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(AZ Family)   Never threaten suicide in front of the Surprise police   (azfamily.com) divider line 109
    More: Obvious, suicides  
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12424 clicks; posted to Main » on 06 Jan 2013 at 3:04 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-05 11:37:10 PM
That's why the call the city , SURPRISE.
 
2013-01-05 11:55:38 PM

Nothing To See Here: That's why the call the city , SURPRISE.


Guess we know where they shot him
 
2013-01-06 12:09:58 AM
Well, at least he's not dead.

Yet.
 
2013-01-06 12:28:01 AM
If we would just shoot all the people who threaten suicide non-fatally, eventually people would stop using it as a cry for attention.

"Oh, woe is me. I'm going to shoot myself!"

"No you're no. Illuminate him."
 
2013-01-06 03:14:42 AM
Fine. I'll do it.
dennisjudd.com
 
2013-01-06 03:14:49 AM
i1190.photobucket.com

Lets see if this works...
 
2013-01-06 03:14:54 AM
The Surprise Police, they live inside of my head. The Surprise Police, they'll shoot a guy dead.
 
2013-01-06 03:16:07 AM
Crack suicide squad! Attack!
 
2013-01-06 03:16:47 AM
So they kinda gave him what he wanted?

/sounds like a bad gift
//SURPRISE!
 
2013-01-06 03:17:34 AM
This is why headlines from there have a special place in my heart. You can always work a Surprise! joke in there...
 
2013-01-06 03:17:38 AM
That'll learn him.
 
2013-01-06 03:18:27 AM

Ed Grubermann: Fine. I'll do it.


Almost forgot where that was from

/damn, Al needs to get back to movies again
 
2013-01-06 03:19:01 AM
pics4.city-data.com
 
2013-01-06 03:19:35 AM
Suprise is the new Quakertown. HaHA!
 
HBK
2013-01-06 03:29:25 AM
This is one of those "you can't quit, you're fired!" type situations
 
2013-01-06 03:29:32 AM

No Time To Explain: Ed Grubermann: Fine. I'll do it.

Almost forgot where that was from

/damn, Al needs to get back to movies again


What -is- it from? Sincerely curious.
 
2013-01-06 03:32:14 AM

GloomCookie613: No Time To Explain: Ed Grubermann: Fine. I'll do it.

Almost forgot where that was from

/damn, Al needs to get back to movies again

What -is- it from? Sincerely curious.


UHF by Weird Al.
 
2013-01-06 03:32:48 AM
FTFA: Officers negotiated with the man for a period of time, and then attempted to use a less lethal device to stop the man from hurting himself.

BUT BUT BUT..THE FARK ARMCHAIR POLICE BRIGADE TELLS ME THAT THIS NEVER FAILS, AND ALL REAL COPS(TM) SHOULD DO IT! HOW COULD THIS BE?!?

Also, way to go. Do you have to pay by the word for space there, Mister Journalist. I'd be nice to know why they shot him. Did he point the gun at a cop?

www.funnydictionary.com

Guess he ATTEMPTED suicide by cop, at any rate.
 
2013-01-06 03:39:29 AM
Why is it any concern of the government if anyone wants to end their life?

/Jack Kevorkian - right message, wrong messenger (Ross Perot, as well).
 
2013-01-06 03:39:58 AM
Server farked
 
2013-01-06 03:41:14 AM

crabsno termites: Why is it any concern of the government if anyone wants to end their life?


Because someone who thinks that there's no one in the world who can solve his emotional problems is not the same as someone who's wanting to die with dignity and end the pain from a terminal disease from which there is no hope of a quality life or recovery.

One is a mental illness. The other is basic dignity.
 
2013-01-06 03:42:51 AM
looks like a up scale neighborhood and i bet he used a lot of verbs too
 
2013-01-06 03:45:05 AM
Can we spread the word? Maybe we can educate children too.

If you're gonna kill yourself, kill yourself.

Do NOT take out a whole bunch of others who had no say in the matter.

Do NOT make the cops shoot you - as you can see it didn't exactly work in this situation and there's a very good chance he'll never be let out of custody again.

If you wanna make a cry for help, do it without the gun.

If you wanna kill yourself, just do it.
 
2013-01-06 03:46:00 AM
 
2013-01-06 03:59:48 AM

BronyMedic: crabsno termites: Why is it any concern of the government if anyone wants to end their life?

Because someone who thinks that there's no one in the world who can solve his emotional problems is not the same as someone who's wanting to die with dignity and end the pain from a terminal disease from which there is no hope of a quality life or recovery.

One is a mental illness. The other is basic dignity.


It's not quite as simple as that though.

What if one actually suffers from mental illness? (as opposed to most Farkers who claim they enjoy every minute of it).

I can't say there's no cure or even any treatment that may help, but the same could be said of any physical disease.

Should the mentally ill not be allowed to die with dignity?  Who gets to make that call? What criteria do they apply?

Okay, you're terminally ill. The doctors all agree you won't live more than 6 months and even though you will be in some great pain we're gonna have to make you ride this one out.

Oh, hi, suicidal guy? You say you can never sleep and you have tried every medication ever known to man and you still hate life? Oh, come now. You're in great health. Maybe we should lock you up so you can live another 50 years - in prison, just so you don't kill yourself.
 
2013-01-06 04:05:50 AM

Happy Hours: Can we spread the word? Maybe we can educate children too.

If you're gonna kill yourself, kill yourself.

Do NOT take out a whole bunch of others who had no say in the matter.

Do NOT make the cops shoot you - as you can see it didn't exactly work in this situation and there's a very good chance he'll never be let out of custody again.

If you wanna make a cry for help, do it without the gun.

If you wanna kill yourself, just do it.


We'd need to start by making suicide legal.

But that won't happen for all sorts of reasons (political/religious).
 
2013-01-06 04:13:10 AM
Happy Hours:
It's not quite as simple as that though.

What if one actually suffers from mental illness? (as opposed to most Farkers who claim they enjoy every minute of it).

I can't say there's no cure or even any treatment that may help, but the same could be said of any physical disease.

Should the mentally ill not be allowed to die with dignity?  Who gets to make that call? What criteria do they apply?

Okay, you're terminally ill. The doctors all agree you won't live more than 6 months and even though you will be in some great pain we're gonna have to make you ride this one out.

Oh, hi, suicidal guy? You say you can never sleep and you have tried every medication ever known to man and you still hate life? Oh, come now. You're in great health. Maybe we should lock you up so you can live another 50 years - in prison, just so you don't kill yourself.


Indeed.  People without crippling depression don't realize how much mental illness can just hurt.  There's not really anywhere you can point to, but the misery is absolute.
A very good article about Borderline Personality Disorder can be found at www.borderlinesworld.com
 
2013-01-06 04:13:28 AM
"The attempt wasn't successful, and at some point the man was shot by police."

I guess the police wanted to get back to their lunch break?
 
2013-01-06 04:25:02 AM
Guess this way if he dies at least if he has life insurance or something, his family will get that, and probably a wrongful death settlement....or he'll probably get money from the city if he lives.......guess he knew what he was doing.
 
2013-01-06 04:25:04 AM

Fark_Guy_Rob: We'd need to start by making suicide legal.

But that won't happen for all sorts of reasons (political/religious).


It already is. It's only illegal if you fail.

As said above, we need better mental health care for the despondent.

We need access to dignified euthanasia, but again smart people can already get it done but making it legal, a la Dignitas, would be better.

I've given hospice care to terminal cancer patients and the end is not pretty. The option to go out before the body finishes eating itself from the inside is preferable to many. .
 
2013-01-06 04:34:04 AM

President Merkin Muffley: Suprise is the new Quakertown. HaHA!


I guffawed.
 
2013-01-06 04:36:49 AM

jigger: Surprise! You're dead!


Ahh sweet nostalgia. I'm going to have to put on Angel Dust later.

/ different album, I know, but it's better
 
2013-01-06 04:39:12 AM
And here I was expecting cats and buttsex.
 
2013-01-06 04:48:05 AM
to some extent, the purpose of having suicide on the books as illegal is to allow the police to get the fellow to some help ideally. I'm not sure how many cases of attempted bridge diving ever make it to trial, they just get released to the supposed care of a mental health unit.
/yes, quite well aware of the weaknesses in that whole system.
//nurse
///with a goatee.
 
2013-01-06 04:53:14 AM

Happy Hours: It's not quite as simple as that though.

