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(CNN)   New film covers what "Lincoln" missed. Intermission?   (cnn.com) divider line 46
    More: Interesting, ethnic jokes, still lives, Emancipation Proclamation, political power, Steven Spielberg, Mount Rushmore  
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2557 clicks; posted to Entertainment » on 08 Jan 2013 at 11:16 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-08 07:41:30 PM
Oh, that is so wrong. I love it.
 
2013-01-08 07:42:47 PM
He missed having his frontal lobe intact...
He missed the part where they said "On your mark"...
He missed Dorothy when she walked by...
 
2013-01-08 08:27:38 PM
'Our American Cousin' is a 3-act play.
Lincoln was shot halfway through Act III, Scene 2.

headline fail.
 
2013-01-08 11:15:31 PM
I don't know who to believe in anymore.  My heroes are douchebags my enemies are throw pillows.

Gah I say, GAAAAH!
 
2013-01-08 11:20:31 PM

calbert: 'Our American Cousin' is a 3-act play.
Lincoln was shot halfway through Act III, Scene 2.

headline fail.


Oh you... Just let 'em have it. I mean, it's not like we're spoiling it for Lincoln.
 
2013-01-08 11:31:02 PM
Nice.

Very nice.
 
2013-01-08 11:36:55 PM
Or, they laid the groundwork and then Lincoln had the political power and the will to finish the work. It's not an either/or proposition, and blaming the movie "Lincoln" for ignoring a part of the story that's not in any way part of the focused narrative they're telling in that movie is...well, it's a stupid CNN.com article. Oh wait, that means it's a normal CNN article.
 
2013-01-08 11:40:11 PM
cdn-7.nflximg.com
 
2013-01-08 11:49:37 PM

JosephFinn: Or, they laid the groundwork and then Lincoln had the political power and the will to finish the work. It's not an either/or proposition, and blaming the movie "Lincoln" for ignoring a part of the story that's not in any way part of the focused narrative they're telling in that movie is...well, it's a stupid CNN.com article. Oh wait, that means it's a normal CNN article.


You are correct, it's not and either/or thing. But it does history a disservice to omit Lincoln's opinions and the way they grew and changed when telling his story. He was the Great Emancipator, but it wasn't just that simple.

Be honest, how many more people are going to see and be influenced by "Lincoln" than by Ken Burns' "The Civil War"?
 
2013-01-08 11:50:26 PM
See, for most of the world, it works like this:
If we want an entertaining film, then all that's necessary is that the get the history right enough that it takes a low-grade geek to have a problem with it. Take, for example, Lincoln.  In this case.

If we want a history lesson, we go read a book.

If we want ultra-PC pedantics, we'll go watch PBS.

People who go to major theatrical releases expecting a full and correct accounting of all of the nuances of history need to stop going to movies. They'll never be happy, and they're annoying as all fark.
 
2013-01-08 11:51:47 PM
I hate it when historians and pseudo historians don't take things in context.

Lincoln wasn't a radical...and that's what the Abolitionist were. He believed in the law and democracy.  The constitution legalized Slavery in the South.  Lincoln believed that it would eventually die out. However with the introduction of it into the West threatened to prolong is indefinitely.

 And the people didn't want Blacks to be "free" either.  Lincoln main focus was to save the Union. But Lincoln knew how to navigate politics and the people. He knew how to change the outlook of people to put an end to Slavery.

Lincoln used the N word, because it wasn't considered a bad word back then.  He told off colored jokes of all types because he was a guy.

He sad African Americans were inferior not because they were black, but because they did not have a chance to blossom.

"I want every man to have the chance - and I believe a black man is entitled to it - in which he can better his condition, when he may look forward and hope to be a hired laborer this year and the next, work for himself afterward, and finally to hire men to work for him. That is the true system." (Speech at New Haven, March 6, 1860)

FTFA: Others point to the public comments Lincoln made during one of his famed senatorial debates with Stephen Douglas in 1858 when he said, "There is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality.
"There must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race," Lincoln said in the speech.


People keep forgetting that Lincoln was a politician. He said shiat to get elected.  He had to run as a moderate.  Especially running for office in a radically divided state such as Illinois (abolitionist north with southern sympathies in the south)   As the book Team of Rivals pointed out, Lincoln made an effort NOT to alienate anyone.

