starsrift: From what I understand, 90% of beat cop work is "repeat customers" - locations and people that they come to know as problems. I wouldn't understand that as turning them into dickheads - but that would give me reason to understand they are much more concerned, especially in their line of work, about the unfamiliar, and treat new strangeness much more cautiously.

For some (most?) it's actually all about the WARRIOR MINDSET.

Koodz: At one point, after the officer questioned him about the number of keys on his key ring, Ocak complained, "Why are you being so rude to me?"

Longley responded: "I don't have to be nice to you."

Wait....what's the proper number of keys on a key ring? I have three. Is that too few or too many? I'd better stay out of Seattle just in case it's the wrong number.

Endive Wombat: Madbassist1: lack of warmth: Although, I think it has more to do with protecting the insurance companies from having to pay morans for letting their cars be stolen so easily.

95% of auto-related laws (including the new ultra-strict dui laws) are about protecting insurance companies. Believe that, friend, cause it. is. farking. true.

I do not necessarily see that as a bad thing.  Because of heavy lobbying, we have safer cars, safer roads...


It's the means that matter, not the ends.

/seat-belts too

Oh, Sean Whitcomb. He's not exactly known for his good decision-making skills.

chairborne: clearly police officers should be the only people with guns in America.

Go ahead and point a gun at a cop and tell us how that works out for you.

/idiot

Koodz: Between the armor, steroids, taser, stick, pepper spray, and ability to call for backup, I can see no reason for a police officer to ever PUNCH someone. Yes, hitting someone with a stick is more likely to cause injury than a punch, but there's something so visceral about balling up a fist and punching somebody in the face. It's too intimate to be a police action. Does that make sense?

perfect sense, i think what you are trying to articulate, is that a cop who punches someone, is really a guy who wants to punch someone, who happens to be a cop, but a cop who uses his baton is a cop, who is using his tools appropriately.... right? i think i know what you mean.

I think that any time any politician has a town hall meeting that he should be handcuffed to the podium for flight risk reasons.

ReverendJasen: No matter how progressive a town might be, law enforcement always attracts authoritarian douchebags and bullies.

Portland, OR nods approvingly.

fisker: Dinjiin: hipster city or not

We need a bunch of good old rednecks up here to teach us how to live while sticking their heterosexual cocks up our skinny assholes.

I almost killed myself once when I read on Fark that I was hipster. Being in a hipster city and all. Learning the definition from old stupid men that look like women who live in Kentucky.

The only common definition of hipster is "somebody or something I personally don't like" so I wouldn't feel too bad about some rednecks thinking you come from a city of them.

mike_d85: Dinjiin: On par for SPD.  Not only to they "not have to be nice", they excel at it.  Never understood how such a progressive city ended up with such a Gestapo-like police force.

As I understand it Seattle has a bunch of nerds and hippies. These groups of people tend to irritate the everloving piss out of anyone trying to control a situation that attracts attention or needs investigation. Nerds continually ask "why" for every little thing like a 5 year old or start quoting laws out of context and internet fighting. Hippies start rambling out of date psudo cosmic yammerings about barriers and community or yelling things that they think socialist revolutionaries would say.

What you end up with is cops with absolutely NO patience for anyone or anything.

/plus too much coffee

This is it in a nutshell. Chicken or the Egg. Hipster douchebags and Liberal shiatbags who do nothing but yell and chant "fark THE POLICE" and the cops who finally got tired of their shiat.

Some day, people might realize that good or bad cop; you show them some respect and be polite and short with your answers. You tend to leave with a small ticket or a warning. You reap what you sow, assholes.

At least he wasn't in Utah. He would have been charged with a DUI too.

Link

And people wonder why I hate the police.

I have yet to meet a good cop. This includes my brother. Dirty as all hell.

FTP.

Madbassist1: The My Little Pony Killer: fisker: Dinjiin: hipster city or not

We need a bunch of good old rednecks up here to teach us how to live while sticking their heterosexual cocks up our skinny assholes.

I almost killed myself once when I read on Fark that I was hipster. Being in a hipster city and all. Learning the definition from old stupid men that look like women who live in Kentucky.

The only common definition of hipster is "somebody or something I personally don't like" so I wouldn't feel too bad about some rednecks thinking you come from a city of them.

You are deriding people for classifying you...by classifying them. Hypocrite much?

No, not really. Just using language they understand.

starsrift: jmr61: I think some people need to RTFA:

"At the time, Ocak was being questioned and was not under arrest, according to police Sgt. Sean Whitcomb. The incident escalated when Ocak resisted the officers' attempts to handcuff him for flight and officer-safety reasons, Whitcomb said."

I'm no police apologist but if they cops want to handcuff you and take you to jail resisting them is stupid. You will ALWAYS lose. Go to the station quietly and sort out your problems with them through a lawyer.

