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(CBS Chicago)   Indiana Bill would require teaching cursive writing. Finally, someone will be able to read the Constitution   (chicago.cbslocal.com) divider line 138
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1920 clicks; posted to Main » on 10 Jan 2013 at 3:38 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-10 04:27:48 AM

FarkOffAndEatShirts: Anything that will make the little darlings less reliant on spell-check can't be all bad, can it?


Is that the language proxy for the argument that I should learn how to calculate square roots by hand, rather than just asking a computer?

The purpose of language is to exchange ideas. Anything that makes that easier or more clear is an improvement; proper spelling is useful insofar as it's important that others know that word I intended. But so long as in the chain between my brain and your brain the meaning is as intact as possible there's literally no benefit to having bits like "correct spelling" contained inside my head as opposed to available at my text input system any more than there's an inherent benefit to knowing how to pluck to turkey to produce writing quills. Yes, it makes us dependent on technology; how long would you last without running water and/or electricity (or a car to get you someplace where they are less important)?
 
2013-01-10 04:38:12 AM

The Larch: ArkAngel: I learned cursive in grade school and haven't used it for anything except a signature in years. What's the point?

You never know when every ball point and felt tip pen in the whole world might disappear, and you'll be forced to use a fountain pen.

If that ever happens, you'll be awfully glad that you learned a form of writing where you almost never remove the pen tip from the paper. Otherwise, you'd leave little splashes of ink everywhere.

// yes, that really is the only reason cursive exists.
// no, it is not faster to write in cursive


Amen. Cursive is an archaic writing system. It was never all that legible, and now that the fountain pen is gone, it should go too.
 
2013-01-10 04:41:08 AM

The Larch: ArkAngel: I learned cursive in grade school and haven't used it for anything except a signature in years. What's the point?

You never know when every ball point and felt tip pen in the whole world might disappear, and you'll be forced to use a fountain pen.

If that ever happens, you'll be awfully glad that you learned a form of writing where you almost never remove the pen tip from the paper. Otherwise, you'd leave little splashes of ink everywhere.

// yes, that really is the only reason cursive exists.
// no, it is not faster to write in cursive


It's due to the quill according to wikipedia.
 
2013-01-10 04:41:23 AM
What's this going to do to the neck tattoo?
 
2013-01-10 04:41:57 AM
I like to write cursive with a Cross Radiance with a medium nib and Noodler's Bulletproof Black ink.

I was required to use cursive in high school. Late 90s. Catholic school.

The problem with requiring cursive are multiple:

1.) Ballpoint pens aren't cursive friendly
2.) Cursive needs to be standardized or else, everyone's interpretation of certain characters, like Z, for instance, can be all over the place.
 
2013-01-10 04:49:47 AM

NowhereMon: BarkingUnicorn: Do schools still teach typing,  or are kids assumed to pick that up on their own?

Typing will be just as obsolete as cursive in a few short years...


just how did you create your comment? Can you imagine working in a cubicle farm where everybody is using voice command. I defy you to write java code with dragon. (Any technology for this?)
 
HBK
2013-01-10 05:05:17 AM

GAT_00: I've used cursive once in the last ten years: the GRE has a statement that you have to write in cursive before you take the test.  Took me like 15 minutes because I had to remember how to make everything look somewhat like cursive.  I have no idea why the fark you have to do that when everything else is done on computer, but hey, there is a use for cursive past 5th grade.


If I recall, the LSAT has a similar requirement at the end. Basically a paragraph that must be written in cursive saying that you didn't cheat on the exam.
 
Xoc
2013-01-10 05:14:45 AM
I think everyone needs to be able to read cursive. People should be able to sign their name. Writing cursive is almost obsolete, kind of like shorthand.
 
2013-01-10 05:19:21 AM

profplump: there's literally no benefit to having bits like "correct spelling" contained inside my head as opposed to available at my text input system any more than there's an inherent benefit to knowing how to pluck to turkey to produce writing quills.


Considering the massive amount of words forming the amalgam from other languages which is English, with additional being added almost daily anymore (granted the majority are stupid media terms to sound trendy), an amount of spelling knowledge is important because spell check is only as good as the approximation. English has an array of similarly spelled words, and approximations are based on actual characters rather than phonetic similarity, which I doubt would be easy for most of us to accomplish without change to a wholly phonetic alphabet. Not to say spelling instruction is very worthwhile, just being able to spell is valuable, spell check or not (want to spell better... read and write more).
 
