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(The Daily Beast)   To understand how extraordinary this obsession with Israel is, just imagine the uproar if any senator raised objections to a US cabinet nominee over, say their "commitment" to Canada, France or Turkey   ( andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com) divider line
    More: Obvious, Turkey  
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7232 clicks; posted to Main » on 10 Jan 2013 at 11:10 AM (4 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-10 08:17:51 AM  
Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.
 
2013-01-10 08:29:06 AM  
no. farking. shiat.
 
2013-01-10 09:22:30 AM  

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


and here we go...
 
2013-01-10 09:35:14 AM  

Altair: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

and here we go...


Well, okay, I forgot that a few years back the Danes were ready to start some shiat with Canada over that rock up near Greenland. Thankfully, diplomacy prevailed and we were spared the horrors of the Poutine/Lego War of 2005.
 
2013-01-10 09:40:00 AM  

Gulper Eel: Altair: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

and here we go...

Well, okay, I forgot that a few years back the Danes were ready to start some shiat with Canada over that rock up near Greenland. Thankfully, diplomacy prevailed and we were spared the horrors of the Poutine/Lego War of 2005.


Cute.

But I love how for all the hewing and crying over our sovereignty with regard to the UN, we seem to be ready to sacrifice it for Israel without question or hesitation.
 
2013-01-10 09:57:33 AM  

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


Well, France.
 
2013-01-10 09:59:08 AM  

Diogenes: Gulper Eel: Altair: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

and here we go...

Well, okay, I forgot that a few years back the Danes were ready to start some shiat with Canada over that rock up near Greenland. Thankfully, diplomacy prevailed and we were spared the horrors of the Poutine/Lego War of 2005.

Cute.

But I love how for all the hewing and crying over our sovereignty with regard to the UN, we seem to be ready to sacrifice it for Israel without question or hesitation.


Really? Supporting an ally is now "sacrificing our sovereignty"?

Damn those Japanese for making us give up our sovereignty! And likewise let us curse the Germans and those dastardly villains in the Netherlands!
 
2013-01-10 10:01:18 AM  

God Is My Co-Pirate: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

Well, France.


They have enough hot women that they can stay. Besides, nobody wants a giant Luxembourg.
 
2013-01-10 10:06:47 AM  

give me doughnuts: Diogenes: Gulper Eel: Altair: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

and here we go...

Well, okay, I forgot that a few years back the Danes were ready to start some shiat with Canada over that rock up near Greenland. Thankfully, diplomacy prevailed and we were spared the horrors of the Poutine/Lego War of 2005.

Cute.

But I love how for all the hewing and crying over our sovereignty with regard to the UN, we seem to be ready to sacrifice it for Israel without question or hesitation.

Really? Supporting an ally is now "sacrificing our sovereignty"?

Damn those Japanese for making us give up our sovereignty! And likewise let us curse the Germans and those dastardly villains in the Netherlands!


No.  It is, of course, a matter of degree.
 
2013-01-10 10:10:41 AM  

Gulper Eel: ... surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


"But enough about the Palestinian occupied territories!"

i.imgur.com


/it begins
 
2013-01-10 10:25:15 AM  

Somacandra: Gulper Eel: ... surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

"But enough about the Palestinian occupied territories!"

[i.imgur.com image 250x200]


/it begins


Yeah. If they could finally push all the Egyptian and Jordanian squatters out of Gaza and the West Bank, Israel could finally stabilize its borders.
 
2013-01-10 10:36:26 AM  

Gulper Eel: God Is My Co-Pirate: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

Well, France.

They have enough hot women that they can stay. Besides, nobody wants a giant Luxembourg.


Canada's got some damn fine women too.   Ahh, Montreal...
 
2013-01-10 10:56:17 AM  
America led the UN in establishing Israel.  They are family.
 
2013-01-10 11:07:26 AM  
So Fark is a mouthpiece for the Electronic Intifada now?
 
2013-01-10 11:11:41 AM  

PowerSlacker: So Fark is a mouthpiece for the Electronic Intifada now?


Yes, that's exactly right, just like it's the mouthpiece for WorldNetDaily, HuffingtonPost, American Thinker, Reason, Daily Kos and the Daily Caller.
 
2013-01-10 11:11:44 AM  
o.onionstatic.com
 
2013-01-10 11:12:33 AM  

give me doughnuts: Damn those Japanese for making us give up our sovereignty! And likewise let us curse the Germans and those dastardly villains in the Netherlands!


So there are US presidential appointees getting put through the wringer because theyre not sufficiently pro-Dutch, pro-Japanese, or pro-German enough?

Way to miss the point.
 
2013-01-10 11:13:29 AM  
Who cares. Once the Baby Boomer generation is dead the Israel lobby will be powerless.
 
2013-01-10 11:13:51 AM  
Interesting tidbit, from link in TFA, Elliott Abrams from the Council on Foreign Relations went all in on NPR and said Hagel is an anti-Semite. That's what you get for not supporting "our" family.

http://mondoweiss.net/2013/01/elliott-abrams-semite.html
 
2013-01-10 11:14:40 AM  
You guys are all way off base, it has way more to do with pandering to a religious group for votes than actually protecting any other nations.
 
2013-01-10 11:14:50 AM  

God Is My Co-Pirate: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

Well, France.


Which is why we have had troops stationed in Germany for 60 years.

We used to have bases in France, but deGaulle kicked us out when he left NATO.
 
2013-01-10 11:14:54 AM  
Israel will be toast soon......in a few decades there will be more Israeli citizens of Arab descent than Jews. A recent poll of young Israelis(under 35) shows that most would like to leave, and most of the majority would like to go to Europe.
 
2013-01-10 11:15:11 AM  
Ali Abunimah of Electronic Intifada, sounds legit.

"To understand how extraordinary this obsession with South Korea is, just imagine the uproar if any senator raised objections to a US cabinet nominee over, say their "commitment" to Canada, France or Turkey who are actually members of NATO."

Signed, The Tubby Guy from Best Korea.
 
2013-01-10 11:15:40 AM  

Because People in power are Stupid: [o.onionstatic.com image 600x411]


I have it on good authority that Seth ate a non-Kosher hot dog at a Tigers game once.
 
2013-01-10 11:15:44 AM  
Go U.S.A never stop sucking that sweet sweet Isreali cock.
 
2013-01-10 11:16:15 AM  

tallguywithglasseson: Interesting tidbit, from link in TFA, Elliott Abrams from the Council on Foreign Relations went all in on NPR and said Hagel is an anti-Semite. That's what you get for not supporting "our" family.

http://mondoweiss.net/2013/01/elliott-abrams-semite.html


The follow-up makes that bit even more ridiculous

But Abrams wrote in his book Faith or Fear (1997)
Outside the land of Israel, there can be no doubt that Jews, faithful to the covenant between God and Abraham, are to stand apart from the nation in which they live. It is the very nature of being Jewish to be apart-except in Israel-from the rest of the population....
 
2013-01-10 11:17:17 AM  
We gave ( and continue to give) the Israelies their country, unlimited funds and unlimited access to men, material and technology; what else could they possibly want?

/ don't get me wrong; I like the Israelies, especially the 18 year old female variety

// sometimes, I wonder if we should just let the Israelies have at the rest of the Middle East; the other countries wouldn't stand a chance
 
2013-01-10 11:17:40 AM  

pag1107: You guys are all way off base, it has way more to do with pandering to a religious group for votes than actually protecting any other nations.


THIS
 
2013-01-10 11:17:58 AM  
Yeah, those countries you named are all useless. Unlike Israel.
 
2013-01-10 11:18:03 AM  

people: give me doughnuts: Damn those Japanese for making us give up our sovereignty! And likewise let us curse the Germans and those dastardly villains in the Netherlands!

So there are US presidential appointees getting put through the wringer because theyre not sufficiently pro-Dutch, pro-Japanese, or pro-German enough?

Way to miss the point.


Way not to read, or understand, the original post I was responding to.
 
2013-01-10 11:18:28 AM  

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


Funny, I've been told countless times by Americans that if not for them, Canada would have been conquered several times over now.
 
2013-01-10 11:18:53 AM  

halfof33: Ali Abunimah of Electronic Intifada, sounds legit.

"To understand how extraordinary this obsession with South Korea is, just imagine the uproar if any senator raised objections to a US cabinet nominee over, say their "commitment" to Canada, France or Turkey who are actually members of NATO."

Signed, The Tubby Guy from Best Korea.


That it's laughable a nomination might be scuttled (and the nominee be called racist in the process) for past criticism of South Korean policy and lobbying power... kind of supports the point. Not sure if that's what you were trying to do.
 
2013-01-10 11:18:58 AM  

iheartscotch: We gave ( and continue to give) the Israelies their country, unlimited funds and unlimited access to men, material and technology; what else could they possibly want?


I just realized that they're playing Command & Conquer with all the cheat codes on and the still can't win.
 
2013-01-10 11:19:06 AM  

BravadoGT: America led the UN in establishing Israel.  They are family.


But I have been assured that we hate the UN.
 
2013-01-10 11:19:34 AM  

tricycleracer: the


*they
 
2013-01-10 11:19:45 AM  
Charges of antisemitism is the "playing the race card" of the right.
 
2013-01-10 11:20:22 AM  
I am a Zionist, I believe the Jewish people should have their own country.

That being said, Israel today is a shameful apartheid state and I don't want my money supporting the current Israeli regime.
 
2013-01-10 11:20:40 AM  

Fissile: Israel will be toast soon......in a few decades there will be more Israeli citizens of Arab descent than Jews. A recent poll of young Israelis(under 35) shows that most would like to leave, and most of the majority would like to go to Europe.


To be fair, who wants to live in a warzone in the desert?
 
2013-01-10 11:20:42 AM  

BravadoGT: America led the UN in establishing Israel.  They are family.


I don't have any family that I've financially supported for 65 years.
 
2013-01-10 11:20:56 AM  

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


What are you talking about? We surround Canada thanks to Alaska.
 
2013-01-10 11:21:01 AM  
I'm often told, "But they're our ally in the Middle East," to which I always wonder how, exactly, they help us in any way. Does the presence of our friend Israel mean I get cheap gas? No? Do they supply us with anything other than a bunch of Arabs who are mad at us for giving aid to Israel, and a bunch of espionage attempts? No? Then fark 'em.
 
2013-01-10 11:21:02 AM  

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


Now why is that ...?

i560.photobucket.com
 
2013-01-10 11:22:42 AM  

ITGreen: Gulper Eel: God Is My Co-Pirate: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

Well, France.

They have enough hot women that they can stay. Besides, nobody wants a giant Luxembourg.

Canada's got some damn fine women too.   Ahh, Montreal...


We start out Montreal and we end up Trois-Rivières. It's the Canadian Curse.
 
2013-01-10 11:23:09 AM  
You know how I know you didn't read the article?
 
2013-01-10 11:23:18 AM  

Uncle Tractor: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

Now why is that ...?

[i560.photobucket.com image 640x453]


uh, there are arab jews. about 50-75% of jews are arabs. That's why it's so ridiculous that they want to treat the country as an enemy and/or different when they're basically all the same people with the same hereditary background.
 
2013-01-10 11:24:01 AM  

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


Don't know a lot about the geography of Turkey, do you?
 
2013-01-10 11:24:19 AM  
i.imgur.com
 
2013-01-10 11:24:29 AM  

Uncle Tractor: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

Now why is that ...?

[i560.photobucket.com image 640x453]


That's kind of like saying "How does one establish a Muslim country where 90% of the population is Persian."

One is a religion, one is an ethnicity. The two don't always go together.
 
2013-01-10 11:24:53 AM  

Prank Call of Cthulhu: I'm often told, "But they're our ally in the Middle East," to which I always wonder how, exactly, they help us in any way. Does the presence of our friend Israel mean I get cheap gas? No? Do they supply us with anything other than a bunch of Arabs who are mad at us for giving aid to Israel, and a bunch of espionage attempts? No? Then fark 'em.


They help us by attempting to meddle in our elections while at the same time making any diplomacy in the middle east about a million times more difficult. We are the battered wife in a dysfunctional relationship with an unemployed plumber who is a giant douchbag to everyone on the block.
 
2013-01-10 11:25:26 AM  

Uncle Tractor



Answer: You kick their ass in a war. Like we did. And just about every other nation did at one time or another.
 
2013-01-10 11:25:36 AM  
www.smarter.org

Don't bother clicking here, nothing will happen...
 
2013-01-10 11:25:52 AM  
Unless I'm mistaken, it's pretty much the right wing who's obsessed with Israel, and they have this goofy habit of conflating 'Netanyahu' and 'Likud' with 'Israel' ... right?

So, if the Repub party implodes like we're hoping it will and we get to the point where people are ashamed to admit in public that they used to be Teabaggers ... problem solved?
 
2013-01-10 11:25:59 AM  

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


Not untrue but Israel's situation isn't especially unique, and we don't treat other nations in the same situation with that same consideration.

You're forgetting how useful the IDF is in field testing next generation military hardware etc. I'm sure that at first guilt over letting the Holocaust happen may have played a part in our early foreign policy with them but these days pragmatism (or at least what a lot of policymakers feel is the more pragmatic approach) rules our policy with Israel.

Bear in mind I don't necessarily agree that this is all a good idea, or at least I wouldn't mind if the IDF/Israel in general wasn't so gungho about using physical force and were more interested in diplomacy (one party needs to be the "bigger man" here, might as well be the one that has the same gear our dudes use).
 
2013-01-10 11:26:04 AM  

Zeno-25: [i.imgur.com image 720x540]


They're off by a factor of 10, and almost all of it is spent here, at defense contractors.
 
2013-01-10 11:26:42 AM  
Okay, since I'm too lazy to dig but still care to know, is Hagel's Jewish position:

A. He supports giving them money and materiel consistently, but is offended that such a tiny minority holds so much sway that any criticism of any action of Israel (settlement building, slum bombardment, etc...) is off limits

OR

B. He supports giving them money and materiel consistently, but they're still damn, dirty Jews that run Hollywood and have ruined everything.

I know he's supported them with legislation, it is the "Israel critic" versus "I hate Jews" position that needs clarification for me.
 
2013-01-10 11:26:55 AM  
And she questions their commitment to Sparkle Motion.

3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-01-10 11:27:03 AM  

vernonFL: I am a Zionist, I believe the Jewish people should have their own country.


The most sensible place by far to establish a Jewish state following WW2 would have been Florida.
 
2013-01-10 11:27:23 AM  

pag1107: You guys are all way off base, it has way more to do with pandering to a religious group for votes than actually protecting any other nations.


i216.photobucket.com

Obama got 69% of the Jewish vote.
It must not be working.
 
2013-01-10 11:28:04 AM  

tallguywithglasseson: That it's laughable a nomination might be scuttled (and the nominee be called racist in the process) for past criticism of South Korean policy and lobbying power... kind of supports the point. Not sure if that's what you were trying to do.


Um, not if the person making the comment is a sworn enemy of South Korea, he might have the same credibility problems as Electronic Intifada, for example.
 
2013-01-10 11:28:24 AM  
We also weren't part of a group that created Canada, Frnace or Turkey out of thin air.
 
2013-01-10 11:28:39 AM  

farkingatwork: uh, there are arab jews. about 50-75% of jews are arabs. That's why it's so ridiculous that they want to treat the country as an enemy and/or different when they're basically all the same people with the same hereditary background.


Before the aliyahs, the jewish (sephardim/mizrahim) population was less than 10% of the total, and the ashkenazi population (the zionists at the time) was ca 0%.
 
2013-01-10 11:29:20 AM  
If that person put the interest of Canada, France, or Turkey ahead of the US, then yes, that's a major farking problem.
 
