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(Talking Points Memo)   The guys who put forth a real filibuster reform package worry about that "bipartisan" package that McCain and the Grumpy Old Men contingent put forth, because it just...might...pass   (tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com) divider line 61
    More: Scary, John McCain, old boys, Jeff Merkley, Carl Levin, filibusters, majority party, reform package, reforms  
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2744 clicks; posted to Politics » on 04 Jan 2013 at 12:33 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-04 09:42:26 AM
Imagine my complete and utter surprise...
 
2013-01-04 09:54:16 AM
Filibuster reform is pointless while the GOP controls the house.
 
2013-01-04 10:12:45 AM

EvilEgg: Filibuster reform is pointless while the GOP controls the house.


The Senate actually being able to send certain kinds of bills for the House to reject would eventually go a long way toward exposing the House's derp. Though arguably, anyone who doesn't see the House's derp by now probably never will.
 
2013-01-04 10:24:45 AM

EvilEgg: Filibuster reform is pointless while the GOP controls the house.


The Senate is broken and the House is gerrymandered until 2022.  At least we can fix the Senate now.
 
2013-01-04 10:31:13 AM

Lumpmoose: EvilEgg: Filibuster reform is pointless while the GOP controls the house.

The Senate is broken and the House is gerrymandered until 2022.  At least we can fix the Senate now.


ITS A CONSPIRACY
 
2013-01-04 11:59:39 AM

cman: Lumpmoose: EvilEgg: Filibuster reform is pointless while the GOP controls the house.

The Senate is broken and the House is gerrymandered until 2022.  At least we can fix the Senate now.

ITS A CONSPIRACY


Republicans won a bunch of state seats in 2010. People usually don't conflate 'political party' to 'conspiracy'.
 
2013-01-04 12:11:31 PM

Lumpmoose: cman: Lumpmoose: EvilEgg: Filibuster reform is pointless while the GOP controls the house.

The Senate is broken and the House is gerrymandered until 2022.  At least we can fix the Senate now.

ITS A CONSPIRACY

Republicans won a bunch of state seats in 2010. People usually don't conflate 'political party' to 'conspiracy'.


Well, will Dems gerrymander back to make them gain more seats when the Republicans lose control of the house?

Gerrymandering is gerrymandering regardless of political party
 
2013-01-04 12:29:34 PM

hubiestubert: Imagine my complete and utter surprise...


I'm imagining something like this:  -_-
 
2013-01-04 12:29:55 PM

cman: Gerrymandering is gerrymandering regardless of political party


Obvious statements with cman...
 
2013-01-04 12:38:16 PM
It is one thing if it is an important issue with real opposition based on understandable differences. It is another when a minority party starts this crap on every single appointment, bill, or farking post office renaming out of spite.

Fark you obstructionists.
 
2013-01-04 12:40:06 PM
i45.tinypic.com
RRRRRRREEEEPUBLICAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNSSSSSSS!
 
2013-01-04 12:40:57 PM
The McCain Forced Pork bill has a chance?
 
2013-01-04 12:41:32 PM
There is big money in filibustering bills, no way this ever gets changed.
 
2013-01-04 12:43:19 PM

Lumpmoose: EvilEgg: Filibuster reform is pointless while the GOP controls the house.

The Senate is broken and the House is gerrymandered until 2022.  At least we can fix the Senate now.


The fix is only temporary. His point, and it's a good one, is what's the point of fixing the Senate when the House is significantly more broken? The best we can hope for over the next two years is more political pressure by the Senate passing things and the House ignoring them and some Senate specific things like approving judges.
 
2013-01-04 12:43:22 PM
The McCain-Levin filibuster reform gives the minority party the ability to insert poison pills into any legislation. And in return for this largess, the republicans agree to keep using the exact same silent filibuster that they've been using ever since the President became near.
 
2013-01-04 12:43:35 PM

unlikely: The McCain Forced Pork bill has a chance?


Reid will sell out, per usual.
 
2013-01-04 12:45:27 PM

cman: Gerrymandering is gerrymandering regardless of political party


No, gerrymandering is only in regards to specifically changing representative lines in order to gain an advantage. If you're changing representative lines to return to a geographic or some other non-partisan basis, not gerrymandering.
 
