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(IGN)   WTF is this?? Just give us a new console already   (ign.com) divider line 118
    More: Asinine, Microsoft, Ces, IllumiRoom, universe, software visualization  
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13350 clicks; posted to Geek » on 10 Jan 2013 at 10:10 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-10 05:51:16 PM  

frepnog: ProfessorOhki: washington-babylon: Vaneshi: Nemo's Brother:
If more PC gamers actually purchased their games instead of pirating them, there would be more incentive for game makers to cater to your crowd. As it is, eat the bowl of dicks you made.

And the guy down the market selling chip'd 360's says you console scum can't be trusted any more than the 'glorious PC gaming master race' can.

Besides which, why the hell would a PC gamer pirate anything? Just wait for the damn steam sale.

Why game piracy is almost dead for many developers.

It's almost funny how that works. It's like obtaining the game and feeling like you got a good deal on it is actually more enjoyable than obtaining the game for no cost. Not because one necessarily grapples with the ethics of piracy but because, "LOOK HOW MUCH MONEY I SAVED!" Consumer psychology is weird.

Say what you will about Valve, but from a business perspective, they're freaking geniuses.

/Which is amazing for a company
//with no concept of scheduling

i love steam and I am glad that they turn a profit but let's not pretend that there are not more pirated copies of oh say L4D2 out there being played right now than at any one time the official paid copy is being played on steam.

for instance - Torchlight 2. over 1 million copies sold.

Pirated over 5 MILLION TIMES.


Where are your numbers from? Same people that calculate the value of police drug hauls, or lost movie and CD sales? I'm not saying it hasn't been pirated, but I suspect 5 million might be a bit inflated.

3 bought-and-paid-for copies on Steam libraries in this house (Mine, son's and wife's) of L4D2.

Just finished the main mission on Borderlands 2, looking to enjoy the DLC (all activated on Steam, no Russian VPN required, either).

I consider it well worth $20~25 for an A-list game, and Steam has certainly made the possible. I have a huge backlog, but like BL2, when I start playing, I usually play them through all the way.

/Reformed pirate here, too
//BlackOps2 scored over a $billion in 15 days.
 
2013-01-10 05:56:37 PM  

Nemo's Brother: If more PC gamers actually purchased their games instead of pirating them, there would be more incentive for game makers to cater to your crowd. As it is, eat the bowl of dicks you made.



My huge list of games purchased on Steam - and Steam's success in general - belies both your statements.

No, the real problem is modern consoles are small, old PC's so porting games to them isn't as hard to do as it once was. Considering that, if you're a game developer which do you choose to do?
1. Create a game just for PC
2. Create a game you can port to PC, Xbox and PS3

Option 2 gets you a much, much bigger market to sell to, which is why they do it. It's a logical choice, and I certainly don't blame someone for making it... I just hate the consequences. It's kind of nice not to have to build a new gaming rig every year to keep up, but when I haven't built a new rig in around 4-5 years (OK, I *did* upgrade the video card two years ago when I saw a nice sale - not that I needed to) and my machine is still overpowered for the software coming out then something is up.

And that something is crippling the pace of graphics development.
 
2013-01-10 06:01:55 PM  

frepnog: for instance - Torchlight 2. over 1 million copies sold.

Pirated over 5 MILLION TIMES.


Source? Besides which what's the cross-over between those two groups as they are mutually exclusive? What's the margin for error on the statistics? The effects of piracy are dramatically overstated on PC and it's just as dramatically understated on consoles.

Usually because the company involved is either A) selling a console themselves or B) looking for an excuse to ditch a given platform.

I suspect 360 piracy will become a major issue if/when Microsoft release a new one and their is a cross-over period, same for Sony and the PS4/PS3.
 
2013-01-10 06:06:52 PM  

mongbiohazard: And that something is crippling the pace of graphics development.


Not just graphics development. Poke at the silicon in a modern console and it's an in-order execution; it really hates those nasty jumping loops you'd expect in a game (like good AI). So your PC (which is optimised for out-of-order execution) really is just puttering along.

Does the Unreal 3 engine (which seems to be the most commonly used engine on console and ports) even know what to do with 1GB+ of VRAM?
 
2013-01-10 06:23:58 PM  

Vaneshi: mongbiohazard: And that something is crippling the pace of graphics development.

Not just graphics development. Poke at the silicon in a modern console and it's an in-order execution; it really hates those nasty jumping loops you'd expect in a game (like good AI). So your PC (which is optimised for out-of-order execution) really is just puttering along.

