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(NYPost)   For The Children: NYC erases 'unsatisfactory' ratings of lousy teachers, if they agree to quit. Fark: Removing the negative rating helps them land jobs in other schools   ( nypost.com) divider line
    More: Fail, United Federation of Teachers, Department of Education, teachers  
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3070 clicks; posted to Main » on 06 Jan 2013 at 1:36 PM (4 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-06 10:33:02 AM  
5 votes:
The teacher rating system is intrinsically flawed. Teachers who tend to get "unsatisfactory" ratings are also the teachers who work with children from poorly-served schools or have special needs or have a lot of students who are new immigrants. The teachers who get satisfactory ratings tend to work with wealthier-better off students who all speak English.
2013-01-06 01:38:47 PM  
4 votes:

RexTalionis: The teacher rating system is intrinsically flawed. Teachers who tend to get "unsatisfactory" ratings are also the teachers who work with children from poorly-served schools or have special needs or have a lot of students who are new immigrants. The teachers who get satisfactory ratings tend to work with wealthier-better off students who all speak English.


This.

The current climate of hunting down "bad" teachers is part of the problem. The focus should be in teacher training and improving teacher performance. We need teacher-positive solutions.
2013-01-06 11:00:55 AM  
3 votes:
As a matter of practice in the private sector, most employers give neutral ratings.  HR will generally only say that person X worked for the company between such and such dates.

Even IF someone gets an unsatisfactory rating, does that mean they should be unemployable?  They should get another opportunity to prove themselves without having to wear the scarlet letter.

Common sense subs.
2013-01-06 10:55:37 AM  
3 votes:
In the 2010-11 school year, the DOE charged 78 teachers with incompetence, it says. Hearing officers agreed to terminate 18 after long administrative trials...  Last year, the DOE charged 88 teachers with incompetence. It won just 11 dismissal cases...
 I'm okay with the DOE wiping out unproven "unsatisfactory" allegations and giving a neutral rating, if they're really this bad at  actually proving that a teacher is incompetent.
2013-01-06 02:27:47 PM  
2 votes:

Brick-House: This...


Plus this...


Equal this...


What is that graph meant to represent?
2013-01-06 01:49:37 PM  
2 votes:
Something that isn't talked about enough...

When you have a system in place that requires a trained, accredited adult supervisor for every 25 children across America, but you want to compensate them not significantly different from a normal blue-collar job, you're going to have to settle for some warm bodies here and there. And it doesn't matter what you do so long as this is true. There will be a "turkey" in every hallway.

George Carlin explains why it will never change in this country.

/Education is still way better than it was merely 1 lifetime ago.
2013-01-06 05:36:32 PM  
1 vote:

generallyso: And while everyone is focusing on rating teachers, quality of education continues to decline...


Look, when I went to school (in the70's) there was a set curriculum. You passed or you failed.At some point we decided that every child deserved an equal outcome, regardless of their intellect or ability. We have dumbed down our system to the point where over half of the kids are in AG clases. Not to meFor Profit colleges that crank out Teachers, Engineers and other professional degrees who are absolutely not prepared or qualifed for their chosen profession.
2013-01-06 03:35:29 PM  
1 vote:
L

Wulfman: 8Fingers: Make your point better?

I made my point quite specific. Don't take it out on me if you are unable to comprehend simple meaning of someones elses statements.


Actually, you made a shiatty and irrelevant point. I would be enjoying it if it were funny, but it's not, so it's really got no value here. That's the point I'm making to you.


I don't know your issue is. I made a comment regarding the gender specific language of the statements that were used in the article. You decided to bring in the gender ratio of male/female teachers. That was not what my point was about. My point was very clear.
I found it odd that they would use such language. So I made a comment about it. It doesn't matter what you think as to whether or not it is relevant. And given your obvious inability to comprend. Need to justify yourself and just plain grumpy atttitude. Your opinion is of little value to me.
2013-01-06 03:17:32 PM  
1 vote:

Vangor: liam76: I don't think NYC rates teachers on student scores. If they did it would be much easier to normalize their performance.

This article seems to suggest math and reading exam scores are used in teacher evaluations primarily in NYC.


They are recorded, but unless something has changed they are not used in evals.


Vangor: However, correcting achievement scores is difficult due to magnifying influence of achievement predictors alongside each other in the classroom and the need to track individual student progress in a number of contexts while having relatively new assessments.