2013-01-10 11:29:33 AM  

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


Israel has nukes. No one is going to wipe them off the map anytime soon.

Furthermore, this isn't our problem. We only support Israel because bronze age death cultists think it's necessary in order to have the second coming and the end of days.
 
2013-01-10 11:29:37 AM  
Good idea. Giving Jews money.
They won't ask for more.
 
2013-01-10 11:29:57 AM  
i49.tinypic.com
 
2013-01-10 11:30:17 AM  

tricycleracer: iheartscotch: We gave ( and continue to give) the Israelies their country, unlimited funds and unlimited access to men, material and technology; what else could they possibly want?

I just realized that they're playing Command & Conquer with all the cheat codes on and the still can't win.


Wellll... I'd say, rather, that they are playing Total War with all of the cheat codes; but, they allied themselves with a very powerful, but extremely internally contentious country early on. The effect being; they can't attack people without their ally sending them strongly worded letters or threatening to cut the support they give.

/ actually happened to me once when I played Empire- Total War
 
2013-01-10 11:31:30 AM  

give me doughnuts: If they could finally push all the Egyptian and Jordanian squatters


i.imgur.com


I doubt it. The vast majority of people there, generations after generation are descended from the people that lived there under Ottoman regional rule--known as Palestinians.Deporting the few with Jordanian or Egyptian citizenship wouldn't help.

 
2013-01-10 11:31:34 AM  

Prank Call of Cthulhu: I'm often told, "But they're our ally in the Middle East," to which I always wonder how, exactly, they help us in any way. Does the presence of our friend Israel mean I get cheap gas? No? Do they supply us with anything other than a bunch of Arabs who are mad at us for giving aid to Israel, and a bunch of espionage attempts? No? Then fark 'em.


Resupply port for the 6th Fleet. Logistical and maintenance support for other U.S. forces in the Middle East. Joint training exercises. Technical collaberation on weapons systems.
 
2013-01-10 11:32:52 AM  
Just to posit a thought experiment, if Bibi and the Likud lost the next election in a wave of public disgust, a new coalition government was assembled based on reopening the Oslo Accords, and their first act was to start dismantling settlements in the West Bank, how many of the Farkers crying "Electronic Intifada!" here would suddenly fall silent or, indeed, start screaming loudly that Israel had lost its way and we should withdraw all support?
 
2013-01-10 11:34:14 AM  

halfof33: Um, not if the person making the comment is a sworn enemy of South Korea, he might have the same credibility problems as Electronic Intifada, for example.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Abunimah
He's a sworn enemy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Intifada
Having a pro-Palestinian stance = no credibility?
What about the countless numbers of organizations with pro-Isreal stances, do they likewise lack credibility on this issue?
Or is it that only pro-Israel perspectives are credible?
 
2013-01-10 11:34:20 AM  

doubled99: Answer: You kick their ass in a war. Like we did. And just about every other nation did at one time or another.


Exactly; you invade and make your living space space on the conquered land ...and that's why their neighbors hate them.
 
2013-01-10 11:34:34 AM  

Because People in power are Stupid: [o.onionstatic.com image 600x411]


Lord above, you sure named yourself correctly
 
2013-01-10 11:35:14 AM  

Incog_Neeto: Go U.S.A never stop sucking that sweet sweet Isreali cock.



Hey, Israel is the Rothschild's baby, and they happen to hold the mortgage on the United States of America.

Show some respect.
 
2013-01-10 11:35:21 AM  

people: tallguywithglasseson: Interesting tidbit, from link in TFA, Elliott Abrams from the Council on Foreign Relations went all in on NPR and said Hagel is an anti-Semite. That's what you get for not supporting "our" family.

http://mondoweiss.net/2013/01/elliott-abrams-semite.html

The follow-up makes that bit even more ridiculous

But Abrams wrote in his book Faith or Fear (1997)
Outside the land of Israel, there can be no doubt that Jews, faithful to the covenant between God and Abraham, are to stand apart from the nation in which they live. It is the very nature of being Jewish to be apart-except in Israel-from the rest of the population....



There is still much for us to learn about being an Anti-Semite vs. not being an Anti-Semite as instructed by Fark Jews™ but I would guess it would not be Kosher for a gentile to make that same observation (how does someone that thinks like that get a US security clearance?). If one of us gentiles were to say that, would we be instructed it is a "that old canard" that anti-semites run out? And would noticing that make one a "viscious anti-semite" or a "vile anti-semite"?
 
2013-01-10 11:35:29 AM  

Banned on the Run: Obama got 69% of the Jewish vote.


Money Money Mooonaay.

Commentary
Text on mondoweiss
Estimates of the amount of money Jews have donated to American politicians, parties, and causes are even less accurate than the loose estimates of Jewish votes, but there is little question that the figure is staggering. It is impossible to determine precisely the grand total contributed to only presidential candidates by individual Jewish donors, but it may well be as much or more than one third of all Democratic money and a lesser though still impressive percentage of the funds raised by Republicans


Washington Post
Democratic candidates depend on Jewish supporters to supply as much as 60 percent of the money raised from private sources. Any significant reduction in the financial support will weaken Democratic candidates and the Democratic Party organizations.

Jerusaem Post

Jewish Telegraph Agency
Where the Jews stand on Obama matters not just because of the Jewish vote, which is significant in key swing states such as Florida, Pennsylvania and Ohio, but also because of Jewish money. The 2012 presidential election will be the first since a Supreme Court ruling allowing unlimited corporate giving to candidates. The Obama campaign has said it will need more money than ever because big business tends to lean Republican.

Obama captured 78 percent of the Jewish vote in 2008, and estimates over the years have reckoned that Jewish donors provide between one-third and two-thirds of the party's money.
Podhoretz
Where it matters-where Obama's team is clearly worried and where it is seeking to come up with counterarguments to give to surrogates-is money. It's one thing to cast a single vote as the member of a small minority community to which outsized attention is paid. But Jews are uncommonly generous givers, both philanthropically and politically, and while they might still cast a vote for Obama, they might give him nothing. Or half what they gave him in 2008.
 
2013-01-10 11:35:29 AM  

david_gaithersburg: If that person put the interest of Canada, France, or Turkey ahead of the US, then yes, that's a major farking problem.


Yes, because that is clearly what is happening.
 
2013-01-10 11:36:26 AM  
'Quote For The Day' from Ali Abunimah of Electronic Intifada ? oh man. This is brilliant. They should be asking about "the Arab obsession with Israel and Arabs' incessant blaming of the Jews for everything that's wrong in their world".
 
2013-01-10 11:36:40 AM  

Uncle Tractor

doubled99: Answer: You kick their ass in a war. Like we did. And just about every other nation did at one time or another.

Exactly; you invade and make your living space space on the conquered land ...and that's why their neighbors hate them.


So you understand. Then why the naive question?
 
2013-01-10 11:37:13 AM  

Clemkadidlefark: Lord above, you sure named yourself correctly


A. He's not in power, 2. That's a pretty obvious Onion graphic and III. pot, meet kettle.
 
2013-01-10 11:37:35 AM  
We should use this dialogue as an opportunity...

We continue aid as we have done before for Israel if they will enjoin the Jewish people to tip at least 15% in our restaurants.
 
2013-01-10 11:39:05 AM  

doubled99: Yeah, those countries you named are all useless. Unlike Israel.


As I said to my ex "You say that now, but by this time next year you'll begging for my soft wood!"
 
2013-01-10 11:39:54 AM  
It's because they need the temple to be re-built in Jerusalem before Jesus can come back.

I swear to God I think this is the underlying reason.
 
2013-01-10 11:40:02 AM  
Am I right in assuming that all supporters of a Jewish state are also supporters of a Kurdish state?
 
2013-01-10 11:40:30 AM  
It's so nice to see that "Jews are rich bankers who control the world's economy" is still a thing people believe.

// not all of you
// but enough that I occasionally want to move back to Israel
// paranoia strikes deep...
 
2013-01-10 11:41:24 AM  

Agarista: Am I right in assuming that all supporters of a Jewish state are also supporters of a Kurdish state?


That depends, do they love Jesus?
 
2013-01-10 11:41:36 AM  
Religion's a hell of a drug, subby.
 
2013-01-10 11:41:40 AM  

pag1107: You guys are all way off base, it has way more to do with pandering to a religious group for votes than actually protecting any other nations.


Exactly. Evangelical Christians are a paranoid death cult that are praying for the day that their messiah to comes back and destroys the world. And somehow, they're convinced that by supporting Israel, they will convince their crazy and capricious god to being the complete and total annihilation of the world a little earlier.

It is sad that American politics are so heavily influenced by a delusional warlike death cult, but there you go. You have to live with reality.
 
2013-01-10 11:42:46 AM  

ph0rk: Agarista: Am I right in assuming that all supporters of a Jewish state are also supporters of a Kurdish state?

That depends, do they love Jesus?


about equally...
 
2013-01-10 11:43:09 AM  

vernonFL: I am a Zionist, I believe the Jewish people should have their own country.



Why?

Zionism has brought nothing but trouble to Jews and Gentiles alike - especially in the region.

The goal of the (largely secular) Zionists in creating the "Jewish State" was not to protect Jews from "anti-Semitism", but to prevent Jews from assimilation.

The latter being the perceived as the greater "threat", by far.
 
2013-01-10 11:43:20 AM  

vernonFL: I am a Zionist, I believe the Jewish people should have their own country.

That being said, Israel today is a shameful apartheid state and I don't want my money supporting the current Israeli regime.


I believe my stepson should have his own place to live.

That being said, I'm disgusted with the little idiot and am not about to put him up in my house or pay his rent.

/that, and I'm cheap
 
2013-01-10 11:43:43 AM  

Pincy: pag1107: You guys are all way off base, it has way more to do with pandering to a religious group for votes than actually protecting any other nations.

THIS


this again.

interesting-im posting this from my kindle paperwhite. it works. just no gifs.
i farking love this reader. shattered my phone screen so i thought I'd try. i can still use the phone though.
yes i know nobody cares.
 
2013-01-10 11:44:00 AM  

tallguywithglasseson: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Abunimah
He's a sworn enemy? IWAS TALKING ABOUT OF ISRAEL (and maybe indulged in a wee bit of hyperbole, so shoot me)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_Intifada
Having a pro-Palestinian stance = no credibility?

CREDIBILITY PROBLEM ON TOPICS OF USA INVOLVEMENT IN ISRAEL

What about the countless numbers of organizations with pro-Isreal stances, do they likewise lack credibility on this issue?

YES CREDIBILITY PROBLEM ON TOPICS OF USA INVOLVEMENT IN ISRAEL
?


In other words, I'd take a what either says with a big grain of salt. Thanks for asking!
 
2013-01-10 11:44:28 AM  
Israel is a US ally. Israel is opposed by the same people who oppose America. Israel is under ongoing threat. That is why the questions are germane
 
2013-01-10 11:45:05 AM  
i have a problem with any theocracy - be it israel, iran, saudi arabia or the republican vision for the united states.
 
2013-01-10 11:45:11 AM  

Crotchrocket Slim: Bear in mind



i141.photobucket.com
No thanks!
 
2013-01-10 11:45:25 AM  

Dr Dreidel: It's so nice to see that "Jews are rich bankers who control the world's economy" is still a thing people believe.


Hyperbole.

Rich? Yes. Give a lot of money to US election campaigns? Yes.
 
2013-01-10 11:46:27 AM  
Serious question for the historians and political scientists here (if any):

Are there any historical precedents for a tiny nation exerting so much influence over both the internal and external policies of an almost infinitely larger and more powerful nation?
 
2013-01-10 11:47:27 AM  

give me doughnuts: Resupply port for the 6th Fleet. Logistical and maintenance support for other U.S. forces in the Middle East. Joint training exercises. Technical collaberation on weapons systems.


Those don't strike me as particularly compelling reasons. There's lots of other ports in the Med. I don't know that a good answer to "why do we do stuff with them" is "because they do joint training exercises with us".
 
2013-01-10 11:47:38 AM  
Young Jewish liberals don't believe AIPAC really exists (its a fictional conspiracy cabal dreamed up by deluded anti-semites). Congress votes the way it does because of all those knuckle dragging End of Times Christians.

No, really, this is what they believe!

westernrifleshooters.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-01-10 11:47:46 AM  

Vectron: people: tallguywithglasseson: Interesting tidbit, from link in TFA, Elliott Abrams from the Council on Foreign Relations went all in on NPR and said Hagel is an anti-Semite. That's what you get for not supporting "our" family.

http://mondoweiss.net/2013/01/elliott-abrams-semite.html

The follow-up makes that bit even more ridiculous

But Abrams wrote in his book Faith or Fear (1997)
Outside the land of Israel, there can be no doubt that Jews, faithful to the covenant between God and Abraham, are to stand apart from the nation in which they live. It is the very nature of being Jewish to be apart-except in Israel-from the rest of the population....


There is still much for us to learn about being an Anti-Semite vs. not being an Anti-Semite as instructed by Fark Jews™ but I would guess it would not be Kosher for a gentile to make that same observation (how does someone that thinks like that get a US security clearance?). If one of us gentiles were to say that, would we be instructed it is a "that old canard" that anti-semites run out? And would noticing that make one a "viscious anti-semite" or a "vile anti-semite"?



Yes.
 
2013-01-10 11:47:58 AM  

qualtrough: Serious question for the historians and political scientists here (if any):

Are there any historical precedents for a tiny nation exerting so much influence over both the internal and external policies of an almost infinitely larger and more powerful nation?


Uhhh, the Vatican?
 
2013-01-10 11:48:07 AM  
Correct me if I'm wrong, but when Israel was established after WWII, The USA was against it and was outvoted. How did we end up holding that bag of shiat.
 
2013-01-10 11:48:13 AM  
This has nothing to do with Israel and everything to do with setting up the conditions for the Second Coming.

Support for Israel only goes as far as seeing them burn in the Apocalypse.
 
2013-01-10 11:48:42 AM  

Your Silence is Killing Kurds: Israel is a US ally. Israel is opposed by the same people who oppose America. Israel is under ongoing threat. That is why the questions are germane


upload.wikimedia.org

I don't see how germanium hydrate fits into this
 
2013-01-10 11:48:50 AM  

qualtrough: Are there any historical precedents for a tiny nation exerting so much influence over both the internal and external policies of an almost infinitely larger and more powerful nation?


The Vatican and Dark Ages European kingdoms.
 
2013-01-10 11:49:52 AM  
Dont forget Poland!

// Would have been funnier if I was here earlier.
 
2013-01-10 11:50:03 AM  

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


So Farking What. Yes, Israel has some puny, insignificant enemies, so do we. Just like us, Israel has nukes. No Arab nation is crazy enough to actually invade them again. No one needs to fear for Israel's continued existence.

Iran you say? No, the Iranian leadership isn't insane. Even if they had nukes they wouldn't nuke Israel. They're typical, pragmatic dictators who've wrapped themselves in whatever shroud was most convenient. In this case, the shroud is fundamentalist Islam. Hitler wasn't really about fascism, he was about power. Stalin wasn't really about communism, he was about power. Iran's mullahs aren't really about Islam, they're about Power. Even the craziest dictators fully realize the ramifications of mutually assured destruction. For proof of that, we need only look to best Korea.

Israel is not a good ally for the United States. Israel does almost nothing to benefit the United States, quite the opposite in fact. Much of the hatred of the US is based on Israeli apartheid of the Palestinians
.
You've provided some good examples of fine US allies. Canada, France and Turkey pull their weight. They're good, solid allies to the US. Israel is not, Israel is a drag on the US. I'm not saying they need to be dumped as an ally, but we do need to cut them loose financially. Israel hasn't needed our financial help in decades, but they continue to receive BILLIONS in US tax payers money each and every year. Fark independents looking for a some budget items to start cutting - how about the 3 to 6 billion dollars (depending on if you count loan guarantees) we give to Israel each and every farking year.
 