What if one actually suffers from mental illness? (as opposed to most Farkers who claim they enjoy every minute of it).


Semantics and a shameful false comparison with a terminal illness. Mental illness is treatable, and that treatment can result in a great quality of life for people who do comply with treatment and stay on their regiment.

Happy Hours: I can't say there's no cure or even any treatment that may help, but the same could be said of any physical disease.


img2.joyreactor.cc

Because a 16 year old girl who's boyfriend just dumped her, and a 34 year old man facing foreclosure on his house are the same thing as a person with less than six months to live and in horrid pain from cancer, and a patient facing the progression of huntingdon's chorea.

Yes. There ARE treatments. Yes, there ARE people out there who live quality lives with mental illness. People who think it's OK for the mentally ill to kill themselves are the same caliber of people who will gladly stigmatize those WITH mental illness to the point they never seek treatment because of the stigma, or exile themselves to the streets.

Happy Hours: Should the mentally ill not be allowed to die with dignity? Who gets to make that call? What criteria do they apply?


Nice skirting of the actual issue. Would allowing a mentally ill person to live with treatment cause them intractable pain and no quality of life? Yes, they should be allowed to die of dignity of a condition that will kill them. Not because the voices in their heads tell them to pull the trigger, and not because Miss Margeret thinks she should kill herself because she's a failure of a new mother.

Happy Hours: Oh, hi, suicidal guy? You say you can never sleep and you have tried every medication ever known to man and you still hate life? Oh, come now. You're in great health. Maybe we should lock you up so you can live another 50 years - in prison, just so you don't kill yourself.


A Residential Treatment institution is NOT prison.

Why stop with the mentally ill. Why not anyone who's ill and a burdon on society. For a greater people, you undestand!
upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-01-06 05:01:42 AM
Amateurs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHvWaviIXsk
 
2013-01-06 05:08:58 AM

lohphat: Fark_Guy_Rob: We'd need to start by making suicide legal.

But that won't happen for all sorts of reasons (political/religious).

It already is. It's only illegal if you fail.

As said above, we need better mental health care for the despondent.

We need access to dignified euthanasia, but again smart people can already get it done but making it legal, a la Dignitas, would be better.

I've given hospice care to terminal cancer patients and the end is not pretty. The option to go out before the body finishes eating itself from the inside is preferable to many. .


I have to disagree....

It's illegal to commit suicide.
Helping someone commit suicide is also illegal.
Attempting suicide is also illegal.
 
2013-01-06 05:11:38 AM

Fark_Guy_Rob: It's illegal to commit suicide.


Only if you do a crappy job of it.
 
2013-01-06 05:13:12 AM

BronyMedic: Semantics and a shameful false comparison with a terminal illness. Mental illness is treatable, and that treatment can result in a great quality of life for people who do comply with treatment and stay on their regiment.


But what if *I* don't *want* to be treated?
 
2013-01-06 05:14:03 AM
I wonder if the inmates in Surprise have a lot of surprise buttsecks
 
2013-01-06 05:15:45 AM

Neondistraction: Fark_Guy_Rob: It's illegal to commit suicide.

Only if you do a crappy job of it.


That's true of every law. Murder is only illegal if you do a crappy job of it. Speeding is only illegal if you do a crappy job of it. etc...etc...

It still *means* something for something to be illegal. It's a moral judgement reflecting the will of our society. If something is illegal, it's (at least supposed to be) *wrong*. Murder is *wrong*. Suicide is *wrong*. If it wasn't wrong; why would it be illegal?
 
2013-01-06 05:40:12 AM

Fark_Guy_Rob: Happy Hours: Can we spread the word? Maybe we can educate children too.

If you're gonna kill yourself, kill yourself.

Do NOT take out a whole bunch of others who had no say in the matter.

Do NOT make the cops shoot you - as you can see it didn't exactly work in this situation and there's a very good chance he'll never be let out of custody again.

If you wanna make a cry for help, do it without the gun.

If you wanna kill yourself, just do it.

We'd need to start by making suicide legal.

But that won't happen for all sorts of reasons (political/religious).


Find me a single state where "suicide" is illegal.  First off, how do you charge the offender?  You can't.  Secondly, so far as I know, an attempt at suicide, unless you also commit an actual crime (illegal possession of a firearm, criminal recklessness, etc) will not land you in jail in any state.  It will, however, land you with what's called an "Immediate Detention" which a judge can order extended for a period of time.  You can't, however (to my knowledge) go to jail for an attempted suicide.
 
2013-01-06 05:45:32 AM
I should clarify that most state, I'd venture to say all, have laws against aiding, abetting, or encouraging a person to commit suicide, or inducing a person to commit suicide.  But a person who tries to down a shiatload of pills, or slits their wrists in an attempt to die, isn't going to jail for the crime of "attempting suicide."

If somebody can cite me a law in any state, I'll happily admit that I'm wrong.
 
2013-01-06 05:48:59 AM

Fark_Guy_Rob: Neondistraction: Fark_Guy_Rob: It's illegal to commit suicide.

Only if you do a crappy job of it.

That's true of every law. Murder is only illegal if you do a crappy job of it. Speeding is only illegal if you do a crappy job of it. etc...etc...

It still *means* something for something to be illegal. It's a moral judgement reflecting the will of our society. If something is illegal, it's (at least supposed to be) *wrong*. Murder is *wrong*. Suicide is *wrong*. If it wasn't wrong; why would it be illegal?


Wat?
 
2013-01-06 05:50:32 AM
I have been to Surprise twice for spring training. Not a real happening place. The cop beat must be dull
 
2013-01-06 06:01:39 AM
Is there some good reason people actually live in Arizona? Or is it just that they're trapped and somehow can't find a way to escape?
 
2013-01-06 06:03:18 AM
Is Surprise pronounced the same way as it usually is, or is it like Pierre or Quincy, where everyone gets bent out of shape if you pronounce it wrong?
 
2013-01-06 06:06:19 AM

Fark_Guy_Rob: But what if *I* don't *want* to be treated?


In no country in the world today do you have the inalienable right to harm or kill yourself or others. But thanks to Saint Ronny, you can join a select club!

upload.wikimedia.org
upload.wikimedia.org

upload.wikimedia.org

scrapetv.com

upload.wikimedia.orga.abcnews.com
 
2013-01-06 06:08:09 AM

HideAndGoFarkYourself: Fark_Guy_Rob: Happy Hours: Can we spread the word? Maybe we can educate children too.

If you're gonna kill yourself, kill yourself.

Do NOT take out a whole bunch of others who had no say in the matter.

Do NOT make the cops shoot you - as you can see it didn't exactly work in this situation and there's a very good chance he'll never be let out of custody again.

If you wanna make a cry for help, do it without the gun.

If you wanna kill yourself, just do it.

We'd need to start by making suicide legal.

But that won't happen for all sorts of reasons (political/religious).

Find me a single state where "suicide" is illegal.  First off, how do you charge the offender?  You can't.  Secondly, so far as I know, an attempt at suicide, unless you also commit an actual crime (illegal possession of a firearm, criminal recklessness, etc) will not land you in jail in any state.  It will, however, land you with what's called an "Immediate Detention" which a judge can order extended for a period of time.  You can't, however (to my knowledge) go to jail for an attempted suicide.


You can't prosecute a dead man, sure. But if something is illegal, inevitably, attempted something is also illegal. As a result, attempted suicide would be illegal and as a result assisting someone to commit suicide is also illegal.

I'm not a lawyer and I'm not trying to be pedantic - so I'm not going to split hairs between 'being arrested' and being 'detained forever' or the difference between being locked in a 'cell' and locked in a 'room'. In either case, if representatives of the US government have the ability to detain you, against your will, for attempting to commit suicide - it's 'illegal' for all practical definitions of illegal.

One specific state, California, has 'Involuntary psychiatric hold' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_5150). That means, in California, you can be detained, forever, so long as someone who is 'qualified' decides you are a danger to yourself.

Only three states allow someone to assist a person in their suicide (Montana, Oregon, and Washington) - and they have very specific criteria (you must have less than 6 months to live, you must be terminally ill, you must be in pain, etc, etc....); in the other 47 states, helping someone to commit suicide is illegal. A listing of the specific laws and penalties can be found at http://euthanasia.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000132 - but the penalty for helping someone kill themselves is pretty serious in many states:

Up to 15 years in prison and/or a fine up to $30,000 if suicide results; up to seven years in prison and/or a fine up to $14,000 if attempted suicide results.

