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(BusinessWeek)   Old: "You suck at irrelevant interview questions and I don't like you." New: "You're just not a cultural fit for us"   (businessweek.com ) divider line
    More: Asinine, interview question, American Sociological Review, Ernst & Young, job hunting, melting pot, marketing executives, Starship Enterprise, NWS  
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20912 clicks; posted to Main » on 06 Jan 2013 at 9:23 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-07 10:27:58 AM  

Gyrfalcon: I"m not going to get a job. That's it. I'm just going to do something that people will pay me for and screw working for people who want me to "culturally fit in" with them.

Your loss not mine.


You have chosen wisely.
 
2013-01-07 10:31:25 AM  

browntimmy: I honestly think that anyone with at least average intellegence can be trained to do most jobs out there as effectively as someone with a degree. Obviously I'm not counting something like doctors in that. So if I was hiring for my own company, my priorities would be someone who seems pleasant to be around and isn't a slacker.


Thank this case for the beginning of degree requirements vs training.
 
2013-01-07 10:31:47 AM  
My caulking job was a good cultural fit for the HR person.
 
2013-01-07 10:36:20 AM  

stiletto_the_wise: Smacker: I'm always curious; what metrics do HR personnel use to justify their processes and techniques? Do they have actual evidence that their system of irrelevant and arbitrary qualifiers results in better hires than, say, letting some random person in the office pick somebody?

THIS.

My interviews are pretty straightforward. Ask questions with one right answer and many wrong ones, and count how many right answers they give. I'm concerned only with competence, because you at least have a hope of measuring competence and using it to objectively compare candidates. I don't care if you like golf or play poker on weekends. Are you smart and can you get shiat done? Those are the only relevant measurements.

shoegaze99: When I've been in charge of hiring, you'd better believe that "cultural fit" (I didn't use stupid terms like that) was just as important as skill set. I'd take someone with slightly less skills but who would be a great fit for our team and my management style than someone with great skills who wouldn't be right for our workplace. If a person fits well with the rest of the staff and is someone you feel good about working with/managing, that a huge plus over someone who will be an outcast on your staff or who you'll hate working with.

This kind of mentality is how likable frat boys get hired over people who studied hard and know their shiat. Feel lucky you don't have a "Google equivalent" in your industry to compete with.


So your interview questions also screen for cultural fit.  Your culture just happens to be mechanistic.
 
2013-01-07 10:37:38 AM  

GoldSpider: Mr. Eugenides: Even in situations like this though I still say that a 401-K is better than a pension.

I never understood the aversion to 401k retirement accounts. Unlike a pension, a company can't simply "loot" it.


Yes, the brokers and bankers are the ones who loot it, not the company.
It's cool sending away a percentage of everyone's paychecks to Wall Street.
And that's pre-tax, too!
Every week, Wall Street firms receive a gushing flood of money to "invest," which is never seen again, ever. And people send this money down the rabbit hole voluntarily.
That's the best part: The largest wealth transfer/theft in the history of the planet and it's voluntary on the part of those being stolen from.
 
2013-01-07 10:38:59 AM  

GoldSpider: At least a company can't loot an employee's 401k like they (apparently) can a pension. So there's that.


Can't loot what no one puts money into, that's true.
 
2013-01-07 10:40:11 AM  
Six months ago I started as Director of Security at a company that does a lot of research study work. Cultural fit was a huge part of the interview process, they only wanted to hire someone who was qualified, but also someone they wanted to work with. As I got to know people here I heard multiple times, "I've only been with the company 15 years.". The first time I heard this I went, "Wait...what?" Five years is considered long to be at a company these days, especially in IT, but I had heard correctly. People don't leave this company, at 15 years you're considered to be just settled in.

So this company offers job security, stability, and cultivates an environment of competent, loyal, people that you want to spend time with. I'd say the results of "cultural fit" shouldn't be ignored, it's critical to many aspects of business success.

One other nice thing, it's an employee owned company, and I'm shocked more businesses don't go this direction, it really gives everyone a legitimate feeling of being invested in the company's success.
 
2013-01-07 10:41:57 AM  

zedster: FTFA:""These trends are being driven by millennials because they care about culture," says Dan Schawbel, author of Me: 2.0. "Research shows that millennials typically stay at a job for about two years-and they have different priorities. They'd rather have meaningful work over more pay, or work for a company that gives back or cares about the environment. They want a culture that's less hierarchical, more flexible, and more understanding of difference, because millennials are the most diverse generation."