What is aggravating is such systems are meant to simplify teacher evaluation, but the reality is the systems are non-intuitive, expensive, sap time away from instruction, and generally misunderstood regarding the validity of the measures to the point of creating additional hassle for all involved in education.


What achievement predictors do you need to look at? You look at incoming and out going scores and rate teachers against other teachers with similiar incoming scores.

I am not sure how it being intuitive or not is a good or bad thing.

They aren't expensive (as it is many places like NYC already track them.

They take no time from instruction.

And I see no "hassle" except for teachers who are worse than their peers at teaching.


This is not easier. Administrative and peer review is far easier; we simply need enough reviews to make a proper determination after several years.

It isn't "easier" as shown by the article in question. It is next to impossible to remove bad teachers because those reviews are so subjective. Plus as shown by the article you linked many of those teachers simply aren't performing.
2013-01-06 02:24:13 PM  
1 vote:

Bontesla: Dafatone: RexTalionis: The teacher rating system is intrinsically flawed. Teachers who tend to get "unsatisfactory" ratings are also the teachers who work with children from poorly-served schools or have special needs or have a lot of students who are new immigrants. The teachers who get satisfactory ratings tend to work with wealthier-better off students who all speak English.

This.

The current climate of hunting down "bad" teachers is part of the problem. The focus should be in teacher training and improving teacher performance. We need teacher-positive solutions.

And what sort of training do you propose for teachers refusing to teach?


What ever it is that Finland is doing.
2013-01-06 02:23:35 PM  
1 vote:
America does NOT have an education problem. America has a poverty problem.... when you compare our scores to those of other countries and control for poverty we do very well.
2013-01-06 02:23:07 PM  
1 vote:

Dafatone: Bontesla: Dafatone: RexTalionis: The teacher rating system is intrinsically flawed. Teachers who tend to get "unsatisfactory" ratings are also the teachers who work with children from poorly-served schools or have special needs or have a lot of students who are new immigrants. The teachers who get satisfactory ratings tend to work with wealthier-better off students who all speak English.

This.

The current climate of hunting down "bad" teachers is part of the problem. The focus should be in teacher training and improving teacher performance. We need teacher-positive solutions.

And what sort of training do you propose for teachers refusing to teach?

Is that something that happens more than one in a thousand times?


There does seem to be a strong correlation between conservative thought and attendance at schools where all the teachers are terrible assholes who never taught the kids anything. Food for thought.
2013-01-06 02:19:54 PM  
1 vote:

Bontesla: Dafatone: RexTalionis: The teacher rating system is intrinsically flawed. Teachers who tend to get "unsatisfactory" ratings are also the teachers who work with children from poorly-served schools or have special needs or have a lot of students who are new immigrants. The teachers who get satisfactory ratings tend to work with wealthier-better off students who all speak English.

This.

The current climate of hunting down "bad" teachers is part of the problem. The focus should be in teacher training and improving teacher performance. We need teacher-positive solutions.

And what sort of training do you propose for teachers refusing to teach?


Is that something that happens more than one in a thousand times?
2013-01-06 02:19:17 PM  
1 vote:

Snotnose: I had a couple bad teachers grades K-12


A couple of bad teachers in 13 years of school? Out of, what, like 3 dozen teachers?

Holy shiat, that is damn near godlike in the ratio of good employees to bad compared to nearly everywhere else that exists. Your school system must be doing almost everything right. The administration should teach seminars.
2013-01-06 02:18:27 PM  
1 vote:

RexTalionis: The teacher rating system is intrinsically flawed. Teachers who tend to get "unsatisfactory" ratings are also the teachers who work with children from poorly-served schools or have special needs or have a lot of students who are new immigrants. The teachers who get satisfactory ratings tend to work with wealthier-better off students who all speak English.


true that. a music or art teacher? whee!, fun, easy to get good ratings. english, history, math? honors class is one thing. the bulk of the students hate being there. they will rip the teacher because they can. really piss poor set up NY has going on. those teachers are trying to make a living. it's farking ridiculous. the same shiat wouldn't fly in other professions.
2013-01-06 02:14:50 PM  
1 vote:

8Fingers: The department will provide, upon request, a neutral letter documenting her employment with the DOE and will convert her U ratings to S ratings in the DOE computer system."

