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(NPR)   For 'Wheel Of Time' Fans, The Last Battle Is At Hand. Tai'shar Manetheran. Dovie'andi se tovya sagain   (npr.org) divider line 247
    More: Sappy, Manetheran, time series, Wheel of Time, blood diseases, advance copy  
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3982 clicks; posted to Geek » on 07 Jan 2013 at 6:48 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-07 05:45:22 PM
Ordered from Amazon - release date January 8th. Was hoping halfheartedly to read it online since I've bought a copy already, but haven't found one.

Been reading since 1990 man....1990.
 
2013-01-07 06:45:04 PM
I stopped reading this series somewhere in book 6 or so when I realized I could open any of the previous books to any random point and I probably wouldn't know what was going on or who half the characters were.
 
2013-01-07 06:49:29 PM
I got my tracking number this morning. It should be on my porch when I get home from work tomorrow.

I just want to be done with the series at this point.
 
2013-01-07 06:51:48 PM
I've read a lot of the spoilers and if you've been waiting years and years for this book and the ending let me just say, prepare to be disappointed.
 
2013-01-07 06:52:28 PM
Spoiler alert:

sniff, tug braid, smooth dress, sniff
 
2013-01-07 06:52:53 PM
Waiting on FedEx to deliver my copy

/should have reread the last book, but fark it.
 
2013-01-07 06:53:50 PM
Oh, and the male characters were written as though they're half-retarded socially awkward 16 year olds and the female characters were written as though it was Mean Girls in a magical fantasy realm.
 
2013-01-07 06:57:30 PM
FTFA:

It's the moment fantasy fans have been waiting for (really!): After more than 20 years, the death of the authorand 13 doorstopper volumes, the last book in the best-selling Wheel of Time series comes out Tuesday. Martin fans seen looking around nervously

fixed it for them.
 
2013-01-07 06:59:11 PM
I was going to start the series when I finished ASOIAF until I heard the original author died and another is picking up the pieces.

I don't feel like I'd be reading true canon if I picked the series up. GRRM says all the time he knows what happens in the end, but not how it happens. I can't imagine we'd be getting the same product Jordan would deliver.

I could be wrong though. If I were reading it since the 90s then I'd get it just for some amount of closure. But I don't think I'll pick it up unless the reviews are really, really good.
 
2013-01-07 07:02:57 PM
This is why my wife and I have instituted the "don't start reading a series until it's over" rule.

//I want to read "A Game of Thrones" so bad.
///BUT NO.
 
2013-01-07 07:04:32 PM

LockeOak: I stopped reading this series somewhere in book 6 or so when I realized I could open any of the previous books to any random point and I probably wouldn't know what was going on or who half the characters were.


At a certain point you have to accept that you're never going to know who all of the characters are. There are probably around 100 who matter, and 1900 who are interchangeable with other characters of their type (Maiden/Aes Sedai/Two Rivers person/etc.) and therefore don't need to be remembered.

I'm pretty excited. I think Sanderson's been better than Jordan was for his last few books. Book 4's still the best, but 12 and 13 were much better than 7-11. I am a little worried though. After so many years waiting, I dunno that any ending to the series can be satisfying.
 
2013-01-07 07:06:03 PM

ModernLuddite: This is why my wife and I have instituted the "don't start reading a series until it's over" rule.

//I want to read "A Game of Thrones" so bad.
///BUT NO.


Don't worry, just read the Wikipedia article on the War of the Roses.
 
2013-01-07 07:06:22 PM

LockeOak: Oh, and the male characters were written as though they're half-retarded socially awkward 16 year olds and the female characters were written as though it was Mean Girls in a magical fantasy realm.


Seeing as most of the starting characters WERE around 18 or so at the start of the first book, that makes sense.
 
2013-01-07 07:06:25 PM

redmond24: I was going to start the series when I finished ASOIAF until I heard the original author died and another is picking up the pieces.

I don't feel like I'd be reading true canon if I picked the series up. GRRM says all the time he knows what happens in the end, but not how it happens. I can't imagine we'd be getting the same product Jordan would deliver.

I could be wrong though. If I were reading it since the 90s then I'd get it just for some amount of closure. But I don't think I'll pick it up unless the reviews are really, really good.


Sanderson worked with Jordan's wife from the notes Jordan left as he knew he probably wouldn't finish the series. And Brandon Sanderson has done an excellent job so far, looking forward to my copy tomorrow.
 
2013-01-07 07:09:01 PM

Boojum2k: redmond24: I was going to start the series when I finished ASOIAF until I heard the original author died and another is picking up the pieces.

I don't feel like I'd be reading true canon if I picked the series up. GRRM says all the time he knows what happens in the end, but not how it happens. I can't imagine we'd be getting the same product Jordan would deliver.

I could be wrong though. If I were reading it since the 90s then I'd get it just for some amount of closure. But I don't think I'll pick it up unless the reviews are really, really good.

Sanderson worked with Jordan's wife from the notes Jordan left as he knew he probably wouldn't finish the series. And Brandon Sanderson has done an excellent job so far, looking forward to my copy tomorrow.


Jordan also supposedly left around 1000 finished pages between the last three books, including the final scenes. I'm sure they've been edited, but I'm fairly confident that these books represent Jordan's plans. (Although perhaps less grandiose versions of them, since Jordan probably would have gone on another five books if he'd lived.)
 
2013-01-07 07:09:42 PM

Smeggy Smurf: Spoiler alert:
sniff, tug braid, smooth dress, sniff


Na, she had her hair chopped off in one of the last two books, so now she just wants to tug on the braid all the time.

redmond24: I was going to start the series when I finished ASOIAF until I heard the original author died and another is picking up the pieces.
I don't feel like I'd be reading true canon if I picked the series up. GRRM says all the time he knows what happens in the end, but not how it happens. I can't imagine we'd be getting the same product Jordan would deliver.
I could be wrong though. If I were reading it since the 90s then I'd get it just for some amount of closure. But I don't think I'll pick it up unless the reviews are really, really good.


Robert Jordan knew his time was nearly up and prepared for it by leaving copious notes. Plus the new author is very good in his own right; the last two books that were penned by Brandon Sanderson have been an improvement over the last few RJ penned books. A big improvement.

I should have my copy tomorrow when I get home. Finally get this series completed and move on.
 
2013-01-07 07:16:01 PM

redmond24: I was going to start the series when I finished ASOIAF until I heard the original author died and another is picking up the pieces.

I don't feel like I'd be reading true canon if I picked the series up. GRRM says all the time he knows what happens in the end, but not how it happens. I can't imagine we'd be getting the same product Jordan would deliver.

I could be wrong though. If I were reading it since the 90s then I'd get it just for some amount of closure. But I don't think I'll pick it up unless the reviews are really, really good.


Sanderson has done a fantastic job. you should read them.
 
2013-01-07 07:17:42 PM

NobleHam: LockeOak: I stopped reading this series somewhere in book 6 or so when I realized I could open any of the previous books to any random point and I probably wouldn't know what was going on or who half the characters were.

At a certain point you have to accept that you're never going to know who all of the characters are. There are probably around 100 who matter, and 1900 who are interchangeable with other characters of their type (Maiden/Aes Sedai/Two Rivers person/etc.) and therefore don't need to be remembered.

I'm pretty excited. I think Sanderson's been better than Jordan was for his last few books. Book 4's still the best, but 12 and 13 were much better than 7-11. I am a little worried though. After so many years waiting, I dunno that any ending to the series can be satisfying.


I agree, Sanderson has done very well with 12 and 13.

I started reading them at age fourteen on the recommendation of a friend, when there were only 2. He did well, releasing one per year.. Then it stretched to two years, and then three, and my heart knew terror.. RJ would be hit by a bus or something, and I would forever suffer from the literary equivalent of blue balls.

So you know, even if Sanderson grips a little too hard and my orgasm feels a little forced, at least, by the Light, it will be done.

Besides, I about popped at Dumai's Wells, and when Rand cleansed Saidin, and then later when the Aes Sedai finally, grudgingly accept, and then learn to respect men who can Channel as Warders.
 
2013-01-07 07:18:12 PM
People still read that crap?
 
2013-01-07 07:21:06 PM

Dazrin: Smeggy Smurf: Spoiler alert:
sniff, tug braid, smooth dress, sniff

Na, she had her hair chopped off in one of the last two books, so now she just wants to tug on the braid all the time.

redmond24: I was going to start the series when I finished ASOIAF until I heard the original author died and another is picking up the pieces.
I don't feel like I'd be reading true canon if I picked the series up. GRRM says all the time he knows what happens in the end, but not how it happens. I can't imagine we'd be getting the same product Jordan would deliver.
I could be wrong though. If I were reading it since the 90s then I'd get it just for some amount of closure. But I don't think I'll pick it up unless the reviews are really, really good.

Robert Jordan knew his time was nearly up and prepared for it by leaving copious notes. Plus the new author is very good in his own right; the last two books that were penned by Brandon Sanderson have been an improvement over the last few RJ penned books. A big improvement.

I should have my copy tomorrow when I get home. Finally get this series completed and move on.


Sanderson needs to crank out the next Stormlight Archive book soon, The Way of Kings was excellent, had one of the most awesome and surprising endings, and looking forward to finding out more about his entire metaverse as the links are starting to be even clearer.
 
2013-01-07 07:25:54 PM

Boojum2k: Sanderson needs to crank out the next Stormlight Archive book soon, The Way of Kings was excellent, had one of the most awesome and surprising endings, and looking forward to finding out more about his entire metaverse as the links are starting to be even clearer.


THIS!!

My wife might cause a riot if there is no follow up to Alloy of Law soon though.  I love his ability to not only create new magic systems, but put enough thought into them that they become entirely believable within the context of the novel.
 
2013-01-07 07:31:43 PM

haws83: Boojum2k: Sanderson needs to crank out the next Stormlight Archive book soon, The Way of Kings was excellent, had one of the most awesome and surprising endings, and looking forward to finding out more about his entire metaverse as the links are starting to be even clearer.

THIS!!

My wife might cause a riot if there is no follow up to Alloy of Law soon though.  I love his ability to not only create new magic systems, but put enough thought into them that they become entirely believable within the context of the novel.


I full expect the next one to be noir, if not modern.
 
2013-01-07 07:32:11 PM
And let's see...it'll turn out that since unraveling a weave both (a) removes traces that it existed and (b) seems to interfere with future weaving in that area, we'll end up with an ending that involves removing the seals to "clear the way", then unraveling the original weave the formed the Bore. This has the impact of launching the next Age in which we know no magic exists, and explains why the Bore doesn't exist or appear to have existed when it's formed anew on the next spin of the Wheel.
 
2013-01-07 07:32:27 PM
Couldn't get past book 7. The female characters were whining annoying harpies, the males were whining annoying duds.
 
2013-01-07 07:34:08 PM
I was going to adamantly refuse to purchase this until they released it on kindle.
but I know what is going to happen tomorrow afternoon....
 
2013-01-07 07:35:00 PM

YouWinAgainGravity: I've read a lot of the spoilers and if you've been waiting years and years for this book and the ending let me just say, prepare to be disappointed.


Rand reaches to the top of the Tower and then realizes he forgot the Horn?
 
2013-01-07 07:40:30 PM
Started reading the series in 9th grade, about 13 years ago. Since then, I read the entire series (at least, what's available) about once a year. On the whole it's damn good, even if there are some serious bad spots that are like a chore to get through.
 
2013-01-07 07:42:05 PM

erewhon: And let's see...it'll turn out that since unraveling a weave both (a) removes traces that it existed and (b) seems to interfere with future weaving in that area, we'll end up with an ending that involves removing the seals to "clear the way", then unraveling the original weave the formed the Bore. This has the impact of launching the next Age in which we know no magic exists, and explains why the Bore doesn't exist or appear to have existed when it's formed anew on the next spin of the Wheel.


Ooh, I like that.
 
2013-01-07 07:45:48 PM

Smeggy Smurf: Spoiler alert:

sniff, tug braid, smooth dress, sniff


You left out "boys and girls just don't understand each other!"
 
2013-01-07 07:46:31 PM
shiat, i owe my wife five bucks...

he actually FINISHED it.

figured he'd milk that money-machine for MORE than a decade...

/quit after book six when he abandoned all semblance of a plot that moved or story momentum, as cheesy as it was, to return to the beginning pace-wise.
//i sent him an incredibly insulting and scornful letter. a month later he died.
///i thought about feeling bad, but i realized that, being a horrible person, the letter i wrote might have been the last one he read before he passed on, and that thought warmed my heart.
 
2013-01-07 07:47:11 PM
Robert Jordan wrote the ending of this book....they are his words not touched by sanderson!
 
2013-01-07 07:48:37 PM
I stopped with the series when the story got insufferably dull and stuck in quicksand and I only really wanted to follow one plot line and that one became the author's domination/spank fantasy. Really don't like how he treated his women.
 
2013-01-07 07:49:31 PM

erewhon: And let's see...it'll turn out that since unraveling a weave both (a) removes traces that it existed and (b) seems to interfere with future weaving in that area, we'll end up with an ending that involves removing the seals to "clear the way", then unraveling the original weave the formed the Bore. This has the impact of launching the next Age in which we know no magic exists, and explains why the Bore doesn't exist or appear to have existed when it's formed anew on the next spin of the Wheel.


Citation needed on the next Age being Power-free. I vaguely remember seeing an outline of the seven Ages somewhere over the years where the 7th age ends with no Power and the 1st Age being one of ignorance. I always took Thom's references to our times in the first book (Lenn and Eagle of Fire, Mosk and Merk, Materese the healer of Ind) as being the first age. Age of Legends being the second, and Third Age being the current timeframe of the books.

Not to mention, Aviendha's vision of the future referenced her kids being able to channel from early childhood instead of just around puberty.
 
2013-01-07 07:50:23 PM

Blues_X: Smeggy Smurf: Spoiler alert:

sniff, tug braid, smooth dress, sniff

You left out "boys and girls just don't understand each other!"


I wish (insert other male character) were here. He understands women.
 
2013-01-07 07:50:26 PM
Some of the stuff in these books really point to the series being a kinky sexual fantasy outlet for RJ. Examples include women controlling other women via a collar and chain, overt lesbianism in school (pillow friends in the Tower, especially with Novices/Apprentices), an arch enemy that kills people by overloading them with feelings of sexual pleasure, a main character that openly declares his love for three women at the same time AND THEY'RE ALL COOL WITH IT.

Besides all that nonsense, it's a pretty good story overall.
 
2013-01-07 07:52:13 PM

had98c: Some of the stuff in these books really point to the series being a kinky sexual fantasy outlet for RJ. Examples include women controlling other women via a collar and chain, overt lesbianism in school (pillow friends in the Tower, especially with Novices/Apprentices), an arch enemy that kills people by overloading them with feelings of sexual pleasure, a main character that openly declares his love for three women at the same time AND THEY'RE ALL COOL WITH IT.

Besides all that nonsense, it's a pretty good story overall.


The polygamy aspect really makes you understand why they got a Mormon to finish the series.
 
2013-01-07 07:52:58 PM
2000 characters. 1500 of them Aes Sedai. 1000 of them who have a name that starts with M.
 
2013-01-07 07:55:54 PM

Handsome B. Wonderful: 2000 characters. 1500 of them Aes Sedai. 1000 of them who have a name that starts with M.


At least it's not the Silmarillion. Good god. Feanor, Finrod Felagund, Finarfin, Fingolfin, Finawcrapigiveupafin!
 
2013-01-07 07:56:32 PM

NobleHam: The polygamy aspect really makes you understand why they got a Mormon to finish the series.


One started it too.
 
2013-01-07 07:57:02 PM
A surprising amount of haters in here.
 
2013-01-07 07:59:01 PM
Amazon delivered my wife's copy this morning.
 
2013-01-07 08:00:19 PM
Of course, I'm going to finish reading AMoL by tomorrow afternoon, so I will then be hungering for my next fix. Hurry up with the next Honor books Weber!
/My relax-and-enjoy reading speed is about a page every six seconds.
 
2013-01-07 08:02:23 PM

Kome: Started reading the series in 9th grade, about 13 years ago. Since then, I read the entire series (at least, what's available) about once a year. On the whole it's damn good, even if there are some serious bad spots that are like a chore to get through.


Yeah. Me too. At this point I literally just know exactly what chapters can be skipped and just skip em, heh. I skip most of Tanchico. I skip everything Perrin related from Faile being kidnapped by the Shaido, until the battle where he rescues her. I find the stuff that's just Whitecloak intrigue with Morgase pretty pointless and boring too. Though the culmination of that, with Galad and the remains of the Whitecloaks going to join Rand and help in the last battle is pretty awesome.

Those are really the big two.
 
2013-01-07 08:02:26 PM

DonkeyDixon:

Not to mention, Aviendha's vision of the future referenced her kids being able to channel from early childhood instead of just around puberty.


Well, you know when she unraveled the gateway near the farm everyone complained about the Power not working right for the rest of the novel.

Since the Bore is a really high powered weave, and it's *sort* of a gateway, and there's no trace of it on the next spin, I'm guessing it's also the way he'll explain a distinct lack of magic during our age.
 
2013-01-07 08:03:06 PM

Fark Griswald: A surprising amount of haters in here.


Mostly just ones spouting troll cliches, who probably haven't read the books, and a couple who'd get lost if Dick and Jane added a third character. I like crunchy crunchy detail.
 
2013-01-07 08:04:19 PM

ModernLuddite: This is why my wife and I have instituted the "don't start reading a series until it's over" rule.

//I want to read "A Game of Thrones" so bad.
///BUT NO.


Started reading A Game of Thrones last month, and I have to say, the whole Song of Ice and Fire series is intimidating.

I have this habit when I'm reading fantasy books, that I have to take my time to get everything, so it'll take me a while to finish the book. This doesn't happen in, say The Dresden Files, or the Iron Druid series, but it did happen when I started the Lord of the Rings series, or The Hobbit.
 
2013-01-07 08:04:33 PM

LockeOak: I stopped reading this series somewhere in book 6 or so when I realized I could open any of the previous books to any random point and I probably wouldn't know what was going on or who half the characters were.


I got past that by rereading all the previous books every time a new one came out.  Even with the release schedule Jordan had, I never got close to the next one before finishing.  I haven't read any past... Knife of Dreams? I think that was the last one at least.  That's where it started getting better.  It was dragging a bit there around book 9.  I remember there were something like three chapters devoted to a two hour ride on horseback.
 
