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(Time)   Which US Senator just suggested that maybe we don't need to be sending billions of dollars a year in aid to a country with a GDP of $30,000 per capita? RAND PAUL   (world.time.com) divider line 148
    More: Interesting, US Senator, GDP, military aid  
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5500 clicks; posted to Politics » on 07 Jan 2013 at 11:01 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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vpb [TotalFark]
2013-01-07 08:17:21 AM  
Israel can afford to pay it's own way I think, but they will never be cut off.  Most of that money doesn't go to Israel, it's credit for buying things in the US, especially military equipment.

Every dime of it has a congressman and two senators protecting it.
 
2013-01-07 08:18:21 AM  
"Foreign aid" is the contemporary term for "tribute."  If you can't state what you're paying tribute for maybe it's unwarranted.
 
2013-01-07 08:22:02 AM  
Stopped clock, etc...
 
2013-01-07 08:51:23 AM  

xanadian: Stopped clock, etc...


A stopped clock is right twice a day, so what does that make Rand Paul? 1/50th of a stopped clock? Or, since being right is a 2/day power, does he just blow it every day by saying, "The sky is blue" and "I'm an idiot"? I once played D&D with a guy who liked to do that- he'd blow limited use powers on stupid stuff, even when he knew we were going adventuring later that day. No, especially then.
 
2013-01-07 08:56:45 AM  

doyner: "Foreign aid" is the contemporary term for "tribute."  If you can't state what you're paying tribute for maybe it's unwarranted.


I'm still trying to figure out any logistic reason that the U.S. aids Israel.  They are no threat to us, and we don't especially need them for anything.  Best I can tell it's 100% religiously motivated.
 
2013-01-07 09:02:32 AM  

nekom: They are no threat to us, and we don't especially need them for anything.  Best I can tell it's 100% religiously motivated.


If you subscribe to interventionist foreign policies, having friendly satellite states makes sense. Considering the Middle East is both a volatile and geopolitically valuable region to control, there's a definite logic to it.
 
2013-01-07 09:07:53 AM  

t3knomanser: If you subscribe to interventionist foreign policies, having friendly satellite states makes sense. Considering the Middle East is both a volatile and geopolitically valuable region to control, there's a definite logic to it.


By that same logic though, Iraq may have made sense, and I don't see any real advantage to having a non-Saddam government there, from the U.S. perspective anyway.  Besides, a lot of Israel's neighbors are among the more western friendly middle eastern states, Egypt and Lebanon especially, while they may have their own internal problems they don't strike me as any meaningful threat to U.S. interests.  Now Israel can and has done things that politically the U.S. has been unwilling to do, and you'll certainly find no better ally in a global war on Islamic terrorism than Israel, but it hardly seems worth it to me.  Israel does a damn good job of killing people they want dead, but nothing the U.S. could not do on its own if desired.
 
2013-01-07 09:08:55 AM  

nekom: but it hardly seems worth it to me


I don't disagree, but you can see why some people might.
 
2013-01-07 09:21:54 AM  

t3knomanser: If you subscribe to interventionist foreign policies, having friendly satellite states makes sense. Considering the Middle East is both a volatile and geopolitically valuable region to control, there's a definite logic to it.


I get what you're saying, but even under that paradigm, there's a smidge of difference between a friendly satellite state that helps work towards stability in a region and a "friendly satellite state" that not only has been a target of hate from its poorly designed conception, has intensified that hatred through a series of policies of debatable legal merit, and answers all threats with a thinly veiled "fark you, not only do we have 'secret' nukes, we've got the world's remaining superpower by the nards and if you give us an awkward eye we'll pull."
 
2013-01-07 09:32:41 AM  
1) Government money given to Israel
2) Israeli purchase weapon systems form US defense companies
3) defense companies help elect US politicians (go to 1)
 
2013-01-07 09:42:29 AM  

incendi: I get what you're saying, but even under that paradigm,


Yes, but once the decision has been made, it's very hard to unmake. Institutional decision-making doesn't really support that, "Oh, wait, this was a bad idea. Let's stop."
 
2013-01-07 09:44:48 AM  

nekom: doyner: "Foreign aid" is the contemporary term for "tribute."  If you can't state what you're paying tribute for maybe it's unwarranted.

I'm still trying to figure out any logistic reason that the U.S. aids Israel.  They are no threat to us, and we don't especially need them for anything.  Best I can tell it's 100% religiously motivated.


Well. let's actually stop to think about it if you really want to.

What region is Israel in?
Who, in that region has been the most stable ally to the US of the last 50 years?
What resources does that region contain?
What strategic reasoning is there for a stable ally in that area?


But, you know, da jewz.
 
2013-01-07 09:45:45 AM  
can you imagine if a democrat said that?
 
