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(Chicago Trib)   Fiat 500 electric car is rated at 116 miles per gallon. Can be pushed by three friends from zero to 30 miles per hour in under six seconds   (chicagotribune.com ) divider line
    More: Spiffy, Fiat, subcompact, fuel efficiency  
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1415 clicks; posted to Business » on 07 Jan 2013 at 11:00 AM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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ZAZ [TotalFark]
2013-01-07 09:01:25 AM  
Not miles per gallon. Hemifurlongs per pseudojoule.

Miles per gallon equivalent, or MPGe, is a rating devised by the EPA to illustrate how a vehicle compares with a gasoline-powered one.

The figure is not even comparable across two electric cars because of different battery capacities. Gas tanks differ too, but they all get normal people to work and back a couple times before they empty. Miles per charge is much more important than miles per tank.
 
2013-01-07 09:39:40 AM  
It leaks electrons like a Sicilian capacitor.
 
2013-01-07 09:43:02 AM  

ZAZ: Not miles per gallon. Hemifurlongs per pseudojoule.


I'm going to have to incorporate "hemifurlongs per pseudojoule" into my gen chem class to teach dimensional analysis.
 
2013-01-07 09:49:48 AM  
I just signed up for an electricity plan where all usage after 10PM and up to 6AM is free, so the idea of charging my car for nothing sounds pretty appealing.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2013-01-07 10:18:30 AM  
markie_farkie

A study a year or two ago showed that electric cars are environmentally beneficial if and only if they are charged overnight when low-CO2 sources like hydro and nuclear supply the power. Charge during the day and you make the power company bring another gas turbine online.
 
2013-01-07 11:05:14 AM  

ZAZ: markie_farkie

A study a year or two ago showed that electric cars are environmentally beneficial if and only if they are charged overnight when low-CO2 sources like hydro and nuclear supply the power. Charge during the day and you make the power company bring another gas turbine online.


I'm curious how this is so. The waste output from gas turbines is cleaner than a car tailpipe (even a modern, well tuned engine), and can be captured and controlled much more easily from a single facility vs. hundreds of tailpipes. Is it an argument from sheer volume of non-renewable hydrocarbons burned and transmission lost?
/not a critique, honest question
 
2013-01-07 11:08:58 AM  

markie_farkie: I just signed up for an electricity plan where all usage after 10PM and up to 6AM is free, so the idea of charging my car for nothing sounds pretty appealing.


This seems rife for abuse by some technical-savvy people. Charge your battery array from 10:01 to 5:59, and then unplug from the grid.
 
2013-01-07 11:09:30 AM  
But it still can't get an oil change at Wal-Mart.
 
2013-01-07 11:12:42 AM  
I'll take five gallons of electricity, please.
 
2013-01-07 11:12:46 AM  

markie_farkie: I just signed up for an electricity plan where all usage after 10PM and up to 6AM is free, so the idea of charging my car for nothing sounds pretty appealing.


put a timing relay in between your cars charger and the wall outlet and I'd be interested in how long it stays free.
 
2013-01-07 11:13:58 AM  
So, I'm supposed to buy a car that's styled after an Italian design from 50 years ago, that's built in Poland with final assembly in Mexico, that's based on a European Ford with Korean hybrid technology.

Pricing should mirror the Leaf's, which starts at $33,630 before incentives

For a peanut car that will maybe fit 2.5 adults? SIGN ME UP!
 
2013-01-07 11:17:43 AM  

Donnchadha: ZAZ: Not miles per gallon. Hemifurlongs per pseudojoule.

I'm going to have to incorporate "hemifurlongs per pseudojoule" into my gen chem class to teach dimensional analysis.


Your students hate you, don't they?
 
2013-01-07 11:18:02 AM  
These electric cars adverts always tell you how much you'll save "at the pump" but never seem to mention how much your electric bill is going to go up charging the damn thing.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2013-01-07 11:18:38 AM  
Khellendros

In recent years pollution mostly means CO2. Oxides of nitrogen and sulfur are so 20th century. If you do worry about those old-fashioned pollutants air quality is probably improved within city limits by driving electric and charging in the daytime.
 
2013-01-07 11:18:56 AM  
Miles per 12hrs is perhaps more accurate. With electric cars, this is pretty much equivalent to miles per charge
 
2013-01-07 11:26:19 AM  
116 MPGe, and only goes 87 miles on a full charge. So it holds less than the equivalent of a moped gas tank. No thanks.
 
2013-01-07 11:42:41 AM  

loonatic112358: put a timing relay in between your cars charger and the wall outlet and I'd be interested in how long it stays free.