2013-01-07 08:05:33 PM

neongoats: Kome: Started reading the series in 9th grade, about 13 years ago. Since then, I read the entire series (at least, what's available) about once a year. On the whole it's damn good, even if there are some serious bad spots that are like a chore to get through.

Yeah. Me too. At this point I literally just know exactly what chapters can be skipped and just skip em, heh. I skip most of Tanchico. I skip everything Perrin related from Faile being kidnapped by the Shaido, until the battle where he rescues her. I find the stuff that's just Whitecloak intrigue with Morgase pretty pointless and boring too. Though the culmination of that, with Galad and the remains of the Whitecloaks going to join Rand and help in the last battle is pretty awesome.

Those are really the big two.


I can't skip Tanchico cause Moghedien is my favorite character. I'm probably the only person that has her as a favorite but there it is.
 
2013-01-07 08:07:35 PM

erewhon: DonkeyDixon:

Not to mention, Aviendha's vision of the future referenced her kids being able to channel from early childhood instead of just around puberty.

Well, you know when she unraveled the gateway near the farm everyone complained about the Power not working right for the rest of the novel.

Since the Bore is a really high powered weave, and it's *sort* of a gateway, and there's no trace of it on the next spin, I'm guessing it's also the way he'll explain a distinct lack of magic during our age.


The power not working right was because of the use of the Bowl, not Aviendha unraveling her gateway, and the Bore's not a weave, it's the lack of weaves, it's a hole in the pattern. Undoing it's going to require weaving over it to restore the pattern, or someone really powerfully balefiring Lanfear.
 
2013-01-07 08:08:51 PM

Click Click D'oh: People still read that crap?


0-media-cdn.foolz.us

Yes, people do.  Now go away and let the adults converse.
 
2013-01-07 08:10:14 PM

valar_morghulis: Couldn't get past book 7. The female characters were whining annoying harpies, the males were whining annoying duds.


But enough about the Rapeublicans

/rimshot
 
2013-01-07 08:10:41 PM
LOL books.
 
Pud [TotalFark]
2013-01-07 08:12:50 PM

timujin: LockeOak: I stopped reading this series somewhere in book 6 or so when I realized I could open any of the previous books to any random point and I probably wouldn't know what was going on or who half the characters were.

I got past that by rereading all the previous books every time a new one came out.  Even with the release schedule Jordan had, I never got close to the next one before finishing.  I haven't read any past... Knife of Dreams? I think that was the last one at least.  That's where it started getting better.  It was dragging a bit there around book 9.  I remember there were something like three chapters devoted to a two hour ride on horseback.


I had just finished the last 2 books (trust me, they're worth the time)  of the series, and started the series over again waiting for the last one to come out. Up to The Lord of Chaos so far. Now I have to decide if I just want to skip ahead to the last book, or stay the course ....dammit
 
2013-01-07 08:12:52 PM

had98c: I can't skip Tanchico cause Moghedien is my favorite character. I'm probably the only person that has her as a favorite but there it is.


I can't skip it because I always wind up singing "Huntin' the Black Ajah in Tanchico Bay" to that Montego Bay tune.
 
2013-01-07 08:14:10 PM

erewhon: DonkeyDixon:

Not to mention, Aviendha's vision of the future referenced her kids being able to channel from early childhood instead of just around puberty.

Well, you know when she unraveled the gateway near the farm everyone complained about the Power not working right for the rest of the novel.

Since the Bore is a really high powered weave, and it's *sort* of a gateway, and there's no trace of it on the next spin, I'm guessing it's also the way he'll explain a distinct lack of magic during our age.


Who is to say that "our" age is the age that follows the events in the books?

I don't think RJ was planning to permakill his literary universe by killing off the magic system. he wasn't dying for most of the series after all.

But we're he to want to, I think a more likely route would be making the whole world a stedding, or Far Madding style artificial stedding. And several ages later, the rediscovery of the power would be mankind finding and breaking the ter'angreal, or whatever and rediscovering the power.
 
2013-01-07 08:14:25 PM

Pud: timujin: LockeOak: I stopped reading this series somewhere in book 6 or so when I realized I could open any of the previous books to any random point and I probably wouldn't know what was going on or who half the characters were.

I got past that by rereading all the previous books every time a new one came out.  Even with the release schedule Jordan had, I never got close to the next one before finishing.  I haven't read any past... Knife of Dreams? I think that was the last one at least.  That's where it started getting better.  It was dragging a bit there around book 9.  I remember there were something like three chapters devoted to a two hour ride on horseback.

I had just finished the last 2 books (trust me, they're worth the time)  of the series, and started the series over again waiting for the last one to come out. Up to The Lord of Chaos so far. Now I have to decide if I just want to skip ahead to the last book, or stay the course ....dammit


Finish Lord of Chaos, then skip to AMoL. Lord of Chaos is always worth another read.
 
2013-01-07 08:18:08 PM

had98c: Some of the stuff in these books really point to the series being a kinky sexual fantasy outlet for RJ. Examples include women controlling other women via a collar and chain, overt lesbianism in school (pillow friends in the Tower, especially with Novices/Apprentices), an arch enemy that kills people by overloading them with feelings of sexual pleasure, a main character that openly declares his love for three women at the same time AND THEY'RE ALL COOL WITH IT.

Besides all that nonsense, it's a pretty good story overall.


Then I recommend you never read the Sword of Truth books by Terry Goodkind.
 
2013-01-07 08:18:36 PM

Pud: timujin: LockeOak: I stopped reading this series somewhere in book 6 or so when I realized I could open any of the previous books to any random point and I probably wouldn't know what was going on or who half the characters were.

I got past that by rereading all the previous books every time a new one came out. Even with the release schedule Jordan had, I never got close to the next one before finishing. I haven't read any past... Knife of Dreams? I think that was the last one at least. That's where it started getting better. It was dragging a bit there around book 9. I remember there were something like three chapters devoted to a two hour ride on horseback.

I had just finished the last 2 books (trust me, they're worth the time) of the series, and started the series over again waiting for the last one to come out. Up to The Lord of Chaos so far. Now I have to decide if I just want to skip ahead to the last book, or stay the course ....dammit


Yeah, my plan has been to wait until it was officially finished, then do one more full reading.  Guess it's time to start, I just have to dig out my books.  I moved a while back and haven't put my shelves up, so they're all in boxes. Unloading them is almost as daunting a task as reading the series.
 
2013-01-07 08:21:20 PM

Kome: Started reading the series in 9th grade, about 13 years ago. Since then, I read the entire series (at least, what's available) about once a year. On the whole it's damn good, even if there are some serious bad spots that are like a chore to get through.


The entire 10th book, for instance.
 
2013-01-07 08:23:23 PM

NobleHam: erewhon: DonkeyDixon:

Not to mention, Aviendha's vision of the future referenced her kids being able to channel from early childhood instead of just around puberty.

Well, you know when she unraveled the gateway near the farm everyone complained about the Power not working right for the rest of the novel.

Since the Bore is a really high powered weave, and it's *sort* of a gateway, and there's no trace of it on the next spin, I'm guessing it's also the way he'll explain a distinct lack of magic during our age.

The power not working right was because of the use of the Bowl, not Aviendha unraveling her gateway, and the Bore's not a weave, it's the lack of weaves, it's a hole in the pattern. Undoing it's going to require weaving over it to restore the pattern, or someone really powerfully balefiring Lanfear.


No, nein, incorrect. The power doesn't work right there because she failed to unravel the weave for the gateway correctly. They even discuss that you can have nothing happen, an explosion, or burn out everyone close by. It's why they talk about the Aiel Wise Ones practicing on puffs of air.

Also, if you read fast enough, you can just visualize the scene better with callbacks to common turns of phrases he uses for describing the actions of people involved. At least, that's how it works for me. So the repetition of braid tugging and what not never really bothered me.
 
2013-01-07 08:23:43 PM
People read past book 5? Halfway through number six, and I was reading a paragraph about some woman, and it occurred to me that I had no idea who this was. I just put the book down and never looked back. I have the feeling that Game of Thrones will be the same way.
 
2013-01-07 08:24:13 PM
Oh, also, it was Elayne that failed to unravel the gateway correctly, when they left the farm after using the Bowl of Winds.
 
2013-01-07 08:27:35 PM

Boojum2k: Fark Griswald: A surprising amount of haters in here.

Mostly just ones spouting troll cliches, who probably haven't read the books, and a couple who'd get lost if Dick and Jane added a third character. I like crunchy crunchy detail.


I know but I guess I didn't think it was worth this amount of trolling. I like the series and I'm going to pick up and read AMOL tomorrow. To each there own I suppose.
 
2013-01-07 08:30:23 PM

Zafler: NobleHam: erewhon: DonkeyDixon:

Not to mention, Aviendha's vision of the future referenced her kids being able to channel from early childhood instead of just around puberty.

Well, you know when she unraveled the gateway near the farm everyone complained about the Power not working right for the rest of the novel.

Since the Bore is a really high powered weave, and it's *sort* of a gateway, and there's no trace of it on the next spin, I'm guessing it's also the way he'll explain a distinct lack of magic during our age.

The power not working right was because of the use of the Bowl, not Aviendha unraveling her gateway, and the Bore's not a weave, it's the lack of weaves, it's a hole in the pattern. Undoing it's going to require weaving over it to restore the pattern, or someone really powerfully balefiring Lanfear.

No, nein, incorrect. The power doesn't work right there because she failed to unravel the weave for the gateway correctly. They even discuss that you can have nothing happen, an explosion, or burn out everyone close by. It's why they talk about the Aiel Wise Ones practicing on puffs of air.

Also, if you read fast enough, you can just visualize the scene better with callbacks to common turns of phrases he uses for describing the actions of people involved. At least, that's how it works for me. So the repetition of braid tugging and what not never really bothered me.


Except that Robert Jordan confirmed it was the Bowl, not the unraveling. (New Window)
 
2013-01-07 08:31:58 PM

LockeOak: I stopped reading this series somewhere in book 6 or so when I realized I could open any of the previous books to any random point and I probably wouldn't know what was going on or who half the characters were.


Strange. I don't remember posting this, but I think I posted it.
 
2013-01-07 08:32:27 PM
People read past book 5? Halfway through number six, and I was reading a paragraph about some woman, and it occurred to me that I had no idea who this was. I just put the book down and never looked back. I have the feeling that Game of Thrones will be the same way.

Pretty much. Try Guy Gavriel Kay, who seems to know how to finish a fantasy story in a book or two.
 
2013-01-07 08:37:57 PM

NobleHam:
The power not working right was because of the use of the Bowl, not Aviendha unraveling her gateway, and the Bore's not a weave, it's the lack of weaves, it's a hole in the pattern. Undoing it's going to require weaving over it to restore the pattern, or someone really powerfully balefiring Lanfear.


No, Lanfear and Unnamed Throwaway Character wove it, as seen during the Exposition Machine sequence in book three, IIRC. Nice touch, that.

Although you're right in that they didn't say exactly HOW it was done, but the implication was that it was a weave.
 
2013-01-07 08:39:35 PM
Oh, and the unraveling and the use of the Bowl were back-to-back, don't have the books here, but I dimly recall that the funkiness of the Power was being hinted at after the nuclear blast when the gate collapsed, before the Bowl.
 
2013-01-07 08:41:34 PM

NobleHam: Except that Robert Jordan confirmed it was the Bowl, not the unraveling. (New Window)


I stand corrected and completely bemused, since there was no evidence of it being the bowls usage in the novel. The only thing that could possibly give evidence of that being the case was one of the Forsaken being shocked they'd try it on a global basis. Also, why didn't he include places along those spokes that were having wonkiness? Even the battle between Rand and the Seanchan were in the vicinity of where the bowl was used.
 
2013-01-07 08:42:58 PM

erewhon: Oh, and the unraveling and the use of the Bowl were back-to-back, don't have the books here, but I dimly recall that the funkiness of the Power was being hinted at after the nuclear blast when the gate collapsed, before the Bowl.


You've got the order reversed. The funkiness appeared after the Bowl was used, before the failed unraveling.

erewhon: NobleHam:
The power not working right was because of the use of the Bowl, not Aviendha unraveling her gateway, and the Bore's not a weave, it's the lack of weaves, it's a hole in the pattern. Undoing it's going to require weaving over it to restore the pattern, or someone really powerfully balefiring Lanfear.

No, Lanfear and Unnamed Throwaway Character wove it, as seen during the Exposition Machine sequence in book three, IIRC. Nice touch, that.

Although you're right in that they didn't say exactly HOW it was done, but the implication was that it was a weave.


I'm sure a weave was used to create it, thus how balefiring Lanfear into oblivion might undo it, but the bore itself isn't a weave, it's a holed bored in the pattern. If you drill a hole in a wall, the drill bit isn't part of the hole.
 
2013-01-07 08:45:31 PM

Zafler: NobleHam: Except that Robert Jordan confirmed it was the Bowl, not the unraveling. (New Window)

I stand corrected and completely bemused, since there was no evidence of it being the bowls usage in the novel. The only thing that could possibly give evidence of that being the case was one of the Forsaken being shocked they'd try it on a global basis. Also, why didn't he include places along those spokes that were having wonkiness? Even the battle between Rand and the Seanchan were in the vicinity of where the bowl was used.


There was power wonkiness in the Rand/Seanchan battle. Several of the Asha'man complained that their weaves weren't working properly. And I thought Perrin's channelers also complained about the weirdness, and we know they were on one of the spokes. I don't recall ever thinking it was anything other than the Bowl that caused it, but apparently there was enough confusion for RJ to clarify.
 
2013-01-07 08:47:37 PM

NobleHam:

You've got the order reversed. The funkiness appeared after the Bowl was used, before the failed unraveling.


Quite possible, I haven't read it for maybe 10 years.



I'm sure a weave was used to create it, thus how balefiring Lanfear into oblivion might undo it, but the bore itself isn't a weave, it's a holed bored in the pattern. If you drill a hole in a wall, the drill bit isn't part of the hole.


I'm thinking there was a two-parter, a drilled hole and a liner weave that holds it open. There was, IIRC, again from many ages ago when I read the thing and its bits and pieces of out-of-novel content, some implication that LTT and company had sealed the bore by hooking the Seals onto the weave holding the Bore open, not being able to close it without a female to fix the thing properly.
 
2013-01-07 08:52:40 PM
Not that the series is bad or anything, I rather enjoyed reading most of it (aside from the ridiculous, almost cartoonish "how not to write" pacing problems from books 6 to 9 or so), but still, this must be commented on:

think Game of Thrones but more so: more characters, more magic, more tiny little world-building details, more everything.

Ha, ha, no. Significantly less of all those things with the exception of magic. And the magic really didn't get ramped up until book 4 or 5 of Wheel of Time, which is the same point at which it's getting ramped up in Game of Thrones, so that's not really the case either.

kertus: LockeOak: I stopped reading this series somewhere in book 6 or so when I realized I could open any of the previous books to any random point and I probably wouldn't know what was going on or who half the characters were.

Strange. I don't remember posting this, but I think I posted it.


It was a repeat post, so the mods balefired it (or converted its mass to the tachyonic state, if you're more an Alastair Reynolds fan).
 
2013-01-07 08:52:47 PM

NobleHam: There was power wonkiness in the Rand/Seanchan battle. Several of the Asha'man complained that their weaves weren't working properly. And I thought Perrin's channelers also complained about the weirdness, and we know they were on one of the spokes. I don't recall ever thinking it was anything other than the Bowl that caused it, but apparently there was enough confusion for RJ to clarify.


That battle took place close enough to Ebou Dar to be in range of the wonkiness, since the farm was outside Ebou Dar in the direction of the battle. Hence why they were wondering why there was problems here and not back in the mountains.

Perrin's Wise Ones just saw the initial weaving passing nearby, and were afraid because of the scope and, as I recall, it twisting around something unseen. No mention of wonkiness in the power itself for them.
 
2013-01-07 09:04:22 PM

neongoats: Who is to say that "our" age is the age that follows the events in the books?

I don't think RJ was planning to permakill his literary universe by killing off the magic system. he wasn't dying for most of the series after all.


Agreed. Not to mention our times being referenced in Eye of the World. If those were from a prior turning of the Wheel through the First Age, you'd be looking at about 50,000 years give or take, and the memories of the memories of the myths of those legends would have been long forgotten.
 
2013-01-07 09:05:03 PM
I don't know what I will do, I will most likely have to pirate it as I live in Thailand and buy the paperback when it comes out and have it sent to family in the US, as I have the rest in paperback form. But it's been so long I almost want to reread the rest of the books first...

/Save some time and skip all chapters about Perrin
 
2013-01-07 09:09:06 PM

blackartemis: /Save some time and skip all chapters about Perrin


So much THIS. Was my favorite character through Shadow Rising. The way he and Faile were mishandled after that has left me hoping he's the one main character who dies.
 
2013-01-07 09:20:06 PM

DonkeyDixon: blackartemis: /Save some time and skip all chapters about Perrin

So much THIS. Was my favorite character through Shadow Rising. The way he and Faile were mishandled after that has left me hoping he's the one main character who dies.


How dare you. Thor/Perrin is the BEST character in the series. Shut your whore mouth.
 
2013-01-07 09:20:33 PM
So no ebook version until April? WTF. It's money-grab shiat like this that makes otherwise decent guys like me figure out alternatives.

I'll effing pay what ever the price is but I don't want a hard cover copy, I want an ebook. No reason they can't release both at the same time just like every other damn publisher now days.
 
2013-01-07 09:25:17 PM

erewhon: DonkeyDixon: blackartemis: /Save some time and skip all chapters about Perrin

So much THIS. Was my favorite character through Shadow Rising. The way he and Faile were mishandled after that has left me hoping he's the one main character who dies.

How dare you. Thor/Perrin is the BEST character in the series. Shut your whore mouth.


Perrin would be a lot better if he'd hooked up with Berelain instead.
 
2013-01-07 09:28:32 PM
After reading the last two books I really wish Robert Jordan would have collaborated with someone else on this series, or at least have had an editor that was not his wife.
 
2013-01-07 09:29:06 PM

had98c:

Perrin would be a lot better if he'd hooked up with Berelain instead.


Or both - the prophecy had him taming both birds, dinnit?

He's a big boy, ought to be able to handle them both in a threesome...yeah...sorry, what were we talking about?
 
2013-01-07 09:35:40 PM

r1niceboy: People read past book 5? Halfway through number six, and I was reading a paragraph about some woman, and it occurred to me that I had no idea who this was. I just put the book down and never looked back. I have the feeling that Game of Thrones will be the same way.