That's from Minnesota - which is interesting in that it specifies what happens if you help someone *ATTEMPT* to kill themselves. So, in this state, even aiding in an attempt is severely punishable.

So, without splitting hairs....
If you attempt to kill yourself or even make plans to kill yourself; you can be locked up against your will.
If anyone tries to help you kill yourself, in 47 states, they've committed a very serious crime. And in the 3 - unless you are in a very particular situation - they've still committed a very serious crime.
 
2013-01-06 06:09:04 AM

doglover: If we would just shoot all the people who threaten suicide non-fatally, eventually people would stop using it as a cry for attention.

"Oh, woe is me. I'm going to shoot myself!"

"No you're no. Illuminate him."


i like animals more than people but golly gee whiz. there are people who attempt suicide or threaten to attempt suicide because their life situation or mental health condition is such that it appears death is the best choice. IMHO a person in this condition is in the throes of madness. they are crying out for help and are out of their mind, to coin the phrase. people with mental health situations are already at a disadvantage with members of law enforcement, either because the police person pointing their weapon doesn't know or doesn't care about the reason behind the action. judging by online news their are enough civilians shot by law enforcement on a weekly basis. some of them are even justifiable but encouragement to add to the tally is harsh.

come mister tally man, tally me civilians
shot by a cop while walking home
come mister tally man, tally me civilians
another man dead, on paid leave i go
 
2013-01-06 06:09:14 AM

OhioUGrad: Guess this way if he dies at least if he has life insurance or something, his family will get that, and probably a wrongful death settlement....or he'll probably get money from the city if he lives.......guess he knew what he was doing.


Life Insurance policies will generally not pay out anything for suicide or death that occurs in the commission of a crime. If it was ruled a justified shooting because he was suicidal and wanted to take an officer down with him, then he won't get any money, the city will spend more fighting it on principle. The only blessing in disguise is that if he's in custody, the taxpayers will foot the bill for his medical treatment.
 
2013-01-06 06:09:38 AM

IMSwim80: to some extent, the purpose of having suicide on the books as illegal is to allow the police to get the fellow to some help ideally. I'm not sure how many cases of attempted bridge diving ever make it to trial, they just get released to the supposed care of a mental health unit.
/yes, quite well aware of the weaknesses in that whole system.
//nurse
///with a goatee.


The Wikipedias say that suicide in the U.S. is considered a common law offense in some states. That would mean it's illegal because, since Blackstone, people have thought it ought to be illegal (for a few hundred years). If that's so, it has nothing to do with the desire to get people "help" and a lot do with the fact that it has traditionally been regarded a grave sin, and a terribly disturbing one at that.

It is said that funerals are not for the dead but the living, and the same may be said about suicide laws and policies. Suicide upsets people and makes them feel guilty (and sometimes that's exactly the point of doing it). Even among medical workers, much of the professed concern for getting "help" for suicides is a cover for the failures and shortcomings that motivated the suicide in the first place. Screw a man suicidal in divorce court and you'll look like a biatch -- unless you make puppy eyes and fret over how the mental health system failed your ex. Similarly, short of killing a patient on the operating table nothing speaks worse of your standard of care than the patient who would choose rather to die than endure it. You'll feel better about those cases if you attribute them all to psychiatric complications.

It's impossible to know for sure, but I think relatively few suicidal cases need psychiatric "help". A ruined man who sees no way out and would rather cap himself on the evening news than pay alimony to his worst enemy does not have a disorder. A basket case diabetic who is fast losing his feet and eyes does not need treatment for depression, though after he jumps off the roof rather than live the rest of his life in a wheelchair listening to audio books, his caregivers will comfort themselves by attributing it to the "weaknesses in the whole system".

It's mostly about keeping people from feeling bad, not the people killing themselves.

/cynicism
 
2013-01-06 06:12:32 AM

BronyMedic: Fark_Guy_Rob: But what if *I* don't *want* to be treated?

In no country in the world today do you have the inalienable right to harm or kill yourself or others. But thanks to Saint Ronny, you can join a select club!

[upload.wikimedia.org image 170x248]
[upload.wikimedia.org image 217x224]

[upload.wikimedia.org image 174x200]

[scrapetv.com image 460x288]

[upload.wikimedia.org image 220x260][a.abcnews.com image 640x360]


That's absolutely not true.

There are countries where you CAN kill yourself if you deem it in your best interest. There might be regulations around how you attempt to kill yourself (in Scottland, you can't do it in public, for example).

Norway is another.
 
2013-01-06 06:14:36 AM

KrispyKritter: they are crying out for help and are out of their mind, to coin the phrase. people with mental health situations are already at a disadvantage with members of law enforcement, either because the police person pointing their weapon doesn't know or doesn't care about the reason behind the action. judging by online news their are enough civilians shot by law enforcement on a weekly basis.


Cops are trained to isolate a suicidal person threatening harm to themselves or others, and use negotiators or mental health crisis intervention tactics to try to talk them down, and if that fails and it is safe to do so to use non-lethal devices. However, that becomes a moot point when a person either starts shooting at a cop or a bystander, or makes a move as if to do it.

It's the thing about suicide by cop - damned if you do, and if you don't, there's a good chance he could take you down to encourage your buddies to do the act themselves.

Fox Phoenix is reporting the guy has died.

FTFA: Police say they had lengthy negotiations with Byne, who was holding a rifle to his head and threatened to kill himself. They say Byne made comments to officers that he was going to get them to shoot him. During negotiations, officers attempted to use a less lethal device to stop the man from shooting himself or others. Byne continued refusing to put down the rifle and at some point during the negotiations, police shot the man.

I'm willing to bet that if they escalated to shooting him, he pointed the rifle at one of the officers. As the article says, the investigation is ongoing.
 
2013-01-06 06:14:36 AM

gerbilpox: Fark_Guy_Rob: Neondistraction: Fark_Guy_Rob: It's illegal to commit suicide.

Only if you do a crappy job of it.

That's true of every law. Murder is only illegal if you do a crappy job of it. Speeding is only illegal if you do a crappy job of it. etc...etc...

It still *means* something for something to be illegal. It's a moral judgement reflecting the will of our society. If something is illegal, it's (at least supposed to be) *wrong*. Murder is *wrong*. Suicide is *wrong*. If it wasn't wrong; why would it be illegal?

Wat?


If you commit a crime and do it 'right' - that implies you won't be caught or that you'll be in such a position that you can't be prosecuted (IE flee to another country).

So, when people say 'suicide is legal *IF* you do it right' are just implying that if you kill yourself, you can't be prosecuted. And that's true. But if you rob a bank and DON'T get caught or leave any evidence, you can't be convicted of the crime either.
 
2013-01-06 06:16:24 AM

Fark_Guy_Rob: BronyMedic: Fark_Guy_Rob: But what if *I* don't *want* to be treated?

In no country in the world today do you have the inalienable right to harm or kill yourself or others. But thanks to Saint Ronny, you can join a select club!

[upload.wikimedia.org image 170x248]
[upload.wikimedia.org image 217x224]

[upload.wikimedia.org image 174x200]

[scrapetv.com image 460x288]

[upload.wikimedia.org image 220x260][a.abcnews.com image 640x360]

That's absolutely not true.

There are countries where you CAN kill yourself if you deem it in your best interest. There might be regulations around how you attempt to kill yourself (in Scottland, you can't do it in public, for example).

Norway is another.


In countries that voluntary euthanasia is legalized in, they have to be screened and deemed of sound mind and free from mental health disorders, as well as have multiple opinions that the disease is either terminal, or will get worse with no hope for recovery and progressive loss of quality of life before they can have the pentobarb prescribed to them.
 
2013-01-06 06:20:25 AM

Fark_Guy_Rob: HideAndGoFarkYourself: Fark_Guy_Rob: Happy Hours: Can we spread the word? Maybe we can educate children too.

If you're gonna kill yourself, kill yourself.

Do NOT take out a whole bunch of others who had no say in the matter.

Do NOT make the cops shoot you - as you can see it didn't exactly work in this situation and there's a very good chance he'll never be let out of custody again.

If you wanna make a cry for help, do it without the gun.

If you wanna kill yourself, just do it.

We'd need to start by making suicide legal.

But that won't happen for all sorts of reasons (political/religious).

Find me a single state where "suicide" is illegal.  First off, how do you charge the offender?  You can't.  Secondly, so far as I know, an attempt at suicide, unless you also commit an actual crime (illegal possession of a firearm, criminal recklessness, etc) will not land you in jail in any state.  It will, however, land you with what's called an "Immediate Detention" which a judge can order extended for a period of time.  You can't, however (to my knowledge) go to jail for an attempted suicide.

