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(Digital Spy)   Proving they hate their customers, Sony is working on technology that would make it impossible to play used or borrowed games on the PS4   (digitalspy.com) divider line 182
    More: Fail, Sony, ps3 games, debris disk  
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3054 clicks; posted to Geek » on 04 Jan 2013 at 8:49 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-04 11:52:23 AM

tlchwi02: i find it odd that steam is being held up as the antithesis of this model. Doesn't steam already do this? i can't re-sell any game i buy on steam or loan it out without giving another person direct access to my account. There's no such thing as a used game market on steam. I like steam because of the convenience and access to older titles, but i don't get why valve is lauded for something and sony is crucified for even considering doing the same thing?


Steam has sales and a lower MSRP on many titles, which seems to cause folks to forgive it's other transgressions. If sony or MS did the same, no one would really complain.
 
2013-01-04 11:52:57 AM

tlchwi02: i find it odd that steam is being held up as the antithesis of this model. Doesn't steam already do this? i can't re-sell any game i buy on steam or loan it out without giving another person direct access to my account. There's no such thing as a used game market on steam. I like steam because of the convenience and access to older titles, but i don't get why valve is lauded for something and sony is crucified for even considering doing the same thing?


I thought Steam let you trade and gift games to your friends? I've never done it but I thought you could.
 
2013-01-04 11:53:22 AM

Cheron: This seems fairly straight forward, you are not buying a game you are purchasing a license to use the game on one specific device. It is equally straight forward that a license is worth much less to the customer base so should be priced at about 20% to 25% the cost of buying a copy of the game.


So what happens if your console is broken or stolen?
 
2013-01-04 11:55:06 AM

H31N0US: Glad I'm too old to spend time playing games.


If you enjoy it, why not play? If your life is too filled with other responsibilities, that's not being "too old," it's just taking on too much work. What good is life without leisure time?
 
2013-01-04 11:55:35 AM

RTOGUY: tlchwi02: i find it odd that steam is being held up as the antithesis of this model. Doesn't steam already do this? i can't re-sell any game i buy on steam or loan it out without giving another person direct access to my account. There's no such thing as a used game market on steam. I like steam because of the convenience and access to older titles, but i don't get why valve is lauded for something and sony is crucified for even considering doing the same thing?

I thought Steam let you trade and gift games to your friends? I've never done it but I thought you could.


You can't gift a game you already activated. You can basically only do it for stuff newly purchased, or bough 'as a gift'. Trading items in some games is allowed though.
 
2013-01-04 11:55:44 AM

tlchwi02: ...but i don't get why valve is lauded for something and sony is crucified for even considering doing the same thing?


I don't know about the Sony Market, but on XBox live a game that you can buy physically for 60 dollars costs... 60 dollars on their store. Even OLD Games are 60 dollars. On Steam you can get games for a lower price (which is acceptable since there's no disk involved) and get frequent discounts which is always awesome.

Also, have you TRIED transfering games you purchased on one console to another one? A phreaking PAIN. Steam, on the other hand, I just log my user in there, and if the game was already downloaded I can play it right away... with all my saves and configurations saved on the cloud. If its not there, I can just download it there and that's it.

Steam has a convenience I have no idea why others have not adopted. They've made business out of the obvious, and even though they're what we always wanted in the past, its exactly what we have in the present and hopefully get more in the future.
 
2013-01-04 11:56:18 AM
So you sell the console with a 500GB or 1TB hard drive, and when you purchase a game (between 4-8 gigs) that makes sense.  I just don't like the always online concept like Blizzard and Steam, b/c when their systems go down, you can't play.

And imagine another PS Network nightmare...how long was that outtage?
 
2013-01-04 11:56:53 AM

Old enough to know better: Yeah thanks Sony, but I think I'll stick with downloading $10 indie games off Steam if its all the same.


You mean games that you can't trade in, purchase used, or loan to friends?
 
2013-01-04 12:01:20 PM

Antimatter: There is no used PC game market though, for any game made after the rise of the CD key in the late 90's. Modern games, with stuff like steam activation, are basically non existent outside of first sales.


Yeah, and except on release day and for a few months, I *rarely* buy a game at MSRP. Hell I just bought a couple copies of Human Revolution for 5 bucks a pop (it's 15-20 regularly) and handed them out to Steam buddies. Why? Because I like the game, it was on sale and my friends haven't been able to play it.

