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(NPR)   For 'Wheel Of Time' Fans, The Last Battle Is At Hand. Tai'shar Manetheran. Dovie'andi se tovya sagain   (npr.org) divider line 247
    More: Sappy, Manetheran, time series, Wheel of Time, blood diseases, advance copy  
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3982 clicks; posted to Geek » on 07 Jan 2013 at 6:48 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-08 06:37:09 PM  
Ugh first couple maybe four were great then it totally sucked. In fact, I actually thought it was over after the second (third?) book. Money-grubby authors are annoying.
 
2013-01-08 06:38:31 PM  

dk47: Ugh first couple maybe four were great then it totally sucked. In fact, I actually thought it was over after the second (third?) book. Money-grubby authors are annoying.


Maybe I was just being cynical but that's how I felt as well, although I got to like the 6th or 7th book or thereabouts. I felt like this author had no more story left to tell and was just dragging on nonsense to sell more books.
 
2013-01-08 07:41:15 PM  

Dissociater: Ochiba: I tried. I really tried to like the Jordan series. But man, you have the statement of the problem. You have a brazillion words describing buttons and outfits and fabrics and smells and scenes. And you have the conflict/resolution wrapped up in what I seem to recall in very few paragraphs. Seriously, like this is TO THE MINUTE DETAIL what everything looked like and, oh yeah, the bad guy? He fell down and bumped his head and everyone said YAY! I found it painful to read.

If that's world-building or whatnot, maybe I'm just more a fan of good storytelling and plot progress. But I couldn't finish or make it past the 6th book. I'm not a Jordan fan, but I love the genre. No joy whatsoever derived from this series for me.

Thanks for the Malazan Book of the Fallen recommendation upthread. It's time I find something new (to me) to work on.

A few things to note about the Malazan Book of the Fallen (my two cents, ymmv, etc):

In my opinion it's the best fantasy series ever written, but it's absolutely not for everyone. There are a number of things that I loved that I could see turning off other readers. It's incredibly high fantasy. There is sorcery everywhere, the gods are active and play a big hand in the events of the books (I personally love this as there are far too many books that try to treat magic as some rare mysterious force, which is imo an overused plot tool).

It's also an incredibly original setting with its own rules on magic and gods. The rules are internally consistent, but confusing and a lot of it is never fully explained, but rather you're expected to pick up on it as the story goes on. There are also hundreds of characters, and very few who can be considered main characters. It's an ensemble cast of characters numbering in the dozens who can be listed as 'protagonists' but there is no Rand, or Jon Snow for readers to attach to per se.

Some of the books take place at the same time as other books but in different parts of the worl ...


Malazan Book of the Fallen I only read the first book of, for me it had the opposite problem of Jordan, there was so much plot happening. It had plot density of a short story, which was weird in a book that length. I am not sure if I'll pick up the next book.
 
2013-01-08 07:54:42 PM  

Sheseala: Malazan Book of the Fallen I only read the first book of, for me it had the opposite problem of Jordan, there was so much plot happening. It had plot density of a short story, which was weird in a book that length. I am not sure if I'll pick up the next book.


The first book is the weakest. It was kind of shoehorned in at the request of the publisher for a backstory of sorts, and it suffers a little for it. #2 has one of the best sequences in the series(and one of my favorite, well, in any book).
 
2013-01-08 08:02:25 PM  

Dissociater: dk47: Ugh first couple maybe four were great then it totally sucked. In fact, I actually thought it was over after the second (third?) book. Money-grubby authors are annoying.

Maybe I was just being cynical but that's how I felt as well, although I got to like the 6th or 7th book or thereabouts. I felt like this author had no more story left to tell and was just dragging on nonsense to sell more books.


Now that you mention it, it did have that air about it. Same reason I stopped watching Lost after a couple episodes, simply too nonsensical with a lot of useless filler.

Persevered through the books though, it's easy to flip ahead a few pages.
 
2013-01-08 08:40:59 PM  

Ochiba: Sounds perfect to me, and thanks for the insight. I'm going to order the first two books tomorrow


For the love of god check them out of a library to see if they're your thing first. I've heard the second book gets better, but I read the first book and thought it was terrible. It apparently was written as a screenplay first (so I've heard) but as an avid reader I thought it was tedious and poorly written. The books have many fans and for those that do enjoy it appear to love it a lot, but it is very much a love it or hate it experience. Take it for a test drive before buying in.
 
2013-01-08 08:42:45 PM  

bhcompy: Sheseala: Malazan Book of the Fallen I only read the first book of, for me it had the opposite problem of Jordan, there was so much plot happening. It had plot density of a short story, which was weird in a book that length. I am not sure if I'll pick up the next book.

The first book is the weakest. It was kind of shoehorned in at the request of the publisher for a backstory of sorts, and it suffers a little for it. #2 has one of the best sequences in the series(and one of my favorite, well, in any book).


I still have to give that one a shot sometime. But man I hated that first book.
 