Most electric cars already have timers built-in to allow for off-peak charging..  Kind of like a dishwasher with a 2,4,6 hour delay-start button.

I also set our pool pump/chlorine generator to only operate during off-peak times as well.

I'll be curious this summer to see how efficiently I can use the upstairs AC system off-hours as a gigantic heat-sink to keep the downstairs cooler during the day.
 
2013-01-07 11:48:29 AM  
MPGe is a bullshiat made up number that means nothing in the real world. In a fully electric car there are only two numbers that are of any importance (aside from the price):

1. Range; How far can I go on a full charge?
2. Recharge Time; How long does it take to go from Empty to Full?
 
2013-01-07 11:51:43 AM  

Lord Dimwit: Donnchadha: ZAZ: Not miles per gallon. Hemifurlongs per pseudojoule.

I'm going to have to incorporate "hemifurlongs per pseudojoule" into my gen chem class to teach dimensional analysis.

Your students hate you, don't they?


Not yet... but they will.... muhahahaHAHAHAHA!
 
2013-01-07 12:31:18 PM  
EPA testing also showed that the 500e, marketed as being "environmentally sexy," will travel an average of 87 miles on a fully charged battery.

If that bears out, this would be super awesome.
 
2013-01-07 12:54:06 PM  

DigitalCoffee: MPGe is a bullshiat made up number that means nothing in the real world. In a fully electric car there are only two numbers that are of any importance (aside from the price):

1. Range; How far can I go on a full charge?
2. Recharge Time; How long does it take to go from Empty to Full?


Pretty much. I wonder if some electric vehicle lobbying team pestered the EPA into publishing this confusing and meaningless number so folks would somehow justify the initial upfront expense of an electric vehicle with the "savings in gas" based on (incorrectly) using the MPGe as a comparitive number to actual MPG of their current vehicles.
 
2013-01-07 12:59:24 PM  

meanmutton: bears out


2.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-01-07 01:06:29 PM  

meanmutton: EPA testing also showed that the 500e, marketed as being "environmentally sexy," will travel an average of 87 miles on a fully charged battery.

If that bears out, this would be super awesome.


Would I be wrong to guess that these batteries, like the batteries in my phone and laptop, charge less over time? Has an effective time-frame been established (guessed) before the battery charges so poorly that it has to be replaced?
 
2013-01-07 01:08:24 PM  

loonatic112358: markie_farkie: I just signed up for an electricity plan where all usage after 10PM and up to 6AM is free, so the idea of charging my car for nothing sounds pretty appealing.

put a timing relay in between your cars charger and the wall outlet and I'd be interested in how long it stays free.


You probably wouldn't need the timing relay. Most electrics let you program in a set of charging hours, for exactly this reason. ("For example, the Leaf let you program it for, say, "Charge me between 10PM and 5:59AM Monday through Friday, and all day weekends." You still hook up the charger when you get home, but it doesn't actually start charging until the scheduled time.)
 
2013-01-07 01:10:20 PM  
Sadly, the average mileage of the US car fleet is about 23.8 mpg (2012), which is still less than the mileage of Ford's Model T at 25 mpg.

Mind you, the Ford was not carrying a radio, AC, or a lot of other luxury extras (IIRC, you could get it without extras such as doors, wind-screens or seats) but all the same, it's a pity mileage has never been a major consideration with the American consumer or politician. If you simply insisted that cars be built to run as economically as a Model T, there'd be a lot less air pollution and hundres, if not thousands of lives would be saved during smog warning days.

Makes me think about buying a folding scooter to zip to work on (a folding bicycle I could hide under my desk would cost as much as a small car). Asthma acts up when I'm around too many cars and sometimes I have to stop and gag for a couple of minutes before I can go on.
 
2013-01-07 01:11:17 PM  

skrame: Would I be wrong to guess that these batteries, like the batteries in my phone and laptop, charge less over time? Has an effective time-frame been established (guessed) before the battery charges so poorly that it has to be replaced?


No, you would not be wrong. The right answer is complicated -- it depends on the car, on the way the car is driven, on the way the car is charged, on the temperature the car is typically used in, etc. But yes, you can expect the car to lose a few percent of its range every year.

The bright side is that the cost of replacement battery packs is going down pretty rapidly over time.
 
2013-01-07 01:18:02 PM  
I wasn't aware of the built in timers, good to know those are there.