NO NO NO NO NO NO

WWII Gen: Hey I'll get a job and work at it for 20+ yrs, return you'll give me benefits like a pension
Business: Okay

Baby Boomers: I'd like what my parents had
Business: nope you'll have a 401K that we will raid and no job security

Millennials: If I'm not going to be making great money and have no job security I'd rather work someplace I like and move on when I burn out
Business: Why do you have no loyalty? come back?

If I had the choice between culture or a place that actually took care of it's employees without screwing them over I would take the security. Having fallen into IT I have to say the contractor system is not going to inspire me to do anything less then the bare minimum, what incentive do I have? I have no profit share, no chance of getting hired on (always a false carrot they dangle), and very little security. At best Millennials are just waiting for the huge delayed wave of Baby Boomer to retire and open up the job market for them, at worst you are looking at generation that will have far less opportunity and quality of life then their parents.


"And here's another thing...I have 8 different bosses...."

img2-3.timeinc.net
 
2013-01-07 10:43:03 AM  

Lsherm: When I was in college I was a manager for the engineering school's "tech crew" - students who fixed computers on campus.  They were cushy jobs, and there were 10 slots to hire for every year.  The first year I got to hire students I was informed by another employee that it was a "Pakistani year."  Turns out for years the Indian students and the Pakistani students had been swapping out the tech crew jobs because they refused to work with one another.  So on an Indian year, only Indian students would apply, and on a Pakistani year, only Pakistani students would apply.

I asked the employee what would happen if I hired a white or black employee, and he assured me that wouldn't happen.  I asked him why.  "Because I throw those resumes out," he said.


But aren't most resume's black AND white?
 
2013-01-07 10:46:52 AM  
As a manager of an IT organization, I do find that I value team fit over technical skills everyday of the week. I have a very high performing team that gets the job done and I will not hire someone that I believe may cause friction to the individuals in the group.

Technical skills can be taught, personalities are much, much harder to change. The very first thing I do when I join a new organization is to find the toxic personalities and remove them from the team regardless of their skill sets or how much they individually produce.

I would rather have a team of people that can learn the technology and get along than 1 or 2 "heroes" that make it all work but are giant pricks about it.

Most of my hiring manager peers feel the same way.

So it is not "Get a Clue" it is "Get a Life"

Welcome to the workforce.
 
2013-01-07 10:47:40 AM  

BarkingUnicorn: But aren't most resume's black AND white?


Aren't most resume's what black and white?

Typeface? That's black.

The paper's white and makes up most of the resume.
 
2013-01-07 10:55:39 AM  
While I respect the idea that there is a need for some cultural fit in a work environment, it shouldn't be anywhere near the top criterion. In a well defined and designed hiring methodology, "cultural fit" shouldn't make up more than 10 percent of a candidate's score.

I have worked in two environments that are heavy on cultural fit. The first was a small, family run research firm. I left after a year because the boardroom basically became the second home of dinner table arguments and it was impossible to get anything done. With a homogenous work culture, there were never alternative ideas or viewpoints. This is the main reason the company was failing. I also worked with a police organization. Most of us who watch the news, have seen the pitfalls of police organizations too hung up on their culture. Again, no new ideas, and the same old boys club mentality. Groupthink was also a huge problem.

As a hiring manager, I NEED people on my team who can disagree with presented ideas, bring new ideas to the table, and share their different perspectives. Ultimately, I'm going to make a decision and some ideas will be discarded. This approach leads to what I think is the most important cultural fit question: "How do you handle situations where your ideas are not accepted by the group or manager"? I need people who can behave professionally, are not so hung up on their ego that their idea MUST be right, and can communicate effectively.

Ultimately, I don't want to work with my friends. I don't go for drinks with my staff regularly and prefer professional distance. Let's face it, if you're somewhat competent, there's a good chance that someday you'll get promoted. There's a mountain of evidence that demonstrates just how hard it is to fire your friends. I want colleagues - not bros.
 
2013-01-07 10:56:09 AM  

ChiliCon: Technical skills can be taught, personalities are much, much harder to change.


In a truly professional environ, personality shouldn't be an issue in the first place.

ChiliCon: find the toxic personalities


People who make giant douchebags of themselves (apparently on purpose) are every bit as unwelcome in a professional environ.

They are generally tolerated (perhaps even elevated) as part of an unprofessional one, I find- often for a variety of reasons unrelated to their overall performance.

ChiliCon: I would rather have a team of people that can learn the technology and get along than 1 or 2 "heroes" that make it all work but are giant pricks about it.