2013-01-10 11:50:24 AM  

Dr Dreidel: It's so nice to see that "Jews are rich bankers who control the world's economy" is still a thing people believe.

// not all of you
// but enough that I occasionally want to move back to Israel
// paranoia strikes deep...


It's not that (well, I don't doubt that some people hold this view); here are the more rational concerns:

-Israel holds disproportional lobbying influence for a foreign nation, even as an ally
-Israel is a "problem ally" in that US support for Israel is a diplomatic thorn for many other nations in the region, and (unfairly or not) there is a perception that the US gives tacit approval for controversial Israeli actions (like aggressive expansion)
 
2013-01-10 11:50:51 AM  

imontheinternet: qualtrough: Are there any historical precedents for a tiny nation exerting so much influence over both the internal and external policies of an almost infinitely larger and more powerful nation?

The Vatican and Dark Ages European kingdoms.


geographically speaking, england was pretty small, yet it famously ruled much of the globe for most of the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries.
 
2013-01-10 11:51:22 AM  

Vectron: Young Jewish liberals don't believe AIPAC really exists (its a fictional conspiracy cabal dreamed up by deluded anti-semites). Congress votes the way it does because of all those knuckle dragging End of Times Christians.

No, really, this is what they believe!

[westernrifleshooters.files.wordpress.com image 331x270]


Nice of you to let people know what they believe.
 
2013-01-10 11:51:43 AM  

Somacandra: give me doughnuts: If they could finally push all the Egyptian and Jordanian squatters

[i.imgur.com image 400x251]
I doubt it. The vast majority of people there, generations after generation are descended from the people that lived there under Ottoman regional rule--known as Palestinians.Deporting the few with Jordanian or Egyptian citizenship wouldn't help.



Until 1988, the non-Israeli residents of the West Bank were Jordanian citizens, but instead of letting them into the rest of country when Jordan relenquished its claim, the government instead stripped those people of their citizenship.
 
2013-01-10 11:54:12 AM  

Fissile: Israel will be toast soon......in a few decades there will be more Israeli citizens of Arab descent than Jews. A recent poll of young Israelis(under 35) shows that most would like to leave, and most of the majority would like to go to Europe.


Yea. In a few decades all that will remain will be Arabs and the Ultraorthodox Jews.
 
2013-01-10 11:55:01 AM  

Crewmannumber6: Correct me if I'm wrong, but when Israel was established after WWII, The USA was against it and was outvoted. How did we end up holding that bag of shiat.


Marshall, Forrestal and other military men in Trumans cainet were thoroughly disgusted with Trumans decision.
 
2013-01-10 11:56:19 AM  
a.abcnews.com

www.thetimes.co.uk

i.dailymail.co.uk

To be fair, Palin's support for turkey was pretty thin.
 
2013-01-10 11:56:34 AM  

Dr Dreidel: It's so nice to see that "Jews are rich bankers who control the world's economy" is still a thing people believe.

// not all of you
// but enough that I occasionally want to move back to Israel
// paranoia strikes deep...


Let's see, Jacob Lew is an Orthodox Jew. Then there's Ben Bernanke..... Krugman ....oh and Blankenfien. Basically, people from an ethnic group comprising 2% of the population set monetary policy for the rest of us. You don't think that's a bit .....odd?  Would it be hateful to comment on this if they were ethnic Koreans instead?
 
2013-01-10 11:57:02 AM  

Epoch_Zero: Your Silence is Killing Kurds: Israel is a US ally. Israel is opposed by the same people who oppose America. Israel is under ongoing threat. That is why the questions are germane

I don't see how germanium hydrate fits into this


images.gizmag.com
 
2013-01-10 11:57:53 AM  

Amos Quito: The goal of the (largely secular) Zionists in creating the "Jewish State" was not to protect Jews from "anti-Semitism", but to prevent Jews from assimilation.


Also from world leaders up and deciding that Jews (in general, or perhaps one group or person in particular) were a nuisance and were no longer required. Over the last 1,000 years, Jews were expelled from pretty much every country in Europe - twice. In the last 50 years, half - HALF! - of Jews in Europe were killed by the state, 2/3 of Polish Jews (where the bulk of the European community was) gone. Untold thousands of relics from pretty much every part of Jewish history over the last 2,000 years were destroyed, burned, looted or otherwise made unavailable.

But no. Jews don't need anything like a homeland - we have the US, for god's sake! A nation whose leaders have believed that Jews killed Jesus, engaged in blood libels (not to mention the virulent anti-Semitism displayed both by officials in government and slack-jawed yokels alike against Werner Brandeis, Caspar Weinberger, and pretty much any Jew in government until at least 1980 - hell, Dick Nixon was a RAGING anti-Semite, slagging his enemies as "damn Jews" on tape), support Israel so Jews can DIAF pre-Jesus and pay lip-service to the "Judeo"-Christian founding of the country by ignoring our religious heritage (California's proposed circumcision ban, for example).

I'd prefer it if it wasn't needed (the same way I'd prefer it if no country had an official religion), and I'm presenting worst-case scenarios (so no, I don't expect Holocaust 2 to hit the US' shores anytime soon), but you'd have to be some kind of idiot to not recognize why an ethnic group with a history described by scholars as "the shiat end of the stick" (apologies to Jon Stewart) should have a place to call home, even if it's on the other side of the world.
 
2013-01-10 11:57:59 AM  

Diogenes: Gulper Eel: Altair: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

and here we go...

Well, okay, I forgot that a few years back the Danes were ready to start some shiat with Canada over that rock up near Greenland. Thankfully, diplomacy prevailed and we were spared the horrors of the Poutine/Lego War of 2005.

Cute.

But I love how for all the hewing and crying over our sovereignty with regard to the UN, we seem to be ready to sacrifice it for Israel without question or hesitation.


So much THIS. If we are a soveriegn nation, then we owe nothing to the UN or to Israel, and that's exactly how it should be. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to work with them, but we don't owe them anything.
 
2013-01-10 11:58:06 AM  

T-Servo: [a.abcnews.com image 640x360]

[www.thetimes.co.uk image 780x520]

[i.dailymail.co.uk image 468x334]

To be fair, Palin's support for turkey was pretty thin.


HEE HEE!
 
2013-01-10 11:58:20 AM  

vernonFL: I am a Zionist, I believe the Jewish people should have their own country.


And I am the 21st century, and I have made the decision to leave all the countries based on religious national identities back in the 19th century where they belong.

White people shouldn't get a special country limited only to white people. Christians shouldn't get a special country limited only to Christians. And Jews shouldn't get a special country limited only to Jews. Religious nationalism is a 19th century concept that has been rejected by the world. We want the Muslims to stop doing it. We want the Christians to stop doing it. And we want the Jews to stop doing it, too.

I believe that all countries should allow all residents to fully participate in the society of that country. Everyone votes, everyone has an equal right to travel, everyone has an equal right to commerce, etc. Israel has reached a tipping point. Either they can make the residents of the West Bank and Gaza into full and free Israeli citizens, with all the rights given to every Israeli citizen, or they can give the residents of West Bank and Gaza full and complete autonomy to form their own country.
 
2013-01-10 11:58:54 AM  

Your Silence is Killing Kurds: Israel is a US ally. Israel is opposed by the same people who oppose America. Israel is under ongoing threat. That is why the questions are germane


The people who oppose Israel oppose the USA because we bankroll and run interference for Israel. Israel is under threat because it dispossessed people of their land, and continues to do so on a daily basis, based on a claim that god gave them the land. You think that would win them popularity contests anywhere in the world??
 
2013-01-10 11:59:14 AM  

FlashHarry: imontheinternet: qualtrough: Are there any historical precedents for a tiny nation exerting so much influence over both the internal and external policies of an almost infinitely larger and more powerful nation?

The Vatican and Dark Ages European kingdoms.

geographically speaking, england was pretty small, yet it famously ruled much of the globe for most of the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries.


Japan also has a tremendous amount of wealth and influence for such a small land with so few resources, relatively speaking.
 
2013-01-10 11:59:25 AM  

qualtrough: Serious question for the historians and political scientists here (if any):

Are there any historical precedents for a tiny nation exerting so much influence over both the internal and external policies of an almost infinitely larger and more powerful nation?



Possibly the Dutch Republics during the reign of Phillip II of the Holy Roman Empire, though the relationship was very different.
 
2013-01-10 11:59:47 AM  

T-Servo: To be fair, Palin's support for turkey was pretty thin.


Your newsletter, I'd like to subscribe to it.
 
2013-01-10 12:00:16 PM  
Perhaps it's time to admit that Israel was a mistake.

We've got lots of land in Wyoming and Alaska, either relocate for free, or handle your problems on your own.
 
2013-01-10 12:00:42 PM  

Because People in power are Stupid: Vectron: Young Jewish liberals don't believe AIPAC really exists (its a fictional conspiracy cabal dreamed up by deluded anti-semites). Congress votes the way it does because of all those knuckle dragging End of Times Christians.

No, really, this is what they believe!

[westernrifleshooters.files.wordpress.com image 331x270]

Nice of you to let people know what they believe.



Hey lookee!


Snort: This has nothing to do with Israel and everything to do with setting up the conditions for the Second Coming.

Support for Israel only goes as far as seeing them burn in the Apocalypse.

 
2013-01-10 12:00:45 PM  

Epoch_Zero: Your Silence is Killing Kurds: Israel is a US ally. Israel is opposed by the same people who oppose America. Israel is under ongoing threat. That is why the questions are germane

[upload.wikimedia.org image 200x162]

I don't see how germanium hydrate fits into this



A pic of Buford T. Justice would go well about now.


/you sounded taller on the radio
 
2013-01-10 12:01:53 PM  
Funny, no response. I'll ask again--how many of you "pro-Israel" Farkers here would fully support an Israeli government that demolished settlements and even partitioned Jerusalem?
 
2013-01-10 12:03:00 PM  

give me doughnuts: Resupply port for the 6th Fleet. Logistical and maintenance support for other U.S. forces in the Middle East. Joint training exercises. Technical collaberation on weapons systems.


I thought we were talking about Israel and not Saudi Arabia.
 
2013-01-10 12:04:16 PM  
The worst part of this absolutist Pro-Israel position that most of the establishment and politicians take is that it makes Israel less secure, because it allows it to pursue idiotic policies that undermine their own security. Israel's refusal to negotiate in good faith with the Palestinians to settle the issues of demarcating borders and and establishing an agreement they can all live with, means that Israel continues to face an uncertain insecure future. This, even as the whole region is going through tumultuous that in the long run can benefit Israel. For decades, many strong men, despite helping the US in keeping the peace with Israel, encouraged a "blame Israel" attitude to give their people an outlet for their frustrations. Yet now, as countries turn more democratic, Israel through its actions, is helping to promote the firebrands by instigating these newly democratizing populations against it.

Take Syria and Egypt for example. Israel was one of the main forces pushing the Obama administration to not recognize the uprisings as they liked having Mubarak and Assad in power, because they were known quantities. You can't win a people over, if you are pushing for them to remain under the thumb of their oppressive regimes. To boot, Israel and Saudi Arabia were on the same side on keeping Mubarak in Egypt, even as they have differed on Assad. Many in Israel's own security services see the dangers of the policies being pursued by Likud and how Israel faces further isolation thanks to their actions, and many, including the former head of the security services have come out against Netanyahu for this very reason, yet here in the US, we continue to equate support for Israel with support for Likud's political policies, hurting Israel's chances for peace and security in the long run.
 
2013-01-10 12:04:17 PM  

ITGreen: Gulper Eel: God Is My Co-Pirate: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

Well, France.

They have enough hot women that they can stay. Besides, nobody wants a giant Luxembourg.

Canada's got some damn fine women too.   Ahh, Montreal...


Canada gets the nod for hot Francophone women.
It's a personal hygiene thing.

/I've been in France.
 
2013-01-10 12:04:23 PM  

Vectron: Let's see, Jacob Lew is an Orthodox Jew. Then there's Ben Bernanke..... Krugman ....oh and Blankenfien. Basically, people from an ethnic group comprising 2% of the population set monetary policy for the rest of us. You don't think that's a bit .....odd? Would it be hateful to comment on this if they were ethnic Koreans instead?


If you're seriously telling me that the same group that counts Eric Cantor and George Soros, Noam Chomsky and Henry Kissinger, Jon Stewart and Jonah Goldberg as members can do ANYTHING without collapsing into a pile of dysfunction, I suspect you may not have thought things through. Even if we limited it only to those Jews sitting on boards, you'd have as hard a time convincing them to do anything as a group that you'd have with convincing the rest of them.

And no, it's not odd. Jews have a looooooooooooooooooong history of prizing education, family/community cohesion (sometimes forced), and social justice. That combines to form a group that holds too many degrees (HS, college and post-grad) and positions of power for its size. So the rest of you step up your games, rather than believe Jews are just better than you.

// we're not
// and we're not any more or less cohesive, as an international group, than Muslims or white people
 
2013-01-10 12:04:41 PM  

Vectron: Dr Dreidel: It's so nice to see that "Jews are rich bankers who control the world's economy" is still a thing people believe.

// not all of you
// but enough that I occasionally want to move back to Israel
// paranoia strikes deep...

Let's see, Jacob Lew is an Orthodox Jew. Then there's Ben Bernanke..... Krugman ....oh and Blankenfien. Basically, people from an ethnic group comprising 2% of the population set monetary policy for the rest of us. You don't think that's a bit .....odd?  Would it be hateful to comment on this if they were ethnic Koreans instead?


forums.digitalpoint.com
 
2013-01-10 12:05:17 PM  

people: Crewmannumber6: Correct me if I'm wrong, but when Israel was established after WWII, The USA was against it and was outvoted. How did we end up holding that bag of shiat.

Marshall, Forrestal and other military men in Trumans cainet were thoroughly disgusted with Trumans decision.



I read that a man named Abe Feinberg gave Truman two-million dollar cash bribe ($100 bills) for his campaign to recognize Israel.

Apparently the FBI knew about this.
 
2013-01-10 12:05:47 PM  

The Larch: Either they can make the residents of the West Bank and Gaza into full and free Israeli citizens, with all the rights given to every Israeli citizen, or they can give the residents of West Bank and Gaza full and complete autonomy to form their own country.


Thank you for summing up the last 2 intifadas and the entire Israel/Palestine debate. If only leadership knew that these were options!
 
2013-01-10 12:06:08 PM  
When 81 congressmen visit Canada, Turkey, or France during a three-week period, I'll get exercised.
Meanwhile, call corruption where you see it.

/Jewish money owns your government like a boss.
 
2013-01-10 12:07:35 PM  
fark Israel. And fark the Palestinians too. Let the desert savages slaughter each other, they don't need one farking dime from us.
 
2013-01-10 12:07:36 PM  

vernonFL: I am a Zionist, I believe the Jewish people should have their own country.

That being said, Israel today is a shameful apartheid state and I don't want my money supporting the current Israeli regime.


Agreed on the apartheid part for sure, and kudos to you: admitting that about the Israeli regime as a Zionist takes a certain level of integrity that is sorely lacking in the larger discussion of the issue...Especially in the US.

The question I would ask is how an explicitly Jewish state (or a state that officially seeks to engineer ANY ethno-religious majority within its bailiwick) won't inevitably turn apartheid in the long run? Once the demographic reality on the ground turns against the policy, apartheid returns--otherwise the policy is meaningless, no?
 
2013-01-10 12:08:02 PM  

Dr Dreidel: In the last 50 years, half - HALF! - of Jews in Europe were killed by the state


Ummm, wheat was this?
 
