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(Some Guy)   MMOrpg's for hardcore players? The Loch Ness monster of gaming   (gamemethod.com) divider line 213
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19364 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Dec 2003 at 5:50 AM (10 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2003-12-11 07:23:45 AM  
IT'S NOT A MIRROR!!!
 
2003-12-11 07:23:59 AM  
Jesu frigging CRIMINY!! Why is this NOT posted as "Asshat"!?! Logged on for a few, and this link was a "COOL!?!"

Jesus frigging christ, Drew, you REALLY need to screen your screeners.

This is SOOO frigging reversed, if this is the news/opinions we are going to be subjected to, might as well set my homepage to "marthastewart.com"

Gawd, just realized my fav site is a damned 'cursed tansvestite asshat anal plug request line!!!

Anyone have suggestions of a site that is what fark.com pretended to be prior to showning thier true colours?

Do you have ANY idea how many apologies I now have to make!?! COMPLETELY seriously. I actually have been SUGGESTING this site for months... to about some 1,500+ ppl. Not sure, but I think I now have to commit suicide to make up for this.

Drew, change your name to Jim Jones, and be honest about the Kool-Aid you give out.
 
2003-12-11 07:25:09 AM  
NERD ALERT!
 
2003-12-11 07:25:28 AM  
Haha.. player-killers who are upset because there's not enough people to murder. Yep, that's what most PKers consider "full player interaction", being able to kill you without your consent, over and over until you decide to log off. It's even better in some games where the death penalty is harsh, i.e. when you lose equipment, etc.

But I'm sure some ex-"hardcore" gamer will call me a carebear in 5... 4... 3...
 
2003-12-11 07:32:28 AM  
I am happy to say that I have no idea what this refers to:

"How many EQ/UO re-skins can we think of? AC2, SWG, SB just to list a few."

Dude, if you think of more than 1, you need to go out and getchaself some p*ssy.
 
2003-12-11 07:33:01 AM  
It's a sad state of affairs that a game released in 1997(Ultima Online) is superior in so many fundamental ways

Has a better RPG been made since Fallout for that matter? Never Played Fallout Tactics, though. What about Furcadia?
 
2003-12-11 07:35:26 AM  
Damn carebear. Don't you know how fun it is to go AFK for 30 seconds and find you have been killed in 1 hit by a UBER L33T GOSU HUK HUK ^_____________^ CHOBO N00B player? Or the joy of arriving in a town/whatever and instantly being attacked by someone abusing unbalanced skills, who you can't avoid or out fight?
 
2003-12-11 07:37:34 AM  
"How many EQ/UO re-skins can we think of? AC2, SWG, SB just to list a few."

Everquest, Ultima Online, Asheron's Call 2, Star Wars: Galaxies, and Strong Bad (in that order).
 
2003-12-11 07:38:34 AM  
I have a lame story to share:

Anyway, my friend own an internet cafe. So I see people playing EQ, talking about kill stealing and whatnot.

Anyway, they got the new Lord Of The Rings game, and a bunch of people were watching it on TV. There's a level where the player was Sam the Hobbit, and they were in the castle. One of the CPU powered NPC humans was beating up an orc or ogre or whatever, and my friend ran over and finished it.

I exclaimed aghast "DON'T KILL STEAL!!!"

And they all busted out laughing. Because they play too many MMORPGSDKJFDLSKFs.

But it was funny.
 
2003-12-11 07:39:11 AM  
Carebear! ;)

WhackingDay, you have a point. But you're referring to a pretty bad implementation of a PvP (PK) system, that would allow that kind of thing in the first place.

It's the classic argument of whether PK can be considered RP (Roleplaying) or anti-RP. Personally, I think if it's implemented properly, that risk factor can make the game much more interesting and enhance RP. On the other hand, poorly implemented PvP systems can detract totally from the game because, as you stated, cheesy spam PKers just sit around a newbie area and just keep killing you repeatedly just to be dicks.

Of course, what do I know, I've been banned from MUDs for being too good a PKer. ;)

The ironic thing is when I first started on MUDs I was totally useless and PvP and I died a lot to other players. I was also such a bleeding heart newb-friendly player who'd always help other people, help them retrieve equipment, their bodies from aggressive monsters, or heal/cure them when they were on the verge of dying. I even helped build up a total newbie-friendly helper clan.