2013-01-10 05:40:16 AM

Gyrfalcon: Pretty much everyone who learned cursive in grade school unlearned it by high school, and then relearned their own method in college. Virtually nobody writes "cursive" except schoolteachers--and I guarantee if you bother looking, you can tell a teacher's writing instantly because theirs is the ONLY handwriting that is always legible.


What about a pharmacist that becomes a teacher?
 
2013-01-10 05:40:51 AM
Doctor! dangit
 
2013-01-10 05:46:46 AM

Vangor: Not to say spelling instruction is very worthwhile, just being able to spell is valuable


Ensuring that the output text of your text recording system represents what you mean is -- I agree -- very important. I just don't see the value in constraining that system to the human brain as opposed to using external tools to accomplish the same goal.
 
2013-01-10 05:48:18 AM

Kim Jong-il: I was born in 1980, and learned cursive. In fact, in the 2nd grade, I got a "C" in penmanship, and my mother kicked my ass...I have what others have called beautiful handwriting now (Mom was kind of a biatch...everything was her way, or, well, everything was her way).

Anyhow, cursive was a lifesaver in college...I, and my classmates who knew cursive, were able to take much more thorough notes, since cursive is generally faster to write.

I learned Chinese in college, and lived in China for five years, and one of the things that always pissed me off was that I was never taught how to write "cursive" Chinese (and I never had time to teach myself). Therefore, it always took me ten times longer than anyone else to write something in Chinese.

Cursive is useful...it helps you write more quickly, which is useful in any schooling or job where you have to take notes in real time.

/friends say I write like a girl.
//their penmanship sucks.


Tis why I regret never learning short hand.
 
2013-01-10 05:52:40 AM

Gyrfalcon: Pretty much everyone who learned cursive in grade school unlearned it by high school, and then relearned their own method in college. Virtually nobody writes "cursive" except schoolteachers--and I guarantee if you bother looking, you can tell a teacher's writing instantly because theirs is the ONLY handwriting that is always legible.

And it's about the same for typing. Touch-typing should be taught in school, imo, but it's always been an elective; but eventually everyone who has to handle a keyboard figures out SOME system of their own that allows them to use a keyboard without looking at it. It may not be the one taught in school, but everyone can do it. That's why the required typing speed for  clerical jobs is a measly 45 wpm. Anyone who knows touch-typing can always do at least 60--but anyone who uses a keyboard daily can manage 45 if they're any better than hunt&pecking.

So if you go on to college, you WILL learn to write some kind of cursive--or you will never be able to take notes. Period.


Alas I avoided typing in high school, but I made up for it in my 30s by finally playing a text-based mud (there was no more pressing issues in my life and I thought it was time to play a multi-player game) - nothing improves typing speed like the threat of death ;-)
 
2013-01-10 05:54:39 AM
Um, well, I know hell and damn and bit...
 
2013-01-10 05:54:57 AM
media.parabebes.com
 
2013-01-10 05:55:42 AM

nekom: They don't already?  Has that much changed, they don't teach cursive script in school these days?  This is news to me, and I was born in 1980.

/get.... off my lawn?


It was dropped from the curriculum of Indiana, according to TFA, in 2011. It's been off the curriculum everywhere that's actually reasonably civilized since 2000 or so.

So... yeah, that bit of your education's out of date. Has been since before you got it, in all honesty, but people don't like to let old stuff that technically still works go in education sometimes. Even in the 1980s, anything extensive enough to require that you write it longhand to save time over printing would be faster to put on a typewriter, and they were cheap enough that even poor people had 'em.

If you write a _lot_ and you for some reason don't have a keyboard around, you don't want cursive anyhow, learn a shorthand or make one up. And only do the former if you really need someone else to read your notes at some point, because making one that's intelligible to yourself takes about half an hour tops and can be done on the fly.

//you would not be able to read my notes, but I still can, so good enough.
 
2013-01-10 05:58:02 AM

ArkAngel: I learned cursive in grade school and haven't used it for anything except a signature in years. What's the point?


Writing cursive seems obsolete, but being able to read it comes in handy at times.

