", for Sephardis), the day before Passover is "erev Pesach" (the Hebrew name for Passover), etc.

What you mean is "eruv" ("mixing"). Since one of the 39 categories of "work*" prohibited on Shabbat is "carrying from a public domain to a private domain", many communities define a "new private domain" by marking it off with string (which is minimally invasive to humans and other animals) and putting some "community-owned" property (usually a box of matza) in a known location (like the rabbi or synagogue sextant's house). Therefore, all domains public and private are, for the purposes of being allowed to carry on Shabbos, one big public domain.

And now you know.

*"work" in this case meaning "changing the state of things". You can run a marathon and rearrange the furniture in your house all Sabbath long, but turn on a light (i.e. excite some electrons, "light a fire") and you've done wrong.


I stand corrected. It is indeed "eruv". Still, for a non-Hebrew speaker, I showed a touch of game, I think. Certain Toronto neighbourhoods, the strings flap in the wind for months. It certainly exemplifies the impression that the Orthodox wish to maintain that "people apart" stance.

So what's your position, theologically speaking, on the dodge of getting a Gentile to switch on the lights? Seems like a bit of a dodge to me, but then I've dined with Jews on the shrimp special at Chinese restaurants (the line-ups at Christmas are insane!), so there's apparently a fair bit of Talmudic wiggle room.

And would G_d give you a pass if a candle tipped over and you had to call 911, or would it be out to the street with a shofar and a lot of motivation? Because if there's one way I've found to evaluate religious practice, it's to take its set of rules to their logical conclusions.
 
2013-01-10 04:21:11 PM  
Half of the people who want an Israel only want it so that the prophecy will be fulfilled and God will destroy all of creation and take the chosen few (including them, they hope) away to paradise while the rest suffer eternal horrible torture.
 
2013-01-10 04:22:44 PM  

Valiente: I stand corrected. It is indeed "eruv". Still, for a non-Hebrew speaker, I showed a touch of game, I think. Certain Toronto neighbourhoods, the strings flap in the wind for months. It certainly exemplifies the impression that the Orthodox wish to maintain that "people apart" stance.


That's read into it by others. In point of fact, the eruv could be seen as uniting an entire community (of less than 600,000. A nation-wide eruv wouldn't fly). Depends on who's interpreting, I suppose, and whether they have any axes to grind.

So what's your position, theologically speaking, on the dodge of getting a Gentile to switch on the lights? Seems like a bit of a dodge to me, but then I've dined with Jews on the shrimp special at Chinese restaurants (the line-ups at Christmas are insane!), so there's apparently a fair bit of Talmudic wiggle room.

There's a difference between following the rules and breaking them. The shrimp special was likely dined on by people who couldn't explain what an eruv is at gunpoint, anyone who would ask a non-Jew (I really hate the term "Gentile" for some reason) to switch on the lights is doing so within the bounds of the rules. (The rules, basically, say that Jew and non-Jew must have agreed on this arrangement prior to Friday sundown - a "Shabbos goy" - or else the jew makes a fool of themselves until the non-Jew, of their own volition, turns on the light.)

And would G_d give you a pass if a candle tipped over and you had to call 911, or would it be out to the street with a shofar and a lot of motivation? Because if there's one way I've found to evaluate religious practice, it's to take its set of rules to their logical conclusions.

In the event of even a threat to life or limb, all the rules go out the window save the Big 3: no murder (or causing someone else to lose their life), no sexual immorality, no idolatry. As a matter of fact, I've heard opinions state that anyone who DOESN'T chuck the rule book in that scenario is in violation of the law - "I have given you these statutes that you may live by them", says Deuteronomy.
 
2013-01-10 04:26:32 PM  

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


And they don't have major groups out to discredit them, either.

Note where that quote came from--an organization trying to destroy Israel.

tallguywithglasseson: halfof33: Um, not if the person making the comment is a sworn enemy of South Korea, he might have the same credibility problems as Electronic Intifada, for example.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Abunimah
He's a sworn enemy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Intifada
Having a pro-Palestinian stance = no credibility?
What about the countless numbers of organizations with pro-Isreal stances, do they likewise lack credibility on this issue?
Or is it that only pro-Israel perspectives are credible?


