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(CBS Chicago)   Indiana Bill would require teaching cursive writing. Finally, someone will be able to read the Constitution   (chicago.cbslocal.com) divider line 40
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1919 clicks; posted to Main » on 10 Jan 2013 at 3:38 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2013-01-09 09:41:41 PM
5 votes:
It's still a useful skill, cognitively. Teaches fine motor skills. Enhances the ability to read. Will be handy for reading handwritten documents (yes, like the Constitution). And electronic means and devices aren't always available or appropriate. Cursive handwriting is still of great utility. Good for Indiana.
2013-01-09 09:14:33 PM
5 votes:
I learned cursive in grade school and haven't used it for anything except a signature in years. What's the point?
2013-01-10 04:49:47 AM
3 votes:

NowhereMon: BarkingUnicorn: Do schools still teach typing,  or are kids assumed to pick that up on their own?

Typing will be just as obsolete as cursive in a few short years...


just how did you create your comment? Can you imagine working in a cubicle farm where everybody is using voice command. I defy you to write java code with dragon. (Any technology for this?)
2013-01-10 04:24:02 AM
3 votes:
Pretty much everyone who learned cursive in grade school unlearned it by high school, and then relearned their own method in college. Virtually nobody writes "cursive" except schoolteachers--and I guarantee if you bother looking, you can tell a teacher's writing instantly because theirs is the ONLY handwriting that is always legible.

And it's about the same for typing. Touch-typing should be taught in school, imo, but it's always been an elective; but eventually everyone who has to handle a keyboard figures out SOME system of their own that allows them to use a keyboard without looking at it. It may not be the one taught in school, but everyone can do it. That's why the required typing speed for  clerical jobs is a measly 45 wpm. Anyone who knows touch-typing can always do at least 60--but anyone who uses a keyboard daily can manage 45 if they're any better than hunt&pecking.

So if you go on to college, you WILL learn to write some kind of cursive--or you will never be able to take notes. Period.
2013-01-10 04:17:14 AM
3 votes:

ArkAngel: I learned cursive in grade school and haven't used it for anything except a signature in years. What's the point?


You never know when every ball point and felt tip pen in the whole world might disappear, and you'll be forced to use a fountain pen.

If that ever happens, you'll be awfully glad that you learned a form of writing where you almost never remove the pen tip from the paper. Otherwise, you'd leave little splashes of ink everywhere.

// yes, that really is the only reason cursive exists.
// no, it is not faster to write in cursive
2013-01-09 09:46:05 PM
3 votes:

nekom: They don't already?  Has that much changed, they don't teach cursive script in school these days?  This is news to me, and I was born in 1980.

/get.... off my lawn?


I was born only a few years before you, and it was taught to me. Thing is, I can't think of a single time I've used it in 15-20 years. Unless you count my signature - but even that's just a squiggly line more than actual cursive. For that matter, I think the only time I even write with a pen is to sign a receipt or draw dicks on a passed out friend's forehead. Even my ransom notes aren't hand-written anymore.

Requiring cursive to be taught seems like a waste of time better allocated to actually understanding the language.
2013-01-09 08:21:02 PM
3 votes:
They don't already?  Has that much changed, they don't teach cursive script in school these days?  This is news to me, and I was born in 1980.

/get.... off my lawn?
2013-01-10 07:33:48 AM
2 votes:

The Larch: Kim Jong-il: cursive is generally faster to write.

ha ha ha... no.


Your experience may be different than mine, but I stand by my statement. I am sure that "cursive" writing was probably created to adapt to the writing implements of a few centuries ago...a large number of folks in this thread have made that assertion, and I don't disagree with them.

However, learning cursive technique has helped me to write more quickly. Granted, if you were to look at my college notebooks, I am probably the only one who can read them, but I wrote those notes very quickly, they were only intended to be read by me, and cursive made it possible.

My experience knowing two languages with different writing systems strengthens my argument. I can write Spanish just as quickly as any native Spanish speaker, since English and Spanish use the same writing system. However, I can not write Chinese anywhere near as quickly as a native Chinese since I never learned the "cursive" form of Chinese.

As others have asserted above, a lot of the development of "cursive" English was the fountain pen, since raising the pen tip resulted in ink blotches. One way to avoid ink blotches is to keep the pen moving as much as possible...just like cursive where you don't raise the pen for each letter. I've had blotching problems with ball points in hot, humid environments...cursive not only helps avoid the blotching, but keeps the pen moving more quickly. If you use a pencil, then you are a goddamned Bolshevik.

profplump: Langdon_777: Anyhow, cursive was a lifesaver in college...I, and my classmates who knew cursive, were able to take much more thorough notes, since cursive is generally faster to write.

