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(The Newspaper)   Courts in Florida split on the most burning question of our time: whether motorists should be subjected to stop-and-search simply because they repainted their car a new color   ( thenewspaper.com) divider line
    More: Florida, Courts of Florida, Department of Highways, motorists, vehicle registrations, traffic stops  
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5214 clicks; posted to Main » on 04 Jan 2013 at 11:57 PM (4 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-05 02:13:29 AM  

Gyrfalcon: sno man: jaylectricity: Every one knows that cops run random plates just for something to do. That's why I always turn off the road when a cop pulls in behind me. I don't want him getting any ideas.
CruiserTwelve: Cops run plates at random all the time. Checking to see if the car is stolen, the plates are being misused, warrants for the registered owner, etc.

Fair enough...
How's that whole "Land of the Free" thing working out?

??

Police have always been allowed to run your plates. Just like they can follow you for 50 miles down the road for no reason at all to see if you do something. "Land of the free" doesn't mean "Land where cops don't exist till YOU want them."

You're not one of those ones who always post "When seconds count, the police are minutes away!" crap, are you? Cuz this is what's known as "proactive policing"--checking to see if a car is stolen BEFORE someone reports it stolen, you know? Would you prefer the cop wait till the car gets reported, or would you be the one whining that "The cop saw that car driving down the road and didn't do anything! What a lazy pig!"


I do believe that the phrase "Oh snap!" can be used here.
 
2013-01-05 02:14:19 AM  

Smeggy Smurf: [i142.photobucket.com image 640x480]

OK, what color is this truck? Go ahead Mr. Pig, what color is it?


If no plates are visible then that I have no problem with the police stopping the vehicle.
 
2013-01-05 02:18:47 AM  
I bet that cop was using SCMODS.
 
2013-01-05 02:18:57 AM  

Gyrfalcon: sno man: jaylectricity: Every one knows that cops run random plates just for something to do. That's why I always turn off the road when a cop pulls in behind me. I don't want him getting any ideas.
CruiserTwelve: Cops run plates at random all the time. Checking to see if the car is stolen, the plates are being misused, warrants for the registered owner, etc.

Fair enough...
How's that whole "Land of the Free" thing working out?

??

Police have always been allowed to run your plates. Just like they can follow you for 50 miles down the road for no reason at all to see if you do something. "Land of the free" doesn't mean "Land where cops don't exist till YOU want them."

You're not one of those ones who always post "When seconds count, the police are minutes away!" crap, are you? Cuz this is what's known as "proactive policing"--checking to see if a car is stolen BEFORE someone reports it stolen, you know? Would you prefer the cop wait till the car gets reported, or would you be the one whining that "The cop saw that car driving down the road and didn't do anything! What a lazy pig!"


How the fark would a cop know that the car has been stolen until it has been reported? Is he/she supposed to psychic as well?
 
2013-01-05 02:28:24 AM  

Mock26: sno man: jaylectricity: Every one knows that cops run random plates just for something to do. That's why I always turn off the road when a cop pulls in behind me. I don't want him getting any ideas.
CruiserTwelve: Cops run plates at random all the time. Checking to see if the car is stolen, the plates are being misused, warrants for the registered owner, etc.

Fair enough...
How's that whole "Land of the Free" thing working out?

Are the cops where you live not allowed to run plates?


They can, but to pull you over they have a very short list of reasons, which, oddly would include the wrong colour bit this guy was pulled over for, but should not have been.
 
2013-01-05 02:34:05 AM  

sno man: Mock26: sno man: jaylectricity: Every one knows that cops run random plates just for something to do. That's why I always turn off the road when a cop pulls in behind me. I don't want him getting any ideas.
CruiserTwelve: Cops run plates at random all the time. Checking to see if the car is stolen, the plates are being misused, warrants for the registered owner, etc.

Fair enough...
How's that whole "Land of the Free" thing working out?

Are the cops where you live not allowed to run plates?

They can, but to pull you over they have a very short list of reasons, which, oddly would include the wrong colour bit this guy was pulled over for, but should not have been.