I felt the same about the Wheel of Time, which I put down maybe 10 years ago. I can remember most of the plot and characters of Game of Thrones despite not having reading the books in the past 5 years or seeing the TV show. Even after reading this thread my memories of the Wheel of Time are just a mash of homogenous names, glacial plotting, minimal character development and battles that are half a step above Dragonball Z.
 
2013-01-07 09:39:31 PM

erewhon: had98c:

Perrin would be a lot better if he'd hooked up with Berelain instead.

Or both - the prophecy had him taming both birds, dinnit?

He's a big boy, ought to be able to handle them both in a threesome...yeah...sorry, what were we talking about?


Why should Rand have all the luck? Mat might want to be careful about suggesting it to his wife though.
 
2013-01-07 09:43:51 PM

erewhon: DonkeyDixon: blackartemis: /Save some time and skip all chapters about Perrin

So much THIS. Was my favorite character through Shadow Rising. The way he and Faile were mishandled after that has left me hoping he's the one main character who dies.

How dare you. Thor/Perrin is the BEST character in the series. Shut your whore mouth.


Lanfear is best character.
 
2013-01-07 09:45:20 PM

there their theyre: erewhon: DonkeyDixon: blackartemis: /Save some time and skip all chapters about Perrin

So much THIS. Was my favorite character through Shadow Rising. The way he and Faile were mishandled after that has left me hoping he's the one main character who dies.

How dare you. Thor/Perrin is the BEST character in the series. Shut your whore mouth.

Lanfear is best character.


Thom.
 
2013-01-07 09:45:20 PM

Boojum2k:
Why should Rand have all the luck? Mat might want to be careful about suggesting it to his wife though.


Eh, maybe at the end they get together, have one of those team parties that start off halfway normal and morph into the sort of thing no one can mention later. Tough to believe that you've got all these magic users, and there's little to no sex magic going on. Seriously - the first thing we use technology for is porn, you can't tell me you can alter reality and that's not the first use of it.

The culture seems a bit prudish, though.
 
2013-01-07 09:47:11 PM

Boojum2k: there their theyre: erewhon: DonkeyDixon: blackartemis: /Save some time and skip all chapters about Perrin

So much THIS. Was my favorite character through Shadow Rising. The way he and Faile were mishandled after that has left me hoping he's the one main character who dies.

How dare you. Thor/Perrin is the BEST character in the series. Shut your whore mouth.

Lanfear is best character.

Thom.


I had sort of hoped Thom would out himself as being able to weave at some point, but I guess not. Still holding out on the horse being some sort of magic user, Bella, wasn't it?
 
2013-01-07 09:50:58 PM
I switched to audio books a while back and never looked back. Got mine preordered and ready from audible.com cheaper than a hardcover book.

Been with this series since the 3rd book around 7th grade.

Crossroads of Twilight (book 10) just about stopped me from wanting to finish it though. Anyone just starting with the series should just skip that entire book... you wont miss anything.

oh, and my only wish is that Perrin dies horribly... even though it seems he is done being a whiny little biatch.
 
2013-01-07 09:55:29 PM

erewhon: Boojum2k:
Why should Rand have all the luck? Mat might want to be careful about suggesting it to his wife though.

Eh, maybe at the end they get together, have one of those team parties that start off halfway normal and morph into the sort of thing no one can mention later. Tough to believe that you've got all these magic users, and there's little to no sex magic going on. Seriously - the first thing we use technology for is porn, you can't tell me you can alter reality and that's not the first use of it.

The culture seems a bit prudish, though.


Semihirage uses sex magic as a torture device, so it exists, just very much on the wrong side.
Also the terangreal dildo that turned up a while back.
No telling what various Aes Sedai have come up with either.
 
2013-01-07 10:03:14 PM
15 years too late. Meanwhile, Erikson put out a more compelling series with 10 books in about 11 years.

/take note GRRM
 
2013-01-07 10:05:31 PM

raidersofthelostfark: People read past book 5? Halfway through number six, and I was reading a paragraph about some woman, and it occurred to me that I had no idea who this was. I just put the book down and never looked back. I have the feeling that Game of Thrones will be the same way.

Pretty much. Try Guy Gavriel Kay, who seems to know how to finish a fantasy story in a book or two.


Kay does that, but I find that he leaves too much on the table by not expanding. The Lions of Al-Rassan may be the best standalone fantasy novel written, but I wish there was more than that.
 
2013-01-07 10:06:03 PM

NobleHam: erewhon: Oh, and the unraveling and the use of the Bowl were back-to-back, don't have the books here, but I dimly recall that the funkiness of the Power was being hinted at after the nuclear blast when the gate collapsed, before the Bowl.

You've got the order reversed. The funkiness appeared after the Bowl was used, before the failed unraveling.

erewhon: NobleHam:
The power not working right was because of the use of the Bowl, not Aviendha unraveling her gateway, and the Bore's not a weave, it's the lack of weaves, it's a hole in the pattern. Undoing it's going to require weaving over it to restore the pattern, or someone really powerfully balefiring Lanfear.

No, Lanfear and Unnamed Throwaway Character wove it, as seen during the Exposition Machine sequence in book three, IIRC. Nice touch, that.

Although you're right in that they didn't say exactly HOW it was done, but the implication was that it was a weave.

I'm sure a weave was used to create it, thus how balefiring Lanfear into oblivion might undo it, but the bore itself isn't a weave, it's a holed bored in the pattern. If you drill a hole in a wall, the drill bit isn't part of the hole.


It would undo it, but balefiring Lanfear all the way back to when she drilled the bore, if you could even make balefire strong enough, would likely unravel the pattern. Everything post bore-drilling would be undone, so the whole war that followed, collapse, etc. Pretty sure all of existence would unravel if you tried it, which is why none one did it during the War.
 
2013-01-07 10:06:45 PM

Boojum2k:
Also the terangreal dildo that turned up a while back.
No telling what various Aes Sedai have come up with either.


Sounds like a band. "Ter'angreal Dildo". Or a project name.

Gentlemen, you're hear to be read onto a very secure project - it's called...Ter'angreal Dildo.
 
2013-01-07 10:08:00 PM

erewhon: Boojum2k:
Also the terangreal dildo that turned up a while back.
No telling what various Aes Sedai have come up with either.

Sounds like a band. "Ter'angreal Dildo". Or a project name.

Gentlemen, you're hear to be read onto a very secure project - it's called...Ter'angreal Dildo.


Geez, you can tell I'm tired. /hear/here
 
2013-01-07 10:08:36 PM

bhcompy: 15 years too late. Meanwhile, Erikson put out a more compelling series with 10 books in about 11 years.

/take note GRRM


The Malazan books do kick serious ass.
 
2013-01-07 10:12:07 PM

entropic_existence: bhcompy: 15 years too late. Meanwhile, Erikson put out a more compelling series with 10 books in about 11 years.

/take note GRRM

The Malazan books do kick serious ass.


It's between that and Amber as to which is my favorite series, though the Malazan books has the best character dialogue/interaction I've read
 
2013-01-07 10:12:31 PM

erewhon: Boojum2k:
Also the terangreal dildo that turned up a while back.
No telling what various Aes Sedai have come up with either.

Sounds like a band. "Ter'angreal Dildo". Or a project name.

Gentlemen, you're hear to be read onto a very secure project - it's called...Ter'angreal Dildo.


As soon as you mentioned that, I thought of it as a song, to the turn of "Detachable Penis". . .
 
2013-01-07 10:15:20 PM
Tune. Autocorrect sucks.
 
2013-01-07 10:18:08 PM
Damnit, I want to get this book so badly but I'm currently reading The Night Angel Trilogy, and only on book one. I know if I do get it, it will be sitting there, saying 'Read me', 'Put down that trilogy' and I'll be all 'No, must resist temptation. Must finish this series first'.
 
2013-01-07 10:48:11 PM

gadian: I stopped with the series when the story got insufferably dull and stuck in quicksand and I only really wanted to follow one plot line and that one became the author's domination/spank fantasy. Really don't like how he treated his women.


I think you're confusing the Wheel of Time with the Sword of Truth. It's pretty easy to do. Just remember: the Wheel of Time is full of Rand al'Thor and awkward polygamy, while the Sword of Truth is full of Ayn Rand and awkward BDSM.
 
2013-01-07 10:50:11 PM

Jclark666: while the Sword of Truth is full of Ayn Rand and awkward BDSM.


And raep, lots and lots of raep.
 
2013-01-07 10:53:21 PM

had98c: Handsome B. Wonderful: 2000 characters. 1500 of them Aes Sedai. 1000 of them who have a name that starts with M.

At least it's not the Silmarillion. Good god. Feanor, Finrod Felagund, Finarfin, Fingolfin, Finawcrapigiveupafin!


I know. Sometimes, I get confused by the names Frank, Fred, Feris, Fenton, and Finn. It's all like, "You mean I have to pay attention to more than just the first three letters? Fark that! I don't have time for that crap!"
 
2013-01-07 11:01:49 PM

divZero: So no ebook version until April? WTF. It's money-grab shiat like this that makes otherwise decent guys like me figure out alternatives lets me justify stealing it instead.

No reason they can't release both at the same time just like every other damn publisher now days.


No reason they should have to satisfy your impatience/demands, either.
 
2013-01-07 11:17:33 PM
Welp, I reckon it's time to whip out the Eye of the World. I decide about 5 years ago that I'd not read any more till it's done, so I can read it all at once and not forget everything. I
 
2013-01-07 11:36:55 PM
I started this series when I had a job where I could listen to audiobooks all day. It was maybe the most painful series to get through. I blame the guy they chose to read the series, though. The story was good, if convoluted. The reading was terrible.Think I got through two complete books.
 
2013-01-07 11:41:58 PM
I was up way too late the other night reading through endless blogs and literary reviews trying to figure out what the big deal is with this series. I have a couple of friends that are obsessed with it, and this book in particular, but they've never been able to explain what they like about it, or even what it's about. Other than "fantasy" or "it's like Lord of the Rings but not".

And that troubles me, because I grew up reading fantasy, and these friends otherwise have the same taste in books as I do.
 
2013-01-07 11:43:51 PM

texdent: Jclark666: while the Sword of Truth is full of Ayn Rand and awkward BDSM.

And raep, lots and lots of raep.


Personally my favorite scene was when Kahlan sucked her period blood off her husband's dick, while thinking it was his brother. Between that, and the rats chewing in to Cara's stomach, Temple of the Winds was memorable indeed
 
2013-01-07 11:45:23 PM
This is my favorite series. I have reread the series numerous times cover to cover, up to whichever book had recently been released. It is the series by which I judge all others.

I cannot wait to read the final book, I cannot wait to see a conclusion to Jordan's vision, and I cannot wait to see the final chapter he wrote.

/RAFO, RAFO.
 
2013-01-07 11:46:55 PM

DonkeyDixon: neongoats: Who is to say that "our" age is the age that follows the events in the books?

I don't think RJ was planning to permakill his literary universe by killing off the magic system. he wasn't dying for most of the series after all.

Agreed. Not to mention our times being referenced in Eye of the World. If those were from a prior turning of the Wheel through the First Age, you'd be looking at about 50,000 years give or take, and the memories of the memories of the myths of those legends would have been long forgotten.


I still think our age was not the First Age as people like to claim.  I think we are the one just before it as the portal stones are from there and they are surely magical.  Plus the ties to our time look ultra mythic, not as close as I think it should.

On another note, I read this (starting in 1990) and trudged up to Book 11, which was the first book I've just put down and said "I can't read this crap anymore, I think only one day passed in this 900 pages."  Since I've heard good things about Sanderson I'm rereading the series but I am not looking forward to a few of them.
 
2013-01-07 11:49:56 PM
Worst crap I've ever read. It embarrasses me to admit I even know the material, let alone read 5 of the books after having gone through the first one in county jail, where options were limited. I'm the type of guy who likes to finish what he started, and have read some horrible books because of that, but that's still no excuse for me to have made it so far in that series.
 
2013-01-07 11:51:54 PM
Sadly, there are zillions of people who will believe that this is a Wheel of Time book and pay good money for what is essentially just authorized fanfic. The only difference between what you'll get in this book and what you can find at http://www.fanfiction.net/forums/book/Wheel-of-Time/ is that the book will have more editing.

Regardless, that doesn't make it a Wheel of Time book. Dress it up all you want. Get the son/nephew/assistant/whoever to write it. Base it on some notes you dug out of Grampa's writing desk. It's still just fan fiction, with maybe a little editing and some tenuous tie to the original author.
 
2013-01-07 11:55:45 PM

tillerman35: Sadly, there are zillions of people who will believe that this is a Wheel of Time book and pay good money for what is essentially just authorized fanfic. The only difference between what you'll get in this book and what you can find at http://www.fanfiction.net/forums/book/Wheel-of-Time/ is that the book will have more editing.

Regardless, that doesn't make it a Wheel of Time book. Dress it up all you want. Get the son/nephew/assistant/whoever to write it. Base it on some notes you dug out of Grampa's writing desk. It's still just fan fiction, with maybe a little editing and some tenuous tie to the original author.


Sanderson is a better writer than Jordan and has imagination on par with Jordan(Jordan's primary strength).
 
2013-01-07 11:59:24 PM

swahnhennessy: Worst crap I've ever read. It embarrasses me to admit I even know the material, let alone read 5 of the books after having gone through the first one in county jail, where options were limited. I'm the type of guy who likes to finish what he started, and have read some horrible books because of that, but that's still no excuse for me to have made it so far in that series.


I don't know which direction to take in flaming you over this, so I'm just going to point and laugh at you for being a jailbird.
 
2013-01-08 12:01:13 AM

bhcompy:
Sanderson is a better writer than Jordan and has imagination on par with Jordan(Jordan's primary strength).


So he's a really GOOD fan fiction author. It still doesn't change the fact that he's ripping off a dead guy's life's work. There are a good authors on www.fanfiction.net too. Maybe he should contribute to the Harry Potter forum. If he's into the erotic stuff, he could even do a mash-up and have Hermione Granger do a four-way with Rand al'Thor, Perrin Aybara, and Matrim Cauthon.
 
2013-01-08 12:10:35 AM

tillerman35: bhcompy:
Sanderson is a better writer than Jordan and has imagination on par with Jordan(Jordan's primary strength).

So he's a really GOOD fan fiction author. It still doesn't change the fact that he's ripping off a dead guy's life's work. There are a good authors on www.fanfiction.net too. Maybe he should contribute to the Harry Potter forum. If he's into the erotic stuff, he could even do a mash-up and have Hermione Granger do a four-way with Rand al'Thor, Perrin Aybara, and Matrim Cauthon.


So, explicitly chosen by the now dead guy and his wife/editor to complete a long running series, literally his life's work, is "ripping him off"? You realize that Robert Jordan literally spent the last months of his life explicitly planning, writing, organizing and basically rough drafting the conclusion to his series so that Sanderson could finish it, right?

Troll.
 
2013-01-08 12:10:40 AM

neongoats: swahnhennessy: Worst crap I've ever read. It embarrasses me to admit I even know the material, let alone read 5 of the books after having gone through the first one in county jail, where options were limited. I'm the type of guy who likes to finish what he started, and have read some horrible books because of that, but that's still no excuse for me to have made it so far in that series.

I don't know which direction to take in flaming you over this, so I'm just going to point and laugh at you for being a jailbird.


I don't know if I'd pick a fight with an ex-con who has the patience to read five Robert Jordan crap-fests. That's Batman-villain material.
 
2013-01-08 12:21:50 AM

HotWingAgenda: I was up way too late the other night reading through endless blogs and literary reviews trying to figure out what the big deal is with this series. I have a couple of friends that are obsessed with it, and this book in particular, but they've never been able to explain what they like about it, or even what it's about. Other than "fantasy" or "it's like Lord of the Rings but not".

And that troubles me, because I grew up reading fantasy, and these friends otherwise have the same taste in books as I do.


Primarily nostalgia. Remember, the first book came out in 1990 or so. If you remember what high fantasy written in the '70s/'80s was like, which I know you do because no fantasy reader reads exclusively new shiat, you'll maybe realize what a relief it was to finally get a book that took the material seriously, but wasn't particularly pretentious, whereas even bad sci-fi was more legitimate as actual literature than even good fantasy beforehand.

Basically fantasy in the decade leading up to WoT was either hopelessly pretentious, outright comedy, or written entirely for the purpose of setting up a new scene to spray-paint on the side of someone's van. WoT was, at the time, something of a breath of fresh air in the genre, though once people realized they were allowed to do real stories with it again, it was rapidly dethroned as the new king of the genre.

And people are going to read the last one because, hell, they've gone through all the shiat books between 5 and where sanderson took over, and then like 4 more, so no reason to stop now.

... that help at all?
 
2013-01-08 12:27:27 AM

Jim_Callahan: HotWingAgenda: I was up way too late the other night reading through endless blogs and literary reviews trying to figure out what the big deal is with this series. I have a couple of friends that are obsessed with it, and this book in particular, but they've never been able to explain what they like about it, or even what it's about. Other than "fantasy" or "it's like Lord of the Rings but not".

And that troubles me, because I grew up reading fantasy, and these friends otherwise have the same taste in books as I do.

Primarily nostalgia. Remember, the first book came out in 1990 or so. If you remember what high fantasy written in the '70s/'80s was like, which I know you do because no fantasy reader reads exclusively new shiat, you'll maybe realize what a relief it was to finally get a book that took the material seriously, but wasn't particularly pretentious, whereas even bad sci-fi was more legitimate as actual literature than even good fantasy beforehand.

Basically fantasy in the decade leading up to WoT was either hopelessly pretentious, outright comedy, or written entirely for the purpose of setting up a new scene to spray-paint on the side of someone's van. WoT was, at the time, something of a breath of fresh air in the genre, though once people realized they were allowed to do real stories with it again, it was rapidly dethroned as the new king of the genre.

And people are going to read the last one because, hell, they've gone through all the shiat books between 5 and where sanderson took over, and then like 4 more, so no reason to stop now.

... that help at all?


What, you never heard of Zelazny? Cook? Kay?
 
2013-01-08 12:30:24 AM

DarkLancelot: DonkeyDixon: neongoats: Who is to say that "our" age is the age that follows the events in the books?

I don't think RJ was planning to permakill his literary universe by killing off the magic system. he wasn't dying for most of the series after all.