I've done this a couple dozen times now. Who the hell does that for friends on the console market?
 
2013-01-04 12:01:48 PM

corronchilejano: tlchwi02: ...but i don't get why valve is lauded for something and sony is crucified for even considering doing the same thing?

I don't know about the Sony Market, but on XBox live a game that you can buy physically for 60 dollars costs... 60 dollars on their store. Even OLD Games are 60 dollars. On Steam you can get games for a lower price (which is acceptable since there's no disk involved) and get frequent discounts which is always awesome.

Also, have you TRIED transfering games you purchased on one console to another one? A phreaking PAIN. Steam, on the other hand, I just log my user in there, and if the game was already downloaded I can play it right away... with all my saves and configurations saved on the cloud. If its not there, I can just download it there and that's it.

Steam has a convenience I have no idea why others have not adopted. They've made business out of the obvious, and even though they're what we always wanted in the past, its exactly what we have in the present and hopefully get more in the future.


Actually, redownloading on PSN is a snap. It still allows two active systems for any game, and all you have to do is sign in and then look at your download history. If you go over yoru limit, it's not too hard to deactivate one of your now unused consoles. It's only of the few things PSN actually did really well.

Cloud saves are psplus only though, but very handy. PsPlus was an absolute joke at launch, but now is actually kind of cool, mainly for the instaint game collection.
 
2013-01-04 12:06:04 PM

ajgeek: Antimatter: There is no used PC game market though, for any game made after the rise of the CD key in the late 90's. Modern games, with stuff like steam activation, are basically non existent outside of first sales.

Yeah, and except on release day and for a few months, I *rarely* buy a game at MSRP. Hell I just bought a couple copies of Human Revolution for 5 bucks a pop (it's 15-20 regularly) and handed them out to Steam buddies. Why? Because I like the game, it was on sale and my friends haven't been able to play it.

I've done this a couple dozen times now. Who the hell does that for friends on the console market?


And that's the key to making restrictive DRM work: make it cheap, and easy. I managed to get my sister into PC gaming again by gifting her games on steam, ditto for several of my friends.
 
2013-01-04 12:07:37 PM

Antimatter: Cloud saves are psplus only though, but very handy. PsPlus was an absolute joke at launch, but now is actually kind of cool, mainly for the instaint game collection.


This is sort of meh for me. Paying to access "free" games? I dunno, not my cup of tea but I can see how that can work and see it as a completely valid.

XBLA now, just farking assholes. I only buy the exclusives and the rest goes to Steam. If it ain't on Steam, I probably don't even try. And if this thing goes through? Goodbye Xbox and Playstation for next gen. I simply cannot support even more retarded policies for gaming.
 
2013-01-04 12:10:26 PM
If they're trying to sell you a $500 game playing device and also sell you $60 games, this won't work. People pay $60 right now for games that they can keep, trade with friends, re-sell, take to a friend's house and play, etc. These things have value. Making it un-sellable, un-tradable, un-transportable makes it worth much much much less. So they had better be considering selling games for $15-$20 NEW or this won't work at all.
 
2013-01-04 12:19:23 PM

corronchilejano: Antimatter: Cloud saves are psplus only though, but very handy. PsPlus was an absolute joke at launch, but now is actually kind of cool, mainly for the instaint game collection.

This is sort of meh for me. Paying to access "free" games? I dunno, not my cup of tea but I can see how that can work and see it as a completely valid.

XBLA now, just farking assholes. I only buy the exclusives and the rest goes to Steam. If it ain't on Steam, I probably don't even try. And if this thing goes through? Goodbye Xbox and Playstation for next gen. I simply cannot support even more retarded policies for gaming.


It's the cost, per year, of a single game, and gives me what, 10-15 games to play at any one time I think? Plus discounts and so on? Plus the cloud saves, auto-patching for games and system updates, and even auto scheduling of downloads from the store. It's pretty neat, and a hell of a bargain compared to XBL.

Granted I only have it because a friend gifted it to me for the holiday, but it's actually pretty neat.

steam is still my #1 source of games though. I've not played a console game since about June, save for a few demos. Handhelds have been getting some play though.
 
