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(Fairbanks Daily Newsminer)   The reality of how the modern US will treat your well-armed militia and any fantasies of an uprising   (newsminer.com) divider line 424
    More: Obvious, Fairbanks, foreign exchange reserves, magic, Alaska State Troopers, rebellions, classical conditions, treating, psychological tests  
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25800 clicks; posted to Main » on 09 Jan 2013 at 11:03 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-09 11:34:28 AM  

doczoidberg: All of this gun shiat is really getting on my nerves.

How about we skip the part where we argue about gun control, and just get right to the part where we do nothing?


Why do you hate "the children"?
 
2013-01-09 11:34:34 AM  

Xlr8urfark: And rebellious snow bunnies!


img3.etsystatic.com
 
2013-01-09 11:34:57 AM  
Does this mean 1776 will not commence?
 
2013-01-09 11:35:45 AM  

Nem Wan: Constitutionally, the president is allowed to suspend habeas corpus in cases of rebellion or invasion


No, only Congress can. Ex parte Merryman.

Lincoln purported to do it anyway, then got biatch-slapped by Justice Taney, so Lincoln (the great respecter of liberty that he was) then promptly turned around and tried to get Taney arrested.
 
2013-01-09 11:35:50 AM  

dittybopper: dittybopper: (that weren't true, btw)?

Well, some may have been.

Still, I wonder how much of it was instigated by the government. It's pretty much well known that if you claim to be part of some militia organization, the FBI is going to actively attempt to infiltrate that group. They've been doing that since the 1990's

1960's.
 
2013-01-09 11:38:11 AM  

Phinn: PacManDreaming: Meh, if there was a major uprising, all the government would have to do is turn off the electricity, water, communications and have grocery suppliers stop all food deliveries.

How long do you think the government would continue to operate after the people turn off the supply of tax money?

Wars are economic contests. The only reason we can continue losing a war in Afghanistan is that there are people like me back here paying for it.

When the government decides to put missiles on the drones it flies is US airspace, people will stop paying them.

The government's source of revenue will become a source of gunfire aimed in their direction. The government may not care much about the gunfire at first, but they will care about the loss of revenue.

Guerrilla units are relatively cheap. The US military is so bloated and inefficient that it couldn't operate if there were a single week of interruption in the collection of taxes.


It's hard to picture an uprising popular enough that enough people join it that the government starves, but so few people support it that supporters of the cause can't win elections.

Even in a broken two-party system where money is speech.
 
2013-01-09 11:38:13 AM  

Mike_LowELL: Step 1: Perform military exercises out in the woods, preparing to take on a fully-trained, trillion-dollar-a-year fighting force with fully-trained, well-equpped soldiers that will not only has absolute air superiority with tactics synchronized through satellite and computer communication, but will eventually be able to employ robots which take human casualties out of the equation.  This way, if the government comes after your freedoms, you'll be ready to take them on.
Step 2: ROFL


It all depends on how big any one movement becomes. If enough people got pissed off enough and were united behind a charismatic enough leader, small factions within the military might take arms with the rebels. That would be legitimately terrifying. They would rationalize it by claiming that they only swore an oath to defend the Constitution, not the President, and this rebellion is in accord with the Constitution, etc. This would only happen under a Democratic administration, especially headed by a minority President. Oh, wait...

Actually, the likelihood of a real rebellion reaching that kind of critical mass in this country is very small as long as well all have food to eat and thousands of back episodes of TV shows for $8/month on Netflix. Syria is what things have to devolve to before people actually get desperate enough to fight their own governments en masse.
 
2013-01-09 11:38:31 AM  

dr_blasto: dittybopper: Ennuipoet: I've been trying to explain this to various retarded conservative friends over the past few months.  They seem to labor under the delusion the Army would never attack it's citizens and I have to explain again that "The Army" doesn't have to do shiat, just a couple of guys in a trailer with link to the Predators.

Farking 21st Century technology, how does it work?

Apparently not really all that well, or we wouldn't still be in Afghanistan, and we didn't use them to win in Iraq: We co-opted the tribal leadership there (ie., it was old fashioned politicking, not high tech).