2013-01-10 12:08:42 PM  

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


Clever place to let the British put your country, innit it?
 
2013-01-10 12:08:55 PM  

qualtrough: Your Silence is Killing Kurds: Israel is a US ally. Israel is opposed by the same people who oppose America. Israel is under ongoing threat. That is why the questions are germane

The people who oppose Israel oppose the USA because we bankroll and run interference for Israel. Israel is under threat because it dispossessed people of their land, and continues to do so on a daily basis, based on a claim that god gave them the land. You think that would win them popularity contests anywhere in the world??


At some level yes, but at some level no. The first rule of politics is to create some 'other.' To much of the world America is that other, with or without Israel
 
2013-01-10 12:09:27 PM  

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


Done in 1.
 
2013-01-10 12:12:05 PM  
At what point did "supporting an ally" involve pissing contests over who would go the *furthest* in their unquestioning support of said ally?

I mean, there's a real difference between telling some goons that you'll kick their ass if they pick on your little brother, and sitting there silently while he then goes about *picking* fights and generally acting like a raging asshole, just to see how far he can push people with his big brother backing him up.

Let's remember that neither Hagel, nor Obama before him, dared say *anything* remotely un-supportive of Israel. They probably should have, but never did, so much as say "if you *pick the fight* yourself, you can fight it yourself." They never even suggested that maybe we should tell our little brother to dial it down. To stop screwing with people we both promised to not provoke.

No, they are being politically attacked for so much as suggesting that it is *possible* for our little brother to use our support incorrectly. That it's *possible* for him to be in the wrong. That it's *possible* for him to get us into fights that no-one wants or needs and that will just ensure more trouble down the line. Not that they're on that path. Not that we're at that point. Just that it's *possible*.

And they're being shouted down and bullied away from raising the possibility, for suggesting that we need to consider our support and interactions in the context of that possibility, with an argument tantamount to "why do you *hate* your little brother?"
 
2013-01-10 12:12:38 PM  

Vectron: people: Crewmannumber6: Correct me if I'm wrong, but when Israel was established after WWII, The USA was against it and was outvoted. How did we end up holding that bag of shiat.

Marshall, Forrestal and other military men in Trumans cainet were thoroughly disgusted with Trumans decision.


I read that a man named Abe Feinberg gave Truman two-million dollar cash bribe ($100 bills) for his campaign to recognize Israel.

Apparently the FBI knew about this.


t3.gstatic.com
 
2013-01-10 12:12:55 PM  

ThatGuyFromTheInternet: Dr Dreidel: In the last 50 years, half - HALF! - of Jews in Europe were killed by the state

Ummm, wheat was this?


Maybe he copypasta'd from a 1995 webpage?
 
2013-01-10 12:13:22 PM  

HAMMERTOE: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

Done in 1.


Done what, derping?
 
2013-01-10 12:13:44 PM  

zarberg: T-Servo: To be fair, Palin's support for turkey was pretty thin.

Your newsletter, I'd like to subscribe to it.


Turkey should feel lucky Palin didn't try to shoot them, having heard they taste good.
 
2013-01-10 12:13:45 PM  

Vectron: I read that a man named Abe Feinberg gave Truman two-million dollar cash bribe ($100 bills) for his campaign to recognize Israel.

Apparently the FBI knew about this.


My mind is rusty. Who wrote about this? Edwin Black or Israel Shahak?
 
2013-01-10 12:13:45 PM  

BravadoGT: America led the UN in establishing Israel.  They are family.


We are family
I got all my shiksas with me
We are family
Get up all you goyim and sing


/sorry
 
2013-01-10 12:14:18 PM  

Diogenes: But I love how for all the hewing and crying over our sovereignty with regard to the UN, we seem to be ready to sacrifice it for Israel without question or hesitation


How are we ready to sacrifice sovereignty for Israel?

Amos Quito: The goal of the (largely secular) Zionists in creating the "Jewish State" was not to protect Jews from "anti-Semitism", but to prevent Jews from assimilation.


Yeah what happened in WWII wasn't assimilation, but thanks for playing.

/looking forward to your derp about it being their fault.
 
2013-01-10 12:14:37 PM  

Dr Dreidel: no, it's not odd. Jews have a looooooooooooooooooong history of prizing education, family/community cohesion (sometimes forced), and social justice. That combines to form a group that holds too many degrees (HS, college and post-grad) and positions of power for its size. So the rest of you step up your games, rather than believe Jews are just better than you.


just sayin': Ethnic minorities shouldn't challenge the majorities. It hasn't worked too well for you.
 
2013-01-10 12:14:50 PM  
A quote by a racist who agrees with wiping israel off the face of the earth... and people wonder why 8 million people need our support? Subby is a good dhimmi
 
2013-01-10 12:16:41 PM  
Incog_Neeto: They help us by attempting to meddle in our elections while at the same time making any diplomacy in the middle east about a million times more difficult. We are the battered wife in a dysfunctional relationship with an unemployed plumber who is a giant douchbag to everyone on the block.

If you can't find this later, it's because I stole it.
 
2013-01-10 12:16:58 PM  

Diogenes: Gulper Eel: Altair: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

and here we go...

Well, okay, I forgot that a few years back the Danes were ready to start some shiat with Canada over that rock up near Greenland. Thankfully, diplomacy prevailed and we were spared the horrors of the Poutine/Lego War of 2005.

Cute.

But I love how for all the hewing and crying over our sovereignty with regard to the UN, we seem to be ready to sacrifice it for Israel without question or hesitation.


There ought to be some level of concern over Israel from the US - there would be no Israel without the US/UK/other WWII Allies, so there is an implied responsibility there - just not the level of concern currently present.
 
2013-01-10 12:17:32 PM  
Both should be required reading for all Israel threads:

1 ) "How To Support Israel Without Being Racist"

2) "How To Criticize Israel Without Being Anti-Semitic"
 
2013-01-10 12:17:48 PM  

RandomRandom: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

So Farking What. Yes, Israel has some puny, insignificant enemies, so do we. Just like us, Israel has nukes. No Arab nation is crazy enough to actually invade them again. No one needs to fear for Israel's continued existence.

Iran you say? No, the Iranian leadership isn't insane. Even if they had nukes they wouldn't nuke Israel. They're typical, pragmatic dictators who've wrapped themselves in whatever shroud was most convenient. In this case, the shroud is fundamentalist Islam. Hitler wasn't really about fascism, he was about power. Stalin wasn't really about communism, he was about power. Iran's mullahs aren't really about Islam, they're about Power. Even the craziest dictators fully realize the ramifications of mutually assured destruction. For proof of that, we need only look to best Korea.

Israel is not a good ally for the United States. Israel does almost nothing to benefit the United States, quite the opposite in fact. Much of the hatred of the US is based on Israeli apartheid of the Palestinians
.
You've provided some good examples of fine US allies. Canada, France and Turkey pull their weight. They're good, solid allies to the US. Israel is not, Israel is a drag on the US. I'm not saying they need to be dumped as an ally, but we do need to cut them loose financially. Israel hasn't needed our financial help in decades, but they continue to receive BILLIONS in US tax payers money each and every year. Fark independents looking for a some budget items to start cutting - how about the 3 to 6 billion dollars (depending on if you count loan guarantees) we give to Israel each and every farking year.


Maybe take a look at Pakistan. A country which is only an ally by a big stretch, which if not actively supporting terrorism, certainly seems to approve of it, and receives significantly more aid.
 
2013-01-10 12:18:18 PM  

tallguywithglasseson: Interesting tidbit, from link in TFA, Elliott Abrams from the Council on Foreign Relations went all in on NPR and said Hagel is an anti-Semite. That's what you get for not supporting "our" family.

http://mondoweiss.net/2013/01/elliott-abrams-semite.html


" I listened to the comments from Mr. Abrams with an increasing sense of incredulity. As he attacked Mr. Hagel for being soft on Iran, I could not help but remember that Mr. Abrams himself conspired with others in the Reagan administration to sell US missiles secretly to Iran, in violation of US law."
 
2013-01-10 12:18:56 PM  

Vectron: Hey lookee!


Snort: This has nothing to do with Israel and everything to do with setting up the conditions for the Second Coming.

Support for Israel only goes as far as seeing them burn in the Apocalypse.


#1 That statement is not mutually exclusive with what you said that Jewish Liberals believe
#2 You don't know that anyone here is a "Jewish Liberal" from anything they say even on their account profile


#3 The Elders of Zion are putting you on a list somewhere.
 
2013-01-10 12:19:19 PM  
The current clowns running the show in Israel certainly make it difficult to support them. It's like the 5 year old who goes around picking fights because he knows his big brother will step in and back him up.
 
2013-01-10 12:19:33 PM  

SixPaperJoint: I got all my shiksas with me


upload.wikimedia.org

Approves.
 
2013-01-10 12:20:16 PM  

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


Tell that to the people of Turkey who were attacked by Iraqi Kurds, the Syrian military, and Iran trying to overthrow them on their Eastern border. I would say Turkey go through as much junk as Israel does, and what more they are an actual NATO member, but we still don't go on about the need to save Turkey everyday.
 
2013-01-10 12:20:16 PM  

The Larch: pag1107: You guys are all way off base, it has way more to do with pandering to a religious group for votes than actually protecting any other nations.

Exactly. Evangelical Christians are a paranoid death cult that are praying for the day that their messiah to comes back and destroys the world. And somehow, they're convinced that by supporting Israel, they will convince their crazy and capricious god to being the complete and total annihilation of the world a little earlier.

It is sad that American politics are so heavily influenced by a delusional warlike death cult, but there you go. You have to live with reality.


This is very true. I know some of these people.

Now I'm on my phone trying to avoid the

Broken glass, broken glass, broken glass, broken glass..

/still the best birthday I ever had
 
2013-01-10 12:20:38 PM  
It's a state based on religion, so how about Vatican City?

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


So Israel is like South Vietnam?
 
2013-01-10 12:20:39 PM  
Thanks for the Iraq war, AIPAC!!!

BTW: we didn't find any WMDs, but at least you got what you wanted like a good JAP.
 
2013-01-10 12:20:58 PM  

ringersol: At what point did "supporting an ally" involve pissing contests over who would go the *furthest* in their unquestioning support of said ally?


Exactly.  Discussions about Israel in the US tend to devolve into rational  "Israel has a right to exist" arguments versus "Jews control the world" derp, but that's missing the issue entirely.  The issue is not the fact that the US and Israel are allies; it's the unprecedented level of deference to Israel on matters of policy.  Friends don't always have to be on the same page on every issue, and all Americans, including elected leaders, should be as free to criticize Israel as Israeli leaders are free to criticize the US.
 
2013-01-10 12:21:34 PM  

Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: The current clowns running the show in Israel certainly make it difficult to support them. It's like the 5 year old who goes around picking fights because he knows his big brother will step in and back him up.


So self defense is now picking fights? You are either retarded, dhimmi, or both.
 
2013-01-10 12:21:38 PM  
We should have given them Winnipeg instead of Palestine. Seriously, no one in Canada or anywhere else would miss Winnipeg, much less fight over it.
 
2013-01-10 12:21:48 PM  

Joe Blowme: Subby is a good dhimmi


DRINK!
 
2013-01-10 12:23:26 PM  

give me doughnuts: Somacandra: give me doughnuts: If they could finally push all the Egyptian and Jordanian squatters

[i.imgur.com image 400x251]
I doubt it. The vast majority of people there, generations after generation are descended from the people that lived there under Ottoman regional rule--known as Palestinians.Deporting the few with Jordanian or Egyptian citizenship wouldn't help.


Until 1988, the non-Israeli residents of the West Bank were Jordanian citizens, but instead of letting them into the rest of country when Jordan relenquished its claim, the government instead stripped those people of their citizenship.


The other arab nations have behaved in similiar fashion over the years. While Israel's treatment of the Palestinians leaves a lot to be desrelyingired (to say the least), the various arab states in the area have continually exacerbated the problem while using the palestinian population to be a constant potential causus belli.
 
2013-01-10 12:24:19 PM  

Banned on the Run: pag1107: You guys are all way off base, it has way more to do with pandering to a religious group for votes than actually protecting any other nations.

[i216.photobucket.com image 450x600]

Obama got 69% of the Jewish vote.
It must not be working.


That's because the tea party didn't have enough signs showing Obama with a Hitler mustache, well that or those wiley jews were smarter than the tea party thought.
 
2013-01-10 12:24:29 PM  
OK, bottom-line it for me, folks.

How do we get to the point where all of us can just stop hearing about and giving a rat's ass about this tiny, obnoxious nation half a world away? Just tell me what it takes, because I've had enough of this shiat.

Spell it out for me. Because I am being asked to care about this shiat waaaaaaaaayy too often now. And I need it to stop.
 
2013-01-10 12:24:51 PM  
Never seen a thread like this one before. I wonder where it will go...
1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-01-10 12:25:13 PM  
C'mon, people. Humor me. Are you supporting Israel or supporting Bibi? If the government of Israel did an about-face on its policies towards the Palestinians and the two-state solution, would you be happy about that? Why or why not?
 
2013-01-10 12:26:14 PM  

Somacandra: Both should be required reading for all Israel threads:

1 ) "How To Support Israel Without Being Racist"

2) "How To Criticize Israel Without Being Anti-Semitic"


Blocked at work. hmmm, I wonder why.
 
2013-01-10 12:26:30 PM  

limeyfellow: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

Tell that to the people of Turkey who were attacked by Iraqi Kurds, the Syrian military, and Iran trying to overthrow them on their Eastern border. I would say Turkey go through as much junk as Israel does, and what more they are an actual NATO member, but we still don't go on about the need to save Turkey everyday.


They were attacked mostly buy their own Kurds, and the Iraqi Kurds didn;t have backing of their country during those attacks.

Syria lobbed, what 5 mortars in this conflict (if you are talking about something earlier, please correct me).

Not really familiar with Iran "trying to overthrow" them, but I am pretty sure whatever you are alluding to sin't a threat to "wipe them out".
 
2013-01-10 12:26:58 PM  
You know the best part about Israel thread?

Getting to watch the anti-Muslim neocon wingnuts and the anti-Semitic paleocon wingnuts argue and eat each other.

3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-01-10 12:27:12 PM  

Banned on the Run: pag1107: You guys are all way off base, it has way more to do with pandering to a religious group for votes than actually protecting any other nations.

[i216.photobucket.com image 450x600]

Obama got 69% of the Jewish vote.
It must not be working.


Christian Voters, not Jewish ones.
 
2013-01-10 12:27:55 PM  

factoryconnection: Okay, since I'm too lazy to dig but still care to know, is Hagel's Jewish position:

A. He supports giving them money and materiel consistently, but is offended that such a tiny minority holds so much sway that any criticism of any action of Israel (settlement building, slum bombardment, etc...) is off limits

OR

B. He supports giving them money and materiel consistently, but they're still damn, dirty Jews that run Hollywood and have ruined everything.

I know he's supported them with legislation, it is the "Israel critic" versus "I hate Jews" position that needs clarification for me.


I figure that now, with some chatty Jewish folks onboard I might get an intelligent answer to this question.
 
2013-01-10 12:28:02 PM  
Can't we just give the jews some casinos or something...
 
2013-01-10 12:28:36 PM  

Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: The current clowns running the show in Israel certainly make it difficult to support them.

i.imgur.com


Especially when Bibi appears in an American election campaign ad. The current administration there enjoys being dickish for its own sake, as commenters in Israeli media have pointed out. Nobody likes Bibi but they all hate his rivals even more.

 
2013-01-10 12:29:14 PM  

ThatGuyFromTheInternet: Dr Dreidel: In the last 50 years, half - HALF! - of Jews in Europe were killed by the state

Ummm, wheat was this?