And as to the necessity of typing -- I sort of half-joke that it was the best class I took in high school as it's the one skill I learned in those four years that I use every day. Well, other than knowing how sentences form good, that is.
 
2013-01-10 06:04:03 AM

ArkAngel: I learned cursive in grade school and haven't used it for anything except a signature in years. What's the point?


Really! Hate cursive only because my son in 3rd grade couldn't print, let alone learn cursive. I pulled him out to homeschool. Still can't write cursive and is handicapped by not being able to read it but the only things we find in cursive are grandma's letters.

He is still a slow writer but the middle school allows him to use dictation software and type his assignments.

/BOO cursive
 
2013-01-10 06:05:50 AM

swahnhennessy: Gyrfalcon: So if you go on to college, you WILL learn to write some kind of cursive--or you will never be able to take notes. Period.


People take notes about their period.
 
2013-01-10 06:08:03 AM

Langdon_777: Anyhow, cursive was a lifesaver in college...I, and my classmates who knew cursive, were able to take much more thorough notes, since cursive is generally faster to write.


I doubt this is true in the general case. I believe that you had friends that could write faster than you, and that their script differed from yours, but "cursive" was never developed to be faster than "printing" -- it was developed to reduce the number of lifts of the writing tool at a point in time when that was a major limitation in the technology of writing. But that's not the case with ball point or felt tip pens, which is what most people write with these days. There are speed advantages to be had with both methods, but realistically the fastest method is probably one that tends toward your own custom script, regardless of the basis of that script, because you only need to provide enough distinction for you to re-read what you've written. If you limit the discussion to scripts that can be read by other people the answer will usually be "whichever script I practice most" because that script will be the most distinct and the easiest for the author to create.

And of course that's all irrelevant if you don't limit yourself to a pen -- I (and I suspect many others) can type much faster than can write in any script, even if I'm only writing for my own consumption. The very idea that "penmanship" -- regardless of the script -- is useful in modern society is questionable. Being able to record your own thoughts without a computer is -- maybe -- useful. But I've gone a good decade without writing anything I intend another human to read and I find it hard to believe that today's 10-year-olds will have a significant need for "clear penmanship" in their adult lives.
 
2013-01-10 06:15:59 AM
I only write in cursive in Russian, since I can't type in Russian despite having the ugly layover on my keyboard. English, I can't remember the last time I did so, except signing my name.

Oddly, my Russian cursive used to get complimented, whereas my English cursive is nearly unreadable, despite sharing a lot of the same letters.

Course, I can type about 100x faster than I write, as in order to write something legibly (including in print), I have to write so slowly I can't see straight.

I'm not sure what benefit being able to write cursive is anymore. As long as you can write something everyone else can read, I think you're pretty well still protected in the event of all the computers failing. :)
 
2013-01-10 06:19:27 AM

Jim_Callahan:
If you write a _lot_ and you for some reason don't have a keyboard around, you don't want cursive anyhow, learn a shorthand or make one up. And only do the former if you really need someone else to read your notes at some point, because making one that's intelligible to yourself takes about half an hour tops and can be done on the fly.

//you would not be able to read my notes, but I still can, so good enough.


Yup. As far as note taking where I'm really needing to get a lot of information down -- no one is ever going to be able to read it without spending some time. It isn't technically short hand, but it's basically so full of symbols and abbreviations that no one can ever figure it out. But I've been taking notes that way for over twenty years (when no computer is nearby) and it is like a first language to me -- it's the only way I could "write" that would keep up with typing speed (which sustains above 100 wpm). Hell, at a technical conference last year, I made it over a page without ever using a full word -- granted, it was one of those nasty acronym heavy presentations.

/yes, can still read them years later and know exactly what I meant, to any weird soul who might wonder
 
2013-01-10 06:22:10 AM

nekom: They don't already?  Has that much changed, they don't teach cursive script in school these days?  This is news to me, and I was born in 1980.

/get.... off my lawn?


19 farking 80? thanks for making me feel like i'm dead.

on a lighter note, 1980= sky high mortgage rates, terrible unemployment & horrible job market, foreign goods swamped our economy, used cars to be had under $1,000, cheap smokes, many unaware of AIDS banging without rubbers, cheap gas.
 
2013-01-10 06:25:28 AM
Put ampersand back in the alphabet!
 