Or, to put it another way: Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy things remotely is insignificant next to the power of ideology.

/I find your lack of faith disturbing.

Consider places like Afghanistan and Iraq, though: Mostly, they are desert-like areas, some flat, some mountainous, but generally with a very low amount of vegetation.

Now, this is not too far from where I live:

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 640x480]

How easy do you think a drone is going to have finding a small group of people in that? What if they disperse? How are the drones going to distinguish the infrared signatures of human-sized animals from humans?* How are you going to distinguish them from normal hikers? What will happen the first time you wipe out a bunch of innocent people hiking with a bomb or missile from an MQ-9 Reaper because they were mistaken for legitimate targets? What if it was a group of Cub Scouts? What if so-called "militias" take to dressing like hikers, hiding their guns in their packs or other normal hiking equipment except for when they are being actively used? How will you know who the target is?

No, I don't think the use of drones would be a game changer in the way you think it would be. In my opinion, that would actually work against the government. You start dropping bombs or missiles in the United States, even on what are ...


Your argument is the exact same thing people said 250 years ago, and the same thing that people have said before every revolution. They always start out looking like an impossible tasks. revolutionist start out being a joke, then they are arrested, then hung for treason, then slaughtered in the streets, but if the movement ideoligies are there, then it will develop.

Keep in mind I am not saying this is happening now or not, just that the argument that "the government will win, so you don't need guns, and you don't need to try" is idiotic, and those people need to pick up a real history book. Study the day by day, how the revolutionary war started. Study how the Russion revolution started. There are books that describe in detail the exact events of a very few key days.
 
2013-01-09 11:38:53 AM  

Phinn: Lincoln (the great respecter of liberty that he was)


You guys, the president that freed the slaves hated liberty. Read it on the internet.
 
2013-01-09 11:40:53 AM  
Show of hands, how many of you out there are furiously masturbating to the idea of our civilized world plunged into a Mad-Max grade hell hole?

Ok, that's what I thought.
 
2013-01-09 11:41:30 AM  

zarberg: So the words "well regulated" can't be ignored?


I'm sure they have no problem pooping on a regular schedule.  I can't imagine MREs is not a high fiber diet.
 
2013-01-09 11:42:21 AM  

Phinn: How long do you think the government would continue to operate after the people turn off the supply of tax money?

Wars are economic contests. The only reason we can continue losing a war in Afghanistan is that there are people like me back here paying for it.

When the government decides to put missiles on the drones it flies is US airspace, people will stop paying them.

The government's source of revenue will become a source of gunfire aimed in their direction. The government may not care much about the gunfire at first, but they will care about the loss of revenue.

Guerrilla units are relatively cheap. The US military is so bloated and inefficient that it couldn't operate if there were a single week of interruption in the collection of taxes.


You do know that the Gov prints your money right?
 
2013-01-09 11:42:51 AM  

Evil Twin Skippy: Show of hands, how many of you out there are furiously masturbating to the idea of our civilized world plunged into a Mad-Max grade hell hole?

Ok, that's what I thought.


I don;t think they are masturbating to that idea......killing all gun owners or wishing pancreatic cancer upon them, maybe.

Look at how gleeful people were in the FPS Russia guy thread.
Yet firearms owners are the ones who want to perpetrate violence upon others....wierd shiat that is.
 
2013-01-09 11:42:54 AM  
A second american revolution would have to be a war of attrition. basically IEDs and assassinations. lots of 'terrorist' style actions. it would only succeed with a sizable majority(70-80%) of the population sympathizing with the goals of the resistance or, a decent sized majority(50-60%) and some defected military units.

since it wouldn't be geographically split, it wouldn't make sense to wage total war on the insurgents, as all you would do is make new enemy soliders by killing civilians, possibly ones who would otherwise be on the side of the government. And you destroy the infrastructure that your own country and military needs to function.

In this scenario the small arms don't really matter, you can conduct raids and assassinations in a guerrilla fashion with a 1903 springfield, a M1 garand, or an m16a4 with pretty equal efficiency.

you aren't going to win an engagement with an army division, so the solution is not to get into one.
 