2013-01-07 09:49:22 AM  
Yeah, members of the OECD (which Israel joined in... 2010, I think it was) should be on the  giving side of international aid.
 
2013-01-07 09:57:02 AM  

Mangoose: What region is Israel in?
Who, in that region has been the most stable ally to the US of the last 50 years?
What resources does that region contain?
What strategic reasoning is there for a stable ally in that area?


I'm not saying it's a BAD thing to have a stable ally there, I just don't see it as being worth the cost.  If it's about the oil in the region, even a backwards despot is capable of selling us oil.  Stability isn't absolutely necessary for oil to flow, though I'm sure it helps facilitate that.

The only other reason I can fathom is guilt over the holocaust.  To be sure, the Jews got a really bad deal there, no question about that.  If the sentiment is "Oh those poor people, they really need a safe homeland", I suppose I can understand that.  But then there are plenty of other genocides throughout history that remain ignored.
 
2013-01-07 10:14:08 AM  

Mangoose: Who, in that region has been the most stable ally to the US of the last 50 years?


Hmmm.  Saudi Arabia?  Oh, no, wait, they've been our ally for 80 years.  We're on pretty friendly terms with Jordan, too.  We were pretty good with Turkey for a long time... actually, most countries in the region that play well with others to a reasonable extent are on fine terms with the US, and have been for ages.
 
2013-01-07 10:31:48 AM  

nekom: Mangoose: What region is Israel in?
Who, in that region has been the most stable ally to the US of the last 50 years?
What resources does that region contain?
What strategic reasoning is there for a stable ally in that area?

I'm not saying it's a BAD thing to have a stable ally there, I just don't see it as being worth the cost.  If it's about the oil in the region, even a backwards despot is capable of selling us oil.  Stability isn't absolutely necessary for oil to flow, though I'm sure it helps facilitate that.

The only other reason I can fathom is guilt over the holocaust.  To be sure, the Jews got a really bad deal there, no question about that.  If the sentiment is "Oh those poor people, they really need a safe homeland", I suppose I can understand that.  But then there are plenty of other genocides throughout history that remain ignored.


"The Holocaust:  A Bad Deal for the Jews", a novel by Nekom, foreword by Carrot Top

/just yanking your chain.
 
2013-01-07 10:32:50 AM  

t3knomanser: Yes, but once the decision has been made, it's very hard to unmake. Institutional decision-making doesn't really support that, "Oh, wait, this was a bad idea. Let's stop."


Sadly, I know. Getting middle aged to older white men with money to ever admit they are wrong is damned near impossible. Getting them to admit it AND change is even worse.
 
2013-01-07 10:49:25 AM  
Uh oh, someone just became an anti-Semite.
 
2013-01-07 11:03:19 AM  

GAT_00: Uh oh, someone just became an anti-Semite.


The hallmark of the you're-with-us-or-you're-against-us brigade.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-01-07 11:06:02 AM  

nekom: doyner: "Foreign aid" is the contemporary term for "tribute."  If you can't state what you're paying tribute for maybe it's unwarranted.

I'm still trying to figure out any logistic reason that the U.S. aids Israel.  They are no threat to us, and we don't especially need them for anything.  Best I can tell it's 100% religiously motivated.


Well, they are a democratic country.  At one time the USSR was backing their enemies, so we backed them to compensate.  Most of that money goes to US defense companies and they are aren't going to let it stop, even though the reason is long gone.
 
2013-01-07 11:06:59 AM  

doyner: "Foreign aid" is the contemporary term for "tribute."  If you can't state what you're paying tribute for maybe it's unwarranted.


i.imgur.com

Tribute? They steal men's souls and make them their slaves. Mankind ill needs a savior such as Israel.
 
2013-01-07 11:08:02 AM  

Mangoose: What region is Israel in?


The Mid East

Mangoose: Who, in that region has been the most stable ally to the US of the last 50 years?


Saudi Arabia

Mangoose: What resources does that region contain?


Oil

Mangoose: What strategic reasoning is there for a stable ally in that area?


To ensure that Saudi and Gulf region Oil remains available to the US.

Israel does nothing to help us in that regard.
 
2013-01-07 11:08:35 AM  

Mangoose: nekom: doyner: "Foreign aid" is the contemporary term for "tribute."  If you can't state what you're paying tribute for maybe it's unwarranted.

I'm still trying to figure out any logistic reason that the U.S. aids Israel.  They are no threat to us, and we don't especially need them for anything.  Best I can tell it's 100% religiously motivated.

Well. let's actually stop to think about it if you really want to.

What region is Israel in?
Who, in that region has been the most stable ally to the US of the last 50 years?
What resources does that region contain?
What strategic reasoning is there for a stable ally in that area?