But killing whiny annoying players is infinitely more satisfying. ;)
 
2003-12-11 07:40:01 AM  
People Don't WANT real PvP. WW2OL is the hardest PvP on the planet and dosn't have more than 20000 customers because of it. People want to play in shoeboxes or be an elf and fight lame brain AI (the AI in WW2OL consists of static LMG's and light AT guns that can't move, have a 60 degree fire arc, can't hit fast moving units and people STILL complain when they get killed by it).

And posts like this don't belong on Fark unless it's a babe with big breasts on the cover. We don't want to talk about MMOG's HERE for gawds sake.
 
2003-12-11 07:41:28 AM  
peter_hook, I know what you mean. As a veteran of many a MUD meet/convention in various cities/states, I've heard (and made) some of the worst gaming in-jokes of that variety AND had people laughing. :P

But it's still really geeky to some people. *sigh*
 
2003-12-11 07:43:32 AM  
I love when fark has articles like this.

Bigger. losers. than. me. what relief.


MOMORPEG FOR HARDCORE PLAYERS??

I figured it would be "Hip Hop Industry Tycoon" or "SimCrypts"
 
2003-12-11 07:44:28 AM  
Krantzstone

So you can appreciate the snowball effect of it

Me, not being a MMORPGer making a joke about it, which happened to be timely, which is what they were probably about to think out loud but wouldn't say, and then them laughing about it, and me laughing more cuz I made them laugh at a goofy joke, then them laughing at themselves cuz they were dorky enough to find it funny.
 
2003-12-11 07:45:29 AM  
Lockness monster last seen with Phranqenstyn.
 
2003-12-11 07:48:37 AM  
Carebear!

UO used to be great. Til the un-imaginative lazy un-socialites biatched and moaned about how hard it was and how the pks are bad evil lazy un-social and anti-social ect.

Guy Pked you? Go find some buddys to come and whack him.

There were things you could do to avoid getting whacked in UO.

DAoC was ok too, but whiners ruined that game too. Spend hours and hours and hours (days weeks months) mindlessly killing the flora and fauna. Then all of a sudden they change the game making your charector less effective. Very annoying.

Anyways Carebears and the un-imaginative lazy peoples ruined the MMORPG's.
 
2003-12-11 07:51:17 AM  
Aw crap... I'm still hooked on Team Fortress (and Counter-Strike).
 
2003-12-11 07:52:57 AM  
This thread is almost enough to make me want to start playing Asheron's Call again. Especially now that I hear that they made spell-casting so much simpler without those damned annoying spell components that cost so much and took up so much pack space. :P

It sucks being an OG Mage early on.

/MT Morningthaw server represent!
 
2003-12-11 07:57:56 AM  
PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT:

For all of you FARKers wondering what to make of this gobbledygook, I've collected some things that make no sense that you can ask people to clarify.

Your vocabulary words for the day are:

MMORPG
carebear
nerf
fanboy
mudding/MUDs
munchkin
twinkish
Pkers
Tos
Sever 104
noobs
PvP

I gotta say, some of those things sound quite manly. I bet if you went up to woman in a bar, said you wanted to nerf her noobs and twink her munchkin like a carebear, you'd probably get some hot action.

Or arrested.

A language and culture all it's own...
 
2003-12-11 07:58:12 AM  
acid test for a good vs non good MMORPG.

Is there unrestricted FFA PvP?

No? I'll pass.
 
2003-12-11 07:58:20 AM  
Yes Mr. Retard with All caps name!

"un-imaginative lazy un-socialites biatched and moaned about how hard it was and how the pks are bad evil lazy un-social and anti-social ect."

Why would the PKers biatch about themselves? It is very hard to even think of someone more unsocial, lazy or retarded then a PKer standing by a place where players appear in a new area then going "OMG FAGOT N00B PWNED" when their Shiny Bow/Sword/Gun +200 kills them almost instantly.

What about other types of games? Quake/HL/Halo? "Spend hours and hours and hours mindlessly killing the flora and fauna". StarCraft/WC3/C&C? you get my point I hope.
 
2003-12-11 07:58:54 AM  
If you want to kill other players, why not play FPS games? They are made for player competition.