Agreed. Not to mention our times being referenced in Eye of the World. If those were from a prior turning of the Wheel through the First Age, you'd be looking at about 50,000 years give or take, and the memories of the memories of the myths of those legends would have been long forgotten.

I still think our age was not the First Age as people like to claim.  I think we are the one just before it as the portal stones are from there and they are surely magical.  Plus the ties to our time look ultra mythic, not as close as I think it should.

On another note, I read this (starting in 1990) and trudged up to Book 11, which was the first book I've just put down and said "I can't read this crap anymore, I think only one day passed in this 900 pages."  Since I've heard good things about Sanderson I'm rereading the series but I am not looking forward to a few of them.


Well, "Tamyrlin"/Merlin was supposedly the first magic user. I dunno if that's canon or not. I think we should assume the Second Age was really long though.

As for your second paragraph, I think you mean Book 10. That one was awful, and yes, took place pretty much in a single day with absolutely nothing of importance happening, except maybe some crap in Elayne's storyline--which is forgettable and went on way too long. 11 actually started to get good again, then he died, and 12 and 13 actually are good.
 
2013-01-08 12:30:35 AM

Pud: timujin: LockeOak: I stopped reading this series somewhere in book 6 or so when I realized I could open any of the previous books to any random point and I probably wouldn't know what was going on or who half the characters were.

I got past that by rereading all the previous books every time a new one came out.  Even with the release schedule Jordan had, I never got close to the next one before finishing.  I haven't read any past... Knife of Dreams? I think that was the last one at least.  That's where it started getting better.  It was dragging a bit there around book 9.  I remember there were something like three chapters devoted to a two hour ride on horseback.

I had just finished the last 2 books (trust me, they're worth the time)  of the series, and started the series over again waiting for the last one to come out. Up to The Lord of Chaos so far. Now I have to decide if I just want to skip ahead to the last book, or stay the course ....dammit


I started the series again last April and was working slowly through it since then, just finished book 13 at the end of December, so I am ready to start reading tomorrow when I get home from work!
 
2013-01-08 12:36:20 AM

had98c: Perrin would be a lot better if he'd hooked up with Berelain instead.


You might like Perrin, but he is such a useless character. If he was never in the series, what would we honestly have lost?

I mean, did we really need all that garbage about The Prophet (loved that Sanderson murdered him immediately when he got control of the series)? Or the storyline about him rescuing his wife? The only thing he really adds is the whole wolf thing, and we still don't know exactly how that is going to work in the last fight. That storyline has been stretched out forever and then some.

I like some of the characters and storylines in the series, but Robert Jordan really needed to take a page from GRRM and killed off a bunch of his characters about 10 books ago. Perrin should have been just about the first to go IMO.
 
2013-01-08 12:45:21 AM
all of it to tell the story of a backcountry farm boy who finds out he's the Dragon Reborn, a hero out of prophecies, destined to defeat the Dark One - and probably die doing it.
Really, that's what Wheet of Time is about?  How original.
 
2013-01-08 12:45:41 AM

Krazikarl: had98c: Perrin would be a lot better if he'd hooked up with Berelain instead.

You might like Perrin, but he is such a useless character. If he was never in the series, what would we honestly have lost?

I mean, did we really need all that garbage about The Prophet (loved that Sanderson murdered him immediately when he got control of the series)? Or the storyline about him rescuing his wife? The only thing he really adds is the whole wolf thing, and we still don't know exactly how that is going to work in the last fight. That storyline has been stretched out forever and then some.

I like some of the characters and storylines in the series, but Robert Jordan really needed to take a page from GRRM and killed off a bunch of his characters about 10 books ago. Perrin should have been just about the first to go IMO.


I think Perrin needed to survive because all three of the boys are supposed to be important in the end, but I agree his storyline could have been cut a lot. The Prophet could have been dealt with quickly, and the whole Faile getting captured thing shouldn't have happened at all. The Shaido should have been eliminated after Dumai's Wells. About the only potentially useful thing I can think of that came out of the kidnapping crap was Perrin forging ties with the Seanchan.
 
2013-01-08 12:47:57 AM

aerojockey: all of it to tell the story of a backcountry farm boy who finds out he's the Dragon Reborn, a hero out of prophecies, destined to defeat the Dark One - and probably die doing it.Really, that's what Wheet of Time is about?  How original.


Well, that's boiling down a 4,000,000 word series to 35... but yeah, that's the gist of the overall arc.
 
2013-01-08 01:00:06 AM

aerojockey: Really, that's what Wheet of Time is about?  How original.


I don't think that anybody has claimed that the Wheel of Time is very original.

It has the best world creating since Tolkein. But the plot is hardly original, and many of the characters get old after about the first book. You either like the world creating, or you don't enjoy The Wheel of Time one bit.
 
2013-01-08 01:13:28 AM

NobleHam: DarkLancelot: DonkeyDixon: neongoats: Who is to say that "our" age is the age that follows the events in the books?

I don't think RJ was planning to permakill his literary universe by killing off the magic system. he wasn't dying for most of the series after all.

Agreed. Not to mention our times being referenced in Eye of the World. If those were from a prior turning of the Wheel through the First Age, you'd be looking at about 50,000 years give or take, and the memories of the memories of the myths of those legends would have been long forgotten.

I still think our age was not the First Age as people like to claim.  I think we are the one just before it as the portal stones are from there and they are surely magical.  Plus the ties to our time look ultra mythic, not as close as I think it should.

On another note, I read this (starting in 1990) and trudged up to Book 11, which was the first book I've just put down and said "I can't read this crap anymore, I think only one day passed in this 900 pages."  Since I've heard good things about Sanderson I'm rereading the series but I am not looking forward to a few of them.

Well, "Tamyrlin"/Merlin was supposedly the first magic user. I dunno if that's canon or not. I think we should assume the Second Age was really long though.

As for your second paragraph, I think you mean Book 10. That one was awful, and yes, took place pretty much in a single day with absolutely nothing of importance happening, except maybe some crap in Elayne's storyline--which is forgettable and went on way too long. 11 actually started to get good again, then he died, and 12 and 13 actually are good.


Might be Book 10, I just remember it wasn't worth the pain of reading it.  The portal stones still confuse me.  I've been trying to find everything I could about the 1st Age and how it is presented as our time and I don't know how that fits in.  Of course they could have been the result of the birth of magic that shifted us into the 2nd Age or maybe even the cause.
 
2013-01-08 01:14:01 AM

tillerman35: bhcompy:
Sanderson is a better writer than Jordan and has imagination on par with Jordan(Jordan's primary strength).

So he's a really GOOD fan fiction author. It still doesn't change the fact that he's ripping off a dead guy's life's work. There are a good authors on www.fanfiction.net too. Maybe he should contribute to the Harry Potter forum. If he's into the erotic stuff, he could even do a mash-up and have Hermione Granger do a four-way with Rand al'Thor, Perrin Aybara, and Matrim Cauthon.


Don't feed.
 
2013-01-08 01:16:21 AM
Jclark666 I think you're confusing the Wheel of Time with the Sword of Truth. It's pretty easy to do. Just remember: the Wheel of Time is full of Rand al'Thor and awkward polygamy, while the Sword of Truth is full of Ayn Rand and awkward BDSM.

I don't think so. I seem to recall way too many vivid recollections of daily, angry, bare bottomed spankings going on in the tower to believe he didn't have one hand in his trousers as he typed. Then there was the sex torture. And the awkward polygamy. And the sex that the other women could feel because they were joined and the less subtle D/s stuff. I'm glad Moiraine got out of it dead before she had to describe her palace sexscapades and the trench warfare type sex with Lan. By the end of it, I had absolutely no respect for any of the women, though only partly because they had no problem with any of the above. Even the bare bottomed spankings that were oh so cathartic. Especially the bare bottomed spankings. Oh look, another spanking.
 
2013-01-08 01:20:40 AM
DarkLancelot

There is a really good book "The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time" that goes into huge detail about the portal stones and the first age, it's technology and how that technology affects events throughout the series, like the actual Amyrlin seat, the White Tower, etc.
 
2013-01-08 01:21:58 AM

gadian: DarkLancelot

There is a really good book "The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time" that goes into huge detail about the portal stones and the first age, it's technology and how that technology affects events throughout the series, like the actual Amyrlin seat, the White Tower, etc.


I had that before I lost all my stuff.  It is on my list to repurchase.  Now if we can only get the one for Martin's world that's been promised for years.
 
2013-01-08 01:27:51 AM

Jim_Callahan: ... that help at all?


That definitely helped the "why is this a big deal" question. I guess it's sort of like people who read the Dark Tower series. I imagine people would be equally mystified if I was all pysched about a new book by Christopher Stasheff or Keith Laumer.
 
2013-01-08 01:45:33 AM

Lumbar Puncture: tillerman35: bhcompy:
Sanderson is a better writer than Jordan and has imagination on par with Jordan(Jordan's primary strength).

So he's a really GOOD fan fiction author. It still doesn't change the fact that he's ripping off a dead guy's life's work. There are a good authors on www.fanfiction.net too. Maybe he should contribute to the Harry Potter forum. If he's into the erotic stuff, he could even do a mash-up and have Hermione Granger do a four-way with Rand al'Thor, Perrin Aybara, and Matrim Cauthon.

Don't feed.


Yeah, take the word of a troll or the series creator. I'll take Robert Jordan at his word, Sanderson is finishing his Wheel of Time. Looking forward to getting my copy!

/Not giving the troll an email notification, figured I'd respond to a rational response
 
2013-01-08 01:45:55 AM
Oh yeah, that's coming out.. thought it was later in the month.

My birthday is in two days, so I'll definitely wait and see if I get it then.
 
2013-01-08 01:51:40 AM
And so ends the worlds longest discourse on embroidery.
 
2013-01-08 02:01:28 AM
Sanderson has done wonders for the series so far. Can't wait to see how he help Jordan rap this series up.
 
2013-01-08 02:24:42 AM
Brandon Sanderson is a damned hero for the work he's done finishing this series.

Only a few hours until I get my copy, and I'm totally stoked. After that it's "Wait for Stormlight Two" mode.
 
2013-01-08 02:27:52 AM

erewhon: DonkeyDixon: blackartemis: /Save some time and skip all chapters about Perrin

So much THIS. Was my favorite character through Shadow Rising. The way he and Faile were mishandled after that has left me hoping he's the one main character who dies.

How dare you. Thor/Perrin is the BEST character in the series. Shut your whore mouth.


Maybe if he wasn't such an annoying PITA. He gets given something great and denies it for years, whines like a biatch, doesn't listen to others about it. Now he's running around in the wolf dream, I hope he gets maimed or killed.
 
2013-01-08 02:35:26 AM
I really liked Rand in the last book, now that he's finally sane, and almost Zen.

Just thinking back.. I'm not exactly sure when I started the series, but there was a Warlords game that had 8 warring factions, which I played on a Mac IIvx, and the white colored faction I referred to as the Whitecloaks.
 
2013-01-08 04:30:07 AM

Fark Griswald: A surprising amount of haters in here.


My 16 yo daughter is a heavy reader and she had this series on the list for a long time. She was absolutely pissed off after being halfway through the first book, said it didn't make sense and had no "attention span". LOL.
 
2013-01-08 05:35:06 AM

bhcompy: What, you never heard of Zelazny? Cook? Kay?


Zelazny's work was mostly in the form of parody, black comedy, and satire. Have you only heard of him over the internet, or did you miss where I mentioned the comedic? I ask because he's probably one of the greatest authors of all time, so if you're not familiar enough with him to know that he primarily wrote black comedy and satire then that makes me sad. I'll give a pass for not knowing that a lot of his best stuff was pre-1970, by the '70s he was already being anthologized.

(Honestly, people cribbing Zelazny is the _reason_ why so much of 70s/80s fantasy was comedy or van-painting, most of them just couldn't pull it off quite as well. He was the goddamned master of both before anyone else had realized you could do anything but epic fantasy and sword & sorcery)

I guess Black Company's borderline, it was heavy on deconstruction but I guess you could interpret it as not crossing the line into satire/parody if you were spinning really hard to make a point.

Kay was somewhere between pretentious and the cool van until he got a grip on himself in the late 1990s. Nothing necessarily wrong with that, in all fairness dude was an Oxford student whose first real job was literally cribbing Tolkein and adding more mythology references. That shiat, I assume, gets into your brain fast.

So... one half out of three. I'mma go with "nope, I'm still right. mostly."
//Whee, literature thread.
 
2013-01-08 06:15:11 AM

Jim_Callahan: I guess Black Company's borderline, it was heavy on deconstruction but I guess you could interpret it as not crossing the line into satire/parody if you were spinning really hard to make a point.

Kay was somewhere between pretentious and the cool van until he got a grip on himself in the late 1990s. Nothing necessarily wrong with that, in all fairness dude was an Oxford student whose first real job was literally cribbing Tolkein and adding more mythology references. That shiat, I assume, gets into your brain fast.


Black Company was ok. I also enjoyed the TunFaire detective stuff, but that was obviously comedy.

What did you think of the Fionavar stuff? It wasn't bad. Still somewhat derivative.

Zelazny, near perfect. I'd love to see someone pull off a really good cable series of Amber that was at least halfway true to the source material.
 
2013-01-08 06:39:06 AM

Jim_Callahan: I guess Black Company's borderline, it was heavy on deconstruction but I guess you could interpret it as not crossing the line into satire/parody if you were spinning really hard to make a point.


Having only just finished the first 3 black company books last night, I would argue against calling them satire or parody. You could tell that they author was tired of many of the other "high fantasy" tropes of the day, and the books are definitely a reaction.
 
2013-01-08 07:24:39 AM
When your story needs its own encyclopedia, perhaps it's a tad unnecessarily complex.

Oh, and...

farm3.staticflickr.com
 
2013-01-08 07:58:47 AM
I can't believe I forgot to order it. I'm away on business but will pick up at some point today.

I've been reading these for 20 years. That is terrifying and a bit sad.
 
2013-01-08 08:18:58 AM
Steven Erikson managed to write a better series in about half the time. If Sanderson hasn't saved WoT people would look at it like they do Sword of Truth except with braid tugging instead of rape.
 
2013-01-08 08:34:02 AM

Boojum2k: Fark Griswald: A surprising amount of haters in here.

Mostly just ones spouting troll cliches, who probably haven't read the books, and a couple who'd get lost if Dick and Jane added a third character. I like crunchy crunchy detail.


Not really no, I'd say a good chunk of people have the books assessed right. The guy wanted to write a world setting and not a story or develop characters. Tell me something awesome about book 10 (check the reviews on book 10 on amazon). Tell me the difference between the female characters that isn't their powers or appearance.

Jordan even admitted to basing all the female characters on his wife.

Guy was inventive, but needed an editor badly (his wife does not count), and possibly a partner that had a better way with words, and a little story telling flair.

I was a Mat fan, there was not enough Mat later on. I'll admit to stopping after book 10, so I don't know if he had more "screen time."

He's compared to Tolkein, and I admit I get annoyed at Tolkein's love for setting details, but Tolkein differentiated his main characters, moved plot better, and had a better way with words.
 
2013-01-08 08:45:36 AM

Sheseala: Boojum2k: Fark Griswald: A surprising amount of haters in here.

Mostly just ones spouting troll cliches, who probably haven't read the books, and a couple who'd get lost if Dick and Jane added a third character. I like crunchy crunchy detail.

Not really no, I'd say a good chunk of people have the books assessed right. The guy wanted to write a world setting and not a story or develop characters. Tell me something awesome about book 10 (check the reviews on book 10 on amazon). Tell me the difference between the female characters that isn't their powers or appearance.

Jordan even admitted to basing all the female characters on his wife.

Guy was inventive, but needed an editor badly (his wife does not count), and possibly a partner that had a better way with words, and a little story telling flair.

I was a Mat fan, there was not enough Mat later on. I'll admit to stopping after book 10, so I don't know if he had more "screen time."

He's compared to Tolkein, and I admit I get annoyed at Tolkein's love for setting details, but Tolkein differentiated his main characters, moved plot better, and had a better way with words.


If you read through book 10 you made it to the low point. Book 11 was a little better and book 12 (when sanderson took over) was actually good.

That doesn't excuse the series for how terrible books 8-11 but it is something.
 
2013-01-08 08:56:28 AM
It will be nice to complete Wheel of Time finally. Screw you haters, it will still be better than 90% or more of the crap on the shelves at my local 'book store'

I nearly got thrown out last time I went in there for pulling a get off my lawn temper tantrum.

They have at least 6 shelves devoted to non-book items such as board games, candles, empty journals, posters and whatever else, and only two shelves for science fiction and fantasy. On those two shelves I see, Assasin's Creed, Gears of War, Halo, the Dungeons and Dragons rulebooks and maybe 5 or six original works. How is this even possible? Did they actually work at having the worst farking bookstore on the planet or did the publishers mix up what got shipped and what got thrown out?

Two of the actual books they had were reprints of The Lord of the Rings (and the Hobbit) and the Song of Ice and Fire. So basically unless it's a farking video game or a farking movie or a farking HBO series they don't stock it. Hell I would have been happy if they had a reprint of Total Recall due to the recent movie but they didn't even have that!

I shouldn't be having rants like this at the age of 28 but there it is. fark I hate the state of 'bookstores' these days.
 
2013-01-08 09:10:58 AM
Quick question, if anyone's still reading the thread: I'm liking Sanderson's handling of these last WoT books. Seems he's been a busy boy, churning out novel after novel. So, any recommendations where to start with his non-WoT books?
 
2013-01-08 09:27:04 AM

Son of Thunder: Quick question, if anyone's still reading the thread: I'm liking Sanderson's handling of these last WoT books. Seems he's been a busy boy, churning out novel after novel. So, any recommendations where to start with his non-WoT books?


Hard to go wrong, really. I'd recommend Mistborn first.

And if you like the Wheel of Time, you'll probably really like The Way of Kings, too. farking solid.
 
2013-01-08 09:35:08 AM
Gave up on this series years ago.
If you do buy the last book, just read the last 4 chapters, that is the only part of those books where anything happens.
One does not simply walk around and around the Wheel of Time world.
 
2013-01-08 09:40:49 AM

grokca: Gave up on this series years ago.
If you do buy the last book, just read the last 4 chapters, that is the only part of those books where anything happens.
One does not simply walk around and around the Wheel of Time world.


This is not true in the Sanderson books. Seriously.

