If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(BusinessWeek)   Old: "You suck at irrelevant interview questions and I don't like you." New: "You're just not a cultural fit for us"   (businessweek.com) divider line 379
    More: Asinine, interview question, American Sociological Review, Ernst & Young, job hunting, melting pot, marketing executives, Starship Enterprise, NWS  
•       •       •

20796 clicks; posted to Main » on 06 Jan 2013 at 9:23 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



379 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

Archived thread
 
2013-01-06 08:23:55 PM
Is that how they're describing nepotism now?
 
2013-01-06 08:44:19 PM
FTFA:""These trends are being driven by millennials because they care about culture," says Dan Schawbel, author of Me: 2.0. "Research shows that millennials typically stay at a job for about two years-and they have different priorities. They'd rather have meaningful work over more pay, or work for a company that gives back or cares about the environment. They want a culture that's less hierarchical, more flexible, and more understanding of difference, because millennials are the most diverse generation."

NO NO NO NO NO NO

WWII Gen: Hey I'll get a job and work at it for 20+ yrs, return you'll give me benefits like a pension
Business: Okay

Baby Boomers: I'd like what my parents had
Business: nope you'll have a 401K that we will raid and no job security

Millennials: If I'm not going to be making great money and have no job security I'd rather work someplace I like and move on when I burn out
Business: Why do you have no loyalty? come back?

If I had the choice between culture or a place that actually took care of it's employees without screwing them over I would take the security. Having fallen into IT I have to say the contractor system is not going to inspire me to do anything less then the bare minimum, what incentive do I have? I have no profit share, no chance of getting hired on (always a false carrot they dangle), and very little security. At best Millennials are just waiting for the huge delayed wave of Baby Boomer to retire and open up the job market for them, at worst you are looking at generation that will have far less opportunity and quality of life then their parents.
 
2013-01-06 08:57:44 PM
When I was in college I was a manager for the engineering school's "tech crew" - students who fixed computers on campus.  They were cushy jobs, and there were 10 slots to hire for every year.  The first year I got to hire students I was informed by another employee that it was a "Pakistani year."  Turns out for years the Indian students and the Pakistani students had been swapping out the tech crew jobs because they refused to work with one another.  So on an Indian year, only Indian students would apply, and on a Pakistani year, only Pakistani students would apply.

I asked the employee what would happen if I hired a white or black employee, and he assured me that wouldn't happen.  I asked him why.  "Because I throw those resumes out," he said.
 
2013-01-06 09:25:30 PM

edmo: Is that how they're describing nepotism now?


No, it's more Affirmative Action-y. Just not necessarily the racist kind.
 
2013-01-06 09:30:24 PM
Millenial here. I work for a company that operates almost exclusively on that premise. They'll be happy to hire you, but if three months later they decide you're not a "good culture fit," you abruptly get fired. Your first year working there is pretty stressful never knowing if you'll get fired for some arbitrary reason...but if you can make it past the one year mark, you'll most likely make it.

I didn't particularly have that attitude about jobs. It's hard enough to find one these days, why make it harder by trying to find somewhere that's warm and fuzzy?
 
2013-01-06 09:32:03 PM
I"m not going to get a job. That's it. I'm just going to do something that people will pay me for and screw working for people who want me to "culturally fit in" with them.

Your loss not mine.
 
2013-01-06 09:33:12 PM

zedster: FTFA:""These trends are being driven by millennials because they care about culture," says Dan Schawbel, author of Me: 2.0. "Research shows that millennials typically stay at a job for about two years-and they have different priorities. They'd rather have meaningful work over more pay, or work for a company that gives back or cares about the environment. They want a culture that's less hierarchical, more flexible, and more understanding of difference, because millennials are the most diverse generation."

NO NO NO NO NO NO

WWII Gen: Hey I'll get a job and work at it for 20+ yrs, return you'll give me benefits like a pension
Business: Okay

Baby Boomers: I'd like what my parents had
Business: nope you'll have a 401K that we will raid and no job security

Millennials: If I'm not going to be making great money and have no job security I'd rather work someplace I like and move on when I burn out
Business: Why do you have no loyalty? come back?

If I had the choice between culture or a place that actually took care of it's employees without screwing them over I would take the security. Having fallen into IT I have to say the contractor system is not going to inspire me to do anything less then the bare minimum, what incentive do I have? I have no profit share, no chance of getting hired on (always a false carrot they dangle), and very little security. At best Millennials are just waiting for the huge delayed wave of Baby Boomer to retire and open up the job market for them, at worst you are looking at generation that will have far less opportunity and quality of life then their parents.


perfectly put.

we're done here folks
 
2013-01-06 09:35:18 PM
fta As a result, Rivera argues, "employers don't necessarily hire the most skilled candidates."

Filling your office with less competent clones is sure to please your competition
 
2013-01-06 09:36:18 PM

zedster: FTFA:""These trends are being driven by millennials because they care about culture," says Dan Schawbel, author of Me: 2.0. "Research shows that millennials typically stay at a job for about two years-and they have different priorities. They'd rather have meaningful work over more pay, or work for a company that gives back or cares about the environment. They want a culture that's less hierarchical, more flexible, and more understanding of difference, because millennials are the most diverse generation."

NO NO NO NO NO NO

WWII Gen: Hey I'll get a job and work at it for 20+ yrs, return you'll give me benefits like a pension
Business: Okay

Baby Boomers: I'd like what my parents had
Business: nope you'll have a 401K that we will raid and no job security

Millennials: If I'm not going to be making great money and have no job security I'd rather work someplace I like and move on when I burn out
Business: Why do you have no loyalty? come back?

If I had the choice between culture or a place that actually took care of it's employees without screwing them over I would take the security. Having fallen into IT I have to say the contractor system is not going to inspire me to do anything less then the bare minimum, what incentive do I have? I have no profit share, no chance of getting hired on (always a false carrot they dangle), and very little security. At best Millennials are just waiting for the huge delayed wave of Baby Boomer to retire and open up the job market for them, at worst you are looking at generation that will have far less opportunity and quality of life then their parents.


I was lucky to fall into a job where the owners are very loyal to their employees, give us a lot of freedom to be creative and it is perhaps the best IT job I ever had. Sure it a little less pay than my last job, but it gives me a stable work place, 10 minutes away from home and I get great benefits and not crushed by depression. Sure I eventually get offered better pay somewhere else, especially when I finished working on the current programming projects but that is 2-3 years away at least. There not many places like that any more unfortunately.
 
2013-01-06 09:37:37 PM
Someone in HR once told me that the purpose of all the candidate screening was intended to discover two things:

1) can this person do the job?

2) do we like this person enough to spend 8 hours a day, every day, for years in the same room with them?
 
2013-01-06 09:37:37 PM
God Dammit, I hate the Beatles.
 
2013-01-06 09:39:20 PM
I work in a hellish place for a crappy boss in an adrift organization. But I don't complain cause it pays enough hush money.
 
2013-01-06 09:39:40 PM
In 10-15 years when the boomers are out of the workforce, applicants will be asking questions to the dic.face HR people who are rejecting them today.
 
2013-01-06 09:41:05 PM
loyalty is dead don't give employers 2 weeks notice, they won't give you 2 hours
 
2013-01-06 09:42:22 PM
Apparently I'm dating wrong.

*The More You Know*
 
2013-01-06 09:42:42 PM
I work at a software firm, and we have several stages of interview, first a technical-interview and then a team-fit interview. It's a bit like finding a girlfriend: first you figure out whether she can cook, then you see if you can get along.
 
2013-01-06 09:42:44 PM
turtlebella.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-01-06 09:44:12 PM

megarian: Apparently I'm dating wrong.

*The More You Know*


1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-01-06 09:45:34 PM
I don't culturally fit in with anyone, that's why I'm self employed. Don't bother applying because you won't culturally fit in with me.
 
2013-01-06 09:45:47 PM
If you're lucky enough to work for a company where everyone gets along and has a good time together, that's worth a lot. When office drama is minimal, it just makes everyone's lives easier and more pleasant. It doesn't mean you hire someone who is under-qualified just because you like them, but you certainly don't want to hire or retain someone that his ruining the atmosphere for everyone. I spend 45 hours a week in the office with these people. You're damned right I want people to fit into the company culture. Not that I'm the one in charge of these things, but we do get asked about whether the newbies are fitting in before their probationary period is over.
 
2013-01-06 09:46:43 PM
A resource is something that exists to be exploited.

When personnel became human resources is when it all went to hell.
 
2013-01-06 09:47:21 PM
New: "You're just not a cultural fit for us"

Translation: you're older than me and have more experience, so you're a threat.
 
2013-01-06 09:47:47 PM
What's asinine about it? Fitting into a workplace is just as important as skills.
 
2013-01-06 09:48:34 PM

limeyfellow: I was lucky to fall into a job where the owners are very loyal to their employees, give us a lot of freedom to be creative and it is perhaps the best IT job I ever had. Sure it a little less pay than my last job, but it gives me a stable work place, 10 minutes away from home and I get great benefits and not crushed by depression. Sure I eventually get offered better pay somewhere else, especially when I finished working on the current programming projects but that is 2-3 years away at least. There not many places like that any more unfortunately.


I found a place like that, sadly they got sued out of existence. I buried my grandpa on a Sunday and got laid off on that Friday due to the place going into bankruptcy. Damn 2012 was a crappy year for me
 
2013-01-06 09:48:51 PM

falcon176: loyalty is dead don't give employers 2 weeks notice, they won't give you 2 hours


My department has a little over 200 employees. Half of the staff have been there 2 years or less. There's no reason to worry about "cultural fit" if the defining cultural characteristic is turnover.
 
2013-01-06 09:51:57 PM
"Cultural Fit" is merely a way to disqualify an otherwise qualified candidate without having to disqualify them for one of those illegal reasons.
 
2013-01-06 09:53:06 PM

whatshisname: What's asinine about it? Fitting into a workplace is just as important as skills.


There's a difference between being inoffensive and being everyone's friend. If we can work together, fine. You don't have to be a "cultural fit." You must not smell like spoiled goat cheese, however.
 
2013-01-06 09:53:56 PM
I have, in the past, just refused to answer bullshiat questions. I am polite, but I explain that I don't really understand how that pertains to me performing my job tasks, and if I ever came in to work with a DVD player to screen my favorite movie, or expected to just knock off for a month to go to the south of France in the summer, I wouldn't be working there anyway.

I've actually gotten jobs after that.

Of course, where I live there is a hideous worker shortage and you can show up to an interview with poo in your pants and be fine. So I dunno.

But seriously, I do NOT socialize with my coworkers. I do not talk to my coworkers. I do not share personal or private information with my coworkers. It's none of their damn business and I will not play games or jockey for position. This is, incidentally, why I will never be in charge of anything, but fark it. I don't like the admission price.
 
2013-01-06 09:56:02 PM
No wonder I ended up getting a civil service job. None of the crap mentioned in the article, and I get decent pay, benefits, and retirement.
 
2013-01-06 09:58:27 PM
So working is about more than prior work experience.

And this is new.

OK then.
 
2013-01-06 09:58:41 PM

phrawgh: [turtlebella.files.wordpress.com image 348x450]


Mr Interviewer asks : "So, where are you more likely to be found on any given weekend? On the golf course, or enjoying a cold one at a family barbecue in a city park but no one bothered to get permission for use of the shelter or to serve beer?"
 
2013-01-06 09:59:07 PM

zedster: Business: Why do you have no loyalty? come back?That's OK, we'll get the government to import a bunch of third world indentured servants to work for half what we'd pay you otherwise.

 
2013-01-06 09:59:22 PM
If I had a nickel for every time I got to the final stage of an interview process and heard the "not a cultural fit" line....

/eventually learned to stop saying "start my own software company" when asked about my long term goals.
//telling people what they want to hear really is a good idea during job interviews.
 
2013-01-06 10:02:04 PM

falcon176: loyalty is dead don't give employers 2 weeks notice, they won't give you 2 hours


Let me guess, you've gotten the "Here's a box, clean out your desk, your computer access has already been locked, this security guard will make sure you don't take company property with you" treatment at least once.

*checks profile*

Why I can't imagine why somebody would do such a thing to a person with SUCH a charming personality.
 
2013-01-06 10:02:36 PM
Asinine tag is asinine. When I've been in charge of hiring, you'd better believe that "cultural fit" (I didn't use stupid terms like that) was just as important as skill set. I'd take someone with slightly less skills but who would be a great fit for our team and my management style than someone with great skills who wouldn't be right for our workplace. If a person fits well with the rest of the staff and is someone you feel good about working with/managing, that a huge plus over someone who will be an outcast on your staff or who you'll hate working with. You can teach them, they'll have the support of their colleagues, the whole team will function better as a team, the new employee will be happier (and thus more productive and receptive to learning), and so on.

So yeah, your skills aren't the only thing that matters. This is nothing new. And it just makes sense.
 
2013-01-06 10:02:43 PM
The moment an interviewer starts asking me about hobbies, vacations, and movie/musical preferences instead of why I'm qualified to do the job, I know the job is bullshiat.
Interviews go both ways, HR goons.
 
2013-01-06 10:02:46 PM
I've conducted plenty of job interviews in my time, and cultural fit has always been a consideration when I'm considering whether to recommend a hire.

However, most of the questions cited in that article are borderline, if not outright, illegal. Asking an interviewee questions that have nothing to do with their ability to perform the job in question is asking for trouble.

Finding a cultural fit is more about picking up on aspects of the interviewee's personality. How you believe they will fit in with the rest of the company, it's people, and it's procedures. How well they will pick up on things and be able to contribure. Asking where they go on vacation is just stupid.
 
2013-01-06 10:03:40 PM
what makes you uncomfortable?

People asking me stupid questions
 
2013-01-06 10:05:06 PM
I once got asked 'what was the last movie I saw'.
 
2013-01-06 10:05:50 PM
I work in an "at will" employment state. "Cultural fit" is rampant here, but it's not considered as important as your skill set. However, it is a deciding factor when it comes to multiple candidates - and given that I work in the competitive industry that is software development in Washington, "cultural fit" is important.

"Bleeding edge" implies that you're current - and not just on your skills, but on your audience, your customer, your mindset, your...everything, really. So, cultural relevance can be important, because it implies self-motivation - information is a pull, not a push, for you. You'll seek out the new, not wait until it's thrust at you, and you'll deal with it as you encounter it, not as it encounters you. This is even more important if you're in a decision-making position. Can't be bothered to stay current or seek out new information? Well, you're not going to make decisions that will place a company ahead of its competitors. You're not going to design games that will approach not just this generation, but the next generation, of gamers. You're not going to have that "deep dive" detail needed to stay on top of trends in your particular niche industry. You're not going to be "bleeding edge."

Just how does an employer find that out, though? The set of barely-tangibles for that characteristic are very specific to not just an industry, but to a company and even a team. Often, those barely-tangibles are determined by having a lead or manager observe a team not just during working hours, but by ensuring personal connections with them and observing what they do for recreation, hobbies, and other tangential activities. People with similar skill sets can be wildly divergent in terms of success or failure, and so the "little things" tend to matter more when deciding which one gets the job.

So, yeah, "cultural fit" can be misused to screen out candidates using criteria typically considered unethical or lillegal, but it also can be used to ensure you've the right people for the job. Far too many "paper tigers" in the software development industry - folks that look great on paper, but are near-useless in person - coupled with coaching on how to ace a technical interview make "cultural fit" a useful criterion.
 
2013-01-06 10:06:17 PM
I'm always curious; what metrics do HR personnel use to justify their processes and techniques? Do they have actual evidence that their system of irrelevant and arbitrary qualifiers results in better hires than, say, letting some random person in the office pick somebody?
 
2013-01-06 10:06:20 PM

GilRuiz1: Someone in HR once told me that the purpose of all the candidate screening was intended to discover two things:

1) can this person do the job?

2) do we like this person enough to spend 8 hours a day, every day, for years in the same room with them?


Exactly.

And yes, BOTH things are important. No one is suggesting hiring an incompetent just because you like them, but all things being equal you pick someone who gets a "yes" on question #2, and if all things are not equal, but they're at least close, you still go with the "yes" on #2.

Obviously that changes if the person just isn't suited for the job. That should go without saying.
 
2013-01-06 10:06:59 PM

ModernLuddite: I have, in the past, just refused to answer bullshiat questions. I am polite, but I explain that I don't really understand how that pertains to me performing my job tasks, and if I ever came in to work with a DVD player to screen my favorite movie, or expected to just knock off for a month to go to the south of France in the summer, I wouldn't be working there anyway.

I've actually gotten jobs after that.

Of course, where I live there is a hideous worker shortage and you can show up to an interview with poo in your pants and be fine. So I dunno.

But seriously, I do NOT socialize with my coworkers. I do not talk to my coworkers. I do not share personal or private information with my coworkers. It's none of their damn business and I will not play games or jockey for position. This is, incidentally, why I will never be in charge of anything, but fark it. I don't like the admission price.


Amen.
 
2013-01-06 10:07:12 PM
An ex girlfriend was helping her boss interview candidates for a position. After the boss left the room, the candidate says "wow I hope I don't have to work for her, that woman is a biatch!"

Needless to say, she didn't get the job.

//she did file and EEO complaint claiming racism though.
 
2013-01-06 10:07:30 PM
savingslifestyle.com
www.somethingimpressive.com
 
2013-01-06 10:08:07 PM

Omnivorous: New: "You're just not a cultural fit for us"

Translation: you're older than me and have more experience, so you're a threat.


Or you're younger than me and have no experience, so you're a threat.
/you know, rookie farks up, everybody else has to fix it...well, depending on the magnitude of the farkup and whether the interviewer is held responsible for the misadventures of the people he hires...
 
2013-01-06 10:09:46 PM

whatshisname: What's asinine about it? Fitting into a workplace is just as important as skills.


A hundred times this.

The company I work for has a fantastic organizational culture, in part because we hire people who mesh well together. Collaboration in small teams is critical for the work we do (research/analysis), so having someone who doesn't fit with the culture is a potential buzzkill to the quality of our outputs.

I often get called on to conduct peer interviews of potential recruits, and you're damn right I'm looking to make sure the individual fits well with the org culture. By the time people get the peer interview stage, we know they have the skills to do the job. The question is: will we like spending time for over 40 hours a week with this person? Between two equally qualified candidates, I'm going to pick the outgoing, energetic individual who has similar interests to the rest of the team - they're going to jive better in the department then someone who is equally qualified but has no interest in contributing to the org culture.
 
2013-01-06 10:11:34 PM

texdent: I once got asked 'what was the last movie I saw'.


Most of the time the answers aren't important, it's your ability to answer a question you haven't thought about in advance and how you answer it. They don't give a shiat if you last watched 40 Year Old Virgin, they just want to see how well you react, your personality, etc. The actual answer doesn't matter. The manner in which you answer does.
 
2013-01-06 10:12:38 PM
"what would you say your biggest weakness is?"

"tolerating bullshiat interviews."
 
2013-01-06 10:13:31 PM
Sorry, you didn't get the job. Yes, you are qualified but you are a boring asshole.
 
2013-01-06 10:15:03 PM

Ishidan: falcon176: loyalty is dead don't give employers 2 weeks notice, they won't give you 2 hours

Let me guess, you've gotten the "Here's a box, clean out your desk, your computer access has already been locked, this security guard will make sure you don't take company property with you" treatment at least once.

*checks profile*

Why I can't imagine why somebody would do such a thing to a person with SUCH a charming personality.


checking profiles to judge people while having a profile that says "I piss people off"
mine says the same thing but it's longer get on my level kiddo
 
2013-01-06 10:15:08 PM

jcadam: If I had a nickel for every time I got to the final stage of an interview process and heard the "not a cultural fit" line....

/eventually learned to stop saying "start my own software company" when asked about my long term goals.
//telling people what they want to hear really is a good idea during job interviews.


I can't imagine how saying "I hope to one day quit this job" would be a bad statement to make. :)
 
2013-01-06 10:15:14 PM

Ishidan: falcon176: loyalty is dead don't give employers 2 weeks notice, they won't give you 2 hours

Let me guess, you've gotten the "Here's a box, clean out your desk, your computer access has already been locked, this security guard will make sure you don't take company property with you" treatment at least once.

*checks profile*

Why I can't imagine why somebody would do such a thing to a person with SUCH a charming personality.



Oh I can.

Serious douchebaggery.
 
2013-01-06 10:15:26 PM
i'm NOT an outgoing "people person" so when the interviewer is looking for a buddy or a fluid exchange of pointless small talk, it's game over for me. like i'd even WANT to work for a company that heralds fluffy social behavior over quality of work.
 
2013-01-06 10:19:37 PM

Smacker: I'm always curious; what metrics do HR personnel use to justify their processes and techniques? Do they have actual evidence that their system of irrelevant and arbitrary qualifiers results in better hires than, say, letting some random person in the office pick somebody?


THIS.

My interviews are pretty straightforward. Ask questions with one right answer and many wrong ones, and count how many right answers they give. I'm concerned only with competence, because you at least have a hope of measuring competence and using it to objectively compare candidates. I don't care if you like golf or play poker on weekends. Are you smart and can you get shiat done? Those are the only relevant measurements.

shoegaze99: When I've been in charge of hiring, you'd better believe that "cultural fit" (I didn't use stupid terms like that) was just as important as skill set. I'd take someone with slightly less skills but who would be a great fit for our team and my management style than someone with great skills who wouldn't be right for our workplace. If a person fits well with the rest of the staff and is someone you feel good about working with/managing, that a huge plus over someone who will be an outcast on your staff or who you'll hate working with.


This kind of mentality is how likable frat boys get hired over people who studied hard and know their shiat. Feel lucky you don't have a "Google equivalent" in your industry to compete with.
 
2013-01-06 10:20:08 PM

Does not culturally fit together:


www.fivesistersproductions.com


/Beet farms

 
2013-01-06 10:20:41 PM
Weirdest question anyone asked me in a job interview: "What would you do if you were on a bus and someone was drunk and threw up in the aisle?"

Somehow I must have given the right answer. I was offered the job, and accepted it. Didn't stay long. The place was stranger than the interview.
 
2013-01-06 10:21:31 PM

my alt's alt's alt: i'm NOT an outgoing "people person" so when the interviewer is looking for a buddy or a fluid exchange of pointless small talk, it's game over for me. like i'd even WANT to work for a company that heralds fluffy social behavior over quality of work.


Problem is, the two aren't disconnected in a lot of jobs. What you call "fluffy social behaviour" could just as easily be called good interpersonal/collaboration skills. And the blunt fact of the matter is, those are important. I've seen firsthand the differences in quality that result from teams that really jive well together, and teams where effective collaboration is killed by a lack of cohesion or overly introverted people.

Yes, there are a lot of jobs where being introverted isn't as big a deal. But a lot of knowledge worker type positions require people who enjoy interacting with others.

The other reason employers care about "fluffy social behaviour" is that even if there's not a direct impact of said behaviour on employee collaboration, a sociable workplace often boosts employee morale and engagement, which in turn leads to higher job satisfaction and less turnover costs.
 
2013-01-06 10:23:08 PM
csb...
Funny that they chose an accounting firm as the first example. I had to go through that type of process myself at PricewaterhouseCoopers but it wasn't with the people in HR. They scheduled me to have a couple of lunch outings with current staff members. The first lunch was with a group of 3 managers and the second lunch was with associates and senior associates. I knew I had to be absolutely on my best behavior. No swearing, no politically-incorrect speech, steer clear of anything negative, try to be as blandly unoffensive as possible. Got the job.

Later when it was my turn to be on the other side of the table, they brought us in for a meeting run by the woman who was head of HR. We were given a long list of "no-no discussion items", and also told what sort of qualities we should be looking for in candidates. Most of the candidates were pretty good, but we had a couple who were clearly not cut out for the firm. One guy was a top accounting student from USC, but he used the word "fark" a few times during lunch, which upset one of my female coworkers quite a bit. Didn't bother me too much, but it did make me question the guy's judgement - this was clearly a job interview disguised as lunch.

The culture there ended up being too uptight for my personality, and it felt pretty good when I left.
 
2013-01-06 10:23:12 PM

my alt's alt's alt: "what would you say your biggest weakness is?"

"tolerating bullshiat interviews."


That's a strength. If you can tolerate bullshiat interviews you can tolerate bullshiat meetings.
 
2013-01-06 10:23:41 PM

stiletto_the_wise: This kind of mentality is how likable frat boys get hired over people who studied hard and know their shiat.


If you're incapable of telling the difference between a likable bullshiatter and a likeable person who can also do the job, you have no business hiring people in the first place.

/the general "you," not the specific, obviously.
 
2013-01-06 10:24:56 PM
I interviewed at Pillsbury this last year, and really enjoyed how they did things. There was a quick phone interview with HR, just to go over education, history, and other boring matters, and then you had an interview day at the plant. You spend the entire day at the facility, take a tour, have lunch with your potential teammates, and interview with 4 or 5 other people from various departments along the way. It was a nice way to interview, and I think a even better way to gauge "cultural fit" than asking canned personal questions.
 
2013-01-06 10:25:08 PM

shoegaze99: I'd take someone with slightly less skills but who would be a great fit for our team and my management style than someone with great skills who wouldn't be right for our workplace.


What defines this, though? It doesn't seem to be movies and hobbies, like they are suggesting asking about. At my last job before going back to school, the person with the most similar hobbies was probably the person I got along with the worst of anyone. On the other hand, there were plenty of people quite different from me who I got along with fine.
 
2013-01-06 10:25:12 PM
www.hrneurope.com
 
2013-01-06 10:25:15 PM

my alt's alt's alt: "what would you say your biggest weakness is?"

"tolerating bullshiat interviews."


"Bullets."

"Green kryptonite."

"Games that require timed jumps."
 
2013-01-06 10:26:31 PM

shoegaze99: stiletto_the_wise: This kind of mentality is how likable frat boys get hired over people who studied hard and know their shiat.

If you're incapable of telling the difference between a likable bullshiatter and a likeable person who can also do the job, you have no business hiring people in the first place.

/the general "you," not the specific, obviously.


I take it that you never worked in banking.

/good god, hopefully never again
 
2013-01-06 10:26:53 PM

stiletto_the_wise: This kind of mentality is how likable frat boys get hired over people who studied hard and know their shiat. Feel lucky you don't have a "Google equivalent" in your industry to compete with.

You're creating a false dichotomy between "qualified" and "sociable/cultural fit". This isn't the case. Most employers often have more than one well-qualified candidate. So they're going to pick the candidate who is qualified AND will work well on their team. It's not an either/or situation in most cases, especially given it's still an employer's market in most industries.
 
2013-01-06 10:27:49 PM

falcon176: checking profiles to judge people while having a profile that says "I piss people off"
mine says the same thing but it's longer get on my level kiddo


Get on MY level.
It's called efficiency.
 
2013-01-06 10:28:25 PM
"what would you say your biggest weakness is?"

Blunt honesty. . . That's an inane, loaded question that you are only asking because it's on your script.
 
2013-01-06 10:30:05 PM

DiggidyDan: "what would you say your biggest weakness is?"

Blunt honesty. . . That's an inane, loaded question that you are only asking because it's on your script.


This is probably one of the most useless interview questions ever. It's so common that most people, unless they're completely clueless, will have some carefully crafted non-weakness "weakness" to respond with.
 
2013-01-06 10:30:55 PM

zedster: FTFA:""These trends are being driven by millennials because they care about culture," says Dan Schawbel, author of Me: 2.0. "Research shows that millennials typically stay at a job for about two years-and they have different priorities. They'd rather have meaningful work over more pay, or work for a company that gives back or cares about the environment. They want a culture that's less hierarchical, more flexible, and more understanding of difference, because millennials are the most diverse generation."

NO NO NO NO NO NO

WWII Gen: Hey I'll get a job and work at it for 20+ yrs, return you'll give me benefits like a pension
Business: Okay

Baby Boomers: I'd like what my parents had
Business: nope you'll have a 401K that we will raid and no job security

Millennials: If I'm not going to be making great money and have no job security I'd rather work someplace I like and move on when I burn out
Business: Why do you have no loyalty? come back?