2013-01-08 08:45:44 PM  

Lumbar Puncture: bhcompy: Sheseala: Malazan Book of the Fallen I only read the first book of, for me it had the opposite problem of Jordan, there was so much plot happening. It had plot density of a short story, which was weird in a book that length. I am not sure if I'll pick up the next book.

The first book is the weakest. It was kind of shoehorned in at the request of the publisher for a backstory of sorts, and it suffers a little for it. #2 has one of the best sequences in the series(and one of my favorite, well, in any book).

I still have to give that one a shot sometime. But man I hated that first book.


I would say if you read the second one and you don't like it, don't continue. I feel the first book is a pretty big barrier of entry because it's both the worst book in the series and the hardest to understand because Erikson doesn't explain anything for you(ever).
 
2013-01-08 09:01:39 PM  

LadyBelgara: Melanie Rawn did that for me, with the end of the Exiles trilogy that I've been waiting to read for the last 16 years. I won't touch Game of Thrones until it's finished, either.


It's good to know I'm not the only one still holding a grudge against that lady. Dragon Star/Prince would make people who think Martin kills a lot of characters think again.

bhcompy: I would say if you read the second one and you don't like it, don't continue. I feel the first book is a pretty big barrier of entry because it's both the worst book in the series and the hardest to understand because Erikson doesn't explain anything for you(ever)


That's what bugged me, there's no context for anything.
 
2013-01-08 10:02:53 PM  

Lumbar Puncture: That's what bugged me, there's no context for anything.


Well, it's like the opposite of Dragonlance, basically. The context comes as you read through the books. By book 4 you have a decent grasp on how gods and magic works, among other things. That said, there still is a lot that isn't explicitly told by the end of the 10 books, which leads you to making inferences as to how certain things work based on the data available. It's an interesting approach. The author assumes you're smart and that you can hang and figure it out. How often does an author do that instead of making some really awkward and out of place explanation as to how something works that everyone else already knows?
 
2013-01-08 10:16:51 PM  

bhcompy: Lumbar Puncture: That's what bugged me, there's no context for anything.

Well, it's like the opposite of Dragonlance, basically. The context comes as you read through the books. By book 4 you have a decent grasp on how gods and magic works, among other things. That said, there still is a lot that isn't explicitly told by the end of the 10 books, which leads you to making inferences as to how certain things work based on the data available. It's an interesting approach. The author assumes you're smart and that you can hang and figure it out. How often does an author do that instead of making some really awkward and out of place explanation as to how something works that everyone else already knows?


It's possible to give contextual cues about situations without smacking the audience in the face with a contrived explanation. I don't need to know what the Shrike in the Hyperion Cantos is never really explored or explained and it is never a detriment to the story. Malazon Book One gives the reader so little information that anything cool comes off as confusing or bullshiat Deus Ex Machina or just a bunch of stuff that's sort of going on to some random people that for a long time we aren't given any reason to give a shiat about.

I'm fine with the author assuming I'm smart and can infer information from the tale. Book One doesn't come off as that, it comes off as bad storytelling. I'm still going to give the second book a chance sometime because fans have said it gets better and you can tell people really love those books.
 
2013-01-08 11:13:14 PM  
Just tapped out....  Spoiler free review: you don't need to pick this up if you've already abandoned the series, you'll probably be reasonably happy with it if you haven't.  Skirting the edge of spoilers -- it's really disconcerting to see that collection of characters get that much done in one book.

I agree with this. Early Mat was an annoying little shiat. After he made his bargain, he transformed into an awesome character.

Minor disagreement.  I'd argue it's really his transformation in Book Three that sets him up, and really carries him through to book 7.  9-11 are really great.  But Sanderson really doesn't understand how to write him, so he falls off in 12-14.
 
2013-01-09 02:26:56 AM  

TheMysticS: Thank you! :) I would probably be a Green Ajah as well, they seem to be the tomboy types. Though I really like learning so I might have gone Brown Ajah but actually be out in the world.

I think I'm already Brown ajah....


Verin Sedai went out in an epic way, demonstrating the power of their way of thinking.
 
2013-01-09 10:35:41 AM  
First thing I noticed is that that pages are tissue thin--like a Bible. I guess that's what you need to do when the book is 900 pages.
 
2013-01-09 10:50:23 AM  

Fish in a Barrel: First thing I noticed is that that pages are tissue thin--like a Bible. I guess that's what you need to do when the book is 900 pages.


RJ vowed that Book 12 would be the last in the series, even if they needed to invent a new way to bind books to make it happen. Then it turned out that they really did need to invent a new way to bind books to make it happen, which is why Book 14 is the last in the series. Sorry, RJ.
 
2013-01-09 11:52:58 AM  
Wait, so does Shota let Richard and Kahlan finally have a baby?
 
2013-01-09 12:01:03 PM  

neongoats: tillerman35: bhcompy:
Sanderson is a better writer than Jordan and has imagination on par with Jordan(Jordan's primary strength).

So he's a really GOOD fan fiction author. It still doesn't change the fact that he's ripping off a dead guy's life's work. There are a good authors on www.fanfiction.net too. Maybe he should contribute to the Harry Potter forum. If he's into the erotic stuff, he could even do a mash-up and have Hermione Granger do a four-way with Rand al'Thor, Perrin Aybara, and Matrim Cauthon.