Idiot.

"No, we're not arresting you, we just want to cuff you."
What the fark? No, I would totally not be comfortable with that. Either arrest and cuff me, or get the fark out of my face.

They can legally do this

/ the Bill of Rights does not apply to you, citizen

Dinjiin: On par for SPD.  Not only to they "not have to be nice", they excel at it.  Never understood how such a progressive city ended up with such a Gestapo-like police force.

Up until 1970, when the first big postwar depression hit Seattle, it was not a progressive city in any way. Other than some hip downtownsters, it was just as cookie-cutter suburbanite as anywhere else at the time. The depression combined with the rise of the countercultural tech industry was what really changed that.

NutWrench: jmr61: The incident escalated when Ocak resisted the officers' attempts to handcuff him for flight and officer-safety reasons, Whitcomb said."

Fark that. If you put handcuffs on me, then I am clearly not free to leave and am therefore under arrest.
They better have charged him with something.

They did. Assaulting an officer, which was dismissed. Why dismissed charges aren't held against the arresting office I'll never understand....

(from the article) "Sgt. Sean Whitcomb said the department already has reviewed the incident twice, with the officer's commanders and an assistant chief concluding no violations of law or department policy occurred when four officers took Isaac Ocak to the pavement after learning he had a prior felony conviction and had been tagged in the department's computer as being "assaultive to officers." However, the department could not provide an incident in which Ocak had ever been so. At the time, Ocak was being questioned and was not under arrest, according to police Sgt. Sean Whitcomb."

A I think this is the real problem. In any large population of employees, there are going to be a subset of dooshbags and idiots. The issue here, (besides a law abiding citizen being abused and assaulted) is how this dooshbaggery and idiocy is dealt with.

In this case, and many cases like it, you have clear evidence and assault and abusive behavior. You have a armed "trained professional" unnecessary escalating a situation. And when they abuse their power and trust, have it documented for the world to see, the police force covers it up, white washes it, sweeps it under the rug, and various other metaphors for enabling and promoting poor, abusive, illegal, and dangerous behavior.

Dinjiin: On par for SPD.  Not only to they "not have to be nice", they excel at it.  Never understood how such a progressive city ended up with such a Gestapo-like police force.

Because they ARE a progressive city.

Can't be progressive, if you can't keep the citizens in line through threat of force, can you?

Guy is lucky they didn't just shoot him on sight. That happens here far too often.

xmasbaby: (from the article) "Sgt. Sean Whitcomb said the department already has reviewed the incident twice, with the officer's commanders and an assistant chief concluding no violations of law or department policy occurred when four officers took Isaac Ocak to the pavement after learning he had a prior felony conviction and had been tagged in the department's computer as being "assaultive to officers." However, the department could not provide an incident in which Ocak had ever been so. At the time, Ocak was being questioned and was not under arrest, according to police Sgt. Sean Whitcomb."

A I think this is the real problem. In any large population of employees, there are going to be a subset of dooshbags and idiots. The issue here, (besides a law abiding citizen being abused and assaulted) is how this dooshbaggery and idiocy is dealt with.

In this case, and many cases like it, you have clear evidence and assault and abusive behavior. You have a armed "trained professional" unnecessary escalating a situation. And when they abuse their power and trust, have it documented for the world to see, the police force covers it up, white washes it, sweeps it under the rug, and various other metaphors for enabling and promoting poor, abusive, illegal, and dangerous behavior.

It's insidious the way they conclude, "no violations of law or public policy took place". In other words, they're stating that they believe they have the right to do this to anyone, at any time, for any reason, because that IS the department policy. I hope these farks get cancer.

Endive Wombat: xmasbaby: (from the article) "Sgt. Sean Whitcomb said the department already has reviewed the incident twice, with the officer's commanders and an assistant chief concluding no violations of law or department policy occurred when four officers took Isaac Ocak to the pavement after learning he had a prior felony conviction and had been tagged in the department's computer as being "assaultive to officers." However, the department could not provide an incident in which Ocak had ever been so. At the time, Ocak was being questioned and was not under arrest, according to police Sgt. Sean Whitcomb."

A I think this is the real problem. In any large population of employees, there are going to be a subset of dooshbags and idiots. The issue here, (besides a law abiding citizen being abused and assaulted) is how this dooshbaggery and idiocy is dealt with.

In this case, and many cases like it, you have clear evidence and assault and abusive behavior. You have a armed "trained professional" unnecessary escalating a situation. And when they abuse their power and trust, have it documented for the world to see, the police force covers it up, white washes it, sweeps it under the rug, and various other metaphors for enabling and promoting poor, abusive, illegal, and dangerous behavior.