I'd rather not have giant pricks that spend all their day regaling me about deeply personal stuff I'd rather not know about them (usually loudly) either. Again, in an actual professional setting, neither sort of behavior is tolerated.

I'd rather not have those sorts of people welcomed and even credited with doing work they don't do simply because they're so-and-so's drinking buddy.
 
2013-01-07 11:02:39 AM  
I would have one question. Did you like the movie or book "The Help"?

moovz.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-01-07 11:06:01 AM  

falcon176: Ishidan: falcon176: loyalty is dead don't give employers 2 weeks notice, they won't give you 2 hours

Let me guess, you've gotten the "Here's a box, clean out your desk, your computer access has already been locked, this security guard will make sure you don't take company property with you" treatment at least once.

*checks profile*

Why I can't imagine why somebody would do such a thing to a person with SUCH a charming personality.

checking profiles to judge people while having a profile that says "I piss people off"
mine says the same thing but it's longer get on my level kiddo


Hell, who doesn't piss people off anymore? These days it seems like some folks panties/boxers get twisted up like pretzels right after they put them on. I read your profile and thought it was hilarious! Especially the part about how Texas became a state. Another thing I do find funny is everyone that is pissing and crying about your profile I have farkied as a Libtard.
 
2013-01-07 11:06:30 AM  

SkunkWerks: ChiliCon: Technical skills can be taught, personalities are much, much harder to change.

In a truly professional environ, personality shouldn't be an issue in the first place.

ChiliCon: find the toxic personalities

People who make giant douchebags of themselves (apparently on purpose) are every bit as unwelcome in a professional environ.

They are generally tolerated (perhaps even elevated) as part of an unprofessional one, I find- often for a variety of reasons unrelated to their overall performance.

ChiliCon: I would rather have a team of people that can learn the technology and get along than 1 or 2 "heroes" that make it all work but are giant pricks about it.

I'd rather not have giant pricks that spend all their day regaling me about deeply personal stuff I'd rather not know about them (usually loudly) either. Again, in an actual professional setting, neither sort of behavior is tolerated.

I'd rather not have those sorts of people welcomed and even credited with doing work they don't do simply because they're so-and-so's drinking buddy.


I agree with most of your post except that you seem to equate culture fit with "Drinking Buddy" That is not my definition.

If a person has a positive outlook; can offer a well-reasoned, well-communicated divergent positions; graciously accept winning and losing arguments; sees the possibilities and not the obstacles; and focuses on the success of the customer, then they are a good cultural fit. Unless they have no personal hygiene...

I would hire the above with minimal technical skills over an expert with 10+ years experience and lacking in one or more of those areas every time.
 
2013-01-07 11:11:40 AM  

ChiliCon: sees the possibilities and not the obstacles


You also need people who can see and predict the obstacles. If you don't plan for those obstacles, then your ability to overcome them and to reach those possibilities diminishes.

/says a long time "yes that's a great goal, here are the risks we need to mitigate in order to get there" person
//still learning how to say that in a positive, life affirming manner.
 
2013-01-07 11:13:24 AM  

FormlessOne: I work in an "at will" employment state.


That narrows it down to about fifty.
 
2013-01-07 11:17:44 AM  

BMFPitt: swingerofbirches: I did phone support from home for Apple, and one week the incentive was that if your team sold more AppleCare than another team, the other team's lead would have to dress up in drag and sing "I feel pretty" via webam (it was a virtual job). I would get messages from my team lead asking me if I was "pumped" about the contest.

Your reply might have been, "Why would I want to see the other lead have to do that? "


Or, "Actually, I think the lawsuit will be more entertaining."  There have been suits that arose from such frat house hazing games.

I would refuse to participate in such a thing the instant it was announced.
 
2013-01-07 11:19:00 AM  

Pennsylvania Dutch Oven: In a well defined and designed hiring methodology, "cultural fit" shouldn't make up more than 10 percent of a candidate's score.


Attempting to measure a candidate's suitability for a position quantitatively guarantees one of two outcomes:
1. qualified people are passed over, or inappropriate candidates hired, because there are intangible factors not accounted for in the scoring system;
2. hiring managers fudge the evaluation numbers enough to achieve the hiring decision they want in their gut.

If anything, and like everything in HR, that kind of hiring methodology's benefit is that the company ends up with a paper trail that makes them seem unbiased if there's a lawsuit.
 
2013-01-07 11:21:59 AM  

ChiliCon: except that you seem to equate culture fit with "Drinking Buddy" That is not my definition.