So, explicitly chosen by the now dead guy and his wife/editor to complete a long running series, literally his life's work, is "ripping him off"? You realize that Robert Jordan literally spent the last months of his life explicitly planning, writing, organizing and basically rough drafting the conclusion to his series so that Sanderson could finish it, right?

Troll.


Yet the fact remains that Robert Jordan DIDN'T write the conclusion to his series. He died before he could. It is simply NOT a book written by Robert Jordan. There's no gray area here. Just because he tossed off a plot outline, some back story, a few character sketches, pseudo-historical annotations, etc. and then handed it to over to someone else doesn't magically make the actually writing come from him. I know there are people out there desperately wishing there could be another Wheel of Time book and that the series could somehow come to a conclusion. But there won't. And it won't. Ever.

Here's why crap like this is bad:
1. It diminishes the legacy of the original author. You can't ever say "I read a Dune book" and have people understand that you meant "I read a book by Frank Herbert." Dune is no longer the legacy of Frank Herbert. He's merely one of a couple of contributing authors. If the franchise has legs past the participation of Brian Herbert, that might grow to three contributing writers, or four, or ten.
2. The original author has no control over the final product. Because he's dead. He has no chance to look at the final draft and say "that was a nice try, but it wasn't where I wanted to go. Change this, this, that, and this and get back to me when you're done." Mind you, that wouldn't make it HIS, but it's still another reason why crap like this sucks.
3. It diminishes the contribution of the authorized fanfic writer. Even though he wrote the entire novel, he'll never see it under his own name on a book shelf. Unless, that is he shares a last name with the original author (which is why the publishing industry is so willing to con sons, cousins, grandkids, etc. into "keeping the flame alive")
4. It prevents the authorized fanfic writer from gaining popularity in his/her own right. Brian Herbert might have been able to create and bring to life amazing and incredible new universes of his own. But we'll never know that because he's stuck cranking out books in a universe he ripped off from his father.

Posthumous (and worse, near-posthumous) fan fiction is nothing more than the big bags of cereal at the end of the aisle with names like "Weise Crispies," "Toasty-O's," and "Tootie Fruities." They might look the same as the brand name cereals they imitate. The might taste the same as the brand name cereals they imitate. They might even taste BETTER than the brand name cereals they imitate. But they'll never BE the brand name cereals they imitate. And for the same reason, anything not written by Robert Jordan can ever BE a Wheel of Time book.
 
2013-01-09 12:05:33 PM  

Alphax: TheMysticS: Thank you! :) I would probably be a Green Ajah as well, they seem to be the tomboy types. Though I really like learning so I might have gone Brown Ajah but actually be out in the world.

I think I'm already Brown ajah....

Verin Sedai went out in an epic way, demonstrating the power of their way of thinking.


That was one of my favorite plotlines. Out of the 10,000 involved.
 
2013-01-09 12:48:26 PM  

tanman1975: Wait, so does Shota let Richard and Kahlan finally have a baby?


Yes, but under the condition that it is a rape baby.
 
2013-01-09 01:04:27 PM  
I know there are people out there desperately wishing there could be another Wheel of Time book and that the series could somehow come to a conclusion. But there won't. And it won't. Ever.

Sure there is, it came out yesterday.

Here's why crap like this is bad:
1. It diminishes the legacy of the original author. You can't ever say "I read a Dune book" and have people understand that you meant "I read a book by Frank Herbert." Dune is no longer the legacy of Frank Herbert. He's merely one of a couple of contributing authors. If the franchise has legs past the participation of Brian Herbert, that might grow to three contributing writers, or four, or ten.


Saying it diminishes the original author because of some bullshiat slippery slope argument is complete bullshiat. Given that the dying wishes of Rigney (who wrote as Jordan) was to have someone finish his work and not leave his legacy incomplete, I'd side with the wishes of the author in regards to how his property is handled.

2. The original author has no control over the final product. Because he's dead. He has no chance to look at the final draft and say "that was a nice try, but it wasn't where I wanted to go. Change this, this, that, and this and get back to me when you're done." Mind you, that wouldn't make it HIS, but it's still another reason why crap like this sucks.

His wife and the editors who worked with the author and knew his wishes better than you or I may ever know however did have control over the final product, and it was carefully reviewed by them.

3. It diminishes the contribution of the authorized fanfic writer. Even though he wrote the entire novel, he'll never see it under his own name on a book shelf. Unless, that is he shares a last name with the original author (which is why the publishing industry is so willing to con sons, cousins, grandkids, etc. into "keeping the flame alive")

Sanderson's name is on the cover right under Jordan's and has been for the books he's written, so factually incorrect.

4. It prevents the authorized fanfic writer from gaining popularity in his/her own right. Brian Herbert might have been able to create and bring to life amazing and incredible new universes of his own. But we'll never know that because he's stuck cranking out books in a universe he ripped off from his father.