Why should he not have been pulled over? The plates did not match the description of the car. To me that is a very legitimate reason to pull someone over.
 
2013-01-05 02:37:47 AM  

Mock26: sno man: Mock26: sno man: jaylectricity: Every one knows that cops run random plates just for something to do. That's why I always turn off the road when a cop pulls in behind me. I don't want him getting any ideas.
CruiserTwelve: Cops run plates at random all the time. Checking to see if the car is stolen, the plates are being misused, warrants for the registered owner, etc.

Fair enough...
How's that whole "Land of the Free" thing working out?

Are the cops where you live not allowed to run plates?

They can, but to pull you over they have a very short list of reasons, which, oddly would include the wrong colour bit this guy was pulled over for, but should not have been.

Why should he not have been pulled over? The plates did not match the description of the car. To me that is a very legitimate reason to pull someone over.


that there is apparently no way to update that information in Florida might be a mitigating factor...
 
2013-01-05 02:40:59 AM  

HoratioGates: New York State tried for a money grab. Our cops have the automatic plate scanners that scan every car. The state wanted some money so they tried to say that the current license plates were hard for the scanners to read and that everyone, even the people who just got them, would have to pay to get new plates in the new colors. It was pretty close to going through until the police came out and said the scanners worked fine on the old colors and basically said the governor was full of it. So glad Patterson is gone.


Well, in Patterson's defense, he had a very hard time reading the plates.
 
2013-01-05 03:01:20 AM  

Ima4nic8or: I dont understand why the color was even on the registration. Maybe I have not looked in enough detail but I dont think that appears on CA registration. Why would it? The plate should be tied to the VIN of the car, not to something like color that is relatively commonly changed.


I know in Missouri that color is listed in the registration information. Would seem to make sense that if you have to report it originally for registration, that you would need to report any change to the color.
 
2013-01-05 03:01:55 AM  

Flint Ironstag: From the TFA:
on June 22, 2010 when an Escambia County Deputy Sheriff saw a bright green Chevy. The deputy ran the plate and the record showed the vehicle was registered to a blue Chevy. The deputy initiated a traffic stop, and Kerick Van Teamer, the driver, explained his car had recently been painted. A search turned up drugs leading to Teamer's arrest. Teamer sought to suppress the evidence because he never should have been pulled over in the first place.

A stop I can understand. Questioning the driver about the colour of the car I can understand. But how did this stop lead to a search? Did the cop think he'd find something in the car that would prove it had, or had not, been painted? On what grounds did he ask to search the car, apart from the old "I smell drugs" line?

TFA doesn't explain this, or say whether the guy consented to the search.


This is news to you?

Once you're legally stopped, there's scant protection against a search.
They can say they "smelled marijuana", which cannot be disproved in court, as a smell cannot be entered into evidence.
They can say you "appeared nervous".
They can search your person "for weapon, for the officer's safety", however, anything they find is admissible, even if not a weapon.

Just the way it is. The strongest legal protection is in proving they had no legal reason to stop you in the first place. If you can prove the stop was unreasonable, that's a violation of Constitutional rights. You won't get paid a million bucks for your rights being violated or anything, but the Exclusionary Rule pretty much guarantees all the evidence and thus all the charges will get thrown out.

Ironically, if you're searched but not charged with anything, there's very little legal remedy.
 
2013-01-05 03:04:04 AM  

Loaded Six String: pedrop357: Loaded Six String: /Something is wrong here. Captain Picard doesn't like what we've become.
//You're my bestest friend if you know the episode :D

Measure of a Man or Drumhead are my initial guesses.

You will have to settle for new friend, since you couldn't commit to one answer :D


I promise I didn't google, but I think it was drumhead. because Picard was on the stand with admiral satee (?) and that sounds like something he would have said then. I thought The measure of a man was a lot about slavery and self determination and drumhead about random/baseless persecution and I think that fits with this more.

I've got amazon prime and now I have to watch them again. While I'm there, I'll end up watching Inner Light and probably Darmok again.
 