2013-01-04 12:21:34 PM
I really hope that this is just a test the waters sort of thing. I woudn't be upgrading my systems if that's what happened. I find that most of the games I pick up aren't worth $60 and that's why I get them used or wait until they're really cheap new. I think there needs to be a bit of an understanding that all games can't be priced the same.
 
2013-01-04 12:21:56 PM

Antimatter: Steam has sales and a lower MSRP on many titles, which seems to cause folks to forgive it's other transgressions. If sony or MS did the same, no one would really complain.


so the argument basically is "we just like valve better in general so we forgive them when they do X and we don't like sony or MS so we yell at them for even thinking of doing the same thing"?
 
2013-01-04 12:25:54 PM

tlchwi02: Antimatter: Steam has sales and a lower MSRP on many titles, which seems to cause folks to forgive it's other transgressions. If sony or MS did the same, no one would really complain.

so the argument basically is "we just like valve better in general so we forgive them when they do X and we don't like sony or MS so we yell at them for even thinking of doing the same thing"?


It's more like 'Valve does the same thing, but they are cheap so it's cool.'
 
2013-01-04 12:31:38 PM
I guess I won't buy a ps4 then. Pay $60 for a game a I might not like/that can play only in one location?No thanks.
 
2013-01-04 12:32:01 PM

Antimatter: It's more like 'Valve does the same thing, but they are cheap so it's cool.'


see, that doesn't make sense to me. either its ok to not allow used games/sharing/trading or it isn't to my mind. its like the old joke about the guy who asks a random woman if she'd sleep with him for a million bucks. now we're just haggling on the price.
 
2013-01-04 12:32:23 PM
From what my game store owning friend says, the group most affected by this will be poorer families. He still sells a boatload of PS, PS2, Xbox, Nintendo 64 and Game Cube games to low-income families, which for the most part is minorities where his store is located. These are also households that may not have persistent internet access, so there's no point in moving on to the next system because of the required downloads.
 
2013-01-04 12:34:02 PM
So, with the Ouya coming out this month and giving people an open platform with the requirement that all games developed for it have a "free to play" element, Sony and Microsoft decide to go the exact opposite direction and make their new consoles even more locked down and limited?

WTG, Sony & MS.

I'm not gung-ho on the Ouya yet. Time will tell if the games are decent or crap, or if it's all just a scam. However, I can see that there will be a lot of pissed off console gamers looking for an alternative that lets them either play used games, or gives them a more open market so prices won't be so ridiculous. I almost NEVER pay $60 for a game. I will wait and get it used several months later for $20, at the most. $60 for a game is more than 1/4 the price of the basic consoles these days. The Ouya, PC, and Wii U will have an advantage.

PC gaming might re-surge after the PS4/X720's launch, but it's still too expensive and too inconvenient compared to consoles. When PC games are guaranteed to not require tweaking before the game works, it will be on less-shaky ground. Right now, though, if you download a game from Steam you can't be guaranteed that you won't have to spend half the day tweaking your rig or Windows settings to make it work properly. And of course, Steam games are disabled if you don't log into Steam every so-many days. If you're trying to play your Steam collection without Internet access, you're screwed.

I think it's time for a new console. Not just a little one like the Ouya, which I predict will have some fun games but will be loaded with crapware and shovelware, but a new major player... Or maybe an old player who makes a comeback.

SEGA, Mattel, Commodore, or Magnavox... Your time may be at hand. Picture this: NEW GENESIS, INTELLIVISION HD, C=1080, or the ODYSSEY 4HD.

Make it happen.
 
2013-01-04 12:34:38 PM
Uh...given that the entire industry is moving towards pure digital distribution anyway, the eventual inability to share/borrow has been a known inevitability for ages. Is this any worse than if someone, say, came out with a system that didn't have an optical drive at all? It's all going away one way or the other, fellas, and it's industry-wide. Let's see if they actually leverage this patent, though.
 
2013-01-04 12:35:56 PM

the opposite of charity is justice: Be the industry leader on this one, Sony. Guarantee that places like Gamestop and Best Buy won't carry the PS4 and that consumers hate you even more than they already do.


I'll take "retailers that won't exist in 3 years for 400", Alex.
 
2013-01-04 12:41:29 PM

ZeroCorpse: So, with the Ouya coming out this month and giving people an open platform with the requirement that all games developed for it have a "free to play" element, Sony and Microsoft decide to go the exact opposite direction and make their new consoles even more locked down and limited?