Sanderson was already a well respected fantasy author in his own right and has multiple universes of his own that he writes about, having recently started a second Mistborn trilogy, started the Stormlight series, and later this year is releasing a new Young Adult series.

you can see how people would assume you are trolling, I mean you are either so woefully uninformed about the author and the books you are trying to talk about that it's a wonder you are chiming in with an opinion at all, much less attempting to sound like an authority on the subject.
 
2013-01-09 01:05:17 PM  
Oops, farked up closing a tag.
 
2013-01-09 01:10:26 PM  

NobleHam: DarkLancelot: DonkeyDixon: neongoats: Who is to say that "our" age is the age that follows the events in the books?

I don't think RJ was planning to permakill his literary universe by killing off the magic system. he wasn't dying for most of the series after all.

Agreed. Not to mention our times being referenced in Eye of the World. If those were from a prior turning of the Wheel through the First Age, you'd be looking at about 50,000 years give or take, and the memories of the memories of the myths of those legends would have been long forgotten.

I still think our age was not the First Age as people like to claim.  I think we are the one just before it as the portal stones are from there and they are surely magical.  Plus the ties to our time look ultra mythic, not as close as I think it should.

On another note, I read this (starting in 1990) and trudged up to Book 11, which was the first book I've just put down and said "I can't read this crap anymore, I think only one day passed in this 900 pages."  Since I've heard good things about Sanderson I'm rereading the series but I am not looking forward to a few of them.

Well, "Tamyrlin"/Merlin was supposedly the first magic user. I dunno if that's canon or not. I think we should assume the Second Age was really long though.

As for your second paragraph, I think you mean Book 10. That one was awful, and yes, took place pretty much in a single day with absolutely nothing of importance happening, except maybe some crap in Elayne's storyline--which is forgettable and went on way too long. 11 actually started to get good again, then he died, and 12 and 13 actually are good.


Quit hateing on Knife of Dreams. Yes the Perrin rescue story line got WAY WAY too long but the Matt Tuon story line from that book is one of my faves.

Im thinking that the Perrin - Seanchan connection will come into play as going into the last battle.
 
2013-01-09 01:19:16 PM  

TheMysticS: Alphax: TheMysticS: Thank you! :) I would probably be a Green Ajah as well, they seem to be the tomboy types. Though I really like learning so I might have gone Brown Ajah but actually be out in the world.

I think I'm already Brown ajah....

Verin Sedai went out in an epic way, demonstrating the power of their way of thinking.

That was one of my favorite plotlines. Out of the 10,000 involved.


Oh I loved her! I had to look her up in the wiki but she would be the type of Brown Ajah I would be.
 
2013-01-09 02:24:44 PM  
To any one who thinks some of the WoT books are too slow and want to get to the end of the story or Anyone who wants a review before reading the last boo I would recommend:

http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/

They have a breakdown of all the characters and all the books. With a 1 to 5 paragraph summery of each chapter of each book.

In face when I read the books I like to go to the site after reading each chapter to read the summery to see if I missed any important details.
 
2013-01-09 02:41:52 PM  

shortymac: Oh I loved her! I had to look her up in the wiki but she would be the type of Brown Ajah I would be.


So, you like black?
 
2013-01-09 02:51:08 PM  

tillerman35: Yet the fact remains that Robert Jordan DIDN'T write the conclusion to his series. He died before he could. It is simply NOT a book written by Robert Jordan.


And this means surprisingly little. It may surprise you to know that, like all modern fiction, the Wheel of Time novels were written by a team. Robert Jordan played the principal role on that team, but he was a team member nonetheless. Most of that team is intact. RJ himself is gone, but other than the very last book, the editor, the publisher, and even the cover art guy were all there (the cover art guy passed away before the last book could be released.

Just because he tossed off a plot outline, some back story, a few character sketches, pseudo-historical annotations, etc. and then handed it to over to someone else doesn't magically make the actually writing come from him. I know there are people out there desperately wishing there could be another Wheel of Time book and that the series could somehow come to a conclusion. But there won't. And it won't. Ever.

Actually, a fair amount of the writing does come straight from him, including, as it happens, the very last chapter (as Sanderson himself has confirmed). It is true that RJ did not pen every last word of the points between KoD and the very end of AMoL, but this means very little: he did the true heavy lifting of authorship, and then he passed what he'd done to an authorized successor to fill in the words when he was gone.

1. It diminishes the legacy of the original author. You can't ever say "I read a Dune book" and have people understand that you meant "I read a book by Frank Herbert." Dune is no longer the legacy of Frank Herbert. He's merely one of a couple of contributing authors. If the franchise has legs past the participation of Brian Herbert, that might grow to three contributing writers, or four, or ten.

This is absurd. I do not know whether or not Frank Herbert authorized a successor, but it scarcely matters: everyone who has any familiarity whatsoever with Dune continues to associate it with Frank Herbert, and rightly so. His legacy is in no way diminished, and neither is RJ's.

2. The original author has no control over the final product. Because he's dead. He has no chance to look at the final draft and say "that was a nice try, but it wasn't where I wanted to go. Change this, this, that, and this and get back to me when you're done." Mind you, that wouldn't make it HIS, but it's still another reason why crap like this sucks.