/it was definitely true in Crossroads of Twilight, though
//Seriously can't remember anything that happened in that book
 
2013-01-08 09:44:18 AM

Egoy3k: I shouldn't be having rants like this at the age of 28 but there it is. fark I hate the state of 'bookstores' these days.


They still sell books in stores?
 
2013-01-08 10:23:59 AM

Carth: If you read through book 10 you made it to the low point. Book 11 was a little better and book 12 (when sanderson took over) was actually good.

That doesn't excuse the series for how terrible books 8-11 but it is something.


I will second this. I have a pretty high tolerance for bad writing (I made it through 8 or 9 of Terry Goodkinds books before I could not go any further) but the last few by Sanderson/Jordan were actually good. I think his wife made a very good choice picking sanderson, and after reading Mistborn I know exactly what she saw in it. Some of Sandersons stuff is kind of meh, but mistborn evokes the same feelings that the early WoT books did.

The books 8-10 were each more disappointing than the last. When Jordan started resurrecting bad guys who he had previously killed off, I knew that he intended to draw the series out until he died. I did not particularly appreciate some of his writing style, but the books stood out to a much younger me. When I picked up his series (around when he published book 8) it stood out from many of the other mental twinkies in the scifi/fantasy section of my library.
 
2013-01-08 10:37:53 AM

Carth: low point


Carth: If you read through book 10 you made it to the low point. Book 11 was a little better and book 12 (when sanderson took over) was actually good.

That doesn't excuse the series for how terrible books 8-11 but it is something.


I'll give it a go. I do want to know what happens.
 
2013-01-08 10:56:05 AM
What hooked me with the first book was that Lan was awesome and I had a crush on Moiraine.

Both characters sorta fell to the wayside and we were stuck with the kids who I never really felt were characters. I stopped reading around book 6 or something. You can only read so much plot with no characters for so long before it becomes masochistic.
 
2013-01-08 11:01:25 AM

Handsome B. Wonderful: Egoy3k: I shouldn't be having rants like this at the age of 28 but there it is. fark I hate the state of 'bookstores' these days.

They still sell books in stores?


Well if you consider the adventures of the codpiece brothers Marcus and Dom in their super manly fight against the locust in print for a book then yes they do. You just need to dig though piles of board games and twilight posters to find them.
 
2013-01-08 11:29:36 AM
Read the first 13 on Kindle. Was hoping to finish the set. Not happy.
 
2013-01-08 11:41:17 AM

Millennium: Read the first 13 on Kindle. Was hoping to finish the set. Not happy.


I am sorta annoyed by this decision by Tor as well.  Probably stems from Amazon winning that decision against the major publishing houses and Apple.
 
2013-01-08 11:42:56 AM

Egoy3k: I shouldn't be having rants like this at the age of 28


Or at all.
 
2013-01-08 11:58:25 AM

bhcompy: entropic_existence: bhcompy: 15 years too late. Meanwhile, Erikson put out a more compelling series with 10 books in about 11 years.

/take note GRRM

The Malazan books do kick serious ass.

It's between that and Amber as to which is my favorite series, though the Malazan books has the best character dialogue/interaction I've read


Haven't read Amber yet. But I did get the first book of Erikson's new series for Christmas. Haven't started reading it yet but man, this guy can write. Based on the business of my life, he can actually write, edit, and publish his stuff faster than I can read them. Still on book 9!
 
2013-01-08 12:07:23 PM

gopher321: Ordered from Amazon - release date January 8th. Was hoping halfheartedly to read it online since I've bought a copy already, but haven't found one.

Been reading since 1990 man....1990.


Wow, my brother was born that year and he's graduating from College now. I read the books in high school and stopped at Crossroads of Twilight and gave up because nothing farking happened in that book.

I heard when Sanderson took over he cut out a lot of bloat, but I'm scared to get back into it. Also, it's been so long I've forgotten a fair bit and re-reading them all will take forever.

Is it worth reading the last books?
 
2013-01-08 12:15:45 PM

shortymac: I heard when Sanderson took over he cut out a lot of bloat, but I'm scared to get back into it. Also, it's been so long I've forgotten a fair bit and re-reading them all will take forever.

Is it worth reading the last books?


Yes. RJ himself started turning things around in his last book, which helps a lot, but wrapping up convoluted uber-plotlines is something of a specialty of Sanderson's. It's awesome.
 
2013-01-08 12:15:57 PM

shortymac: Is it worth reading the last books?


I would say so Sanderson is doing a really great job at minimum he's doing as well as Robert Jordan.

/IMO he's a better writer.
 
2013-01-08 12:28:48 PM

Dissociater: bhcompy: entropic_existence: bhcompy: 15 years too late. Meanwhile, Erikson put out a more compelling series with 10 books in about 11 years.

/take note GRRM

The Malazan books do kick serious ass.

It's between that and Amber as to which is my favorite series, though the Malazan books has the best character dialogue/interaction I've read

Haven't read Amber yet. But I did get the first book of Erikson's new series for Christmas. Haven't started reading it yet but man, this guy can write. Based on the business of my life, he can actually write, edit, and publish his stuff faster than I can read them. Still on book 9!


Have fun with it! He does a pretty good job wrapping it up. If you haven't read the Bauchelain and Korbal Broach short stories I suggest you acquire those. Funniest shiat I've ever read. Poor Emanicpor.
 
2013-01-08 12:41:19 PM

LockeOak: Oh, and the male characters were written as though they're half-retarded socially awkward 16 year olds and the female characters were written as though it was Mean Girls in a magical fantasy realm.


This, but when Rand gets pissed... Read so much of these women(even the non-evil ones) being total and utter biatches to eachother and unify that against the men, it's awesome for them to get scared shiatless(or worse) by Rand.

Not worth reading all the books if you have better things to do, but if the books are sitting there and you're bored...

Smeggy Smurf: Spoiler alert:

sniff, tug braid, smooth dress, sniff


This.(And "does he like me, does he hate me", etc, a LOT of redundant crap) Probably around 75% of the books, useless filler. I conditioned myself to recognize the beginnings of such crap and scan forward to where actual story picks back up.
 
2013-01-08 12:46:47 PM
I spent two years solid reading the WoT. I thought the Sanderson book was the last one. I put up with all the braid tugging, arms crossed below her bosom and so many other repetitious phrases. Only to find out I had to wait 6 more months!
It's almost here. I can rest soon. My labour is nearly ended...

\I killed some time with the Name of the Wind and Wise Man's Fear
\\Now I have to wait some more...
\\\Foundation here I come...
 
2013-01-08 12:49:57 PM

LockeOak: I stopped reading this series somewhere in book 6 or so when I realized I could open any of the previous books to any random point and I probably wouldn't know what was going on or who half the characters were.


This. I read up to the most current book at the time (six or seven) and realized that by the time the next one was published a year later, I probably wouldn't be able to follow it. Now that the series is complete, maybe I'll start over from book 1 and read them straight through...but damn, it's a hell of an undertaking.
 
2013-01-08 12:54:45 PM

rockymountainrider: \\\Foundation here I come...


That's a fun set, not anywhere nearly so monotonous and redundant as Wheel.
 
2013-01-08 01:16:21 PM

LockeOak: Oh, and the male characters were written as though they're half-retarded socially awkward 16 year olds and the female characters were written as though it was Mean Girls in a magical fantasy realm.


Early on, the male characters were written as half-retarded socially awkward 16-year-olds because that's exactly what they were. They got better.

The female characters, on the other hand... yeah, this is unfortunate. RJ clearly needed a dominatrix: he had this clear idea that biatchiness equals strength in female characters. Fortunately, the series is now in the hands of someone who knows better, and this is another of those things that Sanderson is working very hard to fix. He doesn't deny what came before -the characters do not wake up one morning, magically cured of their attitude problems- but they're actually growing. It's really quite interesting to watch.
 
2013-01-08 01:25:00 PM

HotWingAgenda: I was up way too late the other night reading through endless blogs and literary reviews trying to figure out what the big deal is with this series. I have a couple of friends that are obsessed with it, and this book in particular, but they've never been able to explain what they like about it, or even what it's about. Other than "fantasy" or "it's like Lord of the Rings but not".

And that troubles me, because I grew up reading fantasy, and these friends otherwise have the same taste in books as I do.


I liked the series because it was a fantasy story that wasn't all about magic, it also brought politics, trade, and other "real life" stuff into it. I also loved the world that was built around it.

Think of it as a "Game of Thrones" type series but PG-13 instead of NC-17.

The series was great until book 5 or 6, it started slowing down for 7 to 9 but was still pretty good, book 10 and the prequel novel he wrote are when I gave up, the book where nothing happened. Again, similar to GOT with 1 to 3 being amazing and books 4 and 5 still good but needing an editor with balls.
 
2013-01-08 01:29:09 PM

Fish in a Barrel: I got my tracking number this morning. It should be on my porch when I get home from work tomorrow.

I just want to be done with the series at this point.


Really? I think the last 2 books have been the best of the series. I can't wait to start reading this last one.
 
2013-01-08 01:35:05 PM

Millennium: LockeOak: Oh, and the male characters were written as though they're half-retarded socially awkward 16 year olds and the female characters were written as though it was Mean Girls in a magical fantasy realm.

Early on, the male characters were written as half-retarded socially awkward 16-year-olds because that's exactly what they were. They got better.

The female characters, on the other hand... yeah, this is unfortunate. RJ clearly needed a dominatrix: he had this clear idea that biatchiness equals strength in female characters. Fortunately, the series is now in the hands of someone who knows better, and this is another of those things that Sanderson is working very hard to fix. He doesn't deny what came before -the characters do not wake up one morning, magically cured of their attitude problems- but they're actually growing. It's really quite interesting to watch.


As a chick it pissed me off a bit as well, especially later on in the series when most of the main characters had "grown up". I can argue that the taco party of the Tower can cause women to get super biatchy, for a real life example work in an HR department.

I think Jordan suffered from a problem that a lot of men in his generation had, they believe that women are equals but weren't raised with such idea. They struggle to reconcile the attitudes they were raised with and their new ideals. Heinlein had this problem in "Stranger in a Strange Land" IMHO.
 
2013-01-08 01:35:24 PM

rockymountainrider: \I killed some time with the Name of the Wind and Wise Man's Fear
\\Now I have to wait some more...
\\\Foundation here I come...


Take a mental break with The Lies of Locke Lamora
 
2013-01-08 01:38:31 PM

shortymac: The series was great until book 5 or 6, it started slowing down for 7 to 9 but was still pretty good, book 10 and the prequel novel he wrote are when I gave up, the book where nothing happened. Again, similar to GOT with 1 to 3 being amazing and books 4 and 5 still good but needing an editor with balls.


10 is where a lot of people give up, and not without reason: it very much deserves its reputation as a book where nothing happens. What follows is perhaps spoilery, but only for structure, not specifics.

Something very important happens during the last chapter of Book 9. You will know this event when you see it; the importance is obvious and telegraphed. This is not the problem. The problem is that the first half of Book 10 -some 420 pages, and I'm not entirely sure that's a coincidence- is nothing but what other people were doing during this world-shaking event. The second half, equally long, is nothing but these same people's immediate reactions to that same event.

840 freaking pages, to cover maybe six hours of time within the context of the series (seriously; I'm not sure anyone even sleeps over the course of the book). It's a travesty. Fortunately, that's as bad as it ever gets, and worse by a long shot than anything that came before and comes afterward. But it's there, and it's tough to blame people for giving up over it.
 
2013-01-08 01:48:21 PM

Millennium: 10 is where a lot of people give up, and not without reason: it very much deserves its reputation as a book where nothing happens. What follows is perhaps spoilery, but only for structure, not specifics.


The topic has come up before as an aside(WoT in general), but never the focus of the article that I've seen.

It brings a certain assuring/justifying feeling when so many agree on a subject that you've never really have discussed with this many people before.(Ymmv, but I find the thought not ordinary as I've never been part of a book club or had a lot of friends/family with the same interests)

We all liked the books up to a point(or we wouldn't have read that many of them), and all agree on the same major faults. That's something almost unheard of, on fark at any rate, where people can't agree on what made the Batman movies suck(or not suck), down to quibbling over every little detail.
 
2013-01-08 01:48:41 PM

Millennium: shortymac: The series was great until book 5 or 6, it started slowing down for 7 to 9 but was still pretty good, book 10 and the prequel novel he wrote are when I gave up, the book where nothing happened. Again, similar to GOT with 1 to 3 being amazing and books 4 and 5 still good but needing an editor with balls.

10 is where a lot of people give up, and not without reason: it very much deserves its reputation as a book where nothing happens. What follows is perhaps spoilery, but only for structure, not specifics.

Something very important happens during the last chapter of Book 9. You will know this event when you see it; the importance is obvious and telegraphed. This is not the problem. The problem is that the first half of Book 10 -some 420 pages, and I'm not entirely sure that's a coincidence- is nothing but what other people were doing during this world-shaking event. The second half, equally long, is nothing but these same people's immediate reactions to that same event.

840 freaking pages, to cover maybe six hours of time within the context of the series (seriously; I'm not sure anyone even sleeps over the course of the book). It's a travesty. Fortunately, that's as bad as it ever gets, and worse by a long shot than anything that came before and comes afterward. But it's there, and it's tough to blame people for giving up over it.


That's where I gave up too, for the exact reasons why you listed here.

I started reading the series right before book 10 came out and then ending of book 9 made me really really excited for it. I got the hardcopy book and was so so disappointed. :(

If that's the worst the series gets well I might just re-read the series now that it's done. Kindle here I come.
 
2013-01-08 02:00:49 PM

GoldSpider: When your story needs its own encyclopedia, perhaps it's a tad unnecessarily complex.

Oh, and...


I love Rob Sheridan. He's an interesting dude, and that pic is one of my faves.
 
2013-01-08 02:01:12 PM
I tried. I really tried to like the Jordan series. But man, you have the statement of the problem. You have a brazillion words describing buttons and outfits and fabrics and smells and scenes. And you have the conflict/resolution wrapped up in what I seem to recall in very few paragraphs. Seriously, like this is TO THE MINUTE DETAIL what everything looked like and, oh yeah, the bad guy? He fell down and bumped his head and everyone said YAY! I found it painful to read.

If that's world-building or whatnot, maybe I'm just more a fan of good storytelling and plot progress. But I couldn't finish or make it past the 6th book. I'm not a Jordan fan, but I love the genre. No joy whatsoever derived from this series for me.

Thanks for the Malazan Book of the Fallen recommendation upthread. It's time I find something new (to me) to work on.
 
2013-01-08 02:09:27 PM

shortymac: Millennium: LockeOak: Oh, and the male characters were written as though they're half-retarded socially awkward 16 year olds and the female characters were written as though it was Mean Girls in a magical fantasy realm.

Early on, the male characters were written as half-retarded socially awkward 16-year-olds because that's exactly what they were. They got better.

The female characters, on the other hand... yeah, this is unfortunate. RJ clearly needed a dominatrix: he had this clear idea that biatchiness equals strength in female characters. Fortunately, the series is now in the hands of someone who knows better, and this is another of those things that Sanderson is working very hard to fix. He doesn't deny what came before -the characters do not wake up one morning, magically cured of their attitude problems- but they're actually growing. It's really quite interesting to watch.

As a chick it pissed me off a bit as well, especially later on in the series when most of the main characters had "grown up". I can argue that the taco party of the Tower can cause women to get super biatchy, for a real life example work in an HR department.

I think Jordan suffered from a problem that a lot of men in his generation had, they believe that women are equals but weren't raised with such idea. They struggle to reconcile the attitudes they were raised with and their new ideals. Heinlein had this problem in "Stranger in a Strange Land" IMHO.


Intelligent discourse? On my Fark?

Taco party made me giggle.

Yes, to Jordan thinking biatchy=strong.

I want to be green ajah and bond Lan &Thom. Fun. Also, gimme a sword to go with my magicks!
 
2013-01-08 02:31:37 PM

TheMysticS: shortymac: Millennium: LockeOak: Oh, and the male characters were written as though they're half-retarded socially awkward 16 year olds and the female characters were written as though it was Mean Girls in a magical fantasy realm.

Early on, the male characters were written as half-retarded socially awkward 16-year-olds because that's exactly what they were. They got better.

The female characters, on the other hand... yeah, this is unfortunate. RJ clearly needed a dominatrix: he had this clear idea that biatchiness equals strength in female characters. Fortunately, the series is now in the hands of someone who knows better, and this is another of those things that Sanderson is working very hard to fix. He doesn't deny what came before -the characters do not wake up one morning, magically cured of their attitude problems- but they're actually growing. It's really quite interesting to watch.

As a chick it pissed me off a bit as well, especially later on in the series when most of the main characters had "grown up". I can argue that the taco party of the Tower can cause women to get super biatchy, for a real life example work in an HR department.

I think Jordan suffered from a problem that a lot of men in his generation had, they believe that women are equals but weren't raised with such idea. They struggle to reconcile the attitudes they were raised with and their new ideals. Heinlein had this problem in "Stranger in a Strange Land" IMHO.

Intelligent discourse? On my Fark?

Taco party made me giggle.

Yes, to Jordan thinking biatchy=strong.

I want to be green ajah and bond Lan &Thom. Fun. Also, gimme a sword to go with my magicks!


Thank you! :) I would probably be a Green Ajah as well, they seem to be the tomboy types. Though I really like learning so I might have gone Brown Ajah but actually be out in the world.
 
2013-01-08 02:48:14 PM

LL316: Fish in a Barrel: I got my tracking number this morning. It should be on my porch when I get home from work tomorrow.

I just want to be done with the series at this point.

Really? I think the last 2 books have been the best of the series. I can't wait to start reading this last one.


Book 10 was such a kick in the nuts, I think it soured me on the whole experience. The Sanderson books have been much better, and I'll enjoy reading it, but right now I'd rate the whole experience as "not worth it."

Sheseala: I was a Mat fan, there was not enough Mat later on.


I agree with this. Early Mat was an annoying little shiat. After he made his bargain, he transformed into an awesome character.

Perrin had the opposite arc, as far as I'm concerned. He went searching for Faile and found it.
 
2013-01-08 02:51:31 PM

Ochiba: I tried. I really tried to like the Jordan series. But man, you have the statement of the problem. You have a brazillion words describing buttons and outfits and fabrics and smells and scenes. And you have the conflict/resolution wrapped up in what I seem to recall in very few paragraphs. Seriously, like this is TO THE MINUTE DETAIL what everything looked like and, oh yeah, the bad guy? He fell down and bumped his head and everyone said YAY! I found it painful to read.