Seriously? No one gives a fark about Ouya. Seriously. It is not relevant to the industry and it is going to flop hard. I promise you this. Sony/MS/Nintendo aren't concerned with it because it addresses a tiny segment of people who for some reason would pay money to play cell phone quality games on a TV.
 
2013-01-04 12:41:57 PM

Antimatter: tlchwi02: Antimatter: Steam has sales and a lower MSRP on many titles, which seems to cause folks to forgive it's other transgressions. If sony or MS did the same, no one would really complain.

so the argument basically is "we just like valve better in general so we forgive them when they do X and we don't like sony or MS so we yell at them for even thinking of doing the same thing"?

It's more like 'Valve does the same thing, but they are cheap so it's cool.'


Which isn't true as new games on Steam are similarly priced to the console counterpart (and sometimes the console version even reduces price quicker). Don't get me wrong I'm just as big a steam fanboy who only buys games from there (311 games so far) but even I'll admit that is a load of crap.

This really reminds me of the whole backwards compatibility ordeal which I admit was adamant about. People biatched about BC being removed/dropped from the PS3 and 360 and yet something like 10% of users ever played a game through backwards compatibility and when the original xbox live servers were taken down there was less than a 100 people logging into any original xbox game nightly.
 
2013-01-04 12:42:01 PM
Because I have nowhere else to complain, I bought Sleeping Dogs on steam last week (I have a PS3 but I've been slowly shifting away from it for non-exclusives) after hearing my PC gamer buddy talk my ear off about the benefits of PC vs console, and I have a beefy PC workstation anyway that can handle new games at basically max.

I hate mouse+kb but my USB controller isn't mapped properly (the game is tailored to a 360 controller on PC and my button #s don't align) and I can't figure out any way to remap buttons. I don't want to jump with L1 and aim with Triangle, so I'm just waiting for a 360 controller to arrive and just lose my old one. Even Joy2Key which I normally use won't work, as I remap the buttons to keys but there's no way to disable joystick input and just use keys! So it still reads the keymap AND the js button with each press, which is REALLY screwy. Should've gone with PS3 :(

Who doesn't let you remap buttons nowadays? Only a mild annoyance but I'm not used to these issues as an infrequent PC gamer.
 
2013-01-04 12:55:43 PM

Saners: This really reminds me of the whole backwards compatibility ordeal which I admit was adamant about. People biatched about BC being removed/dropped from the PS3 and 360 and yet something like 10% of users ever played a game through backwards compatibility ...


I do think its removal was a mistake, I can see needing to remove the hardware for cost reasons, but they should have left the emulation on the PS3.
It has its uses, but not that common ones. as most people are only playing the newest games on the market, and do not go back to old systems with 'horrible' graphics. If a new game comes out in a series, it is nice to be able to play the preceding games again, or try them if you never plauyed them before. It is a bit of a customer loyalty thing, being able to play the games for the last system enables me to only have 1 system hooked up at a time, which is better for organization and appearances as I do not want to have to have a PS1, PS2 and PS3 hooked up to my TV if I can have only 1 attached.
 
2013-01-04 01:00:51 PM
cdn-static.zdnet.com

Soon.
 
2013-01-04 01:06:10 PM

sjmcc13: Saners: This really reminds me of the whole backwards compatibility ordeal which I admit was adamant about. People biatched about BC being removed/dropped from the PS3 and 360 and yet something like 10% of users ever played a game through backwards compatibility ...

I do think its removal was a mistake, I can see needing to remove the hardware for cost reasons, but they should have left the emulation on the PS3.
It has its uses, but not that common ones. as most people are only playing the newest games on the market, and do not go back to old systems with 'horrible' graphics. If a new game comes out in a series, it is nice to be able to play the preceding games again, or try them if you never plauyed them before. It is a bit of a customer loyalty thing, being able to play the games for the last system enables me to only have 1 system hooked up at a time, which is better for organization and appearances as I do not want to have to have a PS1, PS2 and PS3 hooked up to my TV if I can have only 1 attached.


There was no emulation though, it was all hardware BC. Ps2 games can be tricky to emulate because so many used various tips and tricks to milk performance out of the ps2, that were not at all in line with normal development guidelines. Cell wasn't the greatest environment to write a ps2 emulator in, ether.

the way they got around this was similar to how the 360's BC works: they had to basically write a custom emulator for each game in the psn's ps2 classics releases.
 