Does the Unreal 3 engine (which seems to be the most commonly used engine on console and ports) even know what to do with 1GB+ of VRAM?



Yeah, seriously. I have 16 gigs of RAM in my machine, not counting the graphics card. Even Skyrim, with it's huge open world and AFTER they patched the PC version to use more of your available hardware, only uses 4 gigs of that system RAM I believe, and if I'm not mistaken my graphics card has 2 more gigs that it's not using fully either.

One of my little sister's friends was asking me about upgrading his PC the other day and wanted to know how much RAM to add (he's running Win 7 64-bit). I told him RAM was cheap and all, but if it was going to break his budget don't bother putting more than 8 gigs in there, his games aren't going to be using it anyway.
 
2013-01-10 06:39:20 PM  

Theaetetus: TheOriginalEd: The effect would have been more impressive ifthey didnt have those damn shelving units mucking up the picture. Imagine how this might look in a room dedicated just to it.

[farm4.staticflickr.com image 640x480]
What a room dedicated to it may look like.

Seriously, this is a projector without a screen plus a regular TV in the middle so that you can get a decent image in the center of your view. You could also just use a giant projection screen. In fact, I have one with an 11' diagonal, and it's awesome for gaming.

... that said, this is actually kind of interesting, in that:
(i) since the damn shelving units are mucking up the picture and you've got the TV for high-resolution in the middle, you can significantly reduce your resolution on the projector part and cover a large area with low-polygon particle effects without affecting frame rate;
(ii) by first modeling the room and warping the projected image accordingly, stuff can "flow" onto the floor and ceiling while maintaining proper perspective, which would add to the immersion;
(iii) by using a camera and projecting an image of the wall onto the wall, they can do that effect shown in the video where your actual living room and all the objects in it appear to recoil slightly with every gunshot or impact.

I think it's pretty slick, honestly. Though I want a new console, too.


I wonder how well it would play out in your big dedicated room.  Would they just say "oh, your screen is big enough, lets just use it"?  Or would they show a bunch of superfluous junk outside your normal field of vision?
 
2013-01-10 06:48:48 PM  

mongbiohazard: Vaneshi: mongbiohazard: And that something is crippling the pace of graphics development.

Not just graphics development. Poke at the silicon in a modern console and it's an in-order execution; it really hates those nasty jumping loops you'd expect in a game (like good AI). So your PC (which is optimised for out-of-order execution) really is just puttering along.

Does the Unreal 3 engine (which seems to be the most commonly used engine on console and ports) even know what to do with 1GB+ of VRAM?


Yeah, seriously. I have 16 gigs of RAM in my machine, not counting the graphics card. Even Skyrim, with it's huge open world and AFTER they patched the PC version to use more of your available hardware, only uses 4 gigs of that system RAM I believe, and if I'm not mistaken my graphics card has 2 more gigs that it's not using fully either.

One of my little sister's friends was asking me about upgrading his PC the other day and wanted to know how much RAM to add (he's running Win 7 64-bit). I told him RAM was cheap and all, but if it was going to break his budget don't bother putting more than 8 gigs in there, his games aren't going to be using it anyway.


Go triple screen, the Vram on the cards gets chewed up *fast* :)
 
2013-01-10 07:00:03 PM  

LesserEvil: frepnog: ProfessorOhki: washington-babylon: Vaneshi: Nemo's Brother:
If more PC gamers actually purchased their games instead of pirating them, there would be more incentive for game makers to cater to your crowd. As it is, eat the bowl of dicks you made.

And the guy down the market selling chip'd 360's says you console scum can't be trusted any more than the 'glorious PC gaming master race' can.

Besides which, why the hell would a PC gamer pirate anything? Just wait for the damn steam sale.

Why game piracy is almost dead for many developers.

It's almost funny how that works. It's like obtaining the game and feeling like you got a good deal on it is actually more enjoyable than obtaining the game for no cost. Not because one necessarily grapples with the ethics of piracy but because, "LOOK HOW MUCH MONEY I SAVED!" Consumer psychology is weird.

Say what you will about Valve, but from a business perspective, they're freaking geniuses.

/Which is amazing for a company
//with no concept of scheduling

i love steam and I am glad that they turn a profit but let's not pretend that there are not more pirated copies of oh say L4D2 out there being played right now than at any one time the official paid copy is being played on steam.

for instance - Torchlight 2. over 1 million copies sold.