Fredric Douglas specifically pointed out that Lincoln was the first white person who ever treated him like a man, and not as an educated black man.

Yes he suggested to sending Slaves to Africa. He was trying to save the Union by doing what could be done.

"If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union."


FTFA: No. 1: The Great Persuader was not Lincoln

The hell he wasn't.  Lincoln knew that the people had to be convinced to do the right thing. He got the moderates and radicals together in order to get the Amendment past.. (Abolitionist were radicals)
 
2013-01-08 11:52:57 PM

unlikely: People who go to major theatrical releases expecting a full and correct accounting of all of the nuances of history need to stop going to movies. They'll never be happy, and they're annoying as all fark.


/said the degree-toting Classical historian (me) who enjoys Sword-and-Sandals films like Gladiator and 300
 
2013-01-08 11:54:05 PM
Lincoln is the president that Obama channels most often

Someone needs to send this article to the Whitehouse stat - retcon may be required.
 
2013-01-08 11:59:58 PM
Yes, because judging a person from the 1860's on today's attitudes towards racism is fair.
 
2013-01-09 12:14:50 AM
John wilkes booth's 5-minute time-traveling version of psy's horse dance?
 
2013-01-09 12:18:45 AM
I think the movie covered his vampire killing exploits, that our liberal education system failed to teach me, quite well.
 
2013-01-09 12:19:33 AM

unlikely: unlikely: People who go to major theatrical releases expecting a full and correct accounting of all of the nuances of history need to stop going to movies. They'll never be happy, and they're annoying as all fark.

/said the degree-toting Classical historian (me) who enjoys Sword-and-Sandals films like Gladiator and 300


This.

Of course, we don't have enough documentaries on say, the history channel these days. And even in its heyday, it would have been nice to cover more topics than your average social studies fair.
 
2013-01-09 12:40:35 AM
"I hate it when historians and pseudo historians don't take things in context."
And then rant off a bunch of psuedo history. sheesh.

There's little wonder in my mind about why zombies are all the rage these days among the younger set...too much history. The mortician buries people in the grave and the historian digs them up again and sics them on the living.
 
2013-01-09 12:55:57 AM

Fano: unlikely: unlikely: People who go to major theatrical releases expecting a full and correct accounting of all of the nuances of history need to stop going to movies. They'll never be happy, and they're annoying as all fark.

/said the degree-toting Classical historian (me) who enjoys Sword-and-Sandals films like Gladiator and 300

This.

Of course, we don't have enough documentaries on say, the history channel these days. And even in its heyday, it would have been nice to cover more topics than your average social studies fair.


Setting aside speculations concerning ancient aliens, quite a few of the History Channel's shows are rather decent supplements to history books.
 
2013-01-09 01:08:17 AM

worlddan: "I hate it when historians and pseudo historians don't take things in context."
And then rant off a bunch of psuedo history. sheesh.

There's little wonder in my mind about why zombies are all the rage these days among the younger set...too much history. The mortician buries people in the grave and the historian digs them up again and sics them on the living.


Dammit, I am better than a pseudo historian, I'm FARK Historian!

Besides, I figured I'd throw my opinion out there against theirs. Marketplace of ideas and all that.
 
2013-01-09 01:12:23 AM

calbert: 'Our American Cousin' is a 3-act play.
Lincoln was shot halfway through Act III, Scene 2.

headline fail.


You sockdologizing old mantrap...
 
2013-01-09 01:13:54 AM

JosephFinn: Or, they laid the groundwork and then Lincoln had the political power and the will to finish the work. It's not an either/or proposition, and blaming the movie "Lincoln" for ignoring a part of the story that's not in any way part of the focused narrative they're telling in that movie is...well, it's a stupid CNN.com article. Oh wait, that means it's a normal CNN article.


Fano: unlikely: unlikely: People who go to major theatrical releases expecting a full and correct accounting of all of the nuances of history need to stop going to movies. They'll never be happy, and they're annoying as all fark.

/said the degree-toting Classical historian (me) who enjoys Sword-and-Sandals films like Gladiator and 300

This.