2013-01-04 01:10:52 PM

ha-ha-guy: capnmonkey: I think a better strategy is to pair DLC/in game items/bonuses with new copies of the game, and once you redeem the code and link it to your account its done.

That would tempt some people to pay $50 for the new version which comes with horse armor DLC or whatever, rather than paying shiatty gamestop $35 for a used copy.

That seems the most logical way to do it. I have the XL edition of GT5 which came with a code to get all the DLC available at the time of XL's release and a 20 dollar credit for additional DLC later. So I bought the XL edition new instead of a used copy of GT.

I think this is shortsighted in that a lot of sales still occur from a friend bringing over a disk. The only reason I have Just Cause is a friend lent me the disc for a weekend when he'd be out of town. Had that not happened, I'd never have bought my own copy.


Exactly.
 
2013-01-04 01:13:00 PM

Doc Daneeka: Antimatter: ***snip***

3) None of this is the consumer's problem anyway. Consumers shouldn't have to abdicate their rights just because video game developers and publishers can't figure out a working business model.


Innovation through legislation.
 
2013-01-04 01:16:10 PM

ZeroCorpse: So, with the Ouya coming out this month and giving people an open platform with the requirement that all games developed for it have a "free to play" element, Sony and Microsoft decide to go the exact opposite direction and make their new consoles even more locked down and limited?

WTG, Sony & MS.

I'm not gung-ho on the Ouya yet. Time will tell if the games are decent or crap, or if it's all just a scam. However, I can see that there will be a lot of pissed off console gamers looking for an alternative that lets them either play used games, or gives them a more open market so prices won't be so ridiculous. I almost NEVER pay $60 for a game. I will wait and get it used several months later for $20, at the most. $60 for a game is more than 1/4 the price of the basic consoles these days. The Ouya, PC, and Wii U will have an advantage.

PC gaming might re-surge after the PS4/X720's launch, but it's still too expensive and too inconvenient compared to consoles. When PC games are guaranteed to not require tweaking before the game works, it will be on less-shaky ground. Right now, though, if you download a game from Steam you can't be guaranteed that you won't have to spend half the day tweaking your rig or Windows settings to make it work properly. And of course, Steam games are disabled if you don't log into Steam every so-many days. If you're trying to play your Steam collection without Internet access, you're screwed.

I think it's time for a new console. Not just a little one like the Ouya, which I predict will have some fun games but will be loaded with crapware and shovelware, but a new major player... Or maybe an old player who makes a comeback.

SEGA, Mattel, Commodore, or Magnavox... Your time may be at hand. Picture this: NEW GENESIS, INTELLIVISION HD, C=1080, or the ODYSSEY 4HD.

Make it happen.


Ouya is a cellphone you play on the big screen, that was outdated hardware before it ever released. I'm not seeing a major hit there, outside the open source community.

the PC has all the problems this rumor has, but more. Expensive hardware, restricted DRM, no used/barrowing/etc, and many games start off at $60 these days at release.

Wii U has the same problem, with games retailing for what, $60, and many first party titles taking years to drop in price.
 
2013-01-04 01:17:36 PM

PanicMan: This is what they do. Create a great piece of hardware and then intentionally cripple it.

Sony always does this. Always.


Sony = Apple - fanboy wanking - PR machine.
 
2013-01-04 01:25:01 PM

roc6783: Doc Daneeka: Antimatter: ***snip***

3) None of this is the consumer's problem anyway. Consumers shouldn't have to abdicate their rights just because video game developers and publishers can't figure out a working business model.

Innovation through legislation.


On who's side though?
 
2013-01-04 01:26:50 PM

FinFangFark: So you sell the console with a 500GB or 1TB hard drive, and when you purchase a game (between 4-8 gigs) that makes sense.  I just don't like the always online concept like Blizzard and Steam, b/c when their systems go down, you can't play.

And imagine another PS Network nightmare...how long was that outtage?


I only have one Steam game, but I believe that unless the publisher requires always on DRM, there is an offline mode where you can play and save your game locally. Other users, please feel free to correct me.

tlchwi02: Antimatter: ***snip***

see, that doesn't make sense to me. either its ok to not allow used games/sharing/trading or it isn't to my mind. its like the old joke about the guy who asks a random woman if she'd sleep with him for a million bucks. now we're just haggling on the price.