2013-01-04 12:46:40 PM
This thread seems strangely familiar.
 
2013-01-04 12:47:07 PM

lennavan: Lumpmoose: EvilEgg: Filibuster reform is pointless while the GOP controls the house.

The Senate is broken and the House is gerrymandered until 2022.  At least we can fix the Senate now.

The fix is only temporary. His point, and it's a good one, is what's the point of fixing the Senate when the House is significantly more broken? The best we can hope for over the next two years is more political pressure by the Senate passing things and the House ignoring them and some Senate specific things like approving judges.


An up-or-down vote on all Presidential nominations with no 'holds' or 'buried in committee' is the one reform that should get done, regardless of other considerations.
 
2013-01-04 12:48:52 PM

lennavan: Lumpmoose: EvilEgg: Filibuster reform is pointless while the GOP controls the house.

The Senate is broken and the House is gerrymandered until 2022.  At least we can fix the Senate now.

The fix is only temporary. His point, and it's a good one, is what's the point of fixing the Senate when the House is significantly more broken? The best we can hope for over the next two years is more political pressure by the Senate passing things and the House ignoring them and some Senate specific things like approving judges.


His point is not a good one.
He's saying "Why fix the Senate? The House will still be broken." And in a few years when we can fix the House, he'll say "Why fix the House? The Senate will still be broken."

If your car has a flat tire and a broken windshield, you don't say "Why bother with fixing either one of these things? It'll still be undriveable with the other broken." You fix one, and then you fix the other.
 
2013-01-04 12:50:49 PM
Jesus tapdancing Christ!

Can the stupid Democrats EVER stick to their guns and do what they say they'll do? At least the Republicans are committed to their goals (even though many of them should be committed period)
 
2013-01-04 12:52:15 PM
The dueling proposal, spearheaded by longtime Sens. John McCain (R-AZ) and Carl Levin (D-MI), would make it somewhat tougher for the minority to block debate on legislation but also guarantee them two amendments on bills, regardless of germaneness or relevancy to the main topic of the legislation.

Liberals could be worrying too much about this. Poison pills are attached to bills through amendments all of the time -- it's not like this will open the door to the practice, it's just going to get rid of some of the parliamentary maneuvering required to pull it off.

/not saying I favor this reform package over Merkley's; just pointing out a fact.
 
2013-01-04 12:52:45 PM

Karac: If your car has a flat tire and a broken windshield, you don't say "Why bother with fixing either one of these things? It'll still be undriveable with the other broken." You fix one, and then you fix the other.


Your car has a flat tire (Senate) and also is missing an entire farking wheel (House). You're filling up the flat and he's saying what's teh goddamn point, you're missing a wheel on the other side and it will take you two years to fix that. I imagine we can give him a call in 2 years when it will actually matter.

Karac: If your car has a flat tire and a broken windshield, you don't say "Why bother with fixing either one of these things? It'll still be undriveable with the other broken." You fix one, and then you fix the other.


Let me tell you, if the windshield for my car was on backorder for at least 2 years, I wouldn't see the point in fixing the flat.
 
2013-01-04 12:55:19 PM
If I were a right wing conspiracy theorist, I'd posit that every year we're just gonna get one giant budget bill passed via reconcilliation with only loose ties to actual budgetary policy and after Obama packs the supreme court with left wing judges it will be deemed entirely constitutional.

If I were a right wing conspiracy theorist.
 
2013-01-04 12:56:09 PM

lennavan: Lumpmoose: EvilEgg: Filibuster reform is pointless while the GOP controls the house.

The Senate is broken and the House is gerrymandered until 2022.  At least we can fix the Senate now.

The fix is only temporary. His point, and it's a good one, is what's the point of fixing the Senate when the House is significantly more broken? The best we can hope for over the next two years is more political pressure by the Senate passing things and the House ignoring them and some Senate specific things like approving judges.


The House isn't significantly more broken. It is significantly less broken. It is in control of complete assholes, They vote on or against bills, and if it gets a majority it passes. That isn't broken, that's democracy.