I doubt this is true in the general case. I believe that you had friends that could write faster than you, and that their script differed from yours, but "cursive" was never developed to be faster than "printing" -- it was developed to reduce the number of lifts of the writing tool at a point in time when that was a major limitation in the technology of writing. But that's not the case with ball point or felt tip pens, which is what most people write with these days. There are speed advantages to be had with both methods, but realistically the fastest method is probably one that tends toward your own custom script, regardless of the basis of that script, because you only need to provide enough distinction for you to re-read what you've written. If you limit the discussion to scripts that can be read by other people the answer will usually be "whichever script I practice most" because that script will be the most distinct and the easiest for the author to create.

And of course that's all irrelevant if you don't limit yourself to a pen -- I (and I suspect many others) can type much faster than can write in any script, even if I'm only writing for my own consumption. The very idea that "penmanship" -- regardless of the script -- is useful in modern society is questionable. Being able to record your own thoughts without a computer is -- maybe -- useful. But I've gone a good decade without writing anything I intend another human to read and I find it hard to believe that today's 10-year-olds will have a significant need for "clear penmanship" in their adult lives.


Actually, that quote was from me, not Langdon_777.

However, you are right in that the fastest writing comes from the development of your own style. However, I think cursive is a stepping stone to that style. It is like with any form of art...you first learn the techniques of the "masters", then once you learn those techniques, you can form your own unique style. Cursive is the traditional way, which you need to learn first, then you develop your own writing style.

Of course, we will write most quickly in the language/style we are most practiced. Cursive helps, though. Just like typing. Some folks type in the "traditional" style with motions that are precisely taught by the manuals...others figure out their own systems, that for the most part are just as good. However, learning the "manual-prescribed" skills provides a great foundation for learning your own system.

By the way, I think cursive may make a comeback with gel-ink pens. Gel-ink pens suck fat hairy monkey balls, especially in the summer...blotches everywhere!
In sum, penmanship is one of those things that often constitutes a first impression. While many folks say "it's what's on the inside that counts", that is all bullshiat. On many job applications, you will probably be required to hand-write some information...good penmanship will make a good impression on the folks who will read your application. Just like a job interview...the way you dress will influence the first impressions the interviewer(s) have. Sure, you might be a fantastically qualified candidate, but in the corporate world, reality is that if you dress like a slob, and/or have lousy penmanship (among other things), you aren't going to get the job, regardless of your qualifications and experience.
2013-01-10 04:24:00 AM
2 votes:

The Larch: yes, that really is the only reason cursive exists


People assume cursive is ancient. In fact, as you note, it was invented to match the writing technology of the day. Apparently we're not allowed to continue to follow that historical model. "I like all the technology invented up until this point, but this is enough -- no more".
2013-01-09 11:19:33 PM
2 votes:
i236.photobucket.com
2013-01-09 11:09:30 PM
2 votes:

revrendjim: ArkAngel: I learned cursive in grade school and haven't used it for anything except a signature in years. What's the point?

Exactly. Everyone knows that anything that does not apply to ArkAngel's life is totally unnecessary.


Whose life is affected by cursive? Every minute teaching cursive is a minute taken away from teaching something useful.
2013-01-09 10:01:12 PM
2 votes:

dickfreckle: OK I severely farked up that last post (am not sober at this moment).

Declaration. But still.


It's okay. This is Fark. You're among drunk friends here.
2013-01-09 09:16:50 PM
2 votes:

nekom: They don't already?  Has that much changed, they don't teach cursive script in school these days?  This is news to me, and I was born in 1980.

/get.... off my lawn?


I was born in 1982, and I had to learn cursive writing in grammar school.  To this day, I get complimented on my penmanship, mostly because everyone else's sucks nowadays since basically everything is done on computers.

/off my lawn too, apparently
2013-01-09 08:26:56 PM
2 votes:
Do schools still teach typing,  or are kids assumed to pick that up on their own?
TWX
2013-01-10 11:15:53 AM
1 votes:
Well, the arguments seem to indicate to me that the feeling is that cursive writing is an art learned in school.

Learning something in school means paying attention in school and applying one's self.

Therefore, as an employer, I should look for applicants that are fluent writing cursive, and as an applicant, I should demonstrate some cursive proficiency.