Heh. 60. My math needs updating (in HS, I got used to the "50 years" formulation). Sue me.

// I'm a Jew, you'll never win
 
2013-01-10 12:29:42 PM  

theorellior: C'mon, people. Humor me. Are you supporting Israel or supporting Bibi? If the government of Israel did an about-face on its policies towards the Palestinians and the two-state solution, would you be happy about that? Why or why not?


What would an "about face" entail if they aren't doing much towards/against that goal?

/not a fan of Bibi
 
2013-01-10 12:29:53 PM  

Epoch_Zero: Your Silence is Killing Kurds: Israel is a US ally. Israel is opposed by the same people who oppose America. Israel is under ongoing threat. That is why the questions are germane

I don't see how germanium hydrate fits into this


That's germanium hydride. Hydrates imply water.
 
2013-01-10 12:30:24 PM  

JusticeandIndependence: Blocked at work. hmmm, I wonder why.


It happens to be on Tumblr. Commonly blocked at a lot of workplaces due to excessive lolcats
 
2013-01-10 12:30:48 PM  

qualtrough: Your Silence is Killing Kurds: Israel is a US ally. Israel is opposed by the same people who oppose America. Israel is under ongoing threat. That is why the questions are germane

The people who oppose Israel oppose the USA because we bankroll and run interference for Israel. Israel is under threat because it dispossessed people of their land, and continues to do so on a daily basis, based on a claim that god gave them the land. You think that would win them popularity contests anywhere in the world??


Simple and to the point, I approve.

How many other allied nations have had spies in the US as well?  I mean, maybe Granholm was just a really good Canadian spy that we never caught, but someone feel free to tell me Canadian, French, Turkish recent history spies that have been caught in the US.

Israel is our ally, and someone who is against its continued existence probably wouldn't be a good choice diplomatically.  But a two state solution != Israel has no right to exist, and I am so goddamn sick of this.  It's almost as bad as the gun debate.  Try to actually have a discussion and instead everyone responds with hysteria.
 
2013-01-10 12:33:16 PM  

Shadow writer: The worst part of this absolutist Pro-Israel position that most of the establishment and politicians take is that it makes Israel less secure, because it allows it to pursue idiotic policies that undermine their own security. Israel's refusal to negotiate in good faith with the Palestinians to settle the issues of demarcating borders and and establishing an agreement they can all live with, means that Israel continues to face an uncertain insecure future. This, even as the whole region is going through tumultuous that in the long run can benefit Israel. For decades, many strong men, despite helping the US in keeping the peace with Israel, encouraged a "blame Israel" attitude to give their people an outlet for their frustrations. Yet now, as countries turn more democratic, Israel through its actions, is helping to promote the firebrands by instigating these newly democratizing populations against it.

Take Syria and Egypt for example. Israel was one of the main forces pushing the Obama administration to not recognize the uprisings as they liked having Mubarak and Assad in power, because they were known quantities. You can't win a people over, if you are pushing for them to remain under the thumb of their oppressive regimes. To boot, Israel and Saudi Arabia were on the same side on keeping Mubarak in Egypt, even as they have differed on Assad. Many in Israel's own security services see the dangers of the policies being pursued by Likud and how Israel faces further isolation thanks to their actions, and many, including the former head of the security services have come out against Netanyahu for this very reason, yet here in the US, we continue to equate support for Israel with support for Likud's political policies, hurting Israel's chances for peace and security in the long run.


Good analysis. Currently Israel has a right wing hard core government, but that will change.
 
2013-01-10 12:33:37 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Amos Quito: The goal of the (largely secular) Zionists in creating the "Jewish State" was not to protect Jews from "anti-Semitism", but to prevent Jews from assimilation.

Also from world leaders up and deciding that Jews (in general, or perhaps one group or person in particular) were a nuisance and were no longer required. Over the last 1,000 years, Jews were expelled from pretty much every country in Europe - twice. In the last 50 years, half - HALF! - of Jews in Europe were killed by the state, 2/3 of Polish Jews (where the bulk of the European community was) gone. Untold thousands of relics from pretty much every part of Jewish history over the last 2,000 years were destroyed, burned, looted or otherwise made unavailable.

But no. Jews don't need anything like a homeland - we have the US, for god's sake! A nation whose leaders have believed that Jews killed Jesus, engaged in blood libels (not to mention the virulent anti-Semitism displayed both by officials in government and slack-jawed yokels alike against Werner Brandeis, Caspar Weinberger, and pretty much any Jew in government until at least 1980 - hell, Dick Nixon was a RAGING anti-Semite, slagging his enemies as "damn Jews" on tape), support Israel so Jews can DIAF pre-Jesus and pay lip-service to the "Judeo"-Christian founding of the country by ignoring our religious heritage (California's proposed circumcision ban, for example).

I'd prefer it if it wasn't needed (the same way I'd prefer it if no country had an official religion), and I'm presenting worst-case scenarios (so no, I don't expect Holocaust 2 to hit the US' shores anytime soon), but you'd have to be some kind of idiot to not recognize why an ethnic group with a history described by scholars as "the shiat end of the stick" (apologies to Jon Stewart) should have a place to call home, even if it's on the other side of the world.


It's a very understandable impulse, but when you look at the overall history of the world there are groups that have suffered similarly (the Hmong being a good example) you'll notice that this habit of cloistering ourselves off over our differences like ethnicity or religion is exactly the sort of thinking that lead to the Jews being expelled from various nations throughout history
 
2013-01-10 12:34:46 PM  

Somacandra: Both should be required reading for all Israel threads:

1 ) "How To Support Israel Without Being Racist"

2) "How To Criticize Israel Without Being Anti-Semitic"


1) Avoid making blanket statements about Palestinians.
2) Avoid making blanket statements about Jews.

// 3) avoid shiat-stirrers who muddy the debate by claiming (or referencing the claim) that support/criticism of Israel is racist/anti-Semitic. If you can point to specific policies or actions and outline your support/criticism independent of ethnic/racial suppositions, you're golden.
 
2013-01-10 12:35:19 PM  

imontheinternet: Friends don't always have to be on the same page on every issue, and all Americans, including elected leaders, should be as free to criticize Israel as Israeli leaders are free to criticize the US.


The level of criticism directed against Israeli policy in Israel's own mass media would never be tolerated in the USA. Seriously. People there are much freer to criticize policy without being labeled 'left fascist anti-semites' or whatever. Even fierce criticisms from Lebanese policy analysts get published in Yedioth Ahronoth.
 
2013-01-10 12:36:03 PM  

give me doughnuts: Zeno-25: [i.imgur.com image 720x540]

They're off by a factor of 10, and almost all of it is spent here, at defense contractors.


Moreover, the delicious irony is that sales of US armaments to Saudi Arabia pays for the whole Israeli-Egypt aid package.
 
2013-01-10 12:38:56 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Avoid making blanket statements about Palestinians...Avoid making blanket statements about Jews.


I think you're have to admit both of these are heavy tasks for a lot of Farkers. Especially because the relationship between philosemitism and antisemitism is historically less than clear.
 
2013-01-10 12:39:02 PM  

Banned on the Run: pag1107: You guys are all way off base, it has way more to do with pandering to a religious group for votes than actually protecting any other nations.

[i216.photobucket.com image 450x600]

Obama got 69% of the Jewish vote.
It must not be working.


I don't think Jewish people are the religious group that he meant. It's the evangelicals, especially the left behinder twerps.
 
2013-01-10 12:39:40 PM  

limeyfellow: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

Tell that to the people of Turkey who were attacked by Iraqi Kurds, the Syrian military, and Iran trying to overthrow them on their Eastern border. I would say Turkey go through as much junk as Israel does, and what more they are an actual NATO member, but we still don't go on about the need to save Turkey everyday.


??? The Kurds are one thing. Syria challenging Turkey? They, like the Iranians might meddle, but nobody's threatening to push them all into the sea.
 
2013-01-10 12:40:06 PM  

Crotchrocket Slim: you'll notice that this habit of cloistering ourselves off over our differences like ethnicity or religion is exactly the sort of thinking that lead to the Jews being expelled from various nations throughout history


And if only black people had moved to white communities and stopped all the jive talk?

Sorry, no. In modern times, self-segregation is not really a problem (KJ, communities in Israel notwithstanding). In the past, Jews were not so much self-segregated as ghettoized. The notion of "secular Jewry" - where you're not observant, but still in the community - was largely absent before the 1700s. You were either a member in good standing, or no longer part of the community.
 
2013-01-10 12:40:07 PM  

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


Israel is not entirely blameless in that. They might have started off as victims, but right now they're a mix of victim and perpetrator, and goddamn are they assholes about it.

/Just like everyone else in the region. They adapted so well.
 
2013-01-10 12:40:26 PM  

Albert911emt:

So much THIS. If we are a soveriegn nation, then we owe nothing to the UN or to Israel, and that's exactly how it should be. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to work with them, but we don't owe them anything.


What the hell does this mean? Sovereign nations are not obligated to honor the arrangements they freely entered into with other sovereign nations?
 
2013-01-10 12:41:19 PM  

Antimatter: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

Israel has nukes. No one is going to wipe them off the map anytime soon.

Furthermore, this isn't our problem. We only support Israel because bronze age death cultists think it's necessary in order to have the second coming and the end of days.


Oh, those Christian folks are hummin' Cuz they say their God is Comin'.
Well, our God's come two times tonight...And Our Goddess at least three.
 
2013-01-10 12:42:02 PM  

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


Perhaps you aren't familiar with Turkish history. Not so much at risk these days, but yea... everyone has attacked Turkey, even their allies. France is in this boat too.

Furthermore, commitment to France WAS an issue less than 100 years ago. However, in that case people were allowed to be on both sides, unlike now.
 
2013-01-10 12:43:36 PM  

Dr Dreidel: ThatGuyFromTheInternet: Dr Dreidel: In the last 50 years, half - HALF! - of Jews in Europe were killed by the state

Ummm, wheat was this?

Heh. 60. My math needs updating (in HS, I got used to the "50 years" formulation). Sue me.

// I'm a Jew, you'll never win


That doesn't justify Israel's land grab. Just saying, if you tried that defense in court you'd be laughed out in five minutes.
 
2013-01-10 12:45:04 PM  

Somacandra: imontheinternet: Friends don't always have to be on the same page on every issue, and all Americans, including elected leaders, should be as free to criticize Israel as Israeli leaders are free to criticize the US.

The level of criticism directed against Israeli policy in Israel's own mass media would never be tolerated in the USA. Seriously. People there are much freer to criticize policy without being labeled 'left fascist anti-semites' or whatever. Even fierce criticisms from Lebanese policy analysts get published in Yedioth Ahronoth.


I have been accused of being jewish, on Israeli payroll, etc and I think the fear of critisizing Israel in the US is silly.

I don't see it changing from a 3rd rail of politics anytime soon.
 
2013-01-10 12:45:17 PM  

Somacandra: Dr Dreidel: Avoid making blanket statements about Palestinians...Avoid making blanket statements about Jews.

I think you're have to admit both of these are heavy tasks for a lot of Farkers. Especially because the relationship between philosemitism and antisemitism is historically less than clear.


If those are heavy tasks, Doc, maybe stop posting for a while (not you, anyone for whom that would be a problem). I actually think it's #3 that trips most people up. You'll notice them in the threads as the people rhetorically throwing up their hands and saying "We can't criticize Israel or the Jews will hate us and make us feel bad for the Holocaust. AGAIN." or "Stupid Americans don't realize that EVIL MUSLIMS are the ones hurting our BFF Izzy for no reason 'tall."

Can we agree to leave those strawmen in the Boobieses and then never bring them up again in-thread?
 
2013-01-10 12:46:49 PM  

yeegrek: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

Funny, I've been told countless times by Americans that if not for them, Canada would have been conquered several times over now.


Obligatory

"Yeah, you won, I guess. I don't really care."

"I care SO MUCH."
 
2013-01-10 12:46:56 PM  

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


France?  Come on, Who doesn't want to wipe them off the face of the earth.
 
2013-01-10 12:48:33 PM  

theorellior: C'mon, people. Humor me. Are you supporting Israel or supporting Bibi? If the government of Israel did an about-face on its policies towards the Palestinians and the two-state solution, would you be happy about that? Why or why not?


I'm replying because it's in my genes to not be rude-
Ok, I'm rude sometimes.
But I felt bad for your lonely posts. Most of mine are lonely.

I'm not sure where I stand on Israel.
I think it wasn't their fault that they ended up being given the territory after WWII. Certainly seemed somewhat upstanding and fair, given the situation.

But what they have done since is theirs to own. And some of that stuff is not good. I would love to see a 2-state solution, because I like peace.

/i know my derpy answer wasn't what you were looking for, but there it is.
 
2013-01-10 12:48:45 PM  

Crotchrocket Slim: You're forgetting how useful the IDF is in field testing next generation military hardware etc. I'm sure that at first guilt over letting the Holocaust happen may have played a part in our early foreign policy with them but these days pragmatism (or at least what a lot of policymakers feel is the more pragmatic approach) rules our policy with Israel.


But, under that logic, isn't it *stupid* to develop tech with them given how they just turn around and sell it to the Chinese?
 
2013-01-10 12:48:58 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: That doesn't justify Israel's land grab. Just saying, if you tried that defense in court you'd be laughed out in five minutes.


OK. So? (and it was "The UN's land-grab", followed by "a 6-month war where indigenous people, rather than accept yet another government that wasn't made up of their own, attacked proto-Israel to prevent the UN's partition plan from being realized, then when they lost proceeded to whine about it rather than attempt to make peace.")

I'm not justifying it objectively, I'm explaining why a homeland (even one, as Herzl first wanted, in what is now Uganda) for ethnic minorities is a jury-rigged solution for a retarded human problem.
 
ows
2013-01-10 12:49:16 PM  

tricycleracer: tricycleracer: the

*they


this
 
2013-01-10 12:49:20 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Amos Quito: The goal of the (largely secular) Zionists in creating the "Jewish State" was not to protect Jews from "anti-Semitism", but to prevent Jews from assimilation.

Also from world leaders up and deciding that Jews (in general, or perhaps one group or person in particular) were a nuisance and were no longer required. Over the last 1,000 years, Jews were expelled from pretty much every country in Europe - twice.



Can you spot the common denominator?


Dr. Dreidel: In the last 50 years, half - HALF! - of Jews in Europe were killed by the state,


Since 1963? Did I miss something?


Dr. Dreidel: 2/3 of Polish Jews (where the bulk of the European community was) gone. Untold thousands of relics from pretty much every part of Jewish history over the last 2,000 years were destroyed, burned, looted or otherwise made unavailable.

But no. Jews don't need anything like a homeland - we have the US, for god's sake! A nation whose leaders have believed that Jews killed Jesus, engaged in blood libels (not to mention the virulent anti-Semitism displayed both by officials in government and slack-jawed yokels alike against Werner Brandeis, Caspar Weinberger, and pretty much any Jew in government until at least 1980 - hell, Dick Nixon was a RAGING anti-Semite, slagging his enemies as "damn Jews" on tape), support Israel so Jews can DIAF pre-Jesus and pay lip-service to the "Judeo"-Christian founding of the country by ignoring our religious heritage (California's proposed circumcision ban, for example).



So how do you feel about the idea of Jews fully assimilating? Hard to "persecute" a "group" that does not self-identify (and self-identification is largely the ONLY identifying characteristic of this particular group)


Dr. Dreidel:   I'd prefer it if it wasn't needed (the same way I'd prefer it if no country had an official religion), and I'm presenting worst-case scenarios (so no, I don't expect Holocaust 2 to hit the US' shores anytime soon), but you'd have to be some kind of idiot to not recognize why an ethnic group with a history described by scholars as "the shiat end of the stick" (apologies to Jon Stewart) should have a place to call home, even if it's on the other side of the world.