If I had the choice between culture or a place that actually took care of it's employees without screwing them over I would take the security. Having fallen into IT I have to say the contractor system is not going to inspire me to do anything less then the bare minimum, what incentive do I have? I have no profit share, no chance of getting hired on (always a false carrot they dangle), and very little security. At best Millennials are just waiting for the huge delayed wave of Baby Boomer to retire and open up the job market for them, at worst you are looking at generation that will have far less opportunity and quality of life then their parents.


Dan Schawbel, from that quote, seems to be under the asinine impression that employees have (or ever had) the choice to determine if their company--or businesses at large--would have a sense of loyalty to their employees that they do not have. I agree that it'd be sweet to be able to find and remain at a secure, long-term job without being completely screwed over in one's old age, but I don't think that is applicable to the vast majority of Americans.
 
2013-01-06 10:32:22 PM
Bullshiat.

Otherwise why would companies continue to rely on work visas? Those Indians from one of many diploma mills is not a cultural fit, nor do they wish to be.
 
2013-01-06 10:32:34 PM

Sygonus: Problem is, the two aren't disconnected in a lot of jobs. What you call "fluffy social behaviour" could just as easily be called good interpersonal/collaboration skills. And the blunt fact of the matter is, those are important. I've seen firsthand the differences in quality that result from teams that really jive well together, and teams where effective collaboration is killed by a lack of cohesion or overly introverted people.


Right. Someone with great skills who is also office poison can impact your entire staff, dragging everyone down with them. Those people are toxic. They can be the most highly skilled person you can imagine, but if they're dragging down morale and preventing your staff from functioning as a team, you're better off with someone else.

No one is asking that everyone be buddy buddy, hanging out on weekends, etc etc, but getting along with everyone else? Yeah, that's important.

The other reason employers care about "fluffy social behaviour" is that even if there's not a direct impact of said behaviour on employee collaboration, a sociable workplace often boosts employee morale and engagement, which in turn leads to higher job satisfaction and less turnover costs.

Right again.

At my last office, my staff was a good group, loyal and consistent. No turnover to speak of. People came on board and they routinely stayed with us 5+ years. Everyone got along well, and when it was crunch time I knew I could rely on everyone to gel really well. Another team we worked closely with, the hiring handled by someone else, was plagued by constant turnover. I think the average stay was about 9 months. They hated one another, everyone else hated them, they couldn't do their job, they didn't function as a team. They routinely fumbled projects and had no cohesion. It came down to poor hiring choices.
 
2013-01-06 10:32:41 PM

falcon176: loyalty is dead don't give employers 2 weeks notice, they won't give you 2 hours


I remember at the first staff meeting I had with my job, our CEO told my department that if we didn't like our jobs, he's always taking resignations (although his demeanor implied "turn in your access card and go play in traffic"). I won't even mention what we have to do if we want to leave with our accrued vacation time. My state is "at-will," so I could be fired the moment I walk into work tomorrow and I'm under no obligation to give them any notice or reason whenever I quit. Either situation makes me look bad because of a little thing called social conditioning.
 
2013-01-06 10:32:51 PM

ReverendJasen: I interviewed at Pillsbury this last year, and really enjoyed how they did things. There was a quick phone interview with HR, just to go over education, history, and other boring matters, and then you had an interview day at the plant. You spend the entire day at the facility, take a tour, have lunch with your potential teammates, and interview with 4 or 5 other people from various departments along the way. It was a nice way to interview, and I think a even better way to gauge "cultural fit" than asking canned personal questions.


That was the way my interview for my first job was at a university. Meeting with search committee, tour of the building with the immediate supervisor, interview with the dean, lunch with the staff, meeting with the department, presentation, last meeting with the search committee. You get to meet everybody including in an informal session.
 
2013-01-06 10:34:09 PM

Lsherm: When I was in college I was a manager for the engineering school's "tech crew" - students who fixed computers on campus.  They were cushy jobs, and there were 10 slots to hire for every year.  The first year I got to hire students I was informed by another employee that it was a "Pakistani year."  Turns out for years the Indian students and the Pakistani students had been swapping out the tech crew jobs because they refused to work with one another.  So on an Indian year, only Indian students would apply, and on a Pakistani year, only Pakistani students would apply.

I asked the employee what would happen if I hired a white or black employee, and he assured me that wouldn't happen.  I asked him why.  "Because I throw those resumes out," he said.


Few places are more racist than in the Mecca of liberal thought.
 
2013-01-06 10:36:39 PM
I just got a new senior level IT job and sat through a panel interview with 8 engineers grilling me for an hour and a half.

HR wasn't involved in my interview process at all, other than helping me fill out the required paperwork once I was hired. I'm assuming they've checked my creds, college and stuff, but haven't had any contact with them about anything.

That is how it should be.
 
2013-01-06 10:37:31 PM
i've interviewed at zappos many times for multiple positions. they usually decide that i'm not a 'cultural fit', sometime around the time i say ' hey if maybe you took a break from the cube wars and telling everyone how wacky you guys are and hired real security guys like me, you maybe you wouldn't have had that security breach back in January'. really, they're not interested in people that WANT to get shiat done, they want people who spend 2 hours a day writing haikus in Klingon. It's been a year since their breach, they still don't have an infosec program put together. Like I told their "ZISO" the last time I talked with him "culture is fine. culture is fun, but at some point you have the let the serious guys roll up their shirtsleeves and do serious things. It's not cool, it's not hip, but it's how you keep your data".
 
2013-01-06 10:37:31 PM
To play devil's advocate for a moment:

It's not such a black and white issue. If I have two candidates in front of me, one with excellent qualifications and an OK personality and the other has good qualifications but a great personality, I'm going with the latter.

The ability to interact with other human beings, play well with others, and generally not walk around like you're the hottest shiat since sliced bread goes a long way.

/ A software manager who would blame sun spots and your own personal failings before her code is on maternity leave.
// I sincerely hope she never comes back.
/// Hired on qualifications alone (by someone else). QED.
 
KIA
2013-01-06 10:37:46 PM
From the interviewing side, it is incredibly hard to filter for malcontents and incompetents. I have had people tell me to my face: "I think it is my job to help you get things done so you look good" then turn around the day after the probationary period ended and say "Well, sure, but I can't learn stuff from a manual or powerpoint, so you'll have to do it yourself." I've had people get upset - upset! - when I told them their vacation approval was conditional upon coverage for tasks, making sure email was up to date before they leave and basic out-of-office procedure was followed. At that point, they divulged that they were 700 emails behind and felt that I was intentionally killing their vacation by making them answer their emails.

One classic case, after the person got a $50.00 holiday gift card and quit in a huff, the cleaning crew (who came in after 7:00 PM while I was still there working every night after everyone else went home) said "Wow, we're surprised she lasted that long." When questioned, they said she was drinking on the job. When asked how they knew that, they said "Oh, we could tell when you were out of the office because there would be beer bottles in her trash can. When you were in the office, they were in the ladies' restroom trashcan."
 
2013-01-06 10:38:48 PM

Mitrovarr: What defines this, though? It doesn't seem to be movies and hobbies, like they are suggesting asking about. At my last job before going back to school, the person with the most similar hobbies was probably the person I got along with the worst of anyone. On the other hand, there were plenty of people quite different from me who I got along with fine.


I don't think you can define it. I don't think there is some formula, and I think suggesting there can be would be a bad idea. If you're good with people, knowing them and reading them and getting them to reveal themselves, you can probably gauge whether or not they'll fit.

You're absolutely right, it's not about hobbies or what movies you like or any of that other nonsense. It's about the kind of person you are. That's why I said about, the answer to "what's the last movie you saw?" doesn't matter. What matters is the way in which you answer it. And in that case, "right" really depends on the workplace and the people there.

Sygonus: You're creating a false dichotomy between "qualified" and "sociable/cultural fit". This isn't the case. Most employers often have more than one well-qualified candidate. So they're going to pick the candidate who is qualified AND will work well on their team. It's not an either/or situation in most cases, especially given it's still an employer's market in most industries.


Exactly. Especially these days, most employers have multiple qualified candidates to choose from. Some in this thread seem to be treating this like it's a black and white, binary choice. But that's rarely ever the case, especially now.
 
2013-01-06 10:39:02 PM
It's farking weird out there right now. I've never seen anything like it. I'm well qualified, over-qualified in many cases, for the jobs I've been applying for and have never had a single problem getting work before. I've always gotten accolades for my work and was well-liked everywhere I worked. What people in this thread don't seem to be understanding is that nowadays, their definition of "company culture" is less about finding someone who will get along with everyone else to help create the most productive environment possible and it's more about trying to create a clubhouse atmosphere. Ever seen the marketing or production departments at Revision3, CNET, or the like? It's more like a frat house than anything. Now I constantly lose out to kids that seem like they'd be better bar buddies than me. Three months later, the exact same job is back up because the kid couldn't handle the real work involved. I try again, get told again that I'm not a good cultural fit, they hire some kid that seems like he might be a blast to go grab some Pad Thai with, they shiatcan him two months later because he started crying the second he opened After Effects to do his first project without a template or a teacher holding his hand, wash, rinse, repeat. Thankfully I'm not the only source of income and make enough freelancing to fill the gaps. I'm about to give it one more go. If I find something, great. If not, fark it. Time to take the risk and fully strike out on my own. They want to be stuck in perpetual amateur hour because they're more concerned with finding a bestie? They're welcome to it.
 
2013-01-06 10:39:31 PM
What's your favorite movie?
--Tyler Perry
Where would you like to visit?
--Detroit
What makes you nervous?
--Cowboys
Thanks for coming in.
 
2013-01-06 10:39:32 PM

falcon176: loyalty is dead don't give employers 2 weeks notice, they won't give you 2 hours


Protip: Swing things correctly you can keep your old job for months after starting your new one.

\You think I'm not serious...
 
2013-01-06 10:40:05 PM

It's Me Bender: zedster: Business: Why do you have no loyalty? come back?That's OK, we'll get the government to import outsource those positions to a bunch of third world indentured servants to work for half what we'd pay you otherwise.

/ftfy
 
2013-01-06 10:40:11 PM
I had a guy once ask me to name my favorite sci-fi book, along with several other "nerd cred" questions. This was at one of those startups so perhaps not that surprising.

/didn't take the job for other reasons
 
2013-01-06 10:40:15 PM

falcon176: loyalty is dead don't give employers 2 weeks notice, they won't give you 2 hours


Are you kidding? For anyone who's ever given their employer a 2 week notice, that may end up being the best 2 weeks that you will ever have on the job. You can come in late. You can leave early. You can take an extra long lunch. You can work at half speed, or not even work at all. Nobody's going to say shiat about it because you have the ultimate comeback: "So, what are you going to do? Fire me? Ha ha ha ha!". Then for two weeks of barely showing up, they give you a check as you walk out the door. WINNAR!
 
2013-01-06 10:40:27 PM

Aces and Eights: Weirdest question anyone asked me in a job interview: "What would you do if you were on a bus and someone was drunk and threw up in the aisle?"

Somehow I must have given the right answer. I was offered the job, and accepted it. Didn't stay long. The place was stranger than the interview.


How did you respond?
 
2013-01-06 10:40:48 PM
Ive had issues with "zomfg you was laid off, laid off people must have been dead wood" um no I was laid off because i was bottom of the totem pole douche. I have lots of verifiable experiance and a provable good work record.
 
2013-01-06 10:42:14 PM

ReverendJasen: I interviewed at Pillsbury this last year, and really enjoyed how they did things. There was a quick phone interview with HR, just to go over education, history, and other boring matters, and then you had an interview day at the plant. You spend the entire day at the facility, take a tour, have lunch with your potential teammates, and interview with 4 or 5 other people from various departments along the way. It was a nice way to interview, and I think a even better way to gauge "cultural fit" than asking canned personal questions.


In a conference room across a desk, I might add. Which is when humble workers stumble and stutter, but bullshiat artists shine.

I like this approach.
 
2013-01-06 10:43:31 PM
"It was a programmatic non-fit..."...(obscure?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DlUZh64Ivc skip to 2:25
 
2013-01-06 10:43:38 PM
What's your favorite movie? What's your favorite website? What's the last book you read for fun? What makes you uncomfortable?

- None of your business
- None of your business
- None of your business
- A rock in my shoe

/Not a good cultural fit with any company that thinks these are important questions to ask in a job interview.
 
2013-01-06 10:45:37 PM

KIA: I've had people get upset - upset! - when I told them their vacation approval was conditional upon coverage for tasks, making sure email was up to date before they leave and basic out-of-office procedure was followed. At that point, they divulged that they were 700 emails behind and felt that I was intentionally killing their vacation by making them answer their emails.


Bizarre. I'm on a fairly intense project at present - we go RTM in about 7-8 weeks - so I can't imagine being 700 emails behind. I went on vacation during the last week of December, to enjoy the usual Christmas to New Years Day break, and of course was asked to do the above - it took about 15 minutes, because, well, I'd been doing my job all along. (The biggest fear for our team is having someone leave files checked out in our source control environment - email's trivial compared to the "ensure your crap's checked in" demand.) That's not a "goody-goody for me" utterance, as the rest of our team does the same thing on a routine basis - that's just standard operating procedure. I provide this tiny CSB because I can't imagine anyone becoming upset at doing what's considered the absolute minimum for an expected absence...
 
2013-01-06 10:48:03 PM

Lsherm: Turns out for years the Indian students and the Pakistani students had been swapping out the tech crew jobs because they refused to work with one another.


Seems legit. IIRC, they had a thing for threatening each other with nuclear warfare not too long ago.
 
2013-01-06 10:49:16 PM
OK, personalities can clash, and there are fit/no fit extremes out there. However, can you really tell someone's "cultural" aspects from an interview? I've seen people hired who are charismatic and make a great first impression -- only to turn out to be failures or farked in the head (or both).

If only they'd asked the right question at the start, they could have weeded out those Star Wars fanboy losers...

[ducks]
 
2013-01-06 10:49:30 PM
Its so damn hard to fire people today that these questions help weed out the people who just wont fit in.
 
2013-01-06 10:50:33 PM
This is not new.
 
2013-01-06 10:50:54 PM

BokerBill: What's your favorite movie? What's your favorite website? What's the last book you read for fun? What makes you uncomfortable?

- None of your business
- None of your business
- None of your business
- A rock in my shoe

/Not a good cultural fit with any company that thinks these are important questions to ask in a job interview.


Do you give douchy answers to those questions when they're asked in a casual setting? Because what's being measured here is your ability to have a normal conversation that doesn't involve "talking shop."

It's a little jarring and their purpose is pretty transparent these days, but they can also serve as a bit of an ice breaker in a normally tense situation, like, say, a job interview.
 
2013-01-06 10:51:48 PM

CthulhuCalling: i've interviewed at zappos many times for multiple positions. they usually decide that i'm not a 'cultural fit', sometime around the time i say ' hey if maybe you took a break from the cube wars and telling everyone how wacky you guys are and hired real security guys like me, you maybe you wouldn't have had that security breach back in January'. really, they're not interested in people that WANT to get shiat done, they want people who spend 2 hours a day writing haikus in Klingon. It's been a year since their breach, they still don't have an infosec program put together. Like I told their "ZISO" the last time I talked with him "culture is fine. culture is fun, but at some point you have the let the serious guys roll up their shirtsleeves and do serious things. It's not cool, it's not hip, but it's how you keep your data".


So why keep applying? Apply to a company that takes security seriously, and let the goofy hippy shoe-retailers do whatever they want. There's plenty of serious companies out there...any one with a military contract would be a good start, I'd think.

Just saying.
 
2013-01-06 10:52:00 PM

itsfullofstars: Its so damn hard to fire people today that these questions help weed out the people who just wont fit in.


I take it that you live in one of the few states that aren't fire-at-will aka "right to work"
 
2013-01-06 10:53:28 PM

Oldiron_79: Ive had issues with "zomfg you was laid off, laid off people must have been dead wood" um no I was laid off because i was bottom of the totem pole douche. I have lots of verifiable experiance and a provable good work record.


Are you saying you were the douche, or did you call the interviewer a douche?
 
KIA
2013-01-06 10:55:05 PM

FormlessOne: I can't imagine anyone becoming upset at doing what's considered the absolute minimum for an expected absence...


I am of a similar mindset. Here's the followup: the employee was so upset that they tried the "I'm not speaking to you" thing. Then they went to top HR with a complaint and... I could almost weep with joy here, need a moment *sniffle* HR came back to them with a letter - and I shiat you not - that not only told them (in corporatespeak) to STFU and GBTW, but also quoted the dictionary definition of "insubordination" and cited chapter and verse from the manual what happens to insubordinate employees.

/ Love the current HR rep
// As a completely socially and politically appropriate expression of appreciation and figure of speech, not to be taken literally
 
2013-01-06 10:55:09 PM
GilRuiz1
2013-01-06 09:37:37 PM

Someone in HR once told me that the purpose of all the candidate screening was intended to discover two things:

1) can this person do the job?

2) do we like this person enough to spend 8 hours a day, every day, for years in the same room with them?


Yes, very much THIS.

/ HR drone
// kill me . . .
 
2013-01-06 10:55:32 PM

xsarien: BokerBill: What's your favorite movie? What's your favorite website? What's the last book you read for fun? What makes you uncomfortable?

- None of your business
- None of your business
- None of your business
- A rock in my shoe

/Not a good cultural fit with any company that thinks these are important questions to ask in a job interview.

Do you give douchy answers to those questions when they're asked in a casual setting? Because what's being measured here is your ability to have a normal conversation that doesn't involve "talking shop."

It's a little jarring and their purpose is pretty transparent these days, but they can also serve as a bit of an ice breaker in a normally tense situation, like, say, a job interview.


On the other hand, discovering the folks carrying the "YER NOT THE BOSS A' ME!" chip on their shoulders in four questions or less makes a job interview go that much faster.
 
2013-01-06 10:56:12 PM
Oh, great. So the First Date Fart Hold™ applies to work now?
 
2013-01-06 10:56:20 PM

Sygonus: whatshisname: What's asinine about it? Fitting into a workplace is just as important as skills.

A hundred times this.

...

Between two equally qualified candidates, I'm going to pick the outgoing, energetic individual who has similar interests to the rest of the team - they're going to jive better in the department then someone who is equally qualified but has no interest in contributing to the org culture.


Which is why the people who were bullies in high school continue in that role in the corporate world.

Because "social skills" trump "knowledge" and "competence" every time.

Sad.
 
2013-01-06 10:57:18 PM

GilRuiz1: Someone in HR once told me that the purpose of all the candidate screening was intended to discover two things:1) can this person do the job?2) do we like this person enough to spend 8 hours a day, every day, for years in the same room with them?


Exactly, but look at it from the other side. As a prospective job seeker I seriously wonder if I could stand to spend 40+ hours a week with fellow employees of a prospective employer, but what chance do I have to find that out? Short of having overwhelming qualifications, being a job seeker feels like being a desperate groveler.

"Star Trek or Star Wars?"
"Which one fits in better here?"

/Had one job that worked out for five+ years, temp to perm until regionalization brought my layoff. I can hardly imagine where to start out again.

//I like to think I'm reasonably smart, hard-working and competent, but I feel like my chances of being a stunning cultural fit anywhere are negligible, so this article depresses me.
 
2013-01-06 10:57:19 PM
Back when I was on the job market, I was just happy if they even got back to me to tell I didn't have the job. If I had a dollar for every time I was told something to the effect of, "we'll be making a decision very soon and I'll definitely let you know one way or the other whether you got the position", I wouldn't need the job I have.

/ended up working for a place part time more or less interning, eventually was made full time after several months
//love the place I work for, even if upper management makes decisions like they have minimal brain damage sometimes
 
2013-01-06 10:57:32 PM

Ishidan: Oldiron_79: Ive had issues with "zomfg you was laid off, laid off people must have been dead wood" um no I was laid off because i was bottom of the totem pole douche. I have lots of verifiable experiance and a provable good work record.

Are you saying you were the douche, or did you call the interviewer a douche?


I had assumed he was referring to a specialized device called a "totem pole douche", used by indigenous Americans to clean beetle infestations from totem poles, and that the guy stuck with the bottom of that specialized device has, traditionally, the least seniority on the team that deploys that particular device.
 
2013-01-06 10:57:45 PM

Nemo's Brother: Lsherm: When I was in college I was a manager for the engineering school's "tech crew" - students who fixed computers on campus.  They were cushy jobs, and there were 10 slots to hire for every year.  The first year I got to hire students I was informed by another employee that it was a "Pakistani year."  Turns out for years the Indian students and the Pakistani students had been swapping out the tech crew jobs because they refused to work with one another.  So on an Indian year, only Indian students would apply, and on a Pakistani year, only Pakistani students would apply.

I asked the employee what would happen if I hired a white or black employee, and he assured me that wouldn't happen.  I asked him why.  "Because I throw those resumes out," he said.

Few places are more racist than in the Mecca of liberal thought.


This has nothing to do with liberals, dumbass. This is racism practiced by certain ethnic groups who would scream bloody blue murder if anybody discriminated against them.
 
2013-01-06 10:58:57 PM

AloysiusSnuffleupagus: Sygonus: whatshisname: What's asinine about it? Fitting into a workplace is just as important as skills.

A hundred times this.

...

Between two equally qualified candidates, I'm going to pick the outgoing, energetic individual who has similar interests to the rest of the team - they're going to jive better in the department then someone who is equally qualified but has no interest in contributing to the org culture.

Which is why the people who were bullies in high school continue in that role in the corporate world.

Because "social skills" trump "knowledge" and "competence" every time.

Sad.


I think you either missed the bolded part, or you're too stupid to know the difference.
 
2013-01-06 10:59:22 PM
It must be nice to be in an industry where you can afford to bypass the most skilled workers because they were not cool enough for you.
 
2013-01-06 11:00:00 PM
Glad my job interview was more technical questions that actually pertained to the position I was applying for and not bullshiat social ones. Feels good working a job where my ability to fix stuff is more important than what I did over the weekend.
 
2013-01-06 11:00:00 PM

Notabunny: fta As a result, Rivera argues, "employers don't necessarily hire the most skilled candidates."

Filling your office with less competent clones is sure to please your competition


It's working wonders here. It's amazing we're still open.
 
2013-01-06 11:00:34 PM

AloysiusSnuffleupagus: Which is why the people who were bullies in high school continue in that role in the corporate world.

Because "social skills" trump "knowledge" and "competence" every time.


Did you even read the post you're responding to?

I ask because your response seems to have no bearing on what he/she said.
 
2013-01-06 11:02:20 PM

Aces and Eights: Weirdest question anyone asked me in a job interview: "What would you do if you were on a bus and someone was drunk and threw up in the aisle?"

Somehow I must have given the right answer. I was offered the job, and accepted it. Didn't stay long. The place was stranger than the interview.


I would get off the bus as soon as possible. Last thing I need is the bus driver yelling at me to clean up my mess.
 
2013-01-06 11:03:07 PM
"What are things I have said to prospective employers at an interview, Alex?"
 
2013-01-06 11:03:30 PM
Also "cultural fit" is not the same things as "communication skills".  I know some frat boy in a cushy job is going to get butthurt at me for implying that cold hard technical skills are the only important thing, which I didn't do.
 
2013-01-06 11:03:51 PM

Ishidan: CthulhuCalling: i've interviewed at zappos many times for multiple positions. they usually decide that i'm not a 'cultural fit', sometime around the time i say ' hey if maybe you took a break from the cube wars and telling everyone how wacky you guys are and hired real security guys like me, you maybe you wouldn't have had that security breach back in January'. really, they're not interested in people that WANT to get shiat done, they want people who spend 2 hours a day writing haikus in Klingon. It's been a year since their breach, they still don't have an infosec program put together. Like I told their "ZISO" the last time I talked with him "culture is fine. culture is fun, but at some point you have the let the serious guys roll up their shirtsleeves and do serious things. It's not cool, it's not hip, but it's how you keep your data".

So why keep applying? Apply to a company that takes security seriously, and let the goofy hippy shoe-retailers do whatever they want. There's plenty of serious companies out there...any one with a military contract would be a good start, I'd think.

Just saying.


I don't apply anymore, and I say "good day, sir" whenever any headhunter calls with a fantastic opportunity in my area working for a high-tech, progressive, Fortune 500 company looking for a security professional. Then I usually have to tell when why Zappos can go fark themselves as far as I'm concerned. Zappos doesn't want professionals, they want guys with big Nerf gun collections, and a lot of pajamas to wear on Hawaiian shirt day.
 
2013-01-06 11:04:17 PM
Would you like to hear my Google interview story?

It's rather amusing. If a little sad.
 
2013-01-06 11:04:24 PM

hdhale: Back when I was on the job market, I was just happy if they even got back to me to tell I didn't have the job. If I had a dollar for every time I was told something to the effect of, "we'll be making a decision very soon and I'll definitely let you know one way or the other whether you got the position", I wouldn't need the job I have.


Ran into a couple of those over the last decade or so. It's easy to handle - mentally give them a time limit, say, 5 days or so, and if they haven't made a decision by then, call them and explain that they can remove you from consideration. Ensure that you've followed up with them at least twice - immediately after the interview, and three days after the interview, if they didn't give you a specific decision timeframe or didn't contact you within that three day window. If they haven't responded within three days of your second contact, then, let's face it, you're not their first pick and they're farming for more candidates. If they've given you a specific decision timeframe, wait until that timeframe has passed for that second follow-up, and then wait three days after that before closing the door.

I've had to tell two different recruiters that very thing, because they couldn't figure out how to operate a telephone or an inbox - an employer that isn't willing to communicate with you during the hiring process, probably won't be communicating with you during the actual job, either. That's a real problem if you're a contractor, as I was, because problems can come up fast and you don't have time to wait a week for a turnaround. Also, I don't want to lose a week's networking time, and I certainly don't want to lose a week's pay, all so some lackadasical recruiter can shine me on. No one's got time for that these days.
 
2013-01-06 11:05:43 PM

bingethinker: Nemo's Brother: Lsherm: When I was in college I was a manager for the engineering school's "tech crew" - students who fixed computers on campus.  They were cushy jobs, and there were 10 slots to hire for every year.  The first year I got to hire students I was informed by another employee that it was a "Pakistani year."  Turns out for years the Indian students and the Pakistani students had been swapping out the tech crew jobs because they refused to work with one another.  So on an Indian year, only Indian students would apply, and on a Pakistani year, only Pakistani students would apply.

I asked the employee what would happen if I hired a white or black employee, and he assured me that wouldn't happen.  I asked him why.  "Because I throw those resumes out," he said.

Few places are more racist than in the Mecca of liberal thought.

This has nothing to do with liberals, dumbass. This is racism practiced by certain ethnic groups who would scream bloody blue murder if anybody discriminated against them.


Non-white racism is actively embraced by the liberal think thank. After all, who are you to judge, Mr. Oppressor?
 
2013-01-06 11:07:43 PM

stiletto_the_wise: This kind of mentality is how likable frat boys get hired over people who studied hard and know their shiat. Feel lucky you don't have a "Google equivalent" in your industry to compete with.


Google seems to be one of the worst companies at this.  I believe they're good at hiring high-quality people but seem to have ridiculous criteria, but I suppose when you have so many people wanting to work for you, you can afford to lose a lot of very good candidates here and there for silly reasons.
 
2013-01-06 11:08:33 PM

Atomic Spunk: AloysiusSnuffleupagus: Sygonus: whatshisname: What's asinine about it? Fitting into a workplace is just as important as skills.

A hundred times this.

...

Between two equally qualified candidates, I'm going to pick the outgoing, energetic individual who has similar interests to the rest of the team - they're going to jive better in the department then someone who is equally qualified but has no interest in contributing to the org culture.

Which is why the people who were bullies in high school continue in that role in the corporate world.

Because "social skills" trump "knowledge" and "competence" every time.

Sad.

I think you either missed the bolded part, or you're too stupid to know the difference.


Yeah I read it, and you and the guy who posted immediately after you seem to be the type of people of whom I speak.

So let's not split hairs about "all things being equal". Because we all know, and the comments and article itself acknowledge, that the less qualified and dumber applicant who is the better sycophant has the leg up on the more qualified and smarter applicant who isn't as skilled in kissing ass.

So go fark yourself.
 
2013-01-06 11:08:45 PM

stiletto_the_wise: "Cultural Fit" is merely a way to disqualify an otherwise qualified candidate without having to disqualify them for one of those illegal reasons.