Sorry, but Electronic Intifada is a lot more than just pro-Palestinian. Ignore the Wikipedia page, they're utterly untrustworthy on this sort of matter.
 
2013-01-10 04:39:44 PM  
Take away all the weapons and technology the US paid for and let them fend for themselves.
 
2013-01-10 04:54:49 PM  

Dr Dreidel:

In the event of even a threat to life or limb, all the rules go out the window save the Big 3: no murder (or causing someone else to lose their life), no sexual immorality, no idolatry. As a matter of fact, I've heard opinions state that anyone who DOESN'T chuck the rule book in that scenario is in violatio ...


Yeah, I get that, but with the Gentiles hired to do the Sabbath labour, and with the rabbinically approved "appliances" mentioned, it still seems like we are talking about convenience, not a threat to life and limb. It's a little Clintonesque, to put it mildly. And me, I don't care if a religion to which I don't belong bends its own rules, but I do use the degree of bending to determine the integrity of the premise, particularly when it's linked so strongly to the idea that "observance equals virtue". See Catholics and priestly celibacy versus the widespread buggering of kids/impregnating of plausibly deniable bastards. Or pastors and imams getting a beej after church/mosque rantings against the dreaded hmoo.

And yes, I realize if the Nazis are coming, and your only disguise is snarfing down a pork sausage in a convincingly Aryan fashion, you do it because Yahweh prefer live adherents. What fictional deity wouldn't?

/wouldn't be the wurst time.
 
2013-01-10 05:13:26 PM  

Keizer_Ghidorah: Half of the people who want an Israel only want it so that the prophecy will be fulfilled and God will destroy all of creation and take the chosen few (including them, they hope) away to paradise while the rest suffer eternal horrible torture.



Let me show what lengths anti-semites will go to. Here is an example of gentiles dressing up like Jews and having a fake convention to make it looks like Jews are pushing their interests on our congress. Can you believe it?

www.csmonitor.com

All these goys have fake Jewish names. What they do at this convention is push their secret agenda of end times prophecy on the US congress and then ....get this....BLAME THE JEWS. I think its deplorable for Christians to sink so low.
 
2013-01-10 05:14:03 PM  

Valiente: it still seems like we are talking about convenience, not a threat to life and limb.


What you see as "loopholes", many authorities see as "staying within the letter of the law". It may seem like a violation of the spirit of the law, but remember from Psalms: "The heavens are god's domain, but the land was given to man."

There's a famous story about two Talmudic rabbis arguing a point. The one, so convinced his position is accurate, asks for a heavenly voice to support him. The other, after hearing the voice agree with his adversary, countered: "It is not for the heavens to decide!" - and the Talmud sides with the second rabbi.

The rules were given to people (to live by). The loopholes are part and parcel of the rules - perhaps written in to make things workable, if slightly inconvenient.

// then again, maybe they're just pissing The Big Guy off
// then again, maybe he just wanted us to take 1 mental health day a week, and really doesn't care how you do it
 
2013-01-10 05:27:43 PM  

Dr Dreidel: It's really weird when, after days (and weeks, if memory serves) of arguing, your opponent posts something that so closely follows my own views.


Well, your first mistake is in thinking that I'm your opponent. Your second mistake is assuming that all of my posts are serious. But it's also true that some of my views have evolved in the last few months. Anyhow, here's a TL;DR for you:

Here are some things that I have always believed

Israel is the subject of an over-abundance of criticism in the western media. Israel most certainly takes actions that most residents of modern western liberal democracies would find immoral. But for every pundit kvetching about something Israel has done, I can find a dozen atrocities happening in the world that nobody cares about at all. If some nineteen year old Israeli soldier makes a bad judgement call and handcuffs a rock-throwing Palestinian teenager across the windshield of a bulldozer, it's the worse thing that ever happened in the history of the world. But if the Syrian government, at the highest level, makes the decision to systematically murder 1,500 protesters in an overnight massacre, the world yawns and turns to the sports page.

But I also believe some of the criticism of Israel is deserved. Israel is ostensibly a western liberal democracy, and it should be held to the standards of behavior for a western liberal democracy. When they fail to achieve those standards, the western media should call them on it. I honestly believe that Israel should be held to a higher standard than Syria, because I believe that Israel has earned the privilege of being held to that standard. Nobody has any illusions about what Syria is, and nothing anyone says is going to change Bashar al-Assad's behavior regardless.