My handwriting is terrible, but as a lefty with a fossil of a first-grade teacher that wanted to see all students' paper turned the same way, neither my printing nor my cursive is terribly good, I have to put a lot of attention to handwriting to make it legible to even myself, let alone others. When I apply myself my cursive looks better than my printing, but for long documents my printing remains more consistent from start to finish, while my cursive quality drops off.

If our kids end up being left handed, I'm going to teach them to hold the paper correctly for a lefty. Less smearing on the page and on the side of the hand, less muscular cramping when handwriting for an extended period of time, etc.
2013-01-10 09:37:09 AM
1 votes:
They really should move towards the elimination of paper altogether,
2013-01-10 09:29:37 AM
1 votes:

Firststepsadoozie: [i302.photobucket.com image 380x248]
My mother, and an aunt by marriage on my dad's side had penmanship identical to the cursive alphabet above the blackboard.


what happened to these?

i3.squidoocdn.com

for example, the upper case F, Z, and Q.
2013-01-10 09:25:35 AM
1 votes:
I write in cursive. When I see someone printing I tend to think of them as poorly educated and barely literate. I cannot imagine not being able to read cursive at all. People should also be required to type properly before graduating high school. I taught myself to type the correct way with home keys and all.

I see a generation of young people who think so highly of themselves yet they can't type or read cursive. Sad. The public school system is so broken.
2013-01-10 08:22:53 AM
1 votes:

Tat'dGreaser: Typing is a million times more useful than cursive, so yes.


Maybe in the secretarial pool, I still use cursive taking notes when not on the Blackberry, tablet, notebook....

i45.tinypic.com
^seekrit code
2013-01-10 07:21:49 AM
1 votes:
These threads make me picture a bunch of caveman sitting around a fire and the older ones muttering "pfft, in my day we used to eat things raw. I don't know what these kids are thinking"
2013-01-10 06:08:03 AM
1 votes:

Langdon_777: Anyhow, cursive was a lifesaver in college...I, and my classmates who knew cursive, were able to take much more thorough notes, since cursive is generally faster to write.


I doubt this is true in the general case. I believe that you had friends that could write faster than you, and that their script differed from yours, but "cursive" was never developed to be faster than "printing" -- it was developed to reduce the number of lifts of the writing tool at a point in time when that was a major limitation in the technology of writing. But that's not the case with ball point or felt tip pens, which is what most people write with these days. There are speed advantages to be had with both methods, but realistically the fastest method is probably one that tends toward your own custom script, regardless of the basis of that script, because you only need to provide enough distinction for you to re-read what you've written. If you limit the discussion to scripts that can be read by other people the answer will usually be "whichever script I practice most" because that script will be the most distinct and the easiest for the author to create.

And of course that's all irrelevant if you don't limit yourself to a pen -- I (and I suspect many others) can type much faster than can write in any script, even if I'm only writing for my own consumption. The very idea that "penmanship" -- regardless of the script -- is useful in modern society is questionable. Being able to record your own thoughts without a computer is -- maybe -- useful. But I've gone a good decade without writing anything I intend another human to read and I find it hard to believe that today's 10-year-olds will have a significant need for "clear penmanship" in their adult lives.
2013-01-10 04:41:57 AM
1 votes:
I like to write cursive with a Cross Radiance with a medium nib and Noodler's Bulletproof Black ink.

I was required to use cursive in high school. Late 90s. Catholic school.

The problem with requiring cursive are multiple:

1.) Ballpoint pens aren't cursive friendly
2.) Cursive needs to be standardized or else, everyone's interpretation of certain characters, like Z, for instance, can be all over the place.
2013-01-10 04:27:48 AM
1 votes:

FarkOffAndEatShirts: Anything that will make the little darlings less reliant on spell-check can't be all bad, can it?


Is that the language proxy for the argument that I should learn how to calculate square roots by hand, rather than just asking a computer?

The purpose of language is to exchange ideas. Anything that makes that easier or more clear is an improvement; proper spelling is useful insofar as it's important that others know that word I intended. But so long as in the chain between my brain and your brain the meaning is as intact as possible there's literally no benefit to having bits like "correct spelling" contained inside my head as opposed to available at my text input system any more than there's an inherent benefit to knowing how to pluck to turkey to produce writing quills. Yes, it makes us dependent on technology; how long would you last without running water and/or electricity (or a car to get you someplace where they are less important)?
2013-01-10 04:26:01 AM
1 votes:

Gyrfalcon: So if you go on to college, you WILL learn to write some kind of cursive--or you will never be able to take notes. Period.