But, you know, da jewz.


They've done nothing to advance our goals in terms of oil.
 
2013-01-07 11:09:56 AM  

dbirchall: Mangoose: Who, in that region has been the most stable ally to the US of the last 50 years?

Hmmm.  Saudi Arabia?  Oh, no, wait, they've been our ally for 80 years.  We're on pretty friendly terms with Jordan, too.  We were pretty good with Turkey for a long time... actually, most countries in the region that play well with others to a reasonable extent are on fine terms with the US, and have been for ages.


Whole lotta this. Contrary to popular belief, there are a lot of Middle Eastern countries that are friendly with us.
 
2013-01-07 11:10:30 AM  
Aid made sense when Israel was struggling to survive and build a nation.  It's now the greatest power in the region by a wide margin.  $3 billion/year is excessive to the point of being ridiculous.  Israel is strong enough to stand on its own and take care of its own problems.  We can be friends without sending a constant, excessive stream of cash and weapons.

But, AIPAC and the military industrial complex will join forces to oppose any cuts, so that's the end of that.
 
2013-01-07 11:11:36 AM  
So it's "we still feel sorry for you" money?
 
2013-01-07 11:12:06 AM  

FlashHarry: can you imagine if a democrat said that?


It would be a Shiatstorm that would make Benghazi look like as much a non-news story as "W" choking on a pretzel.

The GOP would peel the paint off the walls calling for everything from resignation to deportation.
 
2013-01-07 11:12:15 AM  

vpb: Israel can afford to pay it's own way I think, but they will never be cut off.  Most of that money doesn't go to Israel, it's credit for buying things in the US, especially military equipment.

Every dime of it has a congressman and two senators protecting it.


Uh... Israel is the only country that can spend US defense aid on it's own military programs.

They also have a penchant for selling arms to the Chinese.

With friends like these...
 
2013-01-07 11:12:20 AM  
It's just grandstanding.

What does KY not have a lot of? If you answered "defense contractors", you win teh prize! If you answered "Jews", you win teh bonus round!
 
2013-01-07 11:13:24 AM  
Israel got themselves into that mess, they can damn well get themselves out.
 
2013-01-07 11:13:26 AM  
People always seem to forget that most of the money we send to Israel and Egypt is from the Camp David treaty. We pay them several billion a year to not go to war with each other.
 
2013-01-07 11:15:51 AM  

GAT_00: Uh oh, someone just became an anti-Semite.


I love when people get called anti-semites. Semite means "Jewish Priveledge" so an anti-semite would be someone who is "anti-Jewish priveledge". So call me an anti-Semite, for I am completely against special treatment for Jews and 100% in favor of Jews getting equal treatment to everyone else.

On that note, if we're going to provide defense assets and aid to Israel to win over Jewish votes here, I'm not voting for anyone who doesn't advocate arming and funding Ireland.
 
2013-01-07 11:16:07 AM  

FlashHarry: can you imagine if a democrat said that?


Yeah, the right wing derp-o-sphere and rage chambers would go into a frenzy to tell Southern Baptists that Democrats don't love Israel enough to bring Jesus back to earth.

Jews, however, would continue to overwhelmingly vote for Democrats.
 
2013-01-07 11:17:05 AM  
Goodbye 2016, hello Newsletter Guy: The Next Generation.
 
2013-01-07 11:19:46 AM  

Elvis Presleys Death Throne: Semite means "Jewish Priveledge"


No it doesn't.

Sem·ite
noun \ˈse-ˌmīt, especially British ˈsē-ˌmīt\
Definition of SEMITE
1
a : a member of any of a number of peoples of ancient southwestern Asia including the Akkadians, Phoenicians, Hebrews, and Arabs
b : a descendant of these peoples
2
: a member of a modern people speaking a Semitic language
 
2013-01-07 11:19:55 AM  

Elvis Presleys Death Throne: GAT_00: Uh oh, someone just became an anti-Semite.

I love when people get called anti-semites. Semite means "Jewish Priveledge" so an anti-semite would be someone who is "anti-Jewish priveledge". So call me an anti-Semite, for I am completely against special treatment for Jews and 100% in favor of Jews getting equal treatment to everyone else.

On that note, if we're going to provide defense assets and aid to Israel to win over Jewish votes here, I'm not voting for anyone who doesn't advocate arming and funding Ireland.


Semite (plural Semites). A member of any of a number of peoples of ancient southwestern Asia including the Akkadians, Phoenicians, Hebrews, and Arabs.
 
2013-01-07 11:20:00 AM  

The Larch: Yeah, the right wing derp-o-sphere and rage chambers would go into a frenzy to tell Southern Baptists that Democrats don't love Israel enough to bring Jesus back to earth.

