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(IT News Australia)   Female IT grads can now expect to earn more money than their male counterparts in 2013. Yes, IT departments will now pay almost anything just to actually see a woman   (itnews.com.au) divider line 78
    More: Cool, equal pay, I-CT, male counterparts, big data  
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1245 clicks; posted to Business » on 05 Jan 2013 at 10:16 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-05 10:29:14 AM  
So it's bad when men earn more, but "cool" when women earn more?

What?
 
2013-01-05 10:30:45 AM  
As an HR manager once told me, "It doesn't cost extra to hire pretty."

/not counting the lawsuits of course
 
2013-01-05 10:35:11 AM  

Kaiku: So it's bad when men earn more, but "cool" when women earn more?

What?


Yeah, the tone of this article would be different if it went the other way. Especially:

FTFA: Noblet said he knew of specific cases where companies had sought only women for IT roles.

Which would be an accusation if it were about seeking out men, while here it is just an interesting factoid.
 
2013-01-05 10:42:04 AM  

LouDobbsAwaaaay: FTFA: Noblet said he knew of specific cases where companies had sought only women for IT roles.

Which would be an accusation if it were about seeking out men, while here it is just an interesting factoid.


I bet it was an affirmative action thing in order to take on a fed contract.
 
2013-01-05 10:42:28 AM  

LouDobbsAwaaaay: Kaiku: So it's bad when men earn more, but "cool" when women earn more?

What?

Yeah, the tone of this article would be different if it went the other way. Especially:

FTFA: Noblet said he knew of specific cases where companies had sought only women for IT roles.

Which would be an accusation if it were about seeking out men, while here it is just an interesting factoid.


Gosh, you mean it's different when a group that has been subjected to a long history of invidious discrimination finally achieves or exceeds parity than when a group that has been doing the discrimination stays on top? Well, holy fark, knock me over with a feather.
 
2013-01-05 10:45:23 AM  
However female computer science graduates earned a median starting salary of $55,000 in 2012, compared to a median starting salary of $52,000 for men. During the year the gap in the sector increased by 8.7 percentage points.
But it's not all good news for women in IT. An Australian Computer Society study last year found women may start out earning more than their male counterparts, but they typically lose ground over
time
.
Women with seven to 10 years' experience earn a median salary of $85,000, compared with men's $91,500, according to the ACS, while women with 20 to 25 years' experience can expect to earn $106,800 compared with their male counterparts' $120,000.


... Reporter, if this is the first year women are earning more than their male counterparts, then WTF are you using data from women who started 10 to 25 years ago as proof that the same thing will happen to these women in 10-25 years?
This is the same type of thinking that leads someone to look at those charts about old people being anti-gay compared to young people, and suddenly think "gosh, there's something about getting old that makes you turn anti-gay." No, dumbass, there's something about being born in the 1920s that makes you that way.
 
2013-01-05 10:51:00 AM  

Theaetetus: LouDobbsAwaaaay: Kaiku: So it's bad when men earn more, but "cool" when women earn more?

What?

Yeah, the tone of this article would be different if it went the other way. Especially:

FTFA: Noblet said he knew of specific cases where companies had sought only women for IT roles.

Which would be an accusation if it were about seeking out men, while here it is just an interesting factoid.

Gosh, you mean it's different when a group that has been subjected to a long history of invidious discrimination finally achieves or exceeds parity than when a group that has been doing the discrimination stays on top? Well, holy fark, knock me over with a feather.


Not as much "different" as it is that equality is not what most people want even though they jump up and down screaming EQUALITY. They want punishment of a certain group, race, or class of people and do it under the guise of equality.
 
2013-01-05 10:53:40 AM  
friend of mine just finished a liberal arts degree, and is now doing project management for one of the big outsourcing firms. in her group of a couple dozen, she's the only woman.

she's enjoying how all her coworkers bend over backwards for her.
 
2013-01-05 10:57:53 AM  
As the only straight white male in my company, I find this appalling.
 