I played Asheron's Call on Darktide and had a blast. That had some fun PvP in it. I've monkeyed around for a little bit with other mmorpg type games and thought mostly all of the one's I've tried sucked. Which is the reason I don't even bother playing them anymore unless a friend tells me to try it.

Anyhow, if you want to kill other players give Call of Duty a try. It's a good WW2 shooter.
 
2003-12-11 08:09:33 AM  
Uhh...

I once played Warcraft III on Battle.net...!

Is that sorta similar to what they're talking about?

Throwing a hammer at a Mage on a Horsie is fun...
 
2003-12-11 08:16:59 AM  
So, does that web site ever have reviews written by people who have moved out of the parental basement? According to that poor basement-dweller, people who haven't the time to devote 24-7 to an MMORPG are just "lazy". Riiiiiiiight. Doing neurosci research and writing papers is "laziness". Raising three children is "lazy". Of course. The only non-"lazy" behavior is sitting on ass in basement of parents, playing "hardcore" MMORPG.

To quote the best geek-related monologue ever: "Get a life. Move out of your parents' basements."
 
2003-12-11 08:20:47 AM  
Jesu frigging CRIMINY!! Why is this NOT posted as "Asshat"!?! Logged on for a few, and this link was a "COOL!?!"

Jesus frigging christ, Drew, you REALLY need to screen your screeners.

This is SOOO frigging reversed, if this is the news/opinions we are going to be subjected to, might as well set my homepage to "marthastewart.com"

Gawd, just realized my fav site is a damned 'cursed tansvestite asshat anal plug request line!!!

Anyone have suggestions of a site that is what fark.com pretended to be prior to showning thier true colours?

Do you have ANY idea how many apologies I now have to make!?! COMPLETELY seriously. I actually have been SUGGESTING this site for months... to about some 1,500+ ppl. Not sure, but I think I now have to commit suicide to make up for this.

Drew, change your name to Jim Jones, and be honest about the Kool-Aid you give out.
 
2003-12-11 08:21:57 AM  
2003-12-11 08:09:33 AM Red Space Dragon


Uhh...

I once played Warcraft III on Battle.net...!

Is that sorta similar to what they're talking about?

Throwing a hammer at a Mage on a Horsie is fun...


75 farkING MANA THATS farkING IMBALANCE
 
2003-12-11 08:25:18 AM  
Soulshorne

what the fark are you talking about and why the fark did you feel the need to post it twice.
 
2003-12-11 08:28:01 AM  
Yeah, the mage was, totally, like, "I'm gonna rain down Ice on you and your allies, and it will hurt!"

But, I was, like, "Oh no you don't! Eat hammer!"

Then the mage was, like, "Oh yeah, well I'm not stunned anymore! Here's more ice!"

And I was like "Oh yeah, well here's more Hammer!"

Then the mage was like, "Oh no, I gotta get of of here!"

Then I was, like, "Oh no you don't! Eat hammer!"

Then the mage and his horsie floated away into the sky.
 
2003-12-11 08:28:09 AM  
I had a character on the DarkTide server, but I never really played (I even had a bunch of those little dolls that they gave out). I was going to go Red on MT, but then I got a girlfriend and so I pretty much stopped playing AC. I gave my account to my friend, and I think he started using my characters as portal biatches for his other characters (because I had a couple of characters who had I devoted to learning transport spells).

AC was fun though.
 
2003-12-11 08:29:08 AM  
WORLDDOMINATIONISMYGOAL

I don't disagree with your theory, but I was playing UO at the beginning. Apart from the bugs and server crashes, the game was clearly (my opinion) setup to be a kill-fest. Pleas to the gods went unanswered (they fixed petty stuff and left the major bugs in for a LONG time).

Example (from UO):

I had a Miner/Tinker/Blacksmith, the intention being that I could (eventually) just ply my trade (which was, in retrospect, a bad idea since they didn't care to make a citizen-run economy), chat with folks, maybe head out on an adventure or two when I was feeling lucky (maybe it's just me, but that's what an RPG should be like -- you can do your own thing but you're also praised for good deeds and held accountable for crimes). Not many other folks (at that time) bothered with trades, they all went on killing sprees in dungeons or lay in wait between towns and jumped anyone passing through, and that's cool in my book. However, because of the game mechanics (and the boredom on the part of PK's I suppose), I would be out in the mine outside Minoc (where the invisible city line neatly cut through it) and constantly be abused while minding my own business digging ore. Now, that's still fine by me. If some jerkass wants to either try to fight me (usually a next to naked miner with a pick) or to go invis and pick my pocket, great. However, I should have been able to fight back. Certainly that was not the case at that time. If I got the note that someone was picking through my backpack, I could try to attack them. They'd simply run across the city line, yell for the guards, I'd be insta-killed and they'd be able to loot my body, plus I'd gain the negative notoriety. It was simply a broken system, and they didn't bother to fix it (at least not while I was playing).
 