Bullshiat. I got told I wasn't a good fit just a few weeks ago and I'm a white male. They don't need an excuse to not hire me and I got the not a good fit song and dance anyway.
 
2013-01-06 11:09:08 PM

The Stealth Hippopotamus: The truckers will get you alive


rantnravewithjohn.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-01-06 11:09:27 PM
I've interviewed candidates for a couple of different outfits I've worked for, and I can say that I did look for the ones that would fit in better than others, all other things being equal.

The one exception to that was when I was interviewing people for a job on a remote atoll that was 1500 miles away from the nearest emergent land. If somebody was an ass on day one, the next flight out was two weeks away...you don't want that guy ever setting foot there if you can help it, so yeah, I did ask 'cultural fit' type questions in that situation, simply because I'd seen the result of NOT asking those kinds of questions in other departments, and those people would make everyone around them miserable 24/7 (remember, isolated island...you live with your co-workers).

Otherwise, though, I find 'cultural fit' questions to be BS for a 8-5 job. If they can do it and not not manage to piss everybody else off, even if they aren't going to be buddies with everyone in the office, that's good.
 
2013-01-06 11:09:51 PM

FormlessOne: I had assumed he was referring to a specialized device called a "totem pole douche", used by indigenous Americans to clean beetle infestations from totem poles, and that the guy stuck with the bottom of that specialized device has, traditionally, the least seniority on the team that deploys that particular device.


HA!
 
2013-01-06 11:09:52 PM
Our crews are together 24/7 for anywhere from 3 weeks to 14 weeks. Trust me, "cultural fit" keeps our homicide rate low. Even still, after about the 35th day, you have shiat to say to each other unless its directly related to the task at hand.....

/work in the oil patch
 
2013-01-06 11:11:17 PM

AloysiusSnuffleupagus: So go fark yourself.


You sound charming. I can't imagine why you appear to be carrying around deep-seated bitterness from your high school days.
 
2013-01-06 11:12:22 PM

zedster: FTFA:""These trends are being driven by millennials because they care about culture," says Dan Schawbel, author of Me: 2.0. "Research shows that millennials typically stay at a job for about two years-and they have different priorities. They'd rather have meaningful work over more pay, or work for a company that gives back or cares about the environment. They want a culture that's less hierarchical, more flexible, and more understanding of difference, because millennials are the most diverse generation."

NO NO NO NO NO NO

WWII Gen: Hey I'll get a job and work at it for 20+ yrs, return you'll give me benefits like a pension
Business: Okay

Baby Boomers: I'd like what my parents had
Business: nope you'll have a 401K that we will raid and no job security

Millennials: If I'm not going to be making great money and have no job security I'd rather work someplace I like and move on when I burn out
Business: Why do you have no loyalty? come back?

If I had the choice between culture or a place that actually took care of it's employees without screwing them over I would take the security. Having fallen into IT I have to say the contractor system is not going to inspire me to do anything less then the bare minimum, what incentive do I have? I have no profit share, no chance of getting hired on (always a false carrot they dangle), and very little security. At best Millennials are just waiting for the huge delayed wave of Baby Boomer to retire and open up the job market for them, at worst you are looking at generation that will have far less opportunity and quality of life then their parents.


Nail on the head. As a gen x member who thinks millenials expect to be rewarded before paying their dues, I realize they are hep to the realization that you don't get rewarded for paying your dues anymore anyway. Company loyalty is a two way street, any every company that asks why they have no loyalty should be asking what they've done to earn loyalty in the last 30 years.
 
2013-01-06 11:12:25 PM

Nemo's Brother: Aces and Eights: Weirdest question anyone asked me in a job interview: "What would you do if you were on a bus and someone was drunk and threw up in the aisle?"

Somehow I must have given the right answer. I was offered the job, and accepted it. Didn't stay long. The place was stranger than the interview.

How did you respond?


After stammering awkwardly for a while, I said I would alert the driver, check to see if the person needed medical attention, and ask for something to help clean up the mess. Then wash my hands thoroughly and see what I could do to make sure the person got home safely.

(Did not mention I would secretly gag and later throw away my shoes, although I was thinking that).
 
2013-01-06 11:13:51 PM

The Stealth Hippopotamus: First question in every interview I conduct: "so, Star Was or Star Trek?"

First it show me how the person reacts to a curve ball if the candidate is off guard and nervous that's bad if it gets them to relax that's good. If they get off guard by such a simple question than they'll never make it in shipping. The truckers will get you alive. Second it keeps all the damn Trekkers away from me.

The last girl I hired answered "Firefly". Best filing clerk we got.


You're a fan of Star Was? That explains a lot.
 
2013-01-06 11:14:07 PM

redmid17: Aces and Eights: Weirdest question anyone asked me in a job interview: "What would you do if you were on a bus and someone was drunk and threw up in the aisle?"

Somehow I must have given the right answer. I was offered the job, and accepted it. Didn't stay long. The place was stranger than the interview.

I would get off the bus as soon as possible. Last thing I need is the bus driver yelling at me to clean up my mess.


Ha!
 
2013-01-06 11:14:36 PM

shoegaze99: texdent: I once got asked 'what was the last movie I saw'.

Most of the time the answers aren't important, it's your ability to answer a question you haven't thought about in advance and how you answer it. They don't give a shiat if you last watched 40 Year Old Virgin, they just want to see how well you react, your personality, etc. The actual answer doesn't matter. The manner in which you answer does.


Ditto for the "gotcha" lateral thinking questions. They are hoping not to hear a canned response or watch you sweat and say fark it, who knows.
 
2013-01-06 11:16:24 PM

zedster: The Stealth Hippopotamus: The truckers will get you alive


Yeah yeah yeah EAT you alive.

Farking from my phone. Give me a break.

What is that picture from?
 
2013-01-06 11:17:03 PM

AloysiusSnuffleupagus:
So let's not split hairs about "all things being equal". Because we all know, and the comments and article itself acknowledge, that the less qualified and dumber applicant who is the better sycophant has the leg up on the more qualified and smarter applicant who isn't as skilled in kissing ass.


Incorrect. You're just using a defense mechanism to help you feel better about not getting a job. "I'm WAY more knowledgeable, but I won't kiss ass, so FARK THEM! WAHHHHH!"

Chances are pretty good that you not only have a crappy personality which doomed you from the start, but you were neither more knowledgeable nor more qualified. They picked someone better. Get over it.
 
2013-01-06 11:17:17 PM

The Stealth Hippopotamus: What is that picture from?


lead singer of Drive By-Truckers
 
2013-01-06 11:18:04 PM

Bucky Katt: The Stealth Hippopotamus: First question in every interview I conduct: "so, Star Was or Star Trek?"

First it show me how the person reacts to a curve ball if the candidate is off guard and nervous that's bad if it gets them to relax that's good. If they get off guard by such a simple question than they'll never make it in shipping. The truckers will get you alive. Second it keeps all the damn Trekkers away from me.

The last girl I hired answered "Firefly". Best filing clerk we got.

You're a fan of Star Was? That explains a lot.


Damn the English Teacher Brigade is out in force tonight.
 
2013-01-06 11:19:16 PM

zedster: The Stealth Hippopotamus: What is that picture from?

lead singer of Drive By-Truckers


Oh. I'll have to look them up.


Thanks
 
2013-01-06 11:19:27 PM

Atomic Spunk: Are you kidding? For anyone who's ever given their employer a 2 week notice, that may end up being the best 2 weeks that you will ever have on the job.


In my experience, a 2 week notice turns into being wished well 2 days later by HR as they tell you just go ahead and leave early. Many companies are real jumpy about employees that are leaving, even under good terms.
 
2013-01-06 11:21:14 PM
I prefer the Les Nesman approach to co-workers. I tape off my area, and expect people to knock.

/I also show up with a band-aid or bandage on a different part of my body everyday.
 
2013-01-06 11:21:56 PM
Biggest problem in our society: High School never ends.
 
2013-01-06 11:21:57 PM

tripleseven: Would you like to hear my Google interview story?

It's rather amusing. If a little sad.


*pours beer*
*pops popcorn*
*hands em around*

Yes,
 
2013-01-06 11:23:06 PM

FormlessOne: xsarien: BokerBill: What's your favorite movie? What's your favorite website? What's the last book you read for fun? What makes you uncomfortable?

- None of your business
- None of your business
- None of your business
- A rock in my shoe

/Not a good cultural fit with any company that thinks these are important questions to ask in a job interview.

Do you give douchy answers to those questions when they're asked in a casual setting? Because what's being measured here is your ability to have a normal conversation that doesn't involve "talking shop."

It's a little jarring and their purpose is pretty transparent these days, but they can also serve as a bit of an ice breaker in a normally tense situation, like, say, a job interview.

On the other hand, discovering the folks carrying the "YER NOT THE BOSS A' ME!" chip on their shoulders in four questions or less makes a job interview go that much faster.


Oh, you're getting favorites for that onr
 
2013-01-06 11:23:08 PM
Some of us are grown ups and really tire of games. Both in relationships and at work.

The last time I interviewed for a job, one place had me run the gauntlet interviewing with 10 different people (for a half hour, each) culminating with the big boss who asked me some "WTF" questions. As in, "Seriously, I have no idea what you're talking about and I'm not sure what the appropriate response is." In the back of my mind was "what was the point of that?".

I might add, I have a doctoral-level degree and the question was about being replaced by technology which doesn't exist and won't during my lifetime.

So yeah, I really tire of the stupid questions.
 
2013-01-06 11:23:22 PM

The Stealth Hippopotamus: zedster: The Stealth Hippopotamus: What is that picture from?

lead singer of Drive By-Truckers

Oh. I'll have to look them up.


Thanks


Alt Country/Southern Rock Band

I suggest giving Southern Rock Opera a listen. It's a double disk concept album that tells the story of the South in the 50s-70s and Lynyrd Skynyrd. They have a lot of history in their songs for example they have a song about Sun records called Carl Perkin's Cadillac. The song is about the owner of Sun Records, Sam Philliups promising the first person to get a hit on his label would get a Caddie. Carl Perkin's had his one hit a month before Elvis and before Cash who was also on the label, thus winning the Caddie.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Rock_Opera
 
2013-01-06 11:24:46 PM
When I was a recruiter, along w/the normal interview questions, I would give a "general knowledge test":  Name 5 European capitols, how many inches in a yard, name 1 of the 7 wonders of the world, what is the equator...real 5th grade stuff, 10 questions in total.  And it would appall me how many applicants couldn't answer more than 2 or 3.  I found that test to be a far better indicator of an applicant's qualifications than any job history or stupid "where do you see yourself in 5 years" questions.

I have no problem with ascertaining a "cultural fit" or very basic personality.  You could be the most brilliant coder in the world but, if you're not going to fit in well with the rest of the coding team, you're not going to stay at that job.

/Strangest question I ever got on a job interview:  "What is the meaning of life?"
//It was for an IT company and I answered, "42".
///Interviewer (Director of sales) paused for a split second, cracked up, and said, "You just got yourself into the second round of interviews!"
 
2013-01-06 11:25:04 PM

Atomic Spunk: AloysiusSnuffleupagus:
So let's not split hairs about "all things being equal". Because we all know, and the comments and article itself acknowledge, that the less qualified and dumber applicant who is the better sycophant has the leg up on the more qualified and smarter applicant who isn't as skilled in kissing ass.


Incorrect. You're just using a defense mechanism to help you feel better about not getting a job. "I'm WAY more knowledgeable, but I won't kiss ass, so FARK THEM! WAHHHHH!"

Chances are pretty good that you not only have a crappy personality which doomed you from the start, but you were neither more knowledgeable nor more qualified. They picked someone better. Get over it.


I have a job, asshole.
 
2013-01-06 11:26:40 PM

Sygonus: whatshisname: What's asinine about it? Fitting into a workplace is just as important as skills.

A hundred times this.

The company I work for has a fantastic organizational culture, in part because we hire people who mesh well together. Collaboration in small teams is critical for the work we do (research/analysis), so having someone who doesn't fit with the culture is a potential buzzkill to the quality of our outputs.

I often get called on to conduct peer interviews of potential recruits, and you're damn right I'm looking to make sure the individual fits well with the org culture. By the time people get the peer interview stage, we know they have the skills to do the job. The question is: will we like spending time for over 40 hours a week with this person? Between two equally qualified candidates, I'm going to pick the outgoing, energetic individual who has similar interests to the rest of the team - they're going to jive better in the department then someone who is equally qualified but has no interest in contributing to the org culture.


Sounds like a good way to practice age discrimination, but not worry about those pesky lawsuits.
 
2013-01-06 11:28:26 PM
What's your favorite movie? What's your favorite website? What's the last book you read for fun? What makes you uncomfortable?

Tie: Judgment at Nuremberg, A Clockwork Orange

Fark, really

Reread of Republican Party Reptile

Dining in a group that is rude/woefully undertips the staff and being in a golf group that holds up play.

/get off my lawn
 
2013-01-06 11:29:33 PM
I wasn't going to comment on this... but I'm bored.

Last year, with a little over a year's worth of experience - I applied to work at the nastiest, grungiest bar in my town. I've wanted to be a bartender for a long time, and even though I am currently working as one, it's in more of a snobby lounge, less of a real bar. I like the seediness of a real bar.

The bar I applied at is full of rednecks and bikers, rough republicans mostly. I myself am a rough republican with libertarian tendencies.

My interview started out well - "If I hired you, what could you bring to my bar?" I was asked. My response was "Friendly, efficient service - and I like to clean while I work" (the bar needs to be cleaned badly it is really gross). He then asked "What experience do you have?" I respond with "I graduated from bartending school before my daughter was born, and I have a little over a year's worth of real life experience" (I know two other girls with NO bartending experience who he hired later on). We briefly discussed the hours I would be available and that went well, since I sell my soul to my job and will work whatever they tell me to. But then, out of left field he says "We are coming up on the anniversary of the World Trade Center, you know, 9/11 - Do you think they're going to come after us again?" I said "Of course not, first of all it's already been done, second of all we would be expecting it!" He nodded sagely told me he would make a decision in a couple days and call me back. I called to follow up, and he had hired a friend of mine's step brother. This dude he hired is a tweeker, liberal, and didn't last 3 weeks before walking out on the job.

I am STILL mad. Truth is, I make a hell of a lot more at the lounge I work in... (and he actually did me a favor not hiring me) but I would have been an AMAZING employee for that bar. Reliable, hard working, enthusiastic, and even mostly republican. I'm still trying to figure out where things went wrong.

I post this, because it was a totally unrelated question there at the end, and I've always suspected that's where things went wrong. That or he LIKES his bar filthy and disgusting and was afraid someone cleaning it would kill the "atmosphere"
 
2013-01-06 11:30:11 PM

AloysiusSnuffleupagus:
I have a job, asshole.


Hey, good for you! I guess it's not a job where you would be expected to know what the phrase "Between two equally qualified candidates..." means.
 
2013-01-06 11:31:03 PM
Went on a interview once that gave me a "scenario" to answer.

The scenario: "You're a line lead working on the line with someone who has a personal problem with you and has let you know that they don't like you. Eventually, the situation escalates and this co-worker is refusing to accept any direction from you. How do you resolve this situation?"

My response: "I would tell the co-worker to act like a professional and do what we were hired to do, this isn't high school and I don't care if they are not my friend. Then I would go to my superior to inform them why we're not getting work done."

Apparently, my answer was not the one they were looking for, I didn't get the job.
 
2013-01-06 11:31:11 PM

AloysiusSnuffleupagus: Some of us are grown ups and really tire of games. Both in relationships and at work.


I am stunned, absolutely stunned, that you have had difficulty in relationships.
 
2013-01-06 11:32:58 PM

zedster: The Stealth Hippopotamus: zedster: The Stealth Hippopotamus: What is that picture from?

lead singer of Drive By-Truckers

Oh. I'll have to look them up.


Thanks

Alt Country/Southern Rock Band

I suggest giving Southern Rock Opera a listen. It's a double disk concept album that tells the story of the South in the 50s-70s and Lynyrd Skynyrd. They have a lot of history in their songs for example they have a song about Sun records called Carl Perkin's Cadillac. The song is about the owner of Sun Records, Sam Philliups promising the first person to get a hit on his label would get a Caddie. Carl Perkin's had his one hit a month before Elvis and before Cash who was also on the label, thus winning the Caddie.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Rock_Opera


Sharing that tidbit at certain places might denote that you're not a "cultural fit".
 
2013-01-06 11:33:52 PM
Also --- surprised I have to post this. Would have thought someone else would have already.

Monty Python's Job Interview
 
2013-01-06 11:34:54 PM

MBA Whore: GilRuiz1
2013-01-06 09:37:37 PM

Someone in HR once told me that the purpose of all the candidate screening was intended to discover two things:

1) can this person do the job?

2) do we like this person enough to spend 8 hours a day, every day, for years in the same room with them?


Yes, very much THIS.

/ HR drone
// kill me . . .


So why then do companies outsource HR, IT, manufacturing, janitorial, etc?

They have almost zero say in who the outsourcing company hires to do the work?
 
2013-01-06 11:36:33 PM

Bucky Katt: itsfullofstars: Its so damn hard to fire people today that these questions help weed out the people who just wont fit in.

I take it that you live in one of the few states that aren't fire-at-will aka "right to work"


You're thinking of at will employment, not right to work. Right to work is where you don't have to pay union dues if you don't want to. At will employment is when the employer can fire you at any time for any reason, as long as it doesn't violate the various Civil Rights Acts. Pretty much everybody outside of a union or CBA has at will employment in the US.
 
KIA
2013-01-06 11:38:21 PM

Meow928: I post this, because it was a totally unrelated question there at the end, and I've always suspected that's where things went wrong.


I read that as: You wouldn't be able to chew the late-night fat with the conspiracy theorists who pay the bills there and you don't have a perky smile or anything else to keep their attention, so you got nothing he needs.
 
2013-01-06 11:40:30 PM

KIA: Meow928: I post this, because it was a totally unrelated question there at the end, and I've always suspected that's where things went wrong.

I read that as: You wouldn't be able to chew the late-night fat with the conspiracy theorists who pay the bills there and you don't have a perky smile or anything else to keep their attention, so you got nothing he needs.


And he, like you, would be wrong. I was trying to keep my conspiracy theory crazy under wraps to get a job. Who wants to hire some nutso who thinks it was an inside job?
 
KIA
2013-01-06 11:41:42 PM
Er... that may have come across as far harsher than I meant. Lemme 'splain. What I meant was, well, they're bikers. They have limited interests and perspectives on the world. If you can't talk the talk or if you come across as "better than them" or something other than a bimbo, you wouldn't be well received.
 
2013-01-06 11:41:49 PM

zedster: FTFA:""These trends are being driven by millennials because they care about culture," says Dan Schawbel, author of Me: 2.0. "Research shows that millennials typically stay at a job for about two years-and they have different priorities. They'd rather have meaningful work over more pay, or work for a company that gives back or cares about the environment. They want a culture that's less hierarchical, more flexible, and more understanding of difference, because millennials are the most diverse generation."

NO NO NO NO NO NO

WWII Gen: Hey I'll get a job and work at it for 20+ yrs, return you'll give me benefits like a pension
Business: Okay

Baby Boomers: I'd like what my parents had
Business: nope you'll have a 401K that we will raid and no job security

Millennials: If I'm not going to be making great money and have no job security I'd rather work someplace I like and move on when I burn out
Business: Why do you have no loyalty? come back?

If I had the choice between culture or a place that actually took care of it's employees without screwing them over I would take the security. Having fallen into IT I have to say the contractor system is not going to inspire me to do anything less then the bare minimum, what incentive do I have? I have no profit share, no chance of getting hired on (always a false carrot they dangle), and very little security. At best Millennials are just waiting for the huge delayed wave of Baby Boomer to retire and open up the job market for them, at worst you are looking at generation that will have far less opportunity and quality of life then their parents.


Aaaaand summed up. As an IT guy, I know precisely what you mean. The only people who make any money in IT anymore (as I see it) are either developers or the master-of-all-trades rockstars. Everyone is relegated to tech support in an indefinite contractor role.
 
2013-01-06 11:42:16 PM

Meow928: Also --- surprised I have to post this. Would have thought someone else would have already.

Monty Python's Job Interview


Or this one:

Chase/Pryor word association interview (NSFW)
 
2013-01-06 11:42:31 PM

Meow928: graduated from bartending school before my daughter was born, and I have a little over a year's worth of real life experience" (I know two other girls with NO bartending experience who he hired later on)...
That or he LIKES his bar filthy and disgusting and was afraid someone cleaning it would kill the "atmosphere"

Bingo. The last thing he wanted is some educated smartypants telling him how to run his bar.
With your education and experience, you'd be able to spot every health code violation...every time the till didn't add up...every time the 'top shelf pour' bottles mysteriously gained a few inches...
Hire know-nothings that he can fool into doing whatever he likes.
And your last question really was an ideological test-after all, if what you said was true then there'd be no need for the TSA, no need for 'security background checks', no need for, basically, all the things that today's Republicans like to spend money on so that they can be suspicious of the brown people.
 
2013-01-06 11:43:27 PM
I understand the importance of needing to get along with people. I agree that it should be a factor when hiring someone, but it shouldn't be the sole or most important factor. Being a nice guy that everyone likes does not make them a good employee.

For instance, I manage a small sub-team where I didn't get to choose my team. I have one guy on my team who is a super cool guy that everyone likes. He has a very outgoing charismatic personality. However, the guy is completely counterproductive and useless to me. He volunteers to do tasks he has no intention of completing. He makes suggestions that will never work in the context of our project or we don't have the resources to implement and then lobbies (in a very charming way) why we should do them despite being told repeatedly why they're unreasonable. He's flaky and unreliable and either doesn't show up to meetings or shows up late. That being said, I love the guy as a person. I would hang out with him all day and have a great time. However, I would never work with him again. I want to get rid of him, but everyone loves him as a person so my boss doesn't want to fire him. He just tells me to expect that he's not going to do anything and work around him. What's the point?

Of course I have another guy who is a total weirdo who is the contrary to every idea and just comes up with bizarre stuff that is 99% of the time the worst idea anyone could have ever thought of - he just has bad instincts period. He's also useless to me, but again I can't get rid of him either (although if I pushed hard enough I probably could since no one likes him). So I've seen both sides of the spectrum.

The second guy is the poster child for why these cultural fit questions are important and the first guy is the poster child of why they shouldn't be the most important criteria for hiring.
 
KIA
2013-01-06 11:43:31 PM
Ugh. Having now alienated the intellectual bikers, Ima gonna retire for the night.
 
2013-01-06 11:44:07 PM

AloysiusSnuffleupagus: Sygonus: whatshisname: What's asinine about it? Fitting into a workplace is just as important as skills.

A hundred times this.

...

Between two equally qualified candidates, I'm going to pick the outgoing, energetic individual who has similar interests to the rest of the team - they're going to jive better in the department then someone who is equally qualified but has no interest in contributing to the org culture.

Which is why the people who were bullies in high school continue in that role in the corporate world.

Because "social skills" trump "knowledge" and "competence" every time.

Sad.



There's an old joke about two guys who are out in the woods when a bear appears and charges at them, one guy calmly unlaces his boots and throws on some running shoes while the other guy screams, " Are you crazy? You can't outrun a bear!"

The guy with the running shoes starts to run, and says, "I don't have to outrun the bear. I just have to outrun you."

So....

It's not that the candidates being interviewed have to have brilliant "social skills", it's just that they have to have more social skills than the clone of farking Sheldon from Big Bang Theory that was interviewed the day before.
 
2013-01-06 11:44:48 PM

Iron Felix: In 10-15 years when the boomers are out of the workforce, applicants will be asking questions to the dic.face HR people who are rejecting them today.


baby boomers cover 1946 - 1964 so yeah, there's your 10 - 15 years.

i love whining youngster job threads. the sooner you find out every generation gets screwed by the man the better off you are. if you weren't born to money or connections you most probably will never step in shiat. idiots that ask "so where's my incentive?" should ask themselves:

so do i like to eat daily? so should i walk 45 miles each way? so what about a roof over my head?

it takes a long time before employers are wiling to pay, if they ever are. they have a screw you set up for everyone of every age. businesses are horribly run all over and up and down the Fortune 500 list. it's always someone else that catches the breaks. quit whining and get to work, you'll get noticed.

BIG SAD REALITY: in way too many areas there are a crap load of good paying jobs held tightly by people who have no need to work. they have money or married well and are too selfish to be volunteers or too moronic to just go to school and better themselves, or stay home and enjoy hobbies. the employer is not far from where they work, they've developed a social clique in the workplace and they've convinced themselves they like it. farking dooshbags. when you've identified these arseholes where you work be sure to thank them for being selfish.
 
2013-01-06 11:47:29 PM
delaney55.files.wordpress.com

So I meet all the qualifications - when can I start?
 
2013-01-06 11:49:25 PM

zedster: Baby Boomers: I'd like what my parents had
Business: nope you'll have a 401K that we will raid and no job security


I have to take exception to this. A pension is an IOU that assumes your employer will still be there in 50 or 60 years. A company can underfund a pension. A company can raid a pension. A company can declare bankruptcy and the pension fund is screwed as are all retirees depending on it.

A 401-K is owned and (at least partially) managed by the employee. A 401-K is a retirement savings account that is owned by you the employee personally. The only negative thing a company can do to your 401K is to stop making a matching contribution.

401-K > pension in all ways.
 
2013-01-06 11:51:30 PM

lousyskater: Glad my job interview was more technical questions that actually pertained to the position I was applying for and not bullshiat social ones. Feels good working a job where my ability to fix stuff is more important than what I did over the weekend.


This. My interview at IBM was being sat down at the lab with a machine and the two trainers and being told to make it work. Right there on the spot.

Out of the 20 or so people that applied, I was the only one that did it that quickly?

Wow.
 
2013-01-06 11:52:22 PM

strife: Lsherm: Turns out for years the Indian students and the Pakistani students had been swapping out the tech crew jobs because they refused to work with one another.

Seems legit. IIRC, they had a thing for threatening each other with nuclear warfare not too long ago.


This was years before either of them had nuclear weapons.  They haven't like each other for a long time.
 
2013-01-06 11:57:16 PM

Mr. Eugenides: zedster: Baby Boomers: I'd like what my parents had
Business: nope you'll have a 401K that we will raid and no job security

I have to take exception to this. A pension is an IOU that assumes your employer will still be there in 50 or 60 years. A company can underfund a pension. A company can raid a pension. A company can declare bankruptcy and the pension fund is screwed as are all retirees depending on it.

A 401-K is owned and (at least partially) managed by the employee. A 401-K is a retirement savings account that is owned by you the employee personally. The only negative thing a company can do to your 401K is to stop making a matching contribution.

401-K > pension in all ways.


Because it's defined-benefit rather than defined-contribution, a pension is far superior to some crappy 401(k). Also, California now offers a state-run private sector pension. Years from now, other states will, too.
 
2013-01-06 11:57:18 PM
Hiring an employee without regards to how they will fit in the company's culture is like buying a piece of awesome furniture with no regards to how (or if) it will fit in your house.

Happy employees = productive employees. It is as simple as that. Having a work environment they actually enjoy being in with people they can get along with and work well with is the best way to have happy employees. Hiring someone who disrupts that environment is just bad business logic. No matter how talented and qualified they are, no one employee is worth dragging down the productivity of the rest of the team.
 
2013-01-06 11:57:51 PM
If you hate the interview, you'd probably hate working there, so consider yourself saved from a big mistake.
 
2013-01-07 12:00:36 AM

Atomic Spunk: AloysiusSnuffleupagus:
I have a job, asshole.

Hey, good for you! I guess it's not a job where you would be expected to know what the phrase "Between two equally qualified candidates..." means.


Gee, thanks. I'm glad you've decided for me what the most important part of the argument is.

Because we know that employers are always faced with that very tough binary decision:

"Which of these equally qualified applicants should I hire-- the one who is a social retard (apparently like me?), or the other who is the epitome of social graces (you, obviously)."

Thanks for directing my attention to this important deficiency in my rhetoric. I appreciate your input and look forward to future opportunities for you to educate me.
 