2013-01-05 10:58:25 AM  

Slappajo: Theaetetus: LouDobbsAwaaaay: Kaiku: So it's bad when men earn more, but "cool" when women earn more?

What?

Yeah, the tone of this article would be different if it went the other way. Especially:

FTFA: Noblet said he knew of specific cases where companies had sought only women for IT roles.

Which would be an accusation if it were about seeking out men, while here it is just an interesting factoid.

Gosh, you mean it's different when a group that has been subjected to a long history of invidious discrimination finally achieves or exceeds parity than when a group that has been doing the discrimination stays on top? Well, holy fark, knock me over with a feather.

Not as much "different" as it is that equality is not what most people want even though they jump up and down screaming EQUALITY. They want punishment of a certain group, race, or class of people and do it under the guise of equality.


Really? Who are these mythical "most people" you're referring to? Are any of them here to speak for themselves, or are you just building a strawman? Can you at least provide explicit, verifiable and published quotes - not paraphrased anecdotes from someone you met once, we don't know her, she's in Canada?
 
2013-01-05 10:59:00 AM  

dumbobruni: friend of mine just finished a liberal arts degree, and is now doing project management for one of the big outsourcing firms. in her group of a couple dozen, she's the only woman.

she's enjoying how all her coworkers bend over backwards for her.


That's the weirdest sex position ever.
 
2013-01-05 11:00:47 AM  

Theaetetus: dumbobruni: friend of mine just finished a liberal arts degree, and is now doing project management for one of the big outsourcing firms. in her group of a couple dozen, she's the only woman.

she's enjoying how all her coworkers bend over backwards for her.

That's the weirdest sex position ever.


The dirty exorcist.
 
2013-01-05 11:09:03 AM  
Not many female engineers in my graduating class. They get a lot of attention from everyone. I've helped them on occasion, but being 30 and them 20, they're like little sisters to me, not potential fark buddies.

/old
 
2013-01-05 11:11:00 AM  

Theaetetus: Slappajo: Theaetetus: LouDobbsAwaaaay: Kaiku: So it's bad when men earn more, but "cool" when women earn more?

What?

Yeah, the tone of this article would be different if it went the other way. Especially:

FTFA: Noblet said he knew of specific cases where companies had sought only women for IT roles.

Which would be an accusation if it were about seeking out men, while here it is just an interesting factoid.

Gosh, you mean it's different when a group that has been subjected to a long history of invidious discrimination finally achieves or exceeds parity than when a group that has been doing the discrimination stays on top? Well, holy fark, knock me over with a feather.

Not as much "different" as it is that equality is not what most people want even though they jump up and down screaming EQUALITY. They want punishment of a certain group, race, or class of people and do it under the guise of equality.

Really? Who are these mythical "most people" you're referring to? Are any of them here to speak for themselves, or are you just building a strawman? Can you at least provide explicit, verifiable and published quotes - not paraphrased anecdotes from someone you met once, we don't know her, she's in Canada?


Aside from all the verifiable published quotes in this article?
 
2013-01-05 11:13:55 AM  

serial_crusher: Theaetetus: Slappajo: Theaetetus: LouDobbsAwaaaay: Kaiku: So it's bad when men earn more, but "cool" when women earn more?

What?

Yeah, the tone of this article would be different if it went the other way. Especially:

FTFA: Noblet said he knew of specific cases where companies had sought only women for IT roles.

Which would be an accusation if it were about seeking out men, while here it is just an interesting factoid.

Gosh, you mean it's different when a group that has been subjected to a long history of invidious discrimination finally achieves or exceeds parity than when a group that has been doing the discrimination stays on top? Well, holy fark, knock me over with a feather.

Not as much "different" as it is that equality is not what most people want even though they jump up and down screaming EQUALITY. They want punishment of a certain group, race, or class of people and do it under the guise of equality.

Really? Who are these mythical "most people" you're referring to? Are any of them here to speak for themselves, or are you just building a strawman? Can you at least provide explicit, verifiable and published quotes - not paraphrased anecdotes from someone you met once, we don't know her, she's in Canada?