2003-12-11 08:36:07 AM  
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this "Hardcore Gamer" rant really just a "PKing Asshole" rant?
 
2003-12-11 08:40:17 AM  
Soulshorne, get over it. This is one link out of many. Fark is pretty much the same place it was before you decided - of your own free will - to recommend it to others. I am sure that those people won't care enough to throw it back in your face, but if they do, perhaps it will remind you not to recommend websites to whining idiots who blame you for circumstances beyond your control.

I don't like ALL of the links on Fark myself, but then again, I never expect someone else's website to cater completely to my personal preferences.

And Fark is provided to you with no charges attached, after all. On what basis do you think you can demand what content is approved/rejected?
 
2003-12-11 08:42:32 AM  
Ok, wanted to change that last line, and mayhaps _I_ am an asshat, but cannot seem to find any form of an "Edit" option.

Edit need? *Sheepish grin*:

... "Drew, you REALLY need to screen your screeners."
... "Drew, change your name to Jim Jones, and be honest about the Kool-Aid you give out."


Ok, so I tend to get tempermental; worse, I am a "lurk" that tends to only respond when something blows my lid. Guilty as charged.

Still the gist is still true.

Is it too late to amend to something along the lines of:


"Drew, Drew, Drew... *insert satirical, yet somewhat profoundly true (whilst treading the edge of current acceptance) observation; *REMEMBER: add in witty line that notes others proofread submissions, NOT Drew himself; but that said proofreaders should be sternly reprimanded. Recommend they be horridly beaten with wet cats**?
 
2003-12-11 08:52:30 AM  
Login: Soulshorne
Fark account number: 123087
Account created: 2003-11-27 07:37:53

 
2003-12-11 08:58:33 AM  
Played iRO for quite a while but gave up after Gravity started playing sillybuggers, (there was an imbalence caused by the 2x XP event we gave you to compensate for our post hack rollback, so we rolled back again, enjoy...) I lost my fkn acolyte guild twice in a week! bastards!

And to those of you who say that it is for people with no socail lives. Its a lot more social than watching TV and eating on the couch. Funnily enough i am not really into pubbing and clubbing because, although i like the taste of real ale, dont want to get bladdered and talk with people only interested in watching sport or bragging about how many people they slept with. I'm sorry but i pity those people.

Real life is all about making money and paying bills. There is challenge left other than your own survival. This is a world where you are arrested for GBH for attacking a thief in your home, where if you are mugged in the street yuor only defence is your wit and where pizza gets to your house faster than the police do. Why go out to a pub and buy overpriced overtaxed products to talk when i could spend an evening sat in a corner of a game talking to people.

Helping someone in the game gave me genuine grattitute, in real life if i hold a door open for someone i often just have people looking right through me as though i wasnt even there. Real life isnt worth it. My partner and i met in IRC and have been together now for over 4 years, we are both geeks and love to game together when we have the chance, we have different specialties and work on PC based projects together, we have a good internet social life.

And the final statement to those bashing nerds and geeks, i quote maddox. "To all those jocks who called me a computer geek in school, just remember to smile when bagging my groceries"
 
2003-12-11 09:00:44 AM  
Can yew poot some bonis points in mah drinkin skills?
 
2003-12-11 09:01:40 AM  
the problem with massmogs isn't that they cater to carebears, it's that they cater to hardcore gamers.

hardcore gamers are the only ones who see the -result- of level grinding and loot gathering as the 'fun' part. they want to get the power up and win the game. being stronger and richer than someone else is their goal. most everyone else would rather the -process- itself be fun, not just being able to say 'i'm level eleventybillion and you're not'.

it's not about being lazy, it's about bad game design.

massmogs are almost all designed around the outdated concepts of the 'level' and 'downtime'. Those were sloppy simplifications when they were first made. Keeping those concepts is a big part of what keeps casual players away, not pvp modes.