Professional authors work with editors, and RJ was no different: his editor happened to also be his wife, but that means little. That editing team is intact, and headed by someone uniquely qualified to know RJ's voice. It has not been altered. There is also the matter of RJ's final notes, which were apparently drawn up in ludicrous detail by a man who knew he was going to die without finishing the novel and wanted it to be written anyway. Sanderson and the rest of the team were able to work with the best possible confidence in knowing where RJ wanted to go.

3. It diminishes the contribution of the authorized fanfic writer. Even though he wrote the entire novel, he'll never see it under his own name on a book shelf. Unless, that is he shares a last name with the original author (which is why the publishing industry is so willing to con sons, cousins, grandkids, etc. into "keeping the flame alive")

And the "authorized fanfic writer" is OK with that. He still gets his name in big block letters on the cover and the spine, but in a way that respects where the work came from. His contribution, as he sees it, is in no way diminished, and his opinion is what matters. Not yours.

4. It prevents the authorized fanfic writer from gaining popularity in his/her own right. Brian Herbert might have been able to create and bring to life amazing and incredible new universes of his own. But we'll never know that because he's stuck cranking out ...

You've never read any of Sanderson's other works, have you? While AMoL has certainly helped his popularity, he was already building his own before being tapped. Since you apparently worship the ground RJ walked on, I suggest that you start with the Mistborn Trilogy: RJ's wife has said that this is what convinced her that Sanderson was the proper person to carry on his work. Perhaps it will convince you of the same.

In other words, suck it up and deal. You loved the man; we get that, but it has been more than five years now, and there comes a time for grieving to take a back seat. The series has an ending, and it is a great one. Stew in your self-pity if you must, but you'd be much happier if you just read.
 
2013-01-09 03:14:54 PM  

Zafler: shortymac: Oh I loved her! I had to look her up in the wiki but she would be the type of Brown Ajah I would be.

So, you like black?


Was she? I stopped in book 10 and it's been 10 years since I have read them.
 
2013-01-09 03:23:18 PM  

shortymac: Zafler: shortymac: Oh I loved her! I had to look her up in the wiki but she would be the type of Brown Ajah I would be.

So, you like black?

Was she? I stopped in book 10 and it's been 10 years since I have read them.


It's a spoiler, and it wasn't mentioned in the series by the time you stopped reading, but yes.

She was forced into it fairly early in her career, and as part of that process she'd taken binding oaths that prevented her from betraying the Black Ajah "until the hour of her death." So she spent the years compiling a list of as many Black sisters as she could, and when she thought her list was long enough, she drank a slow poison (so that it would be "the hour of her death") and handed the list over to the Aes Sedai.
 
2013-01-09 03:24:25 PM  

shortymac: Zafler: shortymac: Oh I loved her! I had to look her up in the wiki but she would be the type of Brown Ajah I would be.

So, you like black?

Was she? I stopped in book 10 and it's been 10 years since I have read them.


Innuendo aside, the wiki has spoilers. Also, as others have said, the 10th book is basically the worst for plot development and events.

/If I were female, I'd be a combination of white and green probably.
 
2013-01-09 03:25:14 PM  
Millennium

So much for my spoiler free posting.
 
2013-01-09 03:45:27 PM  

Zafler: shortymac: Zafler: shortymac: Oh I loved her! I had to look her up in the wiki but she would be the type of Brown Ajah I would be.

So, you like black?

Was she? I stopped in book 10 and it's been 10 years since I have read them.

Innuendo aside, the wiki has spoilers. Also, as others have said, the 10th book is basically the worst for plot development and events.

/If I were female, I'd be a combination of white and green probably.


Spoiler: She was a mole in the Black Ajah
 
2013-01-09 03:54:10 PM  

Millennium: shortymac: Zafler: shortymac: Oh I loved her! I had to look her up in the wiki but she would be the type of Brown Ajah I would be.

So, you like black?

Was she? I stopped in book 10 and it's been 10 years since I have read them.

It's a spoiler, and it wasn't mentioned in the series by the time you stopped reading, but yes.

She was forced into it fairly early in her career, and as part of that process she'd taken binding oaths that prevented her from betraying the Black Ajah "until the hour of her death." So she spent the years compiling a list of as many Black sisters as she could, and when she thought her list was long enough, she drank a slow poison (so that it would be "the hour of her death") and handed the list over to the Aes Sedai.


She was awesome. The death scene was really compelling. The whole thing blindsided me, which I love.
 
2013-01-09 04:12:46 PM  

TheMysticS: Millennium: shortymac: Zafler: shortymac: Oh I loved her! I had to look her up in the wiki but she would be the type of Brown Ajah I would be.

So, you like black?

Was she? I stopped in book 10 and it's been 10 years since I have read them.

It's a spoiler, and it wasn't mentioned in the series by the time you stopped reading, but yes.

She was forced into it fairly early in her career, and as part of that process she'd taken binding oaths that prevented her from betraying the Black Ajah "until the hour of her death." So she spent the years compiling a list of as many Black sisters as she could, and when she thought her list was long enough, she drank a slow poison (so that it would be "the hour of her death") and handed the list over to the Aes Sedai.