Again, find the common denominator.
 
2013-01-10 12:49:33 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Crotchrocket Slim: you'll notice that this habit of cloistering ourselves off over our differences like ethnicity or religion is exactly the sort of thinking that lead to the Jews being expelled from various nations throughout history

And if only black people had moved to white communities and stopped all the jive talk?

Sorry, no. In modern times, self-segregation is not really a problem (KJ, communities in Israel notwithstanding). In the past, Jews were not so much self-segregated as ghettoized. The notion of "secular Jewry" - where you're not observant, but still in the community - was largely absent before the 1700s. You were either a member in good standing, or no longer part of the community.


As a working class white person I wouldn't be welcome in a lot of neighborhoods blacks were "disallowed" from moving into, and as of right now I have a shiatload of African American, Asian, Middle Eastern, and probably a few Jewish neighbors. Economics has always added a further unnecessary stink to these situations; they are not driven entirely by ethnic etc. difference. Notice that the Nazi party only gained traction in Germany* while it was suffering terrible economic woes from WWI and a lot of people just were looking for scapegoats, and of course if you're already self-segregating it's only natural to continue to do so. This was prior to the Nuremberg Acts, Jews were NOT ghettocized in Germany at the time and indeed, you see a lot of writings from this period talking about being a German (citizen) first and being Jewish scond (which inspired a lot the "Eternal Jew" concept that the Third Reich used to justify ethnic cleansing).
 
2013-01-10 12:50:06 PM  

Dr Dreidel: The Larch: Either they can make the residents of the West Bank and Gaza into full and free Israeli citizens, with all the rights given to every Israeli citizen, or they can give the residents of West Bank and Gaza full and complete autonomy to form their own country.

Thank you for summing up the last 2 intifadas and the entire Israel/Palestine debate. If only leadership knew that these were options!


Dude, everybody is already fully and completely aware that those are two of the available options.

But there certainly are other options, of course. For example, one side or the other refuse to enter into any negotiation or discussions and continue living with the current situation forever. Or, one side or the other can commit genocide and systematically eliminate all of their opponents from the face of the earth. Or maybe some third party could come forcibly remove all of the people on one side of the fight, and relocate them all in a new host country.

What I should have said was that those are the only two options that the international community will actually accept as the eventual goal of negotiations, and every single person involved in the negotiations is fully and completely aware of that fact.
 
2013-01-10 12:51:55 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: Crotchrocket Slim: You're forgetting how useful the IDF is in field testing next generation military hardware etc. I'm sure that at first guilt over letting the Holocaust happen may have played a part in our early foreign policy with them but these days pragmatism (or at least what a lot of policymakers feel is the more pragmatic approach) rules our policy with Israel.

But, under that logic, isn't it *stupid* to develop tech with them given how they just turn around and sell it to the Chinese?


Maybe, but only because we could make more money selling our outdated stuff to the Chinese ourselves like we do with everyone else in Asia. I'm wondering if the US might secretly be getting some kind of kickback for that or if there were other arrangements made.
 
2013-01-10 12:52:39 PM  

Amos Quito: Dr Dreidel: Amos Quito: The goal of the (largely secular) Zionists in creating the "Jewish State" was not to protect Jews from "anti-Semitism", but to prevent Jews from assimilation.

Also from world leaders up and deciding that Jews (in general, or perhaps one group or person in particular) were a nuisance and were no longer required. Over the last 1,000 years, Jews were expelled from pretty much every country in Europe - twice.

Can you spot the common denominator?


Jews. It's Jews right? We did it to ourselves?

So how do you feel about the idea of Jews fully assimilating? Hard to "persecute" a "group" that does not self-identify (and self-identification is largely the ONLY identifying characteristic of this particular group)

So if only we lost our history and heritage, we could finally be accepted by the (presumably white American/European) majority? How about "go fark yourself with a side of rice"?

// why are Jews - forget about Israel - the only group not allowed to have its own identity?
// why am I arguing with an anti-Semite?
// why do I allow myself to be dragged into these threads time after time?
 
TWX
2013-01-10 12:52:53 PM  

Somacandra: give me doughnuts: If they could finally push all the Egyptian and Jordanian squatters

[i.imgur.com image 400x251]
I doubt it. The vast majority of people there, generations after generation are descended from the people that lived there under Ottoman regional rule--known as Palestinians.Deporting the few with Jordanian or Egyptian citizenship wouldn't help.


Sometimes I wonder what would happen if Egypt slowly assimilated Gaza and Jordan slowly assimilated the West Bank. Begin with economic investment made favorable by the lower wages for these areas, similar to how the US/Puerto Rico relationship is, and after some economic stability is gained in each respective territory, work toward full citizenship rights in parity with the respective nations, allowing wages to also come into parity with the respective nations, culminating with freedom of movement.

I've seen old maps showing Gaza as part of Egypt and W.B. as part of Transjordan, but those attempts appear to predate these nations' peace treaties with Israel, and it appears that no serious attempts to integrate like that have been tried since those treaties were enacted.
 
2013-01-10 12:53:10 PM  

PsiChick: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

Israel is not entirely blameless in that. They might have started off as victims, but right now they're a mix of victim and perpetrator, and goddamn are they assholes about it.

/Just like everyone else in the region. They adapted so well.


Syria: Hey, Arabs living in Israel, we're gonna go fark em up, wanna help?
Arabs in Israel: Uhhhh. Not really. We kind of like it here and the Jews who just moved in aren't so bad.
Syria: Well gtfo the way then, here we come.
Arabs in Israel: Shiat, I'm getting the fark out of Dodge.
2 months later:
Syria: Oh fark, that was a bad idea, give us our land back?
Israel: Go fark yourselves. No.
Arabs no longer in Israel: Hey, I just wanted you guys to know that we had nothing to do with that mess. Can we come back now?
Israel: You knew they were coming and you didn't warn us? You ALSO go fark yourselves. No.

Palestinians:
ksaz.images.worldnow.com
Fine. Hey, Syria can we han-

Syria: OH LOOK WHO IT IS! Thanks for the help, dickbags. And to answer your question: No.

Palestinians: FFFFFFUUUUUUUU-

I mean, it's really just a shiat sandwich for everyone.
 
2013-01-10 12:53:51 PM  

Gulper Eel: God Is My Co-Pirate: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

Well, France.

They have enough hot women that they can stay. Besides, nobody wants a giant Luxembourg.


Colonialism wasn't all bad, if it led to such examples of hybrid vigour as this:

cdn1.gossipcenter.com

She's in the new James Bond film, and is one of most beautiful women I've ever seen.
Beautiful enough for Israel? Hard to say.
 
2013-01-10 12:54:41 PM  

Crotchrocket Slim: This was prior to the Nuremberg Acts, Jews were NOT ghettocized in Germany at the time


Did I limit it to only Germany in the 20th Century?

// "ghetto" is an Italian word
// Nazis were pissed (or, gave these as reasons at various times) both at Jews' self-segregation and intermingling with Good Germans
 
2013-01-10 12:55:13 PM  

Dr Dreidel: cameroncrazy1984: That doesn't justify Israel's land grab. Just saying, if you tried that defense in court you'd be laughed out in five minutes.

OK. So? (and it was "The UN's land-grab", followed by "a 6-month war where indigenous people, rather than accept yet another government that wasn't made up of their own, attacked proto-Israel to prevent the UN's partition plan from being realized, then when they lost proceeded to whine about it rather than attempt to make peace.")

I'm not justifying it objectively, I'm explaining why a homeland (even one, as Herzl first wanted, in what is now Uganda) for ethnic minorities is a jury-rigged solution for a retarded human problem.


Solutions resolve problems, this doesn't really resolve anything. At best this is a temporary arrangement between either wars/genocides or people change what sort of entirely identity-based difference they are going to be obsessed about.
 
2013-01-10 12:57:10 PM  

give me doughnuts: Diogenes: Gulper Eel: Altair: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

and here we go...

Well, okay, I forgot that a few years back the Danes were ready to start some shiat with Canada over that rock up near Greenland. Thankfully, diplomacy prevailed and we were spared the horrors of the Poutine/Lego War of 2005.

Cute.

But I love how for all the hewing and crying over our sovereignty with regard to the UN, we seem to be ready to sacrifice it for Israel without question or hesitation.

Really? Supporting an ally is now "sacrificing our sovereignty"?

Damn those Japanese for making us give up our sovereignty! And likewise let us curse the Germans and those dastardly villains in the Netherlands!


Why is Israel an ally? What do they do for us besides makimg sure everyone in the ME hates us?
 
2013-01-10 12:57:57 PM  

Crotchrocket Slim: Dr Dreidel: cameroncrazy1984: That doesn't justify Israel's land grab. Just saying, if you tried that defense in court you'd be laughed out in five minutes.

OK. So? (and it was "The UN's land-grab", followed by "a 6-month war where indigenous people, rather than accept yet another government that wasn't made up of their own, attacked proto-Israel to prevent the UN's partition plan from being realized, then when they lost proceeded to whine about it rather than attempt to make peace.")

I'm not justifying it objectively, I'm explaining why a homeland (even one, as Herzl first wanted, in what is now Uganda) for ethnic minorities is a jury-rigged solution for a retarded human problem.

Solutions resolve problems, this doesn't really resolve anything. At best this is a temporary arrangement between either wars/genocides or people change what sort of entirely identity-based difference they are going to be obsessed about.


So in other words, you'd call it "a jury-rigged 'solution' for a retarded human problem"? (I guess I implied the quotes, but didn't use them. "Jury-rigged" was meant to imply that it's a half-solution at best.)

// just like in science, though - every answer only raises more questions
// even if they signed a peace accord tomorrow, there'd be enough anger on both sides to propel this conflict past 2020
 
2013-01-10 12:58:10 PM  

TheMysticS: /i know my derpy answer wasn't what you were looking for, but there it is.


I'm not looking for herp or for derp, I'm just looking for some of the more rabid posters in these threads to own up that they're more interested in supporting a status quo that aligns with them politically than actually having any patriotism for Israel as a country or any love for Judaism as a religion or philosophy.
 
2013-01-10 12:58:58 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Crotchrocket Slim: This was prior to the Nuremberg Acts, Jews were NOT ghettocized in Germany at the time

Did I limit it to only Germany in the 20th Century?

// "ghetto" is an Italian word
// Nazis were pissed (or, gave these as reasons at various times) both at Jews' self-segregation and intermingling with Good Germans


I felt that 20th century history- some of which people who are alive today lived through- is a lot more relevant to today's politics than shiat that happened when Caesar was around and Rome was more than a mere tourist attraction. If nothing else I felt it fair to cite at least one situation when Jews in Europe weren't second class citizens and had somewhat been accepted into society at large at least until people started looking for other people to hate for silly reasons.
 
2013-01-10 01:00:31 PM  
Don't forget that there are many Orthodox, Catholic(Vatican II ruined some of this) and some evangelical Christians etc. who believe that the Old Covenant is now obsolete and that Judaism has no claims to the terms 'chosen', 'people of God', 'Israel' and the like. That Jesus has fulfilled and taken on the roles of all the Old Covenant promises. Its called supersessionism or fulfillment theology by it's supporters and replacement theology by it's detractors. In other words, there are no true Jews anymore, and therefore they have no rights to any land anywhere, at least no more than anybody else.
 
2013-01-10 01:01:30 PM  

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


Neither is Israel.

Y'know, unless you've been asleep for 50 years. Jordan, Egypt, and more are on good, if not ambivalent, terms with Israel.
Hell, even Lebanon doesn't want to tangle with the Israelis, and Syria has its own issues.
The only nation that keeps up the derp is Iran, and their proxy of Hezbollah.
 
2013-01-10 01:01:44 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Jews. It's Jews right? We did it to ourselves?


Not on purpose, and with TONS of help, and over the course of centuries and ... not really... but guess if you wanted to play the victim you can pretend that's what he meant.

Why are Jews stereotypically associated with banks and banking?
 
2013-01-10 01:02:20 PM  

jaybeezey: We also weren't part of a group that created Canada, Frnace or Turkey out of thin air.


Again France. We created that.
 
2013-01-10 01:02:37 PM  

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


Not yet.
 
2013-01-10 01:02:48 PM  

StreetlightInTheGhetto: How many other allied nations have had spies in the US as well?


All of them?
Admittedly, most of them would be industrial/economic spies, and not the military intelligence kind.


Crotchrocket Slim: Albert911emt:

So much THIS. If we are a soveriegn nation, then we owe nothing to the UN or to Israel, and that's exactly how it should be. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to work with them, but we don't owe them anything.

What the hell does this mean? Sovereign nations are not obligated to honor the arrangements they freely entered into with other sovereign nations?


Depends on what you mean by obligation. Nations pull out of treaties all the time if their geo-political calculus says it is worth the diplomatic hit.
 
2013-01-10 01:03:59 PM  

BeesNuts: Dr Dreidel: Jews. It's Jews right? We did it to ourselves?

Not on purpose, and with TONS of help, and over the course of centuries and ... not really... but guess if you wanted to play the victim you can pretend that's what he meant.

Why are Jews stereotypically associated with banks and banking?


Shakespeare
 
2013-01-10 01:05:20 PM  
Isn't France part of another country now? I thought they surrendered to someone just recently.
 
2013-01-10 01:05:23 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Crotchrocket Slim: Dr Dreidel: cameroncrazy1984: That doesn't justify Israel's land grab. Just saying, if you tried that defense in court you'd be laughed out in five minutes.

OK. So? (and it was "The UN's land-grab", followed by "a 6-month war where indigenous people, rather than accept yet another government that wasn't made up of their own, attacked proto-Israel to prevent the UN's partition plan from being realized, then when they lost proceeded to whine about it rather than attempt to make peace.")

I'm not justifying it objectively, I'm explaining why a homeland (even one, as Herzl first wanted, in what is now Uganda) for ethnic minorities is a jury-rigged solution for a retarded human problem.

Solutions resolve problems, this doesn't really resolve anything. At best this is a temporary arrangement between either wars/genocides or people change what sort of entirely identity-based difference they are going to be obsessed about.

So in other words, you'd call it "a jury-rigged 'solution' for a retarded human problem"? (I guess I implied the quotes, but didn't use them. "Jury-rigged" was meant to imply that it's a half-solution at best.)

// just like in science, though - every answer only raises more questions
// even if they signed a peace accord tomorrow, there'd be enough anger on both sides to propel this conflict past 2020


I'd call it a very temporary, stop gap measure that if we'd ever consider implementing as official policy, we'd need to set up conditions needed to end that policy.

If nothing else, what people hate each other for changes greatly over time. You realize that even if the Nazis had finished off their Final Solution they'd have started turning inward and finding other flimsy excuses to toss people into internment camps; segregation has never been anything that people do for practical reasons.

As someone of German descent I only see obsessing over a "fatherland" for yourself, be it one you're "destined" to have or one you create out of pragmatic reasons, is just utter folly.
 
2013-01-10 01:06:01 PM  

BeesNuts: Dr Dreidel: Jews. It's Jews right? We did it to ourselves?

Not on purpose, and with TONS of help, and over the course of centuries and ... not really... but guess if you wanted to play the victim you can pretend that's what he meant.

Why are Jews stereotypically associated with banks and banking?


Part of the reason is that Christians couldn't collect interest on loans. They "sold" them to Jews, who could charge interest - leading to the twin stereotypes of Jews being bankers and Europeans reviling them. (Or so I hear.)

That, and the general focus on learning complex systems.

// why are black people stereotypically good at sports?
// I have no idea - nobody asked me when these stereotypes were created
 
2013-01-10 01:06:37 PM  

Agarista: BeesNuts: Dr Dreidel: Jews. It's Jews right? We did it to ourselves?