2013-01-07 12:02:57 AM

Mr. Eugenides: zedster: Baby Boomers: I'd like what my parents had
Business: nope you'll have a 401K that we will raid and no job security

I have to take exception to this. A pension is an IOU that assumes your employer will still be there in 50 or 60 years. A company can underfund a pension. A company can raid a pension. A company can declare bankruptcy and the pension fund is screwed as are all retirees depending on it.

A 401-K is owned and (at least partially) managed by the employee. A 401-K is a retirement savings account that is owned by you the employee personally. The only negative thing a company can do to your 401K is to stop making a matching contribution.

401-K > pension in all ways.


The company picks the plan administrator and the "investments" you are allowed to invest your money in.
 
2013-01-07 12:05:43 AM
This topic is so abstract and subjective. I mean, I can't get the interview until I pass the HR gatekeeper, but, are the HR person's Cultural fit parameters anywhere near those of the actual people *I* would work with? I'm guessing usually: "no".

Now, my son did well on his last interview. His supervisor asked a few random questions, and the kid, who is 18, quoted appropriately in context from Musashi's Book of Five Rings. Since the supervisor was a martial arts nut in his spare time, this landed my kid the job. I can guarantee you in this town, my kid is the only one aged 18 to 28, to have read Musashi.

I haven't had to interview in years, but one time I did, the HR person asked me at the end of the interview what questions I had for her. I asked her what her evaluation of the company's corporate culture was. She just sighed, and didn't answer. What I was trying to get was a sense of if they were conservative or progressive. I didn't get the job, don't know of she thought my question impertinent, or if she knew the culture was asinine, and was sighing because she was trapped in it, and she saved me some grief by not hiring me.

I'm glad I'm nearing retirement age and might not ever have to go thru HR bullshiat again. I'm sure there are a few exceptions, but overall I have found HR people to be generally terrible. I can't say if they started out okay and the job makes them bad, or if they are already bad and attracted to that work. I have to work with an inordinate number of patronage hacks on a daily basis, and that might be coloring my opinions.
 
2013-01-07 12:08:37 AM

The Stealth Hippopotamus: First question in every interview I conduct: "so, Star Was or Star Trek?"

First it show me how the person reacts to a curve ball if the candidate is off guard and nervous that's bad if it gets them to relax that's good. If they get off guard by such a simple question than they'll never make it in shipping. The truckers will get you alive. Second it keeps all the damn Trekkers away from me.

The last girl I hired answered "Firefly". Best filing clerk we got.


subspacecomms.com
 
2013-01-07 12:08:51 AM

shoegaze99: Asinine tag is asinine. When I've been in charge of hiring, you'd better believe that "cultural fit" (I didn't use stupid terms like that) was just as important as skill set. I'd take someone with slightly less skills but who would be a great fit for our team and my management style than someone with great skills who wouldn't be right for our workplace. If a person fits well with the rest of the staff and is someone you feel good about working with/managing, that a huge plus over someone who will be an outcast on your staff or who you'll hate working with. You can teach them, they'll have the support of their colleagues, the whole team will function better as a team, the new employee will be happier (and thus more productive and receptive to learning), and so on.

So yeah, your skills aren't the only thing that matters. This is nothing new. And it just makes sense.


THIS! I just made an offer to someone for these reasons. If the person is not a team player and not teachable....then there is no way I want them under me. I do not have time for unnecessary drama or intrigue.
 
2013-01-07 12:11:54 AM
I'm not sure why people are surprised by any of this. This isn't some pie-in-the-sky thing where the team is looking to discriminate or looking for a new drinking buddy. They're looking for somebody who is going to stick around. Replacing people is expensive and they don't want to waste their time hiring you and training you if you're going to be miserable, quit the job in six months and they'll be back at square one.

50 years ago they did that with a pension, which reward people for staying in one place. Since that doesn't exist anymore, they try to filter out people who they think will be miserable in their job.

Even if you have all the technical skills for the job, its not worth bringing you on if they know you'll be miserable and leave. So yeah, they try to get a gauge of whether you'll fit in and actually like your coworkers/job.
 
2013-01-07 12:12:10 AM

HempHead: Mr. Eugenides: zedster: Baby Boomers: I'd like what my parents had
Business: nope you'll have a 401K that we will raid and no job security

I have to take exception to this. A pension is an IOU that assumes your employer will still be there in 50 or 60 years. A company can underfund a pension. A company can raid a pension. A company can declare bankruptcy and the pension fund is screwed as are all retirees depending on it.

A 401-K is owned and (at least partially) managed by the employee. A 401-K is a retirement savings account that is owned by you the employee personally. The only negative thing a company can do to your 401K is to stop making a matching contribution.

401-K > pension in all ways.

The company picks the plan administrator and the "investments" you are allowed to invest your money in.


In what world is that worse than having the company choose the investments and control the money in such a way that you could lose it all? Yes, you have limited choices in a 401-K (i mentioned that) but I've never seen one that only had one choice. Most have dozens of options, in fact more options that a lot of people are prepared for. But if someone picks a fund for their 401-K investment and puts all their money in that fund it's their own choice.

And no, you don't get to invest in individual stocks in a 401-K because that's about the stupidest thing you could do. If you want to gamble in the stock market, do it with money that's not set aside for retirement.
 
2013-01-07 12:15:11 AM

brigid_fitch: how many inches in a yard


That would make me pause for a few seconds while I remembered how many inches were in a foot (12, so 36 inches in a yard), because I really, really do not use the imperial system very often.
 
2013-01-07 12:18:26 AM

coldf33t: shoegaze99: Asinine tag is asinine. When I've been in charge of hiring, you'd better believe that "cultural fit" (I didn't use stupid terms like that) was just as important as skill set. I'd take someone with slightly less skills but who would be a great fit for our team and my management style than someone with great skills who wouldn't be right for our workplace. If a person fits well with the rest of the staff and is someone you feel good about working with/managing, that a huge plus over someone who will be an outcast on your staff or who you'll hate working with. You can teach them, they'll have the support of their colleagues, the whole team will function better as a team, the new employee will be happier (and thus more productive and receptive to learning), and so on.

So yeah, your skills aren't the only thing that matters. This is nothing new. And it just makes sense.

THIS! I just made an offer to someone for these reasons. If the person is not a team player and not teachable....then there is no way I want them under me. I do not have time for unnecessary drama or intrigue.


Ahh, so shoegaze99, in other words if someone is good at stroking your ego you'd much rather have them than someone who is actually capable but might be a threat to you? Hmm, sounds about right.
 
2013-01-07 12:18:34 AM
Also, as someone who has to do a lot of hiring, yes there is a reason behind bullshiat questions. Such as:

Seeing how well you think on your feet. Sure, they could just ask you if you think well on your feet, but as we have established already, a lot of people just say what they think the employer wants to hear. Random, unexpected questions catch people off-guard and test how well they really think under pressure. Actually test some of those skills they claim to be so good at.

Adaptability. Throwing out a question that has nothing to do with your skills or relevance to the job is a great way to see how well someone can adapt when the obvious path disappears. Give them a chance to work outside the checklist of basic on-the-nose "Can you code in Java" type questions. Can someone take a "pointless" question and use it to make themselves come off as even more relevant to the job?

Tolerance to Bullshiat questions. If your job has ANYTHING to do with customer service, you will have to deal with bullshiat questions all the time. If you show no tolerance for having to deal with small talk and irrelevant topics, you are effectively saying you are not qualified for the job.

Interviewers are actually a lot smarter than people give them credit for. Whenever someone throws a seemingly dumb question at you, take the time to realize that your actual answer to that question is probably not what they are looking for from your response.
 
2013-01-07 12:18:42 AM
coldf33t:  If the person is not a team player and not teachable

This is what I love and find ridiculous about these threads.  "Team player" and "teachable" are two different things, and they are both different from "cultural fit".

It's as if all of human behavior is a dichotomy between technical stuff and non-technical stuff, and there are no further divisions.  So if someone argues that "cultural fit" isn't important for a job, then a bunch of howler will be all like, "No, I never hire anyone unless they show me they can communicate well with their peers."  Yeah, I wasn't talking about communication skills, I was talking about cultural fit.

Poor cultural fit is a stupid reason not to hire someone talented.  Poor communication skills is a good reason not to, but heaven help someone trying to argue there's a difference.
 
2013-01-07 12:20:38 AM

New: "You're just not a cultural fit for us"

Which is just code for "we don't want you for being a [protected class], but we can't say it".

---

CmndrFish: You're thinking of at will employment, not right to work. Right to work is where you don't have to pay union dues if you don't want to. At will employment is when the employer can fire you at any time for any reason, as long as it doesn't violate the various Civil Rights Acts. Pretty much everybody outside of a union or CBA has at will employment in the US.


While aside from the ALEC ramrods (Michigan, Indiana), RTW generally has encouraged/accompanied other laws that disempower workers. Now if RTW treated contract/temp/contingent workers the same as unions (read: you could choose to not be a contract worker and be a directly hired & FT one instead), RTW would be about freedom. Otherwise, it's a law that improperly defines worker freedom from the business's standpoint.


Mr. Eugenides: I have to take exception to this. A pension is an IOU that assumes your employer will still be there in 50 or 60 years. A company can underfund a pension. A company can raid a pension. A company can declare bankruptcy and the pension fund is screwed as are all retirees depending on it.

A 401-K is owned and (at least partially) managed by the employee. A 401-K is a retirement savings account that is owned by you the employee personally. The only negative thing a company can do to your 401K is to stop making a matching contribution.


Pension > 401k due to excessive market instability. Now if you want to really make it better, protect the pensions from scuttling/underfunding.
 
2013-01-07 12:24:40 AM

aerojockey: coldf33t:  If the person is not a team player and not teachable

This is what I love and find ridiculous about these threads.  "Team player" and "teachable" are two different things, and they are both different from "cultural fit".

It's as if all of human behavior is a dichotomy between technical stuff and non-technical stuff, and there are no further divisions.  So if someone argues that "cultural fit" isn't important for a job, then a bunch of howler will be all like, "No, I never hire anyone unless they show me they can communicate well with their peers."  Yeah, I wasn't talking about communication skills, I was talking about cultural fit.

Poor cultural fit is a stupid reason not to hire someone talented.  Poor communication skills is a good reason not to, but heaven help someone trying to argue there's a difference.


It'll be fun to see the defense attorney trying to quantify "cultural fit". "Yes, Mr. Smith is more qualified than the person we hired. But we chose not to hire Mr. Smith because all his heros are real people instead of action figures, and two of his favorite restaurants serve sushi. Nobody in accounting likes sushi."
 
2013-01-07 12:26:21 AM
People who support "cultural fit" are petty and the practice is, in reality, just a culture of cliques and ego driven. Nothing more.
 
2013-01-07 12:27:09 AM

whatshisname: What's asinine about it? Fitting into a workplace is just as important as skills.


It is possible to fit in to the workplace culture without likeing the same farking movies a nd TV shows. So why are they asking questions about this? The key issue is whether the applicant will be a good fit with the workplace culture. How does my favorite movie relate to that question at all?
 
2013-01-07 12:29:00 AM
Self employed here. I'm at a point where I don't want to play these games. My last job and the four job interviews I had before deciding to go self employed and quitting my last job proved to me that at the end of the day, HR is calling the shots in the company, unless it's a very small company and the HR department is one person no one likes. If there is a new trend that is popular with HR people, it's going to effect you eventually. Don't be surprised is the next step is cultural retro fitting the work place. "Yeah, we know you've been here for nine years with no complaints against you, but since you're the only male in your department and the only white guy in a department full of latina women, you're just not the perfect cultural fit we need here."

I did learn in my last job that there are HR magazines and national conventions. If enough companies start doing it, others will follow. Doesn't matter if it's a good idea or not. If I ran a company and I discovered my HR department was passing over the best people because they didn't think that they were a good fit for the company, then the hiring staff would be looking for new jobs while the new ones would be told "Pass over the best candidate because they aren't a good cultural fit and you'll be applying for unemployment."
 
2013-01-07 12:33:03 AM

aerojockey: Poor cultural fit is a stupid reason not to hire someone talented.  Poor communication skills is a good reason not to, but heaven help someone trying to argue there's a difference.


I can argue against that.

I work in a place with a very laid-back and playful environment. We have things like Nerf guns and employee's dogs hanging around the office. Everyone is down with this culture and as such, they all manage to be very productive despite what some might refer to as distractions around the office. Recently we were looking to higher another programmer. We came across someone who was very talented in his field and had a lot of the knowledge and skills we wanted. But he made it very clear during the interview that he cannot stand idle chatter/frivolous activity in the work place and prefers a much more "traditional" business environment. While there is certainly nothing wrong about that, but it would have been a horrible fit for the company. He would have been miserable and he would be making the rest of the team miserable. And productivity would have tanked, not to mention the level of customer service.

This is not "communication problems" or "teach-ability", this is simply cultural fit, and paying proper attention to it probably saved our company a lot of time and money .
 
2013-01-07 12:38:43 AM

Mr. Eugenides: HempHead: Mr. Eugenides: zedster: Baby Boomers: I'd like what my parents had
Business: nope you'll have a 401K that we will raid and no job security

I have to take exception to this. A pension is an IOU that assumes your employer will still be there in 50 or 60 years. A company can underfund a pension. A company can raid a pension. A company can declare bankruptcy and the pension fund is screwed as are all retirees depending on it.

A 401-K is owned and (at least partially) managed by the employee. A 401-K is a retirement savings account that is owned by you the employee personally. The only negative thing a company can do to your 401K is to stop making a matching contribution.

401-K > pension in all ways.

The company picks the plan administrator and the "investments" you are allowed to invest your money in.

In what world is that worse than having the company choose the investments and control the money in such a way that you could lose it all? Yes, you have limited choices in a 401-K (i mentioned that) but I've never seen one that only had one choice. Most have dozens of options, in fact more options that a lot of people are prepared for. But if someone picks a fund for their 401-K investment and puts all their money in that fund it's their own choice.

And no, you don't get to invest in individual stocks in a 401-K because that's about the stupidest thing you could do. If you want to gamble in the stock market, do it with money that's not set aside for retirement.


My last company allowed user directed investments, which was pretty nice.

My current company restricts investments to funds with the highest fees in the industry. I have no doubt that the company (or someone high up) gets a kick back from the fees.
 
2013-01-07 12:45:36 AM

aerojockey: coldf33t:  If the person is not a team player and not teachable

This is what I love and find ridiculous about these threads.  "Team player" and "teachable" are two different things, and they are both different from "cultural fit".

It's as if all of human behavior is a dichotomy between technical stuff and non-technical stuff, and there are no further divisions.  So if someone argues that "cultural fit" isn't important for a job, then a bunch of howler will be all like, "No, I never hire anyone unless they show me they can communicate well with their peers."  Yeah, I wasn't talking about communication skills, I was talking about cultural fit.

Poor cultural fit is a stupid reason not to hire someone talented.  Poor communication skills is a good reason not to, but heaven help someone trying to argue there's a difference.


Give me two candidates with the same technical skill set and I am going to hire the one that is the most fitting for my team. Granted, these are people that made it past HR ( I know nothing about that aspect of it except I gave a salary and experience range to the recruiter).
 
2013-01-07 12:46:07 AM

badhatharry: Sorry, you didn't get the job. Yes, you are qualified but you are a boring asshole.


OK, suppose I'm NOT an asshole ... but I AM boring, but I DO like paychecks and therefore I WILL show up on time and put in a full and honest day of work, week in and week out, for whichever employer I've chosen to offer those services to. NOW do I get the job?
 
2013-01-07 12:47:55 AM
I am convinced my employer likes me around not for my skills, but because I laugh easily and make some good one-liners.

No email funnies though. That's a no-no.
 
2013-01-07 12:52:47 AM

Cryokenetic: aerojockey: Poor cultural fit is a stupid reason not to hire someone talented.  Poor communication skills is a good reason not to, but heaven help someone trying to argue there's a difference.

I can argue against that.

I work in a place with a very laid-back and playful environment. We have things like Nerf guns and employee's dogs hanging around the office. Everyone is down with this culture and as such, they all manage to be very productive despite what some might refer to as distractions around the office. Recently we were looking to higher another programmer. We came across someone who was very talented in his field and had a lot of the knowledge and skills we wanted. But he made it very clear during the interview that he cannot stand idle chatter/frivolous activity in the work place and prefers a much more "traditional" business environment. While there is certainly nothing wrong about that, but it would have been a horrible fit for the company. He would have been miserable and he would be making the rest of the team miserable. And productivity would have tanked, not to mention the level of customer service.

This is not "communication problems" or "teach-ability", this is simply cultural fit, and paying proper attention to it probably saved our company a lot of time and money .


Now, see, this is a reasonable concern and one that I, if I were ever an employer, would look into. So this is probably a total 180 from what most of humankind does with it. :p
 
2013-01-07 12:53:18 AM
There's "fitting into the workplace culture", and then there's "hiring people to be your friends instead of to get the job done." About half the anecdotes in TFA fall on the wrong side of that line IMO.
 
2013-01-07 12:54:09 AM

FormlessOne: xsarien: BokerBill: What's your favorite movie? What's your favorite website? What's the last book you read for fun? What makes you uncomfortable?

- None of your business
- None of your business
- None of your business
- A rock in my shoe

/Not a good cultural fit with any company that thinks these are important questions to ask in a job interview.

Do you give douchy answers to those questions when they're asked in a casual setting? Because what's being measured here is your ability to have a normal conversation that doesn't involve "talking shop."

It's a little jarring and their purpose is pretty transparent these days, but they can also serve as a bit of an ice breaker in a normally tense situation, like, say, a job interview.

On the other hand, discovering the folks carrying the "YER NOT THE BOSS A' ME!" chip on their shoulders in four questions or less makes a job interview go that much faster.


A job interview is not a casual conversation: that's really the point here. This is not about "yer not the boss of me"; it's about what's appropriate and professional in the context of a job interview. If you really want to know what book I last read for fun - rather than for professional development - I might reasonably wonder if you ever hire anyone who isn't your personal friend.

On the other hand, on the job you are emphatically the boss of me. And it's still none of your business.
Like I said, if you think it's important what my favorite movie is - important enough to base a hiring decision on the answer, then it really doesn't matter whether we agree on favorite movies: I don't fit with your organization.
And I can decide that in four questions or less, too.
 
2013-01-07 12:57:39 AM

zedster: WWII Gen: Hey I'll get a job and work at it for 20+ yrs, return you'll give me benefits like a pension
WWI Gen: Okay

Baby Boomers: I don't care about a pension, but I want job satisfaction with enough money to own a house and stuff.
WWII Gen
: Got it.


Generation X: I don't care about money or a long-term career, I just want to be a free spirit with my friends like my hippie parents.
Aging Hippies Now Gone Corporate: nope, you'll be selling your soul for a cubicle, but you can have all these stock options.

Echoboomers: I get that there's no money or job satisfaction, I just want a steady career that leaves me time for hobbies and raising the family my workoholic Baby Boomer parents didn't have time for.
Baby Boomers: nope you'll work 60 to 80 hours a week for less than we made at that age, and we're raiding social security
so you can never retire.


Millennials: If I'm not going to be making great money and have no job security I'd rather work someplace I like and move on when I burn out, like my flaky Generation X parents wanted to.
Generation X: Why do you have no loyalty? come back?


This thread is really tl;dr by this point, but I wanted to help make that more specific.
 
2013-01-07 12:59:46 AM
God help the introverts. It probably takes me about a month to really feel comfortable and start cracking jokes in a new work environment, unless someone makes it their buisiness to shorten that warm-up period.

In that time, though, the office will be spotless, I'll have fixed at least three lingering issues, and have brought cookies twice. Don't look over the quiet ones.
 
2013-01-07 01:01:08 AM

BokerBill: FormlessOne: xsarien: BokerBill: What's your favorite movie? What's your favorite website? What's the last book you read for fun? What makes you uncomfortable?

- None of your business
- None of your business
- None of your business
- A rock in my shoe

/Not a good cultural fit with any company that thinks these are important questions to ask in a job interview.

Do you give douchy answers to those questions when they're asked in a casual setting? Because what's being measured here is your ability to have a normal conversation that doesn't involve "talking shop."

It's a little jarring and their purpose is pretty transparent these days, but they can also serve as a bit of an ice breaker in a normally tense situation, like, say, a job interview.

On the other hand, discovering the folks carrying the "YER NOT THE BOSS A' ME!" chip on their shoulders in four questions or less makes a job interview go that much faster.

A job interview is not a casual conversation: that's really the point here. This is not about "yer not the boss of me"; it's about what's appropriate and professional in the context of a job interview. If you really want to know what book I last read for fun - rather than for professional development - I might reasonably wonder if you ever hire anyone who isn't your personal friend.

On the other hand, on the job you are emphatically the boss of me. And it's still none of your business.
Like I said, if you think it's important what my favorite movie is - important enough to base a hiring decision on the answer, then it really doesn't matter whether we agree on favorite movies: I don't fit with your organization.
And I can decide that in four questions or less, too.


Amen, brother Bill.
 
2013-01-07 01:01:33 AM

balisane: God help the introverts. It probably takes me about a month to really feel comfortable and start cracking jokes in a new work environment, unless someone makes it their buisiness to shorten that warm-up period.

In that time, though, the office will be spotless, I'll have fixed at least three lingering issues, and have brought cookies twice. Don't look over the quiet ones.


Who says the "quiet ones" aren't a cultural fit?
 
2013-01-07 01:02:43 AM

balisane: God help the introverts. It probably takes me about a month to really feel comfortable and start cracking jokes in a new work environment, unless someone makes it their buisiness to shorten that warm-up period.

In that time, though, the office will be spotless, I'll have fixed at least three lingering issues, and have brought cookies twice. Don't look over the quiet ones.


Again spot-on. But introverts don't interview well, right?
 
2013-01-07 01:04:00 AM

stiletto_the_wise: "Cultural Fit" is merely a way to disqualify an otherwise qualified candidate without having to disqualify them for one of those illegal reasons.


Yep. Turns out you give an answer to the question "Do you like working on Saturday?" with "Well, after I get back from Synagogue in the morning, it's a nice change of pace." means I have become "culturally unfit" for the job.

/second post nailed it too
//Employee loyalty goes way down when the employer expects maximum productivity for the bare minimum in wages and/or no expectation of longevity, nor raises in earnings
 
2013-01-07 01:04:40 AM
I'm not a good culture fit. I don't like *people*, as a general rule. I really don't like my co-workers. I enjoy tasks that are similar to my job; but I don't really want to do my job. I get paid a 'fair wage' but that limits me to only put in a 'fair amount' of effort. I don't bust my ass for the good of the company, I do just enough to get 'good' reviews - nothing more. And the entire time, I have one foot out the door waiting for anything better to come along.

But I'm REALLY GOOD at interviews.

It's strange. I've had a lot of similar situations growing up. When I'm 'on' I can act a certain way - for example - high school debate or theater or being the class clown; but take that away and even though I appear outgoing and social, I just like *attention*, not the people that give it. Once I'm not 'on', I really don't care. I'm not friendly. I don't want to hear about your wife or your kids or your husband or your funny story or anything else. Meh. I just want to dick around for five hours, take a long lunch, and go home.

But put me in an interview - and bam - I'm Mr. Popular! Mr. Good Culture fit. Friendly, funny, knowledgeable...I don't know or plan what I'll say before I show up - but I'm really good at picking up on what they want me to say. Maybe, with some training, I could be some sort of cold-reading psychic...I don't know. One interview I find myself saying how work-life balance is important and how working at a big, faceless insurance company just wasn't for me; that I wanted to 'make a difference'. Got that job. Next interview I'm saying that I just wasn't challenged enough, that I was tired of doing a good job, I wanted to do a great job! I wanted to push myself and see just how far and how good I can become. Even the lunch-interview with co-workers....I could go 10 years without having lunch with a co-worker or asking them a question or caring about an answer; but when I'm on my job interview and we go out to lunch, bam, I can pretend to care. You like that sport? Oh yeah - me too! Why, I even used to play in high school. You guys are all nerds and have level 60 toons on WoW (this was years back when 60 was the cap) oh man! I love that game, let me tell you about my bot wrote! Yeah it *IS* awesome. You guys can't stand slackers who talk about WoW all day? Oh man, me neither. I had some coworkers and all they'd do is talk about stupid computer games. I mean seriously......

Whatever. All complete bullshiat. I want to do the minimum amount of work for the maximum amount of pay. I don't care what I work on. I don't care what the company does or makes or if it exploits 3rd world labor or donates profits to 3rd world countries - I just want my damn check. I'm currently in the banking/finance sector, so that's a more acceptable attitude, but I'd say it even if it weren't true in situations where I think people want to hear it.

But it's a GREAT feeling when someone tells you that you are overpaid for your work history, but offers you your asking salary. Or when they say, 'You don't quite have the qualifications we're looking for; but we are going to take a chance on you, because your a great fit for this role'.

I don't know what a better system would be, but putting a lot of value in someone's interview skills will get you candidates who are good at interviews - not good at work. If you put a value in cultural fit, you'll get people who can pretend to be likable during the interview/hiring phase.

I'm seven for seven in job interviews. If I can make it to the interview, I've gotten an offer 100% of the time. And I'm just some crappy slacker. I've got buddies from college who are twice the employee that I am, who interview poorly, who would be a MUCH BETTER choice than I - but companies are happy enough to hire a-holes like me.
 
2013-01-07 01:09:39 AM

coldf33t: balisane: God help the introverts. It probably takes me about a month to really feel comfortable and start cracking jokes in a new work environment, unless someone makes it their buisiness to shorten that warm-up period.

In that time, though, the office will be spotless, I'll have fixed at least three lingering issues, and have brought cookies twice. Don't look over the quiet ones.

Who says the "quiet ones" aren't a cultural fit?


Because the whole interviewing process is designed to make extroverted people loook good. And there is a tremendous bias against introverts that people are attempting to justify by this "cultural fit" nonsense.

Extroverted people don't recognize (and frankly don't seem to care about) this fact. As they are the people who are (usually) making the hiring decisions in the first place.
 
2013-01-07 01:10:25 AM

AloysiusSnuffleupagus: balisane: God help the introverts. It probably takes me about a month to really feel comfortable and start cracking jokes in a new work environment, unless someone makes it their buisiness to shorten that warm-up period.

In that time, though, the office will be spotless, I'll have fixed at least three lingering issues, and have brought cookies twice. Don't look over the quiet ones.

Again spot-on. But introverts don't interview well, right?


Not at all. Personally, I'm better at it than I used to be and have learned some of the tricks, but it's never going to be an asset.

Quiet ones may be a good fit, but they're more difficult to immediately assess than extroverts. A hiring manager has their own job to do, and it's quite natural for them to prefer the people whom they can judge most easily and get on with their day.
 
2013-01-07 01:12:05 AM

spamdog: I am convinced my employer likes me around not for my skills, but because I laugh easily and make some good one-liners.

No email funnies though. That's a no-no.


Add a large full pair of breasts and you'll be unstoppable.

Yes it's sexist and I'm sorry.
 
2013-01-07 01:15:02 AM

lumyai: It is possible to fit in to the workplace culture without likeing the same farking movies a nd TV shows.


I'm the only geek in my office, but my management likes my work, and even asks me for reviews of the latest movies and all. They're not into the same kind of thing, but I've steered them to some of the more generally interesting films. Also it's a yearly event when I get back from Dragon*Con and everyone wants to see pictures.
I'm in logistics, and do catch a lot of flak daily, but then hear from other divisions that they get compared to me on a regular basis on roughly a "Boojum can save more miles than this IN A CAVE! WITH A BOX OF SCRAPS!" level, so I have job security.

/I've told management before if they want to hire someone who can properly cover for me, first question should be "Do you play Tetris?"
//Anyone better than me is already someplace else making bigger bucks anyway
 
2013-01-07 01:20:16 AM

BokerBill: FormlessOne: xsarien: BokerBill: What's your favorite movie? What's your favorite website? What's the last book you read for fun? What makes you uncomfortable?

- None of your business
- None of your business
- None of your business
- A rock in my shoe

/Not a good cultural fit with any company that thinks these are important questions to ask in a job interview.

Do you give douchy answers to those questions when they're asked in a casual setting? Because what's being measured here is your ability to have a normal conversation that doesn't involve "talking shop."