Pirated over 5 MILLION TIMES.

Where are your numbers from? Same people that calculate the value of police drug hauls, or lost movie and CD sales? I'm not saying it hasn't been pirated, but I suspect 5 million might be a bit inflated.

3 bought-and-paid-for copies on Steam libraries in this house (Mine, son's and wife's) of L4D2.

Just finished the main mission on Borderlands 2, looking to enjoy the DLC (all activated on Steam, no Russian VPN required, either).


Yeah, well, I own a license to Borderlands 2 and never played it. That's like REVERSE PIRACY.

/Came with video card
//Download would take too long
///Yeah, yeah, I know it's good
 
2013-01-10 07:10:10 PM  

serial_crusher: Theaetetus: TheOriginalEd: The effect would have been more impressive ifthey didnt have those damn shelving units mucking up the picture. Imagine how this might look in a room dedicated just to it.

[farm4.staticflickr.com image 640x480]
What a room dedicated to it may look like.

Seriously, this is a projector without a screen plus a regular TV in the middle so that you can get a decent image in the center of your view. You could also just use a giant projection screen. In fact, I have one with an 11' diagonal, and it's awesome for gaming.

... that said, this is actually kind of interesting, in that:
(i) since the damn shelving units are mucking up the picture and you've got the TV for high-resolution in the middle, you can significantly reduce your resolution on the projector part and cover a large area with low-polygon particle effects without affecting frame rate;
(ii) by first modeling the room and warping the projected image accordingly, stuff can "flow" onto the floor and ceiling while maintaining proper perspective, which would add to the immersion;
(iii) by using a camera and projecting an image of the wall onto the wall, they can do that effect shown in the video where your actual living room and all the objects in it appear to recoil slightly with every gunshot or impact.

I think it's pretty slick, honestly. Though I want a new console, too.

I wonder how well it would play out in your big dedicated room. Would they just say "oh, your screen is big enough, lets just use it"? Or would they show a bunch of superfluous junk outside your normal field of vision?


I wonder what sort of projection they're using. If it's a bunch of short throws from near the screen or from behind the viewer w/ the screen cut out. If it's the latter, it would work terribly in that room (or with any projector set up), the secondary projector would have to be able to project a bigger image than the primary projector. That would would mean it'd have to be a fisheye (I think it's fisheye, optics are rusty) or really farking far away and higher powered. If they're short throws, you could fire them up on the other 4 adjacent surfaces and it'd be sort of awesome; poor man's IMAX dome.

Personally, I don't think projectors are conducive to the main action of most games, unless it was specifically designed for it. RockBand is sort of cool looking on a projector, but having to look so far up to see "down field" screws with your reading something fierce if you shift your gaze. Contrast that to something like BeatHazard (Astroids, if you're so inclined) where you're usually only focused on your ship and everything outside of a certain radius is noise already.

That said, their demo is pretty cool and I think I might take a shot at implementing it for fun; I've got all the hardware lying around somewhere anyway.
 
2013-01-10 08:15:23 PM  

Tommy Moo: Check out this video if you have a minute: Link

Sure, there's a leap from PS2 to PS3, but do you really think it's the same size as the leap between PS1 and PS2?


I watched the video (thanks!) and I see what you're talking about. No, there is not such an obvious leap between the PS2 & PS3 (it's obvious but not AS obvious). The PS1 was a 32bit machine though, and going to 64bit was a big leap. The graphics processor in the PS3 is a dinosaur by today's standards though.

So you have convinced me that there are diminishing returns, but I hardly feel that is a reason to stop upgrading the hardware. Does it really make a difference in game play? I believe it makes for a more immersive experience when graphics are smoother and when rendering is faster. It's been six or seven years since the last upgrade. Bring on the next generation. It will look fantastic.
 
2013-01-10 11:15:58 PM  

red5ish: Tommy Moo: Check out this video if you have a minute: Link

Sure, there's a leap from PS2 to PS3, but do you really think it's the same size as the leap between PS1 and PS2?

I watched the video (thanks!) and I see what you're talking about. No, there is not such an obvious leap between the PS2 & PS3 (it's obvious but not AS obvious). The PS1 was a 32bit machine though, and going to 64bit was a big leap. The graphics processor in the PS3 is a dinosaur by today's standards though.

So you have convinced me that there are diminishing returns, but I hardly feel that is a reason to stop upgrading the hardware. Does it really make a difference in game play? I believe it makes for a more immersive experience when graphics are smoother and when rendering is faster. It's been six or seven years since the last upgrade. Bring on the next generation. It will look fantastic.