It adds, "Thus if she were to seek employment outside the DOE, her computer employment records would show only 'satisfactory'

What's with the gender specific crap? Even I know that in business, when stating policy you keep it gender-neutral. Maybe these powers that be are as much a part of the problem and anyone else.


blogs.courant.com
source
2013-01-06 01:56:48 PM  
1 vote:
Well, good luck to anyone trying to get hired again after teaching in NYC, unless they have atomic-glow reviews on their record.
2013-01-06 01:55:45 PM  
1 vote:
Hey, are we allowed to give parents an 'unsatisfactory' rating when their gun-toting, drug-addled, disrespectful, unintelligent crotch-fruit don't show up to school? Oh, no, I forgot, you're not allowed to tell a scumbag that they're a scumbag and their kids are just little scumbags. Wouldn't be PC. Let's just blame the teachers. Works easier.
2013-01-06 01:54:51 PM  
1 vote:

RexTalionis: The teacher rating system is intrinsically flawed. Teachers who tend to get "unsatisfactory" ratings are also the teachers who work with children from poorly-served schools or have special needs or have a lot of students who are new immigrants. The teachers who get satisfactory ratings tend to work with wealthier-better off students who all speak English.


This is 100% accurate.

Also - many times bad teachers become administrators. Most bad administrators rarely get bad ratings because the school hopes another school will come in and hire them; relieving them of a long term contract and getting rid of a problem. Of course history tends to repeat itself.
2013-01-06 01:53:48 PM  
1 vote:
Hopefully if you earn an unsatisfactory rating at a job, you learn some constructive lessons from that that you can apply at your next job.

I've been fired from exactly one job in my life over 25-ish years. Biggest lesson learned: how to recognize when you're a poor fit for the job, and the work environment, and to GTFO before it gets really bad.
2013-01-06 01:53:30 PM  
1 vote:
It also depends which aspect of their evaluation was deemed unsatisfactory. You can have teachers who have excellent content knowledge, but who struggle to teach in certain school environments because their classroom management needs honing. Those teachers might do better in a different school with different supports.

Personally, my best teaching has happened in environments where there are opportunities to collaborate, to do cross curricular planning, and in which the supervisors allow us to have some freedom to try out new ideas.
2013-01-06 01:53:28 PM  
1 vote:

RexTalionis: The teacher rating system is intrinsically flawed. Teachers who tend to get "unsatisfactory" ratings are also the teachers who work with children from poorly-served schools or have special needs or have a lot of students who are new immigrants. The teachers who get satisfactory ratings tend to work with wealthier-better off students who all speak English.


Cannot speak for the NYC teacher effectiveness assessments, but this is generally accounted for depending on the metric... somewhat. For instance, districts/states which use standardized test achievement as part of the metric (all of the ones I have seen, which is quite a few but there are many) provide automatic point correction based on low income, ESOL, and ESE students in the classroom. There are still numerous other flaws in those systems no matter how accurate the point correction is, and I do not mean to say what you mention is a non-issue, but I frequently hear this as the first and only complaint.
2013-01-06 01:52:44 PM  
1 vote:
Aside from the problems with the rating system (which are pretty big and important), and the problems with rating teachers in general, I can kinda see how this makes sense.

When it comes time to make cuts many K-12 schools give preference to teachers based on seniority, regardless of performance. That makes it harder for new teachers to stay, even if they're great. If unsat teachers are booted out regardless of the time they spent in their position, that effectively resets them in the job market. They have to compete again based only their accomplishments and experience, and cannot rely on seniority.

A neutral review won't hurt the truly poor teachers, but it also won't hurt the great teachers that were booted because of a flawed rating system (like that math teacher with really high performing high school seniors who all did well on the AP exams, but were too excited for summer/college to do well on the state exams).
2013-01-06 01:48:46 PM  
1 vote:
Unsatisfactory ratings followed teachers around? And here I thought all this time that "This is going on your permanent record" was just an idle threat.
2013-01-06 01:47:20 PM  
1 vote:
Face it, some people can't teach.  Or are too lazy to care.  Why not weed these incompetents out?

I had a couple bad teachers grades K-12, and 2 really horrible college profs.  These people had no business inside a classroom.
2013-01-06 01:39:41 PM  
1 vote:
I have a better idea. Lets just give them guns and see how the problem works itself out.
 
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