If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(CBS Chicago)   Indiana Bill would require teaching cursive writing. Finally, someone will be able to read the Constitution   (chicago.cbslocal.com) divider line 138
    More: Spiffy  
•       •       •

1920 clicks; posted to Main » on 10 Jan 2013 at 3:38 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



138 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

Archived thread

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | » | Last | Show all
 
2013-01-10 08:43:37 AM  

Gyrfalcon: Pretty much everyone who learned cursive in grade school unlearned it by high school, and then relearned their own method in college. Virtually nobody writes "cursive" except schoolteachers--and I guarantee if you bother looking, you can tell a teacher's writing instantly because theirs is the ONLY handwriting that is always legible.


I never unlearned it. My college notes were a mix of print and cursive in my own form of shorthand. No one can read my notes but me unless I'm writing them with the intent of being readable by others. I'm 27 and still able to write perfectly fine in cursive. And for that matter by ex would write exclusively in cursive.

Cursive in good. Just because we have digital helpers and ways today doesn't mean that we shouldn't learn how to do things manually. Technology isn't always going to be available exactly when you want it. At my work it's pretty common for my to scrawl out equations and conversions by hand during a calibration or setup. But when I want to expedite the process I keep a calculator on my wrist.

Cursive teaches motor control and helps us have a better grasp on our own language. Whenever I see someone say that we don't have a reason to learn how to write or spell because we have computers I can't help but label them as lazy farks. Not everyone sits in front of their computer all day and uses it exclusively to communicate to others.

If you have a short note to leave for someone who isn't in an office setting which do you think is more common? Writing a quick note on a piece of paper/sticky note and leaving it for them or going to your computer, typing the note, printing it out, and them leaving it for them?

Not everyone lives in an office setting. And personally, I think that we should know how to do as much as we can without external aid. Throughout my career, at different jobs, people have used me as a human calculator and spell check.

Gyrfalcon: And it's about the same for typing. Touch-typing should be taught in school, imo, but it's always been an elective; but eventually everyone who has to handle a keyboard figures out SOME system of their own that allows them to use a keyboard without looking at it. It may not be the one taught in school, but everyone can do it. That's why the required typing speed for  clerical jobs is a measly 45 wpm. Anyone who knows touch-typing can always do at least 60--but anyone who uses a keyboard daily can manage 45 if they're any better than hunt&pecking.


I think that you seriously over estimate peoples' ability to type. From my personal experience the average hunt'n'peck-er, even ones who are required to use their computer at work on a daily basis, can barely reach 15 wpm. From what I've seen, people who use their computer daily who are a step above hunt'n'peck (but still stare at their hands) can maybe squeak out 25 wpm.

Not everyone (who use a computer daily or not) is in an office setting. There's an entire world out there of people who are too mobile, hectic, in restricted environments, or low tech to have constant access to a computer. For some people (like tradesmen for example) most of their non verbal communication is hand written.

But, again, just because we have machines that can do some things for us doesn't mean that we should abandon trying to do things manually.
 
2013-01-10 08:47:22 AM  
Ah, another useless bill from the party of "small government"
 
2013-01-10 08:48:06 AM  
That's Fark, always promoting the personal touch. Now, someone make a "personal touch" joke.
 
2013-01-10 08:53:52 AM  
Time to open a calligraphy and scroll business in Indiana.
 
2013-01-10 08:58:42 AM  
We've got big trouble...RIGHT HERE IN RIVER CITY
 
2013-01-10 09:11:40 AM  

swahnhennessy: Gyrfalcon: So if you go on to college, you WILL learn to write some kind of cursive--or you will never be able to take notes. Period.

No one takes notes on paper in college these days.


Except that 40 year old biatch in the front row who farks the curve up every time. Fark why is that biatch even in this class, shouldn't there be like an age limit on college?
 
2013-01-10 09:24:29 AM  
Not only did I learn cursive, I had to re-learn it because the school switched to what was then the brand-new D'Nealian method after my grade level had already learned the old Palmer Method, and they forced everyone to change! Then I moved cross-country and that school had not gone D'Nealian but by then I was in upper grades and they didn't try to re-educate me again.
 
2013-01-10 09:25:35 AM  
I write in cursive. When I see someone printing I tend to think of them as poorly educated and barely literate. I cannot imagine not being able to read cursive at all. People should also be required to type properly before graduating high school. I taught myself to type the correct way with home keys and all.

I see a generation of young people who think so highly of themselves yet they can't type or read cursive. Sad. The public school system is so broken.
 
2013-01-10 09:26:16 AM  
bricktopsports.files.wordpress.com

Rirruto?
 