Not on purpose, and with TONS of help, and over the course of centuries and ... not really... but guess if you wanted to play the victim you can pretend that's what he meant.

Why are Jews stereotypically associated with banks and banking?

Shakespeare


Actually, that was from way before Shakespeare, like many of his works, the Merchant of Venice is an adaptation of an older work.
 
2013-01-10 01:06:59 PM  
Just an observation:

I've noticed that "support for Israel" is a GOP party plank, yet the Democrats get the majority of the Jewish vote. I think it's because GOP "support for Israel" seems based on a creepy evangelical belief that the end times can't occur without Israel. It's not so much that the GOP is after the Jewish vote - they're after the Jesus Freak vote.

As for the actual Jewish voters, the GOP seems quite adversarial, often condemning the Hollywood Jews for their promotion of a Liberal bias. And I know several Jews who are more than a bit disturbed by GOP hate for "Undesirables" (Jews, Blacks, Muslims, Mexicans - or as I heard one right winger sum up - 'Democrats').

Anyway, GOP opposition to this nomination probably has far more to do with the Black man in the White house than it does with Israel.
 
2013-01-10 01:08:18 PM  

PonceAlyosha: Agarista: BeesNuts: Dr Dreidel: Jews. It's Jews right? We did it to ourselves?

Not on purpose, and with TONS of help, and over the course of centuries and ... not really... but guess if you wanted to play the victim you can pretend that's what he meant.

Why are Jews stereotypically associated with banks and banking?

Shakespeare

Actually, that was from way before Shakespeare, like many of his works, the Merchant of Venice is an adaptation of an older work.


joke fail...
 
2013-01-10 01:09:37 PM  

Crotchrocket Slim: As someone of German descent I only see obsessing over a "fatherland" for yourself, be it one you're "destined" to have or one you create out of pragmatic reasons, is just utter folly.


Would that every country on Earth could be trusted 100% with the welfare of 100% of its citizens.
 
2013-01-10 01:09:52 PM  

theorellior: TheMysticS: /i know my derpy answer wasn't what you were looking for, but there it is.

I'm not looking for herp or for derp, I'm just looking for some of the more rabid posters in these threads to own up that they're more interested in supporting a status quo that aligns with them politically than actually having any patriotism for Israel as a country or any love for Judaism as a religion or philosophy.


Ok, my bad. I should have said something more like brain-addled, it was self-effacing.

And I understand what you mean. But the people that I know that are Israel-supporters go around telling everyone so (even tho nobody asked)
by bumpersticking their minivans to death with SUPPORT ISRAEL...ISRAEL IS OUR ALLY...I (STAR OF DAVID) ISRAEL, etc.
They wear the tee shirts and say the catch phrases.
But it boils down to-
*they are Christianity's religious roots,
*they are with us in what we do, and what America stands for
*Jesus ain't comin' back unless the place is destroyed, and
*they are the stewards of our holy land.
 
2013-01-10 01:10:12 PM  

BeesNuts: Dr Dreidel: Jews. It's Jews right? We did it to ourselves?

Not on purpose, and with TONS of help, and over the course of centuries and ... not really... but guess if you wanted to play the victim you can pretend that's what he meant.

Why are Jews stereotypically associated with banks and banking?


Historically being barred from owning (and thus working) land, leaving banking and more academic industries the only ones really available to them. The focus on academics in Jewish culture doesn't hurt (not sure if this arose from that situation or if that's simply been a hallmark of Jewish culture since the beginning).
 
2013-01-10 01:11:14 PM  

BeesNuts: Why are Jews stereotypically associated with banks and banking?


Usury--charging interest on a loan--is considered a sin by all Abrahamic faiths. It's not so much in use in Christian-based nations today, but "sharia banking" is a complicated system for companies in Islamic nations to get around this stricture. In Europe in the Middle Ages, Jews could loan money to Christians, but not to fellow Jews. So they became the bankers.
 
2013-01-10 01:11:33 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Crotchrocket Slim: As someone of German descent I only see obsessing over a "fatherland" for yourself, be it one you're "destined" to have or one you create out of pragmatic reasons, is just utter folly.

Would that every country on Earth could be trusted 100% with the welfare of 100% of its citizens.


In democratic republics, governments are always reflections of their constituencies. "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance" and all that.
 
2013-01-10 01:12:01 PM  

BeesNuts: Why are Jews stereotypically associated with banks and banking?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion#Structu re _and_content
]
Chapters 20 and 21
 
2013-01-10 01:15:21 PM  

Private_Citizen: Just an observation:

I've noticed that "support for Israel" is a GOP party plank, yet the Democrats get the majority of the Jewish vote. I think it's because GOP "support for Israel" seems based on a creepy evangelical belief that the end times can't occur without Israel. It's not so much that the GOP is after the Jewish vote - they're after the Jesus Freak vote.

As for the actual Jewish voters, the GOP seems quite adversarial, often condemning the Hollywood Jews for their promotion of a Liberal bias. And I know several Jews who are more than a bit disturbed by GOP hate for "Undesirables" (Jews, Blacks, Muslims, Mexicans - or as I heard one right winger sum up - 'Democrats').

Anyway, GOP opposition to this nomination probably has far more to do with the Black man in the White house than it does with Israel.


It always seemed to me like the fundy elements of the GOP base were more than happy to use Israelis as redshirts for the Apocalypse.
 
2013-01-10 01:15:24 PM  

theorellior: Usury--charging interest on a loan--is considered a sin by all Abrahamic faiths.


As I understand, in Judaism, the prohibition is against OVERLY usurous rates. If you're a banker and your business is selling loans, how do you make money without it? Selling loans is a legitimate business (ask Tommy the Shark), and one is certainly allowed to earn a living from it - but not at the expense of others' financial stability.

Implied in that (among other OT laws) is also the notion that both lender and borrower should be fully aware of the terms and costs of the loan. The lender has an obligation to ensure the borrower isn't setting themselves up for ruin.
 
2013-01-10 01:15:41 PM  

vernonFL: I am a Zionist, I believe the Jewish people should have their own country.

That being said, Israel today is a shameful apartheid state and I don't want my money supporting the current Israeli regime.


Well, Diogenes, I think you can blow out your lamp. Here is a honest man.

There was much discussion about this pre-WWII. Many thought the solution, no pun intended, to anti-Semitism was for the Jewish people to have a homeland. Palestine was only one option; Madagascar, Argentina, Uganda and other places that couldn't really say no and/or would welcome skilled, pasty immigrants were kicked around as "Jewish homelands".

But the worst land coveted by the most people was selected. Sometimes I wonder if the state of Israel, which was (let's face it) created largely as a consolation prize for the democracies' failure to stop or really even slow down the Holocaust, was in itself a subtle act of anti-Semitism.

"Man, even after most of the European ones wen to the ovens, I still dislike those Jews. Let's get the socialist, non-observant, combative nationalist ones and pack 'em next to the Orthodox, won't fight/will take handout beardie ones. We'll have to ethnically cleanse the place of Christian and Muslim Arabs who were hoping just to lose the Ottomans, and who will fester bitterly in slums for 50 years but hey, it'll be the ultimate troll!"

Talk about a not-very-secret protocol. Throw in the fundie streak that gets wet knickers over the prospect of Armageddon: The Final Countdown, and all becomes clear.

If not particularly pleasant.

/had both Jewish and Palestinian girlfriends in the day, and have heard every argument ever on the topic in between non-halal, non-kosher sexings.
 
2013-01-10 01:16:43 PM  

farkingatwork: Uncle Tractor: Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

Now why is that ...?

[i560.photobucket.com image 640x453]

uh, there are arab jews. about 50-75% of jews are arabs. That's why it's so ridiculous that they want to treat the country as an enemy and/or different when they're basically all the same people with the same hereditary background.


Welcome to Ulster, ye baaasturd...
 
2013-01-10 01:19:25 PM  

Dr Dreidel: As I understand, in Judaism, the prohibition is against OVERLY usurous rates. If you're a banker and your business is selling loans, how do you make money without it? Selling loans is a legitimate business (ask Tommy the Shark), and one is certainly allowed to earn a living from it - but not at the expense of others' financial stability.


Tru dat, but Christians in the Middle Ages wouldn't hear about that namby-pamby splitting of hairs. THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU TO CHARGE NO INTEREST!

Even with sharia banking, it's probably one of the obstacles that keeps the Muslim world from developing faster.
 
2013-01-10 01:19:34 PM  

Crotchrocket Slim: Private_Citizen: Just an observation:

I've noticed that "support for Israel" is a GOP party plank, yet the Democrats get the majority of the Jewish vote. I think it's because GOP "support for Israel" seems based on a creepy evangelical belief that the end times can't occur without Israel. It's not so much that the GOP is after the Jewish vote - they're after the Jesus Freak vote.

As for the actual Jewish voters, the GOP seems quite adversarial, often condemning the Hollywood Jews for their promotion of a Liberal bias. And I know several Jews who are more than a bit disturbed by GOP hate for "Undesirables" (Jews, Blacks, Muslims, Mexicans - or as I heard one right winger sum up - 'Democrats').

Anyway, GOP opposition to this nomination probably has far more to do with the Black man in the White house than it does with Israel.

It always seemed to me like the fundy elements of the GOP base were more than happy to use Israelis as redshirts for the Apocalypse.


Exactly. You can't draw out the bad guys for the main event without some well placed bait
 
2013-01-10 01:20:25 PM  

people: meh



My old synagogue (admittedly, we were reform) always interpreted that command to mean to be more moral. To be a pillar of the community, as it were.
 
2013-01-10 01:20:57 PM  

Agarista: Am I right in assuming that all supporters of a Jewish state are also supporters of a Kurdish state?


No whey.
 
2013-01-10 01:26:39 PM  

theorellior: Christians in the Middle Ages wouldn't hear about that namby-pamby splitting of hairs. THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU TO CHARGE NO INTEREST!


I wonder if this had to do with large religious institutions (who shall remain nameless) wanting interest-free loans.
 
2013-01-10 01:27:21 PM  

Valiente: vernonFL: I am a Zionist, I believe the Jewish people should have their own country.

That being said, Israel today is a shameful apartheid state and I don't want my money supporting the current Israeli regime.

Well, Diogenes, I think you can blow out your lamp. Here is a honest man.

There was much discussion about this pre-WWII. Many thought the solution, no pun intended, to anti-Semitism was for the Jewish people to have a homeland. Palestine was only one option; Madagascar, Argentina, Uganda and other places that couldn't really say no and/or would welcome skilled, pasty immigrants were kicked around as "Jewish homelands".

But the worst land coveted by the most people was selected. Sometimes I wonder if the state of Israel, which was (let's face it) created largely as a consolation prize for the democracies' failure to stop or really even slow down the Holocaust, was in itself a subtle act of anti-Semitism.

"Man, even after most of the European ones wen to the ovens, I still dislike those Jews. Let's get the socialist, non-observant, combative nationalist ones and pack 'em next to the Orthodox, won't fight/will take handout beardie ones. We'll have to ethnically cleanse the place of Christian and Muslim Arabs who were hoping just to lose the Ottomans, and who will fester bitterly in slums for 50 years but hey, it'll be the ultimate troll!"

Talk about a not-very-secret protocol. Throw in the fundie streak that gets wet knickers over the prospect of Armageddon: The Final Countdown, and all becomes clear.

If not particularly pleasant.

/had both Jewish and Palestinian girlfriends in the day, and have heard every argument ever on the topic in between non-halal, non-kosher sexings.


I wish I had just let you post what I wanted to say in this thread. Damn well said.
 
2013-01-10 01:28:21 PM  

Dr Dreidel: theorellior: Christians in the Middle Ages wouldn't hear about that namby-pamby splitting of hairs. THE POWER OF CHRIST COMPELS YOU TO CHARGE NO INTEREST!

I wonder if this had to do with large religious institutions (who shall remain nameless) wanting interest-free loans.


It's cool to name it, not even practicing Roman Catholics trust their Church.
 
2013-01-10 01:32:06 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Amos Quito: The goal of the (largely secular) Zionists in creating the "Jewish State" was not to protect Jews from "anti-Semitism", but to prevent Jews from assimilation.

Also from world leaders up and deciding that Jews (in general, or perhaps one group or person in particular) were a nuisance and were no longer required. Over the last 1,000 years, Jews were expelled from pretty much every country in Europe - twice. In the last 50 years, half - HALF! - of Jews in Europe were killed by the state, 2/3 of Polish Jews (where the bulk of the European community was) gone. Untold thousands of relics from pretty much every part of Jewish history over the last 2,000 years were destroyed, burned, looted or otherwise made unavailable.

But no. Jews don't need anything like a homeland - we have the US, for god's sake! A nation whose leaders have believed that Jews killed Jesus, engaged in blood libels (not to mention the virulent anti-Semitism displayed both by officials in government and slack-jawed yokels alike against Werner Brandeis, Caspar Weinberger, and pretty much any Jew in government until at least 1980 - hell, Dick Nixon was a RAGING anti-Semite, slagging his enemies as "damn Jews" on tape), support Israel so Jews can DIAF pre-Jesus and pay lip-service to the "Judeo"-Christian founding of the country by ignoring our religious heritage (California's proposed circumcision ban, for example).

I'd prefer it if it wasn't needed (the same way I'd prefer it if no country had an official religion), and I'm presenting worst-case scenarios (so no, I don't expect Holocaust 2 to hit the US' shores anytime soon), but you'd have to be some kind of idiot to not recognize why an ethnic group with a history described by scholars as "the shiat end of the stick" (apologies to Jon Stewart) should have a place to call home, even if it's on the other side of the world.


So because Jews have had a rough history they deserve a homeland? Great ... Let them pay for it themselves. My tax dollars shouldn't.have to fund it.
 
2013-01-10 01:32:39 PM  

BeesNuts: Dr Dreidel: Jews. It's Jews right? We did it to ourselves?

Not on purpose, and with TONS of help, and over the course of centuries and ... not really... but guess if you wanted to play the victim you can pretend that's what he meant.

Why are Jews stereotypically associated with banks and banking?


Because (and subsequently ironically), Christians in the Middle Ages weren't allowed to lend money/charge interest for religious reasons, AND they chose to shut out Jews from most of the professions because of religious hatred, so Jews went into banking because beaver hats hadn't been invented yet.

More than one king did more than one pogrom/mass expulsion/partial slaughter of the local Jews in order to avoid repaying a huge loan.

So the question is really "given the history, why did the Jews stay in banking?"
 
2013-01-10 01:34:18 PM  

earthworm2.0: So because Jews have had a rough history they deserve a homeland? Great ... Let them pay for it themselves. My tax dollars shouldn't.have to fund it.


I agree (though more as a trial balloon than a Final...you get it). Let's start winding down that aid year-by-year - if Israel can't live without it, they (and we, as their ally) should know; and if they can, super!
 
2013-01-10 01:35:56 PM  

earthworm2.0:
So because Jews have had a rough history they deserve a homeland? Great ... Let them pay for it themselves ...


I propose a moratorium on this sort of posting and the general idea of "my tax dollars should only go to things I personally approve of a la carte style". Democracy does not work this way nor was it ever intended to. Does anyone second this?
 
2013-01-10 01:36:42 PM  

Crotchrocket Slim: Private_Citizen: Just an observation:

I've noticed that "support for Israel" is a GOP party plank, yet the Democrats get the majority of the Jewish vote. I think it's because GOP "support for Israel" seems based on a creepy evangelical belief that the end times can't occur without Israel. It's not so much that the GOP is after the Jewish vote - they're after the Jesus Freak vote.