No one takes notes on paper in college these days.
2013-01-10 04:23:36 AM
1 votes:
Anything that will make the little darlings less reliant on spell-check can't be all bad, can it?

/ there gonna learn it
// over their in Indiana
/// it'll be good for they're brains
2013-01-10 04:21:46 AM
1 votes:

Kim Jong-il: cursive is generally faster to write.


ha ha ha... no.

Now, I don't doubt that you do honestly find that you write faster in the script that you've been practicing with every single day of your whole life since you were eight years old.

But there's nothing special about an italic script that makes it any faster to write in, other than the amount of practice you've had.
2013-01-10 04:21:23 AM
1 votes:

Coco LaFemme: To this day, I get complimented on my penmanship


Why are you writing by hand text that you intend other people to read? Who stole your typewriter? I'm sure if you asked nicely we could get you setup with some sort of text-imprinting device.

/ Haven't written a single thing I intend other to read for at least 10 years
// Born earlier than you
2013-01-10 04:20:55 AM
1 votes:
I have to say, if you are writing something other people will have to read, don't use cursive. It is really, really hard to read someone else's cursive, particularly by people who don't write in cursive themselves.

They can probably decipher it given time, but it takes forever and is really irritating.
2013-01-10 04:14:00 AM
1 votes:
I was born in 1980, and learned cursive. In fact, in the 2nd grade, I got a "C" in penmanship, and my mother kicked my ass...I have what others have called beautiful handwriting now (Mom was kind of a biatch...everything was her way, or, well, everything was her way).

Anyhow, cursive was a lifesaver in college...I, and my classmates who knew cursive, were able to take much more thorough notes, since cursive is generally faster to write.

I learned Chinese in college, and lived in China for five years, and one of the things that always pissed me off was that I was never taught how to write "cursive" Chinese (and I never had time to teach myself). Therefore, it always took me ten times longer than anyone else to write something in Chinese.

Cursive is useful...it helps you write more quickly, which is useful in any schooling or job where you have to take notes in real time.

/friends say I write like a girl.
//their penmanship sucks.
2013-01-10 03:57:35 AM
1 votes:

DMMidwest: It's still a useful skill, cognitively. Teaches fine motor skills. Enhances the ability to read. Will be handy for reading handwritten documents (yes, like the Constitution). And electronic means and devices aren't always available or appropriate. Cursive handwriting is still of great utility. Good for Indiana.


I was taught cursive, and home computers weren't ubiquitous for some time. I wrote plenty of cursive.

STILL hard to read anyone else's.

Nowadays, though, I usually use print when writing by hand. My cursive was never all that legible.
2013-01-10 03:53:44 AM
1 votes:
I used be able to write cursive so beautifully now, 27 years after HS graduation I can't even read it let alone write the damn stuff.
2013-01-10 03:45:54 AM
1 votes:
I'd like a word with this Indiana Bill, wherever he is.
2013-01-10 12:39:06 AM
1 votes:
Sometimes I really love Fark.
2013-01-09 11:20:43 PM
1 votes:
Indiana Bill hated Mexicans. And he was half-Mexican.

And he hated irony.
2013-01-09 11:18:47 PM
1 votes:
fark that shiat.
2013-01-09 10:25:52 PM
1 votes:

R.A.Danny: I can barely print after using a computer for everything for so long.


and i can barely manage that. jopiw3nhj 3wn
2013-01-09 10:15:42 PM
1 votes:
I can barely print after using a computer for everything for so long.
2013-01-09 09:51:10 PM
1 votes:

DMMidwest: It's still a useful skill, cognitively. Teaches fine motor skills. Enhances the ability to read. Will be handy for reading handwritten documents (yes, like the Constitution). And electronic means and devices aren't always available or appropriate. Cursive handwriting is still of great utility. Good for Indiana.


Fair enough, but does anyone actually read the original handwriting of the Constitution, other than to marvel at what a badass John Hancock was? Even at my age every time I've read it it was in print (textbook, website, whatever).

I have nothing against cursive; just not sure a bill enforcing it makes any sense. There are also plenty f other ways to refine motor skills.
2013-01-09 09:37:21 PM
1 votes:

ArkAngel: I learned cursive in grade school and haven't used it for anything except a signature in years. What's the point?


This. Maybe they can teach buggy whip manufacturing next. Plus, we'll have a secret code against all those farking kids.
2013-01-09 08:23:31 PM
1 votes:
Indiana Bill doesn't know jackshiat about this topic.  Wake me when Michigan Steve or Wisconsin Tom weigh in on the issue.
 
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