Now to get a garage added to the house so i could ponder getting an electric car

well, there is a garage but it started life as a 1 car garage that's now 1/2 storage and 1/2 office
 
2013-01-07 01:26:28 PM  
Is it a law or something that electric cars have to be ugly?
 
2013-01-07 01:46:14 PM  
Miles per liter equivalent, or MPLe, would be more confusing, and as such more useful to promoting these things.
 
2013-01-07 01:51:24 PM  

Hack Patooey: markie_farkie: I just signed up for an electricity plan where all usage after 10PM and up to 6AM is free, so the idea of charging my car for nothing sounds pretty appealing.

This seems rife for abuse by some technical-savvy people. Charge your battery array from 10:01 to 5:59, and then unplug from the grid.


I don't think being able to tell time counts as techninal-savvy.
 
2013-01-07 02:32:53 PM  

valkore: DigitalCoffee: MPGe is a bullshiat made up number that means nothing in the real world. In a fully electric car there are only two numbers that are of any importance (aside from the price):

1. Range; How far can I go on a full charge?
2. Recharge Time; How long does it take to go from Empty to Full?

Pretty much. I wonder if some electric vehicle lobbying team pestered the EPA into publishing this confusing and meaningless number so folks would somehow justify the initial upfront expense of an electric vehicle with the "savings in gas" based on (incorrectly) using the MPGe as a comparitive number to actual MPG of their current vehicles.


If you look at the math involved with MPGe, it seems pretty fair. They figured the kBtu of energy in a gallon of gas, and then compare that with the kBtu of a kWh of energy. At least that way, they're figuring an "apples-to-apples" comparison of energy used.

The window labels also include range, charge time, kWh per 100 miles, etc.
wot.motortrend.com
Seems about as logical as one could use to compare two different transportation methods.
 
2013-01-07 02:44:18 PM  
whoever submitted this is a goddamned retard. Electric cars are way faster off the line than ANY gas plant. ~4.8 to 60 is going to be ENTRY level for performance autos very, very soon and all you musclecar idiots can lump it and go cry on your piles of rusty sheetmetal and empty nitrous kits
 
2013-01-07 03:22:52 PM  

willfullyobscure: whoever submitted this is a goddamned retard. Electric cars are way faster off the line than ANY gas plant. ~4.8 to 60 is going to be ENTRY level for performance autos very, very soon and all you musclecar idiots can lump it and go cry on your piles of rusty sheetmetal and empty nitrous kits



Here are some 0-60 numbers for the different electric cars:
Link

Nissan Leaf: 7.0 seconds
Chevrolet Volt: 8.8 seconds
the Mitsubishi i-MiEV: 12 seconds
Tesla Roadster: 3.7 seconds
Rihanna (per her song): 3.5 seconds

Not super fast, really, other than the Tesla.
 
2013-01-07 03:41:54 PM  
I love my 2012 Fiat 500 Sport. It reminds me a lot of my first car, a 1988 Ford Festiva. The wheelbase and basic dimensions/layout are about the same.

The most noticeable difference is fuel economy. The Fiat averages between 30-35 mpg city; my old Festiva often cleared 40-45 mpg. Though, to be fair, the Fiat is a good deal safer; I don't think my Festiva even had a steering-wheel airbag (it was made a year or so before that became mandatory equipment).

A joke review of the Fiat I'd read before buying stated that it goes 0-60 "eventually" ... which is a fair description. ^_^
 
2013-01-07 03:52:29 PM  

noazark: I love my 2012 Fiat 500 Sport. It reminds me a lot of my first car, a 1988 Ford Festiva. The wheelbase and basic dimensions/layout are about the same.

The most noticeable difference is fuel economy. The Fiat averages between 30-35 mpg city; my old Festiva often cleared 40-45 mpg. Though, to be fair, the Fiat is a good deal safer; I don't think my Festiva even had a steering-wheel airbag (it was made a year or so before that became mandatory equipment).

A joke review of the Fiat I'd read before buying stated that it goes 0-60 "eventually" ... which is a fair description. ^_^


What do you get highway?
 
2013-01-07 04:01:34 PM  

Donnchadha: noazark: I love my 2012 Fiat 500 Sport. It reminds me a lot of my first car, a 1988 Ford Festiva. The wheelbase and basic dimensions/layout are about the same.

The most noticeable difference is fuel economy. The Fiat averages between 30-35 mpg city; my old Festiva often cleared 40-45 mpg. Though, to be fair, the Fiat is a good deal safer; I don't think my Festiva even had a steering-wheel airbag (it was made a year or so before that became mandatory equipment).