Aside from all the verifiable published quotes in this article?


There are two quotes in this article, both from the same guy, Peter Noblet. And neither of them say anything about wanting to punish a certain group, race, or class.
So, yeah. Aside from "all the verifiable published quotes in this article" since they say nothing of the sort.
 
2013-01-05 11:20:03 AM  

Theaetetus: LouDobbsAwaaaay: Kaiku: So it's bad when men earn more, but "cool" when women earn more?

What?

Yeah, the tone of this article would be different if it went the other way. Especially:

FTFA: Noblet said he knew of specific cases where companies had sought only women for IT roles.

Which would be an accusation if it were about seeking out men, while here it is just an interesting factoid.

Gosh, you mean it's different when a group that has been subjected to a long history of invidious discrimination finally achieves or exceeds parity than when a group that has been doing the discrimination stays on top? Well, holy fark, knock me over with a feather.


No. History doesn't exist. The world as we know it sprang into existence yesterday, and everybody has always had equal opportunities. Anybody who says otherwise is a politically correct librul.
 
2013-01-05 11:24:23 AM  
Female IT grads can now expect to earn more money than their male counterparts in 2013. Yes, IT departments will now pay almost anything just to actually see a woman

FTFY Subby
 
2013-01-05 11:27:32 AM  

ajgeek: Not many female engineers in my graduating class. They get a lot of attention from everyone. I've helped them on occasion, but being 30 and them 20, they're like little sisters to me, not potential fark buddies.

/old


Yeah, blame it on being "old." That's the reason.
 
2013-01-05 11:35:58 AM  

Theaetetus: Gosh, you mean it's different when a group that has been subjected to a long history of invidious discrimination finally achieves or exceeds parity than when a group that has been doing the discrimination stays on top? Well, holy fark, knock me over with a feather.


So you agree it's OK to discriminate based on gender.
 
2013-01-05 11:36:00 AM  
Welcome to Liberal Policies realized. Why do any of you have a problem with this? They should only hire females from here on out whenever possible.
 
2013-01-05 11:39:56 AM  

ajgeek: Not many female engineers in my graduating class. They get a lot of attention from everyone. I've helped them on occasion, but being 30 and them 20, they're like little sisters to me, not potential fark buddies.

/old


I feel your pain man. I'm finishing my undergrad now after working most of my adult life, I'm helping students in chemistry and biology that are literally half my age. I wouldn't even think about it, first because I really love my wife, second because chicks that age be crazy for the most part.

/40 in May
 
2013-01-05 11:41:32 AM  
it will all even out when she has a baby, takes a 12 week maternity leave and then quits doing the "hours 41 and beyond" work after her return.
 
2013-01-05 11:42:37 AM  

DrewCurtisJr: Theaetetus: Gosh, you mean it's different when a group that has been subjected to a long history of invidious discrimination finally achieves or exceeds parity than when a group that has been doing the discrimination stays on top? Well, holy fark, knock me over with a feather.

So you agree it's OK to discriminate based on gender.


Under certain circumstances, of course.
 
2013-01-05 11:48:49 AM  
My class ended up at about 3% female at graduation, where the hell is the 18% median being maintained? I'm not at all surprised about the starting wage difference though, face it this is still a very male dominated field so any women who want into it are likely quite determined and their marks/capabilities show that. My lab partner was one of that 3% and while she didn't come in with the same background as I did she ended up with the higher marks (sorta my doing as well for getting lazy near the end).

Over all I say: Good, sausage parties start to really smell after a while.
 
2013-01-05 11:49:06 AM  

DrewCurtisJr: Theaetetus: Gosh, you mean it's different when a group that has been subjected to a long history of invidious discrimination finally achieves or exceeds parity than when a group that has been doing the discrimination stays on top? Well, holy fark, knock me over with a feather.

So you agree it's OK to discriminate based on gender.


Yes, probably because I've actually read the court cases about it and have more than a "hurr durr equal protection" understanding of what those decisions and laws  actuallymean. The reality is significantly more nuanced than your glib statement.
 