2013-01-09 11:43:04 AM  
FTFA: "I put myself here, with my own words," he said before pausing. "And I feel horrible about that."

Translation: "I'm sorry I got caught."
 
2013-01-09 11:43:25 AM  

Evil Twin Skippy: Show of hands, how many of you out there are furiously masturbating to the idea of our civilized world plunged into a Mad-Max grade hell hole?

Ok, that's what I thought.


Wait...Bartertown or the small band of survivors living in a refinery?  Or maybe the roving bands of motorcycle gangs who like to drive over babies?
 
2013-01-09 11:43:47 AM  
How is Afghanistan working out for you?
 
2013-01-09 11:44:24 AM  
I find this thread extremely disturbing. It's pretty farking obvious after all the jubilant glee about state superiority from the limp wrists and bearded horn rimmed glasses wearing hipster freaks in here that they can't wait for the tiniest suspicion in order to justify the bloodshed of their non center left (or more radical) countrymen. Great Farking job, Lord of the Flies motherfarking swine.
 
2013-01-09 11:44:27 AM  
Something something arrested development something something red dawn something something compensation something something real threat is apathy and sloth.
 
2013-01-09 11:44:51 AM  

doglover: DROxINxTHExWIND: Step 1: Set the woods on fire and smoke their dumb asses out.

Because if there's one thing wildfires do it's stay in one place and not cause catastrophic environmental and collateral damage.


Wait, I thought we were talking about the government coming to kill us. In all of the movies that I've seen about it, the soldiers who are trying to impose a New World Order don't give a shiat about the environment.
But, I see now that he may have just been talking about what would happen if a small group decided to rebel.
 
2013-01-09 11:44:57 AM  

Fubegra: FTFA: "I put myself here, with my own words," he said before pausing. "And I feel horrible about that."

Translation: "I'm sorry I got caught."


Everything happens for a reason. But sometimes that reason is that you are stupid and you make bad decisions.
 
2013-01-09 11:45:17 AM  

people: How is Afghanistan working out for you?


oh, just like 'Nam, but with much less resistance from the public.
 
2013-01-09 11:45:38 AM  

Mike_LowELL: Step 1: Perform military exercises out in the woods, preparing to take on a fully-trained, trillion-dollar-a-year fighting force with fully-trained, well-equpped soldiers that will not only has absolute air superiority with tactics synchronized through satellite and computer communication, but will eventually be able to employ robots which take human casualties out of the equation. This way, if the government comes after your freedoms, you'll be ready to take them on.
Step 2: ROFL


The Afganis kicked our asses...and before us, the Soviets. Thats quite a farking accomplishment, if you ask me.
 
2013-01-09 11:45:49 AM  

Ennuipoet: I've been trying to explain this to various retarded conservative friends over the past few months. They seem to labor under the delusion the Army would never attack it's citizens and I have to explain again that "The Army" doesn't have to do shiat, just a couple of guys in a trailer with link to the Predators.


And, besides, even if the army won't attack its citizens, that doesn't mean the police won't.
 
2013-01-09 11:46:08 AM  
B-b-b-b-ut Imaginary possible Hitler!
 
2013-01-09 11:46:15 AM  

MayoSlather: There is a difference between currency and resources. They don't need cash especially if they can print their own or simply take the resources they need.


The Confederacy tried to print its way through a war. The burst of printing makes things look good for a few days or weeks, then inflation takes over.

Besides, invading governments and militaries cannot run an economy. They can steal stuff, but that only lasts for so long. Taking resources by military invasion is not a long-term economic solution.

The US government can't even afford Medicare. It cannot afford a domestic war, largely because it would be waged against the people they need to pay for its wars.
 
2013-01-09 11:46:15 AM  

SuperT: A second american revolution would have to be a war of attrition. basically IEDs and assassinations. lots of 'terrorist' style actions. it would only succeed with a sizable majority(70-80%) of the population sympathizing with the goals of the resistance or, a decent sized majority(50-60%) and some defected military units.

since it wouldn't be geographically split, it wouldn't make sense to wage total war on the insurgents, as all you would do is make new enemy soliders by killing civilians, possibly ones who would otherwise be on the side of the government. And you destroy the infrastructure that your own country and military needs to function.