Here are some things I have come to believe in the last few months

I've begun to to rethink my apologies for the excessive criticism of Israel by the western media.

My belief that we should expect better behavior from Israel than from its Arab neighbords is, quite frankly, racist. Bashar al-Assad doesn't get a free pass to murder thousands of people because he happens to live in a backwards little autocratic regime. If anything, he deserves more criticism, because he's actually responsible for keeping Syria a backwards little autocratic regime in the first place. Similarly, Hamas doesn't get a free pass to launch katyusha rockets toward Israel just because they're such crappy stupid rockets. If Hamas wants to be taken seriously on the international stage, then they should understand that they can't allow their local rednecks to create international incidents by continuously flinging plumbing supplies filled with sugar and fertilizer across the border. Either arrest and jail the people who are responsible for doing that crap, or don't be surprised when Israel crosses the border and does it for you.

I'm afraid my mind was infected with the prevalent American attitude that most Arabs aren't as culturally advanced as we are, and therefore shouldn't be held to the same standards of behavior that the rest of us are held to. That attitude is, frankly, complete bullshiat. Arabs aren't little children that deserve special coddling and protection. The idea that they're just not ready for universal human rights is just plain wrong. And until Arabs begin to respect a couple of western cultural norms, we're going to continue to have problems. And, two of the big western cultural norms that I want Arabs to respect are: (1) don't kill people for expressing their right to protest, and (2) don't fling plumbing supplies across international borders.

The other reason that I've been rethinking my acceptance of the excessive criticism of Israel by western media is right here on fark. Holy cow, real live honest-to-god anti-semites actually exist. These people aren't just imaginary boogey men; these guys are real, and the real do have some sort of hard-on for Jews. Up until recently, when folks like Sarah Palin make thinly coded anti-semitic comments like blaming our problems on the "west coast media elite and east coast bankers", I just scratched my head and wondered who she imagined she was talking to. Does she have a radio transmitter that broadcasts back to all of her fans in the 1950's or something? But I'm beginning to realize that anti-semitism is an actual real thing, and not more than a little of the anti-israeli sentiment in the media really is just poorly disguised anti-semitism.

but less seriously, and back the to reason that I ever come on fark

if I remember the gist of our conversations in the past, let me veer off into left field and say that I still believe Iron Dome is a political propaganda tool, not a military tool. Building a multi-million dollar toy to knock some plumbing supplies around a bit in the sky before they fall to the ground is really neat. I'm sure it gives the Israeli people a good reason to be happy, and it gives Hamas a good reason to be sad. But any safety it supplies is, at best, due to the indirect effect of discouraging Hamas from throwing more of their crappy rockets your way. But the other danger is now Hamas is going to work harder to get more of the less-crappy rockets from Iran, and sadly those rockets are both much harder for Iron Dome to stop and also have the potential to do serious, targeted damage. I honestly and sincerely hope that I'm wrong about this.
 
2013-01-10 05:35:16 PM  

The Larch: opponent


Rhetorical opponent. As in "sits on the opposite side of the argument from where I do/did". I'm not casting you as some sort of devil or demon, just that in any debate, the two sides necessarily oppose each other. I like arguing - it's never personal here - because WTF can you really learn from someone saying "this"?

Your essay, while well written, provides me no avenue for argumentation. Well done. :)

// also I'm leaving for the day
// my opinions were informed first by having the pro-Israel propaganda thrown at me in school, then living in Israel
// I got far more liberal and realistic on the topic living there
// you can either antagonize your neighbors into moving, or you can reach across the fence
// in geopolitics, 60-70 years of war is what the former gets you
 
2013-01-10 05:44:48 PM  
Hey guys, I'm Jewish and I've been thrown out of 109 different restaurants and grocery stores; they always have some excuse, but I know the real reason is that everyone except me is an evil anti-semite nazi.
 
2013-01-10 05:53:39 PM  

It's Me Bender: Hey guys, I'm Jewish and I've been thrown out of 109 different restaurants and grocery stores; they always have some excuse, but I know the real reason is that everyone except me is an evil anti-semite nazi.