2013-01-05 03:06:46 AM  

Smeggy Smurf: OK, what color is this truck? Go ahead Mr. Pig, what color is it?


Doesn't matter... plate isn't visible, good for a stop.
 
2013-01-05 03:07:27 AM  

President Merkin Muffley: CruiserTwelve: sno man: Back up even further, why was the cop running the plate at all?  Speeding? Blowing a stop sign? Driving a shiny car while black?

Cops run plates at random all the time. Checking to see if the car is stolen, the plates are being misused, warrants for the registered owner, etc.

Yes they do, and that's illegal.


And why is it illegal exactly?
 
2013-01-05 03:11:22 AM  

Ima4nic8or: I dont understand why the color was even on the registration. Maybe I have not looked in enough detail but I dont think that appears on CA registration. Why would it? The plate should be tied to the VIN of the car...


Good sir, I run CA plates all day at work and I can confirm that CA does not have the color specified in the DMV system unless it's on the DOJ stop flag for a stolen vehicle. CA doesn't even list the model, just a code for the body type. All states list the VIN and the plate though, that way we can always make sure the plate and VIN match.

jaybeezey:

How the fark would a cop know that the car has been stolen until it has been reported? Is he/she supposed to psychic as well?


It may not be this exact situation, but when a cop pulls someone over that isn't the registered owner they can try to contact the owner and see if they know who has it.
I'm a dispatcher, and I talked to someone just this morning whose daughter's car was stolen while the daughter was out of state for winter break. Whomever had it was speeding like crazy and got pulled over. They couldn't explain why they had possession of the car so we called the registered owner (at 3am) and they let us know that it was stolen.
 
2013-01-05 03:22:16 AM  

pedrop357: Loaded Six String: pedrop357: Loaded Six String: /Something is wrong here. Captain Picard doesn't like what we've become.
//You're my bestest friend if you know the episode :D

Measure of a Man or Drumhead are my initial guesses.

You will have to settle for new friend, since you couldn't commit to one answer :D

I promise I didn't google, but I think it was drumhead. because Picard was on the stand with admiral satee (?) and that sounds like something he would have said then. I thought The measure of a man was a lot about slavery and self determination and drumhead about random/baseless persecution and I think that fits with this more.

I've got amazon prime and now I have to watch them again. While I'm there, I'll end up watching Inner Light and probably Darmok again.


Indeed, it was Drumhead.

Worf: "But if he has nothing to hide than he has nothing to fear."
Picard: "Oh no Mr. Worf. We cannot allow ourselves to think that. The Seventh Gauruntee is one of the founding principles of the Federation. Something is wrong here Mr. Worf. I do not like what we've become."

Good parallel with McCarthy's Red Scare.

/Part of why I love Star Trek are the stories which mirror current and historical events and give the viewer cause to explore a moral dilemma.
//Done exposing myself now.
 
2013-01-05 03:34:46 AM  

Ima4nic8or: I dont understand why the color was even on the registration. Maybe I have not looked in enough detail but I dont think that appears on CA registration. Why would it? The plate should be tied to the VIN of the car, not to something like color that is relatively commonly changed.


in my state color is most certainly on the registration as is logical for identification. it is the owners responsibility to update their documents at DMV. it doesn't matter that your taxes pay for most roads, your buying American cars keeps Americans employed and our (rich people owned) government makes sure you use and buy gasoline for the most part. they still tell you "driving is a privilege not a right" and they make up all the rules, laws and statutes.

take a look at your driver license. got it at 17, weighed 179? now you're a fast food 324 but the driver license still reads 179? that is falsified documentation and you can get screwed for that. so something as lare as car color - a/k/a it may be stolen and repainted - could wind up in having a bad day. surprised Farkers don't know this but hey, it's one of the few things i happen to know.
 
2013-01-05 04:33:27 AM  
It's no mystery people.
I bought a used motorcycle in Jacksonville. When I registered it, the clerk asked me if it was still the same color.
 
2013-01-05 05:55:58 AM  
What about if the car is covered in multiple layers of shelf pape[checks thread]

Well played, calbert. You win this time.
 