It's a little jarring and their purpose is pretty transparent these days, but they can also serve as a bit of an ice breaker in a normally tense situation, like, say, a job interview.

On the other hand, discovering the folks carrying the "YER NOT THE BOSS A' ME!" chip on their shoulders in four questions or less makes a job interview go that much faster.

A job interview is not a casual conversation: that's really the point here. This is not about "yer not the boss of me"; it's about what's appropriate and professional in the context of a job interview. If you really want to know what book I last read for fun - rather than for professional development - I might reasonably wonder if you ever hire anyone who isn't your personal friend.

On the other hand, on the job you are emphatically the boss of me. And it's still none of your business.
Like I said, if you think it's important what my favorite movie is - important enough to base a hiring decision on the answer, then it really doesn't matter whether we agree on favorite movies: I don't fit with your organization.
And I can decide that in four questions or less, too.


You sound like a blast to work with. No, really. I can't wait to work on a project with the guy who will give me the stink eye if I casually ask something as benign as "What did you think of 'The Hobbit?'"
 
2013-01-07 01:22:32 AM
Where do you see yourself in five years?
 
2013-01-07 01:23:28 AM

DarkSoulNoHope: stiletto_the_wise: "Cultural Fit" is merely a way to disqualify an otherwise qualified candidate without having to disqualify them for one of those illegal reasons.

Yep. Turns out you give an answer to the question "Do you like working on Saturday?" with "Well, after I get back from Synagogue in the morning, it's a nice change of pace." means I have become "culturally unfit" for the job.

/second post nailed it too
//Employee loyalty goes way down when the employer expects maximum productivity for the bare minimum in wages and/or no expectation of longevity, nor raises in earnings


Yeah, the Jews have it so hard in the business world. Hardly any of 'em doing well.
 
2013-01-07 01:24:17 AM
I just recently had the "cultural fit is/isn't BS" discussion with some folks I know at various places. One proponent of the "is BS" side made the point that it is all too easy to go from "hiring people who work well together" to "hiring people who work the same" to "hiring people who are the same" (including the more illegal manifestations of that). Which I agree is bad, especially as nobody "fits" 100% on day 1, ever, anywhere.

But I've had personal experience of the other side of it -- the employee who is highly qualified, obviously can do the work, but for whatever reason (sometimes a "soft skills" failing, sometimes just being radically at variance with the others in some way) nobody at the office can stand them. About two out of every three places I've worked has had one. The worst cases are when a new team has accreted around the remnants of an old one (sometimes a single holdover from the "old days"), developed its own new culture, and it's actually the longest-serving employees who no longer "fit".

Somehow you have to strike that happy medium between Dudebro Island and Prima Donna Central, where you have employees with differences and even the occasional argument but it doesn't turn into entrenched dislike. It helps if you're careful about hiring truly skilled employees and quickly correcting mistakes, because then everybody can start from the assumption that the other person isn't just disagreeing because they're incompetent.
 
2013-01-07 01:30:07 AM

Electriclectic: Where do you see yourself in five years?


Oh you know....piloting my own personal killbot mech through the city streets, strafing the mall with my machine-gun arms, and laughing maniacally as the people run screaming trying to avoid the stamping of my mecha-boots.

Why do you ask?
 
2013-01-07 01:30:38 AM
AloysiusSnuffleupagus: coldf33t: balisane: God help the introverts. It probably takes me about a month to really feel comfortable and start cracking jokes in a new work environment, unless someone makes it their buisiness to shorten that warm-up period.

In that time, though, the office will be spotless, I'll have fixed at least three lingering issues, and have brought cookies twice. Don't look over the quiet ones.

Who says the "quiet ones" aren't a cultural fit?

Because the whole interviewing process is designed to make extroverted people loook good. And there is a tremendous bias against introverts that people are attempting to justify by this "cultural fit" nonsense.

Extroverted people don't recognize (and frankly don't seem to care about) this fact. As they are the people who are (usually) making the hiring decisions in the first placeAloysiusSnuffleupagus: coldf33t: balisane: God help the introverts. It probably takes me about a month to really feel comfortable and start cracking jokes in a new work environment, unless someone makes it their buisiness to shorten that warm-up period.

In that time, though, the office will be spotless, I'll have fixed at least three lingering issues, and have brought cookies twice. Don't look over the quiet ones.

Who says the "quiet ones" aren't a cultural fit?

Because the whole interviewing process is designed to make extroverted people loook good. And there is a tremendous bias against introverts that people are attempting to justify by this "cultural fit" nonsense.

Extroverted people don't recognize (and frankly don't seem to care about) this fact. As they are the people who are (usually) making the hiring decisions in the first place.


I am not an extrovert but I make the hiring decisions. Interviewing candidates for a new position is my least favorite thing to do. So, again... I will say: I look for a good fit for my team. I need someone that has everyone's back and can handle constant change in addition to the baseline education and skill set required.
 
2013-01-07 01:32:07 AM

xsarien: BokerBill: FormlessOne: xsarien: BokerBill: What's your favorite movie? What's your favorite website? What's the last book you read for fun? What makes you uncomfortable?

- None of your business
- None of your business
- None of your business
- A rock in my shoe

/Not a good cultural fit with any company that thinks these are important questions to ask in a job interview.

Do you give douchy answers to those questions when they're asked in a casual setting? Because what's being measured here is your ability to have a normal conversation that doesn't involve "talking shop."

It's a little jarring and their purpose is pretty transparent these days, but they can also serve as a bit of an ice breaker in a normally tense situation, like, say, a job interview.

On the other hand, discovering the folks carrying the "YER NOT THE BOSS A' ME!" chip on their shoulders in four questions or less makes a job interview go that much faster.

A job interview is not a casual conversation: that's really the point here. This is not about "yer not the boss of me"; it's about what's appropriate and professional in the context of a job interview. If you really want to know what book I last read for fun - rather than for professional development - I might reasonably wonder if you ever hire anyone who isn't your personal friend.

On the other hand, on the job you are emphatically the boss of me. And it's still none of your business.
Like I said, if you think it's important what my favorite movie is - important enough to base a hiring decision on the answer, then it really doesn't matter whether we agree on favorite movies: I don't fit with your organization.
And I can decide that in four questions or less, too.

You sound like a blast to work with. No, really. I can't wait to work on a project with the guy who will give me the stink eye if I casually ask something as benign as "What did you think of 'The Hobbit?'"


Oh bollocks. The point is that your favorite movie is irrelevant to the conduct of your job. It's already illegal to discriminate on the basis of gender, age, race, and in some jurisdictions, sexual orientation. Why? Because they are irrelevant to the job. So how is asking these other irrelevant questions that are supposed to assess "cultural fit" any different? I'm not saying they are illegal or even necessarily should be but you are being a bit hyperbolic here.
 
2013-01-07 01:36:36 AM
Currently in the market for a job that only requires the heavy use of sarcasm, swear words, and an unfailing ability to b.s.
 
2013-01-07 01:38:23 AM
It sounds like they want a bunch of yes men, people who are going to agree with everything they say.
 
2013-01-07 01:38:43 AM

Indypendy: Currently in the market for a job that only requires the heavy use of sarcasm, swear words, and an unfailing ability to b.s.


Sales
 
2013-01-07 01:41:58 AM

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: DarkSoulNoHope: stiletto_the_wise: "Cultural Fit" is merely a way to disqualify an otherwise qualified candidate without having to disqualify them for one of those illegal reasons.

Yep. Turns out you give an answer to the question "Do you like working on Saturday?" with "Well, after I get back from Synagogue in the morning, it's a nice change of pace." means I have become "culturally unfit" for the job.

/second post nailed it too
//Employee loyalty goes way down when the employer expects maximum productivity for the bare minimum in wages and/or no expectation of longevity, nor raises in earnings

Yeah, the Jews have it so hard in the business world. Hardly any of 'em doing well.


Depends on what kind of Jew. If you're the rich Jew who has had the world handed to you on a silver platter (movie stars, business owners), then you're set for life and have nothing to worry about. On the other hand if you're a middle class or lower class Jew who is dealing with finding a new job that doesn't require Saturdays to be worked, then we're in the same boat as the rest of you. There is no Jewish cabal out there to help unemployed Jews get into well paying jobs that have flexible (to the employee, not just the employer) scheduling requirements.
 
2013-01-07 01:43:45 AM
Can someone tell me what it means when at the end of a telephone interview with a company's vice-president, he says the next step is to get me out for a site visit to their facility, and then in a few days the HR middlemen call to say the company isn't interested in me?

/I'm available immediately if you're looking for an engineer.
 
2013-01-07 01:44:05 AM

Indypendy: Currently in the market for a job that only requires the heavy use of sarcasm, swear words, and an unfailing ability to b.s.


You should try being a commenter on Fark then.
 
2013-01-07 01:44:07 AM

coldf33t: Indypendy: Currently in the market for a job that only requires the heavy use of sarcasm, swear words, and an unfailing ability to b.s.

Sales


Oddly enough, I'm horrible in sales. I'm not a born cheerleader and have a hard time talking people into buying shiat I know they don't really need or would.struggle to actually pay for.

/sold cars for one month
//sold rainbow "home cleaning systems"
///briefly sold my soul to Avon
////fark sales marketing
 
2013-01-07 01:44:55 AM

Indypendy: Currently in the market for a job that only requires the heavy use of sarcasm, swear words, and an unfailing ability to b.s.


If you include alcoholism, you are a prime candidate for virtually any sales job in the country.
 
2013-01-07 01:45:45 AM

BokerBill: A job interview is not a casual conversation: that's really the point here. This is not about "yer not the boss of me"; it's about what's appropriate and professional in the context of a job interview. If you really want to know what book I last read for fun - rather than for professional development - I might reasonably wonder if you ever hire anyone who isn't your personal friend.

On the other hand, on the job you are emphatically the boss of me. And it's still none of your business.
Like I said, if you think it's important what my favorite movie is - important enough to base a hiring decision on the answer, then it really doesn't matter whether we agree on favorite movies: I don't fit with your organization.
And I can decide that in four questions or less, too.


I work in a job that focuses heavily around customer service/tech support. I have asked similar questions to "What is your favorite movie" during interviews. In all honesty, I didn't really care about what their favorite movie was (at least in terms of the interview); I wanted to test their ability to connect with someone they never met before. Great customer service hinges heavily on being able to instantly make a connection with someone and be able to create an empathic link with them, even if you never met before. And that is something that is hard to really get from asking "professional" interview questions. You are right that interviews are not casual conversations, but they are tests and sometimes you need to think outside the box to get the real answers.

Now granted this is not the right tactic for every job and there are plenty of people out there who do ask those questions to hire people they personally like. I don't think you are totally off-base here. But I do think that immediately dismissing these kinds of questions is not seeing the forest for the trees.
 
2013-01-07 01:47:37 AM

AloysiusSnuffleupagus: Indypendy: Currently in the market for a job that only requires the heavy use of sarcasm, swear words, and an unfailing ability to b.s.

You should try being a commenter on Fark then.


Doesn't pay a decent wage. A nickel an hour to read and come up with snarky responses to all this tripe? Not this chick. I need at least a quarter.
 
2013-01-07 01:49:22 AM
The sad fact is that in most jobs, if you're interviewing without already knowing someone, you're not likely to get the job. If you're relying on the interview as your big step and nothing else, you've missed the point. Hiring, from top to bottom, doesn't work that way. Step 1 is knowing someone to refer you or who works at the company itself. If you do that step well enough, you often end up with the "Formality" interview.

Despite common appearances, HR departments are not as important as you're lead to believe, even in the largest companies. If someone above them says you're hired, you're going to be hired, barring your doing something stupid like failing a drug test.

If you want to get a better job, don't do what every other moron is doing to try to get a job -- if you do that, you're quite literally in a stack of papers containing "mostly morons."

If you get lucky and your first round of interviews or selection isn't done by HR (which is becoming rarer), then you have a chance at your interview meaning something.
 
2013-01-07 01:56:36 AM
It's been my experience that the longer, more drawn out, and more grueling the interview process is, the more likely I won't be happy there.

All those managers and engineers that are raking you over the coals, well, they each had a candidate in mind for their own groups but your hiring manager beat them out for the rec. Now they are going to prove they should have gotten the rec by showing everyone how unqualified you are and what a boob your hiring manager really is. The better you do in the interview, the more pissed off they are. Once you are in, you are never going to really be in because you are a threat and are not to be trusted.
Yay conflict!
If you find yourself in that position and you really, really need that job, at least you know what's up and can make the best of it. It's not you, it's them so leave the stress at your desk at the end of every day and keep looking!

Love my current job, they asked me to come work for them at the end of my contract and it was like putting on comfy slippers, best part, no interview!
 
2013-01-07 01:56:43 AM
What zedster said. Pay me shiat and I'll worry about my life goals or whatever. Pay me well and I'll be nice to you and worry about my life goals when I'm off the clock.
 
2013-01-07 01:57:28 AM

AloysiusSnuffleupagus: xsarien: BokerBill: FormlessOne: xsarien: BokerBill: What's your favorite movie? What's your favorite website? What's the last book you read for fun? What makes you uncomfortable?

- None of your business
- None of your business
- None of your business
- A rock in my shoe

/Not a good cultural fit with any company that thinks these are important questions to ask in a job interview.

Do you give douchy answers to those questions when they're asked in a casual setting? Because what's being measured here is your ability to have a normal conversation that doesn't involve "talking shop."

It's a little jarring and their purpose is pretty transparent these days, but they can also serve as a bit of an ice breaker in a normally tense situation, like, say, a job interview.

On the other hand, discovering the folks carrying the "YER NOT THE BOSS A' ME!" chip on their shoulders in four questions or less makes a job interview go that much faster.

A job interview is not a casual conversation: that's really the point here. This is not about "yer not the boss of me"; it's about what's appropriate and professional in the context of a job interview. If you really want to know what book I last read for fun - rather than for professional development - I might reasonably wonder if you ever hire anyone who isn't your personal friend.

On the other hand, on the job you are emphatically the boss of me. And it's still none of your business.
Like I said, if you think it's important what my favorite movie is - important enough to base a hiring decision on the answer, then it really doesn't matter whether we agree on favorite movies: I don't fit with your organization.
And I can decide that in four questions or less, too.

You sound like a blast to work with. No, really. I can't wait to work on a project with the guy who will give me the stink eye if I casually ask something as benign as "What did you think of 'The Hobbit?'"

Oh bollocks. The point is that your favorite movie is irrelevant ...


Hate the movie or love the movie. That's not the point. Questions that measure soft-skills are designed to measure whether or not I'm about to sign off on the company hiring someone no one wants to work with because they treat any socialization not related to the job as irrelevant and an annoying intrusion.

I suppose your outlook is fine if you just sit quietly in a cube all day, don't work with others, and have no goals beyond that. But in teams, personalities that mesh well produce better results than a bunch of people who are simply competent enough to get the job done.

I know it may be a shock to you, but being friends with people in the office - and in limited capacities this can include your manager - improves your morale and maybe you won't wake up every morning hating your damn job.
 
2013-01-07 01:58:54 AM

FitzShivering: The sad fact is that in most jobs, if you're interviewing without already knowing someone, you're not likely to get the job. If you're relying on the interview as your big step and nothing else, you've missed the point. Hiring, from top to bottom, doesn't work that way. Step 1 is knowing someone to refer you or who works at the company itself. If you do that step well enough, you often end up with the "Formality" interview.

Despite common appearances, HR departments are not as important as you're lead to believe, even in the largest companies. If someone above them says you're hired, you're going to be hired, barring your doing something stupid like failing a drug test.

If you want to get a better job, don't do what every other moron is doing to try to get a job -- if you do that, you're quite literally in a stack of papers containing "mostly morons."

If you get lucky and your first round of interviews or selection isn't done by HR (which is becoming rarer), then you have a chance at your interview meaning something.


I have never known anyone at a company I've been hired to. Also, I have not hired anyone that was referred to me (even by a big boss up the food chain). So far in this thread, I have only seen assumptions and generalities. Oh wait.... I just realized where I am. This is much too silly.
 
2013-01-07 02:01:17 AM

Jizz Master Zero: It's farking weird out there right now. I've never seen anything like it. I'm well qualified, over-qualified in many cases, for the jobs I've been applying for and have never had a single problem getting work before. I've always gotten accolades for my work and was well-liked everywhere I worked. What people in this thread don't seem to be understanding is that nowadays, their definition of "company culture" is less about finding someone who will get along with everyone else to help create the most productive environment possible and it's more about trying to create a clubhouse atmosphere. Ever seen the marketing or production departments at Revision3, CNET, or the like? It's more like a frat house than anything. Now I constantly lose out to kids that seem like they'd be better bar buddies than me. Three months later, the exact same job is back up because the kid couldn't handle the real work involved. I try again, get told again that I'm not a good cultural fit, they hire some kid that seems like he might be a blast to go grab some Pad Thai with, they shiatcan him two months later because he started crying the second he opened After Effects to do his first project without a template or a teacher holding his hand, wash, rinse, repeat. Thankfully I'm not the only source of income and make enough freelancing to fill the gaps. I'm about to give it one more go. If I find something, great. If not, fark it. Time to take the risk and fully strike out on my own. They want to be stuck in perpetual amateur hour because they're more concerned with finding a bestie? They're welcome to it.


Have you considered that maybe you don't fit in *because* it is time to strike out on your own?

If you know how to do the job, if you are confident in making the decisions, and if you would rather work the way that you want to work (knowing that your results will be good), then frankly you are ready to be your own boss.

It is more work (and I am struggling to get started myself-- in addition to a FT job), but I can't see how it won't be worth it.
 
2013-01-07 02:05:26 AM

Sygonus: my alt's alt's alt: i'm NOT an outgoing "people person" so when the interviewer is looking for a buddy or a fluid exchange of pointless small talk, it's game over for me. like i'd even WANT to work for a company that heralds fluffy social behavior over quality of work.

Problem is, the two aren't disconnected in a lot of jobs. What you call "fluffy social behaviour" could just as easily be called good interpersonal/collaboration skills. And the blunt fact of the matter is, those are important. I've seen firsthand the differences in quality that result from teams that really jive well together, and teams where effective collaboration is killed by a lack of cohesion or overly introverted people.

Yes, there are a lot of jobs where being introverted isn't as big a deal. But a lot of knowledge worker type positions require people who enjoy interacting with others.

The other reason employers care about "fluffy social behaviour" is that even if there's not a direct impact of said behaviour on employee collaboration, a sociable workplace often boosts employee morale and engagement, which in turn leads to higher job satisfaction and less turnover costs.


LOLOLOLOL at the bolded. As if there aren't legions of places who just for the love of god just HAVE to hurry up and get rid of that loud ME ME ME ME attention whore so everyone can get back to working in peace and often silence. I'm very much looking forward to a work-from-home, so that I can be in an environment without a bunch of loud arseholes who socialize three quarters or better of the time.


At the topic at hand, it's just the same old crap with a different label slapped on it. A small CSB - I got out of a workplace that allowed recent college grads to more or less hire their friends/cousins/roommates/friends friends/whatever, and it blew massive chunks. Little work got done, CONSTANT drama, massive turnover (went to the Christmas party the next year and half the staff was new) - it was bad news all around. Just hire the damn qualified people and tell the whiners to STFU and get back to work.
 
2013-01-07 02:05:48 AM

Satan's Dumptruck Driver: Have you considered that maybe you don't fit in *because* it is time to strike out on your own?

If you know how to do the job, if you are confident in making the decisions, and if you would rather work the way that you want to work (knowing that your results will be good), then frankly you are ready to be your own boss.


I haven't got the capital nor the borrowing power nor business knowledge needed to start my own business. There's a reason that engineering and business are in two different colleges at most universities.
 
2013-01-07 02:06:06 AM
Seems these days when I interview for a web-design/programming position I'm confronted with nothing but self-important hipsters, and it gives me a sad.
 
2013-01-07 02:07:25 AM
It always amuses me that in a recession companies flush with shiatloads of money in a way that makes them feel that they can't "afford" to hire "just anybody," it's got to be the right candidate that will satisfy the bean counters.

Corporate tyranny FTW.
 
2013-01-07 02:08:45 AM

whidbey: It always amuses me that in a recession companies flush with shiatloads of money in a way that makes them feel that they can't "afford" to hire "just anybody," it's got to be the right candidate that will satisfy the bean counters.

Corporate tyranny FTW.


FTFY.
 
2013-01-07 02:14:53 AM

Yoyo: FTFY.

www.information-facts.com
 
2013-01-07 02:18:46 AM

spamdog: I am convinced my employer likes me around not for my skills, but because I laugh easily and make some good one-liners.

No email funnies though. That's a no-no.


Humor and email seem to go together like toasters and bath water.
 
2013-01-07 02:36:58 AM

Kensey: But I've had personal experience of the other side of it -- the employee who is highly qualified, obviously can do the work, but for whatever reason (sometimes a "soft skills" failing, sometimes just being radically at variance with the others in some way) nobody at the office can stand them. About two out of every three places I've worked has had one. The worst cases are when a new team has accreted around the remnants of an old one (sometimes a single holdover from the "old days"), developed its own new culture, and it's actually the longest-serving employees who no longer "fit".


LOL, that is where I am right now.  There was an older team that worked like a well-oiled machine, and then everyone quit except me.  So the new ones came in, without any proper training, and management actually changed a ton of rules to suit them, at my expense.  I get icy stares everywhere I go at the office, right up until someone in the clique runs into a crisis that only someone with the original training can handle.  Then all of a sudden I'm their best friend right up until I've finished doing the hard part of their job
 
2013-01-07 03:04:13 AM

stiletto_the_wise: This kind of mentality is how likable frat boys get hired over people who studied hard and know their shiat. Feel lucky you don't have a "Google equivalent" in your industry to compete with.


I've only needed one asshole competent worker to realize that "cultural fit" is an extremly important condition. Being competent does not mean shiat when you manage to piss off half the persons you are supposed to collaborate with on a day-to-day basis.
 
2013-01-07 03:30:59 AM

tripleseven: Would you like to hear my Google interview story?

It's rather amusing. If a little sad.


I would be interested in hearing this
 
2013-01-07 03:39:40 AM
Just as with "social competence" this looks a lot like a good way for the HR people to just pick whoever they'll prefer to talk crap with in the break room instead of actually having to try and find out who'd do the best job. Since, you know, that'd require them to do actual work, instead of just talking crap with the applicants for half an hour.
 
2013-01-07 03:41:32 AM
I find you have to constantly reassert your role as a worker today. I like to emphasize the word worker whenever I can. I'm someone on the low-end of the totem pole, and there is this emphasis to make workers seem to the public like they are part of some movement. They call workers associates, specialists, etc., and show them smiling and happy, doing work for customers outside of their normal purview (like the ad with the Apple Genius at his customer's wife's delivery).

Inside these companies, they don't pay you well, but they have games and incentives that treat you like you're a kindergartner but that try to make you feel like your part of something. I did phone support from home for Apple, and one week the incentive was that if your team sold more AppleCare than another team, the other team's lead would have to dress up in drag and sing "I feel pretty" via webam (it was a virtual job). I would get messages from my team lead asking me if I was "pumped" about the contest.

I really had no idea what to say. If I described my feelings, they would be complex and reflect my thoughts about gender and sexuality. Culturally, I guess I was not like the other people who were able to laugh at that. Not that I am one of those politically correct people. I just don't laugh easily at stupid things. When I was in training at this virtual job, they have complete control over your computer, and during breaks they played (over my computer's speakers) this really annoying song called the "Peanut Butter Jelly Song." I never got the joke. Apparently it was funny. And people would spend their break talking with the lead about how much they liked the funny song.

But back to the contest, I was getting paid $9/hour with incredibly stressful metrics I had to meet to keep my job let alone watch some guy I didn't know sing in drag.

I just wanted to yell, "I am a worker!" I'm not whatever that person is who cares about some other person singing in drag if I sell enough AppleCare.

I was working from home, and the job was way to familiar.

I don't know that I'll ever be at the level where I am interviewing for the types of jobs described in this article, but I still resent the curiosity: where do you travel over the summers, for example, or favorite books. What if traveling to mud flats to read Mein Kampf is my thing? What does it matter?

In case you're wondering, I 1) don't travel over the summers and 2) don't read. I'm not sure if that's better or worse.

Why isn't it enough to be a worker with privacy outside of work? If they want to be voyeurs into my life outside of work, I feel like I should be charging.

/I sound like a bad cultural fit, rereading this.
 
2013-01-07 04:16:28 AM

falcon176: loyalty is dead don't give employers 2 weeks notice, they won't give you 2 hours


I've only had one job years ago that did that to me, so I guess I'm lucky. However others where I did give notice I did it on the last day of a pay period so at least a full last check was coming. Nothing like that 2 hr firing with a short pay and bills are due.
 
2013-01-07 04:31:41 AM

Indypendy: coldf33t: Indypendy: Currently in the market for a job that only requires the heavy use of sarcasm, swear words, and an unfailing ability to b.s.

Sales

Oddly enough, I'm horrible in sales. I'm not a born cheerleader and have a hard time talking people into buying shiat I know they don't really need or would.struggle to actually pay for.

/sold cars for one month
//sold rainbow "home cleaning systems"
///briefly sold my soul to Avon
////fark sales marketing


Even though you are that way you can still make hand over fist, I did that while at ATT. I was the complete anti-sales anti-company stooge but boy did I sell and boy did I sell a crap ton. I was a straight shooter with people and I played no games and my customers and their friends and family all appreciated it and I got a lot of word of mouth very quickly. I ended up with a stack of awards, national recognition and a bunch of free stuff from all "high sales" conventions/award ceremonies. I am glad I left though because ATT is were souls go to die.
 
2013-01-07 04:34:05 AM
HR people can just die..Burn in the fire pits and die.. Humans are not "Resources" to be mined like
and exploited like a vein of minerals. HR is a arbitrary construct to squeeze the life from people
through mindless regulation and policy and legalese and give back as little as possible using the
same.
 
2013-01-07 04:51:01 AM

zedster: FTFA:""These trends are being driven by millennials because they care about culture," says Dan Schawbel, author of Me: 2.0. "Research shows that millennials typically stay at a job for about two years-and they have different priorities. They'd rather have meaningful work over more pay, or work for a company that gives back or cares about the environment. They want a culture that's less hierarchical, more flexible, and more understanding of difference, because millennials are the most diverse generation."

NO NO NO NO NO NO

WWII Gen: Hey I'll get a job and work at it for 20+ yrs, return you'll give me benefits like a pension
Business: Okay

Baby Boomers: I'd like what my parents had
Business: nope you'll have a 401K that we will raid and no job security

Millennials: If I'm not going to be making great money and have no job security I'd rather work someplace I like and move on when I burn out
Business: Why do you have no loyalty? come back?

If I had the choice between culture or a place that actually took care of it's employees without screwing them over I would take the security. Having fallen into IT I have to say the contractor system is not going to inspire me to do anything less then the bare minimum, what incentive do I have? I have no profit share, no chance of getting hired on (always a false carrot they dangle), and very little security. At best Millennials are just waiting for the huge delayed wave of Baby Boomer to retire and open up the job market for them, at worst you are looking at generation that will have far less opportunity and quality of life then their parents.


THIS

/working and have worked as a contractor
 
2013-01-07 05:18:48 AM

AloysiusSnuffleupagus: Some of us are grown ups and really tire of games. Both in relationships and at work.

The last time I interviewed for a job, one place had me run the gauntlet interviewing with 10 different people (for a half hour, each) culminating with the big boss who asked me some "WTF" questions. As in, "Seriously, I have no idea what you're talking about and I'm not sure what the appropriate response is." In the back of my mind was "what was the point of that?".

I might add, I have a doctoral-level degree and the question was about being replaced by technology which doesn't exist and won't during my lifetime.

So yeah, I really tire of the stupid questions.


Don't know if this was a software interview, but I've come to view the culture of 'you must be an expert in obscure algorithms and have followed programming competitions' in order to apply for a normal derivative programming slot to be hazing more than anything.

You spend two weeks before the interview cramming and practicing for questions that don't reflect the reality of the job.
 
2013-01-07 06:07:08 AM

the_chief: God Dammit, I hate the Beatles.