But without HD, that video doesn't show what it was intending to show. Of course the gap between PS2 and PS3 isn't as great when you're watching them both at 480p; there's only so much detail to notice at such a low resolution.
 
2013-01-11 12:50:01 AM  

a flock of birds: But without HD, that video doesn't show what it was intending to show. Of course the gap between PS2 and PS3 isn't as great when you're watching them both at 480p; there's only so much detail to notice at such a low resolution


I've played on pretty much every console since the early Atari boxes. Every generation has seen an improvement.
(With the Dreamcast being much better than anything else at the time, but I never owned one.)
There is a noticeable improvement between the last gen and the current generation of consoles.
 
2013-01-11 01:31:01 AM  

red5ish: Tommy Moo: Check out this video if you have a minute: Link

Sure, there's a leap from PS2 to PS3, but do you really think it's the same size as the leap between PS1 and PS2?

I watched the video (thanks!) and I see what you're talking about. No, there is not such an obvious leap between the PS2 & PS3 (it's obvious but not AS obvious). The PS1 was a 32bit machine though, and going to 64bit was a big leap. The graphics processor in the PS3 is a dinosaur by today's standards though.

So you have convinced me that there are diminishing returns, but I hardly feel that is a reason to stop upgrading the hardware. Does it really make a difference in game play? I believe it makes for a more immersive experience when graphics are smoother and when rendering is faster. It's been six or seven years since the last upgrade. Bring on the next generation. It will look fantastic.


Except at some point, it become far too costly to produce assets for games with increased graphical fidelity. Look at the massive budgets on some of the titles this generation, and also look at how much more restricted games have become since the PS2/Xbox/Gamecube era. The majority of the big games this generation have all been playing it safe. We're at the point where Square-Enix is basically a publisher of other people's games now, since it takes far too long for them to make one of their own. I don't argue that a bump in processing power would be nice, but I think it should be going toward improving the gameplay. Making physics feel better, making AI smarter, putting MORE on the screen at a time to make a world feel alive. I think if we kept the current look of graphics, and put the power into the underlying GAME, we could have some really nice things.
 
2013-01-11 06:23:46 AM  

FoxKelfonne:

Except at some point, it become far too costly to produce assets for games with increased graphical fidelity.


This seems true... BUT, there's something that's been bugging me for a while. And since I've been working (mostly) for 20 hours...

The highest budget for a video game is Grand Theft Auto IV, at $100 million. Now, I'd say that GTAIV actually DOES do a lot of what you said (better AI, better physics, more gameplay, etc) but... movie budgets are regularly that high if not much, much higher. According to Wolfram Alpha the highest budget for a movie was $300 million for John Carter, which tanked in the box office. Not that that's the point...

My point is, you can see a movie for roughly $10. GTAIV cost $50. I guess, if you're a family, it's $10/person... whereas GTAIV would be bought and shared by the whole family. So maybe I'm answering my own question here... but I'll ask anyway:

Couldn't games support higher budgets by reducing the price, and bringing in more customers? Also... games could be shorter. I mean, GTAIV took me months to complete... which meant I didn't play any other games. What if it were split into 5-10 hour episodes and sold for $5 each? In some ways companies are doing this with DLC, but they still charge full price for the original game. If they sold the game cheap, maybe $10 with 1/5 of the story and all the sandbox stuff then sold each additional episode at $5 maybe they could get a lot more adoption and gaming would be able to approach the money Hollywood gets.

Or I need sleep. Either way. ;)


Look at the massive budgets on some of the titles this generation, and also look at how much more restricted games have become since the PS2/Xbox/Gamecube era. The majority of the big games this generation have all been playing it safe. We're at the point where Square-Enix is basically a publisher of other people's games now, since it takes far too long for them to make one of their own.


Not to mention they've pretty much completely screwed their best franchise.


I don't argue that a bump in processing power would be nice, but I think it should be going toward improving the gameplay.


Graphics are easier, though. How do you improve gameplay in an FPS anyway? You point at things and shoot. Sandbox games are pretty much where it's at... so yeah, all the things you mention would improve those a lot. Other than that what we really need are new ideas for gameplay. I'm tired of platformers and FPS, and JRPGs for that matter. Western RPGs are hit or miss, and pretty much need to be sandboxy without looking like they copy The Elder Scrolls.

I think what we really need is new kinds of gameplay...