In the Senate, one asshole can stymie the entire progress of the nation. A minority of one can rule. That is broken.
 
2013-01-04 12:59:46 PM
Republican Senator #1 "I've invented another way for us to do less work to be more obstructive."
Republican Senator #2 "Brilliant!"
 
2013-01-04 01:00:19 PM
If the McCain bill allows for two amendments then amend his bill to have a talking filibuster. Problem solved.
 
2013-01-04 01:03:15 PM

AngryDragon: At least the Republicans are committed to their goals.


Which is why they chose Romney to represent them in the election, neh?
 
2013-01-04 01:05:07 PM

AngryDragon: Can the stupid Democrats EVER stick to their guns and do what they say they'll do? At least the Republicans are committed to their goals (even though many of them should be committed period)


You mean like how Mitch McConnell does what he says he'll do?

Link
 
2013-01-04 01:06:55 PM

Lord_Baull: AngryDragon: At least the Republicans are committed to their goals.

Which is why they chose Romney to represent them in the election, neh?


Nobody ever said the GOP knew what those goals actually were. Just that they stuck to them.
 
2013-01-04 01:07:10 PM

DaSwankOne: If the McCain bill allows for two amendments then amend his bill to have a talking filibuster. Problem solved.


Ah, but those two amendments are for the minority party -- you know, the GOP. Every amendment will be to give Hitler a posthumous Congressional Medal of Honor.
 
2013-01-04 01:10:04 PM

Rent Party: The House isn't significantly more broken. It is significantly less broken.


You're the only person in the entire United States that believes this.

Rent Party: It is in control of complete assholes


No one controls the House, that's the funny bit. Not even John Boehner.
 
2013-01-04 01:11:24 PM

Arkanaut: DaSwankOne: If the McCain bill allows for two amendments then amend his bill to have a talking filibuster. Problem solved.

Ah, but those two amendments are for the minority party -- you know, the GOP. Every amendment will be to give Hitler a posthumous Congressional Medal of Honor.


Everything I am reading about the McCain/Levin proposal is that if enacted both parties have a chance to propose 2 amendments each to be voted on with a majority need to pass. It aint like it is giving the minority party instant amendatory powers.
 
2013-01-04 01:17:19 PM

lennavan: Rent Party: The House isn't significantly more broken. It is significantly less broken.

You're the only person in the entire United States that believes this.



No I'm not. I may be the only one in this conversation that knows what the role of the legislature is, though. The role of the legislature is to create legislation. The House is doing that. The Senate is not. That the legislation coming out of the house is generally reprehensible is not in question, but that is an issue with the electorate electing assholes, not a broken House.


Rent Party: It is in control of complete assholes

No one controls the House, that's the funny bit. Not even John Boehner.


The GOP controls the House. Go ahead and take a look at the number of bills passed by the house in 2012, and how many of them made it through the Senate. In 2010 there were almost 200 House approved bills that the Senate was sitting on.

The Senate is broken. It is not debating or voting on legislation. The House is.
 
2013-01-04 01:17:53 PM

EvilEgg: Filibuster reform is pointless while the GOP controls the house.


Well the fiscal cliff thingy passed without Boehner's help. I'm not sure who controls the House.
 
2013-01-04 01:21:47 PM

lennavan: Rent Party: The House isn't significantly more broken. It is significantly less broken.

You're the only person in the entire United States that believes this.

Rent Party: It is in control of complete assholes

No one controls the House, that's the funny bit. Not even John Boehner.


I agree that Boehner does not control the House, but that is a problem of the Republican Party not the institution.

The Senate really is broken. It is a messed of remnant of slavery anyway, and probably should be abolished. But failing that, it needs to get rid of its stupid filibuster (piracy) rules, which are a remnant of its worst era -- the 1840s and 1850s.
 
2013-01-04 01:24:37 PM

lennavan: The fix is only temporary. His point, and it's a good one, is what's the point of fixing the Senate when the House is significantly more broken? The best we can hope for over the next two years is more political pressure by the Senate passing things and the House ignoring them and some Senate specific things like approving judges.


Great point. Therefore, the Democrats should not bother with filibuster reform.