2013-01-10 09:29:37 AM  

Firststepsadoozie: [i302.photobucket.com image 380x248]
My mother, and an aunt by marriage on my dad's side had penmanship identical to the cursive alphabet above the blackboard.


what happened to these?

i3.squidoocdn.com

for example, the upper case F, Z, and Q.
 
2013-01-10 09:37:09 AM  
They really should move towards the elimination of paper altogether,
 
2013-01-10 09:51:51 AM  

Mija: I write in cursive. When I see someone printing I tend to think of them as poorly educated and barely literate. I cannot imagine not being able to read cursive at all. People should also be required to type properly before graduating high school. I taught myself to type the correct way with home keys and all.

I see a generation of young people who think so highly of themselves yet they can't type or read cursive. Sad. The public school system is so broken.


I was going to type 0/10, but then I realized I think you may be serious, so like... 8/10.
 
2013-01-10 09:53:22 AM  

SlothB77: Firststepsadoozie: [i302.photobucket.com image 380x248]
My mother, and an aunt by marriage on my dad's side had penmanship identical to the cursive alphabet above the blackboard.

what happened to these?

[i3.squidoocdn.com image 428x600]

for example, the upper case F, Z, and Q.


Whatever happened to them, what you put there is exactly what I was taught back in ole 2nd grade or whenever it was. In the rare event I write cursive for people to read, they think my capital Qs are 2s.

/2uestion!
 
2013-01-10 09:54:34 AM  

The Larch: ArkAngel: I learned cursive in grade school and haven't used it for anything except a signature in years. What's the point?

You never know when every ball point and felt tip pen in the whole world might disappear, and you'll be forced to use a fountain pen.

If that ever happens, you'll be awfully glad that you learned a form of writing where you almost never remove the pen tip from the paper. Otherwise, you'd leave little splashes of ink everywhere.

// yes, that really is the only reason cursive exists.
// no, it is not faster to write in cursive


Fountain pens do not work that way! I use one every day and I write in print perfectly well with no ink blotches
 
2013-01-10 09:56:58 AM  

Kim Jong-il: The Larch: Kim Jong-il: cursive is generally faster to write.

ha ha ha... no.

Your experience may be different than mine, but I stand by my statement. I am sure that "cursive" writing was probably created to adapt to the writing implements of a few centuries ago...a large number of folks in this thread have made that assertion, and I don't disagree with them.

However, learning cursive technique has helped me to write more quickly. Granted, if you were to look at my college notebooks, I am probably the only one who can read them, but I wrote those notes very quickly, they were only intended to be read by me, and cursive made it possible.

My experience knowing two languages with different writing systems strengthens my argument. I can write Spanish just as quickly as any native Spanish speaker, since English and Spanish use the same writing system. However, I can not write Chinese anywhere near as quickly as a native Chinese since I never learned the "cursive" form of Chinese.

As others have asserted above, a lot of the development of "cursive" English was the fountain pen, since raising the pen tip resulted in ink blotches. One way to avoid ink blotches is to keep the pen moving as much as possible...just like cursive where you don't raise the pen for each letter. I've had blotching problems with ball points in hot, humid environments...cursive not only helps avoid the blotching, but keeps the pen moving more quickly. If you use a pencil, then you are a goddamned Bolshevik.

profplump: Langdon_777: Anyhow, cursive was a lifesaver in college...I, and my classmates who knew cursive, were able to take much more thorough notes, since cursive is generally faster to write.

I doubt this is true in the general case. I believe that you had friends that could write faster than you, and that their script differed from yours, but "cursive" was never developed to be faster than "printing" -- it was developed to reduce the number of lifts of the writing tool at a poin ...


I don't quite understand. You say that your problem is that you are unable to take notes in Chinese quickly. I can't speak to Chinese, but with regard to Japanese, since I will be the only one reading it, any number of ligatures and omissions are fine, so long as the basic shape of the character is preserved.

There certainly are orthodox ways of writing Chinese (or Japanese) in cursive, but if you can write well enough to take notes, even your own personal shorthand should probably still be legible to others.
 
2013-01-10 10:14:49 AM  
Cursive writing is a dying art for one very good reason; it is no longer needed. I don't need to know how to write cursive any more than I need to know how to chop firewood. One hundred years ago it was different, but today...

I had an asshole college prof who offered the following staggeringly illogical argument for requiring all homework and essays to be written cursively (note that this was an Ancient Literature class):

1. Cursive writing is faster than print writing. (Maybe, maybe not).
2. If you write faster, you will write more. (No, you write what you need to write.)
3. If you write more, you will read more. (Again, no, you read what you need and want).
4. If you read more, you will be smarter. (OK, generally true in most cases. That one is granted).
5. As a teacher his mission is to make students smarter. (OK, two in a row good).
ERGO: Making students write cursive makes them write more, write faster, read more and end up smarter. (Um. No. 2/5 premises are not supported).