Go home, robot. You're drunk.
 
2013-01-10 05:58:08 PM  

The Larch: Go home, robot. You're drunk.


www.oocities.org

I'm completely sober!

/you nazi
 
2013-01-10 05:59:26 PM  

Mike_1962: RandomRandom: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

So Farking What. Yes, Israel has some puny, insignificant enemies, so do we. Just like us, Israel has nukes. No Arab nation is crazy enough to actually invade them again. No one needs to fear for Israel's continued existence.

Iran you say? No, the Iranian leadership isn't insane. Even if they had nukes they wouldn't nuke Israel. They're typical, pragmatic dictators who've wrapped themselves in whatever shroud was most convenient. In this case, the shroud is fundamentalist Islam. Hitler wasn't really about fascism, he was about power. Stalin wasn't really about communism, he was about power. Iran's mullahs aren't really about Islam, they're about Power. Even the craziest dictators fully realize the ramifications of mutually assured destruction. For proof of that, we need only look to best Korea.

Israel is not a good ally for the United States. Israel does almost nothing to benefit the United States, quite the opposite in fact. Much of the hatred of the US is based on Israeli apartheid of the Palestinians
.
You've provided some good examples of fine US allies. Canada, France and Turkey pull their weight. They're good, solid allies to the US. Israel is not, Israel is a drag on the US. I'm not saying they need to be dumped as an ally, but we do need to cut them loose financially. Israel hasn't needed our financial help in decades, but they continue to receive BILLIONS in US tax payers money each and every year. Fark independents looking for a some budget items to start cutting - how about the 3 to 6 billion dollars (depending on if you count loan guarantees) we give to Israel each and every farking year.

Maybe take a look at Pakistan. A country which is only an ally by a big stretch, which if not actively supporting terrorism, certainly seems to approve of it, and receives significantly more aid.


You're right, Pakistan is an even worse ally, but at least we get some benefit from that arrangement. The money we give Pakistan actively saves the lives of our soldiers in Afghanistan. It's an ugly business all around, but it's probably worth doing until we're mostly out of the region.

So the advertising slogan for continuing to give Israel 6 Billion dollars a year from US taxpayers: "Israel - we're a terrible ally for the United States, but at least we're not as bad as Pakistan".
 
2013-01-10 06:19:09 PM  

Loren: Sorry, but Electronic Intifada is a lot more than just pro-Palestinian. Ignore the Wikipedia page, they're utterly untrustworthy on this sort of matter.


Well that's some strongly worded language (and prefaced with a "sorry"!), so I should ignore whoever you're discrediting.
 
2013-01-10 06:27:38 PM  

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


Who gives a fark about them. This is about our country and our SECDEF.
 
2013-01-10 06:32:08 PM  

The Larch: The other reason that I've been rethinking my acceptance of the excessive criticism of Israel by western media is right here on fark. Holy cow, real live honest-to-god anti-semites actually exist. These people aren't just imaginary boogey men; these guys are real, and the real do have some sort of hard-on for Jews. Up until recently, when folks like Sarah Palin make thinly coded anti-semitic comments like blaming our problems on the "west coast media elite and east coast bankers", I just scratched my head and wondered who she imagined she was talking to. Does she have a radio transmitter that broadcasts back to all of her fans in the 1950's or something? But I'm beginning to realize that anti-semitism is an actual real thing, and not more than a little of the anti-israeli sentiment in the media really is just poorly disguised anti-semitism.


I don't think the press is anti-semitic. Different behavior is expected from Isreal because they in fact proclaim that you are the only modern, western country in the middle east. Plus for Americans we have been your protector and sustainer. We should have a say.

I would say you need to be a little less J-centric. Try seeing the issues from our (goy) perspective. We raise issues of concern and are told we can not discuss them. This is frustrating.
You seem to think you are in such a perilous condition on this earth that even a hint of criticism is seen as a second holocaust.
We raise an uncomfortable issue such as AIPAC and...." YOU RACIST!!". End of discussion, I guess.
It appears to be the favorite tactic. No need to debate.