And for that matter, why is Legend of Zelda the only proper action-adventure game series out there? I can't think of anything else that gives you that perfect mix of fun combat, exploration, puzzle solving and intermittent new toys except maybe Metroid. And Metroid games are even more rare than Zelda games! :(
 
2013-01-11 09:16:29 AM  

Telos:
This seems true... BUT, there's something that's been bugging me for a while. And since I've been working (mostly) for 20 hours...

The highest budget for a video game is Grand Theft Auto IV, at $100 million. Now, I'd say that GTAIV actually DOES do a lot of what you said (better AI, better physics, more gameplay, etc) but... movie budgets are regularly that high if not much, much higher. According to Wolfram Alpha the highest budget for a movie was $300 million for John Carter, which tanked in the box office. Not that that's the point...

My point is, you can see a movie for roughly $10. GTAIV cost $50. I guess, if you're a family, it's $10/person... whereas GTAIV would be bought and shared by the whole family. So maybe I'm answering my own question here... but I'll ask anyway:

Couldn't games support higher budgets by reducing the price, and bringing in more customers? Also... games could be shorter. I mean, GTAIV took me months to complete... which meant I didn't play any other games. What if it were split into 5-10 hour episodes and sold for $5 each? In some ways companies are doing this with DLC, but they still charge full price for the original game. If they sold the game cheap, maybe $10 with 1/5 of the story and all the sandbox stuff then sold each additional episode at $5 maybe they could get a lot more adoption and gaming would be able to approach the money Hollywood gets.

Or I need sleep. Either way. ;)


I suppose the problem with that model is that movies, unlike games, do not require a significant investment on the part of the viewers before deciding to go see a movie. In order to play a game, you need to have first plunked down a decent chunk of change for your console of choice / a PC with specs high enough to run the game. If you want to see the latest movie, you just sort of... drive to the theater. This means that the potential audience for games is much smaller than the one for movies.

Furthermore, you have places like Gamestop pushing used copies of games, sometimes less than a week after release, whereas the movie industry doesn't have to deal with a secondhand market until the film is released on DVD/BluRay. I'm not hating on the used game market, I love it for the fact that I can find awesome games that I missed years back, but it does contribute somewhat to the problem.

The other issue is that when a game DOES release for a price lower than the usual $60, many people automatically shrug it off as a useless budget title. Platinum Games just released Anarchy Reigns this week for $30. I'll be willing to bet that it completely tanks, regardless of good reviews and whatnot.


I think what we really need is new kinds of gameplay...

And for that matter, why is Legend of Zelda the only proper action-adventure game series out there? I can't think of anything else that gives you that perfect mix of fun combat, exploration, puzzle solving and intermittent new toys except maybe Metroid. And Metroid games are even more rare than Zelda games! :(


Have you played the Darksiders series? I haven't played the second one yet, but the first was like Zelda had a love child with God of War, sprinkled with a dash of Portal, and starring Arthas Menethil. Dungeons, puzzles, huge boss battles. Even a boomerang! It was good times. I hear the second is supposed to be even better. Sad that we'll probably never see a third, with THQ in bankruptcy and whatnot.
 
2013-01-11 12:11:20 PM  

Telos: I think what we really need is new kinds of gameplay...


This is a constant, but when it costs millions to create a game it has to sell millions worth of copies, which makes game companies conservative and reluctant to try new things (the same goes for movies). The end result is we keep getting tried and true formulaic games. There are exceptions, but they are rare.
 
2013-01-11 12:31:16 PM  

red5ish: Telos: I think what we really need is new kinds of gameplay...

This is a constant, but when it costs millions to create a game it has to sell millions worth of copies, which makes game companies conservative and reluctant to try new things (the same goes for movies). The end result is we keep getting tried and true formulaic games. There are exceptions, but they are rare.


there are only so many perspectives that can possibly exist. first person, third person, some cinematic perspectives, side view, bird's eye, etc.
 
2013-01-11 04:56:41 PM  

FoxKelfonne: Have you played the Darksiders series? I haven't played the second one yet, but the first was like Zelda had a love child with God of War, sprinkled with a dash of Portal, and starring Arthas Menethil. Dungeons, puzzles, huge boss battles. Even a boomerang! It was good times. I hear the second is supposed to be even better. Sad that we'll probably never see a third, with THQ in bankruptcy and whatnot.


I haven't played the first one, and only about 10 hours into the second one, but I love it. I just wish I had more time in the day to play it.
 
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