2013-01-05 11:53:58 AM  

ajgeek: Not many female engineers in my graduating class. They get a lot of attention from everyone. I've helped them on occasion, but being 30 and them 20, they're like little sisters to me, not potential fark buddies.

/old


Similar situation, except for the last part was reversed.

/not that old
 
2013-01-05 11:55:02 AM  

Theaetetus: Yes, probably because I've actually read the court cases about it and have more than a "hurr durr equal protection" understanding of what those decisions and laws  actuallymean. The reality is significantly more nuanced than your glib statement.


Court cases? So because companies can legally get away with it that makes it OK in your mind?
 
2013-01-05 11:56:18 AM  

Nemo's Brother: Welcome to Liberal Policies realized. Why do any of you have a problem with this? They should only hire females from here on out whenever possible.


2/10
 
2013-01-05 12:10:22 PM  
This isn't anything new. In a lot of companies women have been getting hired over men in IT roles despite skill level and experience for years. However what I have learned from my own work experience, and from what my other friends have told me, is that they tend to leave after a few years or stay in positions with a fixed schedule, because whether it is because of family obligations or other reasons, women tend not to be as willing to work on call and off hours as men are.
 
2013-01-05 12:10:41 PM  
Anecdotally, our Helpless Desk appears to be about 33/67 F/M, with equal distribution of competence. Our deskside support in my building has been all male. Business analysts and DBA's are all male, but the management levels I've worked with are 83% female (with only two obstructive idiots in total, equally distributed across the sexes; the rest have been competent and useful).

If you widen the definition of IT to metrics and data analysis people (my realm), anecdotally I've worked with more competent women over my career than men. History majors have been the best, actually, because they are trained to piece together a story from primary sources. The only business data analysis manager in our firm is me, female, and I am of course awesome.
 
2013-01-05 12:14:02 PM  

DrewCurtisJr: Theaetetus: Yes, probably because I've actually read the court cases about it and have more than a "hurr durr equal protection" understanding of what those decisions and laws  actuallymean. The reality is significantly more nuanced than your glib statement.

Court cases? So because companies can legally get away with it that makes it OK in your mind?


Supreme Court cases. Amazing what adding a few words will do to instill nuance and layers of meanings, something you have no appreciation for.
 
2013-01-05 12:23:41 PM  

LouDobbsAwaaaay: Kaiku: So it's bad when men earn more, but "cool" when women earn more?

What?

Yeah, the tone of this article would be different if it went the other way. Especially:

FTFA: Noblet said he knew of specific cases where companies had sought only women for IT roles.

Which would be an accusation if it were about seeking out men, while here it is just an interesting factoid.


If the company or department was 90% women and they were seeking a guy I don't really think it would be an accusation.

Context matters.

In my area at work there are roughly 70 people and only 3 women, it's a sausagefest and i believe we are the worse for it. Diversity brings different viewpoints.
 
2013-01-05 12:25:21 PM  

ajgeek: Not many female engineers in my graduating class. They get a lot of attention from everyone. I've helped them on occasion, but being 30 and them 20, they're like little sisters to me, not potential fark buddies.

/old


1/2 + 7
 
2013-01-05 12:28:43 PM  

Theaetetus: DrewCurtisJr: Theaetetus: Gosh, you mean it's different when a group that has been subjected to a long history of invidious discrimination finally achieves or exceeds parity than when a group that has been doing the discrimination stays on top? Well, holy fark, knock me over with a feather.

So you agree it's OK to discriminate based on gender.

Yes, probably because I've actually read the court cases about it and have more than a "hurr durr equal protection" understanding of what those decisions and laws  actuallymean. The reality is significantly more nuanced than your glib statement.


So the way to ensure equality is to discriminate based on physical characteristics and not ability? Got it.
 
2013-01-05 12:50:12 PM  
Just a different voice asking if you have turned it off and back on again.
 
2013-01-05 12:51:01 PM  

Theaetetus: Supreme Court cases. Amazing what adding a few words will do to instill nuance and layers of meanings, something you have no appreciation for.