If that's world-building or whatnot, maybe I'm just more a fan of good storytelling and plot progress. But I couldn't finish or make it past the 6th book. I'm not a Jordan fan, but I love the genre. No joy whatsoever derived from this series for me.

Thanks for the Malazan Book of the Fallen recommendation upthread. It's time I find something new (to me) to work on.


A few things to note about the Malazan Book of the Fallen (my two cents, ymmv, etc):

In my opinion it's the best fantasy series ever written, but it's absolutely not for everyone. There are a number of things that I loved that I could see turning off other readers. It's incredibly high fantasy. There is sorcery everywhere, the gods are active and play a big hand in the events of the books (I personally love this as there are far too many books that try to treat magic as some rare mysterious force, which is imo an overused plot tool).

It's also an incredibly original setting with its own rules on magic and gods. The rules are internally consistent, but confusing and a lot of it is never fully explained, but rather you're expected to pick up on it as the story goes on. There are also hundreds of characters, and very few who can be considered main characters. It's an ensemble cast of characters numbering in the dozens who can be listed as 'protagonists' but there is no Rand, or Jon Snow for readers to attach to per se.

Some of the books take place at the same time as other books but in different parts of the world with different casts. So you might finish the story of one group of characters and not see that story line picked up for 2 more books.

It'll be easier now than it was when I started reading the series (I started right when the first book was published), but a lot of the time there will be seemingly minor plot points mentioned in one book that are referenced two books later as being of huge importance. If you don't read the books right after the other this can get confusing!

If none of these things turn you off here's what you have to look forward to:
-A sweeping epic fantasy story that breaks significant conventions in the genre
-Incredibly well written and creative and exciting stories
-Memorable characters and some of the best dialogue I've ever read with characters who have their own mannerisms, speech patterns, etc. Many books I've read have every character talk the exact same way, sometimes with an accent thrown in. When you get to characters like Tehol, or Kruppe, you'll see what I mean.
-Very few (although not without one or two) deux ex machina cop outs. Very very rarely will a character be saved by the unexpected. Erikson's very detailed when it comes to explaining why a character is where he is and acts the way he does.
-Main characters, good guys, and those who seem to survive the unsurvivable will suddenly die. No one is safe, but it doesn't reach the cynical 'everyone dies' levels that happens in A song of fire and ice.
-He also hates cliffhanger endings to his books. He wants each installment to be part of the greater story but leave very few loose ends. This means the last 1/3 of each book is rather exciting as everything leads up to a big climax.
 
2013-01-08 02:55:01 PM

Dissociater: In my opinion it's the best fantasy series ever written, but it's absolutely not for everyone. There are a number of things that I loved that I could see turning off other readers. It's incredibly high fantasy.


I read book 1, and there were some things I thought were very cool about it, but the "very high fantasy" thing was too much for me. It's fantasy turned up to 11.
 
2013-01-08 02:56:12 PM

bhcompy: Dissociater: bhcompy: entropic_existence: bhcompy: 15 years too late. Meanwhile, Erikson put out a more compelling series with 10 books in about 11 years.

/take note GRRM

The Malazan books do kick serious ass.

It's between that and Amber as to which is my favorite series, though the Malazan books has the best character dialogue/interaction I've read

Haven't read Amber yet. But I did get the first book of Erikson's new series for Christmas. Haven't started reading it yet but man, this guy can write. Based on the business of my life, he can actually write, edit, and publish his stuff faster than I can read them. Still on book 9!

Have fun with it! He does a pretty good job wrapping it up. If you haven't read the Bauchelain and Korbal Broach short stories I suggest you acquire those. Funniest shiat I've ever read. Poor Emanicpor.


I suspect I'll eventually read everything he writes. I'm about 1/2 through Dust of Dreams and it's pretty great. Erikson's one of the very few writers I've read whose quality of writing stays at the same high level as when he began. Sure I have favourite moments among the books, but I can't think of any installments as being weaker than the others.
 
2013-01-08 02:57:50 PM

Fish in a Barrel: Dissociater: In my opinion it's the best fantasy series ever written, but it's absolutely not for everyone. There are a number of things that I loved that I could see turning off other readers. It's incredibly high fantasy.

I read book 1, and there were some things I thought were very cool about it, but the "very high fantasy" thing was too much for me. It's fantasy turned up to 11.


A friend of mine said the exact same thing. I can't begrudge that. While I think you're missing out, if you're not a big fan of that kind of thing then it doesn't get much different over the rest of the series.
 
2013-01-08 03:02:07 PM
As for Wheel of Time, I liked the series when I first started reading it years ago, but I think I share similar experiences that a number of other posters have already mentioned: things started getting silly. There was finally a tipping point in one of the books (I can't remember which one, maybe 7 or 8) where nothing happened the whole book until the final 2 or 3 chapters. And that happening could be summed up in one or two lines.

Since then my tastes have personally changed I suppose, since I tried rereading the first book about 9 months ago and could only get about 1/3 of the way through. It was just not very well written. I do appreciate the scope of the story though.
 
2013-01-08 03:20:41 PM

Dissociater: Ochiba: I tried. I really tried to like the Jordan series. But man, you have the statement of the problem. You have a brazillion words describing buttons and outfits and fabrics and smells and scenes. And you have the conflict/resolution wrapped up in what I seem to recall in very few paragraphs. Seriously, like this is TO THE MINUTE DETAIL what everything looked like and, oh yeah, the bad guy? He fell down and bumped his head and everyone said YAY! I found it painful to read.

If that's world-building or whatnot, maybe I'm just more a fan of good storytelling and plot progress. But I couldn't finish or make it past the 6th book. I'm not a Jordan fan, but I love the genre. No joy whatsoever derived from this series for me.

Thanks for the Malazan Book of the Fallen recommendation upthread. It's time I find something new (to me) to work on.

A few things to note about the Malazan Book of the Fallen (my two cents, ymmv, etc):

In my opinion it's the best fantasy series ever written, but it's absolutely not for everyone. There are a number of things that I loved that I could see turning off other readers. It's incredibly high fantasy. There is sorcery everywhere, the gods are active and play a big hand in the events of the books (I personally love this as there are far too many books that try to treat magic as some rare mysterious force, which is imo an overused plot tool).

It's also an incredibly original setting with its own rules on magic and gods. The rules are internally consistent, but confusing and a lot of it is never fully explained, but rather you're expected to pick up on it as the story goes on. There are also hundreds of characters, and very few who can be considered main characters. It's an ensemble cast of characters numbering in the dozens who can be listed as 'protagonists' but there is no Rand, or Jon Snow for readers to attach to per se.

Some of the books take place at the same time as other books but in different parts of the worl ...


Sounds perfect to me, and thanks for the insight. I'm going to order the first two books tomorrow.
 
2013-01-08 03:23:54 PM
Finished A Memory of Lght. It's good.
 
2013-01-08 03:34:12 PM

Dissociater: Fish in a Barrel: Dissociater: In my opinion it's the best fantasy series ever written, but it's absolutely not for everyone. There are a number of things that I loved that I could see turning off other readers. It's incredibly high fantasy.

I read book 1, and there were some things I thought were very cool about it, but the "very high fantasy" thing was too much for me. It's fantasy turned up to 11.

A friend of mine said the exact same thing. I can't begrudge that. While I think you're missing out, if you're not a big fan of that kind of thing then it doesn't get much different over the rest of the series.


I would disagree slightly. Well, not really disagree per se. Here's the thing, while it stays cranked up, gods getting involved in shiat, big magic, etc, your perception of it as a reader changes. You start to see how the gods are just the same as people, hell most are just Ascendants risen to their current lofty powers. Things are often capricious, arbitrary, and the "regular folks" often just get caught in the crossfire. I like that about the series.
 
2013-01-08 03:38:44 PM

entropic_existence: Dissociater: Fish in a Barrel: Dissociater: In my opinion it's the best fantasy series ever written, but it's absolutely not for everyone. There are a number of things that I loved that I could see turning off other readers. It's incredibly high fantasy.

I read book 1, and there were some things I thought were very cool about it, but the "very high fantasy" thing was too much for me. It's fantasy turned up to 11.

A friend of mine said the exact same thing. I can't begrudge that. While I think you're missing out, if you're not a big fan of that kind of thing then it doesn't get much different over the rest of the series.

I would disagree slightly. Well, not really disagree per se. Here's the thing, while it stays cranked up, gods getting involved in shiat, big magic, etc, your perception of it as a reader changes. You start to see how the gods are just the same as people, hell most are just Ascendants risen to their current lofty powers. Things are often capricious, arbitrary, and the "regular folks" often just get caught in the crossfire. I like that about the series.


I started Malazan, will try to pick it up again, but it seemed to be trying to do Deathstalker in a fantasy setting, everything and everybody that comes along is a bigger badass than the previous, etc. That's fun, but not what I was expecting and it put me off a bit. I'll try it again now that I'm done with WoT, at least until I get two days off back to back to reread the series.
 
2013-01-08 03:45:13 PM

entropic_existence: Dissociater: Fish in a Barrel: Dissociater: In my opinion it's the best fantasy series ever written, but it's absolutely not for everyone. There are a number of things that I loved that I could see turning off other readers. It's incredibly high fantasy.

I read book 1, and there were some things I thought were very cool about it, but the "very high fantasy" thing was too much for me. It's fantasy turned up to 11.

A friend of mine said the exact same thing. I can't begrudge that. While I think you're missing out, if you're not a big fan of that kind of thing then it doesn't get much different over the rest of the series.

I would disagree slightly. Well, not really disagree per se. Here's the thing, while it stays cranked up, gods getting involved in shiat, big magic, etc, your perception of it as a reader changes. You start to see how the gods are just the same as people, hell most are just Ascendants risen to their current lofty powers. Things are often capricious, arbitrary, and the "regular folks" often just get caught in the crossfire. I like that about the series.


I'd say that's accurate. This same friend of mine didn't get very far into the first book. One of the first big battles involving Moon's Spawn where waves of magic and summoned demons tore apart legions of soldiers turned him off. Like you said, as you read on your perception changes, but for him it was an immediate turn off and he never continued reading. Which I can understand, if you read fantasy but aren't really a fan of magic, then it might not be the series for you.

That might sound odd but apparently there are a lot of people who like their magic in fantasy to be hidden to the point of non-existent such as in George RR Martin's books. If that's what a person likes, who am I to judge?
 
2013-01-08 03:54:27 PM

Boojum2k: I started Malazan, will try to pick it up again, but it seemed to be trying to do Deathstalker in a fantasy setting, everything and everybody that comes along is a bigger badass than the previous, etc. That's fun, but not what I was expecting and it put me off a bit. I'll try it again now that I'm done with WoT, at least until I get two days off back to back to reread the series.


The best badasses in the books are the badasses who don't want to be, and try and hold themselves back from acting unless they can't help it. It isn't for everyone but I think there are some really interesting themes in the books that emerge from the world. I've damn near cried at lots of scenes in the books when it comes to moments between soldiers especially.
 
2013-01-08 03:54:49 PM

shortymac: TheMysticS: shortymac: Millennium: LockeOak: Oh, and the male characters were written as though they're half-retarded socially awkward 16 year olds and the female characters were written as though it was Mean Girls in a magical fantasy realm.

Early on, the male characters were written as half-retarded socially awkward 16-year-olds because that's exactly what they were. They got better.

The female characters, on the other hand... yeah, this is unfortunate. RJ clearly needed a dominatrix: he had this clear idea that biatchiness equals strength in female characters. Fortunately, the series is now in the hands of someone who knows better, and this is another of those things that Sanderson is working very hard to fix. He doesn't deny what came before -the characters do not wake up one morning, magically cured of their attitude problems- but they're actually growing. It's really quite interesting to watch.

As a chick it pissed me off a bit as well, especially later on in the series when most of the main characters had "grown up". I can argue that the taco party of the Tower can cause women to get super biatchy, for a real life example work in an HR department.

I think Jordan suffered from a problem that a lot of men in his generation had, they believe that women are equals but weren't raised with such idea. They struggle to reconcile the attitudes they were raised with and their new ideals. Heinlein had this problem in "Stranger in a Strange Land" IMHO.

Intelligent discourse? On my Fark?

Taco party made me giggle.

Yes, to Jordan thinking biatchy=strong.

I want to be green ajah and bond Lan &Thom. Fun. Also, gimme a sword to go with my magicks!

Thank you! :) I would probably be a Green Ajah as well, they seem to be the tomboy types. Though I really like learning so I might have gone Brown Ajah but actually be out in the world.


I think I'm already Brown ajah....
 
2013-01-08 03:56:17 PM
Since we are on the topic of other fantasy books...

Anybody ever read the Chronicles of the Shadow War series by Chris Claremont? I found that trilogy pretty enjoyable despite being based on the movie Willow and with George Lucas in the mix.
 
2013-01-08 04:26:14 PM

Dissociater: entropic_existence: Dissociater: Fish in a Barrel: Dissociater: In my opinion it's the best fantasy series ever written, but it's absolutely not for everyone. There are a number of things that I loved that I could see turning off other readers. It's incredibly high fantasy.

I read book 1, and there were some things I thought were very cool about it, but the "very high fantasy" thing was too much for me. It's fantasy turned up to 11.

A friend of mine said the exact same thing. I can't begrudge that. While I think you're missing out, if you're not a big fan of that kind of thing then it doesn't get much different over the rest of the series.

I would disagree slightly. Well, not really disagree per se. Here's the thing, while it stays cranked up, gods getting involved in shiat, big magic, etc, your perception of it as a reader changes. You start to see how the gods are just the same as people, hell most are just Ascendants risen to their current lofty powers. Things are often capricious, arbitrary, and the "regular folks" often just get caught in the crossfire. I like that about the series.

I'd say that's accurate. This same friend of mine didn't get very far into the first book. One of the first big battles involving Moon's Spawn where waves of magic and summoned demons tore apart legions of soldiers turned him off. Like you said, as you read on your perception changes, but for him it was an immediate turn off and he never continued reading. Which I can understand, if you read fantasy but aren't really a fan of magic, then it might not be the series for you.

That might sound odd but apparently there are a lot of people who like their magic in fantasy to be hidden to the point of non-existent such as in George RR Martin's books. If that's what a person likes, who am I to judge?


The first book is the worst of the series, which is the problem for entry for a lot of people. That said, it's the best goddamn series I've ever read and the humor is top notch while still remaining effectively a dramatic fantasy setting. Kruppe effectively carries the first book for me.

Anyways, the best way to describe the series is The Black Company meets Guy G Kay
 
2013-01-08 04:57:30 PM
I actually find the female WoT characters to pretty fairly represent women, and that's why it pisses off women so badly. Most strong women ARE perceived to be biatchy, or a less inflammatory descriptor might be "assertive". Combine assertiveness with the confidence of being a power wielding woman in a society that's for the most part completely matriarchial from the top to the bottom, with power wielding women at the top... Yeah, to the reader they are all cranky coonts.

Regarding the claim that the male characters don't develop very much.. Really? Most people don't really change that much no matter what events they get caught up in. The farmboys are in their early 20s. Only a few years of time pass n the series. We always imagine ourselves at the apex of our own personal development, as referenced by a couple Fark articles recently.

I think people worship the idea of character development far out of proportion with reality. I feel like the characters grow and change in response to challenges, but fundamentally remain the boys they started out as on the inside. You know, the way most people go through life.
 
2013-01-08 05:27:36 PM

neongoats: I actually find the female WoT characters to pretty fairly represent women, and that's why it pisses off women so badly. Most strong women ARE perceived to be biatchy, or a less inflammatory descriptor might be "assertive".


And tonite on Poe's Law....

/meh, can't even be bothered
 
2013-01-08 06:23:06 PM

ModernLuddite: This is why my wife and I have instituted the "don't start reading a series until it's over" rule.

//I want to read "A Game of Thrones" so bad.
///BUT NO.


Melanie Rawn did that for me, with the end of the Exiles trilogy that I've been waiting to read for the last 16 years.  I won't touch Game of Thrones until it's finished, either.

As for WoT, I dropped it around the 9th book when I finally came to the conclusion that A) Jordan's editor needed to be slapped upside the head with a brick and B) At the rate he was going, he was going to die before he finished the damn thing.
 
2013-01-08 06:37:09 PM
Ugh first couple maybe four were great then it totally sucked. In fact, I actually thought it was over after the second (third?) book. Money-grubby authors are annoying.
 
2013-01-08 06:38:31 PM

dk47: Ugh first couple maybe four were great then it totally sucked. In fact, I actually thought it was over after the second (third?) book. Money-grubby authors are annoying.


Maybe I was just being cynical but that's how I felt as well, although I got to like the 6th or 7th book or thereabouts. I felt like this author had no more story left to tell and was just dragging on nonsense to sell more books.
 
2013-01-08 07:41:15 PM

Dissociater: Ochiba: I tried. I really tried to like the Jordan series. But man, you have the statement of the problem. You have a brazillion words describing buttons and outfits and fabrics and smells and scenes. And you have the conflict/resolution wrapped up in what I seem to recall in very few paragraphs. Seriously, like this is TO THE MINUTE DETAIL what everything looked like and, oh yeah, the bad guy? He fell down and bumped his head and everyone said YAY! I found it painful to read.

If that's world-building or whatnot, maybe I'm just more a fan of good storytelling and plot progress. But I couldn't finish or make it past the 6th book. I'm not a Jordan fan, but I love the genre. No joy whatsoever derived from this series for me.

Thanks for the Malazan Book of the Fallen recommendation upthread. It's time I find something new (to me) to work on.

A few things to note about the Malazan Book of the Fallen (my two cents, ymmv, etc):

In my opinion it's the best fantasy series ever written, but it's absolutely not for everyone. There are a number of things that I loved that I could see turning off other readers. It's incredibly high fantasy. There is sorcery everywhere, the gods are active and play a big hand in the events of the books (I personally love this as there are far too many books that try to treat magic as some rare mysterious force, which is imo an overused plot tool).

It's also an incredibly original setting with its own rules on magic and gods. The rules are internally consistent, but confusing and a lot of it is never fully explained, but rather you're expected to pick up on it as the story goes on. There are also hundreds of characters, and very few who can be considered main characters. It's an ensemble cast of characters numbering in the dozens who can be listed as 'protagonists' but there is no Rand, or Jon Snow for readers to attach to per se.

Some of the books take place at the same time as other books but in different parts of the worl ...