Of course, we don't have enough documentaries on say, the history channel these days. And even in its heyday, it would have been nice to cover more topics than your average social studies fair.



Here's my problem with the article:

Ctrl-F for "Doris", "Goodwin", "Rivals" - no results.

It pisses me off when everyone takes shots at the movie and says nothing about the book it was based on. Team of Rivals got made into a movie for a very good reason; Goodwin did an amazing amount of research using a ton of sources that thousands of Lincoln scholars never bothered looking through. I read the book as part of a graduate course on the Civil War, and I'm re-reading it now after having seen Lincoln.

You want to talk about distorting history and taking things out of context? This shiat right here:

He used the N-word and told racist jokes. He once said African-Americans were inferior to whites. He proposed ending slavery by shipping willing slaves back to Africa.

That's a fine bunch of information to take at face value by 21st-Century readers. But a LOT of people proposed African repatriation - including Jefferson in Notes on the State of Virginia (Jefferson even went so far as to say he thought that the only two viable solutions for America were to free black people and send them back to Africa, or keep them as slaves, and allowing them to co-habitate with white Americans would be impossible). It was seen as a viable solution up until the end of the war by a number of people, and to characterize Lincoln as having some sort of radical idea is disingenuous.

And he did once say that blacks were inferior to whites - but he also took cases where he defended the rights of blacks. And his experiences in these cases helped shape his opposition to slavery.

History is a complex monster. The best scene in Lincoln is when he discusses the legal quandary of the Emancipation Proclamation and it's relation to the way the war was prosecuted as an insurrection and not a war with a separate state. Lincoln knew exactly what he was doing, and knew that he had to tread into moral gray areas to carry out a successful war effort.

And Stowe, Garrison, and Douglass don't get screen time or attention because - get this - the story Spielberg was telling was about events centered around Lincoln as thematically arranged in Goodwin's book, which wasn't concerned about any of those characters.

And I really wonder what sort of perverse canonization they're trying to put on John Brown in all this. Why hold him up as a more important figure than Lincoln - because his raid was likely the point of no return for avoiding armed conflict over the issue? Brown was like the man who shot Archduke Ferdinand in 1914 - a man full of self-importance and self-righteousness, who thought he was doing the will of his god, and ultimately was a barbaric force of violence that merely triggered deeper political and economic problems.
 
2013-01-09 01:17:44 AM
Lincoln's run-time is only 150 minutes, subby. Hardly long enough to necessitate an intermission.
 
2013-01-09 01:36:54 AM
The Civil War was about shiat that the Founding Fathers passed onto their kids.
 
2013-01-09 02:21:45 AM
I mean, ffs. It was a movie. You really want to go back and replay Lincoln's entire Presidency and the whole antebellum period and Civil War in real time so you can get in EVERYTHING? You can, but it's going to take a very long time and nobody will sit through it all.
 
2013-01-09 02:26:04 AM
The primary flaw of this piece, to me, is that it doesn't even take into account the context/setting of the film itself. The film begins after the Emancipation Proclamation, after Gettysburg, after Lincoln's re-election, and soon before the end of the war. Of course it was going to leave out figures like Douglass and Stowe, and of course it wasn't going to discuss Lincoln's supposedly racist tendencies. By the time of the film's beginning, Lincoln's public stance had changed dramatically, and if he actually was bigoted or racist by today's standards, he had completely altered his views by this time.

This piece is trying to make it sound like 'Lincoln' is intended to be the definitive work on Lincoln's views of slavery. If that were the case, it would be a 10-hour film, or a Ken Burns documentary. 'Lincoln' the film is about Lincoln the politician as the war was ending. All those mentioned in the CNN piece were vital in laying down the groundwork, but their presence in the film would have been largely inappropriate in the film's setting. The Lincoln that's discussed in this piece is simply not the Lincoln that existed in 1964.
 
2013-01-09 02:48:17 AM

Paris1127: calbert: 'Our American Cousin' is a 3-act play.
Lincoln was shot halfway through Act III, Scene 2.

headline fail.

You sockdologizing old mantrap...


That line really killed that night.
 
2013-01-09 02:52:35 AM

calbert: 'Our American Cousin' is a 3-act play.
Lincoln was shot halfway through Act III, Scene 2.

headline fail.


