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(Slate)   Let's talk about who really buys the AR-15   (slate.com) divider line 1346
    More: Interesting, semi-automatic rifle, semiautomatic pistols, federal assault weapons ban, Freedom Group, target shooting, Ayn Rand, car fire, long guns  
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34431 clicks; posted to Main » on 03 Jan 2013 at 12:11 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-03 12:26:58 PM  

scottydoesntknow: But the AR-15 is not ideal for the hunting and home-defense uses that the NRA's Keene cited today. Though it can be used for hunting, the AR-15 isn't really a hunting rifle. Its standard .223 caliber ammunition doesn't offer much stopping power for anything other than small game. Hunters themselves find the rifle controversial, with some arguing AR-15-style rifles empower sloppy, "spray and pray" hunters to waste ammunition.

While I do agree that it is not very well suited for hunting standard game, I did watch one tear though almost a dozen hogs in around 2 minutes. We've got a huge hog problem at our deer lease and one of the guys on the lease brought his son's AR-15 to see if he could pop a couple. My uncle and I are sitting around the fire pit when we heard 1 shot. Then about 5 minutes later we heard about 20 shots in a row. The guy with the AR radios us and tells us to come to his blind. He's got around 10 hogs on the ground, all dead. Said the first shot actually got 3 of them (they lined up perfectly), then about 5 minutes later a whole drove of them come to his blind and he just opened up on them.

Yea it's an anecdotal CSB, but I have seen their uses beyond just murder machines.


Same here. Works well for coyotes, too.
 
2013-01-03 12:27:28 PM  
If isn't really about disarming Americans, but about restricting access to military-grade weapons, then for every assault rifle the government 'confiscates', let the government supply either a hunting rifle or shotgun (sporting or home defense - owner's choice).
 
2013-01-03 12:27:28 PM  
The only person I've ever even heard mention the AR-15 is dead.

/His lyrics are blueprints to moneymakin'
 
2013-01-03 12:27:31 PM  

scottydoesntknow: But the AR-15 is not ideal for the hunting and home-defense uses that the NRA's Keene cited today. Though it can be used for hunting, the AR-15 isn't really a hunting rifle. Its standard .223 caliber ammunition doesn't offer much stopping power for anything other than small game. Hunters themselves find the rifle controversial, with some arguing AR-15-style rifles empower sloppy, "spray and pray" hunters to waste ammunition.

While I do agree that it is not very well suited for hunting standard game, I did watch one tear though almost a dozen hogs in around 2 minutes. We've got a huge hog problem at our deer lease and one of the guys on the lease brought his son's AR-15 to see if he could pop a couple. My uncle and I are sitting around the fire pit when we heard 1 shot. Then about 5 minutes later we heard about 20 shots in a row. The guy with the AR radios us and tells us to come to his blind. He's got around 10 hogs on the ground, all dead. Said the first shot actually got 3 of them (they lined up perfectly), then about 5 minutes later a whole drove of them come to his blind and he just opened up on them.

Yea it's an anecdotal CSB, but I have seen their uses beyond just murder machines.


Now I want one. farking hogs need to die.
 
2013-01-03 12:27:35 PM  

Delectatio Morosa: I think we should start banning everything we think other people "don't need." Who wants to go first?


.
Smartphones, those things make people walk in front of moving trains.
 
2013-01-03 12:27:58 PM  

Billy Bathsalt: I don't have any guns, but I think ending the War on Drug Users would easily prevent half our murders.


What kind of american are you?

Guns = good. Drugs = bad. Jeebus = good. Libs = bad.

That's all you need to know.
 
2013-01-03 12:28:05 PM  

kqc7011: Got this with a simple search.
The following is a list of some of the calibers that the AR-15 can use,

Without bolt modification
.17 Remington
.17/223
.20 Tactical

(ETC.)

This list is in no way complete.

Story seems to be done by someone who has no clue but a agenda.


You may want to RTFA before hypocritically accusing the author of failing to know what he's talking about. The entire point is that while the AR-15 is versatile, making arguments similar to the one you're making is disingenuous at best. Way to miss the point (understandable as you didn't actually read it).
 
2013-01-03 12:28:08 PM  

Teknowaffle: Fat white men who were rejected from the military?


...and have finally outgrown nunchucks.
 
2013-01-03 12:28:19 PM  

TheOther: If isn't really about disarming Americans, but about restricting access to military-grade weapons, then for every assault rifle the government 'confiscates', let the government supply either a hunting rifle or shotgun (sporting or home defense - owner's choice).


a payment of fair market value would be just as fine.
 
2013-01-03 12:28:20 PM  
Who cares who buys them and why? They shouldn't be available to the general public. If a shooting range wants to rent one out to you to use on the premises that would be fine, and the ONLY situation where I can see them being available to use.
 