No, it's as some else said upthread, "If you want me to not be able to trade or resell the game, while not giving me physical media, then I want a price reduction as the value of your game is diminished." Valve said, ok, we'll give you lower cost games and free optional cloud storage. Sony is trying to get the bonus of no resales, without giving up anything to the consumer.

And yes, your analogy is correct. If they want my money and I want their games, we are going to haggle about the "total value" of the game to me. "Total value" includes resales and trading, in addition to the price tag.
 
2013-01-04 01:29:00 PM

Antimatter: roc6783: Doc Daneeka: Antimatter: ***snip***

3) None of this is the consumer's problem anyway. Consumers shouldn't have to abdicate their rights just because video game developers and publishers can't figure out a working business model.

Innovation through legislation.

On who's side though?


Rather than add to the value proposition to increase revenue, Sony is trying to kill the secondary market. That isn't innovation, that's legislating out competition.
 
2013-01-04 01:29:56 PM

Rwa2play: PanicMan: This is what they do. Create a great piece of hardware and then intentionally cripple it.

Sony always does this. Always.

Sony = Apple - fanboy wanking - PR machine.


And that's actually quite sad. I have to wonder who in the company keeps thinking this is a great idea, despite massive outcry every time. at some point, someone has got to law down the law in favor of what gets them better sales.

For the vita, for example, memory cards are necessarily a bad thing, had they been priced sanely or came with all systems. instead they are way too expensive, and that turned a lot of folks off to the console.

On the ps3, they let Ken go way overboard on some specs, and it cost them their market lead, as well as a few exclusive series. I could have done without cell if it meant a cheaper launch and more games early on.

If they use this anti-used games stuff, they will throw away any chance of retaking the marketplace. the amount of FUD from MS or Nintendo would bury the consoles chances.
 
2013-01-04 01:33:48 PM

Egoy3k: Neverhood9: Considering the used game market rips off the devs/publisher...I'm okay with this. But I know I'm in the minority,

The used car market doesn't rip off the car manufacturers so why is this true for video games?


Not quite the same... Used video games don't lose their value over time. Nothing that exists solely as 1s and 0s can depreciate, the way a car can. For this reason, there will always be a new car market, as some people are willing to pay for the status.
 
2013-01-04 01:35:04 PM
I'm a little amazed that no one else has mentioned this, but don't forget that this is in part also a defensive business move for Sony. Owning the patent for something like this is useful just so that your competition either can't develop it or must pay you for a license to use it.
The patent system needs some serious reform, but in the mean time rules is rules.
 
2013-01-04 01:35:25 PM

roc6783: Antimatter: roc6783: Doc Daneeka: Antimatter: ***snip***

3) None of this is the consumer's problem anyway. Consumers shouldn't have to abdicate their rights just because video game developers and publishers can't figure out a working business model.

Innovation through legislation.

On who's side though?

Rather than add to the value proposition to increase revenue, Sony is trying to kill the secondary market. That isn't innovation, that's legislating out competition.


No it's not, as they aren't passing any laws, hence, legislating. Pc games cost $60 as well, and lack all the resellability and trading, yet no one complains anymore. All this would be is adopting a PC style games model.

If anything, the cries of lawsuits, etc, to protect consumer rights would be the ones trying to legislate change rather then use the free market.

roc6783: No, it's as some else said upthread, "If you want me to not be able to trade or resell the game, while not giving me physical media, then I want a price reduction as the value of your game is diminished." Valve said, ok, we'll give you lower cost games and free optional cloud storage. Sony is trying to get the bonus of no resales, without giving up anything to the consumer.

And yes, your analogy is correct. If they want my money and I want their games, we are going to haggle about the "total value" of the game to me. "Total value" includes resales and trading, in addition to the price tag.



See above. New games cost just as much on the PC. All steam sales are is the same clearance prices you see on many older console and pc games in store. Steam isn't any cheaper for a lot of titles then just walking into a store and buying it, outside the annual sale.

Most of the lower priced indie games are priced about the same as they are on XBLA or PSN for similarly scoped titles.
 