In this scenario the small arms don't really matter, you can conduct raids and assassinations in a guerrilla fashion with a 1903 springfield, a M1 garand, or an m16a4 with pretty equal efficiency.

you aren't going to win an engagement with an army division, so the solution is not to get into one.


Plus it's pretty easy to pick out the guys wearing BDUs with american flag patches...not so easy to pick out which guy going to work in dickies is a guerilla.
 
2013-01-09 11:46:43 AM  

Phinn: They'll probably put him in the deepest hole they have -- ADX Florence. That's where they put the ones that embarrass them.


Yeah, this dude totally embarrassed them.

Before he was sentenced, Cox broke down several times, grabbing tissues and fighting back tears.

"I put myself here, with my own words," he said before pausing. "And I feel horrible about that."
 
2013-01-09 11:47:10 AM  

Stinkyy: I find this thread extremely disturbing. It's pretty farking obvious after all the jubilant glee about state superiority from the limp wrists and bearded horn rimmed glasses wearing hipster freaks in here that they can't wait for the tiniest suspicion in order to justify the bloodshed of their non center left (or more radical) countrymen. Great Farking job, Lord of the Flies motherfarking swine.


Off with your head!
 
2013-01-09 11:48:04 AM  
The idea that evolution needs to be violent is a homo erectus meme.

Want to shut it all down?
Strike.
Just stop buying everything.

Gandhi got it right.

Rifles? Even T.E. Lawrence knew it was stupid to go against conventional forces with conventional tactics. Remember who he taught this to? The Arabs.
Doh!

/The 2nd Amendment does not mean what most of you think it means.
 
2013-01-09 11:49:47 AM  

vudukungfu: people: How is Afghanistan working out for you?

oh, just like 'Nam, but with much less resistance from the public.


Look.  You know nothing.  We are there...with a mission to...well...you know...help.  I guess.
 
2013-01-09 11:50:20 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: You guys, the president that freed the slaves hated liberty. Read it on the internet.


He didn't free any slaves. He proclaimed (wholly ineffectually) to free the slaves in the territories they did not control, but not in the border states they did control.
 
2013-01-09 11:50:43 AM  

Catsaregreen: So what you Fark pussies are saying is, "Hand over your guns now, because there's no way you can fight the government. If they want to take away your freedoms, they can and there's nothing you can do about it"?

Our Founding Fathers are rolling over in their graves.


Are you saying that all the militia nuts in the country combined would be a match for a handful of drone strikes? You have every right to believe what you want and I have every right to point out how delusional you are.

I can understand wanting to keep your guns. Heck, I have friends and family with guns and I like to go out to the desert with them and shoot cans when I'm invited. But, I don't kid myself into thinking that privately owned fire arms are the only thing keeping the gubment from pushing me around.
 
2013-01-09 11:50:53 AM  

dittybopper: They can instigate people into taking actions that are illegal, providing all the support and material means necessary, and cultivating them to do so without stepping over the technical legal definition of entrapment. Without the money, support, and most importantly the cultivation, nothing would have happened.


The government has been doing this for years to keep people afraid of the TERRORISTS
 
2013-01-09 11:51:19 AM  
If this guy had had access to mental healthcare before his crazy got him arrested, he might be a happy, productive person for the next 26 years instead of a number in a cell.
 
2013-01-09 11:51:34 AM  

Ennuipoet: Mike_LowELL: Step 1: Perform military exercises out in the woods, preparing to take on a fully-trained, trillion-dollar-a-year fighting force with fully-trained, well-equpped soldiers that will not only has absolute air superiority with tactics synchronized through satellite and computer communication, but will eventually be able to employ robots which take human casualties out of the equation.  This way, if the government comes after your freedoms, you'll be ready to take them on.
Step 2: ROFL

I've been trying to explain this to various retarded conservative friends over the past few months.  They seem to labor under the delusion the Army would never attack it's citizens and I have to explain again that "The Army" doesn't have to do shiat, just a couple of guys in a trailer with link to the Predators.