I'll bet you're a blast at parties.
 
2013-01-09 03:26:28 AM

nein: The Lincoln that's discussed in this piece is simply not the Lincoln that existed in 1964.


www.blogcdn.com
 
2013-01-09 04:56:35 AM
I'd like a film that delves into Lincoln's men bed friends DNA.

He's like them really dark caucasians, like Elvis or gypsys (pikeys), who just look freakin' weird, like they need a wash all the time.
What's up with that?

Melungeons or whatever they were called. That would make an interesting film.
 
2013-01-09 05:54:31 AM
You can't handle the truth.
 
2013-01-09 07:01:59 AM
"Sick Summer Timpani's!"

i.ytimg.com
 
2013-01-09 07:09:16 AM
New film covers what "Lincoln" missed.

I will tell you what didn't miss...


...John Wilkes Booth bullet.
 
2013-01-09 08:33:44 AM

nein: If that were the case, it would be a 10-hour film, or a Ken Burns documentary.


The unabridged version of Team of Rivals takes up something like 36 CDs. I'm not sure if Burns' trademark nine 75-minute episodes would be enough.

/the whole thing needs to be turned into an HBO series
 
2013-01-09 09:07:01 AM
Stupid article (as noted above) and it didn't even answer the most important thing in the movie: was there really a guy named "Bilbo" who helped bribe congressmen?
 
2013-01-09 09:33:54 AM
What the fark is wrong with liking minstrel shows?
 
2013-01-09 09:39:36 AM
i573.photobucket.com i573.photobucket.com
 
2013-01-09 09:51:50 AM
Soooo.... he was a closet racist who wanted the blacks shipped back to Africa?

Basically, a modern-day Republican?
 
2013-01-09 09:53:01 AM
You know, except for the whole fascist thing.
 
2013-01-09 09:58:10 AM
FTFA:(Imagine activists today persuading the country to shut down Apple and Google the gun industry because they deem their business practices immoral.)

FTFAF (Fixed that for analogy fail).
 
2013-01-09 10:00:53 AM

UNC_Samurai: You want to talk about distorting history and taking things out of context? This shiat right here:

"He used the N-word and told racist jokes. He once said African-Americans were inferior to whites. He proposed ending slavery by shipping willing slaves back to Africa."


No kidding. I'm not taking anyone's historical analysis seriously if they just plunk that steaming load into their article without proper context. Fail, CNN.
 
2013-01-09 10:34:34 AM

someonelse: UNC_Samurai: You want to talk about distorting history and taking things out of context? This shiat right here:

"He used the N-word and told racist jokes. He once said African-Americans were inferior to whites. He proposed ending slavery by shipping willing slaves back to Africa."

No kidding. I'm not taking anyone's historical analysis seriously if they just plunk that steaming load into their article without proper context. Fail, CNN.


Good thing we have a cadre of experts to beat up the guy who freed slaves by stating that he wasn't good enough. I wonder what historical issue they will be judged for not saying the perfect thing about.
 
2013-01-09 10:45:25 AM

Qaiwolf: nein: The Lincoln that's discussed in this piece is simply not the Lincoln that existed in 1964.


Oops. Well, on the bright side, my statement is still true even with typo...
 
2013-01-09 11:04:58 AM

ongbok: I think the movie covered his vampire killing exploits, that our liberal education system failed to teach me, quite well.


Wifey and I saw both movies in the same week. We were pleased how they each focused on a different aspect of Lincoln's life.
 
2013-01-09 07:44:48 PM

Tyrone Slothrop: Stupid article (as noted above) and it didn't even answer the most important thing in the movie: was there really a guy named "Bilbo" who helped bribe congressmen?


William N. Bilbo, Tennessee lawyer and shadow lobbyist for the Lincoln administration.
 
2013-01-09 08:33:48 PM

UNC_Samurai: Tyrone Slothrop: Stupid article (as noted above) and it didn't even answer the most important thing in the movie: was there really a guy named "Bilbo" who helped bribe congressmen?

William N. Bilbo, Tennessee lawyer and shadow lobbyist for the Lincoln administration.


Did he have a nephew named Frodo?
 
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