You can't prosecute a dead man, sure. But if something is illegal, inevitably, attempted something is also illegal. As a result, attempted suicide would be illegal and as a result assisting someone to commit suicide is also illegal.

I'm not a lawyer and I'm not trying to be pedantic - so I'm not going to split hairs between 'being arrested' and being 'detained forever' or the difference between being locked in a 'cell' and locked in a 'room'. In either case, if representatives of the US government have the ability to detain you, against your will, for attempting to commit suicide - it's 'illegal' for all practical definitions of illegal.

One specific state, California, has 'Involuntary psychiatric hold' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_5150). That means, in California, you can be detained, forever, so long as someone who is 'qualified' decides you are a danger to yourself.

Only three states allow someone to assist a person in their suicide (Montana, Oregon, and Washington) - and they have very specific criteria (you must have less than 6 months to live, you must be terminally ill, you must be in pain, etc, etc....); in the other 47 states, helping someone to commit suicide is illegal. A listing of the specific laws and penalties can be found at http://euthanasia.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000132 - but the penalty for helping someone kill themselves is pretty serious in many states:

Up to 15 years in prison and/or a fine up to $30,000 if suicide results; up to seven years in prison and/or a fine up to $14,000 if attempted suicide results.

That's from Minnesota - which is interesting in that it specifies what happens if you help someone *ATTEMPT* to kill themselves. So, in this state, even aiding in an attempt is severely punishable.

So, without splitting hairs....
If you attempt to kill yourself or even make plans to kill yourself; you can be locked up against your will.
If anyone tries to help you kill yourself, in 47 states, they've committed a very serious crime. And in the 3 - unless you are in a very particular situation - they've still committed a very serious crime.


The psychiatric hold isn't a criminal matter. It's a civil order, which requires a civil hearing if it extends past a certain period of time.

I get what you're saying about there being repercussions to self-harm. But you'd be surprised by the number of people I deal with who try to kill themselves and their biggest fear is that they're going to jail because "suicide is illegal." It's not a criminal offense in any state.
 
2013-01-06 06:24:52 AM

BronyMedic: Fark_Guy_Rob: BronyMedic: Fark_Guy_Rob: But what if *I* don't *want* to be treated?

In no country in the world today do you have the inalienable right to harm or kill yourself or others. But thanks to Saint Ronny, you can join a select club!

[upload.wikimedia.org image 170x248]
[upload.wikimedia.org image 217x224]

[upload.wikimedia.org image 174x200]

[scrapetv.com image 460x288]

[upload.wikimedia.org image 220x260][a.abcnews.com image 640x360]

That's absolutely not true.

There are countries where you CAN kill yourself if you deem it in your best interest. There might be regulations around how you attempt to kill yourself (in Scottland, you can't do it in public, for example).

Norway is another.

In countries that voluntary euthanasia is legalized in, they have to be screened and deemed of sound mind and free from mental health disorders, as well as have multiple opinions that the disease is either terminal, or will get worse with no hope for recovery and progressive loss of quality of life before they can have the pentobarb prescribed to them.


That's not true either.

In Switzerland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia_in_Switzerland) a person does NOT need to be terminally ill, nor do they have to be ill at all.

Evaluating a wish for assisted suicide requires distinguishing between a wish to die that reflects a curable psychic distortion, which calls for treatment, and a wish that is based on a self-determined, carefully considered and lasting decision made by a lucid person, which possibly needs to be respected

A perfectly healthy, lucid person, can DECIDE they don't want to live anymore. Legally.
 
2013-01-06 06:26:01 AM

HideAndGoFarkYourself: Fark_Guy_Rob: HideAndGoFarkYourself: Fark_Guy_Rob: Happy Hours: Can we spread the word? Maybe we can educate children too.

If you're gonna kill yourself, kill yourself.

Do NOT take out a whole bunch of others who had no say in the matter.

Do NOT make the cops shoot you - as you can see it didn't exactly work in this situation and there's a very good chance he'll never be let out of custody again.

If you wanna make a cry for help, do it without the gun.

If you wanna kill yourself, just do it.

We'd need to start by making suicide legal.

But that won't happen for all sorts of reasons (political/religious).

Find me a single state where "suicide" is illegal.  First off, how do you charge the offender?  You can't.  Secondly, so far as I know, an attempt at suicide, unless you also commit an actual crime (illegal possession of a firearm, criminal recklessness, etc) will not land you in jail in any state.  It will, however, land you with what's called an "Immediate Detention" which a judge can order extended for a period of time.  You can't, however (to my knowledge) go to jail for an attempted suicide.

You can't prosecute a dead man, sure. But if something is illegal, inevitably, attempted something is also illegal. As a result, attempted suicide would be illegal and as a result assisting someone to commit suicide is also illegal.

I'm not a lawyer and I'm not trying to be pedantic - so I'm not going to split hairs between 'being arrested' and being 'detained forever' or the difference between being locked in a 'cell' and locked in a 'room'. In either case, if representatives of the US government have the ability to detain you, against your will, for attempting to commit suicide - it's 'illegal' for all practical definitions of illegal.

One specific state, California, has 'Involuntary psychiatric hold' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_5150). That means, in California, you can be detained, forever, so long as someone who is 'qualified' decides you are a dang ...


Fair enough - they can still be locked up for it; but it's not a 'criminal' lock up. And if anyone helps them do it, they can be locked up.
 
2013-01-06 06:38:10 AM

BronyMedic: OhioUGrad: Guess this way if he dies at least if he has life insurance or something, his family will get that, and probably a wrongful death settlement....or he'll probably get money from the city if he lives.......guess he knew what he was doing.

Life Insurance policies will generally not pay out anything for suicide or death that occurs in the commission of a crime. If it was ruled a justified shooting because he was suicidal and wanted to take an officer down with him, then he won't get any money, the city will spend more fighting it on principle. The only blessing in disguise is that if he's in custody, the taxpayers will foot the bill for his medical treatment.


Threatening suicide is not a crime, so as long as he legally owned the gun, no crime was committed. Also, I'd like to see their justification behind wanting to take out an officer when the gun was pointed at his own head. Cities don't fight on principle anymore just like companies don't, it's easier to pay out and make it go away. Of course all of that also hinges on him having any family, or any insurance policy or any of that. You're right about the medical treatment and then as well as any mentally health treatment (if he survives).
 
2013-01-06 06:40:26 AM
Ahh, forgot to mention, the insurance company could try and rule it "suicide by police" if he dies and they rule that he wanted to die but didn't want to do it himself...but that usually involves shooting AT police, not pointing the gun at yourself.
 
2013-01-06 06:41:10 AM
I just leave this here.

Link
 
2013-01-06 06:44:00 AM

HideAndGoFarkYourself: Fark_Guy_Rob: Happy Hours: Can we spread the word? Maybe we can educate children too.

If you're gonna kill yourself, kill yourself.

Do NOT take out a whole bunch of others who had no say in the matter.

Do NOT make the cops shoot you - as you can see it didn't exactly work in this situation and there's a very good chance he'll never be let out of custody again.

If you wanna make a cry for help, do it without the gun.

If you wanna kill yourself, just do it.

We'd need to start by making suicide legal.

But that won't happen for all sorts of reasons (political/religious).

Find me a single state where "suicide" is illegal.  First off, how do you charge the offender?  You can't.  Secondly, so far as I know, an attempt at suicide, unless you also commit an actual crime (illegal possession of a firearm, criminal recklessness, etc) will not land you in jail in any state.  It will, however, land you with what's called an "Immediate Detention" which a judge can order extended for a period of time.  You can't, however (to my knowledge) go to jail for an attempted suicide.


When I lived and worked in Georgia, it was illegal to kill yourself by state code.  It seems they have clarified since I left though.  I would give you a reference, but the state went to some impossible to navigate website to house their code, so you'll have to take my word for it.

Killing a fetus is illegal in Georgia now though.  (16.5.80)
 
2013-01-06 06:50:38 AM

Heffaloo: Happy Hours:
It's not quite as simple as that though.

What if one actually suffers from mental illness? (as opposed to most Farkers who claim they enjoy every minute of it).

I can't say there's no cure or even any treatment that may help, but the same could be said of any physical disease.

Should the mentally ill not be allowed to die with dignity?  Who gets to make that call? What criteria do they apply?