Farking 21st Century technology, how does it work?


You'd think Americans would have a bit better appreciation for asymetrical warfare and insurgencies after what we've seen since 2001, but nope.
 
2013-01-09 11:53:08 AM  
No 'well-armed' militia on the planet is capable of mounting a rebellion against the US government if the government just used APCs and A-10 Warthogs. Literally 40 year old technically, the lowest possible escalation of force available over boots on the ground. If the army doesn't turn, then any rebellion is doomed. If it does, then armed rebellion isn't needed. More than that, however, I cannot imagine any series of events that leads the United States to such cartoonish evil that armed rebellion would be required.

Regardless, the main point stands. If the army doesn't break it's oath, one must either assume the government has stayed true to it's oath to the army and the people. Anything less is an outright and utter insult to those service men and women. Planning for anything else is an insult, even. Why do you hate our troops?
 
2013-01-09 11:53:19 AM  

Catsaregreen: So what you Fark pussies are saying is, "Hand over your guns now, because there's no way you can fight the government. If they want to take away your freedoms, they can and there's nothing you can do about it"?

Our Founding Fathers are rolling over in their graves.


Perhaps, but you kind of did it to yourselves when you insisted we have the largest and most powerful military in the history of the world and gave them virtually unlimited funds to become as such. Kind of made your bed with that one conservatives.
 
2013-01-09 11:53:36 AM  

Giltric: Plus it's pretty easy to pick out the guys wearing BDUs with american flag patches...not so easy to pick out which guy going to work in dickies is a guerilla.


/Yes, and this is why the US Army's green beret capstone training exercise, Robin Sage, involves exactly that kind of dynamic and cast of characters.
//Nobody would know who were the good old boys and who were the anti-insurgency specialists -- and there are a shiatload of them when you step outside the south asian foreign language realms and into "let's take out these redneck bubbas" arena.
 
2013-01-09 11:53:43 AM  

doglover: vpb: I can't think of a single militia group that has even had the balls to put up a fight when the police took them down.

Maybe it's because the police don't try to go in guns blazing anymore.

FBI Critical Incident Response Group

Do you remember Ruby Ridge, or were you not born yet? Then almost at the same time Waco. The government farkED UP. THEY killed people, not the militia. Not the cult. The government did the dirty deeds. Thus it was that we the people realized there was some seriously farked up shiat going on and all the agencies had to do some housecleaning and re-organize their methods. Since then, we really haven't had any armed confrontations with militia groups that ended poorly because NEITHER SIDE wants that.

What violence in your soul are you projecting?


some of the folks here who have outlined scenarios where the feds slaughter militiamen forget that the soldiers being asked to do so have a conscience, and there are political repercussions to shooting American civilians.
 
2013-01-09 11:54:21 AM  

Catsaregreen: Our Founding Fathers are rolling over in their velvet-lined, jewel-encrusted graves.

 
2013-01-09 11:54:25 AM  

lakmep: You do know that the Gov prints your money right?


Government control over printing of money only matters when you agree to follow that government. Anyone can print money.

What matters in wars is control of real assets. Waging a war against domestic citizens would be an instant economic disaster for the US government.
 
2013-01-09 11:54:26 AM  

Catsaregreen: So what you Fark pussies are saying is, "Hand over your guns now, because there's no way you can fight the government. If they want to take away your freedoms, they can and there's nothing you can do about it"?

Our Founding Fathers are rolling over in their graves.


That's pretty much I got out of the first 50 posts.
 
2013-01-09 11:55:56 AM  

birchman: Catsaregreen: So what you Fark pussies are saying is, "Hand over your guns now, because there's no way you can fight the government. If they want to take away your freedoms, they can and there's nothing you can do about it"?

Our Founding Fathers are rolling over in their graves.

Perhaps, but you kind of did it to yourselves when you insisted we have the largest and most powerful military in the history of the world and gave them virtually unlimited funds to become as such. Kind of made your bed with that one conservatives.