2013-01-10 06:28:53 AM

TheKinkhead: Amen. Cursive is an archaic writing system. It was never all that legible, and now that the fountain pen is gone, it should go too.


In grad school, I used to regularly have to read handwritten documents from between 50-250 years ago. Now, every time someone goes on a rant about how "good penmanship is disappearing" I stab them with an ice pick. No, there was no golden age of handwriting, it's all freaking impossible to read.
 
2013-01-10 06:36:20 AM

The Beatings Will Continue Until Morale Improves: Put ampersand back in the alphabet!


And per se and.
 
2013-01-10 06:46:06 AM
Is it to late for us to sign Obama up for this course?
 
2013-01-10 06:46:31 AM
i302.photobucket.com
My mother, and an aunt by marriage on my dad's side had penmanship identical to the cursive alphabet above the blackboard.
 
d23 [TotalFark]
2013-01-10 06:48:14 AM
Here in Indiana we have solved all problems, so the Government has time for bullshiat like this.

After the Mike Pence years we'll all need to buy four wheel drives because there won't be any roads left. He's an asshole's asshole.
 
2013-01-10 07:16:30 AM

BarkingUnicorn: Do schools still teach typing,  or are kids assumed to pick that up on their own?


Typing is a million times more useful than cursive, so yes.
 
2013-01-10 07:17:24 AM

MadCat221: NowhereMon: BarkingUnicorn: Do schools still teach typing,  or are kids assumed to pick that up on their own?

Typing will be just as obsolete as cursive in a few short years...

Except it won't, because the only thing touch screens are good for is compactness. I guarantee that a typist can fly across that keyboard far faster than someone on a balky touch screen that thinks it pressed the key right next to it, or won't detect the screen press, or can't detect the screen presses fast enough.

Even on my little slide-out smart phone keyboard, I am far faster typing on it than on the crummy one on the screen.


It will all be voice interface is what I meant.
 
mjg
2013-01-10 07:20:25 AM
www.memoriapress.com
upload.wikimedia.org

I still think these were good for learning how to understand writing/math.

/both were taught at my school
//I'm old
 
2013-01-10 07:21:49 AM
These threads make me picture a bunch of caveman sitting around a fire and the older ones muttering "pfft, in my day we used to eat things raw. I don't know what these kids are thinking"
 
2013-01-10 07:23:42 AM

FitzShivering: I only write in cursive in Russian, since I can't type in Russian despite having the ugly layover on my keyboard. English, I can't remember the last time I did so, except signing my name.

Oddly, my Russian cursive used to get complimented, whereas my English cursive is nearly unreadable, despite sharing a lot of the same letters.

Course, I can type about 100x faster than I write, as in order to write something legibly (including in print), I have to write so slowly I can't see straight.

I'm not sure what benefit being able to write cursive is anymore. As long as you can write something everyone else can read, I think you're pretty well still protected in the event of all the computers failing. :)


Try installing a "phonetic" Russian keyboard from http://winrus.com/kbd_e.htm, and most of the bukvi will be where you'd expect (c on s key, etc.). You'll have to redo your stickies though.
 
2013-01-10 07:25:42 AM

Firststepsadoozie: [i302.photobucket.com image 380x248]
My mother, and an aunt by marriage on my dad's side had penmanship identical to the cursive alphabet above the blackboard.


That capital G is weird but otherwise, nice. I use pen and paper a lot.
 
2013-01-10 07:33:48 AM

The Larch: Kim Jong-il: cursive is generally faster to write.

ha ha ha... no.


Your experience may be different than mine, but I stand by my statement. I am sure that "cursive" writing was probably created to adapt to the writing implements of a few centuries ago...a large number of folks in this thread have made that assertion, and I don't disagree with them.

However, learning cursive technique has helped me to write more quickly. Granted, if you were to look at my college notebooks, I am probably the only one who can read them, but I wrote those notes very quickly, they were only intended to be read by me, and cursive made it possible.

My experience knowing two languages with different writing systems strengthens my argument. I can write Spanish just as quickly as any native Spanish speaker, since English and Spanish use the same writing system. However, I can not write Chinese anywhere near as quickly as a native Chinese since I never learned the "cursive" form of Chinese.