She was awesome. The death scene was really compelling. The whole thing blindsided me, which I love.


Okay now that is awesome! I'm going to have to re-read and finish the series now.

/Librarian Badass!
 
2013-01-09 04:16:26 PM  

Millennium: tillerman35: Yet the fact remains that Robert Jordan DIDN'T write the conclusion to his series. He died before he could. It is simply NOT a book written by Robert Jordan.

And this means surprisingly little. It may surprise you to know that, like all modern fiction, the Wheel of Time novels were written by a team. Robert Jordan played the principal role on that team, but he was a team member nonetheless. Most of that team is intact. RJ himself is gone, but other than the very last book, the editor, the publisher, and even the cover art guy were all there (the cover art guy passed away before the last book could be released.

Just because he tossed off a plot outline, some back story, a few character sketches, pseudo-historical annotations, etc. and then handed it to over to someone else doesn't magically make the actually writing come from him. I know there are people out there desperately wishing there could be another Wheel of Time book and that the series could somehow come to a conclusion. But there won't. And it won't. Ever.

Actually, a fair amount of the writing does come straight from him, including, as it happens, the very last chapter (as Sanderson himself has confirmed). It is true that RJ did not pen every last word of the points between KoD and the very end of AMoL, but this means very little: he did the true heavy lifting of authorship, and then he passed what he'd done to an authorized successor to fill in the words when he was gone.

1. It diminishes the legacy of the original author. You can't ever say "I read a Dune book" and have people understand that you meant "I read a book by Frank Herbert." Dune is no longer the legacy of Frank Herbert. He's merely one of a couple of contributing authors. If the franchise has legs past the participation of Brian Herbert, that might grow to three contributing writers, or four, or ten.

This is absurd. I do not know whether or not Frank Herbert authorized a successor, but it scarcely matters: everyone who has a ...


I vouch for Mistborn and his first novel Elantris as well. Elantris has a Mary Sue main character, but there story is so good I'll give him a pass for it. Mistborn is great, the sequel was pretty good (had a love triangle that wasn't needed), and I haven't read the last book.
 
2013-01-09 04:25:05 PM  

shortymac: Mistborn is great, the sequel was pretty good (had a love triangle that wasn't needed), and I haven't read the last book.


I love the ending. There's also a nice post-trilogy story that takes place in the same world during its industrial revolution.

The first book of Sanderson's own epic (Stormlight) is also pretty damn good, although I thought it took a while to get rolling.
 
2013-01-09 05:04:39 PM  

Millennium: You've never read any of Sanderson's other works, have you? While AMoL has certainly helped his popularity, he was already building his own before being tapped. Since you apparently worship the ground RJ walked on, I suggest that you start with the Mistborn Trilogy: RJ's wife has said that this is what convinced her that Sanderson was the proper person to carry on his work. Perhaps it will convince you of the same.

In other words, suck it up and deal. You loved the man; we get that, but it has been more than five years now, and there comes a time for grieving to take a back seat. The series has an ending, and it is a great one. Stew in your self-pity if you must, but you'd be much happier if you just read.


I've never read either author, actually. It's the practice itself that I dislike. I find it dishonest, like adding "-flavored" in tiny letters after an ingredient name as if to imply something is the primary component of an item when in fact it's not. Or saying a movie is "inspired by" true events and then having it bear only a cursory similarity to what actually happened. Or MegaBloks very existence.

Every inch devoted of shelf space devoted to Brian Herbert and Todd McCaffery (or this Sanderson guy's Wheel of Time imitations) is an inch that could have a book written by some amazing new author. Instead, they're cluttered with one-offs pandered to people clinging to their love of deceased authors' works. It's sad, really.

You say Sanderson is a good author, right? Then how awesome would it be if he spent his time writing something new and original? That's time behind the keyboard that he'll NEVER get back. He has great series' of his own? Well, in the time it took to assemble Robert Jordan's notes, tune into the style, write, edit, check continuity, etc, Sanderson could have written another book in that series. Maybe one that would have been even better than something he wrote while riding on a dead guy's coat tails.

I find your point about the last chapter interesting though. You could perhaps consider the series "completed" if it truly did have a final chapter written by its author. But none of the nonsense between his last actual work and that chapter would count as his own writing, though. If it's so important to fans that the series have closure, why not publish that one chapter on its own? Diehard fans would pay just as much for those few pages as they would for a full novel.

I also do understand that authors rely heavily on editors. But in the end, the author has the authority to override an editor (at risk of the work not being published, perhaps, but he still has that right). But just because it's edited, authorized, and maybe even really really good- maybe even BETTER than the original- still doesn't mean it's not fan fiction. It's imitation, not actuality.

It's the practice I hate, and the fact that it's become so prevalent in the publishing industry. And it's only going to get worse. You can bet for sure that there will be MANY posthumous Harry Potter sequels, if not immediately (JKR seems pretty savvy about guarding her legacy) then the barest microsecond after it falls into the public domain. Ditto for Twilight (Lord help us) and every other popular book series of the last few decades. It's the norm, not the exception. What a waste of shelf space and talent.
 