You seem to equate "hard-working" with "being a douchebag". Touche.

ChiliCon: That is not my definition.


Whether it's your definition or not, when you place more importance on qualities not related to work, it's what you invite. It's an environment I'm very familiar with because I work in it. Can't tell you how often I have to bite my tongue in front of some mouth-breathing mini-mind who only holds his position because of who he knows and not what he knows.

As I said upthread, the only "company culture" that's relevant to me is a professional one. One where I do my best leave my personal grudges and nitpicks at home and can reasonably expect the same from my co-workers. It's not an environment that precludes friendship, so much as it's an environ that isn't hopelessly dependent on it.

In such an environment, I presumably don't have to come off as a "giant prick" to my team mates for getting the job done because all of my "team mates" are presumably every bit as invested in the same goal as I am. By definition, people who think me "getting work done" is me "being a giant prick" are about 80% less "co-workers" by volume.
 
2013-01-07 11:24:24 AM  

Electriclectic: Where do you see yourself in five years?


That depends on whether or not you hire me. I"ll either be working here or working somewhere else. Either way I'll be doing much the same thing as I'm doing today. Squeezing every bit of BIM out of Revit as possible and making plenty of money doing it. It all just depends on who wants me making money for them as to where I'm at in 5 years.
 
2013-01-07 11:28:44 AM  

Iron Felix: In 10-15 years when the boomers are out of the workforce, applicants will be asking questions to the dic.face HR people who are rejecting them today.


Dream on. As Baby Boomers retire, many of those high-paying jobs are being phased out. As the United States continues to descend to third-world status, income inequality will continue to grow, and for more and more educated adults temp work will be the norm rather than the exception.

Welcome to the United States of Lotto, where the best jobs are fewer but higher-paying. Multinational corporations playing in global markets are no longer dependent on American consumers, so the American middle class becomes a burden rather than a boost to their bottom line and must be shrunk if not wholly eliminated. This is not a generational issue: the Gen-Xers doing much of the hiring today are just as willing to screw the middle class (all the while demanding tax breaks and other special favors from city and state governments, bankrupting the public sector) as their elders; perhaps even more so.

/baby boomer (barely; b. 1963)
//don't blame me, I'm unemployed too
 
2013-01-07 11:53:00 AM  

clane: I would have one question. Did you like the movie or book "The Help"?

[moovz.files.wordpress.com image 250x400]


Because if they didn't, they can go eat shiat?
 
2013-01-07 11:53:22 AM  

Cornelius Dribble: Iron Felix: In 10-15 years when the boomers are out of the workforce, applicants will be asking questions to the dic.face HR people who are rejecting them today.

Dream on. As Baby Boomers retire, many of those high-paying jobs are being phased out. As the United States continues to descend to third-world status, income inequality will continue to grow, and for more and more educated adults temp work will be the norm rather than the exception.

Welcome to the United States of Lotto, where the best jobs are fewer but higher-paying. Multinational corporations playing in global markets are no longer dependent on American consumers, so the American middle class becomes a burden rather than a boost to their bottom line and must be shrunk if not wholly eliminated. This is not a generational issue: the Gen-Xers doing much of the hiring today are just as willing to screw the middle class (all the while demanding tax breaks and other special favors from city and state governments, bankrupting the public sector) as their elders; perhaps even more so.

/baby boomer (barely; b. 1963)
//don't blame me, I'm unemployed too


Yeah, hilarious isn't it?
I just finished a seven-week full-time temp gig loading trucks in a distribution center for a small but well-known company in Virginia. Wages straight out of 1990, no benefits, passive-aggressive nepotistic rednecks in middle management who are married to each other, their kids "working" for some Christmas money (actually just standing around while the rest of us were nice to them), a management culture that's more interested in sustaining the cash cow than efficient operations.
First day: "We don't have time to train you to pick orders. Go load trucks."
Last day: "Too bad you don't pick orders! See ya!"

Good riddance.
 
2013-01-07 11:55:16 AM  

Ishidan: Oldiron_79: Ive had issues with "zomfg you was laid off, laid off people must have been dead wood" um no I was laid off because i was bottom of the totem pole douche. I have lots of verifiable experiance and a provable good work record.

Are you saying you were the douche, or did you call the interviewer a douche?


I've never met a people that use a totem pole to douche. That's really hard core, and awesome. Don't know how well I'd fit into the culture, or the totem pole, though.
 
2013-01-07 11:57:16 AM  

HotIgneous Intruder: GoldSpider: Mr. Eugenides: Even in situations like this though I still say that a 401-K is better than a pension.