2013-01-05 07:01:25 AM  
How about no.
 
2013-01-05 07:04:04 AM  
wanted for questioning
stblogs.hotrod.com
 
2013-01-05 08:47:42 AM  

HoratioGates: New York State tried for a money grab. Our cops have the automatic plate scanners that scan every car. The state wanted some money so they tried to say that the current license plates were hard for the scanners to read and that everyone, even the people who just got them, would have to pay to get new plates in the new colors. It was pretty close to going through until the police came out and said the scanners worked fine on the old colors and basically said the governor was full of it. So glad Patterson is gone.


I would suspect Patterson had a very difficult time reading the scanners
 
2013-01-05 09:02:32 AM  

Loaded Six String: Unless you can articulate how the plate being on the same model vehicle yet a different color constitutes probably cause, no. Have a nice day officer.

/As a side note, allowing police to pull over and cite vehicles for having modified exhausts based on an ambiguous noise level (can be heard from a block away) is complete bull for numerous reasons. I would not be surprised if it is in fact a run around anti-profiling measures.


I proudly got a ticket for excessive loud exhaust on my 84 Buick regal. V6
Was driving to muffler shop at the time.
The judge laughed his arse off and dismissed the ticket.
 
2013-01-05 09:24:28 AM  

Kraftwerk Orange: CruiserTwelve: sno man: Back up even further, why was the cop running the plate at all?  Speeding? Blowing a stop sign? Driving a shiny car while black?

Cops run plates at random all the time. Checking to see if the car is stolen, the plates are being misused, warrants for the registered owner, etc.

Our local cops have plate scanners to do that automatically. They don't even have to lift a finger - the system scans every plate of every car, and checks for tickets or other pertinent info. They're getting ready to connect that system to our street cameras as well.


Most people don't even know about these and the police don't like to talk about it. The police can scan every car in a parking lot in seconds. Soon they will be scanning every car on the road. It is real life Orwellian 1984 stuff. Nobody cares.
 
2013-01-05 09:38:55 AM  

sno man: Flint Ironstag: From the TFA:
on June 22, 2010 when an Escambia County Deputy Sheriff saw a bright green Chevy. The deputy ran the plate and the record showed the vehicle was registered to a blue Chevy. The deputy initiated a traffic stop, and Kerick Van Teamer, the driver, explained his car had recently been painted. A search turned up drugs leading to Teamer's arrest. Teamer sought to suppress the evidence because he never should have been pulled over in the first place.

A stop I can understand. Questioning the driver about the colour of the car I can understand. But how did this stop lead to a search? Did the cop think he'd find something in the car that would prove it had, or had not, been painted? On what grounds did he ask to search the car, apart from the old "I smell drugs" line?

TFA doesn't explain this, or say whether the guy consented to the search.

Back up even further, why was the cop running the plate at all?  Speeding? Blowing a stop sign? Driving a shiny car while black?


Its what cops do... All day, every day. If they are not busy pulling you over for a real violation, then they are randomly running the license plates of the vehicles around them, hoping to find something.
 
2013-01-05 10:12:52 AM  
Most motor vehicle laws exist solely as a pretext for "probable cause" to stop and search a vehicle, so this is not surprising.
 
2013-01-05 10:22:37 AM  

Maul555: Its what cops do... All day, every day. If they are not busy pulling you over for a real violation, then they are randomly running the license plates of the vehicles around them, hoping to find something.


How is this significantly different from stopping random people on the street and demanding 'Papers Please', just to be sure there isn't any outstanding warrants, tickets, missed child support payments, etc? Just because it's quicker and can be done surreptitiously doesn't make it any less a 'fishing expedition'.
 
2013-01-05 11:20:28 AM  

wambu: Most motor vehicle laws exist solely as a pretext for "probable cause" to stop and search a vehicle, so this is not surprising.


It's all unconstitutional bullshiat. The founding fathers would not have put up with this crap in their horse and buggies.
 