2013-01-09 05:42:29 PM  

tillerman35: I've never read either author, actually. It's the practice itself that I dislike


You dislike the practice of publishers posthumously carrying on the settings/characters/universe an author created. This situation however isn't analogous to the examples you've used, and is an author who explicitly wanted his his story finished, and entrusted his wife to find someone who would do so. Sanderson continues to do his own work, and accepts it as an honor to be able to see this series to completion, and not only has the blessing but the notes and the guidance of those entrusted to original authors thoughts.

You aren't getting the difference and are confusing your hatred of a practice that isn't as prevelant as you seem to think it is. Living authors selling their name an style as a license to a publisher, like Patterson or Clancy is far more prevelant for example. Even in fantasy it's far more likely for people to be hired to write within the setting of a series (Dragonlance, MechWarrior, ShadowRun) created by living authors than deceased ones.

Given that he's using the original authors note, ending, and having it edited and authorized by the wife of the original author, then it's to fan fiction what an apple is to an orange.

I preferred thinking you were a kind of clever troll instead of an ignorant angry guy who lashes out at anything closely resembling a practice you hate.
 
2013-01-09 05:50:27 PM  

tillerman35: It's the practice I hate


Because you're irrationally obsessed with it.

I hope you get in a horrible accident or grow ill and need complicated surgery some day, and in the middle of that procedure, the doctor keels over....And because of your preferences, the original work just left lying there on the table sliced open six ways from Sunday. Hours after everyone up and walks out, or in the case of the doctor, gets carried out, you lie there. Slowly you regain consciousness as the anesthetic wears off, and you begin to feel all that's been done to you.

As you lie there bleeding and in an increasing amount of pain, we'll see if you can maintain that air of smug born of your falsely perceived superior integrity then. That'll be the real test of your obsession.

Everything great about our world has been built upon the work of those that have come before. Science, and government alike, was worked on with the original people knowing they could not see it through to the end, and plans were made so that others could continue the great work.

That's the same case with this author. True, some other franchises are not necessarily so, but in this case, it was expressly his wish. Who are you to gripe about that? What about you makes you think that any of us think what you say matters one single fark?

Unless your answer is "Nothing." You are completely farking wrong.

If you were genuine and steadfast in your manifesto, you would shun all modern technology and only utilize what one man can make, principally you, because it would be somehow sinful to use the fruits of any other being's labors.

You do realize that you didn't create the language which you are using to converse with at us right? You also didn't fabricate the computer you're using to post your drivel with.

You are a vile contaminant unto society, infectious human waste. Now go crawl back into your cave and be bitter and angry there until eventually you die alone, still bitter and angry, where we don't have to hear or see it.

Don't like it, don't read it. Obviously such a high concept for you, I pity you that you don't quite get it.
 
2013-01-09 05:56:40 PM  

tillerman35: You say Sanderson is a good author, right? Then how awesome would it be if he spent his time writing something new and original? That's time behind the keyboard that he'll NEVER get back.


Authors need to get paid too. He might not get the time back, but I can guarantee he was compensated for it.
 
2013-01-09 08:29:21 PM  

Lumbar Puncture:

Given that he's using the original authors note, ending, and having it edited and authorized by the wife of the original author, then it's to fan fiction what an apple is to an orange.

I preferred thinking you were a kind of clever troll instead of an ignorant angry guy who lashes out at anything closely resembling a practice you hate.


Oh yeah? Well your momma wears... oh, nevermind. No, not a troll. At least not in the sense of "only in it for the reaction" and certainly not intentionally so. Emphatic and opinionated, that I'll cop to. Maybe even a little theatrical at times (but this is Fark, so I don't have to apologize for that). I don't have many hot-button issues, but this is definitely one that puts the sand in my Speedo.

What I think you're saying is that some magical combination of quality talent, availability of good research material and the sanction of someone who is related to an author somehow legitimizes this particular novel. I'm sorry, but I can't buy into that.

For me, none of that stuff matters. Books are more than just words on a page. When I want to read a Darkover book, or a Dune book or a (insert your favorite series name here) book, what I want is a glimpse into the creative genius of the person who created that universe. It's intensely intimate and more than a little voyeuristic. And the fact is that every author is different. You can imitate style. You can do your research. But that indescribable unique quality that each author imparts on his works simply can't be imitated by another author. Or rather it can ONLY be imitated; it can never BE. Once an author passes away, that voice is silent forever. The only windows into that soul are the ones that were previously left open. And I think that no matter how open you are about who writes a posthumous sequel, it's implicitly dishonest to set it next to the works of the original author and somehow claim they are parts of a whole.