I mentioned upthread that with Jacob Lew, pretty much everybody of influence in US monetary policy now is Jewish. From my perspective, this noteworthy and a topic of discussion. I mean what are the chances. As I said, If it was all Koreans, there would be no problem at all discussing it in the media.
The Weeners was that I was a neo nazi and should kill myself (seriously). Dr Dreedal replied that gentiles should work harder instead of being jealous. He told me about the "looooooooooooong" tradition of Jewish intellectual life. Damn! All gentiles did was establish Oxford, Harvard and Yale.

I read articles and stories written by Jews about Jewish success and domination of many areas in America. If someone other than a Jew wants to discuss the ramifications of that, It is hate speech.
So it seems were are being trained with constant reinforcement not to mention the Jews. Which reduces us to discussing these issues in whispers. And obviously resentment builds.

covers.feedbooks.net

i.imgur.com

I think you need to worry a little less about anti-semitism and figure once you are on top, people will discuss you. It goes with the territory.
 
2013-01-10 06:41:03 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Valiente: it still seems like we are talking about convenience, not a threat to life and limb.

What you see as "loopholes", many authorities see as "staying within the letter of the law". It may seem like a violation of the spirit of the law, but remember from Psalms: "The heavens are god's domain, but the land was given to man."

There's a famous story about two Talmudic rabbis arguing a point. The one, so convinced his position is accurate, asks for a heavenly voice to support him. The other, after hearing the voice agree with his adversary, countered: "It is not for the heavens to decide!" - and the Talmud sides with the second rabbi.

The rules were given to people (to live by). The loopholes are part and parcel of the rules - perhaps written in to make things workable, if slightly inconvenient.

// then again, maybe they're just pissing The Big Guy off
// then again, maybe he just wanted us to take 1 mental health day a week, and really doesn't care how you do it


Please stop engaging the agenda.
I made a nice comment about lovely French-speaking women who practice sound personal hygiene.
Couldn't that be the thread derailment you choose to follow?
 
2013-01-10 06:46:21 PM  

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


Turkey is actually.
 
2013-01-10 06:49:57 PM  

enry: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

Don't know a lot about the geography of Turkey, do you?


You mean the Greeks and Armenians don't love Turkey? ;)
 
2013-01-10 07:12:38 PM  

Amos Quito: Dr Dreidel: Amos Quito: The goal of the (largely secular) Zionists in creating the "Jewish State" was not to protect Jews from "anti-Semitism", but to prevent Jews from assimilation.

Also from world leaders up and deciding that Jews (in general, or perhaps one group or person in particular) were a nuisance and were no longer required. Over the last 1,000 years, Jews were expelled from pretty much every country in Europe - twice.


Can you spot the common denominator?


Dr. Dreidel: In the last 50 years, half - HALF! - of Jews in Europe were killed by the state,


Since 1963? Did I miss something?


Dr. Dreidel: 2/3 of Polish Jews (where the bulk of the European community was) gone. Untold thousands of relics from pretty much every part of Jewish history over the last 2,000 years were destroyed, burned, looted or otherwise made unavailable.

But no. Jews don't need anything like a homeland - we have the US, for god's sake! A nation whose leaders have believed that Jews killed Jesus, engaged in blood libels (not to mention the virulent anti-Semitism displayed both by officials in government and slack-jawed yokels alike against Werner Brandeis, Caspar Weinberger, and pretty much any Jew in government until at least 1980 - hell, Dick Nixon was a RAGING anti-Semite, slagging his enemies as "damn Jews" on tape), support Israel so Jews can DIAF pre-Jesus and pay lip-service to the "Judeo"-Christian founding of the country by ignoring our religious heritage (California's proposed circumcision ban, for example).


So how do you feel about the idea of Jews fully assimilating? Hard to "persecute" a "group" that does not self-identify (and self-identification is largely the ONLY identifying characteristic of this particular group)


Dr. Dreidel:   I'd prefer it if it wasn't needed (the same way I'd prefer it if no country had an official religion), and I'm presenting worst-case scenarios (so no, I don't expect Holocaust 2 to hit the US' shores anytime soon), but you'd have to be some kind of idiot to not recognize why an ethnic group with a history described by scholars as "the shiat end of the stick" (apologies to Jon Stewart) should have a place to call home, even if it's on the other side of the world.


Again, find the common denominator.