Those two combined is what makes it implausible for a casual gamer to pay $15/mo for a massmog. You get only a few hours a week to play, and more than half of that is spent sitting, waiting, and 'grinding'.

They just don't have enough free time to 'keep up' with the average 'level' of the playerbase on their server. And if they can't 'keep up', they can't adventure with, can't trade with, and can't provide any service for anyone else. The game is effectively tries to throw them out for having a family and a career. Is it any surprise the remaining players are obsessively dedicated? You quite simply can't play those games and be anything but.

For the same reason, before anyone complains that there's no 'player interaction' in massmogs, they should complain that, there aren't enough players worth interacting with.

Nearly everyone familiar with these games is familiar with Bartlett's typologies. The reason it always seems to boil down to pvp modes currently is because hardcore gamer's core interests boil down to 'achiever' and 'killer'. achievers don't typically dig on having a 'killer' interfere with their 'achievement' by way of 'surprise' or gaming the 'level' system to guarantee asymmetric combat. And by no small surprise, achievers are the majority.

But addressing that via a 'consensual' pvp system (or no pvp) is avoiding the core problem. The oft-reused game mechanics are the part that guarantee the risk/reward ratio for killers is overwhelmingly tilted toward 'reward'. There is literally nearly no risk for the killer, and no reward for the victim.

What developers need to realize is that it isn't about pvp-modes - it's about the game mechanics that guarantee there's nothing about the game -worth- putting up with the hassle for.
 
2003-12-11 09:02:00 AM  
Sorry for spelling mistakes, too much damn blood in my caffiene vessels again...
 
2003-12-11 09:02:17 AM  
Anyone who's interested in a gaming experience that requires no monthly fees, try RetroMud.

i don't play it, but I see banner ads for it posted everwhere I go (it seems)
 
2003-12-11 09:03:39 AM  
Problems with PvP:

Too many variables. Not just your stats, or your skill percentages, but what type of ring, underwear, weapon type, combination skill set, supply in your backpack, and what type of asshat pack of players you ganked with or got ganked by. Not to mention dial-up speed vs. cable modem, or utility programs the game allowed that you had to choose to pay for or not. And a bazillion other variables x 10.

Not to mention all the sooper-secret exploitations, like wormholes that let you duplicate items, or hacks that let you launch 100 fireballs instantaneously.

Bottom line: theres a huge bunch of people out there who will go to great lengths to grief you. No matter where you go in a MMORPG, you'll find 'em. To lure you in the industry has to control behaviors of people who are basically just shiatheads.

Then they change the ruleset on you with a major patch, and you have to figure it out all over again. Treadmilling, blech.

CapnKirk, super 7eet Necromancer of UO for 75 months. I fought side by side with 'Superwoman' against the Lich Lords just last eve, dOOd!
 
2003-12-11 09:08:04 AM  
No, no edit option (although preview can help -- I use it a lot myself).

So, you weren't trying to be a total retard. Well, I wasn't trying to be a biatch. Sorry if it came across that way at all.
 
2003-12-11 09:11:57 AM  
I really like the basic idea of MMORPGs but never found one that seemed to be worth playing. They all seem to be plagued with various problems that left me disinterested.
Im kinda hoping Blizzard's world of warcraft will be a MMORPG worth playing. Blizzard has a good track record with games.

2 side notes:

1.) wow am i sick of people who try to insult gamers. Especially on fark. One of the reasons i like this community is because its members seem to be a little more open minded and intelligent then other online communities. Its a shame when people go after " nerds " for enjoying online games and such. Id rather sink hours and hours into an online game then drop everything im doing every sunday to watch " THE game" I mean what real sense of accomplishment do you get from that? Atleast playing a game and creating a charactor is thought provoking and requires some sort of interaction/activity. Sitting on your ass and ranting about the Ref or lebron james or donovan Mnnab comes off to me as FAR more of a waste of time. But i wont go on sports posts or pages and try to prove the size of my dick by chewing out sports fans.