I don't know if this is the conclusion you intend for people to draw. But it's the one they do when they read a post like yours.

You do reforms when you can. The historical moment for filibuster reform is now. The damn thing should really just be abolished. But short of that, it should be made as weak as possible.
 
2013-01-04 01:25:25 PM

Bermuda59: Republican Senator #1 "I've invented another way for us to do less work to be more obstructive."
Republican Senator #2 "Brilliant!"


All Senators: Now let's give ourselves another pay raise!
 
2013-01-04 01:28:36 PM

Saiga410: Everything I am reading about the McCain/Levin proposal is that if enacted both parties have a chance to propose 2 amendments each to be voted on with a majority need to pass. It aint like it is giving the minority party instant amendatory powers.


I think that's correct. It's not perfect, but it is a small step in the general direction of sanity. Of course, they aren't going to look at secret holds, right? So nothing will continue to get done in the Senate. And if something does accidentally get passed, it'll be sent to the House to die a lonely death.
 
2013-01-04 01:38:57 PM
Seeing that cloud shouters version is not really reform and will do nothing to address the problem, then yes, it is a concern that it will pass.
 
2013-01-04 01:58:21 PM

Arkanaut: DaSwankOne: If the McCain bill allows for two amendments then amend his bill to have a talking filibuster. Problem solved.

Ah, but those two amendments are for the minority party -- you know, the GOP. Every amendment will be to give Hitler a posthumous Congressional Medal of Honor.


That would be a waste - because the proposed amendment -

ONLY GUARANTEES A RIGHT TO A VOTE ON TWO MINORITY AMENDMENTS!!!

It doesn't guarantee that two amendments are ACCEPTED.

The real travesty is that it doesn't get rid of the one person anonymous hold.
 
2013-01-04 02:05:09 PM
Here's the kind of progress we can expect from the world's most exalted deliberative body:

U.S. Sen. John Cornyn (R-ape) unveils the Republican Party's 2014 message: Cut Medicare, Social Security and Medicaid ... or we'll shut the whole damn government down

"The coming deadlines will be the next flashpoints in our ongoing fight to bring fiscal sanity to Washington. It may be necessary to partially shut down the government in order to secure the long-term fiscal well being of our country, rather than plod along the path of Greece, Italy and Spain. President Obama needs to take note of this reality and put forward a plan to avoid it immediately."
 
DGS [TotalFark]
2013-01-04 02:07:58 PM

Lumpmoose: EvilEgg: Filibuster reform is pointless while the GOP controls the house.

The Senate is broken and the House is gerrymandered until 2022.  At least we can fix the Senate now.


I sure hope we can at least try to fix one of them. The poison pill version is absurd. How anyone can view that as a good plan is beyond me.
 
2013-01-04 02:08:41 PM

Rent Party: lennavan: Rent Party: The House isn't significantly more broken. It is significantly less broken.

You're the only person in the entire United States that believes this.

No I'm not.



Yes you are.

Rent Party: The role of the legislature is to create legislation. The House is doing that.



Yeah like the recent fiscal cliff deal. Oh wait.

Rent Party: That the legislation coming out of the house is generally reprehensible is not in question, but that is an issue with the electorate electing assholes, not a broken House.



You can make the same argument for the Senate. Utilization of the filibuster ensures the minorities are not being trampled. That filibusters are generally used for reprehensible reasons is not in question but that is an issue with the electorate electing assholes who abuse it, not a broken Senate. The problem is not with the filibuster, the problem is with the assholes abusing the filibuster.

But I digress, I get what you're saying and I agree it's farked up. But three entities need to get together and compromise. The House, the Senate and the POTUS. Things may be passing through the Senate slowly but at least the things passing the Senate might possibly ever become law. You're excited about a high-throughput derp factory that produces nothing usable. I'm telling you the low-throughput jackassfest that every now and then accomplishes something usable is superior.
 
2013-01-04 02:21:05 PM

ilambiquated: The Senate really is broken. It is a messed of remnant of slavery anyway, and probably should be abolished. But failing that, it needs to get rid of its stupid filibuster (piracy) rules, which are a remnant of its worst era -- the 1840s and 1850s.


mittromneysdog: The historical moment for filibuster reform is now.