So I write a huge essay and got a bad grade on it because I could not remember how to make a cursive Z. So I used a print Z in the word "Zeus". He circled it in red in EVERY SINGLE INSTANCE and then wrote: "Who is this? I can't read this. It is not in cursive."

Probably the most dickwad professor I ever had.
 
2013-01-10 10:15:18 AM  
Either teach cursive or get rid of personalized birthday cakes and those ubiquitous "today's special" chalkboards .
 
2013-01-10 10:16:56 AM  
It will all be voice interface is what I meant.
 
2013-01-10 10:20:57 AM  
My grandmother still scripts notes to me. Her handwriting it atrocious. I have to give it to my wife to parse it. I don't even bother with script anymore, though I do use cursive letters when writing out particularly long or complicated formulas.

/it's useful in some respects.
//just... not for writing.
 
2013-01-10 10:26:03 AM  

Gyrfalcon: So if you go on to college, you WILL learn to write some kind of cursive--or you will never be able to take notes. Period.


Gotta disagree. I took extremely thorough notes all through college without ever using cursive. Reasonably legible, too.

/Disclaimer: went to college in the south. Fast-talking northern professors could well be different
 
2013-01-10 10:53:13 AM  

FitzShivering: Course, I can type about 100x faster than I write, as in order to write something legibly (including in print), I have to write so slowly I can't see straight.


You write one word per minute?
 
2013-01-10 11:02:31 AM  

Donnchadha: There's a reason why he's not as well known as his cousin Jones.


This post belongs in a museum!
 
TWX
2013-01-10 11:15:53 AM  
Well, the arguments seem to indicate to me that the feeling is that cursive writing is an art learned in school.

Learning something in school means paying attention in school and applying one's self.

Therefore, as an employer, I should look for applicants that are fluent writing cursive, and as an applicant, I should demonstrate some cursive proficiency.

My handwriting is terrible, but as a lefty with a fossil of a first-grade teacher that wanted to see all students' paper turned the same way, neither my printing nor my cursive is terribly good, I have to put a lot of attention to handwriting to make it legible to even myself, let alone others. When I apply myself my cursive looks better than my printing, but for long documents my printing remains more consistent from start to finish, while my cursive quality drops off.

If our kids end up being left handed, I'm going to teach them to hold the paper correctly for a lefty. Less smearing on the page and on the side of the hand, less muscular cramping when handwriting for an extended period of time, etc.
 
2013-01-10 11:18:49 AM  

Bith Set Me Up: Donnchadha: There's a reason why he's not as well known as his cousin Jones.

This post belongs in a museum!


Screw Jones Bill! He's a mofo and knows it.
 
2013-01-10 12:13:04 PM  

Madame Ovary: ArkAngel: I learned cursive in grade school and haven't used it for anything except a signature in years. What's the point?

Really! Hate cursive only because my son in 3rd grade couldn't print, let alone learn cursive. I pulled him out to homeschool. Still can't write cursive and is handicapped by not being able to read it but the only things we find in cursive are grandma's letters.

He is still a slow writer but the middle school allows him to use dictation software and type his assignments.

/BOO cursive


No snark or disrespect to your son intended, but unless he has some kind of learning disability that makes "able to read and write" an unrealistic goal, I cannot fathom why you think this is OK...
 
2013-01-10 12:13:09 PM  
Louisiana Clem will still accept an X as your signature. He's cool like that.
 
2013-01-10 12:56:44 PM  

TWX: My handwriting is terrible


So what you are saying is that you should fire yourself for being an poor employee.
 
TWX
2013-01-10 01:05:23 PM  

wingnut396: TWX: My handwriting is terrible

So what you are saying is that you should fire yourself for being an poor employee.


When I take the time to put forth effort, my handwriting is decent enough, which is how I write at work and how I've written on applications, as opposed to the chicken scratching I produce when it's unimportant. I'm also in a line of work where handwritten work is not necessary terribly often, as most documentation is typed.
 
2013-01-10 01:27:41 PM  

moothemagiccow: I'd like a word with this Indiana Bill, wherever he is.


I don't believe any five Mexican pistoleros can kill Indiana Bill.
 
2013-01-10 01:29:09 PM  

Kim Jong-il: However, you are right in that the fastest writing comes from the development of your own style. However, I think cursive is a stepping stone to that style. It is like with any form of art...you first learn the techniques of the "masters", then once you learn those techniques, you can form your own unique style. Cursive is the traditional way, which you need to learn first, then you develop your own writing style.