I never understood the aversion to 401k retirement accounts. Unlike a pension, a company can't simply "loot" it.

Yes, the brokers and bankers are the ones who loot it, not the company.
It's cool sending away a percentage of everyone's paychecks to Wall Street.
And that's pre-tax, too!
Every week, Wall Street firms receive a gushing flood of money to "invest," which is never seen again, ever. And people send this money down the rabbit hole voluntarily.
That's the best part: The largest wealth transfer/theft in the history of the planet and it's voluntary on the part of those being stolen from.


How exactly do you think pension funds are any different? They both are managed by Wall St. in exchange for fees.

Pensions can be looted, underfunded, and are otherwise subject to the reality that the entity providing the pension may not exist when you retire. And they have the indentured servitude aspect of long vesting periods, locking people into jobs that they may otherwise hate.

401Ks are just much better all the way around.
 
2013-01-07 12:01:45 PM  

Meow928: I wasn't going to comment on this... but I'm bored.

Last year, with a little over a year's worth of experience - I applied to work at the nastiest, grungiest bar in my town. I've wanted to be a bartender for a long time, and even though I am currently working as one, it's in more of a snobby lounge, less of a real bar. I like the seediness of a real bar.

The bar I applied at is full of rednecks and bikers, rough republicans mostly. I myself am a rough republican with libertarian tendencies.

My interview started out well - "If I hired you, what could you bring to my bar?" I was asked. My response was "Friendly, efficient service - and I like to clean while I work" (the bar needs to be cleaned badly it is really gross). He then asked "What experience do you have?" I respond with "I graduated from bartending school before my daughter was born, and I have a little over a year's worth of real life experience" (I know two other girls with NO bartending experience who he hired later on). We briefly discussed the hours I would be available and that went well, since I sell my soul to my job and will work whatever they tell me to. But then, out of left field he says "We are coming up on the anniversary of the World Trade Center, you know, 9/11 - Do you think they're going to come after us again?" I said "Of course not, first of all it's already been done, second of all we would be expecting it!" He nodded sagely told me he would make a decision in a couple days and call me back. I called to follow up, and he had hired a friend of mine's step brother. This dude he hired is a tweeker, liberal, and didn't last 3 weeks before walking out on the job.

I am STILL mad. Truth is, I make a hell of a lot more at the lounge I work in... (and he actually did me a favor not hiring me) but I would have been an AMAZING employee for that bar. Reliable, hard working, enthusiastic, and even mostly republican. I'm still trying to figure out where things went wrong.

I post this, because it was a totally unrelated question there at the end, and I've always suspected that's where things went wrong. That or he LIKES his bar filthy and disgusting and was afraid someone cleaning it would kill the "atmosphere"


You might just be letting more Crazy into the atmosphere than you're aware of. I got a strong whiff of it just from reading your rant...
 
2013-01-07 12:02:05 PM  

OptionC: HotIgneous Intruder: GoldSpider: Mr. Eugenides: Even in situations like this though I still say that a 401-K is better than a pension.

I never understood the aversion to 401k retirement accounts. Unlike a pension, a company can't simply "loot" it.

Yes, the brokers and bankers are the ones who loot it, not the company.
It's cool sending away a percentage of everyone's paychecks to Wall Street.
And that's pre-tax, too!
Every week, Wall Street firms receive a gushing flood of money to "invest," which is never seen again, ever. And people send this money down the rabbit hole voluntarily.
That's the best part: The largest wealth transfer/theft in the history of the planet and it's voluntary on the part of those being stolen from.

How exactly do you think pension funds are any different? They both are managed by Wall St. in exchange for fees.

Pensions can be looted, underfunded, and are otherwise subject to the reality that the entity providing the pension may not exist when you retire. And they have the indentured servitude aspect of long vesting periods, locking people into jobs that they may otherwise hate.

401Ks are just much better all the way around.


I guess you're a half-full kind of farker.
Would you prefer to be hammered in the anus with a phone pole or a streetlamp?
IT'S ALL GOOD!
 
2013-01-07 12:04:16 PM  

COMMUNICATION!

 
2013-01-07 12:08:43 PM  
 
2013-01-07 12:16:15 PM  

Fark_Guy_Rob: I'm not a good culture fit. I don't like *people*, as a general rule. I really don't like my co-workers. I enjoy tasks that are similar to my job; but I don't really want to do my job. I get paid a 'fair wage' but that limits me to only put in a 'fair amount' of effort. I don't bust my ass for the good of the company, I do just enough to get 'good' reviews - nothing more. And the entire time, I have one foot out the door waiting for anything better to come along.