Your fired!
 
2013-01-07 06:17:53 AM
FTA: They'd rather have meaningful work...

No, they'd rather have a bridge club. The phrase "meaningful work" involves, well, work.

So, what if the fact that you "don't fit" is a good thing for your company? What if your company is almost entirely populated by barely-aware, vain, self-absorbed know-nothings and the fact that you actually have and exercise capacities like logic, problem-solving skills and situational awareness enable you to do the things others can't or won't? I wouldn't be speaking from experience here, or anything...

What if stacking your staff with a bunch of people who are exactly alike gives you a whole lot of people who all share the same flaws as well?

Isn't this basic, sensible principle what the phrase "strength through diversity" means? And isn't this the lesson many of us were taught in our youth- that you're going to meet people who are different than you. Some you might get along with, and some you might not. Such is life.
 
2013-01-07 06:29:53 AM

Fark_Guy_Rob: I'm not a good culture fit. I don't like *people*, as a general rule. I really don't like my co-workers. I enjoy tasks that are similar to my job; but I don't really want to do my job. I get paid a 'fair wage' but that limits me to only put in a 'fair amount' of effort. I don't bust my ass for the good of the company, I do just enough to get 'good' reviews - nothing more. And the entire time, I have one foot out the door waiting for anything better to come along.

But I'm REALLY GOOD at interviews.

It's strange. I've had a lot of similar situations growing up. When I'm 'on' I can act a certain way - for example - high school debate or theater or being the class clown; but take that away and even though I appear outgoing and social, I just like *attention*, not the people that give it. Once I'm not 'on', I really don't care. I'm not friendly. I don't want to hear about your wife or your kids or your husband or your funny story or anything else. Meh. I just want to dick around for five hours, take a long lunch, and go home.

But put me in an interview - and bam - I'm Mr. Popular! Mr. Good Culture fit. Friendly, funny, knowledgeable...I don't know or plan what I'll say before I show up - but I'm really good at picking up on what they want me to say. Maybe, with some training, I could be some sort of cold-reading psychic...I don't know. One interview I find myself saying how work-life balance is important and how working at a big, faceless insurance company just wasn't for me; that I wanted to 'make a difference'. Got that job. Next interview I'm saying that I just wasn't challenged enough, that I was tired of doing a good job, I wanted to do a great job! I wanted to push myself and see just how far and how good I can become. Even the lunch-interview with co-workers....I could go 10 years without having lunch with a co-worker or asking them a question or caring about an answer; but when I'm on my job interview and we go out to lunch, bam, I can pre ...


This is not an uncommon occurrence. Current hiring practices filter out for one skill-the ability to interview well. That skill has little to do with an employee's long term viability at the company. Even experienced and seasoned hiring managers have a low success percentage when it comes to weeding out duds. I probably would have hired you, as I have made similar mistakes in the past. Hiring someone is like proposing marriage after two one hour dates.
 
2013-01-07 06:37:39 AM
This is what happened when "Personnel" became "Human Resources" with mostly women in charge.
 
2013-01-07 06:39:02 AM

coldf33t: Who says the "quiet ones" aren't a cultural fit?


No one. Quiet people don't say anything.
 
2013-01-07 06:42:26 AM
I wanted to fark the brains out of the last HR girl who interviewed me.

/Got the job.
//Oh yeah.
 
2013-01-07 06:44:12 AM

HotIgneous Intruder: I wanted to fark the brains out of the last HR girl who interviewed me.

/Got the job.
//Oh yeah.


www.nerve.com
 
2013-01-07 07:20:29 AM
These cookie cutter questions to determine if you are a good "cultural fit" are stupid.

Take people to lunch with the team they will be working with.

When I worked for SLB they had an interview weekend (I realize this doesn't work above entry level jobs). You could see who wasnt' really a "people person" you could see which ones chose to drink and couldn't handle their booze, and you could see who could give a good speech after having booze the day before.
 
2013-01-07 07:23:41 AM

Omnivorous: New: "You're just not a cultural fit for us"

Translation: you're older than me and have more experience, so you're a threat.


I've actually seen/heard this line a lot, and it's usually used as a B.S. reason to shaft younger employees.

/sadly, the younger employees seem to know more than the older ones at the company I'm presently contracting with
 
2013-01-07 07:25:16 AM

TheGhostofFarkPast: Indypendy: coldf33t: Indypendy: Currently in the market for a job that only requires the heavy use of sarcasm, swear words, and an unfailing ability to b.s.

Sales

Oddly enough, I'm horrible in sales. I'm not a born cheerleader and have a hard time talking people into buying shiat I know they don't really need or would.struggle to actually pay for.

/sold cars for one month
//sold rainbow "home cleaning systems"
///briefly sold my soul to Avon
////fark sales marketing

Even though you are that way you can still make hand over fist, I did that while at ATT. I was the complete anti-sales anti-company stooge but boy did I sell and boy did I sell a crap ton. I was a straight shooter with people and I played no games and my customers and their friends and family all appreciated it and I got a lot of word of mouth very quickly. I ended up with a stack of awards, national recognition and a bunch of free stuff from all "high sales" conventions/award ceremonies. I am glad I left though because ATT is were souls go to die.


That made me smile over my morning coffee.

/I never smile until the pot is empty.
 
2013-01-07 07:36:16 AM
New? We've been doing this for a long time at my job. That's why it's good place to work and we have low turnover.

I would expect that it's very common in any software-based job.
 
2013-01-07 07:37:48 AM

BokerBill: FormlessOne: xsarien: BokerBill: What's your favorite movie? What's your favorite website? What's the last book you read for fun? What makes you uncomfortable?

- None of your business
- None of your business
- None of your business
- A rock in my shoe

/Not a good cultural fit with any company that thinks these are important questions to ask in a job interview.

Do you give douchy answers to those questions when they're asked in a casual setting? Because what's being measured here is your ability to have a normal conversation that doesn't involve "talking shop."

It's a little jarring and their purpose is pretty transparent these days, but they can also serve as a bit of an ice breaker in a normally tense situation, like, say, a job interview.

On the other hand, discovering the folks carrying the "YER NOT THE BOSS A' ME!" chip on their shoulders in four questions or less makes a job interview go that much faster.

A job interview is not a casual conversation: that's really the point here. This is not about "yer not the boss of me"; it's about what's appropriate and professional in the context of a job interview. If you really want to know what book I last read for fun - rather than for professional development - I might reasonably wonder if you ever hire anyone who isn't your personal friend.

On the other hand, on the job you are emphatically the boss of me. And it's still none of your business.
Like I said, if you think it's important what my favorite movie is - important enough to base a hiring decision on the answer, then it really doesn't matter whether we agree on favorite movies: I don't fit with your organization.
And I can decide that in four questions or less, too.


And seeing if you can handle casual conversation with someone who is your boss (or potential boss or client) is appropriate.
 
2013-01-07 07:39:52 AM

swingerofbirches: I did phone support from home for Apple, and one week the incentive was that if your team sold more AppleCare than another team, the other team's lead would have to dress up in drag and sing "I feel pretty" via webam (it was a virtual job). I would get messages from my team lead asking me if I was "pumped" about the contest.


Your reply might have been, "Why would I want to see the other lead have to do that? "
 
2013-01-07 07:45:34 AM

zedster: FTFA:""These trends are being driven by millennials because they care about culture," says Dan Schawbel, author of Me: 2.0. "Research shows that millennials typically stay at a job for about two years-and they have different priorities. They'd rather have meaningful work over more pay, or work for a company that gives back or cares about the environment. They want a culture that's less hierarchical, more flexible, and more understanding of difference, because millennials are the most diverse generation."

NO NO NO NO NO NO

WWII Gen: Hey I'll get a job and work at it for 20+ yrs, return you'll give me benefits like a pension
Business: Okay

Baby Boomers: I'd like what my parents had
Business: nope you'll have a 401K that we will raid and no job security

Millennials: If I'm not going to be making great money and have no job security I'd rather work someplace I like and move on when I burn out
Business: Why do you have no loyalty? come back?

If I had the choice between culture or a place that actually took care of it's employees without screwing them over I would take the security. Having fallen into IT I have to say the contractor system is not going to inspire me to do anything less then the bare minimum, what incentive do I have? I have no profit share, no chance of getting hired on (always a false carrot they dangle), and very little security. At best Millennials are just waiting for the huge delayed wave of Baby Boomer to retire and open up the job market for them, at worst you are looking at generation that will have far less opportunity and quality of life then their parents.


Millennial here. This pretty much sums it up. I'm okay with making a little less money if it's a more rewarding job. May or may not shake out that way here, but at least there's the potential.

I don't really care about "cultural fit". I'm assuming companies define it in a very narrow way -- essentially looking for little drones to handle Yes Man roles. If I'm interviewing someone, I usually try to get someone with a bit of a different perspective than me and others in the office. It's generally worked out well, although obviously with a diverse set opinions comes the occasional confrontation. Organizations -- companies, agencies, whatever -- tend to become risk-averse and live in bubbles. Bringing in people who aren't "cultural fits" can be a nice kick in the ass for them, IMO.
 
2013-01-07 07:45:38 AM
The "cultural fit" thing goes both ways; it's the primary reason I quit my last two jobs. (First DoD, then a military subcontractor). The money was fine, but I just reached a point where I got out of bed in the mornings and could not bear the thought of willingly subjecting myself to that environment any longer.

The place I work now is much better - beer Fridays, quarterly team outings (fully funded, except alcohol), giant sharks roaming the halls, and a whole bunch of people who are damn good at their jobs. Both competence and culture figure heavily in their interview process. First, candidates are pre-screened through an online test. The ones who pass that are invited for a grueling day-long interview (by fellow team members and managers, not HR). The on-site interview begins with technical skills, including another written test, then moves on the "softer" questions mostly involving the phrase "give me an example of a time when...". The thing is, if the candidate doesn't do well on either the online or on-site technical portions, they're dismissed without even getting to the cultural part. And yes, there have been candidates who did well technically but were turned down because they weren't a "good fit".

As a result, everyone on the team is the cream of the crop, the team is tight, the work environment is both fun and serious at the same time, and the turnover rate is incredibly low for a tech company.
 
2013-01-07 07:46:51 AM

Sygonus: DiggidyDan: "what would you say your biggest weakness is?"

Blunt honesty. . . That's an inane, loaded question that you are only asking because it's on your script.

This is probably one of the most useless interview questions ever. It's so common that most people, unless they're completely clueless, will have some carefully crafted non-weakness "weakness" to respond with.


Someday, I would love to answer that question... "Giving unorthodox responses to conventional questions. It really pisses people off." And then totally leave it at that.
 
2013-01-07 08:03:23 AM

Lsherm: strife: Lsherm: Turns out for years the Indian students and the Pakistani students had been swapping out the tech crew jobs because they refused to work with one another.

Seems legit. IIRC, they had a thing for threatening each other with nuclear warfare not too long ago.

This was years before either of them had nuclear weapons.  They haven't like each other for a long time.


This is what I was thinking of, more or less.
 
2013-01-07 08:16:54 AM
We have a fairly small (16 people) creative company. We value work and really actually enjoy the process. We are 16 years old and pretty successful by most any standard and almost never have anyone leave for a better job on their own accord (2 in our history). Our hires almost always work out with three exceptions: we hire someone that one of the people who screened them had reservations about...we hire someone despite a vague red flag on their references...we hire someone unproven that we have a good feeling about. We only add one or two to our staff a year, so we really need to get things right. Culturally, we are as far apart as anyone could image, but so long as we hold a common work value, it's all good.
 
2013-01-07 08:21:18 AM
I've found the best work places are genuinely the most diverse. This means no one "cultural fit" for a company. You have curmudgeons, air heads, frat boys, nerds, dweebs, etc. all piled into one room and make it work because you're adults and can be professional even if you're not nearly identical to the person sitting next to you.

Personally, I'm one of those belligerent, unteachable, disloyal, slacking, insert degrading term, millennials. I learn quickly, I perform well. If I do get too bored or frustrated (no new, more challenging tasks, same mundane crap, micromanaging assholes, etc.), I do move on. I'm not going to sell my soul to any company and I'm very happy accepting less in life if it means less time away from my family. I learned that much from watching previous generations spend 80+ hrs a week at the office. No thanks, no how, no way. I've got other stuff to do, sorry boss.
 
2013-01-07 08:25:04 AM
i've never really had a job interview. the vast majority of my jobs were through staffing agencies, so the "interview" was little more than a formality and a chance for my supervisor to meet me beforehand and tell me what time i was supposed to be there on my first day. but even in those cases, they always asked a few personal questions just to see what kind of person i was. my answers didn't matter, they just wanted to know something about me other than my name. most of my jobs have been factory/labor jobs and i've worked at several places that would hire almost anyone who walked through the door. sometimes, all i had to do to impress my supervisor was smile politely and not come to work hung over. i remember one factory had such high turnover that they would burn through 15 or 20 new people a week during the summer when they were busy. when the company has ridiculous turnover like that, they don't even do interviews, they just tell the staffing agency to send everyone they have. thankfully, i don't work there anymore.
 
2013-01-07 08:46:04 AM
delaney55.files.wordpress.com
"I'm very interested in one of your more client-facing positions. I want to be the public face of your company!"
 
2013-01-07 08:46:50 AM
I'm sensing a lot of "I'm a petty, angry, introverted asshole, but you are obligated to hire me because of my self-categorized superior skillset even though you would rather punch me in the face than look at me" in this thread.

While aptitude is certainly important, making sure that you're not hiring some self-absorbed shiathead that is going to bring down the moral of the entire office is equally so. If you can't handle being asked what was the last movie that you saw then my question would be what is it you are trying to hide?
 
2013-01-07 09:00:01 AM

gadian: I've found the best work places are genuinely the most diverse. This means no one "cultural fit" for a company. You have curmudgeons, air heads, frat boys, nerds, dweebs, etc. all piled into one room and make it work because you're adults and can be professional even if you're not nearly identical to the person sitting next to you.


A culture of professionalism. Something that can cut across many personality types, if you look for it in people.

I work for a "family company". This is often touted as a positive "culture thing" around here. You want to talk about nepotism? About a third of the people who work here- most of them in influential positions- are related to one another by blood or marriage. I'm among the few who isn't. I actually had one vendor tell me that- before his company even considered working with us- they did a mini-genealogical study of the company. it was probably a wise decision on their part.

I had the occasion of being in a meeting the other day regarding a company website we're having an outside contractor work on. The contractor has only been in a handful of times. We don't know him overly well. Despite all that, our CEO/Owner (and also head of the family) was behaving in a way that would have been more congruent with drunken Friday night bar revelry. Swearing like a sailor, being belligerent and rude to the contractor, all that good stuff.

It's not the first time I've been embarrassed by my "superiors" in this company, but it was the first time it involved the CEO. I felt bad for the contractor, and I could see it in his face- the same thing I felt: "oh for the love of god and all that is holy, get me out of this room".

I've overheard things- things of a very personal nature- that I tend to dismiss or sublimate because, frankly, the less I know about their little interpersonal drama, the happier I am apt to be. I'm not a gossip, personal scandals and entanglements with people I wouldn't associate with outside of the need for a paycheck don't interest me much.

Which isn't to say I haven't been friendly with people in my places of work in the past- or that I haven't cultivated relationships of a personal nature- even here. But these have always been conducted in a mutually beneficial and sensible fashion, and they "escalated" in a natural way. People who are over-loud, and who blurt out all manner of personal things without regard for tact don't really interest me in a personal way.

I'm not that sort of person. Mostly, I want to do my work and I want to go home at the end of the day. If you're an interesting enough person to me that I'd like to strike up a conversation about personal things, I'll do that. Otherwise, I'm more than happy to be 'that strange guy who doesn't quite fit here, but boy is he good with computers'.

I'll never criticize you for the company you keep, or the affairs you conduct, the substances you're addicted to (the porn you download), and so on- because I won't know about it. I'll expect the same courtesy- the same professionalism- from you.

It's the only "company culture" that really matters to me.
 
2013-01-07 09:05:12 AM

Nemo's Brother: Aces and Eights: Weirdest question anyone asked me in a job interview: "What would you do if you were on a bus and someone was drunk and threw up in the aisle?"

Somehow I must have given the right answer. I was offered the job, and accepted it. Didn't stay long. The place was stranger than the interview.

How did you respond?


Shoot the hostage.
 
2013-01-07 09:05:19 AM

StrangeQ: If you can't handle being asked what was the last movie that you saw then my question would be what is it you are trying to hide?


I'm trying to hide the fact that I find your belief that my taste in movies obscures something significant about me that's relevant to my ability to to a job and receive a paycheck is flagrantly pretentious and ridiculous, of course.

And the last movie I saw was the Hobbit (to a lesser extent, your wife's sex tape).

Sometimes I lean my head out my window and smile for a satellite picture.
 
2013-01-07 09:06:54 AM
Old: "You suck at irrelevant interview questions and I don't like you." New: "You're just not a cultural fit for us"

One of the many tactics companies use to avoid hiring engineers over 50 without actually admitting it.
 
2013-01-07 09:08:00 AM

zedster: Millennials: If I'm not going to be making great money and have no job security I'd rather work someplace I like and move on when I burn out
Business: Why do you have no loyalty? come back?


THIS ^eleventy.
 
2013-01-07 09:14:27 AM
Fark_Guy_RobI'm not a good culture fit. I don't like *people*, as a general rule. I really don't like my co-workers. I enjoy tasks that are similar to my job; but I don't really want to do my job. I get paid a 'fair wage' but that limits me to only put in a 'fair amount' of effort. I don't bust my ass for the good of the company, I do just enough to get 'good' reviews - nothing more. And the entire time, I have one foot out the door waiting for anything better to come along.

But I'm REALLY GOOD at interviews.

It's strange. I've had a lot of similar situations growing up. When I'm 'on' I can act a certain way - for example - high school debate or theater or being the class clown; but take that away and even though I appear outgoing and social, I just like *attention*, not the people that give it. Once I'm not 'on', I really don't care. I'm not friendly. I don't want to hear about your wife or your kids or your husband or your funny story or anything else. Meh. I just want to dick around for five hours, take a long lunch, and go home.

But put me in an interview - and bam - I'm Mr. Popular! Mr. Good Culture fit. Friendly, funny, knowledgeable...I don't know or plan what I'll say before I show up - but I'm really good at picking up on what they want me to say. Maybe, with some training, I could be some sort of cold-reading psychic...I don't know. One interview I find myself saying how work-life balance is important and how working at a big, faceless insurance company just wasn't for me; that I wanted to 'make a difference'. Got that job. Next interview I'm saying that I just wasn't challenged enough, that I was tired of doing a good job, I wanted to do a great job! I wanted to push myself and see just how far and how good I can become. Even the lunch-interview with co-workers....I could go 10 years without having lunch with a co-worker or asking them a question or caring about an answer; but when I'm on my job interview and we go out to lunch, bam, I can pretend to care. You like that sport? Oh yeah - me too! Why, I even used to play in high school. You guys are all nerds and have level 60 toons on WoW (this was years back when 60 was the cap) oh man! I love that game, let me tell you about my bot wrote! Yeah it *IS* awesome. You guys can't stand slackers who talk about WoW all day? Oh man, me neither. I had some coworkers and all they'd do is talk about stupid computer games. I mean seriously......

Whatever. All complete bullshiat. I want to do the minimum amount of work for the maximum amount of pay. I don't care what I work on. I don't care what the company does or makes or if it exploits 3rd world labor or donates profits to 3rd world countries - I just want my damn check. I'm currently in the banking/finance sector, so that's a more acceptable attitude, but I'd say it even if it weren't true in situations where I think people want to hear it.

But it's a GREAT feeling when someone tells you that you are overpaid for your work history, but offers you your asking salary. Or when they say, 'You don't quite have the qualifications we're looking for; but we are going to take a chance on you, because your a great fit for this role'.

I don't know what a better system would be, but putting a lot of value in someone's interview skills will get you candidates who are good at interviews - not good at work. If you put a value in cultural fit, you'll get people who can pretend to be likable during the interview/hiring phase.

I'm seven for seven in job interviews. If I can make it to the interview, I've gotten an offer 100% of the time. And I'm just some crappy slacker. I've got buddies from college who are twice the employee that I am, who interview poorly, who would be a MUCH BETTER choice than I - but companies are happy enough to hire a-holes like me.


Get out of my head! Seriously though, your actual job-related skills defines the envelope what you can do; your ability to schmooze defines whether you can apply those skills. It's like intelligence: you can be the smartest person in the world, but nobody is going to notice your rich, inner life if you cannot communicate it, bro.
 
2013-01-07 09:15:49 AM

stiletto_the_wise: My interviews are pretty straightforward. Ask questions with one right answer and many wrong ones, and count how many right answers they give. I'm concerned only with competence, because you at least have a hope of measuring competence and using it to objectively compare candidates. I don't care if you like golf or play poker on weekends. Are you smart and can you get shiat done? Those are the only relevant measurements.


One of the places I interviewed at last year should have been a lock, up until the part where the team lead started asking about my involvement in local community service. Evidently planting shrubs at a playground and pretending to enjoy hanging out with disabled kids has become an essential qualification for second-tier IT support. I'd wager that "being a pretty girl with a huge rack" didn't hurt her own career prospects.
 
2013-01-07 09:21:14 AM

ModernLuddite: But seriously, I do NOT socialize with my coworkers. I do not talk to my coworkers. I do not share personal or private information with my coworkers. It's none of their damn business and I will not play games or jockey for position. This is, incidentally, why I will never be in charge of anything, but fark it. I don't like the admission price.


Take it from someone who's made the mistake: you're on the right track. The more you treat your coworkers as friends or -- even worse -- extended family, the more backs you will eventually have to stab.

Or, worse, the more knives you will have to end up removing from yours.

People who don't socialize with their coworkers have a reputation for being "standoffish" and "arrogant". We also have a reputation for working hard and getting results, because we don't spend 45 minutes bullshiatting about last night's episode of Archer or what the f ever.
 
2013-01-07 09:21:47 AM

Nurglitch: It's like intelligence: you can be the smartest person in the world, but nobody is going to notice your rich, inner life if you cannot communicate it, bro.


I dunno, I've always thought actually doing a thing is the most powerful form of communication there is.

Conversely I hear people talking about doing things all the time. Talk, as they say, is cheap. Maybe that's the real reason for this sort of thinking.
 
2013-01-07 09:23:43 AM

DanInKansas: ModernLuddite: But seriously, I do NOT socialize with my coworkers. I do not talk to my coworkers. I do not share personal or private information with my coworkers. It's none of their damn business and I will not play games or jockey for position. This is, incidentally, why I will never be in charge of anything, but fark it. I don't like the admission price.

Take it from someone who's made the mistake: you're on the right track. The more you treat your coworkers as friends or -- even worse -- extended family, the more backs you will eventually have to stab.

Or, worse, the more knives you will have to end up removing from yours.

People who don't socialize with their coworkers have a reputation for being "standoffish" and "arrogant". We also have a reputation for working hard and getting results, because we don't spend 45 minutes bullshiatting about last night's episode of Archer or what the f ever.


TRUTH. I don't care what obscure feature you've hacked to work in Android or how the Bills did yesterday. I'm trying to get my shiat done, go away.
 
2013-01-07 09:37:13 AM

YodaBlues: DanInKansas: ModernLuddite: But seriously, I do NOT socialize with my coworkers. I do not talk to my coworkers. I do not share personal or private information with my coworkers. It's none of their damn business and I will not play games or jockey for position. This is, incidentally, why I will never be in charge of anything, but fark it. I don't like the admission price.

Take it from someone who's made the mistake: you're on the right track. The more you treat your coworkers as friends or -- even worse -- extended family, the more backs you will eventually have to stab.

Or, worse, the more knives you will have to end up removing from yours.

People who don't socialize with their coworkers have a reputation for being "standoffish" and "arrogant". We also have a reputation for working hard and getting results, because we don't spend 45 minutes bullshiatting about last night's episode of Archer or what the f ever.

TRUTH. I don't care what obscure feature you've hacked to work in Android or how the Bills did yesterday. I'm trying to get my shiat done, go away.


Some of these same people who spend a chunk of the day playing office tea party are the ones
that then turn around and run off at the mouth about how they had to come in on Saturday to
"catch up" on all this work they had...If they had actually worked during normal hours instead of
going from office to office chit chatting then over to Starbucks to re-fill their coffee in between they
would have gotten it done..ARGH! I worked with people like that, and I REALLY wanted to call them out
on it so many times when they pulled the "Ya, I was here this weekend.." crap...
 
2013-01-07 09:42:56 AM

HempHead: And no, you don't get to invest in individual stocks in a 401-K because that's about the stupidest thing you could do. If you want to gamble in the stock market, do it with money that's not set aside for retirement.

My last company allowed user directed investments, which was pretty nice.

My current company restricts investments to funds with the highest fees in the industry. I have no doubt that the company (or someone high up) gets a kick back from the fees.


Sadly, it's probably more like somone in an executive position in your company plays golf with someone from that particular investment firm. Even in situations like this though I still say that a 401-K is better than a pension. You just need to be a lot more savvy.
 
2013-01-07 09:44:13 AM
This last point presents a modern quandary: How do companies value diversity and cultural fit, especially if hiring managers are often biased toward hiring people much like themselves?

Answer: They don't.

My favorite new trend is asking thinly veiled questions to determine your political & religious beliefs so that they can discriminate based on that. And yes, companies totally discriminate based on political & religious beliefs, all day, every day, all over the country- and any laws saying otherwise may as well be printed on toilet paper.
 
2013-01-07 09:52:21 AM

Mr. Eugenides: Even in situations like this though I still say that a 401-K is better than a pension.


I never understood the aversion to 401k retirement accounts. Unlike a pension, a company can't simply "loot" it.
 
2013-01-07 09:54:04 AM

GoldSpider: I never understood the aversion to 401k retirement accounts.


There's "aversion" to 401K accounts?
 
2013-01-07 09:54:08 AM

Yoyo: I haven't got the capital nor the borrowing power nor business knowledge needed to start my own business. There's a reason that engineering and business are in two different colleges at most universities.


That, and not everyone has the mindset for starting a business, much less invite the instabilities of contract labor.

/One of the rare birds that would like to see contract/temporary/contingent work die a horrible, grisly, and sudden death
//for all but the people that can readily choose it over FT/direct
 
2013-01-07 09:58:24 AM

SkunkWerks: There's "aversion" to 401K accounts?


Perhaps not the right word (only 1 cup of coffee yet). A lot of folks here bemoan the transition from pensions to 401k accounts, perhaps as a dying relic of a more trusting corporate age.
 
2013-01-07 09:59:29 AM

NephilimNexus: My favorite new trend is asking thinly veiled questions to determine your political & religious beliefs so that they can discriminate based on that. And yes, companies totally discriminate based on political & religious beliefs, all day, every day, all over the country- and any laws saying otherwise may as well be printed on toilet paper.


Given the meme of the "let's look at the parking lot and fire those who have [candidate|politician] bumper sticker first", that is not surprising. You'd have to put some more teeth in the law to ensure that indirect approaches are considered as non-compliant as direct ones. It doesn't stop when you do get hired.


GoldSpider: I never understood the aversion to 401k retirement accounts. Unlike a pension, a company can't simply "loot" it.


Market instability, otherwise everyone from the top down would take a 401k.
 
2013-01-07 10:06:49 AM

whatshisname: What's asinine about it? Fitting into a workplace is just as important as skills.


That is where that rare job skill called "professionalism" comes into play.
 
2013-01-07 10:07:01 AM

AloysiusSnuffleupagus: A resource is something that exists to be exploited.

When personnel became human resources is when it all went to hell.


This. For the love of all that is holy, THIS. One of the snarkier questions I've ever asked an employer during an interview was whether their people's-paperwork-managing department was called Personnel or HR. They liked that question. :-)

On a related note, A Deepness in the Sky is an excellent novel, and puts a different spin on "dept of human resources".
 
2013-01-07 10:08:11 AM

GoldSpider: Perhaps not the right word (only 1 cup of coffee yet).


I was thinking it had more to do with "needing that money to live on a day-to-day basis" myself.
 