A joke review of the Fiat I'd read before buying stated that it goes 0-60 "eventually" ... which is a fair description. ^_^

What do you get highway?


Honked at and the occasional finger.
 
2013-01-07 04:25:45 PM  

meanmutton: willfullyobscure: whoever submitted this is a goddamned retard. Electric cars are way faster off the line than ANY gas plant. ~4.8 to 60 is going to be ENTRY level for performance autos very, very soon and all you musclecar idiots can lump it and go cry on your piles of rusty sheetmetal and empty nitrous kits


Here are some 0-60 numbers for the different electric cars:
Link

Nissan Leaf: 7.0 seconds
Chevrolet Volt: 8.8 seconds
the Mitsubishi i-MiEV: 12 seconds
Tesla Roadster: 3.7 seconds
Rihanna (per her song): 3.5 seconds

Not super fast, really, other than the Tesla.


The Leaf and the Volt both have chips in them to slow them down. The Leaf would be 3.9 sec if it was removed. Nissan wanted to appeal to the mid-size car market so they slowed it down for safety.
In about 5 years you'll be able to buy a stock car off the dealership lot that costs as much as a Civic but could easily outrun a Ferrari.
 
2013-01-07 05:49:42 PM  
Pricing should mirror the Leaf's, which starts at $33,630 before incentives

mustangsdaily.com

The new 2013 Shelby GT 500 with every available option:

Price: under $60,000
Horsepower: 662
Top Speed: 200 mph
Torque: 631 ft. lbs.
0-60: 3.5 seconds
1/4 mile: 11.8 seconds
Skidpad: 1.00g

For less than twice the price of a Fiat 500, you can have ten times the fun, in the Ford. No thanks, Fiat. Maybe next time...
 
2013-01-07 05:59:29 PM  

Hack Patooey: markie_farkie: I just signed up for an electricity plan where all usage after 10PM and up to 6AM is free, so the idea of charging my car for nothing sounds pretty appealing.

This seems rife for abuse by some technical-savvy people. Charge your battery array from 10:01 to 5:59, and then unplug from the grid.


Because AC power generation and demand needs to balance out, it's not abuse at all... you're actually doing them a favor. If it didn't benefit them they wouldn't offer it. Many electrical energy-intensive industrial processes run at night to take advantage of much lower rates. Since a huge percentage of electrical power consumption goes to heating and cooling, most of which occurs during business/daylight hours, there will be an incentive for nighttime power consumption for the foreseeable future.
 
2013-01-07 06:01:22 PM  

brantgoose: sometimes I have to stop and gag for a couple of minutes before I can go on.


Subby's mom has the same problem...
 
2013-01-07 06:43:07 PM  

Sin_City_Superhero: The new 2013 Shelby GT 500 with every available option:

Price: under $60,000
Horsepower: 662
Top Speed: 200 mph
Torque: 631 ft. lbs.
0-60: 3.5 seconds
1/4 mile: 11.8 seconds
Skidpad: 1.00g

For less than twice the price of a Fiat 500, you can have ten times the fun, in the Ford. No thanks, Fiat. Maybe next time...


You forgot "MPG: 15 city/24 hwy". Not exactly pursuing the same demographic.
 
2013-01-07 07:34:04 PM  

badcommand: In about 5 years you'll be able to buy a stock car off the dealership lot that costs as much as a Civic but could easily outrun a Ferrari.


Yes, but the Ferrari will be able to drive home afterwards

/probably
 
2013-01-07 07:52:33 PM  

Sin_City_Superhero: Pricing should mirror the Leaf's, which starts at $33,630 before incentives

[mustangsdaily.com image 850x499]

The new 2013 Shelby GT 500 with every available option:

Price: under $60,000
Horsepower: 662
Top Speed: 200 mph
Torque: 631 ft. lbs.
0-60: 3.5 seconds
1/4 mile: 11.8 seconds
Skidpad: 1.00g

For less than twice the price of a Fiat 500, you can have ten times the fun, in the Ford. No thanks, Fiat. Maybe next time...


Or you can get the 302 Boss for under 50K or 1.5 fiats...
 
2013-01-07 08:41:58 PM  

badcommand: In about 5 years you'll be able to buy a stock car off the dealership lot that costs as much as a Civic but could easily outrun a Ferrari.


Over sufficiently short distances.... all power all the time comes with certain tradeoffs, after all.