Okay, you're terminally ill. The doctors all agree you won't live more than 6 months and even though you will be in some great pain we're gonna have to make you ride this one out.

Oh, hi, suicidal guy? You say you can never sleep and you have tried every medication ever known to man and you still hate life? Oh, come now. You're in great health. Maybe we should lock you up so you can live another 50 years - in prison, just so you don't kill yourself.

Indeed.  People without crippling depression don't realize how much mental illness can just hurt.  There's not really anywhere you can point to, but the misery is absolute.
A very good article about Borderline Personality Disorder can be found at www.borderlinesworld.com


BronyMedic is still right. Why is this the business of the state? Well boo hoo hoo, your life sucks so much you wanna die? Help yourself.

"Here, please use this device/medication/contraption at OffYourself IndustriesTM, and good day to you sir."

Not my problem. Certainly not the business of the state. And if the farking cops stopped showing up and shooting people, most of these miserable folks will eventually put the gun down and go about with their lives.
 
2013-01-06 06:57:14 AM

BronyMedic: Fark_Guy_Rob: But what if *I* don't *want* to be treated?

In no country in the world today do you have the inalienable right to harm or kill yourself or others. But thanks to Saint Ronny, you can join a select club!

[upload.wikimedia.org image 170x248]
[upload.wikimedia.org image 217x224]

[upload.wikimedia.org image 174x200]

[scrapetv.com image 460x288]

[upload.wikimedia.org image 220x260][a.abcnews.com image 640x360]

.
Why is your photo not included?
 
2013-01-06 06:58:08 AM

BronyMedic: Fark_Guy_Rob: But what if *I* don't *want* to be treated?

In no country in the world today do you have the inalienable right to harm or kill yourself or others. But thanks to Saint Ronny, you can join a select club!

[upload.wikimedia.org image 170x248]
[upload.wikimedia.org image 217x224]

[upload.wikimedia.org image 174x200]

[scrapetv.com image 460x288]

[upload.wikimedia.org image 220x260][a.abcnews.com image 640x360]


Mental illness is one issue. We got millions of head cases and millions of guns but few mass shootings.
Suicide is another issue. There are many good ways to off yourself and people don't give two shiats about the law once that decision is made. But they also don't make it a group affair.

Neither issue seems to create rampage killers, altho they are often cited symptoms.
I suspect the real problem is the thought that one is entitled to "go out in a blaze of glory", which is a belief often found in popular media.
Take an unstable person who's suicidal, beat the thought into their head with the drum of a constant news cycle that can't shut up about these events, and they get to thinking that suicide by cop is a normal thing.

Which leaves us where we are now, where a large percentage of people shot by cops turn out to be mentally ill.
 
2013-01-06 06:58:40 AM

crabsno termites: Why is it any concern of the government if anyone wants to end their life?

/Jack Kevorkian - right message, wrong messenger (Ross Perot, as well).


Because legal suicide makes covering up murder insanely easy, at least this form of suicide (just shooting yourself in the head) and for many years before it was made illegal in most states (the 1930s, usually) it was very common to use it to do things like defraud life insurance companies and steal inheritances and so on. Now that it's illegal, a suicide involves an actual police investigation rather than a cursory one, making such things significantly less viable.

Physician-assisted suicide is sort of a different ball of wax there: by treating it as a medical procedure, you have loads of paper-trail and consultation records verifying the intent of the soon-to-be deceased over a period of months or years, so it's not particularly easy to use as a cover, and it's not terribly cheap or quick, so it isn't really usable via spur-of-the-moment bad decision. That's why a couple of states have made it legal.
 
2013-01-06 07:02:33 AM

Fark_Guy_Rob: Neondistraction: Fark_Guy_Rob: It's illegal to commit suicide.

Only if you do a crappy job of it.

That's true of every law. Murder is only illegal if you do a crappy job of it. Speeding is only illegal if you do a crappy job of it. etc...etc...

It still *means* something for something to be illegal. It's a moral judgement reflecting the will of our society. If something is illegal, it's (at least supposed to be) *wrong*. Murder is *wrong*. Suicide is *wrong*. If it wasn't wrong; why would it be illegal?


So when a politician gets a law passed, what was just fine yesterday is now wrong today? How can an adult really think this way? Legality and rightness are too often mutually exclusive. You creep me out with your state-is-always-right mindset. Dude, learn to think for yourself. Open your eyes. And you actually believe that "society" has a will? This clearly IS a mental illness situation here. But the illness is not with the guy who the farking cop shot, it's with your blind obedience to the sytem.
 
2013-01-06 07:06:04 AM

Gyrfalcon: Is there some good reason people actually live in Arizona? Or is it just that they're trapped and somehow can't find a way to escape?


People who can escape, do. The rest remain trapped forever in Los Angeles. Hope you make it out someday, buddy.
 
2013-01-06 07:14:33 AM

david_gaithersburg: Why is your photo not included?


Exactly what are you trying to insinuate here? That I'm mentally ill, or that I'm going to go murder a bunch of people?

I know you're a pretty piss poor Far Right Winged Troll, but that was the weakest I've seen on FARK since...well, ever. You're an idiot and a terrible human being, and you should feel bad for posting that.

OhioUGrad: Threatening suicide is not a crime, so as long as he legally owned the gun, no crime was committed.


The crime was commited when he decided to involve the police, and tell them they better shoot him before he shoots them. It's assault with a deadly weapon. At any rate, life insurance policies specifically exclude suicide and "self-inflicted harm" like intentional illicit drug use as a rider to the policy unless you're talking cadilac, beyond the reach of people who don't work at Bain Capital kind of plans.

Also, I'd like to see their justification behind wanting to take out an officer when the gun was pointed at his own head.

You put a gun on a cop and make like you're going to pull the trigger, chances are you're going to get shot. Don't want to get shot? Don't point a gun at a cop and tell him "you either kill me or I'll kill you."

Cities don't fight on principle anymore just like companies don't, it's easier to pay out and make it go away. Of course all of that also hinges on him having any family, or any insurance policy or any of that. You're right about the medical treatment and then as well as any mentally health treatment (if he survives).

The hell they don't. If the city has reasonable belief that the shooting was jusitifed, they'll spend the money to fight it since the judgements are usually over the city's liability insurance minimum limits. At that point, the underwriters of that policy get involved. We're not talking about a metro bus wreck where someone wants a quick 500 dollars for neck pain. These are multi-million dollar lawsuits in which the cost of fighting is far outweighed by the cost of fighting them in court.

EVERYBODY PANIC: Not my problem. Certainly not the business of the state. And if the farking cops stopped showing up and shooting people, most of these miserable folks will eventually put the gun down and go about with their lives.


Because a sixteen year old girl wanting to kill herself over her boyfriend dumping her, and a guy wanting to off himself because he's in debt are totally rational decisions that will never improve, right? Just let them die, and society can fark off the costs of it when it fails and they're left with a vegetable to take care of, right?

The society of the United States has deemed suicide to be (generally) unacceptable on moral, emotional, and financhial levels. And it's a far more complex matter than a Nihilistic world view of "Life sucks, let's just let anyone kill themselves and not give a fark."
 
2013-01-06 07:16:20 AM
Ahem. By the cost of paying them off rather than going to court.
 
2013-01-06 07:21:36 AM
I have to disagree....

It's illegal to commit suicide.
Helping someone commit suicide is also illegal.
Attempting suicide is also illegal.

You aren't serious, I hope?
Because legislation is ALWAYS the answer to the dim-witted.
Heroine, meth and cocaine are all illegal, so that solves those problems.
And a ban on firearms will effectively end gun-related crime, right?
 
2013-01-06 07:24:19 AM

EVERYBODY PANIC: So when a politician gets a law passed, what was just fine yesterday is now wrong today? How can an adult really think this way? Legality and rightness are too often mutually exclusive. You creep me out with your state-is-always-right mindset. Dude, learn to think for yourself. Open your eyes. And you actually believe that "society" has a will? This clearly IS a mental illness situation here. But the illness is not with the guy who the farking cop shot, it's with your blind obedience to the sytem.


As Thoreau said, no man is an island. You do not have the freedom to do whatever the fark you want to do whenever you want as a member of a society of fellow human beings. Personal freedoms have to be balanced, while being maintained to the utmost possible, with the needs of that society as a whole as a consideration as well. That's the price you pay for being a member of a nation, and for associating with fellow human beings.