With the way technology is progressing with personal dash cams, cell phones, cloud based storage, social networking and the like, I suspect that over the coming years, these "good 'ol boy" clubs of corruption and coverups are going to come to light, be squashed out, and the court of public opinion will drive these assholes into retirement or out of town so to speak.  Unfortunately a lot of people have to unnecessarily suffer until then.

Unfortunately, I think they'll just continue to make it illegal to film or photograph an officer performing his duties, and courts will refuse to allow it admitted as evidence. I mean, look at this case. They were caught outright. They don't even feel a need to deny that they took this guy to the pavement for no reason, and he wasn't even under arrest. Their assertion is that they have every right to do this to any citizen.

Sorry to anyone who pays taxes in Seattle, but I hope this guy gets a sympathetic jury to award him millions. I think it's the only way departments like this will learn.

The only thing that will force cops to clean up their act is the public, en mass, refusing to cooperate with the cops.

As I told the public relations officer of my city's police force, if you won't help me, I won't expect help, and I will no longer ask for help. Moreover, I'm finished helping cops with anything.

Quid pro quo, Clarice.

born_yesterday: Sorry to anyone who pays taxes in Seattle, but I hope this guy gets a sympathetic jury to award him millions. I think it's the only way departments like this will learn.

Even that won't change anything, IMHO. If we make police officers even somewhat PERSONALLY liable (eg. wage garnishment to pay court settlements, job termination if necessary) for really egregious crimes, we might see some real change.

Civilians should start carrying handcuffs for bad cops.

Dinjiin: On par for SPD.  Not only to they "not have to be nice", they excel at it.  Never understood how such a progressive city ended up with such a Gestapo-like police force.

And the SPD wonders why the Justice Department's riding herd on them...

mhedstrom: These guys better not ever come to the mountains of Colorado in the winter. They'd have a whole lot of "questioning" to do with *everybody* leaving their cars running if it's a short enough period of time.

Pussies. The only time I warm my car up, or leave it running, is to melt the ice on the windshield and defrost it a little before I go anywhere. There's this thing called a "coat," see, that people should wear when they go outside in the winter.......

Naw, that's too hard. Let's just leave our vehicle running for 20 minutes so we don't have to deal with anything that might expose us to the outside world.

As a retired police officer, and I'm assuming most of the criminal apologists here have not been, this is excellent police work. His car was running, and that is a common tactic by criminals, as he is one. Suspects coming off the car when you are interviewing them, or a sudden flexing of the muscles indicates a desire to fight or run. So they put him down. And yes, he resisted arrest, and bit the police officer, and he got punched for it. He's obviously a dickhead, and anyone else in that position would just let the officers do their job, and move on. But no, he had to be a dick and resist and not comply. This was perfect police work, and if you can't see it, you have never worn a badge, or are a criminal apologist.

/high five to the officers for a job well done.

And no scumbag, he doesn't have to be nice to you at all. Not that he was being mean, he was just doing good police investigation. Man up you little biatch. What did you expect him to do, give you a bj and some flowers? ffs.

ParaHandy: starsrift: jmr61: I think some people need to RTFA:

"At the time, Ocak was being questioned and was not under arrest, according to police Sgt. Sean Whitcomb. The incident escalated when Ocak resisted the officers' attempts to handcuff him for flight and officer-safety reasons, Whitcomb said."

I'm no police apologist but if they cops want to handcuff you and take you to jail resisting them is stupid. You will ALWAYS lose. Go to the station quietly and sort out your problems with them through a lawyer.

Idiot.

"No, we're not arresting you, we just want to cuff you."
What the fark? No, I would totally not be comfortable with that. Either arrest and cuff me, or get the fark out of my face.

They can legally do this

/ the Bill of Rights does not apply to you, citizen

That is the result of allowing people to apply it selectively.
They give themselves all the rights and spare you none.

/if you disbelieve, just see how well those same rules are observed when a politician is using them.
/they can say anything to anyone, can own any gun and carry it anywhere, have a right to privacy, to a fair trial, to voting, etc...
/be a black teen and run into the cops, suddenly its a different story.

greggerm: Is Seattle really a city with the climate cool enough to leave your car running to keep it warm?

Weather almanac for Seattle on December 29, 2010 shows a high of 43 and a low of 37... hardly "warm up the car" temperatures.

Hmm.

You are forgetting the large number of California weather wimp douche bags you moved there over the past 15 years.

NewbornRook: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: NewbornRook: mike_d85: Dinjiin: On par for SPD.  Not only to they "not have to be nice", they excel at it.  Never understood how such a progressive city ended up with such a Gestapo-like police force.

As I understand it Seattle has a bunch of nerds and hippies. These groups of people tend to irritate the everloving piss out of anyone trying to control a situation that attracts attention or needs investigation. Nerds continually ask "why" for every little thing like a 5 year old or start quoting laws out of context and internet fighting. Hippies start rambling out of date psudo cosmic yammerings about barriers and community or yelling things that they think socialist revolutionaries would say.