But I'm REALLY GOOD at interviews.

It's strange. I've had a lot of similar situations growing up. When I'm 'on' I can act a certain way - for example - high school debate or theater or being the class clown; but take that away and even though I appear outgoing and social, I just like *attention*, not the people that give it. Once I'm not 'on', I really don't care. I'm not friendly. I don't want to hear about your wife or your kids or your husband or your funny story or anything else. Meh. I just want to dick around for five hours, take a long lunch, and go home.

But put me in an interview - and bam - I'm Mr. Popular! Mr. Good Culture fit. Friendly, funny, knowledgeable...I don't know or plan what I'll say before I show up - but I'm really good at picking up on what they want me to say. Maybe, with some training, I could be some sort of cold-reading psychic...I don't know. One interview I find myself saying how work-life balance is important and how working at a big, faceless insurance company just wasn't for me; that I wanted to 'make a difference'. Got that job. Next interview I'm saying that I just wasn't challenged enough, that I was tired of doing a good job, I wanted to do a great job! I wanted to push myself and see just how far and how good I can become. Even the lunch-interview with co-workers....I could go 10 years without having lunch with a co-worker or asking them a question or caring about an answer; but when I'm on my job interview and we go out to lunch, bam, I can pretend to care. You like that sport? Oh yeah - me too! Why, I even used to play in high school. You guys are all nerds and have level 60 toons on WoW (this was years back when 60 was the cap) oh man! I love that game, let me tell you about my bot wrote! Yeah it *IS* awesome. You guys can't stand slackers who talk about WoW all day? Oh man, me neither. I had some coworkers and all they'd do is talk about stupid computer games. I mean seriously......

Whatever. All complete bullshiat. I want to do the minimum amount of work for the maximum amount of pay. I don't care what I work on. I don't care what the company does or makes or if it exploits 3rd world labor or donates profits to 3rd world countries - I just want my damn check. I'm currently in the banking/finance sector, so that's a more acceptable attitude, but I'd say it even if it weren't true in situations where I think people want to hear it.

But it's a GREAT feeling when someone tells you that you are overpaid for your work history, but offers you your asking salary. Or when they say, 'You don't quite have the qualifications we're looking for; but we are going to take a chance on you, because your a great fit for this role'.

I don't know what a better system would be, but putting a lot of value in someone's interview skills will get you candidates who are good at interviews - not good at work. If you put a value in cultural fit, you'll get people who can pretend to be likable during the interview/hiring phase.

I'm seven for seven in job interviews. If I can make it to the interview, I've gotten an offer 100% of the time. And I'm just some crappy slacker. I've got buddies from college who are twice the employee that I am, who interview poorly, who would be a MUCH BETTER choice than I - but companies are happy enough to hire a-holes like me.


Why, hello there, me from 2003!

\faking humble is a lot easier than actually being humbled. I hope your run of luck doesn't quit at JUST the wrong time...
 
2013-01-07 12:23:58 PM  

StrangeQ: clane: I would have one question. Did you like the movie or book "The Help"?

[moovz.files.wordpress.com image 250x400]

Because if they didn't, they can go eat shiat?


yew tooks the wurds right out of my mouth...
 
2013-01-07 12:26:27 PM  

HotIgneous Intruder: Google up the 401K scam.


HotIgneous Intruder: Google up the 401K scam.


Most financial advisers recommend moving your assets to lower risk investments when your investment horizon starts to shorten. All the people who lost money in their 401(k) when the stock market collapsed will likely recover their value, given enough time.

If you do not have any risk tolerance, and your goal is simply capital preservation, you can either invest in a diversified portfolio that uses a combination of stocks, bonds, and commodities to insure that you do not lose (or make) money no matter which way the market turns.

401(k)'s are not a scam. The worst that you can say is that they expose the risks and rewards to equity trading to a group of less sophisticated investors who may not understand the tradeoffs.
 
2013-01-07 12:28:06 PM  

MycroftHolmes: The worst that you can say is that they expose the risks and rewards to equity trading to a group of less sophisticated investors who may not understand the tradeoffs.


I think that's pretty bad on it's own, I don't know about you.
 
2013-01-07 12:31:33 PM  
As somebody who really enjoys her coworkers, I'm okay with vetting applicants regarding how well they would fit into the environment.
 
2013-01-07 12:34:11 PM  
all of these "401k is a scam" stories pop up when the market has a bad year.

when it has a good year, they usually shut up.