As for the actual Jewish voters, the GOP seems quite adversarial, often condemning the Hollywood Jews for their promotion of a Liberal bias. And I know several Jews who are more than a bit disturbed by GOP hate for "Undesirables" (Jews, Blacks, Muslims, Mexicans - or as I heard one right winger sum up - 'Democrats').

Anyway, GOP opposition to this nomination probably has far more to do with the Black man in the White house than it does with Israel.

It always seemed to me like the fundy elements of the GOP base were more than happy to use Israelis as redshirts for the Apocalypse.


It's indeed unfortunate that I was drinking coffee when I read that phrase. What a great band name. What a great Klezmer band name.
 
2013-01-10 01:36:43 PM  

Agarista: BeesNuts: Dr Dreidel: Jews. It's Jews right? We did it to ourselves?

Not on purpose, and with TONS of help, and over the course of centuries and ... not really... but guess if you wanted to play the victim you can pretend that's what he meant.

Why are Jews stereotypically associated with banks and banking?

Shakespeare


Yup... Shakespeare totally made up the idea of a Jewish Usurer taking pounds of flesh from good Christians on his own. That's why the play was so popular... nobody understood it. -_-

Alternatively, during the Crusades, there was a need to loan and transfer money from party to party. As there was a Christian moratorium on charging interest, this was clearly a difficulty to be overcome. Fortunately, the Jews at the time were reading Deuteronomy a little differently and didn't consider gentiles to be "their brothers" and therefore they weren't beholden to such prohibitions.

For nearly 200 years, bankers in Europe were almost universally Jewish. Christians thought this was Usury and kind of reluctantly dealt with these bankers. This was the first socio-economic friction between Jews and Christians. Before that it was all theological, but banking brought it into the real. Centuries of friction led the Jews to become increasingly insular and reluctant to assimilate or be assimilated. Obviously, the source of their social power became the new primary source of their status as outcasts, but the maintenance of this social power was more important, at that time, than being friends with the gentiles. Plus, as an added bonus, the gentiles were dealing with all the Arabs that were camped out in Jerusalem, which put a smile on their faces.

Heck, even the notion of Gentiles denotes a sort of self-segregation. "We are the Jews" The only other kind of people in the world are Non-Jews."

The Jews have a TREMENDOUS amount of history. And while not all of it is positive the vast majority is at least neutral. The problem is that you go traipsing down memory lane with Judaism and you can't help but stumble on some pitfalls that help inform the current situation... and then realize that those pitfalls are informed by previous pitfalls... stretching back like 1500 years.

/Whose "fault" was WWI? is a less complicated question than "whose fault is Palestine"
 
2013-01-10 01:37:39 PM  
USS Liberty
Stolen nuclear materials and information
Iran-Contra
\list continues
\\new fark handle suggestion: Balfour Declination? :)
 
2013-01-10 01:37:46 PM  

Dr Dreidel: I wonder if this had to do with large religious institutions (who shall remain nameless) wanting interest-free loans.


Or competition.
 
2013-01-10 01:40:49 PM  

Crotchrocket Slim: earthworm2.0:
So because Jews have had a rough history they deserve a homeland? Great ... Let them pay for it themselves ...

I propose a moratorium on this sort of posting and the general idea of "my tax dollars should only go to things I personally approve of a la carte style". Democracy does not work this way nor was it ever intended to. Does anyone second this?


I'm OK with it, although I want to ban airbags and seatbelts (the root cause of speeding) because my sister needs a liver and assholes aren't signing enough donor cards, which should be negative option.

TL;DR: Religion ruins everything.
 
2013-01-10 01:41:59 PM  

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.

 
2013-01-10 01:43:50 PM  

BeesNuts: the gentiles were dealing with all the Arabs that were camped out in Jerusalem, which put a smile on their faces.


This was during a period of relative cooperation between Jews and Muslims. I think. There have been so many (and more than one Crusade, too), so I can't be sure this is the same time you're referring to.

Anyway, Jews and Muslims have not always been at each others' throats.
 
2013-01-10 01:45:53 PM  

Fissile: in a few decades there will be more Israeli citizens of Arab descent than Jews


Um....
 
2013-01-10 01:50:14 PM  

Valiente: Crotchrocket Slim: earthworm2.0:
So because Jews have had a rough history they deserve a homeland? Great ... Let them pay for it themselves ...

I propose a moratorium on this sort of posting and the general idea of "my tax dollars should only go to things I personally approve of a la carte style". Democracy does not work this way nor was it ever intended to. Does anyone second this?

I'm OK with it, although I want to ban airbags and seatbelts (the root cause of speeding) because my sister needs a liver and assholes aren't signing enough donor cards, which should be negative option.

TL;DR: Religion ruins everything.


You just reminded me I need to check that organ donor option the next time I'm getting a new license. Thanks!
 
2013-01-10 01:50:31 PM  
Be it the far left or the far right both have reasons to throw money at Israel that are not in American interests. We don't have to support Greece to prove we don't hate Greek people. Israel has enough nukes to defend itself.
 
2013-01-10 01:50:42 PM  
Remember, if you build a house in a flood plain and it gets destroyed in a hurricane, that's your fault and the government should leave you to your own devices.

If you build a country by taking land from the indigenous population and then proceed to flip off every country for a thousand miles while implementing various morally questionable policies towards that population, it's our duty to protect you at all costs.
 
2013-01-10 01:50:53 PM  
Still find it terribly amusing how a nation can win two wars and yet the defeated people and others (including people whose nation got large swaths of their own sovereign land by winning it in wars) can say "OMG, that's not fair, give the land back to the people you won it from!" Life isn't fair, farking deal with it.

/let's give the entire SW back to Mexico before we cry about Israel... or is the issue that their wars were too recent to qualify?
//we don't behave any better towards illegal Latinos. Not shooting them doesn't make our behavior justified--or any different.
///Clean our own house before trying to help them clean theirs.
 
2013-01-10 01:54:06 PM  

Agarista: PonceAlyosha: Agarista: BeesNuts: Dr Dreidel: Jews. It's Jews right? We did it to ourselves?

Not on purpose, and with TONS of help, and over the course of centuries and ... not really... but guess if you wanted to play the victim you can pretend that's what he meant.

Why are Jews stereotypically associated with banks and banking?

Shakespeare

Actually, that was from way before Shakespeare, like many of his works, the Merchant of Venice is an adaptation of an older work.

joke fail...


It was quite the fail. I'm glad people actually know something about that.

I think some people have the timing of the diaspora and the banking stuff mixed up. Jews lived happily and prosperously in Spain until about 1500. The Banking vs Usury shiat started up in the 1100s. Jews were permitted to hold land and jobs in large swathes of Europe until at least 1300. After that is was a frog boiling in water situation for like... 400 years.

But it's nice to know you weren't being serious with the Shakespeare bit.
 
2013-01-10 01:55:21 PM  
Can anyone guess the real reason DC is so interested in relations with Israel despite them being a worthless albatross around our neck?

The US government cannot, legally, spy on US citizens.

Foreign countries, however, can. And nothing stops them from 'sharing' it. Look up AMDOCs (I applied for a job there once and was pretty appalled).

That's it except for a few nutcases wanting the world to end and a whole bunch of sheeple just spewing crap someone else told them.
 
2013-01-10 01:56:58 PM  

Aigoo: Still find it terribly amusing how a nation can win two wars and yet the defeated people and others (including people whose nation got large swaths of their own sovereign land by winning it in wars) can say "OMG, that's not fair, give the land back to the people you won it from!" Life isn't fair, farking deal with it.

/let's give the entire SW back to Mexico before we cry about Israel... or is the issue that their wars were too recent to qualify?
//we don't behave any better towards illegal Latinos. Not shooting them doesn't make our behavior justified--or any different.
///Clean our own house before trying to help them clean theirs.


And before givining them more shiat to smear on their walls...
 
2013-01-10 02:03:06 PM  

BeesNuts: Agarista: PonceAlyosha: Agarista: BeesNuts: Dr Dreidel: Jews. It's Jews right? We did it to ourselves?

Not on purpose, and with TONS of help, and over the course of centuries and ... not really... but guess if you wanted to play the victim you can pretend that's what he meant.

Why are Jews stereotypically associated with banks and banking?

Shakespeare

Actually, that was from way before Shakespeare, like many of his works, the Merchant of Venice is an adaptation of an older work.

joke fail...

It was quite the fail. I'm glad people actually know something about that.

I think some people have the timing of the diaspora and the banking stuff mixed up. Jews lived happily and prosperously in Spain until about 1500. The Banking vs Usury shiat started up in the 1100s. Jews were permitted to hold land and jobs in large swathes of Europe until at least 1300. After that is was a frog boiling in water situation for like... 400 years.

But it's nice to know you weren't being serious with the Shakespeare bit.


I taught the history of classical theater for two years, even directed Merchant back in '96.
Like so many other on this site, nearly all of what I post requires /snark /end snark tags.
 
2013-01-10 02:04:46 PM  

Dr Dreidel: BeesNuts: the gentiles were dealing with all the Arabs that were camped out in Jerusalem, which put a smile on their faces.

This was during a period of relative cooperation between Jews and Muslims. I think. There have been so many (and more than one Crusade, too), so I can't be sure this is the same time you're referring to.

Anyway, Jews and Muslims have not always been at each others' throats.


Nope. In fact they were united against the Christians until ... well pretty much the formation of modern Isreal, with some other notable exceptions.

Christians had a much more integrated role in Israel (more specifically Jerusalem) until the middle of the 1800s when they promptly stopped giving a shiat about specific land and more about having shiatloads of members.

And while I've heard it claimed that the Jews are at fault for the current animosity, I'm not at all willing to go that far. But it absolutely *must* be acknowledged that this situation isn't 50 years in the making, but more like 500. If I were to rewrite a thesis I wrote in college, it'd probably be something along the lines of:
"While modern history is replete with examples of conflict between Jews and Arabs, the true catalysts of this conflict is now and always has been the Christians."

But that's mostly because I think that would be a fun paper to write.
 
2013-01-10 02:06:58 PM  

Agarista: BeesNuts: Agarista: PonceAlyosha: Agarista: BeesNuts: Dr Dreidel: Jews. It's Jews right? We did it to ourselves?

Not on purpose, and with TONS of help, and over the course of centuries and ... not really... but guess if you wanted to play the victim you can pretend that's what he meant.

Why are Jews stereotypically associated with banks and banking?

Shakespeare

Actually, that was from way before Shakespeare, like many of his works, the Merchant of Venice is an adaptation of an older work.

joke fail...

It was quite the fail. I'm glad people actually know something about that.

I think some people have the timing of the diaspora and the banking stuff mixed up. Jews lived happily and prosperously in Spain until about 1500. The Banking vs Usury shiat started up in the 1100s. Jews were permitted to hold land and jobs in large swathes of Europe until at least 1300. After that is was a frog boiling in water situation for like... 400 years.

But it's nice to know you weren't being serious with the Shakespeare bit.

I taught the history of classical theater for two years, even directed Merchant back in '96.
Like so many other on this site, nearly all of what I post requires /snark /end snark tags.


Do you like the play? Out of curiosity. I've seen it live twice and on film once or twice. I've always thought it had terrible dialogue and character development but PHENOMENAL settings. It's gotta be one of W.S.'s "prettiest" plays... if you can say that about the playwrite's intent... but damn if it's not boring as all hell.
 
2013-01-10 02:10:56 PM  
hey HEY, what about assault rifles?
 
2013-01-10 02:11:51 PM  

Aigoo: let's give the entire SW back to Mexico before we cry about Israel... or is the issue that their wars were too recent to qualify?


How about as an alternative, we add an Amendment to the US Constitution saying that every single person born in New Mexico has full American citizenship, with the ability to freely travel anywhere in the country at any time without restriction. Also, maybe we could add something to our Constitution that gives New Mexico residents full representation in the United States federal government. And then, maybe we could add 200 years of Constitutional amendments, laws, and legal precedent to say that residents of New Mexico have the full free and unfettered right to trade goods and services with the residents of every other state, with minimal restriction or tariffs.

I tell you what... as soon as the United States does those things for New Mexico, will you do the same for the West Bank and the Gaza Strip?
 
2013-01-10 02:17:43 PM  
The dramaturge gave the go-ahead for it to be done in a sci-fi dystopic setting, so perhaps the only thing you liked about it was destroyed. The 'caskets' were huge wheeled coffins that the incorrect suitors were dragged into. Jessica comes down from her balcony in a cherry-picker. All the Christians wore white and silver, with swimcaps to further their de-individualization. The two (and a half - Jessica changed clothes as she ran away) Jews wore full orthodox gear, so that the black and colors would really stand out. Each of the Christians also wore a silver cross, which they hung on Shylock as they walked out on him during the trial. I had a great deal of fun with it, and only removed about 30 words from the second quarto edition.
 
2013-01-10 02:20:55 PM  

Gulper Eel: Canada, France and Turkey aren't surrounded by countries who want to wipe them off the face of the earth.


Well France sort of is. The Germans are overdue.
 
2013-01-10 02:24:03 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Amos Quito: Dr Dreidel: Amos Quito: The goal of the (largely secular) Zionists in creating the "Jewish State" was not to protect Jews from "anti-Semitism", but to prevent Jews from assimilation.

Also from world leaders up and deciding that Jews (in general, or perhaps one group or person in particular) were a nuisance and were no longer required. Over the last 1,000 years, Jews were expelled from pretty much every country in Europe - twice.

Can you spot the common denominator?

Jews. It's Jews right? We did it to ourselves?

So how do you feel about the idea of Jews fully assimilating? Hard to "persecute" a "group" that does not self-identify (and self-identification is largely the ONLY identifying characteristic of this particular group)

So if only we lost our history and heritage, we could finally be accepted by the (presumably white American/European) majority? How about "go fark yourself with a side of rice"?



So you're smart enough to recognize the core of the problem, but to stubborn to do anything about it? Hope you like your history. Looks like you'll be reliving it. Again.


// why are Jews - forget about Israel - the only group not allowed to have its own identity?


They're not. Many groups have abandoned their identity. That doesn't mean that they were all murdered. Run into any Ottomans lately?


// why am I arguing with an anti-Semite?


Anti-Semitism could not exist in the absence of Semitism.


// why do I allow myself to be dragged into these threads time after time?


Because you (and yours) stubbornly cling to anti-social beliefs and practices despite the fact that they harm you, over and over again?
 
2013-01-10 02:24:16 PM  

The Larch: I tell you what... as soon as the United States does those things for New Mexico, will you do the same for the West Bank and the Gaza Strip?


As soon as the Gaza Strip agrees to be part of Israel, sure.

The Gaza Strip now has its own boundaries and elected government, they've never wanted to be part of Israel (as an entity), and Israel was/is reluctant to annex Gaza after '67. What you seem to be implying is that Gazans should get all the privileges of Israeli citizenship without actually being Israelis.

// like Quebeckian separatists?
 
2013-01-10 02:31:38 PM  
Anti-Semitism could not exist in the absence of Semitism.

Amos Quito: Dr Dreidel: Amos Quito: Dr Dreidel: Amos Quito:


// why am I arguing with an anti-Semite?


Anti-Semitism could not exist in the absence of Semitism.


The term Semite means a member of any of various ancient and modern Semitic-speaking peoples originating in southwestern Asia, including; Akkadians (Assyrians and Babylonians), Eblaites, Ugarites, Canaanites, Phoenicians (including Carthaginians), Hebrews (Israelites, Judeans and Samaritans), Ahlamu, Arameans, Chaldeans, Amorites, Moabites, Edomites, Hyksos, Arabs, Nabateans, Maganites, Shebans, Sutu, Ubarites, Dilmunites, Bahranis, Maltese, Mandaeans, Sabians, Syriacs, Mhallami, Amalekites and Ethiopian Semites.
 
2013-01-10 02:33:29 PM