2013-01-04 01:39:55 PM

Doc Daneeka: starlost: a used 2008 toyota tacoma doesn't have the same quality and longevity as a new 2013 toyota tacoma and that is why it is cheaper. i'm waiting for the day a car always works and never wears out unless it gets a scratch in the paint and then will never work again.
that disc either works or it doesn't.
if a disc aged like a car or like how just about anything else it would be a better comparison. maybe they should start doing the limited plays system again. didn't best buy have a movie player years ago that let you play a disc a few times? it bombed.

A used book is just as readable and usable as a new one, and doesn't lose value through wear and tear the way a car does. And yet publishers have never attacked the legitimacy of used bookstores.

The video game publishers are full of shiat. They are greedy little piggies that think they are somehow different than any other maker of tangible goods. The right of first sale is a universally acknowledged right of consumers. You buy a book, a CD, a magazine, a DVD, a Blu-Ray, a car, a bicycle, or anything else, and you are perfectly within your rights to lend or resell that object without owing another dime to the manufacturer. Once you pay the purchase price, it is yours to do with as you please. The video game industry is the only industry that consistently attacks this principle, this fundamental right of consumers. People shouldn't stand for it. Being able to buy and sell used goods, things that you own, should be a right that you should not relinquish easily.


College textbook publishers go to great lengths to undermine the used books market. In fact, they do things much more despicable than the video game industry. If I don't like a game, I can refuse to buy it. Capcom doesn't bribe my professor to make sure I fail chemistry and don't get my degree unless I spend $140 on a copy of Resident Evil 6.
 
2013-01-04 01:42:33 PM
It's interesting so many people are against Sony doing this, yet in the same breath they praise Steam as the greatest thing ever.

Does Steam allow you to buy/sell used games? No, they do not. If anything, Sony is trying to become more Steam-like.

But I think Sony won't ban used games when it's all said and done. I know I would not buy a PS4 that couldn't play used games.
 
2013-01-04 01:42:43 PM

Antimatter: And that's actually quite sad. I have to wonder who in the company keeps thinking this is a great idea, despite massive outcry every time. at some point, someone has got to law down the law in favor of what gets them better sales.

For the vita, for example, memory cards are necessarily a bad thing, had they been priced sanely or came with all systems. instead they are way too expensive, and that turned a lot of folks off to the console.

On the ps3, they let Ken go way overboard on some specs, and it cost them their market lead, as well as a few exclusive series. I could have done without cell if it meant a cheaper launch and more games early on.

If they use this anti-used games stuff, they will throw away any chance of retaking the marketplace. the amount of FUD from MS or Nintendo would bury the consoles chances.


I'd like to find the people that bring up ideas like this, send them all to the middle of the Grand Canyon, then drop a nuclear bomb right where they stand.

ha-ha-guy: capnmonkey: I think a better strategy is to pair DLC/in game items/bonuses with new copies of the game, and once you redeem the code and link it to your account its done.

That would tempt some people to pay $50 for the new version which comes with horse armor DLC or whatever, rather than paying shiatty gamestop $35 for a used copy.

That seems the most logical way to do it. I have the XL edition of GT5 which came with a code to get all the DLC available at the time of XL's release and a 20 dollar credit for additional DLC later. So I bought the XL edition new instead of a used copy of GT.

I think this is shortsighted in that a lot of sales still occur from a friend bringing over a disk. The only reason I have Just Cause is a friend lent me the disc for a weekend when he'd be out of town. Had that not happened, I'd never have bought my own copy.


This is the example they should be following. Encourage more people to buy your products, not discourage them by locking out a game.
 
2013-01-04 01:43:59 PM

Tommy Moo: Egoy3k: Neverhood9: Considering the used game market rips off the devs/publisher...I'm okay with this. But I know I'm in the minority,

The used car market doesn't rip off the car manufacturers so why is this true for video games?

Not quite the same... Used video games don't lose their value over time. Nothing that exists solely as 1s and 0s can depreciate, the way a car can. For this reason, there will always be a new car market, as some people are willing to pay for the status.


Not quite the same but not that different. A 2012 model vehicle doesn't have all the same features as a 2013. A new version of the game would have more features. Suddenly that old game has lost value despite maintaining performance. And if it's a sports game it only has a one year shelf life anyways. Dlc rosters have fixed this; but still that game won't be supported forever.

And while the data may not degrade, the storage device will. I burned a hole in my NHL 2k2 game. Probably logged 1000 hours on it but I reached the mbtf point.

Books are the most relevant analogy. But each illustrates the point.
 