Jews, however, would continue to overwhelmingly vote for Democrats.



www.nypost.com
says "Yes."
 
2013-01-07 11:20:21 AM  

Mangoose:
What region is Israel in?
Who, in that region has been the most stable ally to the US of the last 50 years?
What resources does that region contain?
What strategic reasoning is there for a stable ally in that area?


But, you know, da jewz.


inconceivable.jpg

Name me one thing this "ally" has done for us.

Fark Israel.
 
2013-01-07 11:24:24 AM  

nekom: doyner: "Foreign aid" is the contemporary term for "tribute."  If you can't state what you're paying tribute for maybe it's unwarranted.

I'm still trying to figure out any logistic reason that the U.S. aids Israel.  They are no threat to us, and we don't especially need them for anything.  Best I can tell it's 100% religiously motivated.


It's the only territory in a large geographic area that we consider "friendly".
Saudi Arabia might be another but we are already sending them a boatload of money for their oil.
 
2013-01-07 11:24:39 AM  

God-is-a-Taco: doyner: "Foreign aid" is the contemporary term for "tribute."  If you can't state what you're paying tribute for maybe it's unwarranted.

[i.imgur.com image 300x420]

Tribute? They steal men's souls and make them their slaves. Mankind ill needs a savior such as Israel.


:Throws wine glass: "I guess the same could be said for all religions."
 
2013-01-07 11:24:39 AM  

one of Ripley's Bad Guys: Name me one thing this "ally" has done for us.


"Us" as a nation or "Us meaning "for us here at Fark"?
img.izismile.com
 
2013-01-07 11:25:29 AM  
i.imgur.com
 
2013-01-07 11:25:30 AM  

one of Ripley's Bad Guys: Name me one thing this "ally" has done for us.


Israel is the US's tapeworm.
 
2013-01-07 11:25:31 AM  

ArkPanda: People always seem to forget that most of the money we send to Israel and Egypt is from the Camp David treaty. We pay them several billion a year to not go to war with each other.


I'm okay with stopping payment.
 
2013-01-07 11:26:41 AM  

hinten: nekom: doyner: "Foreign aid" is the contemporary term for "tribute."  If you can't state what you're paying tribute for maybe it's unwarranted.

I'm still trying to figure out any logistic reason that the U.S. aids Israel.  They are no threat to us, and we don't especially need them for anything.  Best I can tell it's 100% religiously motivated.

It's the only territory in a large geographic area that we consider "friendly".
Saudi Arabia might be another but we are already sending them a boatload of money for their oil.


You know that Turkey as a member of NATO is an actual, treaty bound ally of the US, don't you?
 
2013-01-07 11:27:04 AM  

hinten: It's the only territory in a large geographic area that we consider "friendly".
Saudi Arabia might be another but we are already sending them a boatload of money for their oil.


We get oil from Saudi for our money.  From Israel we get friendliness for our cash?
 
2013-01-07 11:28:15 AM  

doyner: "Foreign aid" is the contemporary term for "tribute."  If you can't state what you're paying tribute for maybe it's unwarranted.


Nonono. Tribute is what a small country pays to a bigger neighbor to make sure it doesn't get attacked. Sending aid to Israel (and Egypt, and the PA) is to prevent them from attacking each other.
 
2013-01-07 11:28:38 AM  

ArkPanda: People always seem to forget that most of the money we send to Israel and Egypt is from the Camp David treaty. We pay them several billion a year to not go to war with each other.



Camp David was the Egyptian bribe. We've been giving Israel billions per year since 1974.
 
2013-01-07 11:29:30 AM  
nekom

I'm not saying it's a BAD thing to have a stable ally there

'm still trying to figure out any logistic reason that the U.S. aids Israel.


Wha?

dbirchall

Hmmm. Saudi Arabia? Oh, no, wait, they've been our ally for 80 years. We're on pretty friendly terms with Jordan, too. We were pretty good with Turkey for a long time... actually, most countries in the region that play well with others to a reasonable extent are on fine terms with the US, and have been for ages.


Since the beginning of our relations with Saudi Arabia, there have been numerous periods of time where they were not that great. That does not seem "stable" in the way of Israel, imho.

Israel on the other hand has been considered by the US as a major ally since the beginning.

HotWingConspiracy: They've done nothing to advance our goals in terms of oil.


Prove that statement. Also, it's not just oil, mind you. That is not the only thing in the world.

Philip Francis Queeg: Saudi Arabia


King Saud coming to power. Soviet cold war. Oil Embargo.

Pretty stable, no? Has it been vastly improved as we move to a global economy for the richest, yes.

Israel does nothing to help us in that regard.

Again, what do you base this off of?
 
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