2.) ( totally unrelated to #1 ) I would really love to see a game where character power is based on players skills. Not just the time they sank into their wizard. Example:

If you have a warrior type character- in order to fight well you should master rapid key speed. If someone attacks you with a certain move a signifying letter should appear on the screen in front of you. Lets say a basic chop with a sword would be the letter " A " if you can press the letter "A" on your keyboard fast enough you block his attack. This goes on a couple times. Then its your chance. This goes back and forth. It would make combat not only interesting to play- but to watch as well. ( imagine two characters trading blows and blocking at faster and faster speeds until one trips up! )
Also if your a Magic user you should have to solve some sort of mental puzzles to unlock skills ( see the alchemy game link on fark's main page. ) the more of these puzzles u solve the harder they get- the harder they get the better spells you unlock.

These skill based systems would allow people with talent to become powerful- not people with too much time.

annyyywaayy sorry for the long post/rant
 
2003-12-11 09:12:23 AM  
ForceMcCocken

Great post. 100% correct.

/former MMORPGer, now off the treadmill
 
2003-12-11 09:13:38 AM  
They already made a MMORPG based on skill - Planetside. It was a really good idea too, just bad implementation.
 
2003-12-11 09:17:35 AM  
I play real games..with my wife's t_ts!
 
2003-12-11 09:19:02 AM  
CapnKirk:
nope. those are symptoms, not the disease.
the core problem with pvp is the levelling and loot systems. The idea that two equal characters will have their fight decided by their gear (and not their player), and that a level 10 character can kill a virtually limitless number of level 1 characters, dozens at a time.

people 'grief' because the risk/reward is skewed in favor of the killer. he gets to pick the terms, the location, and the difference in level between you and he (he can watch you fight, and judge based on your performance). And then, since they always rely on their level primarily to win the fight, even if you kill them, they don't lose anything but some standard equipment.

you on the other hand are likely travelling with some of your best gear, and even if you bring friends, you'll probably all die because he's that much higher of a 'level'.

Worst case for the killer, he loses standard gear. Likely case, he gets your best gear which is worth much more for much less effort than any pve encounter for his level.

exploits apply to any system, even to allowing people to kill one another in games that don't allow pvp - so they can't be considered a weakness inherent in pvp itself. And if the fight was at all more balanced or more even balanced in terms of risk and reward between killer and victim, many of those exploits just wouldn't matter.
 
2003-12-11 09:22:00 AM  
Real life is all about making money and paying bills.

How incredibly sad.
 
2003-12-11 09:29:42 AM  
Bleeckerx:

The reason player-skill isn't used by massmogs, is because it is anethema to the hardcore achiever group. They want to be able to use their achievement to demonstrate that they are better than someone else. If a player can appear tomorrow, and be better than their month-old character in a week - they get their 'achievement' pulled out from under them.

This is why nearly all class are regarded as 'nerfs' and never justified fixes in the quest for a fair game.

Achievers don't care about the balance of power, they think its fine to get as powerful as possible with the parameters given. What they don't want is to have the rules changed -- because the -result- of their having a character at that 'level' of power is more important to them than the process of getting them there was.

I find it ironic that the article linked discusses casual gamers as if they were hardcore achievers. suggesting that those with an hour a day to play are the reason instant gratification and care-bear design decisions get made.

they seem to be completely missing the point that nearly all players with 1 hour a night to play simply don't play massmogs. And those that do are just as obsessively dedicated as anyone else playing a massmog, and desperately feel the need to 'achieve' the same amount in their compressed time available.

It's a symptom of the hardcore achiever mentality - not the laziness of people.
 
2003-12-11 09:32:25 AM  
I agree, Bleeckerx and ForceMcCocken (that's a farking hilarious nick, incidentally, I still titter at it every time I see you post, but then, I'm childish ;) ).

I'm contemplating going into game design, but it's such a farking headache (almost as much as game administration) that I'm not sure it's worth it. It's more fun to be an alpha/beta tester for other people's games and offer suggestions rather than build your own game from scratch.
 
2003-12-11 09:33:57 AM  
*zips up +90% resistance thermal armor*

I'm playing Eve Online. It threw the level treadmill out the window and uses a skill based system that trains in real time whether you're logged in or not.

As far as Pvp, there's nothing like having your shiny new starship shot out from under you by players blockading a jump gate or fleet actions involving 20-30 players with lasers and missles everywhere.

Unfortunately Eve hamstrung itself by going retail with buggy net code (now fixed) and a publisher that didn't spend dime one on advertising.
 
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