Don't like it? Go Galt. Or Vacation in...
www.libertarianinternational.org
 
2013-01-06 07:33:06 AM

Fark_Guy_Rob: A perfectly healthy, lucid person, can DECIDE they don't want to live anymore. Legally.


It's a little more complex than you make it seem.

From the Link you posted: Whether the prerequisites for this are satisfied cannot be evaluated separately from medical - especially psychiatric - special knowledge and proves to be difficult in practice. Therefore, the appropriate assessment requires the presentation of a special in-depth psychiatric opinion.

So from your own link it's far more complex than a "perfectly healthy, lucid person deciding they don't want to live anymore".
 
2013-01-06 07:38:10 AM

EVERYBODY PANIC: Gyrfalcon: Is there some good reason people actually live in Arizona? Or is it just that they're trapped and somehow can't find a way to escape?

People who can escape, do. The rest remain trapped forever in Los Angeles. Hope you make it out someday, buddy.


I moved there when the influx came from the Midwest but witnessed the swarm start from Cali. And today you have traffic and smog and endless sprawl. I even remember Surprise when it was just old shacks really.

I left to work elsewhere but will return to the the West eventually, just not Phoenix.

Ahem, police poeple, your're farking tasering people for mouthing off these days and you can't just taser this guy? Isn't that one of the reason you said you needed TASERS?
 
2013-01-06 07:39:30 AM

BronyMedic: david_gaithersburg: Why is your photo not included?

Exactly what are you trying to insinuate here? That I'm mentally ill, or that I'm going to go murder a bunch of people?

I know you're a pretty piss poor Far Right Winged Troll, but that was the weakest I've seen on FARK since...well, ever. You're an idiot and a terrible human being, and you should feel bad for posting that.

OhioUGrad: Threatening suicide is not a crime, so as long as he legally owned the gun, no crime was committed.

The crime was commited when he decided to involve the police, and tell them they better shoot him before he shoots them. It's assault with a deadly weapon. At any rate, life insurance policies specifically exclude suicide and "self-inflicted harm" like intentional illicit drug use as a rider to the policy unless you're talking cadilac, beyond the reach of people who don't work at Bain Capital kind of plans.

Also, I'd like to see their justification behind wanting to take out an officer when the gun was pointed at his own head.

You put a gun on a cop and make like you're going to pull the trigger, chances are you're going to get shot. Don't want to get shot? Don't point a gun at a cop and tell him "you either kill me or I'll kill you."

Cities don't fight on principle anymore just like companies don't, it's easier to pay out and make it go away. Of course all of that also hinges on him having any family, or any insurance policy or any of that. You're right about the medical treatment and then as well as any mentally health treatment (if he survives).

The hell they don't. If the city has reasonable belief that the shooting was jusitifed, they'll spend the money to fight it since the judgements are usually over the city's liability insurance minimum limits. At that point, the underwriters of that policy get involved. We're not talking about a metro bus wreck where someone wants a quick 500 dollars for neck pain. These are multi-million dollar lawsuits in which the cost of fighting i ...


You must have read a story with more detail, in the 2 that I read it never said he pointed the gun at police. Also getting police involved is NOT A CRIME. If someone called the police right now and said "I want to kill myself" and police came, there is no crime committed or if someone else called and said so and so is threatening to hurt them-self. (although that person would be taken in for a mental evaluation) If he did point his gun at police then that would be a crime, but again I have seen no mention of that, and I wouldn't take the word of police at this point using it as justification to shoot him.

Anyway, was a fun discussion, time to move on to another thread or go back to sleep.
 
2013-01-06 07:40:45 AM

edmo: Ahem, police poeple, your're farking tasering people for mouthing off these days and you can't just taser this guy? Isn't that one of the reason you said you needed TASERS?


FTFA: Officers negotiated with the man for a period of time, and then attempted to use a less lethal device to stop the man from hurting himself. The attempt wasn't successful, and at some point the man was shot by police.

Reading is hard.....
 
2013-01-06 08:20:42 AM

EVERYBODY PANIC: Fark_Guy_Rob: Neondistraction: Fark_Guy_Rob: It's illegal to commit suicide.

Only if you do a crappy job of it.

That's true of every law. Murder is only illegal if you do a crappy job of it. Speeding is only illegal if you do a crappy job of it. etc...etc...

It still *means* something for something to be illegal. It's a moral judgement reflecting the will of our society. If something is illegal, it's (at least supposed to be) *wrong*. Murder is *wrong*. Suicide is *wrong*. If it wasn't wrong; why would it be illegal?

So when a politician gets a law passed, what was just fine yesterday is now wrong today? How can an adult really think this way? Legality and rightness are too often mutually exclusive. You creep me out with your state-is-always-right mindset. Dude, learn to think for yourself. Open your eyes. And you actually believe that "society" has a will? This clearly IS a mental illness situation here. But the illness is not with the guy who the farking cop shot, it's with your blind obedience to the sytem.


The problem is not *thinking* for yourself; the problem is that doing ILLEGAL things result in serious problems for people who do it. Being 'right' is not a legal defense in societies where your definition of 'right' conflicts with the law. I think it's 'right' for me to do whatever I want with my body; so long as I'm not directly interfering with other people's rights. That means *any* drug I want to take; so long as I'm doing it without directly negatively affecting someone else (IE - if I'm doing crack *AND* I'm trying to kill someone) - I should be allowed to do it.

But that rational argument (whether right or wrong) isn't going to help when I'm thrown in jail for possession of something illegal.

Likewise, if you help someone kill themselves; whether or not *YOU* believe it's justified, and whether or not you are right - has nothing to do with anything. It's a crime. And it carries a heavy sentence in most of the world.

Sure, people might *THINK* the law is wrong; but that'll do very little to help you as you spend 10 years in prison.
 
2013-01-06 08:22:50 AM

BronyMedic: EVERYBODY PANIC: So when a politician gets a law passed, what was just fine yesterday is now wrong today? How can an adult really think this way? Legality and rightness are too often mutually exclusive. You creep me out with your state-is-always-right mindset. Dude, learn to think for yourself. Open your eyes. And you actually believe that "society" has a will? This clearly IS a mental illness situation here. But the illness is not with the guy who the farking cop shot, it's with your blind obedience to the sytem.

As Thoreau said, no man is an island. You do not have the freedom to do whatever the fark you want to do whenever you want as a member of a society of fellow human beings. Personal freedoms have to be balanced, while being maintained to the utmost possible, with the needs of that society as a whole as a consideration as well. That's the price you pay for being a member of a nation, and for associating with fellow human beings.

Don't like it? Go Galt. Or Vacation in...


Want to make a point and have people listen? Drop the Somalia bs.
 
2013-01-06 08:23:31 AM

BronyMedic: Fark_Guy_Rob: A perfectly healthy, lucid person, can DECIDE they don't want to live anymore. Legally.

It's a little more complex than you make it seem.

From the Link you posted: Whether the prerequisites for this are satisfied cannot be evaluated separately from medical - especially psychiatric - special knowledge and proves to be difficult in practice. Therefore, the appropriate assessment requires the presentation of a special in-depth psychiatric opinion.

So from your own link it's far more complex than a "perfectly healthy, lucid person deciding they don't want to live anymore".


You're splitting hairs for the sake of arguing. We're not even talking about suicide anymore, we're talking about assisted suicide. For *someone else* to assist in the suicide, in Sweden, they DO NOT NEED TO BE TERMINALLY ILL - which is what you claimed. And it's clearly wrong.

Yes, they do need to be evaluated to determine that they are of sound mind; before someone else can assist in their suicide.

But that makes your initial claim, decidedly, wrong.
 
2013-01-06 08:34:25 AM
i.qkme.me

/Seriously? Nobody else got to it before me?
 
2013-01-06 08:35:14 AM
Not being there, if he pointed the gun at the cops to get the job done he can't do himself, feel bad for the cops.

On the other hand, if the cops were feeling nervous, I can easily see them making this happen if the person without the uniform was attempting to wind down the situation.

Either way honest cops are being pushed out and I fully expect the final report to reflect the LEO's reality. Because their life was possibly in danger.
 
2013-01-06 08:51:08 AM
Suicide being illegal has nothing to with locking someone up in jail. Those who commit suicide are punished by their life insurance policies becoming null and void. Like an episode of CSI when a man who lost all his brother's life savings and wanted to get it back for him, so he killed himself. He tried to make it look like a homicide so his brother would get paid, only for CSI to discover the truth. If hollywood can figure it out, why the rest of you. Attempted suicides are likely 'sentenced' to a mental hospital for treatment. So 1/10 for the trolls.
 