So cultures should not self identify? My first couple of University years were spent with a group of folks who were predominantly Jewish. Good people, good food and great conversationalists. The only distinguishing factors from the general populace were positive.
 
2013-01-10 07:44:41 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Valiente: it still seems like we are talking about convenience, not a threat to life and limb.

What you see as "loopholes", many authorities see as "staying within the letter of the law". It may seem like a violation of the spirit of the law, but remember from Psalms: "The heavens are god's domain, but the land was given to man."

There's a famous story about two Talmudic rabbis arguing a point. The one, so convinced his position is accurate, asks for a heavenly voice to support him. The other, after hearing the voice agree with his adversary, countered: "It is not for the heavens to decide!" - and the Talmud sides with the second rabbi.

The rules were given to people (to live by). The loopholes are part and parcel of the rules - perhaps written in to make things workable, if slightly inconvenient.

// then again, maybe they're just pissing The Big Guy off
// then again, maybe he just wanted us to take 1 mental health day a week, and really doesn't care how you do it


While I'm not on board with Yahweh's Master Plan, not to mention the diss to bacon, I do appreciate Jewish humour as expressed through Talmudic lore. It seems like centuries of oppression from both God and Gentiles (not to mention self-sabotage), the Jewish spirit responds with rueful humour, irony and finely honed sarcasm. It's almost as if the observant Jew says to God "Look, I don't like you, and you clearly don't like me, but it says here we're stuck together, so we might as well get along."

I picture the Jewish deity as Zeus crossed with Mel Brooks. Purely for illustrative purposes, mind.
 
2013-01-10 08:11:12 PM  

people: The 'reality' is that arguments shift and change all the time.


That is also the opposite of reality.

Denial movements are notorious for repeating the same argument over and over with cynical disregard for its truth value. Their arguments change very little over time, because again, it doesn't matter if you can debunk them. Their mission is to just get them out in front of people, many of whom see them for the first time, and some of whom are dumb enough to believe them no matter how clever you think your debunking is.

For example, it's been over 10 years since 9/11 and truthers still repeat the BS argument about Payne Stewart's plane. A guy I know who took part in Occupy Wall Street says he met truthers in Zuccotti park, and they were still talking about how everything fell at "near free-fall speed." They don't move on to other arguments when these are debunked, they just try them on someone else, or even try them an hour later on the same people. The same is true of holocaust deniers and creationists.

These people are in the business of disseminating propaganda, and their strategy is usually to repeat the same lines because they will resonate with some people.

basically, this, if the counter argument is good enough and breaks down the bullshiat

Oh, is that why nobody believes the derp about Obama's birth certificate? Is that why "Loose Change" never sold any copies? Because good counter-arguments dispel bullshiat?

About half the population have 2-digit IQs and can't really tell a bogus argument from an excellent counter-argument. To them, both you and the conspiracy theorist just sound like arguing eggheads, and the winner is usually the one with the right zingers and/or documentary with a poignant or sinister soundtrack.
 
2013-01-10 08:43:09 PM  

The Larch: If Hamas wants to be taken seriously on the international stage, then they should understand that they can't allow their local rednecks to create international incidents by continuously flinging plumbing supplies filled with sugar and fertilizer across the border.


Now that's some funny shiat right there.
Also, one of the more rational Israel posts i've seen.
 
2013-01-10 08:44:46 PM  
When the Turks have the equivalent control of mass media, then we have something to discuss.
 
2013-01-10 09:01:50 PM  

demaL-demaL-yeH: Please stop engaging the agenda.
I made a nice comment about lovely French-speaking women who practice sound personal hygiene.
Couldn't that be the thread derailment you choose to follow?


Don't tell anyone I'm just killing time here. Sharpening some of my writing chops, engaging what and when I want. In a few days, a few weeks - I'm not going to give half a shiat who says what.

On more than one occasion, I've had a pleasant chat, and I've taught and learned even more.

// but keep it under your Jew-hat
 
2013-01-10 09:03:47 PM  

Valiente: While I'm not on board with Yahweh's Master Plan, not to mention the diss to bacon, I do appreciate Jewish humour as expressed through Talmudic lore. It seems like centuries of oppression from both God and Gentiles (not to mention self-sabotage), the Jewish spirit responds with rueful humour, irony and finely honed sarcasm. It's almost as if the observant Jew says to God "Look, I don't like you, and you clearly don't like me, but it says here we're stuck together, so we might as well get along."