2013-01-05 11:54:47 AM  

DigitalCoffee: Maul555: Its what cops do... All day, every day. If they are not busy pulling you over for a real violation, then they are randomly running the license plates of the vehicles around them, hoping to find something.

How is this significantly different from stopping random people on the street and demanding 'Papers Please', just to be sure there isn't any outstanding warrants, tickets, missed child support payments, etc? Just because it's quicker and can be done surreptitiously doesn't make it any less a 'fishing expedition'.


Three words: License Plate Scanners

/now you can be afraid
 
2013-01-05 01:08:01 PM  

Gyrfalcon: sno man: jaylectricity: Every one knows that cops run random plates just for something to do. That's why I always turn off the road when a cop pulls in behind me. I don't want him getting any ideas.
CruiserTwelve: Cops run plates at random all the time. Checking to see if the car is stolen, the plates are being misused, warrants for the registered owner, etc.

Fair enough...
How's that whole "Land of the Free" thing working out?

??

Police have always been allowed to run your plates. Just like they can follow you for 50 miles down the road for no reason at all to see if you do something. "Land of the free" doesn't mean "Land where cops don't exist till YOU want them."

You're not one of those ones who always post "When seconds count, the police are minutes away!" crap, are you? Cuz this is what's known as "proactive policing"--checking to see if a car is stolen BEFORE someone reports it stolen, you know? Would you prefer the cop wait till the car gets reported, or would you be the one whining that "The cop saw that car driving down the road and didn't do anything! What a lazy pig!"


Don't drive a car that someone wants to steal. There, problem solved.

I could care farking less if someone stole one of my cars.
 
2013-01-05 01:14:36 PM  

sno man: Mock26: sno man: Mock26: sno man: jaylectricity: Every one knows that cops run random plates just for something to do. That's why I always turn off the road when a cop pulls in behind me. I don't want him getting any ideas.
CruiserTwelve: Cops run plates at random all the time. Checking to see if the car is stolen, the plates are being misused, warrants for the registered owner, etc.

Fair enough...
How's that whole "Land of the Free" thing working out?

Are the cops where you live not allowed to run plates?

They can, but to pull you over they have a very short list of reasons, which, oddly would include the wrong colour bit this guy was pulled over for, but should not have been.

Why should he not have been pulled over? The plates did not match the description of the car. To me that is a very legitimate reason to pull someone over.

that there is apparently no way to update that information in Florida might be a mitigating factor...


Can you provide citation for this? I am not doubting you, I just did not think that would be the case. Seems to me that if they can enter the initial color into the database that they can update it.
 
2013-01-05 01:22:55 PM  

Mock26: Can you provide citation for this? I am not doubting you, I just did not think that would be the case. Seems to me that if they can enter the initial color into the database that they can update it.


FTA:
"Changing the color of a vehicle is not illegal, and the state does not require an owner to report the change in color to the DHSMV [Department of Highway Safety, Motor Vehicles Division]," Judge James R. Wolf wrote for the three-judge panel. "The question then is what degree of suspicion attaches to this particular noncriminal act?"

Aside from three cases, the First District judges found most court decisions it reviewed from around the country did not believe a color mismatch on its own justified a stop. The First District suggested this is the same situation as a motorist driving with a temporary license plate tag. Though it is possible such tags could be expired, that would amount to no more than a hunch. The matter is complicated further because the state has no form a driver can use to report a change in vehicle color.

 
Yea, I totally agree that is weird, and if there is no way to update the info, why ask for it in the first place?
 
2013-01-05 01:23:28 PM  

iheartscotch: Meh; I'm not too concerned. It is the responsibility the owner of the car to update the state as to what color it has changed to.

Running random plates, as long as it does not create a permanent mark against the vehicle in question, I'm fine with.

The owner did not have to consent to a search.

/ I know, I know; often the result of a refusal of consent, is a warrant to search the vehicle.


Better to document than not.
 
2013-01-05 01:44:56 PM  
By the way, given all the outrage, concerns of privacy, talk of abuse, etc. of vehicle registration information, is it any wonder why gun owners don't want their guns registered?
 