2013-01-06 09:00:38 AM

Fark_Guy_Rob: EVERYBODY PANIC: Fark_Guy_Rob: Neondistraction: Fark_Guy_Rob: It's illegal to commit suicide.

Only if you do a crappy job of it.

That's true of every law. Murder is only illegal if you do a crappy job of it. Speeding is only illegal if you do a crappy job of it. etc...etc...

It still *means* something for something to be illegal. It's a moral judgement reflecting the will of our society. If something is illegal, it's (at least supposed to be) *wrong*. Murder is *wrong*. Suicide is *wrong*. If it wasn't wrong; why would it be illegal?

So when a politician gets a law passed, what was just fine yesterday is now wrong today? How can an adult really think this way? Legality and rightness are too often mutually exclusive. You creep me out with your state-is-always-right mindset. Dude, learn to think for yourself. Open your eyes. And you actually believe that "society" has a will? This clearly IS a mental illness situation here. But the illness is not with the guy who the farking cop shot, it's with your blind obedience to the sytem.

The problem is not *thinking* for yourself; the problem is that doing ILLEGAL things result in serious problems for people who do it. Being 'right' is not a legal defense in societies where your definition of 'right' conflicts with the law. I think it's 'right' for me to do whatever I want with my body; so long as I'm not directly interfering with other people's rights. That means *any* drug I want to take; so long as I'm doing it without directly negatively affecting someone else (IE - if I'm doing crack *AND* I'm trying to kill someone) - I should be allowed to do it.

But that rational argument (whether right or wrong) isn't going to help when I'm thrown in jail for possession of something illegal.

Likewise, if you help someone kill themselves; whether or not *YOU* believe it's justified, and whether or not you are right - has nothing to do with anything. It's a crime. And it carries a heavy sentence in most of the world.

...


Ah, I totally agree with this explanation. So, right or wrong,the problem is often that the laws suck and the enforcement of bad laws is too often worse than the laws themselves. Right where we really started again. How one chooses to live and act is always just fine so long as one is proprietary about it. And just when we can agree on this, the state rears it's ugly head and we all duck for cover. Nobody can protect us from our protectors. Bummer for us.
 
2013-01-06 09:02:56 AM

BronyMedic: KrispyKritter: they are crying out for help and are out of their mind, to coin the phrase. people with mental health situations are already at a disadvantage with members of law enforcement, either because the police person pointing their weapon doesn't know or doesn't care about the reason behind the action. judging by online news their are enough civilians shot by law enforcement on a weekly basis.

Cops are trained to isolate a suicidal person threatening harm to themselves or others, and use negotiators or mental health crisis intervention tactics to try to talk them down, and if that fails and it is safe to do so to use non-lethal devices. However, that becomes a moot point when a person either starts shooting at a cop or a bystander, or makes a move as if to do it.

It's the thing about suicide by cop - damned if you do, and if you don't, there's a good chance he could take you down to encourage your buddies to do the act themselves.

Fox Phoenix is reporting the guy has died.

FTFA: Police say they had lengthy negotiations with Byne, who was holding a rifle to his head and threatened to kill himself. They say Byne made comments to officers that he was going to get them to shoot him. During negotiations, officers attempted to use a less lethal device to stop the man from shooting himself or others. Byne continued refusing to put down the rifle and at some point during the negotiations, police shot the man.

I'm willing to bet that if they escalated to shooting him, he pointed the rifle at one of the officers. As the article says, the investigation is ongoing.


If you go by a standard use of force continuum, the suspect was using deadly force in an attempt to harm himself. The officers tried to use a lower level of force to resolve the situation, i.e. bean bag round, baton, or taser. That level of force didn't work and the next only option is for the officers to use lethal force. Sounds like protocol was followed to me. It might sound ass backwards but shooting the suspect might have saved his life.
 
2013-01-06 09:09:17 AM

lack of warmth: Suicide being illegal has nothing to with locking someone up in jail. Those who commit suicide are punished by their life insurance policies becoming null and void. Like an episode of CSI when a man who lost all his brother's life savings and wanted to get it back for him, so he killed himself. He tried to make it look like a homicide so his brother would get paid, only for CSI to discover the truth. If hollywood can figure it out, why the rest of you. Attempted suicides are likely 'sentenced' to a mental hospital for treatment. So 1/10 for the trolls.


That may have been true in the past but now they do have to payout life insurance
 
2013-01-06 09:57:25 AM

Fark_Guy_Rob: lohphat: Fark_Guy_Rob: We'd need to start by making suicide legal.

But that won't happen for all sorts of reasons (political/religious).

It already is. It's only illegal if you fail.

As said above, we need better mental health care for the despondent.

We need access to dignified euthanasia, but again smart people can already get it done but making it legal, a la Dignitas, would be better.

I've given hospice care to terminal cancer patients and the end is not pretty. The option to go out before the body finishes eating itself from the inside is preferable to many. .

I have to disagree....

It's illegal to commit suicide.
Helping someone commit suicide is also illegal.
Attempting suicide is also illegal.


Sources, please?

I repeatedly tried to kill myself this summer and ended up being civilly committed for 7 weeks in a hospital. The matter was civil, not criminal. I was not charged with a crime.
 
2013-01-06 10:15:09 AM

Ed Grubermann: Fine. I'll do it.
[dennisjudd.com image 512x290]


wildcardjack: [i1190.photobucket.com image 300x200]

Lets see if this works...


jigger: Surprise! You're dead!


This is why I come to Fark. Internets high fives for all of you!!

Additional points to Ed Grubermann for awesome name.
(boot)
 
2013-01-06 10:20:53 AM

BronyMedic: Yes. There ARE treatments. Yes, there ARE people out there who live quality lives with mental illness. People who think it's OK for the mentally ill to kill themselves are the same caliber of people who will gladly stigmatize those WITH mental illness to the point they never seek treatment because of the stigma, or exile themselves to the streets.


Yes, and they're the majority of society.
 
2013-01-06 10:21:49 AM
Suicide is typically illegal in order to force medical attention onto the "culprit" or to otherwise allow the police access to premises they would otherwise need a warrant to enter. It's not a law designed to criminalize or punish the offender, so it's no Surprise to me you don't hear of more people charged...
 
2013-01-06 10:21:52 AM

BronyMedic: crabsno termites: Why is it any concern of the government if anyone wants to end their life?

Because someone who thinks that there's no one in the world who can solve his emotional problems is not the same as someone who's wanting to die with dignity and end the pain from a terminal disease from which there is no hope of a quality life or recovery.

One is a mental illness. The other is basic dignity.


Either way, it still shouldn't be anyone's business but their own. Attention whores rarely "succeed" at suicide because they choose methods that are easily foiled on purpose. The people that truly have no will to keep living either just quit living by folding inwards and stopping eating, socializing etc, or they do something drastic and final to end their perceived misery. I understand that their families and friends feel hurt by this approach, but I respect their decision to leave the world of the living as I would respect their decision to leave a crowded noisy restaurant.
 
2013-01-06 10:23:51 AM
surprise sex
 
2013-01-06 10:34:15 AM

dopekitty74: Attention whores rarely "succeed" at suicide because they choose methods that are easily foiled on purpose.


I think I'll listen to the people who chose great methods for suicide, like overdosing on time-release verapamil or trying to eat a bullet, when they tell me they are thankful someone gave them a second chance at life. I keep a letter from a suicidal patient I got a year after working him for an intentional heroin overdose in the glove compartment of my car to remind me why I do what I do. It's a thank you letter for giving him a second chance at life. Guy graduates from his residency in two years, and has been clean for the last four.

I think Ill also listen to the guy who leap from the Memphis bridge and survived a hundred and fifty foot fall into the Mississippi River when he says the moment he realized he was falling he regretted ever taking that leap.

dopekitty74: The people that truly have no will to keep living either just quit living by folding inwards and stopping eating, socializing etc, or they do something drastic and final to end their perceived misery.


The one firefighter I personally know who offed himself did so after a rather calm shift, with no indications or warning signs. He went home, sat down in his truck, and ate a revolver barrel. He did it because he blamed himself for a child dying a year before he killed himself, and he never sought help for the issues he was having because people told him to tough it out.

Forgive me if I don't share your opinion.

ialdabaoth: Yes, and they're the majority of society.People like to believe the majority of society doesn't care if some "attention whore" kills themselves so they can continue to justify their nihilistic world view.