Actual cursive writing, at least in the major scripts developed in the late 19th century education system in America, was not designed to be written fast. It was designed to work with the writing instruments available for the day, to produce a single consistent and identical handwriting by everyone, and to constrain children to a certain body posture and set rigorous prescribed movements that the creators believed matched their voodoo education theories.

Writing cursive means writing the letters exactly as given to you in those booklets you worked through as a third grader. It should be easily legible to anyone, and your handwriting should be almost indistinguishable from the handwriting of all of the other people who were in your third grade class. If it is not, then you're not writing in cursive. And, that means that actually writing cursive is a very slow and laborious process for the majority of people, and no amount of practice can ever change that.

But I do agree that if your goal is to quickly fill a page with chicken scratches decipherable only by yourself, then learning to write a tiny amount of cursive as a stepping stone to that task is often useful.
 
2013-01-10 03:29:27 PM  

Swoop1809: The Larch: ArkAngel: I learned cursive in grade school and haven't used it for anything except a signature in years. What's the point?

You never know when every ball point and felt tip pen in the whole world might disappear, and you'll be forced to use a fountain pen.

If that ever happens, you'll be awfully glad that you learned a form of writing where you almost never remove the pen tip from the paper. Otherwise, you'd leave little splashes of ink everywhere.

// yes, that really is the only reason cursive exists.
// no, it is not faster to write in cursive

Fountain pens do not work that way! I use one every day and I write in print perfectly well with no ink blotches


he means quills
 
2013-01-10 04:32:20 PM  

trappedspirit: FitzShivering: Course, I can type about 100x faster than I write, as in order to write something legibly (including in print), I have to write so slowly I can't see straight.

You write one word per minute?


If I'm writing legibly in cursive, it's pretty damned close. I find it nearly impossible to do. I have to go really, really, really slowly, because it isn't how I really write (even in cursive). Writing in cursive enough to fill up a page takes me a very, very long time.

I'd say, realistically, for legible writing, I probably do about 6 to 10 words per minute in cursive max. It used to be a lot faster, but it's just something that I almost physically can't do anymore.

Now, my cursive mixed shorthand? That, probably close to typing speed, but no one else can read it.
 
2013-01-10 05:35:30 PM  
Cursive loses something when it's not written in its original Klingon.
 
2013-01-10 06:16:00 PM  

Swoop1809: If that ever happens, you'll be awfully glad that you learned a form of writing where you almost never remove the pen tip from the paper. Otherwise, you'd leave little splashes of ink everywhere.

// yes, that really is the only reason cursive exists.
// no, it is not faster to write in cursive

Fountain pens do not work that way! I use one every day and I write in print perfectly well with no ink blotches


you probably use a modern fountain pen, which has nib so stiff that even pall point pen users won't destroy it. Modern ink also does clog/gum up stiff nibs. Of course, a stiff nib also makes it impossible to do "proper" penmanship.

Please be careful if you every use a calligraphy pen, although modern metallurgy makes them much more forgiving. Please be *VERY* careful if you use an antique pen.
 
2013-01-10 06:30:19 PM  
So are they gonna do a bailout on buggy whip manufacturers while they are at it?
 
2013-01-10 09:15:58 PM  

vartian: ArkAngel: I learned cursive in grade school and haven't used it for anything except a signature in years. What's the point?

This. Maybe they can teach buggy whip manufacturing next. Plus, we'll have a secret code against all those farking kids.


Yeah , It's gonna be awesome .Even better than the pig latin codes that we used against our parents .
 
2013-01-10 09:57:07 PM  

SlothB77: for example, the upper case F, Z, and Q.


They were goddamn idiotic, so we took them out back and shot them.
 
2013-01-11 08:10:18 AM  

Kim Jong-il: On many job applications, you will probably be required to hand-write some information...good penmanship will make a good impression on the folks who will read your application. Just like a job interview...the way you dress will influence the first impressions the interviewer(s) have. Sure, you might be a fantastically qualified candidate, but in the corporate world, reality is that if you dress like a slob, and/or have lousy penmanship (among other things), you aren't going to get the job, regardless of your qualifications and experience..


Yah know I do that almost on purpose - why would I want to work for shallow bosses, they can teach me nothing but bad habits and definitely do not deserve mine (or your) time and effort.

Tis why I turned down merchant banking and only made giggle applications to banks.

Try to work for (with) people who can help make you a better person - and such corporate stooges cannot.

Any of us could die tomorrow (now!) so lets try to be better than yesterday (or at least the same) and seek the excellent leaders to give your time and effort too.
 
Displayed 38 of 138 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | » | Last | Show all

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report