What you end up with is cops with absolutely NO patience for anyone or anything.

/plus too much coffee

I was going to pose the question "If you had to be a cop in one of the most hipster populated cities in the country, do you think YOU would be nice after sometime dealing with those tards?"

But I digress, part of law enforcement is dealing with all types of people, its just a shame the career attracts the wrong type to deal with said people.

I talk a lot with cops (we all hang out in shopping center parking lots a lot). Interestingly, A huge percentage of the cops in the Tustin PD have college degrees - in Psychology. Smart. They also attend mandatory continuing education seminars in conflict resolution, de-escalation, etc.

I think that's why more and more departments are starting to require college degrees. Out here in CO though, the majority still only require a HS diploma. The conflict seminars part is interesting, I don't think I've ever heard of departments requiring that type of training. Just normally the physical force and verbal judo techniques.

The cops in Santa Ana are more like you describe, and Irvine cops are just assholes, but Tustin and, I think, Orange cops are much better trained. I've seen, twice, a Tustin cop talk down a drunk/high guy waving a small knife around (no one stabbed, no one directly threatened), confiscate the knife, and drive the guy in to the local jail to sleep it off, all done without touching the guy until they had to slip the cuffs on. Yes, they explained exactly what they had to do (cuffs) and why. Both got court dates for public intoxication, and ended up with mandatory counseling, but neither were booked on weapons charges.

OTOH, heard 2nd hand (from 3 different people, two of whom said they saw it), there was an instance about 6 months ago where some gangster wannabe kid had a sidewalk argument with his GF, slugged her to the ground and stalked off in a huff. Someone called Tustin PD and two cars showed up. The wannabe started putting his hand into and out of his shirt (gang signal that "I'm armed") and one cop caught a glimpse of what looked like a semi-automatic pistol. The idiot refused to raise his hands and kept advancing towards them. Eight shots, all in the torso. Yeah, he died. The "gun" turned out to be a farking realistic tattoo of a .45 ACP.

You do not mess with Tustin PD.

Krab: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Dinjiin: On par for SPD.  Not only to they "not have to be nice", they excel at it.  Never understood how such a progressive city ended up with such a Gestapo-like police force.

You don't?? Seriously???

+1 seems like no matter which extreme side you swing there is always a Gestapo-like police force

The "progressive" mindset 99 times out of 100 seems to revolve around the concept of the Daddy State, where government takes up the cudgel of the "little guy" against Big Bad Business. Government is seen as a wonderful tool for accomplishing virtually any task.

Graduate-level Administrative Systems and Political Science courses often look at organizations as analogs of living organisms. As with all things of an "organic" nature they either grow or die. They never just stay the same. Government, as any organization, therefore, tends to grow. In a "progressive" political atmosphere it tends to grow faster. Since government's primary reason for existing and its tool of action is the monopolistic, deliberate and measured use of force (ultimately: deadly force), the arms of government that exert that force tend to become, over time, more overbearing as their bureaucracies grow larger, and their responsibilities grow wider and wider. Also, the cops take their "cues" for action from the local perception of governmental responsibilities. IOW, badass cops in a "progressive" town are not as rare as you might think. It's a natural outgrowth of the dynamic.

There needs to be an extralegal civic organization that punishes police for this shiat. I bet internal affairs departments would be more willing to go after their own if failure to do so meant some cop, somewhere in their city, would be killed.

Live in Seattle.

It is NOT cold enough here to merit keeping your car running. The dude was obviously planning on stealing shiat, and him having a criminal records makes that plain as day.

Did the officers handle this well? No. But I don't believe the guy they arrested was innocent given he had left his car idling.

NutWrench: jmr61: The incident escalated when Ocak resisted the officers' attempts to handcuff him for flight and officer-safety reasons, Whitcomb said."

Fark that. If you put handcuffs on me, then I am clearly not free to leave and am therefore under arrest.
They better have charged him with something.

Someone doesn't know the legal definition of arrest.

/it's nutwrench

Bit'O'Gristle: As a retired police officer, and I'm assuming most of the criminal apologists here have not been, this is excellent police work. His car was running, and that is a common tactic by criminals, as he is one. Suspects coming off the car when you are interviewing them, or a sudden flexing of the muscles indicates a desire to fight or run. So they put him down. And yes, he resisted arrest, and bit the police officer, and he got punched for it. He's obviously a dickhead, and anyone else in that position would just let the officers do their job, and move on. But no, he had to be a dick and resist and not comply. This was perfect police work, and if you can't see it, you have never worn a badge, or are a criminal apologist.

/high five to the officers for a job well done.

You're a cock. Stick your fingers in my mouth, and I'm trying to bite them clean off. Perfect police work? This is abusive at best, criminal at worst.