FTFY.
 
2013-01-06 11:03:38 AM

dopekitty74: BronyMedic: crabsno termites: Why is it any concern of the government if anyone wants to end their life?

Because someone who thinks that there's no one in the world who can solve his emotional problems is not the same as someone who's wanting to die with dignity and end the pain from a terminal disease from which there is no hope of a quality life or recovery.

One is a mental illness. The other is basic dignity.

Either way, it still shouldn't be anyone's business but their own. Attention whores rarely "succeed" at suicide because they choose methods that are easily foiled on purpose. The people that truly have no will to keep living either just quit living by folding inwards and stopping eating, socializing etc, or they do something drastic and final to end their perceived misery. I understand that their families and friends feel hurt by this approach, but I respect their decision to leave the world of the living as I would respect their decision to leave a crowded noisy restaurant.


20% of people with bipolar disorder die by suicide, it is hardly rare.

Why do you use the term "attention whore"? I had attempts where I told no one, not even my boyfriend. Wouldn't it be better to use that term if I was stripping or something? It seems rude to put someone down just because they have a mental illness they didn't ask for.
 
2013-01-06 11:05:56 AM

Nestchick: dopekitty74: BronyMedic: crabsno termites: Why is it any concern of the government if anyone wants to end their life?

Because someone who thinks that there's no one in the world who can solve his emotional problems is not the same as someone who's wanting to die with dignity and end the pain from a terminal disease from which there is no hope of a quality life or recovery.

One is a mental illness. The other is basic dignity.

Either way, it still shouldn't be anyone's business but their own. Attention whores rarely "succeed" at suicide because they choose methods that are easily foiled on purpose. The people that truly have no will to keep living either just quit living by folding inwards and stopping eating, socializing etc, or they do something drastic and final to end their perceived misery. I understand that their families and friends feel hurt by this approach, but I respect their decision to leave the world of the living as I would respect their decision to leave a crowded noisy restaurant.

20% of people with bipolar disorder die by suicide, it is hardly rare.

Why do you use the term "attention whore"? I had attempts where I told no one, not even my boyfriend. Wouldn't it be better to use that term if I was stripping or something? It seems rude to put someone down just because they have a mental illness they didn't ask for.


u weren't put down. some girl named Candy was.
 
2013-01-06 11:06:36 AM
The mental health care system is absolutely criminal in Arizona.

The court-appointed monitor which was instituted by a lawsuit from a patient or their survivors was dropped because the state couldn't afford to pay for the monitoring.

Do not become mentally ill in Arizona. Death by cop is one of many terrible outcomes available.
 
2013-01-06 11:08:56 AM

Enemabag Jones: Not being there, if he pointed the gun at the cops to get the job done he can't do himself, feel bad for the cops.


That's exactly what I expect happened here.
 
2013-01-06 11:10:58 AM

Nestchick: dopekitty74: BronyMedic: crabsno termites: Why is it any concern of the government if anyone wants to end their life?

Because someone who thinks that there's no one in the world who can solve his emotional problems is not the same as someone who's wanting to die with dignity and end the pain from a terminal disease from which there is no hope of a quality life or recovery.

One is a mental illness. The other is basic dignity.

Either way, it still shouldn't be anyone's business but their own. Attention whores rarely "succeed" at suicide because they choose methods that are easily foiled on purpose. The people that truly have no will to keep living either just quit living by folding inwards and stopping eating, socializing etc, or they do something drastic and final to end their perceived misery. I understand that their families and friends feel hurt by this approach, but I respect their decision to leave the world of the living as I would respect their decision to leave a crowded noisy restaurant.

20% of people with bipolar disorder die by suicide, it is hardly rare.

Why do you use the term "attention whore"? I had attempts where I told no one, not even my boyfriend. Wouldn't it be better to use that term if I was stripping or something? It seems rude to put someone down just because they have a mental illness they didn't ask for.


I didn't say that all people who attempt suicide are attention whores, but a good lot of folks that threaten to ARE and those were what I was referring to.

My friend's mother has been threatening/attempting suicide for 20 years whenever things don't go her way. Her son is to the point where he doesn't care anymore because it's obviously a ploy for attention. She refuses treatment and thinks everyone is out to get her.
 
2013-01-06 11:52:27 AM

Fark_Guy_Rob: Happy Hours: Can we spread the word? Maybe we can educate children too.

If you're gonna kill yourself, kill yourself.

Do NOT take out a whole bunch of others who had no say in the matter.

Do NOT make the cops shoot you - as you can see it didn't exactly work in this situation and there's a very good chance he'll never be let out of custody again.

If you wanna make a cry for help, do it without the gun.

If you wanna kill yourself, just do it.

We'd need to start by making suicide legal.

But that won't happen for all sorts of reasons (political/religious).


Based on the quick pace that the human population has been increasing on the planet, the political/religious/societal stance may change to allow for suicide - for the overall survival of our species.
 
2013-01-06 12:04:54 PM

Gyrfalcon: Is there some good reason people actually live in Arizona? Or is it just that they're trapped and somehow can't find a way to escape?


I fled the hellhole known as California and I never looked back. Surprise is a pleasant suburb, but their cops are dicks. Almost everybody I know here who has had a bad experience with law enforcement didnt get it from Sheriff Joe,mthey got it from the Surorise PD.
 
2013-01-06 12:12:04 PM

Fark_Guy_Rob: We'd need to start by making suicide legal.


We need these...

www.technovelgy.com
 
2013-01-06 12:59:01 PM

crabsno termites: Why is it any concern of the government if anyone wants to end their life?

/Jack Kevorkian - right message, wrong messenger (Ross Perot, as well).


Because everyone is State Property?
 
2013-01-06 01:03:55 PM

BronyMedic: Fark_Guy_Rob: But what if *I* don't *want* to be treated?

In no country in the world today do you have the inalienable right to harm or kill yourself or others. But thanks to Saint Ronny the ACLU, you can join a select club!



fixed
 
2013-01-06 01:27:45 PM

EVERYBODY PANIC: Fark_Guy_Rob: Neondistraction: Fark_Guy_Rob: It's illegal to commit suicide.

Only if you do a crappy job of it.

That's true of every law. Murder is only illegal if you do a crappy job of it. Speeding is only illegal if you do a crappy job of it. etc...etc...

It still *means* something for something to be illegal. It's a moral judgement reflecting the will of our society. If something is illegal, it's (at least supposed to be) *wrong*. Murder is *wrong*. Suicide is *wrong*. If it wasn't wrong; why would it be illegal?

So when a politician gets a law passed, what was just fine yesterday is now wrong today? How can an adult really think this way? Legality and rightness are too often mutually exclusive. You creep me out with your state-is-always-right mindset. Dude, learn to think for yourself. Open your eyes. And you actually believe that "society" has a will? This clearly IS a mental illness situation here. But the illness is not with the guy who the farking cop shot, it's with your blind obedience to the sytem.


Your logic doesn't follow. Saying 3+3 is 12 is wrong, but it's not illegal.  Just because something is "wrong" doesn't mean it's illegal.  It is not illegal to kill yourself, period.  Show me a single person in prison today for attempted suicide.
 
2013-01-06 03:01:52 PM

Ed Grubermann: GloomCookie613: No Time To Explain: Ed Grubermann: Fine. I'll do it.

Almost forgot where that was from

/damn, Al needs to get back to movies again

What -is- it from? Sincerely curious.

UHF by Weird Al.


I thought that's what it was, but the confirmation helped. Thanks so much! :)
 
2013-01-06 03:11:57 PM

LegoLewdite: Suicide is typically illegal in order to force medical attention onto the "culprit" or to otherwise allow the police access to premises they would otherwise need a warrant to enter. It's not a law designed to criminalize or punish the offender, so it's no Surprise to me you don't hear of more people charged...


That's simply not the case at all. Police don't need a warrant to enter a residence to prevent the loss of life, it's an exigenct circumstance, and an exception to the search warrant requirement.

Trying to kill yourself is NOT a criminal matter.
 
2013-01-06 03:49:03 PM

Fark_Guy_Rob:
I have to disagree....

It's illegal to commit suicide.


What's the penalty?
 
2013-01-06 06:29:59 PM

lohphat: Fark_Guy_Rob:
I have to disagree....

It's illegal to commit suicide.

What's the penalty?


death
 
2013-01-06 10:33:37 PM
I feel safer.
 
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