2013-01-07 10:13:34 AM

StinkyFiddlewinks: Seems these days when I interview for a web-design/programming position I'm confronted with nothing but self-important hipsters, and it gives me a sad.


the arrogance expressed by tech firms in NYC is off the charts at the moment. very reminiscent of i-bankers in 2005-2006.
 
2013-01-07 10:16:37 AM
I had a job a couple years ago where the whole staff really liked each other, went out on weekends and drank together etc. I don't drink though, and really, even aside from that I'm a bit of a square. I mean, I don't act all judgy of what others are doing, but I clearly don't fit in with a bunch of people who live to get smashed twice a week.

So, while I get the 'cultural fit' angle in hiring, what is someone like me supposed to do in a place like that? I was uncomfortable, none of them liked me much socially, but I was fine at my job. Eventually I left though. I just wish I felt confident that all that won't happen over and over again; there aren't too many offices full of non-religious teetotalers out there.
 
2013-01-07 10:19:30 AM

sethstorm: Market instability, otherwise everyone from the top down would take a 401k.


SkunkWerks: I was thinking it had more to do with "needing that money to live on a day-to-day basis" myself.


At least a company can't loot an employee's 401k like they (apparently) can a pension. So there's that.
 
2013-01-07 10:22:10 AM

sethstorm: Market instability, otherwise everyone from the top down would take a 401k.


Ideally that's why a 401k will let you just keep it in cash or "cash equivalents" if you really don't trust equities.
 
2013-01-07 10:24:07 AM
I honestly think that anyone with at least average intellegence can be trained to do most jobs out there as effectively as someone with a degree. Obviously I'm not counting something like doctors in that. So if I was hiring for my own company, my priorities would be someone who seems pleasant to be around and isn't a slacker.
 
2013-01-07 10:24:54 AM

Mr. Eugenides: I still say that a 401-K is better than a pension. You just need to be a lot more savvy.


Those are conflicting positions!
 
2013-01-07 10:27:58 AM

Gyrfalcon: I"m not going to get a job. That's it. I'm just going to do something that people will pay me for and screw working for people who want me to "culturally fit in" with them.

Your loss not mine.


You have chosen wisely.
 
2013-01-07 10:31:25 AM

browntimmy: I honestly think that anyone with at least average intellegence can be trained to do most jobs out there as effectively as someone with a degree. Obviously I'm not counting something like doctors in that. So if I was hiring for my own company, my priorities would be someone who seems pleasant to be around and isn't a slacker.


Thank this case for the beginning of degree requirements vs training.
 
2013-01-07 10:31:47 AM
My caulking job was a good cultural fit for the HR person.
 
2013-01-07 10:36:20 AM

stiletto_the_wise: Smacker: I'm always curious; what metrics do HR personnel use to justify their processes and techniques? Do they have actual evidence that their system of irrelevant and arbitrary qualifiers results in better hires than, say, letting some random person in the office pick somebody?

THIS.

My interviews are pretty straightforward. Ask questions with one right answer and many wrong ones, and count how many right answers they give. I'm concerned only with competence, because you at least have a hope of measuring competence and using it to objectively compare candidates. I don't care if you like golf or play poker on weekends. Are you smart and can you get shiat done? Those are the only relevant measurements.

shoegaze99: When I've been in charge of hiring, you'd better believe that "cultural fit" (I didn't use stupid terms like that) was just as important as skill set. I'd take someone with slightly less skills but who would be a great fit for our team and my management style than someone with great skills who wouldn't be right for our workplace. If a person fits well with the rest of the staff and is someone you feel good about working with/managing, that a huge plus over someone who will be an outcast on your staff or who you'll hate working with.

This kind of mentality is how likable frat boys get hired over people who studied hard and know their shiat. Feel lucky you don't have a "Google equivalent" in your industry to compete with.


So your interview questions also screen for cultural fit.  Your culture just happens to be mechanistic.
 
2013-01-07 10:37:38 AM

GoldSpider: Mr. Eugenides: Even in situations like this though I still say that a 401-K is better than a pension.

I never understood the aversion to 401k retirement accounts. Unlike a pension, a company can't simply "loot" it.


Yes, the brokers and bankers are the ones who loot it, not the company.
It's cool sending away a percentage of everyone's paychecks to Wall Street.
And that's pre-tax, too!
Every week, Wall Street firms receive a gushing flood of money to "invest," which is never seen again, ever. And people send this money down the rabbit hole voluntarily.
That's the best part: The largest wealth transfer/theft in the history of the planet and it's voluntary on the part of those being stolen from.
 
2013-01-07 10:38:59 AM

GoldSpider: At least a company can't loot an employee's 401k like they (apparently) can a pension. So there's that.


Can't loot what no one puts money into, that's true.
 
2013-01-07 10:40:11 AM
Six months ago I started as Director of Security at a company that does a lot of research study work. Cultural fit was a huge part of the interview process, they only wanted to hire someone who was qualified, but also someone they wanted to work with. As I got to know people here I heard multiple times, "I've only been with the company 15 years.". The first time I heard this I went, "Wait...what?" Five years is considered long to be at a company these days, especially in IT, but I had heard correctly. People don't leave this company, at 15 years you're considered to be just settled in.

So this company offers job security, stability, and cultivates an environment of competent, loyal, people that you want to spend time with. I'd say the results of "cultural fit" shouldn't be ignored, it's critical to many aspects of business success.

One other nice thing, it's an employee owned company, and I'm shocked more businesses don't go this direction, it really gives everyone a legitimate feeling of being invested in the company's success.
 
2013-01-07 10:41:57 AM

zedster: FTFA:""These trends are being driven by millennials because they care about culture," says Dan Schawbel, author of Me: 2.0. "Research shows that millennials typically stay at a job for about two years-and they have different priorities. They'd rather have meaningful work over more pay, or work for a company that gives back or cares about the environment. They want a culture that's less hierarchical, more flexible, and more understanding of difference, because millennials are the most diverse generation."

NO NO NO NO NO NO

WWII Gen: Hey I'll get a job and work at it for 20+ yrs, return you'll give me benefits like a pension
Business: Okay

Baby Boomers: I'd like what my parents had
Business: nope you'll have a 401K that we will raid and no job security

Millennials: If I'm not going to be making great money and have no job security I'd rather work someplace I like and move on when I burn out
Business: Why do you have no loyalty? come back?

If I had the choice between culture or a place that actually took care of it's employees without screwing them over I would take the security. Having fallen into IT I have to say the contractor system is not going to inspire me to do anything less then the bare minimum, what incentive do I have? I have no profit share, no chance of getting hired on (always a false carrot they dangle), and very little security. At best Millennials are just waiting for the huge delayed wave of Baby Boomer to retire and open up the job market for them, at worst you are looking at generation that will have far less opportunity and quality of life then their parents.


"And here's another thing...I have 8 different bosses...."

img2-3.timeinc.net
 
2013-01-07 10:43:03 AM

Lsherm: When I was in college I was a manager for the engineering school's "tech crew" - students who fixed computers on campus.  They were cushy jobs, and there were 10 slots to hire for every year.  The first year I got to hire students I was informed by another employee that it was a "Pakistani year."  Turns out for years the Indian students and the Pakistani students had been swapping out the tech crew jobs because they refused to work with one another.  So on an Indian year, only Indian students would apply, and on a Pakistani year, only Pakistani students would apply.

I asked the employee what would happen if I hired a white or black employee, and he assured me that wouldn't happen.  I asked him why.  "Because I throw those resumes out," he said.


But aren't most resume's black AND white?
 
2013-01-07 10:46:52 AM
As a manager of an IT organization, I do find that I value team fit over technical skills everyday of the week. I have a very high performing team that gets the job done and I will not hire someone that I believe may cause friction to the individuals in the group.

Technical skills can be taught, personalities are much, much harder to change. The very first thing I do when I join a new organization is to find the toxic personalities and remove them from the team regardless of their skill sets or how much they individually produce.

I would rather have a team of people that can learn the technology and get along than 1 or 2 "heroes" that make it all work but are giant pricks about it.

Most of my hiring manager peers feel the same way.

So it is not "Get a Clue" it is "Get a Life"

Welcome to the workforce.
 
2013-01-07 10:47:40 AM

BarkingUnicorn: But aren't most resume's black AND white?


Aren't most resume's what black and white?

Typeface? That's black.

The paper's white and makes up most of the resume.
 
2013-01-07 10:55:39 AM
While I respect the idea that there is a need for some cultural fit in a work environment, it shouldn't be anywhere near the top criterion. In a well defined and designed hiring methodology, "cultural fit" shouldn't make up more than 10 percent of a candidate's score.

I have worked in two environments that are heavy on cultural fit. The first was a small, family run research firm. I left after a year because the boardroom basically became the second home of dinner table arguments and it was impossible to get anything done. With a homogenous work culture, there were never alternative ideas or viewpoints. This is the main reason the company was failing. I also worked with a police organization. Most of us who watch the news, have seen the pitfalls of police organizations too hung up on their culture. Again, no new ideas, and the same old boys club mentality. Groupthink was also a huge problem.

As a hiring manager, I NEED people on my team who can disagree with presented ideas, bring new ideas to the table, and share their different perspectives. Ultimately, I'm going to make a decision and some ideas will be discarded. This approach leads to what I think is the most important cultural fit question: "How do you handle situations where your ideas are not accepted by the group or manager"? I need people who can behave professionally, are not so hung up on their ego that their idea MUST be right, and can communicate effectively.

Ultimately, I don't want to work with my friends. I don't go for drinks with my staff regularly and prefer professional distance. Let's face it, if you're somewhat competent, there's a good chance that someday you'll get promoted. There's a mountain of evidence that demonstrates just how hard it is to fire your friends. I want colleagues - not bros.
 
2013-01-07 10:56:09 AM

ChiliCon: Technical skills can be taught, personalities are much, much harder to change.


In a truly professional environ, personality shouldn't be an issue in the first place.

ChiliCon: find the toxic personalities


People who make giant douchebags of themselves (apparently on purpose) are every bit as unwelcome in a professional environ.

They are generally tolerated (perhaps even elevated) as part of an unprofessional one, I find- often for a variety of reasons unrelated to their overall performance.

ChiliCon: I would rather have a team of people that can learn the technology and get along than 1 or 2 "heroes" that make it all work but are giant pricks about it.


I'd rather not have giant pricks that spend all their day regaling me about deeply personal stuff I'd rather not know about them (usually loudly) either. Again, in an actual professional setting, neither sort of behavior is tolerated.

I'd rather not have those sorts of people welcomed and even credited with doing work they don't do simply because they're so-and-so's drinking buddy.
 
2013-01-07 11:02:39 AM
I would have one question. Did you like the movie or book "The Help"?

moovz.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-01-07 11:06:01 AM

falcon176: Ishidan: falcon176: loyalty is dead don't give employers 2 weeks notice, they won't give you 2 hours

Let me guess, you've gotten the "Here's a box, clean out your desk, your computer access has already been locked, this security guard will make sure you don't take company property with you" treatment at least once.

*checks profile*

Why I can't imagine why somebody would do such a thing to a person with SUCH a charming personality.

checking profiles to judge people while having a profile that says "I piss people off"
mine says the same thing but it's longer get on my level kiddo


Hell, who doesn't piss people off anymore? These days it seems like some folks panties/boxers get twisted up like pretzels right after they put them on. I read your profile and thought it was hilarious! Especially the part about how Texas became a state. Another thing I do find funny is everyone that is pissing and crying about your profile I have farkied as a Libtard.
 
2013-01-07 11:06:30 AM

SkunkWerks: ChiliCon: Technical skills can be taught, personalities are much, much harder to change.

In a truly professional environ, personality shouldn't be an issue in the first place.

ChiliCon: find the toxic personalities

People who make giant douchebags of themselves (apparently on purpose) are every bit as unwelcome in a professional environ.

They are generally tolerated (perhaps even elevated) as part of an unprofessional one, I find- often for a variety of reasons unrelated to their overall performance.

ChiliCon: I would rather have a team of people that can learn the technology and get along than 1 or 2 "heroes" that make it all work but are giant pricks about it.

I'd rather not have giant pricks that spend all their day regaling me about deeply personal stuff I'd rather not know about them (usually loudly) either. Again, in an actual professional setting, neither sort of behavior is tolerated.

I'd rather not have those sorts of people welcomed and even credited with doing work they don't do simply because they're so-and-so's drinking buddy.


I agree with most of your post except that you seem to equate culture fit with "Drinking Buddy" That is not my definition.

If a person has a positive outlook; can offer a well-reasoned, well-communicated divergent positions; graciously accept winning and losing arguments; sees the possibilities and not the obstacles; and focuses on the success of the customer, then they are a good cultural fit. Unless they have no personal hygiene...

I would hire the above with minimal technical skills over an expert with 10+ years experience and lacking in one or more of those areas every time.
 
2013-01-07 11:11:40 AM

ChiliCon: sees the possibilities and not the obstacles


You also need people who can see and predict the obstacles. If you don't plan for those obstacles, then your ability to overcome them and to reach those possibilities diminishes.

/says a long time "yes that's a great goal, here are the risks we need to mitigate in order to get there" person
//still learning how to say that in a positive, life affirming manner.
 
2013-01-07 11:13:24 AM

FormlessOne: I work in an "at will" employment state.


That narrows it down to about fifty.
 
2013-01-07 11:17:44 AM

BMFPitt: swingerofbirches: I did phone support from home for Apple, and one week the incentive was that if your team sold more AppleCare than another team, the other team's lead would have to dress up in drag and sing "I feel pretty" via webam (it was a virtual job). I would get messages from my team lead asking me if I was "pumped" about the contest.

Your reply might have been, "Why would I want to see the other lead have to do that? "


Or, "Actually, I think the lawsuit will be more entertaining."  There have been suits that arose from such frat house hazing games.

I would refuse to participate in such a thing the instant it was announced.
 
2013-01-07 11:19:00 AM

Pennsylvania Dutch Oven: In a well defined and designed hiring methodology, "cultural fit" shouldn't make up more than 10 percent of a candidate's score.


Attempting to measure a candidate's suitability for a position quantitatively guarantees one of two outcomes:
1. qualified people are passed over, or inappropriate candidates hired, because there are intangible factors not accounted for in the scoring system;
2. hiring managers fudge the evaluation numbers enough to achieve the hiring decision they want in their gut.

If anything, and like everything in HR, that kind of hiring methodology's benefit is that the company ends up with a paper trail that makes them seem unbiased if there's a lawsuit.
 
2013-01-07 11:21:59 AM

ChiliCon: except that you seem to equate culture fit with "Drinking Buddy" That is not my definition.


You seem to equate "hard-working" with "being a douchebag". Touche.

ChiliCon: That is not my definition.


Whether it's your definition or not, when you place more importance on qualities not related to work, it's what you invite. It's an environment I'm very familiar with because I work in it. Can't tell you how often I have to bite my tongue in front of some mouth-breathing mini-mind who only holds his position because of who he knows and not what he knows.

As I said upthread, the only "company culture" that's relevant to me is a professional one. One where I do my best leave my personal grudges and nitpicks at home and can reasonably expect the same from my co-workers. It's not an environment that precludes friendship, so much as it's an environ that isn't hopelessly dependent on it.

In such an environment, I presumably don't have to come off as a "giant prick" to my team mates for getting the job done because all of my "team mates" are presumably every bit as invested in the same goal as I am. By definition, people who think me "getting work done" is me "being a giant prick" are about 80% less "co-workers" by volume.
 
2013-01-07 11:24:24 AM

Electriclectic: Where do you see yourself in five years?


That depends on whether or not you hire me. I"ll either be working here or working somewhere else. Either way I'll be doing much the same thing as I'm doing today. Squeezing every bit of BIM out of Revit as possible and making plenty of money doing it. It all just depends on who wants me making money for them as to where I'm at in 5 years.
 
2013-01-07 11:28:44 AM

Iron Felix: In 10-15 years when the boomers are out of the workforce, applicants will be asking questions to the dic.face HR people who are rejecting them today.


Dream on. As Baby Boomers retire, many of those high-paying jobs are being phased out. As the United States continues to descend to third-world status, income inequality will continue to grow, and for more and more educated adults temp work will be the norm rather than the exception.

Welcome to the United States of Lotto, where the best jobs are fewer but higher-paying. Multinational corporations playing in global markets are no longer dependent on American consumers, so the American middle class becomes a burden rather than a boost to their bottom line and must be shrunk if not wholly eliminated. This is not a generational issue: the Gen-Xers doing much of the hiring today are just as willing to screw the middle class (all the while demanding tax breaks and other special favors from city and state governments, bankrupting the public sector) as their elders; perhaps even more so.

/baby boomer (barely; b. 1963)
//don't blame me, I'm unemployed too
 
2013-01-07 11:53:00 AM

clane: I would have one question. Did you like the movie or book "The Help"?

[moovz.files.wordpress.com image 250x400]


Because if they didn't, they can go eat shiat?
 
2013-01-07 11:53:22 AM

Cornelius Dribble: Iron Felix: In 10-15 years when the boomers are out of the workforce, applicants will be asking questions to the dic.face HR people who are rejecting them today.

Dream on. As Baby Boomers retire, many of those high-paying jobs are being phased out. As the United States continues to descend to third-world status, income inequality will continue to grow, and for more and more educated adults temp work will be the norm rather than the exception.

Welcome to the United States of Lotto, where the best jobs are fewer but higher-paying. Multinational corporations playing in global markets are no longer dependent on American consumers, so the American middle class becomes a burden rather than a boost to their bottom line and must be shrunk if not wholly eliminated. This is not a generational issue: the Gen-Xers doing much of the hiring today are just as willing to screw the middle class (all the while demanding tax breaks and other special favors from city and state governments, bankrupting the public sector) as their elders; perhaps even more so.

/baby boomer (barely; b. 1963)
//don't blame me, I'm unemployed too


Yeah, hilarious isn't it?
I just finished a seven-week full-time temp gig loading trucks in a distribution center for a small but well-known company in Virginia. Wages straight out of 1990, no benefits, passive-aggressive nepotistic rednecks in middle management who are married to each other, their kids "working" for some Christmas money (actually just standing around while the rest of us were nice to them), a management culture that's more interested in sustaining the cash cow than efficient operations.
First day: "We don't have time to train you to pick orders. Go load trucks."
Last day: "Too bad you don't pick orders! See ya!"

Good riddance.
 
2013-01-07 11:55:16 AM

Ishidan: Oldiron_79: Ive had issues with "zomfg you was laid off, laid off people must have been dead wood" um no I was laid off because i was bottom of the totem pole douche. I have lots of verifiable experiance and a provable good work record.

Are you saying you were the douche, or did you call the interviewer a douche?


I've never met a people that use a totem pole to douche. That's really hard core, and awesome. Don't know how well I'd fit into the culture, or the totem pole, though.
 
2013-01-07 11:57:16 AM

HotIgneous Intruder: GoldSpider: Mr. Eugenides: Even in situations like this though I still say that a 401-K is better than a pension.

I never understood the aversion to 401k retirement accounts. Unlike a pension, a company can't simply "loot" it.

Yes, the brokers and bankers are the ones who loot it, not the company.
It's cool sending away a percentage of everyone's paychecks to Wall Street.
And that's pre-tax, too!
Every week, Wall Street firms receive a gushing flood of money to "invest," which is never seen again, ever. And people send this money down the rabbit hole voluntarily.
That's the best part: The largest wealth transfer/theft in the history of the planet and it's voluntary on the part of those being stolen from.


How exactly do you think pension funds are any different? They both are managed by Wall St. in exchange for fees.

Pensions can be looted, underfunded, and are otherwise subject to the reality that the entity providing the pension may not exist when you retire. And they have the indentured servitude aspect of long vesting periods, locking people into jobs that they may otherwise hate.

401Ks are just much better all the way around.
 
2013-01-07 12:01:45 PM

Meow928: I wasn't going to comment on this... but I'm bored.

Last year, with a little over a year's worth of experience - I applied to work at the nastiest, grungiest bar in my town. I've wanted to be a bartender for a long time, and even though I am currently working as one, it's in more of a snobby lounge, less of a real bar. I like the seediness of a real bar.

The bar I applied at is full of rednecks and bikers, rough republicans mostly. I myself am a rough republican with libertarian tendencies.

My interview started out well - "If I hired you, what could you bring to my bar?" I was asked. My response was "Friendly, efficient service - and I like to clean while I work" (the bar needs to be cleaned badly it is really gross). He then asked "What experience do you have?" I respond with "I graduated from bartending school before my daughter was born, and I have a little over a year's worth of real life experience" (I know two other girls with NO bartending experience who he hired later on). We briefly discussed the hours I would be available and that went well, since I sell my soul to my job and will work whatever they tell me to. But then, out of left field he says "We are coming up on the anniversary of the World Trade Center, you know, 9/11 - Do you think they're going to come after us again?" I said "Of course not, first of all it's already been done, second of all we would be expecting it!" He nodded sagely told me he would make a decision in a couple days and call me back. I called to follow up, and he had hired a friend of mine's step brother. This dude he hired is a tweeker, liberal, and didn't last 3 weeks before walking out on the job.

I am STILL mad. Truth is, I make a hell of a lot more at the lounge I work in... (and he actually did me a favor not hiring me) but I would have been an AMAZING employee for that bar. Reliable, hard working, enthusiastic, and even mostly republican. I'm still trying to figure out where things went wrong.

I post this, because it was a totally unrelated question there at the end, and I've always suspected that's where things went wrong. That or he LIKES his bar filthy and disgusting and was afraid someone cleaning it would kill the "atmosphere"


You might just be letting more Crazy into the atmosphere than you're aware of. I got a strong whiff of it just from reading your rant...
 
2013-01-07 12:02:05 PM

OptionC: HotIgneous Intruder: GoldSpider: Mr. Eugenides: Even in situations like this though I still say that a 401-K is better than a pension.

I never understood the aversion to 401k retirement accounts. Unlike a pension, a company can't simply "loot" it.

Yes, the brokers and bankers are the ones who loot it, not the company.
It's cool sending away a percentage of everyone's paychecks to Wall Street.
And that's pre-tax, too!
Every week, Wall Street firms receive a gushing flood of money to "invest," which is never seen again, ever. And people send this money down the rabbit hole voluntarily.
That's the best part: The largest wealth transfer/theft in the history of the planet and it's voluntary on the part of those being stolen from.

How exactly do you think pension funds are any different? They both are managed by Wall St. in exchange for fees.

Pensions can be looted, underfunded, and are otherwise subject to the reality that the entity providing the pension may not exist when you retire. And they have the indentured servitude aspect of long vesting periods, locking people into jobs that they may otherwise hate.

401Ks are just much better all the way around.


I guess you're a half-full kind of farker.
Would you prefer to be hammered in the anus with a phone pole or a streetlamp?
IT'S ALL GOOD!
 
2013-01-07 12:04:16 PM
COMMUNICATION!
 
2013-01-07 12:08:43 PM
 
2013-01-07 12:16:15 PM

Fark_Guy_Rob: I'm not a good culture fit. I don't like *people*, as a general rule. I really don't like my co-workers. I enjoy tasks that are similar to my job; but I don't really want to do my job. I get paid a 'fair wage' but that limits me to only put in a 'fair amount' of effort. I don't bust my ass for the good of the company, I do just enough to get 'good' reviews - nothing more. And the entire time, I have one foot out the door waiting for anything better to come along.

But I'm REALLY GOOD at interviews.

It's strange. I've had a lot of similar situations growing up. When I'm 'on' I can act a certain way - for example - high school debate or theater or being the class clown; but take that away and even though I appear outgoing and social, I just like *attention*, not the people that give it. Once I'm not 'on', I really don't care. I'm not friendly. I don't want to hear about your wife or your kids or your husband or your funny story or anything else. Meh. I just want to dick around for five hours, take a long lunch, and go home.

But put me in an interview - and bam - I'm Mr. Popular! Mr. Good Culture fit. Friendly, funny, knowledgeable...I don't know or plan what I'll say before I show up - but I'm really good at picking up on what they want me to say. Maybe, with some training, I could be some sort of cold-reading psychic...I don't know. One interview I find myself saying how work-life balance is important and how working at a big, faceless insurance company just wasn't for me; that I wanted to 'make a difference'. Got that job. Next interview I'm saying that I just wasn't challenged enough, that I was tired of doing a good job, I wanted to do a great job! I wanted to push myself and see just how far and how good I can become. Even the lunch-interview with co-workers....I could go 10 years without having lunch with a co-worker or asking them a question or caring about an answer; but when I'm on my job interview and we go out to lunch, bam, I can pretend to care. You like that sport? Oh yeah - me too! Why, I even used to play in high school. You guys are all nerds and have level 60 toons on WoW (this was years back when 60 was the cap) oh man! I love that game, let me tell you about my bot wrote! Yeah it *IS* awesome. You guys can't stand slackers who talk about WoW all day? Oh man, me neither. I had some coworkers and all they'd do is talk about stupid computer games. I mean seriously......

Whatever. All complete bullshiat. I want to do the minimum amount of work for the maximum amount of pay. I don't care what I work on. I don't care what the company does or makes or if it exploits 3rd world labor or donates profits to 3rd world countries - I just want my damn check. I'm currently in the banking/finance sector, so that's a more acceptable attitude, but I'd say it even if it weren't true in situations where I think people want to hear it.

But it's a GREAT feeling when someone tells you that you are overpaid for your work history, but offers you your asking salary. Or when they say, 'You don't quite have the qualifications we're looking for; but we are going to take a chance on you, because your a great fit for this role'.

I don't know what a better system would be, but putting a lot of value in someone's interview skills will get you candidates who are good at interviews - not good at work. If you put a value in cultural fit, you'll get people who can pretend to be likable during the interview/hiring phase.

I'm seven for seven in job interviews. If I can make it to the interview, I've gotten an offer 100% of the time. And I'm just some crappy slacker. I've got buddies from college who are twice the employee that I am, who interview poorly, who would be a MUCH BETTER choice than I - but companies are happy enough to hire a-holes like me.


Why, hello there, me from 2003!

\faking humble is a lot easier than actually being humbled. I hope your run of luck doesn't quit at JUST the wrong time...
 
2013-01-07 12:23:58 PM

StrangeQ: clane: I would have one question. Did you like the movie or book "The Help"?

[moovz.files.wordpress.com image 250x400]

Because if they didn't, they can go eat shiat?


yew tooks the wurds right out of my mouth...
 
2013-01-07 12:26:27 PM

HotIgneous Intruder: Google up the 401K scam.


HotIgneous Intruder: Google up the 401K scam.


Most financial advisers recommend moving your assets to lower risk investments when your investment horizon starts to shorten. All the people who lost money in their 401(k) when the stock market collapsed will likely recover their value, given enough time.

If you do not have any risk tolerance, and your goal is simply capital preservation, you can either invest in a diversified portfolio that uses a combination of stocks, bonds, and commodities to insure that you do not lose (or make) money no matter which way the market turns.

401(k)'s are not a scam. The worst that you can say is that they expose the risks and rewards to equity trading to a group of less sophisticated investors who may not understand the tradeoffs.
 
2013-01-07 12:28:06 PM

MycroftHolmes: The worst that you can say is that they expose the risks and rewards to equity trading to a group of less sophisticated investors who may not understand the tradeoffs.


I think that's pretty bad on it's own, I don't know about you.
 
2013-01-07 12:31:33 PM
As somebody who really enjoys her coworkers, I'm okay with vetting applicants regarding how well they would fit into the environment.
 
2013-01-07 12:34:11 PM
all of these "401k is a scam" stories pop up when the market has a bad year.

when it has a good year, they usually shut up.

/put your 401k money in low fee index funds, whatever your age is should be the portion invested in bonds.
 
2013-01-07 12:35:46 PM

SkunkWerks: MycroftHolmes: The worst that you can say is that they expose the risks and rewards to equity trading to a group of less sophisticated investors who may not understand the tradeoffs.

I think that's pretty bad on it's own, I don't know about you.


But it is not an inherent risk. There is plenty of sound, conservative financial advice. Most 401(k) administrators offer financial consulting. Call them up, talk to them a bit, let them understand your goals and risk threshhold, and you are fine. Calling a decision to not take responsibility for your finances a 'scam' is the same as calling someone who sold you a car you couldn't afford a scammer.
 