I picture the Jewish deity as Zeus crossed with Mel Brooks. Purely for illustrative purposes, mind.


www.umnet.com

// apatheist
 
2013-01-10 09:07:00 PM  

Dr Dreidel: demaL-demaL-yeH: Please stop engaging the agenda.
I made a nice comment about lovely French-speaking women who practice sound personal hygiene.
Couldn't that be the thread derailment you choose to follow?

Don't tell anyone I'm just killing time here. Sharpening some of my writing chops, engaging what and when I want. In a few days, a few weeks - I'm not going to give half a shiat who says what.

On more than one occasion, I've had a pleasant chat, and I've taught and learned even more.

// but keep it under your Jew-hat


Keep it under our כיפות?

But that's where I "hide" my bald spot.
 
2013-01-10 09:52:28 PM  

demaL-demaL-yeH: But that's where I "hide" my bald spot.


I just grew it long. My bald(ing) is now harder to notice.

// also, it helps being tall
 
2013-01-10 10:44:03 PM  

Dr Dreidel: demaL-demaL-yeH: But that's where I "hide" my bald spot.

I just grew it long. My bald(ing) is now harder to notice.

// also, it helps being tall



Take group introspection for a spin.


/Mind the bias
 
2013-01-10 10:51:17 PM  

Valiente: Dr Dreidel: Valiente: it still seems like we are talking about convenience, not a threat to life and limb.

What you see as "loopholes", many authorities see as "staying within the letter of the law". It may seem like a violation of the spirit of the law, but remember from Psalms: "The heavens are god's domain, but the land was given to man."

There's a famous story about two Talmudic rabbis arguing a point. The one, so convinced his position is accurate, asks for a heavenly voice to support him. The other, after hearing the voice agree with his adversary, countered: "It is not for the heavens to decide!" - and the Talmud sides with the second rabbi.

The rules were given to people (to live by). The loopholes are part and parcel of the rules - perhaps written in to make things workable, if slightly inconvenient.

// then again, maybe they're just pissing The Big Guy off
// then again, maybe he just wanted us to take 1 mental health day a week, and really doesn't care how you do it

While I'm not on board with Yahweh's Master Plan, not to mention the diss to bacon, I do appreciate Jewish humour as expressed through Talmudic lore. It seems like centuries of oppression from both God and Gentiles (not to mention self-sabotage), the Jewish spirit responds with rueful humour, irony and finely honed sarcasm. It's almost as if the observant Jew says to God "Look, I don't like you, and you clearly don't like me, but it says here we're stuck together, so we might as well get along."

I picture the Jewish deity as Zeus crossed with Mel Brooks. Purely for illustrative purposes, mind.



Mel Brooks? Really?

I was thinking more Woody Allen.
 
2013-01-11 01:07:09 AM  

jayg22: Dont forget Poland!

// Would have been funnier if I was here earlier.


What will you say when your child asks why didn't you invest in Eastern Poland?
 
2013-01-11 01:24:31 AM  
i1172.photobucket.com
 
2013-01-11 01:43:42 AM  

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


Canada, France and Turkey also don't believe they have a special building permit from God himself that allows them to violate international law and commit war crimes.
 
2013-01-11 02:19:21 AM  

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


Ever hear of the term "Manifest destiny"?

Canada also shares borders with two countries that have massive nuclear arsenals. Even if they don't want to wipe Canada off the face of the earth, the ICBMs would most likely be knocked out of the sky over Canada.
 
2013-01-11 03:06:15 AM  

IrateShadow: To be fair, who wants to live in a warzone in the desert?


What about LA?
 
2013-01-11 05:32:55 AM  

Gulper Eel: surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


Could the OP be any more melodramatic?
 
2013-01-11 11:08:16 AM  

Biological Ali: Gulper Eel: surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

Could the OP be any more melodramatic?


Surrounded by countries that what to drive them from the face of the earth, destroy their works and leave no stone upon stone, destroy every written record of their existence, stampede their children and rape their cattle.
 