Sin_City_Superhero: Pricing should mirror the Leaf's, which starts at $33,630 before incentives

[mustangsdaily.com image 850x499]

The new 2013 Shelby GT 500 with every available option:

Price: under $60,000
Horsepower: 662
Top Speed: 200 mph
Torque: 631 ft. lbs.
0-60: 3.5 seconds
1/4 mile: 11.8 seconds
Skidpad: 1.00g

For less than twice the price of a Fiat 500, you can have ten times the fun, in the Ford. No thanks, Fiat. Maybe next time...


I don't know if I should mock you for comparing completely unlike things built for completely different purposes aimed at completely different demographics or if I should mock you for thinking it makes any sense to spend $60,000 on a car with 662 horsepower driving a glorified ox cart....
 
2013-01-07 08:53:26 PM  

Vegan Meat Popsicle: badcommand: In about 5 years you'll be able to buy a stock car off the dealership lot that costs as much as a Civic but could easily outrun a Ferrari.

Over sufficiently short distances.... all power all the time comes with certain tradeoffs, after all.

Sin_City_Superhero: Pricing should mirror the Leaf's, which starts at $33,630 before incentives

[mustangsdaily.com image 850x499]

The new 2013 Shelby GT 500 with every available option:

Price: under $60,000
Horsepower: 662
Top Speed: 200 mph
Torque: 631 ft. lbs.
0-60: 3.5 seconds
1/4 mile: 11.8 seconds
Skidpad: 1.00g

For less than twice the price of a Fiat 500, you can have ten times the fun, in the Ford. No thanks, Fiat. Maybe next time...

I don't know if I should mock you for comparing completely unlike things built for completely different purposes aimed at completely different demographics or if I should mock you for thinking it makes any sense to spend $60,000 on a car with 662 horsepower driving a glorified ox cart....


right, because an ox cart can pull a g on the ski pad and over 70 in the slalom..

How bad does it need to butt rape a equivalently priced BMW before the "American cars can't handle" meme dies
 
2013-01-07 09:11:09 PM  

Vegan Meat Popsicle: badcommand: In about 5 years you'll be able to buy a stock car off the dealership lot that costs as much as a Civic but could easily outrun a Ferrari.

Over sufficiently short distances.... all power all the time comes with certain tradeoffs, after all.

Sin_City_Superhero: Pricing should mirror the Leaf's, which starts at $33,630 before incentives

[mustangsdaily.com image 850x499]

The new 2013 Shelby GT 500 with every available option:

Price: under $60,000
Horsepower: 662
Top Speed: 200 mph
Torque: 631 ft. lbs.
0-60: 3.5 seconds
1/4 mile: 11.8 seconds
Skidpad: 1.00g

For less than twice the price of a Fiat 500, you can have ten times the fun, in the Ford. No thanks, Fiat. Maybe next time...

I don't know if I should mock you for comparing completely unlike things built for completely different purposes aimed at completely different demographics or if I should mock you for thinking it makes any sense to spend $60,000 on a car with 662 horsepower driving a glorified ox cart....


"Glorified ox cart"? Are you high? The Shelby GT500 is a street-legal sub-12 second car. If that's not something that interests you, fine. But you sound retarded saying that about a car with the engineering and sheer power to go 200mph.
 
2013-01-07 09:48:34 PM  
EPA testing also showed that the 500e, marketed as being "environmentally sexy," will travel an average of 87 miles on a fully charged battery.

So in practical terms....it's f*cking useless. Why aren't people buying TDI Volkswagen's and Fiat 500 diesels? 70 and 80 mpg turbo diesels anyone? WTF?
 
2013-01-08 12:07:55 AM  

ZAZ: markie_farkie

A study a year or two ago showed that electric cars are environmentally beneficial if and only if they are charged overnight when low-CO2 sources like hydro and nuclear supply the power. Charge during the day and you make the power company bring another gas turbine online.


Wrong.
 
2013-01-08 12:23:44 AM  

markie_farkie: I just signed up for an electricity plan where all usage after 10PM and up to 6AM is free, so the idea of charging my car for nothing sounds pretty appealing.


I live across the road from a free charging station, so I enjoy filling up my electric car for free. It won't be free forever, but by that time I will have long since paid for the car with gas savings, and it will still be the cheapest thing on the road to drive.
 
2013-01-08 12:26:25 AM  

skrame: meanmutton: EPA testing also showed that the 500e, marketed as being "environmentally sexy," will travel an average of 87 miles on a fully charged battery.

If that bears out, this would be super awesome.

Would I be wrong to guess that these batteries, like the batteries in my phone and laptop, charge less over time? Has an effective time-frame been established (guessed) before the battery charges so poorly that it has to be replaced?


Most automakers warranty the battery pack for 8 or 10 years.
 
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