2013-01-07 12:38:34 PM

The My Little Pony Killer: As somebody who really enjoys her coworkers, I'm okay with vetting applicants regarding how well they would fit into the environment.


Whenever I hired, the last interview was always between the applicant and their future coworkers. I explicitly told them I did not want to know what questions were asked, I simply wanted them to tell me if they would like to work with the applicant. They didn't have to validate their answer. They didn't have to give reasons. If an applicant set off the bad vibe meter for any reason, on to the next candidate.
 
2013-01-07 12:40:20 PM

MycroftHolmes: Calling a decision to not take responsibility for your finances a 'scam' is the same as calling someone who sold you a car you couldn't afford a scammer.


And calling "unsophisticated investors", "investors".

There's a reason I don't play the lottery. Now it seems I must in order to retire comfortably.
 
2013-01-07 12:46:53 PM

MycroftHolmes: 401(k)'s are not a scam. The worst that you can say is that they expose the risks and rewards to equity trading to a group of less sophisticated investors who may not understand the tradeoffs.


Yeah, about that.

/You bourgeois idiots are going to get ska-rewed.
 
2013-01-07 12:50:10 PM
it should be illegal to deny people work because you don't like them.

life should not be a popularity contest.

grown ups should be able to work with people they don't like personally.

if you have a problem working with someone then YOU have the problem, not them.

high school ends for a reason.
 
2013-01-07 12:55:53 PM

optimus_grime: it should be illegal to deny people work because you don't like them.

life should not be a popularity contest.

grown ups should be able to work with people they don't like personally.

if you have a problem working with someone then YOU have the problem, not them.

high school ends for a reason.


Adults are just 12-year-olds with more money. Or toddlers, depending.
Never forget that.
 
2013-01-07 01:06:24 PM
Currently I work in a toxic work environment. The staff is fine, our clients are fine the problem is the boss. He was hired a little over a year ago and since getting here has pretty much bullied everyone. He will find something wrong with one employee and pick on them until they quit or get fired. He wrote up a guy last year for wearing a hat inside, just as he walked in from the rain. I know his bosses are looking for a reason to fire him, they have sat me down and told asked me about my observations of him and does the staff respect him. Last year he got the lowest site manager reviews in the country and had a hissy fit at the staff over it and in the year has not improved one bit, so the staff didnt even bother to fill out reviews this year about him, I told the regional manager this in our meeting. They better do something about him soon or the rats will start to jump ship and he will be left here with his buddies.
 
2013-01-07 01:08:07 PM

optimus_grime: it should be illegal to deny people work because you don't like them.

life should not be a popularity contest.

grown ups should be able to work with people they don't like personally.

if you have a problem working with someone then YOU have the problem, not them.

high school ends for a reason.


optimus_grime: it should be illegal to deny people work because you don't like them.

life should not be a popularity contest.

grown ups should be able to work with people they don't like personally.

if you have a problem working with someone then YOU have the problem, not them.

high school ends for a reason.


This may be the most unrealistic view of adulthood ever recorded. Companies should, and are, be allowed to deny people employment if I think no one will get along with them because it's bad for business to have unhappy employees.

Life is a popularity contest, it's nearly impossible to advance if you don't have friends and allies who believe in the work that you do and aren't afraid to say good things about you to the people who don't know you yet.

Grownups are the same people they were when they were younger, including when they were in high school. They don't magically hit 18 and go, "Well, thank god that's over, now I can ignore all the petty bullshait I see around me every day." People are basically who they are from age 10.

If someone is a jerkoff to everyone around them, I really don't think it's me who has the problem. I've worked with jerkoffs before, you tolerate them because you have a job to do but you get out as soon as you can. That's bad for business.
 
2013-01-07 01:14:56 PM

dennerman: Life is a popularity contest, it's nearly impossible to advance if you don't have friends and allies who believe in the work that you do and aren't afraid to say good things about you to the people who don't know you yet.


i.telegraph.co.uk
 
2013-01-07 01:17:50 PM

MycroftHolmes: Calling a decision to not take responsibility for your finances a 'scam' is the same as calling someone who sold you a car you couldn't afford a scammer.


Let's not pretend that choosing between "give your money to a conservative investment fund chosen by your employer" and "give your money to a riskier investment fund chosen by your employer" comprises "talking responsibility for your finances."
 
2013-01-07 01:22:27 PM

Nemo's Brother: Lsherm: When I was in college I was a manager for the engineering school's "tech crew" - students who fixed computers on campus.  They were cushy jobs, and there were 10 slots to hire for every year.  The first year I got to hire students I was informed by another employee that it was a "Pakistani year."  Turns out for years the Indian students and the Pakistani students had been swapping out the tech crew jobs because they refused to work with one another.  So on an Indian year, only Indian students would apply, and on a Pakistani year, only Pakistani students would apply.

I asked the employee what would happen if I hired a white or black employee, and he assured me that wouldn't happen.  I asked him why.  "Because I throw those resumes out," he said.

Few places are more racist than in the Mecca of liberal thought.


An engineering school is the Mecca of liberal thought?
 
2013-01-07 01:24:07 PM

Fish in a Barrel: If you're lucky enough to work for a company where everyone gets along and has a good time together, that's worth a lot. When office drama is minimal, it just makes everyone's lives easier and more pleasant. It doesn't mean you hire someone who is under-qualified just because you like them, but you certainly don't want to hire or retain someone that his ruining the atmosphere for everyone. I spend 45 hours a week in the office with these people. You're damned right I want people to fit into the company culture. Not that I'm the one in charge of these things, but we do get asked about whether the newbies are fitting in before their probationary period is over.


we play games at night with the boss and drink wine in the office.
 
2013-01-07 01:38:45 PM
"Cultural fit" is just a rebranding of the old corporate Airport Test, which in turn was a rebranding of something else back in the day. You can phrase it however you want, but ultimately it comes down to whether you, as a hiring manager, think you could tolerate a few days stuck in an airport with the candidate during a winter storm. Cultural fit is really the same thing.. would you have a beer with them?  Are they interesting? Do you think you could put up with them during any particularly stressful situation?  It's a gut check.

Most recruiters and HR people you'll talk to during a phone screen are recent college grads who don't have a clue about what the company actually does. They are reading a script, they are basically living keyword/content filters, they are underpaid, and they are mostly looking to check boxes and/or determine whether you are a douchebag before deciding whether to forward you to a hiring manager for a real interview. These days they're also usually the so-called Millennials - if you're a recent college grad who can't get a job because the man is keeping you down, it's probably one of your underpaid peers who was lucky enough to get a job that just rejected your resume.

I'm a manager in a large company and, when evaluating who I want to hire, value "cultural fit" as a criteria for many of the same reasons that have been mentioned before.  Why? Namely:

1) I have resumes for 5-10 other "qualified" candidates. Meeting the minimum qualifications is the baseline for whether we speak at all.  How you present your skills and qualifications is important.  How you appear to think about problems and your motivation/energy is also important. Skills get you in the door. Validating skills determines whether it's worth talking to you more. Lying about skills gets you booted from the interview.

2) I don't want to spend the better part of my working life with a competent yet irritating douchebag.

3) There is no "company loyalty" anymore but that doesn't mean that loyalty is dead. I may not feel loyal to any particular company, but I feel *very* loyal to my coworkers and will look out for my team.  In fact, I often hire or get hired by a member of the same 30 or so person peer group as we all slowly cycle through various jobs at companies over a period of years.   When I look at a candidate I can't help feeling a little tribal about it.  Is the person someone I could bond with over time, or is there something that just doesn't seem right?  I'm still good friends with the person who interviewed me for my first job, and the same can be said for many of the people I've hired over the years. Because we seem to care about these things, yes, it's a diverse group of professional friends with regard to gender, race, age, and culture. It's less about fitting in on the surface and more about consistently not being a total dick.

Reflecting on that, to me "fit" is a bit of a misnomer as it suggests there are set criteria that someone can "fit" into or not.  For me it's more of a gut check and a determinant of whether someone has anything to bring to the table at both a personal and professional level.

In sum, if I don't like you why should I hire you?  You truly *can't* do the job, even if you have the appropriate skills, if you are incapable of getting along with your team.
 
2013-01-07 01:44:11 PM

gadian: I've found the best work places are genuinely the most diverse. This means no one "cultural fit" for a company. You have curmudgeons, air heads, frat boys, nerds, dweebs, etc. all piled into one room


What about the sportos, the motorheads, geeks, sluts, bloods, wastoids, dweebies, and dickheads?

3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-01-07 01:49:03 PM
Assembling a team that works together well (not parties together) is VERY important, and personalities, approaches, and problem-solving is a very important part of that. The basics of HR weeding through resumes is listing who has the minimum skills - but trying to evaluate whether a person is a good fit with your existing team is a very fuzzy and unscientific process that can yield disasterous results when mistakes are made. I hired a guy who looked great on paper but was a catastrophic team-spirit killer the whole time he worked for me and I'll always use that as a lesson for subsequent interviews.
 
2013-01-07 02:07:47 PM

Great Janitor: at the end of the day, HR is calling the shots in the company, unless it's a very small company and the HR department is one person no one likes.


top5s.net
 
2013-01-07 02:17:02 PM
Fartiste: 3) There is no "company loyalty" anymore but that doesn't mean that loyalty is dead. I may not feel loyal to any particular company, but I feel *very* loyal to my coworkers and will look out for my team. In fact, I often hire or get hired by a member of the same 30 or so person peer group as we all slowly cycle through various jobs at companies over a period of years. When I look at a candidate I can't help feeling a little tribal about it. Is the person someone I could bond with over time, or is there something that just doesn't seem right? I'm still good friends with the person who interviewed me for my first job, and the same can be said for many of the people I've hired over the years. Because we seem to care about these things, yes, it's a diverse group of professional friends with regard to gender, race, age, and culture. It's less about fitting in on the surface and more about consistently not being a total dick.

I support this statement wholeheartedly. For people new in the workforce, or those who may be looking for different work in the near future, this is a good thing to remember. Cultivate your network of people with whom you have a good working relationship, it will serve you well your whole career. To me a good working relationship means someone I get along with, can trust reasonably well, and someone who can be relied on to do quality work. I expect they want the same out of me.

When I went to look for a new job, the first thing I did was reach out to about a dozen people fell into this category who were at other companies, either because I knew them through a partnership or because they had moved on from the place where we both worked. This led to a few interviews and eventually to a new job at a place where I've been very happy because I like the work I'm doing and because I like the people I work with.
 
2013-01-07 02:26:06 PM

RickyWilliams'sBong:

Millennial here. This pretty much sums it up. I'm okay with making a little less money if it's a more rewarding job. May or may not shake out that way here, but at least there's the potential.

I don't really care about "cultural fit". I'm assuming companies define it in a very narrow way -- essentially looking for little drones to handle Yes Man roles. If I'm interviewing someone, I usually try to get someone with a bit of a different perspective than me and others in the office. It's generally worked out well, although obviously with a diverse set opinions comes the occasional confrontation. Organizations -- companies, agencies, whatever -- tend to become risk-averse and live in bubbles. Bringing in people who aren't "cultural fits" can be a nice kick in the ass for them, IMO.


Well, I'm sure you'd be right about some places just looking for drones, but that's not what "cultural fit" means. It basically means finding people who can get the job done who are jerkoffs. It's even better if they are personable and get along with everyone, but really as long as they're not someone people hate to be around it's all good. You're right that bringing in diverse people who have a difference of opinion is a good thing for a company, but NOT if the person expresses that difference of opinion like a jerkoff which will alienate them and cause a team to not function well.

I think a good litmus test might be: If the candidate has a different political position from the interviewer, can they still engage in a thoughtful, intelligent debate over the pros and cons of each position?

You don't have to all be a hive mind, but you need to be able to get along even though you have differences.
 
2013-01-07 02:35:11 PM

poot_rootbeer: Pennsylvania Dutch Oven: In a well defined and designed hiring methodology, "cultural fit" shouldn't make up more than 10 percent of a candidate's score.

Attempting to measure a candidate's suitability for a position quantitatively guarantees one of two outcomes:
1. qualified people are passed over, or inappropriate candidates hired, because there are intangible factors not accounted for in the scoring system;
2. hiring managers fudge the evaluation numbers enough to achieve the hiring decision they want in their gut.

If anything, and like everything in HR, that kind of hiring methodology's benefit is that the company ends up with a paper trail that makes them seem unbiased if there's a lawsuit.


You obviously have never hired in a large organization. I work in the public sector, and as a hiring manager, I don't even get to see the candidates until the third round of interviews. Regardless of the methodology used to hire people, when I ask the HR Coord for a SITREP on the latest hiring process, I'm going to get it in a quantitative format. As a hiring manager, if you can't bring out intangible qualities through well chosen questions, good follow-up, and at least SOME intuition, then you shouldn't be earning the extra $20K a year.
 
2013-01-07 02:35:47 PM
Gee, what happened to just ignoring your resume? Ah the good old days.
 
2013-01-07 02:40:43 PM

groppet: He wrote up a guy last year for wearing a hat inside, just as he walked in from the rain.


Hey, I found a picture of that employee!

www.comedycouch.com
 
2013-01-07 02:47:47 PM
Something else.. consider that you will spend most of your waking adult life at work. Unlike the past, people don't retire after 20 years of service anymore and (especially the current and future generation) are more likely to work for 40-50 years.  That's optimistic - most of us will probably drop dead before we can retire, and those of us who do get to retire will be 1) unusually lucky and 2) considered "useless" old people by everyone else. Given the increased hours we have to work, most of the time spent outside of work is for sleeping and minimal family interaction. Sad as it is, work really has become life so make the best of it by working with people you like, even if you aren't doing a job you particularly care for.

Shouldn't we spend more time thinking about how to make the workplace tolerable, if not enjoyable?  There aren't many things that low to mid level employees can control *except* by making good decisions (or at least suggestions) about who to hire. Think of "cultural fit" hiring decisions as one way to ensure that, at a minimum, you will be able to spend the majority of your life working with people you get along with. Yes, that's a hell of a lot more important than "qualifications" that indicate good little worker bees, unless you're in a high enough position to view employees as entries on a balance sheet.
 
2013-01-07 03:03:56 PM

RickyWilliams'sBong: I don't really care about "cultural fit". I'm assuming companies define it in a very narrow way -- essentially looking for little drones to handle Yes Man roles. If I'm interviewing someone, I usually try to get someone with a bit of a different perspective than me and others in the office. It's generally worked out well, although obviously with a diverse set opinions comes the occasional confrontation. Organizations -- companies, agencies, whatever -- tend to become risk-averse and live in bubbles. Bringing in people who aren't "cultural fits" can be a nice kick in the ass for them, IMO.


Your assumption would be false. Some companies, namely large, hierarchical multinationals do indeed want employees that are 'drones'. Other companies have a work hard\play hard startup culture. Other companies have a 'family\clan' culture. Some companies are very competitive, even internally, and have a cutthroat culture. There are very distinctive cultures, usually associated with different phases of a companies growth, but also dictated by the companies market, strategy, and leadership. It is critical to hire people who understand the culture.

Here is my favorite book on corporate culture.

Extremely useful and prescriptive
 
2013-01-07 03:35:18 PM

Cornelius Dribble: Dream on. As Baby Boomers retire, many of those high-paying jobs are being phased out. As the United States continues to descend to third-world status, income inequality will continue to grow, and for more and more educated adults temp work will be the norm rather than the exception.


Then apply Right to Work for work arrangements. That is you are not required to go through a staffing agency nor are you required to be a second-class contractor/temp/contingent/casual worker to accept or continue working for a company. No different than the Right to Work law as currently applied - except that it pits employer paid staffing agencies against worker-paid labor unions.

/wouldn't mind seeing the term forced-temp be used to describe states that don't enact this kind of law
 
2013-01-07 03:47:20 PM

Fartiste: Shouldn't we spend more time thinking about how to make the workplace tolerable, if not enjoyable? There aren't many things that low to mid level employees can control *except* by making good decisions (or at least suggestions) about who to hire. Think of "cultural fit" hiring decisions as one way to ensure that, at a minimum, you will be able to spend the majority of your life working with people you get along with. Yes, that's a hell of a lot more important than "qualifications" that indicate good little worker bees, unless you're in a high enough position to view employees as entries on a balance sheet.


SO MUCH THIS.


I've worked for a company that understood this(a fairly large East Coast media conglomerate) and grew up around another(a certain cash register company) that took morale to the extreme by building out a not-so-small part of the city for their employees. In either case, either company looked favorably on the "a happy employee is a productive one". That's not something you will get with a staffing agency, temporary assignment or a consultancy.
 
2013-01-07 03:54:15 PM

Fano: zedster: FTFA:""These trends are being driven by millennials because they care about culture," says Dan Schawbel, author of Me: 2.0. "Research shows that millennials typically stay at a job for about two years-and they have different priorities. They'd rather have meaningful work over more pay, or work for a company that gives back or cares about the environment. They want a culture that's less hierarchical, more flexible, and more understanding of difference, because millennials are the most diverse generation."

NO NO NO NO NO NO

WWII Gen: Hey I'll get a job and work at it for 20+ yrs, return you'll give me benefits like a pension
Business: Okay

Baby Boomers: I'd like what my parents had
Business: nope you'll have a 401K that we will raid and no job security

Millennials: If I'm not going to be making great money and have no job security I'd rather work someplace I like and move on when I burn out
Business: Why do you have no loyalty? come back?

If I had the choice between culture or a place that actually took care of it's employees without screwing them over I would take the security. Having fallen into IT I have to say the contractor system is not going to inspire me to do anything less then the bare minimum, what incentive do I have? I have no profit share, no chance of getting hired on (always a false carrot they dangle), and very little security. At best Millennials are just waiting for the huge delayed wave of Baby Boomer to retire and open up the job market for them, at worst you are looking at generation that will have far less opportunity and quality of life then their parents.

Nail on the head. As a gen x member who thinks millenials expect to be rewarded before paying their dues, I realize they are hep to the realization that you don't get rewarded for paying your dues anymore anyway. Company loyalty is a two way street, any every company that asks why they have no loyalty should be asking what they've done to earn loyalty in the last 30 years.



They don't do anything to earn our loyalty; we're supposed to be thankful we have a job at all!

such bullsh*t.

i have a very high standard of excellence with what i do and the expectations i have for myself are high and I want to work for a place that also has high standards of excellence. is that too much to ask? when i feel i've been lied to by the hiring manager and been sold a bill of goods simply because they need another person to work the station, i feel deceived and i stop giving a f*ck. i'm like "goddamnit not this sh*t AGAIN." if they don't give a f*ck about the workplace and the employees, I feel like an idiot for caring, too. am i wrong to have high expectations of the places i want to work? probably. i also like rambling, run-on sentences and getting caught in the rain.
 
2013-01-07 04:08:47 PM

Fartiste: Unlike the past, people don't retire after 20 years of service anymore and (especially the current and future generation) are more likely to work for 40-50 years.


Wat. You didn't inherit your father's successful gyro stand, the biggest in all Athens, as you'd planned. Is that it?
 
2013-01-07 04:09:56 PM

HotIgneous Intruder: I just finished a seven-week full-time temp gig loading trucks in a distribution center for a small but well-known company in Virginia. Wages straight out of 1990, no benefits, passive-aggressive nepotistic rednecks in middle management who are married to each other, their kids "working" for some Christmas money (actually just standing around while the rest of us were nice to them), a management culture that's more interested in sustaining the cash cow than efficient operations.


You could have asked me, I'd have told you to stay the hell away from Amazon.
 
2013-01-07 04:16:06 PM

Atomic Spunk: falcon176: loyalty is dead don't give employers 2 weeks notice, they won't give you 2 hours

Are you kidding? For anyone who's ever given their employer a 2 week notice, that may end up being the best 2 weeks that you will ever have on the job. You can come in late. You can leave early. You can take an extra long lunch. You can work at half speed, or not even work at all. Nobody's going to say shiat about it because you have the ultimate comeback: "So, what are you going to do? Fire me? Ha ha ha ha!". Then for two weeks of barely showing up, they give you a check as you walk out the door. WINNAR!


I had a boss who actually did threaten to let me go: "you know, we don't have to keep you on for the two weeks" to which I said "Go ahead and terminate me, I could use the vacation."

/kept me on until the end
//he was an asshole
///which was why I found a new job anyway.
 
2013-01-07 06:16:24 PM

Fark Rye For Many Whores: Fartiste: Unlike the past, people don't retire after 20 years of service anymore and (especially the current and future generation) are more likely to work for 40-50 years.

Wat. You didn't inherit your father's successful gyro stand, the biggest in all Athens, as you'd planned. Is that it?



I don't get the reference (if there is one) but I chuckled a bit anyway.  It does make me think of three things, however.

1) The concept of a 40 hour work week, and really permanent employment at a company, only came about fairly recently.  At the start of industrialization our ancestors worked much longer hours than we do now and had really poor living conditions.  There was no shortage of work to be done, unlike today, and people worked a lot harder than we do. We're on a swing back towards longer and shiattier working conditions. Work-life balance is a luxury, and retirement is something of a luxury as well.

2) I *wish* my family actually had something I could inherit. Unfortunately, positive-value inheritance and estates are largely a thing of the past for middle class families. Only the very rich get to leave anything behind, most of the rest of us would either inherit debt (if laws didn't protect against that) or come up with next to nothing after taxes hit.

3) I also wish my family hadn't sold its farm and farmland. For one thing the land is worth a lot more money than it sold for.  For another, it was beautiful land and how houses a cookie cutter subdivision (hate). In hindsight I think farming the land would have been more fulfilling than corporate work. Unfortunately, the State also decided that the land was too valuable for a small subsistence farmer to own, even though the family had owned it for the better part of 200 years. Keep in mind, you don't own any land in the US unless your State has fair property laws - in most cases, you're basically on a long-term lease and the landlord can kick you out anytime it wants by jacking up tax rates to ridiculous levels.  Sadly, it's the same thing that happens to a lot of retirees -- old people don't necessarily sell their homes to downsize but often do so because they can no longer afford the high property taxes.

Back to company hiring practices, my most significant point should be that it's a way to exert what little control you actually have on making your work life better. It's a good way to ensure that you don't have to work with dicks, and that's worth something in an uncaring, impersonal system where the odds are already stacked against you. Few of us will ever exert enough influence to change how the corporate world works, but we should do what we can to make things better for ourselves and our qualified friends.
 
2013-01-07 06:19:48 PM

Nem Wan: If you hate the interview, you'd probably hate working there, so consider yourself saved from a big mistake.


But in a big company they have different people giving different kinds of interviews. I was interviewed for Nalco once by this really biatchy woman who asked all manner of retarded questions, none of them to do with the job. At one point I actually showed by displeasure with her because I was thinking I'd hate working here. My labmate interviewed for the same company with some guy who asked him technical and job-relevant questions only and he got the job. Well, I also didn't want to live in Naperville, IL.
 
2013-01-07 06:22:52 PM

HempHead: The company picks the plan administrator and the "investments" you are allowed to invest your money in.


Huh? I got to pick between TIAA Cref or Fidelity and both of those companies have all sorts of different funds to invest in. I can divide up the contributions however I like and change them when I want to change them. I thought they all worked like that.
 
2013-01-07 06:36:21 PM

Yoyo: Can someone tell me what it means when at the end of a telephone interview with a company's vice-president, he says the next step is to get me out for a site visit to their facility, and then in a few days the HR middlemen call to say the company isn't interested in me?

/I'm available immediately if you're looking for an engineer.


It means you'd better take a look at your credit report or maybe do a background check on yourself to see if there are any surprises. Sometimes these things have mistakes. There are people who's background checks turn up felonies all because someone else had a similar name or something like that.
 
2013-01-07 06:40:59 PM

Fartiste: Fark Rye For Many Whores: Fartiste: Unlike the past, people don't retire after 20 years of service anymore and (especially the current and future generation) are more likely to work for 40-50 years.

Wat. You didn't inherit your father's successful gyro stand, the biggest in all Athens, as you'd planned. Is that it?


I don't get the reference (if there is one) but I chuckled a bit anyway.


Greece may have to stretch the SS retirement age to make ends meet, was the joke.
 
2013-01-07 06:46:01 PM
It could also mean that there were multiple candidates lined up and that you got into the game later than someone else. Even if you're a strong candidate, it's not unheard of for companies to fill positions without interviewing everyone. This is often the case when there's a particularly strong, well-known, or inexpensive candidate.

It could also mean that they had to cancel the position due to budget issues. Sometimes companies do layoffs by cancelling open job reqs instead of canning people.  That's why you often don't see people get backfilled after someone quits, it basically saves them the hassle of having to pay to lay the same person off in a month.

As stated, it could also mean that other adverse information popped up. One of your references might not have checked out, your resume might have landed on the desk of the guy you used to bully in middle school, or you could have an unknown credit/criminal record.  It's unusual for job candidates to go through credit / background checks until offered a job due to the cost of the investigation.
 
2013-01-07 08:15:08 PM

stiletto_the_wise: My interviews are pretty straightforward. Ask questions with one right answer and many wrong ones, and count how many right answers they give. I'm concerned only with competence, because you at least have a hope of measuring competence and using it to objectively compare candidates. I don't care if you like golf or play poker on weekends. Are you smart and can you get shiat done? Those are the only relevant measurements.


Also: You can fire the guy if he's a totally wrong fit and pisses off everyone else; you'll usually know within a week or two and you can tell them to gtfo and not come back. You probably only wasted as much time on training as on initially interviewing. If he's a sneaky bastard who keeps up the good behavior for a while... but starts drinking again after six months and farks up constantly, or turns into a nasty gossip, or whatever, hopefully he's done a few useful things before you fire him. (Unless you work in Montana, I guess.)

I don't know why so many managers would rather have dead weight on their payroll than make the effort of finding someone good.
 
2013-01-07 09:19:53 PM

jigger: HempHead: The company picks the plan administrator and the "investments" you are allowed to invest your money in.

Huh? I got to pick between TIAA Cref or Fidelity and both of those companies have all sorts of different funds to invest in. I can divide up the contributions however I like and change them when I want to change them. I thought they all worked like that.


I've never seen anything like that. Every one I have seen was as above: company picks the financial institution, who offer a tiny menu of (less than 10) crappy investment options. You're better off putting your money in a sock if not for the pre-tax nature of it.
 
2013-01-07 09:26:50 PM

jigger: [The VP saying come for a site tour and the HR stooges saying "no thanks" 4 days later] means you'd better take a look at your credit report or maybe do a background check on yourself to see if there are any surprises. Sometimes these things have mistakes. There are people who's background checks turn up felonies all because someone else had a similar name or something like that.


My credit rating is 798 and I've got a government security clearance. WTF?
 
2013-01-07 11:54:51 PM

Yoyo: jigger: [The VP saying come for a site tour and the HR stooges saying "no thanks" 4 days later] means you'd better take a look at your credit report or maybe do a background check on yourself to see if there are any surprises. Sometimes these things have mistakes. There are people who's background checks turn up felonies all because someone else had a similar name or something like that.

My credit rating is 798 and I've got a government security clearance. WTF?


Oh...then you're just too GOOD, they don't have anything they can use to hold over your head later.
 
2013-01-08 01:08:51 AM

edmo: Is that how they're describing nepotism now?


Nope. This basically amounts to one of two things.

In the best case scenario, it means that no one at that place of employment wants to work with you. Possibly because you said or did something that seriously rubbed someone the wrong way. Possibly because you stink like foul ass. Or maybe that asshole at the last company you worked at has a best friend here who has heard of you. Whatever it is, the team wants nothing to do with you.

In the worst case scenario, it is going to be a thin cover for racism, sexism, or other form of discrimination.

END COMMUNICATION
 
2013-01-08 08:38:05 AM
Fartiste: ...  It's unusual for job candidates to go through credit / background checks until offered a job due to the cost of the investigation.

It's also illegal to do a credit check without first obtaining written permission.
 
2013-01-08 12:22:21 PM

ReverendJasen: The moment an interviewer starts asking me about hobbies, vacations, and movie/musical preferences instead of why I'm qualified to do the job, I know the job is bullshiat.
Interviews go both ways, HR goons.


Ironically, HRs and recruiters tell you not to put that shiat on your resume.
 
Displayed 379 of 379 comments

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report