Malazan Book of the Fallen I only read the first book of, for me it had the opposite problem of Jordan, there was so much plot happening. It had plot density of a short story, which was weird in a book that length. I am not sure if I'll pick up the next book.
 
2013-01-08 07:54:42 PM

Sheseala: Malazan Book of the Fallen I only read the first book of, for me it had the opposite problem of Jordan, there was so much plot happening. It had plot density of a short story, which was weird in a book that length. I am not sure if I'll pick up the next book.


The first book is the weakest. It was kind of shoehorned in at the request of the publisher for a backstory of sorts, and it suffers a little for it. #2 has one of the best sequences in the series(and one of my favorite, well, in any book).
 
2013-01-08 08:02:25 PM

Dissociater: dk47: Ugh first couple maybe four were great then it totally sucked. In fact, I actually thought it was over after the second (third?) book. Money-grubby authors are annoying.

Maybe I was just being cynical but that's how I felt as well, although I got to like the 6th or 7th book or thereabouts. I felt like this author had no more story left to tell and was just dragging on nonsense to sell more books.


Now that you mention it, it did have that air about it. Same reason I stopped watching Lost after a couple episodes, simply too nonsensical with a lot of useless filler.

Persevered through the books though, it's easy to flip ahead a few pages.
 
2013-01-08 08:40:59 PM

Ochiba: Sounds perfect to me, and thanks for the insight. I'm going to order the first two books tomorrow


For the love of god check them out of a library to see if they're your thing first. I've heard the second book gets better, but I read the first book and thought it was terrible. It apparently was written as a screenplay first (so I've heard) but as an avid reader I thought it was tedious and poorly written. The books have many fans and for those that do enjoy it appear to love it a lot, but it is very much a love it or hate it experience. Take it for a test drive before buying in.
 
2013-01-08 08:42:45 PM

bhcompy: Sheseala: Malazan Book of the Fallen I only read the first book of, for me it had the opposite problem of Jordan, there was so much plot happening. It had plot density of a short story, which was weird in a book that length. I am not sure if I'll pick up the next book.

The first book is the weakest. It was kind of shoehorned in at the request of the publisher for a backstory of sorts, and it suffers a little for it. #2 has one of the best sequences in the series(and one of my favorite, well, in any book).


I still have to give that one a shot sometime. But man I hated that first book.
 
2013-01-08 08:45:44 PM

Lumbar Puncture: bhcompy: Sheseala: Malazan Book of the Fallen I only read the first book of, for me it had the opposite problem of Jordan, there was so much plot happening. It had plot density of a short story, which was weird in a book that length. I am not sure if I'll pick up the next book.

The first book is the weakest. It was kind of shoehorned in at the request of the publisher for a backstory of sorts, and it suffers a little for it. #2 has one of the best sequences in the series(and one of my favorite, well, in any book).

I still have to give that one a shot sometime. But man I hated that first book.


I would say if you read the second one and you don't like it, don't continue. I feel the first book is a pretty big barrier of entry because it's both the worst book in the series and the hardest to understand because Erikson doesn't explain anything for you(ever).
 
2013-01-08 09:01:39 PM

LadyBelgara: Melanie Rawn did that for me, with the end of the Exiles trilogy that I've been waiting to read for the last 16 years. I won't touch Game of Thrones until it's finished, either.


It's good to know I'm not the only one still holding a grudge against that lady. Dragon Star/Prince would make people who think Martin kills a lot of characters think again.

bhcompy: I would say if you read the second one and you don't like it, don't continue. I feel the first book is a pretty big barrier of entry because it's both the worst book in the series and the hardest to understand because Erikson doesn't explain anything for you(ever)


That's what bugged me, there's no context for anything.
 
2013-01-08 10:02:53 PM

Lumbar Puncture: That's what bugged me, there's no context for anything.


Well, it's like the opposite of Dragonlance, basically. The context comes as you read through the books. By book 4 you have a decent grasp on how gods and magic works, among other things. That said, there still is a lot that isn't explicitly told by the end of the 10 books, which leads you to making inferences as to how certain things work based on the data available. It's an interesting approach. The author assumes you're smart and that you can hang and figure it out. How often does an author do that instead of making some really awkward and out of place explanation as to how something works that everyone else already knows?
 
2013-01-08 10:16:51 PM

bhcompy: Lumbar Puncture: That's what bugged me, there's no context for anything.

Well, it's like the opposite of Dragonlance, basically. The context comes as you read through the books. By book 4 you have a decent grasp on how gods and magic works, among other things. That said, there still is a lot that isn't explicitly told by the end of the 10 books, which leads you to making inferences as to how certain things work based on the data available. It's an interesting approach. The author assumes you're smart and that you can hang and figure it out. How often does an author do that instead of making some really awkward and out of place explanation as to how something works that everyone else already knows?


It's possible to give contextual cues about situations without smacking the audience in the face with a contrived explanation. I don't need to know what the Shrike in the Hyperion Cantos is never really explored or explained and it is never a detriment to the story. Malazon Book One gives the reader so little information that anything cool comes off as confusing or bullshiat Deus Ex Machina or just a bunch of stuff that's sort of going on to some random people that for a long time we aren't given any reason to give a shiat about.

I'm fine with the author assuming I'm smart and can infer information from the tale. Book One doesn't come off as that, it comes off as bad storytelling. I'm still going to give the second book a chance sometime because fans have said it gets better and you can tell people really love those books.
 
2013-01-08 11:13:14 PM
Just tapped out....  Spoiler free review: you don't need to pick this up if you've already abandoned the series, you'll probably be reasonably happy with it if you haven't.  Skirting the edge of spoilers -- it's really disconcerting to see that collection of characters get that much done in one book.

I agree with this. Early Mat was an annoying little shiat. After he made his bargain, he transformed into an awesome character.

Minor disagreement.  I'd argue it's really his transformation in Book Three that sets him up, and really carries him through to book 7.  9-11 are really great.  But Sanderson really doesn't understand how to write him, so he falls off in 12-14.
 
2013-01-09 02:26:56 AM

TheMysticS: Thank you! :) I would probably be a Green Ajah as well, they seem to be the tomboy types. Though I really like learning so I might have gone Brown Ajah but actually be out in the world.

I think I'm already Brown ajah....


Verin Sedai went out in an epic way, demonstrating the power of their way of thinking.
 
2013-01-09 10:35:41 AM
First thing I noticed is that that pages are tissue thin--like a Bible. I guess that's what you need to do when the book is 900 pages.
 
2013-01-09 10:50:23 AM

Fish in a Barrel: First thing I noticed is that that pages are tissue thin--like a Bible. I guess that's what you need to do when the book is 900 pages.


RJ vowed that Book 12 would be the last in the series, even if they needed to invent a new way to bind books to make it happen. Then it turned out that they really did need to invent a new way to bind books to make it happen, which is why Book 14 is the last in the series. Sorry, RJ.
 
2013-01-09 11:52:58 AM
Wait, so does Shota let Richard and Kahlan finally have a baby?
 
2013-01-09 12:01:03 PM

neongoats: tillerman35: bhcompy:
Sanderson is a better writer than Jordan and has imagination on par with Jordan(Jordan's primary strength).

So he's a really GOOD fan fiction author. It still doesn't change the fact that he's ripping off a dead guy's life's work. There are a good authors on www.fanfiction.net too. Maybe he should contribute to the Harry Potter forum. If he's into the erotic stuff, he could even do a mash-up and have Hermione Granger do a four-way with Rand al'Thor, Perrin Aybara, and Matrim Cauthon.

So, explicitly chosen by the now dead guy and his wife/editor to complete a long running series, literally his life's work, is "ripping him off"? You realize that Robert Jordan literally spent the last months of his life explicitly planning, writing, organizing and basically rough drafting the conclusion to his series so that Sanderson could finish it, right?

Troll.


Yet the fact remains that Robert Jordan DIDN'T write the conclusion to his series. He died before he could. It is simply NOT a book written by Robert Jordan. There's no gray area here. Just because he tossed off a plot outline, some back story, a few character sketches, pseudo-historical annotations, etc. and then handed it to over to someone else doesn't magically make the actually writing come from him. I know there are people out there desperately wishing there could be another Wheel of Time book and that the series could somehow come to a conclusion. But there won't. And it won't. Ever.

Here's why crap like this is bad:
1. It diminishes the legacy of the original author. You can't ever say "I read a Dune book" and have people understand that you meant "I read a book by Frank Herbert." Dune is no longer the legacy of Frank Herbert. He's merely one of a couple of contributing authors. If the franchise has legs past the participation of Brian Herbert, that might grow to three contributing writers, or four, or ten.
2. The original author has no control over the final product. Because he's dead. He has no chance to look at the final draft and say "that was a nice try, but it wasn't where I wanted to go. Change this, this, that, and this and get back to me when you're done." Mind you, that wouldn't make it HIS, but it's still another reason why crap like this sucks.
3. It diminishes the contribution of the authorized fanfic writer. Even though he wrote the entire novel, he'll never see it under his own name on a book shelf. Unless, that is he shares a last name with the original author (which is why the publishing industry is so willing to con sons, cousins, grandkids, etc. into "keeping the flame alive")
4. It prevents the authorized fanfic writer from gaining popularity in his/her own right. Brian Herbert might have been able to create and bring to life amazing and incredible new universes of his own. But we'll never know that because he's stuck cranking out books in a universe he ripped off from his father.

Posthumous (and worse, near-posthumous) fan fiction is nothing more than the big bags of cereal at the end of the aisle with names like "Weise Crispies," "Toasty-O's," and "Tootie Fruities." They might look the same as the brand name cereals they imitate. The might taste the same as the brand name cereals they imitate. They might even taste BETTER than the brand name cereals they imitate. But they'll never BE the brand name cereals they imitate. And for the same reason, anything not written by Robert Jordan can ever BE a Wheel of Time book.
 
2013-01-09 12:05:33 PM

Alphax: TheMysticS: Thank you! :) I would probably be a Green Ajah as well, they seem to be the tomboy types. Though I really like learning so I might have gone Brown Ajah but actually be out in the world.

I think I'm already Brown ajah....

Verin Sedai went out in an epic way, demonstrating the power of their way of thinking.


That was one of my favorite plotlines. Out of the 10,000 involved.
 
2013-01-09 12:48:26 PM

tanman1975: Wait, so does Shota let Richard and Kahlan finally have a baby?


Yes, but under the condition that it is a rape baby.
 
2013-01-09 01:04:27 PM
I know there are people out there desperately wishing there could be another Wheel of Time book and that the series could somehow come to a conclusion. But there won't. And it won't. Ever.

Sure there is, it came out yesterday.

Here's why crap like this is bad:
1. It diminishes the legacy of the original author. You can't ever say "I read a Dune book" and have people understand that you meant "I read a book by Frank Herbert." Dune is no longer the legacy of Frank Herbert. He's merely one of a couple of contributing authors. If the franchise has legs past the participation of Brian Herbert, that might grow to three contributing writers, or four, or ten.


Saying it diminishes the original author because of some bullshiat slippery slope argument is complete bullshiat. Given that the dying wishes of Rigney (who wrote as Jordan) was to have someone finish his work and not leave his legacy incomplete, I'd side with the wishes of the author in regards to how his property is handled.

2. The original author has no control over the final product. Because he's dead. He has no chance to look at the final draft and say "that was a nice try, but it wasn't where I wanted to go. Change this, this, that, and this and get back to me when you're done." Mind you, that wouldn't make it HIS, but it's still another reason why crap like this sucks.

His wife and the editors who worked with the author and knew his wishes better than you or I may ever know however did have control over the final product, and it was carefully reviewed by them.

3. It diminishes the contribution of the authorized fanfic writer. Even though he wrote the entire novel, he'll never see it under his own name on a book shelf. Unless, that is he shares a last name with the original author (which is why the publishing industry is so willing to con sons, cousins, grandkids, etc. into "keeping the flame alive")

Sanderson's name is on the cover right under Jordan's and has been for the books he's written, so factually incorrect.

4. It prevents the authorized fanfic writer from gaining popularity in his/her own right. Brian Herbert might have been able to create and bring to life amazing and incredible new universes of his own. But we'll never know that because he's stuck cranking out books in a universe he ripped off from his father.

Sanderson was already a well respected fantasy author in his own right and has multiple universes of his own that he writes about, having recently started a second Mistborn trilogy, started the Stormlight series, and later this year is releasing a new Young Adult series.

you can see how people would assume you are trolling, I mean you are either so woefully uninformed about the author and the books you are trying to talk about that it's a wonder you are chiming in with an opinion at all, much less attempting to sound like an authority on the subject.
 
2013-01-09 01:05:17 PM
Oops, farked up closing a tag.
 
2013-01-09 01:10:26 PM

NobleHam: DarkLancelot: DonkeyDixon: neongoats: Who is to say that "our" age is the age that follows the events in the books?

I don't think RJ was planning to permakill his literary universe by killing off the magic system. he wasn't dying for most of the series after all.

Agreed. Not to mention our times being referenced in Eye of the World. If those were from a prior turning of the Wheel through the First Age, you'd be looking at about 50,000 years give or take, and the memories of the memories of the myths of those legends would have been long forgotten.

I still think our age was not the First Age as people like to claim.  I think we are the one just before it as the portal stones are from there and they are surely magical.  Plus the ties to our time look ultra mythic, not as close as I think it should.

On another note, I read this (starting in 1990) and trudged up to Book 11, which was the first book I've just put down and said "I can't read this crap anymore, I think only one day passed in this 900 pages."  Since I've heard good things about Sanderson I'm rereading the series but I am not looking forward to a few of them.

Well, "Tamyrlin"/Merlin was supposedly the first magic user. I dunno if that's canon or not. I think we should assume the Second Age was really long though.

As for your second paragraph, I think you mean Book 10. That one was awful, and yes, took place pretty much in a single day with absolutely nothing of importance happening, except maybe some crap in Elayne's storyline--which is forgettable and went on way too long. 11 actually started to get good again, then he died, and 12 and 13 actually are good.


Quit hateing on Knife of Dreams. Yes the Perrin rescue story line got WAY WAY too long but the Matt Tuon story line from that book is one of my faves.

Im thinking that the Perrin - Seanchan connection will come into play as going into the last battle.
 
2013-01-09 01:19:16 PM

TheMysticS: Alphax: TheMysticS: Thank you! :) I would probably be a Green Ajah as well, they seem to be the tomboy types. Though I really like learning so I might have gone Brown Ajah but actually be out in the world.

I think I'm already Brown ajah....

Verin Sedai went out in an epic way, demonstrating the power of their way of thinking.

That was one of my favorite plotlines. Out of the 10,000 involved.


Oh I loved her! I had to look her up in the wiki but she would be the type of Brown Ajah I would be.
 
2013-01-09 02:24:44 PM
To any one who thinks some of the WoT books are too slow and want to get to the end of the story or Anyone who wants a review before reading the last boo I would recommend:

http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/

They have a breakdown of all the characters and all the books. With a 1 to 5 paragraph summery of each chapter of each book.

In face when I read the books I like to go to the site after reading each chapter to read the summery to see if I missed any important details.
 
2013-01-09 02:41:52 PM

shortymac: Oh I loved her! I had to look her up in the wiki but she would be the type of Brown Ajah I would be.


So, you like black?
 
2013-01-09 02:51:08 PM

tillerman35: Yet the fact remains that Robert Jordan DIDN'T write the conclusion to his series. He died before he could. It is simply NOT a book written by Robert Jordan.


And this means surprisingly little. It may surprise you to know that, like all modern fiction, the Wheel of Time novels were written by a team. Robert Jordan played the principal role on that team, but he was a team member nonetheless. Most of that team is intact. RJ himself is gone, but other than the very last book, the editor, the publisher, and even the cover art guy were all there (the cover art guy passed away before the last book could be released.

Just because he tossed off a plot outline, some back story, a few character sketches, pseudo-historical annotations, etc. and then handed it to over to someone else doesn't magically make the actually writing come from him. I know there are people out there desperately wishing there could be another Wheel of Time book and that the series could somehow come to a conclusion. But there won't. And it won't. Ever.

Actually, a fair amount of the writing does come straight from him, including, as it happens, the very last chapter (as Sanderson himself has confirmed). It is true that RJ did not pen every last word of the points between KoD and the very end of AMoL, but this means very little: he did the true heavy lifting of authorship, and then he passed what he'd done to an authorized successor to fill in the words when he was gone.

1. It diminishes the legacy of the original author. You can't ever say "I read a Dune book" and have people understand that you meant "I read a book by Frank Herbert." Dune is no longer the legacy of Frank Herbert. He's merely one of a couple of contributing authors. If the franchise has legs past the participation of Brian Herbert, that might grow to three contributing writers, or four, or ten.

This is absurd. I do not know whether or not Frank Herbert authorized a successor, but it scarcely matters: everyone who has any familiarity whatsoever with Dune continues to associate it with Frank Herbert, and rightly so. His legacy is in no way diminished, and neither is RJ's.

2. The original author has no control over the final product. Because he's dead. He has no chance to look at the final draft and say "that was a nice try, but it wasn't where I wanted to go. Change this, this, that, and this and get back to me when you're done." Mind you, that wouldn't make it HIS, but it's still another reason why crap like this sucks.

Professional authors work with editors, and RJ was no different: his editor happened to also be his wife, but that means little. That editing team is intact, and headed by someone uniquely qualified to know RJ's voice. It has not been altered. There is also the matter of RJ's final notes, which were apparently drawn up in ludicrous detail by a man who knew he was going to die without finishing the novel and wanted it to be written anyway. Sanderson and the rest of the team were able to work with the best possible confidence in knowing where RJ wanted to go.

3. It diminishes the contribution of the authorized fanfic writer. Even though he wrote the entire novel, he'll never see it under his own name on a book shelf. Unless, that is he shares a last name with the original author (which is why the publishing industry is so willing to con sons, cousins, grandkids, etc. into "keeping the flame alive")

And the "authorized fanfic writer" is OK with that. He still gets his name in big block letters on the cover and the spine, but in a way that respects where the work came from. His contribution, as he sees it, is in no way diminished, and his opinion is what matters. Not yours.

4. It prevents the authorized fanfic writer from gaining popularity in his/her own right. Brian Herbert might have been able to create and bring to life amazing and incredible new universes of his own. But we'll never know that because he's stuck cranking out ...