/put your 401k money in low fee index funds, whatever your age is should be the portion invested in bonds.
 
2013-01-07 12:35:46 PM  

SkunkWerks: MycroftHolmes: The worst that you can say is that they expose the risks and rewards to equity trading to a group of less sophisticated investors who may not understand the tradeoffs.

I think that's pretty bad on it's own, I don't know about you.


But it is not an inherent risk. There is plenty of sound, conservative financial advice. Most 401(k) administrators offer financial consulting. Call them up, talk to them a bit, let them understand your goals and risk threshhold, and you are fine. Calling a decision to not take responsibility for your finances a 'scam' is the same as calling someone who sold you a car you couldn't afford a scammer.
 
2013-01-07 12:38:34 PM  

The My Little Pony Killer: As somebody who really enjoys her coworkers, I'm okay with vetting applicants regarding how well they would fit into the environment.


Whenever I hired, the last interview was always between the applicant and their future coworkers. I explicitly told them I did not want to know what questions were asked, I simply wanted them to tell me if they would like to work with the applicant. They didn't have to validate their answer. They didn't have to give reasons. If an applicant set off the bad vibe meter for any reason, on to the next candidate.
 
2013-01-07 12:40:20 PM  

MycroftHolmes: Calling a decision to not take responsibility for your finances a 'scam' is the same as calling someone who sold you a car you couldn't afford a scammer.


And calling "unsophisticated investors", "investors".

There's a reason I don't play the lottery. Now it seems I must in order to retire comfortably.
 
2013-01-07 12:46:53 PM  

MycroftHolmes: 401(k)'s are not a scam. The worst that you can say is that they expose the risks and rewards to equity trading to a group of less sophisticated investors who may not understand the tradeoffs.


Yeah, about that.

/You bourgeois idiots are going to get ska-rewed.
 
2013-01-07 12:50:10 PM  
it should be illegal to deny people work because you don't like them.

life should not be a popularity contest.

grown ups should be able to work with people they don't like personally.

if you have a problem working with someone then YOU have the problem, not them.

high school ends for a reason.
 
2013-01-07 12:55:53 PM  

optimus_grime: it should be illegal to deny people work because you don't like them.

life should not be a popularity contest.

grown ups should be able to work with people they don't like personally.

if you have a problem working with someone then YOU have the problem, not them.

high school ends for a reason.


Adults are just 12-year-olds with more money. Or toddlers, depending.
Never forget that.
 
2013-01-07 01:06:24 PM  
Currently I work in a toxic work environment. The staff is fine, our clients are fine the problem is the boss. He was hired a little over a year ago and since getting here has pretty much bullied everyone. He will find something wrong with one employee and pick on them until they quit or get fired. He wrote up a guy last year for wearing a hat inside, just as he walked in from the rain. I know his bosses are looking for a reason to fire him, they have sat me down and told asked me about my observations of him and does the staff respect him. Last year he got the lowest site manager reviews in the country and had a hissy fit at the staff over it and in the year has not improved one bit, so the staff didnt even bother to fill out reviews this year about him, I told the regional manager this in our meeting. They better do something about him soon or the rats will start to jump ship and he will be left here with his buddies.
 
2013-01-07 01:08:07 PM  

optimus_grime: it should be illegal to deny people work because you don't like them.

life should not be a popularity contest.

grown ups should be able to work with people they don't like personally.

if you have a problem working with someone then YOU have the problem, not them.

high school ends for a reason.


optimus_grime: it should be illegal to deny people work because you don't like them.

life should not be a popularity contest.

grown ups should be able to work with people they don't like personally.

if you have a problem working with someone then YOU have the problem, not them.

high school ends for a reason.


This may be the most unrealistic view of adulthood ever recorded. Companies should, and are, be allowed to deny people employment if I think no one will get along with them because it's bad for business to have unhappy employees.

Life is a popularity contest, it's nearly impossible to advance if you don't have friends and allies who believe in the work that you do and aren't afraid to say good things about you to the people who don't know you yet.

Grownups are the same people they were when they were younger, including when they were in high school. They don't magically hit 18 and go, "Well, thank god that's over, now I can ignore all the petty bullshait I see around me every day." People are basically who they are from age 10.

If someone is a jerkoff to everyone around them, I really don't think it's me who has the problem. I've worked with jerkoffs before, you tolerate them because you have a job to do but you get out as soon as you can. That's bad for business.
 