2013-01-05 02:34:24 PM  

pedrop357: is it any wonder why gun owners don't want their guns registered


You're under arrest for changing the color of the grips on your .45 without updating your registration. (P.S. there's no way you can update your registration)
 
2013-01-05 04:04:34 PM  

sno man: Mock26: Can you provide citation for this? I am not doubting you, I just did not think that would be the case. Seems to me that if they can enter the initial color into the database that they can update it.

FTA:
"Changing the color of a vehicle is not illegal, and the state does not require an owner to report the change in color to the DHSMV [Department of Highway Safety, Motor Vehicles Division]," Judge James R. Wolf wrote for the three-judge panel. "The question then is what degree of suspicion attaches to this particular noncriminal act?"

Aside from three cases, the First District judges found most court decisions it reviewed from around the country did not believe a color mismatch on its own justified a stop. The First District suggested this is the same situation as a motorist driving with a temporary license plate tag. Though it is possible such tags could be expired, that would amount to no more than a hunch. The matter is complicated further because the state has no form a driver can use to report a change in vehicle color.

Yea, I totally agree that is weird, and if there is no way to update the info, why ask for it in the first place?


Thanks for the info. It is much appreciated. I wonder, though, if someone can just go down to the DMV and have them update their database without a form?
 
2013-01-05 04:05:23 PM  

ArcadianRefugee: Loaded Six String: Unless you can articulate how the plate being on the same model vehicle yet a different color constitutes probably cause, no.

Odd, I would think "yes". Different color = different vehicle. Kinda the whole point of noting the vehicle's color in the first place.

Seriously, I always thought one would have to report a color change to the DMV. No?


Do we have to report "Clear coat peeling"? Man, are they going to be busy.
 
2013-01-05 08:07:59 PM  
Little by little liberty dies.
 
2013-01-05 10:44:10 PM  

DigitalCoffee: How is this significantly different from stopping random people on the street and demanding 'Papers Please', just to be sure there isn't any outstanding warrants, tickets, missed child support payments, etc? Just because it's quicker and can be done surreptitiously doesn't make it any less a 'fishing expedition'.


The difference is that running your license plate is unobtrusive. It doesn't require that the officer detain you or question you.
 
2013-01-06 12:57:25 AM  

CruiserTwelve: The difference is that running your license plate is unobtrusive. It doesn't require that the officer detain you or question you.


That's not what the Florida Highway Patrolwoman thinks. She's suing over a variety of harassing actions, including having her info run numerous times. If running her info is invasive, what is running plates without a reason?

I wonder how receptive police departments would be to a law requiring them to reveal when/why they ran a person's plates say 6 months after the fact.
 
2013-01-06 12:59:57 AM  

Ima4nic8or: I dont understand why the color was even on the registration. Maybe I have not looked in enough detail but I dont think that appears on CA registration. Why would it? The plate should be tied to the VIN of the car, not to something like color that is relatively commonly changed.


Someone else has probably already mentioned this, but look harder. Yes your cars color is on your CA registration.
 
2013-01-06 03:36:24 AM  

pedrop357: That's not what the Florida Highway Patrolwoman thinks. She's suing over a variety of harassing actions, including having her info run numerous times. If running her info is invasive, what is running plates without a reason?


That's a totally different situation. They were pulling her driver's license photo repeatedly just to see what she looked like. That's not nearly the same as randomly checking license plates for evidence of a crime. One is intrusive, the other is not.
 
2013-01-06 08:26:55 AM  

Agent Smiths Laugh: Little by little liberty dies.


You're hysterical.

No, really.

You really are gonna say we live in tyranny because the cops got a hinky feelin at a car that got LOLwhoops Earl Scheibed and they actually did their jobs and checked up on it??
 
2013-01-06 10:25:17 AM  

Ima4nic8or: I dont understand why the color was even on the registration. Maybe I have not looked in enough detail but I dont think that appears on CA registration. Why would it? The plate should be tied to the VIN of the car, not to something like color that is relatively commonly changed.


The VIN actually includes the original car color.
 
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