2013-01-11 11:41:27 AM  

demaL-demaL-yeH: Dr Dreidel: demaL-demaL-yeH: Please stop engaging the agenda.
I made a nice comment about lovely French-speaking women who practice sound personal hygiene.
Couldn't that be the thread derailment you choose to follow?

Don't tell anyone I'm just killing time here. Sharpening some of my writing chops, engaging what and when I want. In a few days, a few weeks - I'm not going to give half a shiat who says what.

On more than one occasion, I've had a pleasant chat, and I've taught and learned even more.

// but keep it under your Jew-hat

Keep it under our כיפות?

But that's where I "hide" my bald spot.


You know what I haven't had in years? Kippers.

You know what I haven't had? Circumcision.

/what's wrong with a handshake?
 
2013-01-11 11:44:28 AM  

Amos Quito: Valiente: Dr Dreidel: Valiente: it still seems like we are talking about convenience, not a threat to life and limb.

What you see as "loopholes", many authorities see as "staying within the letter of the law". It may seem like a violation of the spirit of the law, but remember from Psalms: "The heavens are god's domain, but the land was given to man."

There's a famous story about two Talmudic rabbis arguing a point. The one, so convinced his position is accurate, asks for a heavenly voice to support him. The other, after hearing the voice agree with his adversary, countered: "It is not for the heavens to decide!" - and the Talmud sides with the second rabbi.

The rules were given to people (to live by). The loopholes are part and parcel of the rules - perhaps written in to make things workable, if slightly inconvenient.

// then again, maybe they're just pissing The Big Guy off
// then again, maybe he just wanted us to take 1 mental health day a week, and really doesn't care how you do it

While I'm not on board with Yahweh's Master Plan, not to mention the diss to bacon, I do appreciate Jewish humour as expressed through Talmudic lore. It seems like centuries of oppression from both God and Gentiles (not to mention self-sabotage), the Jewish spirit responds with rueful humour, irony and finely honed sarcasm. It's almost as if the observant Jew says to God "Look, I don't like you, and you clearly don't like me, but it says here we're stuck together, so we might as well get along."

I picture the Jewish deity as Zeus crossed with Mel Brooks. Purely for illustrative purposes, mind.


Mel Brooks? Really?

I was thinking more Woody Allen.

This

Mel Brooks:

/can accept that this reality was designed by a cross-eyed deity distracted by a juicy rack.
 
2013-01-11 11:44:40 AM  

TheVeryDeadIanMartin: Canada also shares borders with two countries that have massive nuclear arsenals. Even if they don't want to wipe Canada off the face of the earth, the ICBMs would most likely be knocked out of the sky over Canada.


Really?

Biological Ali: Gulper Eel: surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

Could the OP be any more melodramatic?


Now you're just trolling.
 
2013-01-11 11:46:08 AM  
Dammit, lying sack of preview.

This Mel Brooks.
www.morethings.com
 
2013-01-11 12:41:45 PM  

Stone Meadow: Biological Ali: Gulper Eel: surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

Could the OP be any more melodramatic?

Now you're just trolling.


wat
 
2013-01-11 04:25:56 PM  

Incog_Neeto: Biological Ali: Gulper Eel: surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

Could the OP be any more melodramatic?

Surrounded by countries that what to drive them from the face of the earth, destroy their works and leave no stone upon stone, destroy every written record of their existence, stampede their children and rape their cattle.


Eat woman, fark motorcycle, ride pizza.
 
2013-01-11 04:48:43 PM  

Valiente: JesusJuice: give me doughnuts: Prank Call of Cthulhu: I'm often told, "But they're our ally in the Middle East," to which I always wonder how, exactly, they help us in any way. Does the presence of our friend Israel mean I get cheap gas? No? Do they supply us with anything other than a bunch of Arabs who are mad at us for giving aid to Israel, and a bunch of espionage attempts? No? Then fark 'em.

Resupply port for the 6th Fleet. Logistical and maintenance support for other U.S. forces in the Middle East. Joint training exercises. Technical collaberation on weapons systems.

So we need to support Israel because they help us against people who hate us because we support Israel?

[farm1.staticflickr.com image 640x480]

/obscure?


Help him. HELP HIM!!
 
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