As others have asserted above, a lot of the development of "cursive" English was the fountain pen, since raising the pen tip resulted in ink blotches. One way to avoid ink blotches is to keep the pen moving as much as possible...just like cursive where you don't raise the pen for each letter. I've had blotching problems with ball points in hot, humid environments...cursive not only helps avoid the blotching, but keeps the pen moving more quickly. If you use a pencil, then you are a goddamned Bolshevik.

profplump: Langdon_777: Anyhow, cursive was a lifesaver in college...I, and my classmates who knew cursive, were able to take much more thorough notes, since cursive is generally faster to write.

I doubt this is true in the general case. I believe that you had friends that could write faster than you, and that their script differed from yours, but "cursive" was never developed to be faster than "printing" -- it was developed to reduce the number of lifts of the writing tool at a point in time when that was a major limitation in the technology of writing. But that's not the case with ball point or felt tip pens, which is what most people write with these days. There are speed advantages to be had with both methods, but realistically the fastest method is probably one that tends toward your own custom script, regardless of the basis of that script, because you only need to provide enough distinction for you to re-read what you've written. If you limit the discussion to scripts that can be read by other people the answer will usually be "whichever script I practice most" because that script will be the most distinct and the easiest for the author to create.

And of course that's all irrelevant if you don't limit yourself to a pen -- I (and I suspect many others) can type much faster than can write in any script, even if I'm only writing for my own consumption. The very idea that "penmanship" -- regardless of the script -- is useful in modern society is questionable. Being able to record your own thoughts without a computer is -- maybe -- useful. But I've gone a good decade without writing anything I intend another human to read and I find it hard to believe that today's 10-year-olds will have a significant need for "clear penmanship" in their adult lives.


Actually, that quote was from me, not Langdon_777.

However, you are right in that the fastest writing comes from the development of your own style. However, I think cursive is a stepping stone to that style. It is like with any form of art...you first learn the techniques of the "masters", then once you learn those techniques, you can form your own unique style. Cursive is the traditional way, which you need to learn first, then you develop your own writing style.

Of course, we will write most quickly in the language/style we are most practiced. Cursive helps, though. Just like typing. Some folks type in the "traditional" style with motions that are precisely taught by the manuals...others figure out their own systems, that for the most part are just as good. However, learning the "manual-prescribed" skills provides a great foundation for learning your own system.

By the way, I think cursive may make a comeback with gel-ink pens. Gel-ink pens suck fat hairy monkey balls, especially in the summer...blotches everywhere!
In sum, penmanship is one of those things that often constitutes a first impression. While many folks say "it's what's on the inside that counts", that is all bullshiat. On many job applications, you will probably be required to hand-write some information...good penmanship will make a good impression on the folks who will read your application. Just like a job interview...the way you dress will influence the first impressions the interviewer(s) have. Sure, you might be a fantastically qualified candidate, but in the corporate world, reality is that if you dress like a slob, and/or have lousy penmanship (among other things), you aren't going to get the job, regardless of your qualifications and experience.
 
2013-01-10 07:37:46 AM
Our new treasury secretary.

pixel.nymag.com
 
2013-01-10 07:58:19 AM

profplump: Langdon_777: Anyhow, cursive was a lifesaver in college...I, and my classmates who knew cursive, were able to take much more thorough notes, since cursive is generally faster to write.

>>> "cursive" was never developed to be faster than "printing" -- it was developed to reduce the number of lifts of the writing tool at a point in time when that was a major limitation in the technology of writing. But that's not the case with ball point or felt tip pens, which is what most people write with these days. There are speed advantages to be had with both methods, but realistically the fastest method is probably one that tends toward your own custom script.



Interesting... I hadn't considered *why* cursive exists. The medium. That makes sense. It also helps explain why younger people simply don't see the point.
 
2013-01-10 08:02:09 AM

Kim Jong-il: I was born in 1980, and learned cursive. In fact, in the 2nd grade, I got a "C" in penmanship, and my mother kicked my ass...I have what others have called beautiful handwriting now (Mom was kind of a biatch...everything was her way, or, well, everything was her way).

Anyhow, cursive was a lifesaver in college...I, and my classmates who knew cursive, were able to take much more thorough notes, since cursive is generally faster to write.

I learned Chinese in college, and lived in China for five years, and one of the things that always pissed me off was that I was never taught how to write "cursive" Chinese (and I never had time to teach myself). Therefore, it always took me ten times longer than anyone else to write something in Chinese.