Like I said before, because something is legal that makes it OK.

No more complaining about the military.
 
2013-01-05 12:56:15 PM  

Slappajo: Theaetetus: DrewCurtisJr: Theaetetus: Gosh, you mean it's different when a group that has been subjected to a long history of invidious discrimination finally achieves or exceeds parity than when a group that has been doing the discrimination stays on top? Well, holy fark, knock me over with a feather.

So you agree it's OK to discriminate based on gender.

Yes, probably because I've actually read the court cases about it and have more than a "hurr durr equal protection" understanding of what those decisions and laws  actuallymean. The reality is significantly more nuanced than your glib statement.

So the way to ensure equality is to discriminate based on physical characteristics and not ability? Got it.


Actually, it's to stop discriminating based on physical characteristics and not ability. And to stop discriminating, sometimes you need to recognize that you're, you know, discriminating. So the whole "sure, we've been discriminating for a hundred years, but  now we're suddenly going to be blind to gender, and that'll fix everything heh heh heh" is disingenuous, and you know it. Or if you don't, ask any female IT grad.
 
2013-01-05 12:57:29 PM  
It's payback for all they years women earned significantly less, so I got no real problem with it.

Now in a couple hundred years we should all be judged on skills alone.
 
2013-01-05 12:57:42 PM  

DrewCurtisJr: Theaetetus: Supreme Court cases. Amazing what adding a few words will do to instill nuance and layers of meanings, something you have no appreciation for.

Like I said before, because something is legal that makes it OK.

No more complaining about the military.


You're like a parody of a conservative. Most of them actually don't hew to the "everything is a black or white dichotomy" philosophy. You should probably dial it back a few notches, or people are going to catch on to your joke too fast.
 
2013-01-05 01:00:05 PM  

Cymbal: It's payback for all they years women earned significantly less, so I got no real problem with it.

Now in a couple hundred years we should all be judged on skills alone.


Not even... As I mentioned way upthread, it's a generational thing. Now that this class seems to have achieved parity, let's see where they end up in 30 years. For example, there are now 20 women in the Senate - but they're all in their 40s-60s, so you're looking at an older cohort. Better than the oldest cohorts, but not as good as current ones. Let's see what the distribution looks like in another 20-30 years before we declare all discrimination solved forever.
 
2013-01-05 01:06:10 PM  

Theaetetus: Gosh, you mean it's different when a group that has been subjected to a long history of invidious discrimination finally achieves or exceeds parity than when a group that has been doing the discrimination stays on top? Well, holy fark, knock me over with a feather.


You think recently graduated IT workers are the ones who's been discriminating against women in the workplace?
 
2013-01-05 01:13:42 PM  

Theaetetus: You're like a parody of a conservative. Most of them actually don't hew to the "everything is a black or white dichotomy" philosophy. You should probably dial it back a few notches, or people are going to catch on to your joke too fast.


Wouldn't the best way to fight the culture of discrimination to say it is wrong in all cases and should be avoided whenever possible, even if you can legally get away with it, even if you think you have a good reason to do it. Otherwise you are validating it as an acceptable means to an end.
 
2013-01-05 01:28:13 PM  
In the US, it's all a shell game. The women co-opted the racial gaps and took it to the extreme. The women get outcome based standards while African Americans get income based standards. All it does is change the money from going from white guy to white guy to white girl to white girl.

Now, you apply the same standards to race, we'd have riot

Think about it - if a college is 60% female, the honors classes are 98% white and the athletes are 45% male, the school is guilty of discriminating against the women.

I can explain to my son why an African American child from the city gets a leg up. How do you explain that his sister should?
 
2013-01-05 01:31:13 PM  

WayToBlue: In my area at work there are roughly 70 people and only 3 women, it's a sausagefest and i believe we are the worse for it. Diversity brings different viewpoints.


Sure. But the tone of the article is that "women can expect to earn more than men" is some kind of victory. Which is a far cry from "we try to foster diversity".
 