2013-01-04 01:44:18 PM

cefm: If they're trying to sell you a $500 game playing device and also sell you $60 games, this won't work. People pay $60 right now for games that they can keep, trade with friends, re-sell, take to a friend's house and play, etc. These things have value. Making it un-sellable, un-tradable, un-transportable makes it worth much much much less. So they had better be considering selling games for $15-$20 NEW or this won't work at all.


True in principle, though I think the discount you're expecting is a bit optimistic. $40-$50 instead of $60 is reasonable. In fact, you do see games come down in price faster and farther on the PlayStation store that shelves.
 
2013-01-04 01:55:45 PM
Is $60 really that bad, people? You're used to (and apparently ok with) paying $15-$20 for 2hrs of entertainment from a movie at the theatre.... yet, you won't spend $60 on 20-50+hrs??

Movie tickets: $10.00/hr
Video games: $1.20-$3.00/hr
 
2013-01-04 01:56:05 PM
I think it's funny that people are all "Whatever, I'll just use Steam." Well...if you're happy downloading games on your PC, I suspect you'll be fine downloading them on your PS4. And that's the real threat to the used game market.

Also, in this current console generation the last three console games I've played were all downloaded: Arkham Assylum, New Vegas, The Walking Dead.

I also have a suspicion that when a game is available at a large discount on the second hand market is when it becomes available on demand in this generation at a discount. So by the time I can buy Dishonored at a discount, I'll probably be able to download it.
 
2013-01-04 02:17:30 PM

Grither: Is $60 really that bad, people? You're used to (and apparently ok with) paying $15-$20 for 2hrs of entertainment from a movie at the theatre.... yet, you won't spend $60 on 20-50+hrs??

Movie tickets: $10.00/hr
Video games: $1.20-$3.00/hr


And if the movie sucks, I'm out $15. If the game sucks and I'm unable to sell it, I'm out 4x that with none of the entertainment time.
 
2013-01-04 02:24:08 PM

KingsleyZisou: Tommy Moo: Egoy3k: Neverhood9: Considering the used game market rips off the devs/publisher...I'm okay with this. But I know I'm in the minority,

The used car market doesn't rip off the car manufacturers so why is this true for video games?

Not quite the same... Used video games don't lose their value over time. Nothing that exists solely as 1s and 0s can depreciate, the way a car can. For this reason, there will always be a new car market, as some people are willing to pay for the status.

Not quite the same but not that different. A 2012 model vehicle doesn't have all the same features as a 2013. A new version of the game would have more features. Suddenly that old game has lost value despite maintaining performance. And if it's a sports game it only has a one year shelf life anyways. Dlc rosters have fixed this; but still that game won't be supported forever.

And while the data may not degrade, the storage device will. I burned a hole in my NHL 2k2 game. Probably logged 1000 hours on it but I reached the mbtf point.

Books are the most relevant analogy. But each illustrates the point.


Most games don't have versions, they have sequels. To use a movie analogy, Jurassic park 1 is not suddenly worth less because the Lost World exists.

To use a game anology, Devil May cry 1 is not worth less because DMC 2 exists, because DMC 1 was the better game.

Sports games are the notable exception, as they are indeed 'versions' due to updated mechanics, stats, features, etc, but the same core gameplay. they, therefore, have little to no resell value or trade in life.

Now, normal games, depending on appeal, rarity, etc, have a reverse bell curve. They start off at once price, lose value, then gain it back as they get older and rarer. In some cases, they resell for far more then they ever retailed for as new games. It's very much like books in that regaurd,

For that reason, you see some classic games get reprinted/digitally released: there is demand for it, and the publishers want in on it. Sadly, for many long sought after games this isn't true. A mint copy of a used game like Lunar 2 complete still fetches a high sum.
 
2013-01-04 02:28:37 PM

006deluxe: Grither: Is $60 really that bad, people? You're used to (and apparently ok with) paying $15-$20 for 2hrs of entertainment from a movie at the theatre.... yet, you won't spend $60 on 20-50+hrs??

Movie tickets: $10.00/hr
Video games: $1.20-$3.00/hr

And if the movie sucks, I'm out $15. If the game sucks and I'm unable to sell it, I'm out 4x that with none of the entertainment time.


If only there were some way of reading review, seeing screenshots and gameplay videos, etc before you buy a game! Alas, all games are blind purchases based on box art.
 
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