Cursive is useful...it helps you write more quickly, which is useful in any schooling or job where you have to take notes in real time.

/friends say I write like a girl.
//their penmanship sucks.


Cursive may be faster to some than printing, but I take notes on my smartphone with Evernote. It's a lot faster than cursive or writing for me, and I can transfer the notes to other programs easily.

Yeah, I always tell the professor at the beginning of the semester that I'm taking notes, not texting. ;)
 
2013-01-10 08:02:56 AM
judging by my girlfriend's reactions, cursive is better than block printing. I just stick to the lowercase letters.
 
2013-01-10 08:17:31 AM

GAT_00: I've used cursive once in the last ten years: the GRE has a statement that you have to write in cursive before you take the test.  Took me like 15 minutes because I had to remember how to make everything look somewhat like cursive.  I have no idea why the fark you have to do that when everything else is done on computer, but hey, there is a use for cursive past 5th grade.


Computers are great until the sun flares bork 80% of them someday.
 
2013-01-10 08:21:05 AM

Kim Jong-il: I learned Chinese in college, and lived in China for five years, and one of the things that always pissed me off was that I was never taught how to write "cursive" Chinese (and I never had time to teach myself). Therefore, it always took me ten times longer than anyone else to write something in Chinese.

Cursive is useful...it helps you write more quickly, which is useful in any schooling or job where you have to take notes in real time.

/friends say I write like a girl.
//their penmanship sucks.


There's a cursive in Chinese? Hot damn, I didn't know that was possible.
 
2013-01-10 08:22:53 AM

Tat'dGreaser: Typing is a million times more useful than cursive, so yes.


Maybe in the secretarial pool, I still use cursive taking notes when not on the Blackberry, tablet, notebook....

i45.tinypic.com
^seekrit code
 
2013-01-10 08:25:46 AM

Dadoody: I like to write cursive with a Cross Radiance with a medium nib and Noodler's Bulletproof Black ink.

I was required to use cursive in high school. Late 90s. Catholic school.

The problem with requiring cursive are multiple:

1.) Ballpoint pens aren't cursive friendly
2.) Cursive needs to be standardized or else, everyone's interpretation of certain characters, like Z, for instance, can be all over the place.


1) They are if you aren't using a super fine tip on rough recycled art paper.
2) It is but there are some "options" that mostly people use as adults for flair.
 
2013-01-10 08:29:45 AM

d23: Here in Indiana we have solved all problems, so the Government has time for bullshiat like this.

After the Mike Pence years we'll all need to buy four wheel drives because there won't be any roads left. He's an asshole's asshole.


THIS! A million times.
 
d23 [TotalFark]
2013-01-10 08:34:15 AM

neenerist: Tat'dGreaser: Typing is a million times more useful than cursive, so yes.

Maybe in the secretarial pool, I still use cursive taking notes when not on the Blackberry, tablet, notebook....

[i45.tinypic.com image 535x164]
^seekrit code


and it only took you 20 minutes to write I bet.. :P
 
2013-01-10 08:35:22 AM

neenerist: Tat'dGreaser: Typing is a million times more useful than cursive, so yes.

Maybe in the secretarial pool, I still use cursive taking notes when not on the Blackberry, tablet, notebook....

[i45.tinypic.com image 535x164]
^seekrit code


Just the secretarial pool? That's just silly talk.
 
2013-01-10 08:39:08 AM
chicago ted was here
 
2013-01-10 08:41:11 AM

Kim Jong-il: Blah, blah, blah...

Sure, you might be a fantastically qualified candidate, but in the corporate world, reality is that if you dress like a slob, and/or have lousy penmanship (among other things), you aren't going to get the job, regardless of your qualifications and experience.


I never could get cursive to be legible. I can print quite quickly for my own use. When I fill out forms, well, I had about 8 years of drafting classes from middle school to my first few years of college. You want legible, standardized characters? Hand letter drafting. You think your cursive teacher was biatchy about penmanship? Try drafting teachers and professors that actually measured your letters down to the millimeter.

I say instead of teaching kids cursive, just teach them how to take farking notes. So many of my wife's students try to write out the entire text of what she posts on a screen or verbatim of what she says during a lecture. That is farking insane. She does try to teach them better methods of note taking, but they are mostly seniors in HS. They should have developed a good bit of that already.
 
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