2013-01-05 01:36:53 PM  

LouDobbsAwaaaay: WayToBlue: In my area at work there are roughly 70 people and only 3 women, it's a sausagefest and i believe we are the worse for it. Diversity brings different viewpoints.

Sure. But the tone of the article is that "women can expect to earn more than men" is some kind of victory. Which is a far cry from "we try to foster diversity".


Some journalism major's slanted opinion on the situation is hardly of any merit other then to get this conversation started.
 
2013-01-05 01:40:22 PM  

BumpInTheNight: Some journalism major's slanted opinion on the situation is hardly of any merit other then to get this conversation started.


This is an odd thing to say. "We are allowed to discuss the topic of the article, but you are BANNED from bringing up any aspect of the article itself"? Is this a new rule for Fark or something?
 
2013-01-05 01:48:12 PM  

LouDobbsAwaaaay: BumpInTheNight: Some journalism major's slanted opinion on the situation is hardly of any merit other then to get this conversation started.

This is an odd thing to say. "We are allowed to discuss the topic of the article, but you are BANNED from bringing up any aspect of the article itself"? Is this a new rule for Fark or something?


That's an odd take away from what I'd said. WayToBlue and I just enjoy the thought of more diversity in our work places, a minority within IT grads ending up at a higher average of salaries then the median of the majority male grads isn't much of mind at all and it kind of makes sense when you see first hand how that process played out. This isn't anything to do with forced 'equality' or hiring biases, its a simple situation where women in IT tend to be there because they really like the field and excel at it, therefore tend to show up within the higher spectrum of grads who happen to be male and also really into the field and excel at it.
 
2013-01-05 01:54:19 PM  

BumpInTheNight: LouDobbsAwaaaay: BumpInTheNight: Some journalism major's slanted opinion on the situation is hardly of any merit other then to get this conversation started.

This is an odd thing to say. "We are allowed to discuss the topic of the article, but you are BANNED from bringing up any aspect of the article itself"? Is this a new rule for Fark or something?

That's an odd take away from what I'd said. WayToBlue and I just enjoy the thought of more diversity in our work places, a minority within IT grads ending up at a higher average of salaries then the median of the majority male grads isn't much of mind at all and it kind of makes sense when you see first hand how that process played out. This isn't anything to do with forced 'equality' or hiring biases, its a simple situation where women in IT tend to be there because they really like the field and excel at it, therefore tend to show up within the higher spectrum of grads who happen to be male and also really into the field and excel at it.


So are your two opinions equally slanted and hardly of any merit other then to get this conversation started, or are we allowed to take them seriously, unlike the story presented in the article?
 
2013-01-05 01:55:28 PM  

ajgeek: Not many female engineers in my graduating class. They get a lot of attention from everyone. I've helped them on occasion, but being 30 and them 20, they're like little sisters to me, not potential fark buddies.

/old


30 / 2 + 7 = 22

Yep, hands off the 20 year olds.
 
2013-01-05 01:58:31 PM  

LouDobbsAwaaaay: BumpInTheNight: LouDobbsAwaaaay: BumpInTheNight: Some journalism major's slanted opinion on the situation is hardly of any merit other then to get this conversation started.

This is an odd thing to say. "We are allowed to discuss the topic of the article, but you are BANNED from bringing up any aspect of the article itself"? Is this a new rule for Fark or something?

That's an odd take away from what I'd said. WayToBlue and I just enjoy the thought of more diversity in our work places, a minority within IT grads ending up at a higher average of salaries then the median of the majority male grads isn't much of mind at all and it kind of makes sense when you see first hand how that process played out. This isn't anything to do with forced 'equality' or hiring biases, its a simple situation where women in IT tend to be there because they really like the field and excel at it, therefore tend to show up within the higher spectrum of grads who happen to be male and also really into the field and excel at it.

So are your two opinions equally slanted and hardly of any merit other then to get this conversation started, or are we allowed to take them seriously, unlike the story presented in the article?


Well you and the journalist looking for clicks can bicker about equality and victories, we'll be oggling our new co-workers' ...input, cheers.
 
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