You've never read any of Sanderson's other works, have you? While AMoL has certainly helped his popularity, he was already building his own before being tapped. Since you apparently worship the ground RJ walked on, I suggest that you start with the Mistborn Trilogy: RJ's wife has said that this is what convinced her that Sanderson was the proper person to carry on his work. Perhaps it will convince you of the same.

In other words, suck it up and deal. You loved the man; we get that, but it has been more than five years now, and there comes a time for grieving to take a back seat. The series has an ending, and it is a great one. Stew in your self-pity if you must, but you'd be much happier if you just read.
 
2013-01-09 03:14:54 PM

Zafler: shortymac: Oh I loved her! I had to look her up in the wiki but she would be the type of Brown Ajah I would be.

So, you like black?


Was she? I stopped in book 10 and it's been 10 years since I have read them.
 
2013-01-09 03:23:18 PM

shortymac: Zafler: shortymac: Oh I loved her! I had to look her up in the wiki but she would be the type of Brown Ajah I would be.

So, you like black?

Was she? I stopped in book 10 and it's been 10 years since I have read them.


It's a spoiler, and it wasn't mentioned in the series by the time you stopped reading, but yes.

She was forced into it fairly early in her career, and as part of that process she'd taken binding oaths that prevented her from betraying the Black Ajah "until the hour of her death." So she spent the years compiling a list of as many Black sisters as she could, and when she thought her list was long enough, she drank a slow poison (so that it would be "the hour of her death") and handed the list over to the Aes Sedai.
 
2013-01-09 03:24:25 PM

shortymac: Zafler: shortymac: Oh I loved her! I had to look her up in the wiki but she would be the type of Brown Ajah I would be.

So, you like black?

Was she? I stopped in book 10 and it's been 10 years since I have read them.


Innuendo aside, the wiki has spoilers. Also, as others have said, the 10th book is basically the worst for plot development and events.

/If I were female, I'd be a combination of white and green probably.
 
2013-01-09 03:25:14 PM
Millennium

So much for my spoiler free posting.
 
2013-01-09 03:45:27 PM

Zafler: shortymac: Zafler: shortymac: Oh I loved her! I had to look her up in the wiki but she would be the type of Brown Ajah I would be.

So, you like black?

Was she? I stopped in book 10 and it's been 10 years since I have read them.

Innuendo aside, the wiki has spoilers. Also, as others have said, the 10th book is basically the worst for plot development and events.

/If I were female, I'd be a combination of white and green probably.


Spoiler: She was a mole in the Black Ajah
 
2013-01-09 03:54:10 PM

Millennium: shortymac: Zafler: shortymac: Oh I loved her! I had to look her up in the wiki but she would be the type of Brown Ajah I would be.

So, you like black?

Was she? I stopped in book 10 and it's been 10 years since I have read them.

It's a spoiler, and it wasn't mentioned in the series by the time you stopped reading, but yes.

She was forced into it fairly early in her career, and as part of that process she'd taken binding oaths that prevented her from betraying the Black Ajah "until the hour of her death." So she spent the years compiling a list of as many Black sisters as she could, and when she thought her list was long enough, she drank a slow poison (so that it would be "the hour of her death") and handed the list over to the Aes Sedai.


She was awesome. The death scene was really compelling. The whole thing blindsided me, which I love.
 
2013-01-09 04:12:46 PM

TheMysticS: Millennium: shortymac: Zafler: shortymac: Oh I loved her! I had to look her up in the wiki but she would be the type of Brown Ajah I would be.

So, you like black?

Was she? I stopped in book 10 and it's been 10 years since I have read them.

It's a spoiler, and it wasn't mentioned in the series by the time you stopped reading, but yes.

She was forced into it fairly early in her career, and as part of that process she'd taken binding oaths that prevented her from betraying the Black Ajah "until the hour of her death." So she spent the years compiling a list of as many Black sisters as she could, and when she thought her list was long enough, she drank a slow poison (so that it would be "the hour of her death") and handed the list over to the Aes Sedai.

She was awesome. The death scene was really compelling. The whole thing blindsided me, which I love.


Okay now that is awesome! I'm going to have to re-read and finish the series now.

/Librarian Badass!
 
2013-01-09 04:16:26 PM

Millennium: tillerman35: Yet the fact remains that Robert Jordan DIDN'T write the conclusion to his series. He died before he could. It is simply NOT a book written by Robert Jordan.

And this means surprisingly little. It may surprise you to know that, like all modern fiction, the Wheel of Time novels were written by a team. Robert Jordan played the principal role on that team, but he was a team member nonetheless. Most of that team is intact. RJ himself is gone, but other than the very last book, the editor, the publisher, and even the cover art guy were all there (the cover art guy passed away before the last book could be released.

Just because he tossed off a plot outline, some back story, a few character sketches, pseudo-historical annotations, etc. and then handed it to over to someone else doesn't magically make the actually writing come from him. I know there are people out there desperately wishing there could be another Wheel of Time book and that the series could somehow come to a conclusion. But there won't. And it won't. Ever.

Actually, a fair amount of the writing does come straight from him, including, as it happens, the very last chapter (as Sanderson himself has confirmed). It is true that RJ did not pen every last word of the points between KoD and the very end of AMoL, but this means very little: he did the true heavy lifting of authorship, and then he passed what he'd done to an authorized successor to fill in the words when he was gone.

1. It diminishes the legacy of the original author. You can't ever say "I read a Dune book" and have people understand that you meant "I read a book by Frank Herbert." Dune is no longer the legacy of Frank Herbert. He's merely one of a couple of contributing authors. If the franchise has legs past the participation of Brian Herbert, that might grow to three contributing writers, or four, or ten.

This is absurd. I do not know whether or not Frank Herbert authorized a successor, but it scarcely matters: everyone who has a ...


I vouch for Mistborn and his first novel Elantris as well. Elantris has a Mary Sue main character, but there story is so good I'll give him a pass for it. Mistborn is great, the sequel was pretty good (had a love triangle that wasn't needed), and I haven't read the last book.
 
2013-01-09 04:25:05 PM

shortymac: Mistborn is great, the sequel was pretty good (had a love triangle that wasn't needed), and I haven't read the last book.


I love the ending. There's also a nice post-trilogy story that takes place in the same world during its industrial revolution.

The first book of Sanderson's own epic (Stormlight) is also pretty damn good, although I thought it took a while to get rolling.
 
2013-01-09 05:04:39 PM

Millennium: You've never read any of Sanderson's other works, have you? While AMoL has certainly helped his popularity, he was already building his own before being tapped. Since you apparently worship the ground RJ walked on, I suggest that you start with the Mistborn Trilogy: RJ's wife has said that this is what convinced her that Sanderson was the proper person to carry on his work. Perhaps it will convince you of the same.

In other words, suck it up and deal. You loved the man; we get that, but it has been more than five years now, and there comes a time for grieving to take a back seat. The series has an ending, and it is a great one. Stew in your self-pity if you must, but you'd be much happier if you just read.


I've never read either author, actually. It's the practice itself that I dislike. I find it dishonest, like adding "-flavored" in tiny letters after an ingredient name as if to imply something is the primary component of an item when in fact it's not. Or saying a movie is "inspired by" true events and then having it bear only a cursory similarity to what actually happened. Or MegaBloks very existence.

Every inch devoted of shelf space devoted to Brian Herbert and Todd McCaffery (or this Sanderson guy's Wheel of Time imitations) is an inch that could have a book written by some amazing new author. Instead, they're cluttered with one-offs pandered to people clinging to their love of deceased authors' works. It's sad, really.

You say Sanderson is a good author, right? Then how awesome would it be if he spent his time writing something new and original? That's time behind the keyboard that he'll NEVER get back. He has great series' of his own? Well, in the time it took to assemble Robert Jordan's notes, tune into the style, write, edit, check continuity, etc, Sanderson could have written another book in that series. Maybe one that would have been even better than something he wrote while riding on a dead guy's coat tails.

I find your point about the last chapter interesting though. You could perhaps consider the series "completed" if it truly did have a final chapter written by its author. But none of the nonsense between his last actual work and that chapter would count as his own writing, though. If it's so important to fans that the series have closure, why not publish that one chapter on its own? Diehard fans would pay just as much for those few pages as they would for a full novel.

I also do understand that authors rely heavily on editors. But in the end, the author has the authority to override an editor (at risk of the work not being published, perhaps, but he still has that right). But just because it's edited, authorized, and maybe even really really good- maybe even BETTER than the original- still doesn't mean it's not fan fiction. It's imitation, not actuality.

It's the practice I hate, and the fact that it's become so prevalent in the publishing industry. And it's only going to get worse. You can bet for sure that there will be MANY posthumous Harry Potter sequels, if not immediately (JKR seems pretty savvy about guarding her legacy) then the barest microsecond after it falls into the public domain. Ditto for Twilight (Lord help us) and every other popular book series of the last few decades. It's the norm, not the exception. What a waste of shelf space and talent.
 
2013-01-09 05:42:29 PM

tillerman35: I've never read either author, actually. It's the practice itself that I dislike


You dislike the practice of publishers posthumously carrying on the settings/characters/universe an author created. This situation however isn't analogous to the examples you've used, and is an author who explicitly wanted his his story finished, and entrusted his wife to find someone who would do so. Sanderson continues to do his own work, and accepts it as an honor to be able to see this series to completion, and not only has the blessing but the notes and the guidance of those entrusted to original authors thoughts.

You aren't getting the difference and are confusing your hatred of a practice that isn't as prevelant as you seem to think it is. Living authors selling their name an style as a license to a publisher, like Patterson or Clancy is far more prevelant for example. Even in fantasy it's far more likely for people to be hired to write within the setting of a series (Dragonlance, MechWarrior, ShadowRun) created by living authors than deceased ones.

Given that he's using the original authors note, ending, and having it edited and authorized by the wife of the original author, then it's to fan fiction what an apple is to an orange.

I preferred thinking you were a kind of clever troll instead of an ignorant angry guy who lashes out at anything closely resembling a practice you hate.
 
2013-01-09 05:50:27 PM

tillerman35: It's the practice I hate


Because you're irrationally obsessed with it.

I hope you get in a horrible accident or grow ill and need complicated surgery some day, and in the middle of that procedure, the doctor keels over....And because of your preferences, the original work just left lying there on the table sliced open six ways from Sunday. Hours after everyone up and walks out, or in the case of the doctor, gets carried out, you lie there. Slowly you regain consciousness as the anesthetic wears off, and you begin to feel all that's been done to you.

As you lie there bleeding and in an increasing amount of pain, we'll see if you can maintain that air of smug born of your falsely perceived superior integrity then. That'll be the real test of your obsession.

Everything great about our world has been built upon the work of those that have come before. Science, and government alike, was worked on with the original people knowing they could not see it through to the end, and plans were made so that others could continue the great work.

That's the same case with this author. True, some other franchises are not necessarily so, but in this case, it was expressly his wish. Who are you to gripe about that? What about you makes you think that any of us think what you say matters one single fark?

Unless your answer is "Nothing." You are completely farking wrong.

If you were genuine and steadfast in your manifesto, you would shun all modern technology and only utilize what one man can make, principally you, because it would be somehow sinful to use the fruits of any other being's labors.

You do realize that you didn't create the language which you are using to converse with at us right? You also didn't fabricate the computer you're using to post your drivel with.

You are a vile contaminant unto society, infectious human waste. Now go crawl back into your cave and be bitter and angry there until eventually you die alone, still bitter and angry, where we don't have to hear or see it.

Don't like it, don't read it. Obviously such a high concept for you, I pity you that you don't quite get it.
 
2013-01-09 05:56:40 PM

tillerman35: You say Sanderson is a good author, right? Then how awesome would it be if he spent his time writing something new and original? That's time behind the keyboard that he'll NEVER get back.


Authors need to get paid too. He might not get the time back, but I can guarantee he was compensated for it.
 
2013-01-09 08:29:21 PM

Lumbar Puncture:

Given that he's using the original authors note, ending, and having it edited and authorized by the wife of the original author, then it's to fan fiction what an apple is to an orange.

I preferred thinking you were a kind of clever troll instead of an ignorant angry guy who lashes out at anything closely resembling a practice you hate.


Oh yeah? Well your momma wears... oh, nevermind. No, not a troll. At least not in the sense of "only in it for the reaction" and certainly not intentionally so. Emphatic and opinionated, that I'll cop to. Maybe even a little theatrical at times (but this is Fark, so I don't have to apologize for that). I don't have many hot-button issues, but this is definitely one that puts the sand in my Speedo.

What I think you're saying is that some magical combination of quality talent, availability of good research material and the sanction of someone who is related to an author somehow legitimizes this particular novel. I'm sorry, but I can't buy into that.

For me, none of that stuff matters. Books are more than just words on a page. When I want to read a Darkover book, or a Dune book or a (insert your favorite series name here) book, what I want is a glimpse into the creative genius of the person who created that universe. It's intensely intimate and more than a little voyeuristic. And the fact is that every author is different. You can imitate style. You can do your research. But that indescribable unique quality that each author imparts on his works simply can't be imitated by another author. Or rather it can ONLY be imitated; it can never BE. Once an author passes away, that voice is silent forever. The only windows into that soul are the ones that were previously left open. And I think that no matter how open you are about who writes a posthumous sequel, it's implicitly dishonest to set it next to the works of the original author and somehow claim they are parts of a whole.

The original author of the series might have WANTED this book to be written, but he didn't write it (except for the last chapter, if what I've read above is correct). He might have wanted it so badly that he besought a good friend and colleague to carry on the torch. But he didn't write the book. And can't ever write another. And I'm truly sorry for his fans who probably wanted just one more Robert Jordan book as much as if not more than he wanted to give them one. I don't think their grief excuses the practice, but I definitely sympathize. I'd give my left testicle for a REAL sequel to the Witches of Karres or two dozen or so books and series that I've fallen in love with over the years. Unfortunately, my application to the New Haven Academy of Voodoo and Necromancy was not accepted (something about not being evil enough. Maybe omeganuepsilon's response will be enough to get me in.), so I won't be able to dig up their original authors and hand them pen and paper.
 
2013-01-09 08:37:09 PM

Fish in a Barrel: shortymac: Mistborn is great, the sequel was pretty good (had a love triangle that wasn't needed), and I haven't read the last book.

I love the ending. There's also a nice post-trilogy story that takes place in the same world during its industrial revolution.

The first book of Sanderson's own epic (Stormlight) is also pretty damn good, although I thought it took a while to get rolling.


Mild spoiler!

"Odium killed me. I'm sorry"

/spoiler

Loved that Holy Fark moment!
 
2013-01-09 09:38:24 PM

tillerman35: Millennium: You've never read any of Sanderson's other works, have you? While AMoL has certainly helped his popularity, he was already building his own before being tapped. Since you apparently worship the ground RJ walked on, I suggest that you start with the Mistborn Trilogy: RJ's wife has said that this is what convinced her that Sanderson was the proper person to carry on his work. Perhaps it will convince you of the same.

In other words, suck it up and deal. You loved the man; we get that, but it has been more than five years now, and there comes a time for grieving to take a back seat. The series has an ending, and it is a great one. Stew in your self-pity if you must, but you'd be much happier if you just read.

I've never read either author, actually. It's the practice itself that I dislike. I find it dishonest, like adding "-flavored" in tiny letters after an ingredient name as if to imply something is the primary component of an item when in fact it's not. Or saying a movie is "inspired by" true events and then having it bear only a cursory similarity to what actually happened. Or MegaBloks very existence.

Every inch devoted of shelf space devoted to Brian Herbert and Todd McCaffery (or this Sanderson guy's Wheel of Time imitations) is an inch that could have a book written by some amazing new author. Instead, they're cluttered with one-offs pandered to people clinging to their love of deceased authors' works. It's sad, really.

You say Sanderson is a good author, right? Then how awesome would it be if he spent his time writing something new and original? That's time behind the keyboard that he'll NEVER get back. He has great series' of his own? Well, in the time it took to assemble Robert Jordan's notes, tune into the style, write, edit, check continuity, etc, Sanderson could have written another book in that series. Maybe one that would have been even better than something he wrote while riding on a dead guy's coat tails.

I find your point ...


Dear other farkers in thread, please stop feeding the troll here.
 
2013-01-09 09:49:43 PM

tillerman35: What I think you're saying is that some magical combination of quality talent, availability of good research material and the sanction of someone who is related to an author somehow legitimizes this particular novel. I'm sorry, but I can't buy into that.


You don't have to buy into it, it doesn't make it less so. Again, you're simplifying it to fit your argument. If you find fan fiction where the original author dictated notes, wrote an outline of the major events, complete entire scenes (which are used) and the entire end chapter and then asked for another person to take over because they couldn't finish it, then yeah, you might have a point.

I wouldn't consider WoT to be the best fantasy series (or even the top five), the pace completely dies in some of the books and a lot of pointless exposition is used, but Jordan did what he could to finish his story and they hired another talented writer to fill in the gaps. If anything I give the author credit for being able to be able to give the tools needed to finish his work and trust an another author he'd never meet, all to make sure his work was finished.

The final books are Jordan's story, outline, scenes and ending, only with the details filled in. fark the fans grief or your misguided anger at a practice that isn't similar to what this is, he was a storyteller and in his final days he made damn sure that his story was going to be told, with or without him.

Again, the practice you are comparing it to and the reality of how Sanderson came into finishing this series are not the same thing. You should read up on it instead of being irrationally judgmental of something you obviously don't understand because it comes of as pure ignorance. As a writer and a reader I love the craft and dislike the practice you mention for many of the same reasons you have mentioned, and that's not at all applicable to this situation.
 
2013-01-09 09:51:15 PM

shortymac: Dear other farkers in thread, please stop feeding the troll her


I said the same thing and did so anyway.
 
2013-01-10 12:29:43 AM

tillerman35: I know there are people out there desperately wishing there could be another Wheel of Time book and that the series could somehow come to a conclusion. But there won't. And it won't. Ever.


You post an awful lot of text for someone who's so completely wrong.
 
2013-01-10 07:54:24 AM

Andric: tillerman35: I know there are people out there desperately wishing there could be another Wheel of Time book and that the series could somehow come to a conclusion. But there won't. And it won't. Ever.

You post an awful lot of text for someone who's so completely wrong.


If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshiat.
 
2013-01-11 12:59:16 AM
Well, I just finished my copy of the authorized fan-fiction conclusion, and I'm pretty satisfied. Maybe someday they'll create a technology to bring RJ back so he can write the real ending, though. That or tell tillerman35 he's wrong and to shut up.
 
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