2013-01-07 01:14:56 PM  

dennerman: Life is a popularity contest, it's nearly impossible to advance if you don't have friends and allies who believe in the work that you do and aren't afraid to say good things about you to the people who don't know you yet.


i.telegraph.co.uk
 
2013-01-07 01:17:50 PM  

MycroftHolmes: Calling a decision to not take responsibility for your finances a 'scam' is the same as calling someone who sold you a car you couldn't afford a scammer.


Let's not pretend that choosing between "give your money to a conservative investment fund chosen by your employer" and "give your money to a riskier investment fund chosen by your employer" comprises "talking responsibility for your finances."
 
2013-01-07 01:22:27 PM  

Nemo's Brother: Lsherm: When I was in college I was a manager for the engineering school's "tech crew" - students who fixed computers on campus.  They were cushy jobs, and there were 10 slots to hire for every year.  The first year I got to hire students I was informed by another employee that it was a "Pakistani year."  Turns out for years the Indian students and the Pakistani students had been swapping out the tech crew jobs because they refused to work with one another.  So on an Indian year, only Indian students would apply, and on a Pakistani year, only Pakistani students would apply.

I asked the employee what would happen if I hired a white or black employee, and he assured me that wouldn't happen.  I asked him why.  "Because I throw those resumes out," he said.

Few places are more racist than in the Mecca of liberal thought.


An engineering school is the Mecca of liberal thought?
 
2013-01-07 01:24:07 PM  

Fish in a Barrel: If you're lucky enough to work for a company where everyone gets along and has a good time together, that's worth a lot. When office drama is minimal, it just makes everyone's lives easier and more pleasant. It doesn't mean you hire someone who is under-qualified just because you like them, but you certainly don't want to hire or retain someone that his ruining the atmosphere for everyone. I spend 45 hours a week in the office with these people. You're damned right I want people to fit into the company culture. Not that I'm the one in charge of these things, but we do get asked about whether the newbies are fitting in before their probationary period is over.


we play games at night with the boss and drink wine in the office.
 
2013-01-07 01:38:45 PM  
"Cultural fit" is just a rebranding of the old corporate Airport Test, which in turn was a rebranding of something else back in the day. You can phrase it however you want, but ultimately it comes down to whether you, as a hiring manager, think you could tolerate a few days stuck in an airport with the candidate during a winter storm. Cultural fit is really the same thing.. would you have a beer with them?  Are they interesting? Do you think you could put up with them during any particularly stressful situation?  It's a gut check.

Most recruiters and HR people you'll talk to during a phone screen are recent college grads who don't have a clue about what the company actually does. They are reading a script, they are basically living keyword/content filters, they are underpaid, and they are mostly looking to check boxes and/or determine whether you are a douchebag before deciding whether to forward you to a hiring manager for a real interview. These days they're also usually the so-called Millennials - if you're a recent college grad who can't get a job because the man is keeping you down, it's probably one of your underpaid peers who was lucky enough to get a job that just rejected your resume.

I'm a manager in a large company and, when evaluating who I want to hire, value "cultural fit" as a criteria for many of the same reasons that have been mentioned before.  Why? Namely:

1) I have resumes for 5-10 other "qualified" candidates. Meeting the minimum qualifications is the baseline for whether we speak at all.  How you present your skills and qualifications is important.  How you appear to think about problems and your motivation/energy is also important. Skills get you in the door. Validating skills determines whether it's worth talking to you more. Lying about skills gets you booted from the interview.

2) I don't want to spend the better part of my working life with a competent yet irritating douchebag.

3) There is no "company loyalty" anymore but that doesn't mean that loyalty is dead. I may not feel loyal to any particular company, but I feel *very* loyal to my coworkers and will look out for my team.  In fact, I often hire or get hired by a member of the same 30 or so person peer group as we all slowly cycle through various jobs at companies over a period of years.   When I look at a candidate I can't help feeling a little tribal about it.  Is the person someone I could bond with over time, or is there something that just doesn't seem right?  I'm still good friends with the person who interviewed me for my first job, and the same can be said for many of the people I've hired over the years. Because we seem to care about these things, yes, it's a diverse group of professional friends with regard to gender, race, age, and culture. It's less about fitting in on the surface and more about consistently not being a total dick.

Reflecting on that, to me "fit" is a bit of a misnomer as it suggests there are set criteria that someone can "fit" into or not.  For me it's more of a gut check and a determinant of whether someone has anything to bring to the table at both a personal and professional level.

In sum, if I don't like you why should I hire you?  You truly *can't* do the job, even if you have the appropriate skills, if you are incapable of getting along with your team.
 
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