Filibuster reform is not possible. It's a rule voted upon by each Senate. Your grand historical reform lasts 2 years. These reforms will always and only be a temporary solution. Now hang on while I grab my partisan hackery hat.

The Republicans are significantly better at politics than the Democrats and looking at recent history in the Senate, the Republicans are an incredibly tight knit group, whereas the Democrats are not. You can guarantee moving forward when the Republicans are in the majority, if banning the filibuster has already been done, they're gonna do it. Once you open that door, the (R)'s are going charging through. You cannot guarantee moving forward the Democrats will do the same.

This isn't the first time we have talked about making significant changes to the filibuster after a recent (R) Senate filibustered the fark out of bills. Even then, the (D)s in the majority were not able to get a consensus and do it. You get that, right?

You guys realize, there will be a day when R's hold Congress and the White House, right? Without the filibuster, what do you think will happen to abortion then? What do you think will happen to Obamacare? Now imagine lots of other issues.
 
2013-01-04 02:48:21 PM

cman: Lumpmoose: cman: Lumpmoose: EvilEgg: Filibuster reform is pointless while the GOP controls the house.

The Senate is broken and the House is gerrymandered until 2022.  At least we can fix the Senate now.

ITS A CONSPIRACY

Republicans won a bunch of state seats in 2010. People usually don't conflate 'political party' to 'conspiracy'.

Well, will Dems gerrymander back to make them gain more seats when the Republicans lose control of the house?

Gerrymandering is gerrymandering regardless of political party


There is no room for degrees? the fact is that the GOP doesn't have the demographic advantage anymore and so has turned to a geographic advantage. It will dissolve over time.
 
2013-01-04 03:01:22 PM

Evil High Priest: Saiga410: Everything I am reading about the McCain/Levin proposal is that if enacted both parties have a chance to propose 2 amendments each to be voted on with a majority need to pass. It aint like it is giving the minority party instant amendatory powers.

I think that's correct. It's not perfect, but it is a small step in the general direction of sanity. Of course, they aren't going to look at secret holds, right? So nothing will continue to get done in the Senate. And if something does accidentally get passed, it'll be sent to the House to die a lonely death.


Why in the ever-living fark is that "more sane"?

Today:
We will vote on this bill.

No you won't.

Yes we will/No we won't. move on.

In the M-L system:
We will vote on this bill.

No you won't, you will vote on that bill, but it will contain language giving my constituency more money and/or giving me ammunition against you in upcoming elections.

Oh yeah, well before we resolve combat I play Counter which leaves the stack immediately and removes the effects of the previously cast spell. In response to playing an Instant I place a counter on each of my artifact creatures and sacrifice two of them to add an amendment of my own which states that all senators of the party opposing that which holds the majority of votes in facor of this legislation has to flap their arms like a chicken and quack like a duck before proposing any new motions.
 
2013-01-04 03:01:35 PM

lennavan: mittromneysdog: The historical moment for filibuster reform is now.

Filibuster reform is not possible. It's a rule voted upon by each Senate. Your grand historical reform lasts 2 years. These reforms will always and only be a temporary solution.


Getting up, going to the toilet and taking a dump is a temporary solution too. They'll just have to do it again tomorrow, or approximately 700 times in the 2 years that filibuster reform would last. The fact that it's not a permanent solution is no reason for them to continue crapping their pants.
 
2013-01-04 03:03:38 PM
Would McConnell allow these reforms if the roles were reversed?
 
2013-01-04 03:22:17 PM

Karac: lennavan: mittromneysdog: The historical moment for filibuster reform is now.

Filibuster reform is not possible. It's a rule voted upon by each Senate. Your grand historical reform lasts 2 years. These reforms will always and only be a temporary solution.

Getting up, going to the toilet and taking a dump is a temporary solution too. They'll just have to do it again tomorrow, or approximately 700 times in the 2 years that filibuster reform would last. The fact that it's not a permanent solution is no reason for them to continue crapping their pants.


That's not a toilet, that's a room with a monkey and he's going to fling it right back at you. So no, I don't see the point in getting up.
 
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