The original author of the series might have WANTED this book to be written, but he didn't write it (except for the last chapter, if what I've read above is correct). He might have wanted it so badly that he besought a good friend and colleague to carry on the torch. But he didn't write the book. And can't ever write another. And I'm truly sorry for his fans who probably wanted just one more Robert Jordan book as much as if not more than he wanted to give them one. I don't think their grief excuses the practice, but I definitely sympathize. I'd give my left testicle for a REAL sequel to the Witches of Karres or two dozen or so books and series that I've fallen in love with over the years. Unfortunately, my application to the New Haven Academy of Voodoo and Necromancy was not accepted (something about not being evil enough. Maybe omeganuepsilon's response will be enough to get me in.), so I won't be able to dig up their original authors and hand them pen and paper.
 
2013-01-09 08:37:09 PM  

Fish in a Barrel: shortymac: Mistborn is great, the sequel was pretty good (had a love triangle that wasn't needed), and I haven't read the last book.

I love the ending. There's also a nice post-trilogy story that takes place in the same world during its industrial revolution.

The first book of Sanderson's own epic (Stormlight) is also pretty damn good, although I thought it took a while to get rolling.


Mild spoiler!

"Odium killed me. I'm sorry"

/spoiler

Loved that Holy Fark moment!
 
2013-01-09 09:38:24 PM  

tillerman35: Millennium: You've never read any of Sanderson's other works, have you? While AMoL has certainly helped his popularity, he was already building his own before being tapped. Since you apparently worship the ground RJ walked on, I suggest that you start with the Mistborn Trilogy: RJ's wife has said that this is what convinced her that Sanderson was the proper person to carry on his work. Perhaps it will convince you of the same.

In other words, suck it up and deal. You loved the man; we get that, but it has been more than five years now, and there comes a time for grieving to take a back seat. The series has an ending, and it is a great one. Stew in your self-pity if you must, but you'd be much happier if you just read.

I've never read either author, actually. It's the practice itself that I dislike. I find it dishonest, like adding "-flavored" in tiny letters after an ingredient name as if to imply something is the primary component of an item when in fact it's not. Or saying a movie is "inspired by" true events and then having it bear only a cursory similarity to what actually happened. Or MegaBloks very existence.

Every inch devoted of shelf space devoted to Brian Herbert and Todd McCaffery (or this Sanderson guy's Wheel of Time imitations) is an inch that could have a book written by some amazing new author. Instead, they're cluttered with one-offs pandered to people clinging to their love of deceased authors' works. It's sad, really.

You say Sanderson is a good author, right? Then how awesome would it be if he spent his time writing something new and original? That's time behind the keyboard that he'll NEVER get back. He has great series' of his own? Well, in the time it took to assemble Robert Jordan's notes, tune into the style, write, edit, check continuity, etc, Sanderson could have written another book in that series. Maybe one that would have been even better than something he wrote while riding on a dead guy's coat tails.

I find your point ...


Dear other farkers in thread, please stop feeding the troll here.
 
2013-01-09 09:49:43 PM  

tillerman35: What I think you're saying is that some magical combination of quality talent, availability of good research material and the sanction of someone who is related to an author somehow legitimizes this particular novel. I'm sorry, but I can't buy into that.


You don't have to buy into it, it doesn't make it less so. Again, you're simplifying it to fit your argument. If you find fan fiction where the original author dictated notes, wrote an outline of the major events, complete entire scenes (which are used) and the entire end chapter and then asked for another person to take over because they couldn't finish it, then yeah, you might have a point.

I wouldn't consider WoT to be the best fantasy series (or even the top five), the pace completely dies in some of the books and a lot of pointless exposition is used, but Jordan did what he could to finish his story and they hired another talented writer to fill in the gaps. If anything I give the author credit for being able to be able to give the tools needed to finish his work and trust an another author he'd never meet, all to make sure his work was finished.

The final books are Jordan's story, outline, scenes and ending, only with the details filled in. fark the fans grief or your misguided anger at a practice that isn't similar to what this is, he was a storyteller and in his final days he made damn sure that his story was going to be told, with or without him.

Again, the practice you are comparing it to and the reality of how Sanderson came into finishing this series are not the same thing. You should read up on it instead of being irrationally judgmental of something you obviously don't understand because it comes of as pure ignorance. As a writer and a reader I love the craft and dislike the practice you mention for many of the same reasons you have mentioned, and that's not at all applicable to this situation.
 
2013-01-09 09:51:15 PM  

shortymac: Dear other farkers in thread, please stop feeding the troll her


I said the same thing and did so anyway.
 
2013-01-10 12:29:43 AM  

tillerman35: I know there are people out there desperately wishing there could be another Wheel of Time book and that the series could somehow come to a conclusion. But there won't. And it won't. Ever.


You post an awful lot of text for someone who's so completely wrong.
 
2013-01-10 07:54:24 AM  

Andric: tillerman35: I know there are people out there desperately wishing there could be another Wheel of Time book and that the series could somehow come to a conclusion. But there won't. And it won't. Ever.

You post an awful lot of text for someone who's so completely wrong.


If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshiat.
 
2013-01-11 12:59:16 AM  
Well, I just finished my copy of the authorized fan-fiction conclusion, and I'm pretty satisfied. Maybe someday they'll create a technology to bring RJ back so he can write the real ending, though. That or tell tillerman35 he's wrong and to shut up.
 
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