Haw-haw!
Or should I say, Hee-Haw!

/The US military is the most ultimately self-destructive jobs program in the history of the planet.
 
2013-01-09 11:58:19 AM  
Cripes, a lot of the people here must ride the short bus. Sorry, that's insulting the developmentally disabled.

If you read specific, non biased accounts of most of the so-called "militias", you'll find that they share a lot in common with religious fundamentalist groups and political parties... qualities like self identification with the group as a basis for self worth, a distorted view of the world providing a fertile environment for their cause, and delusions of grandeur regarding their eventual goals.

That said, in a a real "uprising", firearms as currently owned by private citizens in the US would serve only one real function except for certain specialized models... that function being to shoot a uniformed soldier and take his weapons.

The fantasy of a group of citizens armed with weapons currently legal for private ownership being anything more than a speed bump to a professional army on the battlefield is just that, a fantasy. However, anyone who's studied history knows that that's a really dumb way to run an uprising. We Americans actually pioneered guerilla warfare during our own revolutionary war.

As the US government found out in Vietnam, it's hard to fight an enemy that can hide in plain sight. If the government ever chose to fight its own people, it would actually lose fairly quickly unless the rebels were idiots like this guy. That's because aside from convincing soldiers to fire on their own neighbors (or families) they would be fighting veterans FROM THEIR OWN ARMED FORCES who were discharged from service.

These veterans would know all the tactics, procedures, and behavior of the military (and possibly some of the actual soldiers). Also, they'd be fighting a massive 5th column from within their own organizations and infiltrators from the general population who "join up" after things start off. There would probably be enough sympathizers still in the federal army and enough infiltrators that any large (several thousand minimum) group of rebels attacked by the govt. would rapidly acquire military grade weapons. There are arsenals spread all over after all, and in the event of an uprising more weapons would be shipped in.

Aside from actual shooting, there would be huge casualties from resistance fighters. Imagine every time a soldier stopped at McDonald's there was a chance they'd get something toxic but slow acting in their burger, or whenever they stopped for gas on the road someone stuck a grenade in their truck's fuel tank.

A popular uprising in the US would be a nightmare, but it wouldn't happen at all like this lunatic thinks it would, nor most of the people commenting here (seriously, you guys sound like you're talking about a football game or something).

Which is why I'm not too concerned about a ban on "assault weapons" happening in the near future, other than the fact that it's a waste of time and pulls effort away from fixing the real problem. I'm sure the most effective weapons for me to use in case of uprising will still be available... a 12 gauge pump for short range work and a quality bolt action with a good scope for sniping.
If I'm ever concerned I'll be targeted by a drone, I'll make sure to wear camouflage... something from LL Bean or Land's end should do... while I stroll down main street next to the army base, performing reconnaissance for the next strike and looking darn good while doing it.
 
2013-01-09 11:58:38 AM  
A psychological exam ordered by Cox's new attorney, Peter Camiel of Seattle, after he was convicted showed Cox suffered from several paranoid disorders.

You don't say.
 
2013-01-09 11:59:08 AM  
I find it amusing that the same political party that wants to own weapons in case they need to take on the government have made sure that same military they would have to fight would be the largest in the world by 10 fold..

I guess they like challenges....
 
2013-01-09 12:00:06 PM  

AccuJack: Aside from actual shooting, there would be huge casualties from resistance fighters. Imagine every time a soldier stopped at McDonald's there was a chance they'd get something toxic but slow acting in their burger


That's already happening.
 
2013-01-09 12:01:59 PM  

I_C_Weener: zarberg: So the words "well regulated" can't be ignored?

I'm sure they have no problem pooping on a regular schedule.  I can't imagine MREs is not a high fiber diet.


Depends on which part you eat. The crackers have a bit of fiber in them, and the gum has a mild laxative effect. Avoid those, and you can be stopped up for days.
 
2013-01-09 12:02:09 PM  

HotWingConspiracy: You guys, the president that freed the slaves hated liberty. Read it on the internet.


He only freed the slaves in the areas that rebelled. Maryland and Delaware were free to keep their slaves a little while longer.
 
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