2013-01-03 12:28:26 PM  
I'm sure I could do some serious damage with my 300 ultramag, but no one seems interested in taking this away from me.

(Not mine, but similar in nature)

i205.photobucket.com

Guess it's not 'military looking enough'.
 
2013-01-03 12:28:26 PM  
I always figured the AR-15 was for people that wanted to put holes in paper and people. Lately it's more about people because we know the fascists are coming.
 
2013-01-03 12:28:43 PM  
.223 rounds kill deer just fine...with one shot.
 
2013-01-03 12:28:45 PM  

Wolf_Blitzer: I enjoy shooting too, and have fired my friend's AR-15 a couple times, but do people honestly believe our entertainment justifies twenty dead six-year-olds?


I dunno about you, but I personally don't think I got any entertainment out of the deaths of twenty 6 year olds. Okay, maybe I got some entertainment out of the derp in the threads following the incident from folks like you.
 
2013-01-03 12:28:52 PM  

TheOther: If isn't really about disarming Americans, but about restricting access to military-grade weapons, then for every assault rifle the government 'confiscates', let the government supply either a hunting rifle or shotgun (sporting or home defense - owner's choice).


Civilian-marketed AR-15 rifles are not "military-grade". Any claim that they are is a lie.
 
2013-01-03 12:29:17 PM  
I've been saying this since the beginning. These weapons are not made the way they are for no reason - someone designed them this way for a reason. They are different than hunting rifles, pistols, shotguns, etc, because they were designed that way.

The banning argument totally removed  - stop lying and pretending that there are not military style rifles making their rounds, and they are not "just the same as any other rifles." I've fired a few kinds. The're different. I was there.
 
2013-01-03 12:29:17 PM  

Delectatio Morosa: I think we should start banning everything we think other people "don't need." Who wants to go first?


If anything needs to banned, it's crazy people.  Let's start with Congress.
 
2013-01-03 12:30:05 PM  

jackiepaper: TheOther: If isn't really about disarming Americans, but about restricting access to military-grade weapons, then for every assault rifle the government 'confiscates', let the government supply either a hunting rifle or shotgun (sporting or home defense - owner's choice).

a payment of fair market value would be just as fine.


I will also demand payment for my additional magazines and for my .22LR bolt replacement that would become useless under such a confiscation.
 
2013-01-03 12:30:11 PM  
The US Gubmint should just issue stock AR-15's to every citizen. With all the mods, and individual setups that can be had for that weapon, we'd fix our economy in no time at all.
 
2013-01-03 12:30:25 PM  

TwowheelinTim: Keene ridiculed the notion that AR-15-style rifles ought to be banned just because "a half dozen [AR-15s] out of more than three million have been misused after illegally falling into the hands of crazed killers." And, sure. But the AR-15 is very good at one thing: engaging the enemy at a rapid rate of fire. When someone like Adam Lanza uses it to take out 26 people in a matter of minutes, he's committing a crime, but he isn't misusing the rifle. That's exactly what it was engineered to do.

The bottom line (literally)

/responsible gun owner


Very few guns (possibly some very high-end performance target-shooting specialty guns) WEREN'T engineered to kill as many as possible as quickly as possible.  Firearms evolution is entirely about maximizing lethality.  It might be that certain trade-offs were made, like rate of fire vs accuracy, or round weight vs penetration, or portability vs maintainability... but ultimately, from the flintlock to the Lee-Enfield to the submachine gun to the assault rifle, it was an evolution of trying to kill.

So, really, the point that the AR is somehow special in this is really rather misleading.  It's just the most modern example of it.
 
2013-01-03 12:30:27 PM  

Kit Fister: scottydoesntknow: But the AR-15 is not ideal for the hunting and home-defense uses that the NRA's Keene cited today. Though it can be used for hunting, the AR-15 isn't really a hunting rifle. Its standard .223 caliber ammunition doesn't offer much stopping power for anything other than small game. Hunters themselves find the rifle controversial, with some arguing AR-15-style rifles empower sloppy, "spray and pray" hunters to waste ammunition.

While I do agree that it is not very well suited for hunting standard game, I did watch one tear though almost a dozen hogs in around 2 minutes. We've got a huge hog problem at our deer lease and one of the guys on the lease brought his son's AR-15 to see if he could pop a couple. My uncle and I are sitting around the fire pit when we heard 1 shot. Then about 5 minutes later we heard about 20 shots in a row. The guy with the AR radios us and tells us to come to his blind. He's got around 10 hogs on the ground, all dead. Said the first shot actually got 3 of them (they lined up perfectly), then about 5 minutes later a whole drove of them come to his blind and he just opened up on them.

Yea it's an anecdotal CSB, but I have seen their uses beyond just murder machines.

Same here. Works well for coyotes, too.


Apparently works well for children, too. Keep on grasping.
 
2013-01-03 12:30:27 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: cr7pilot: CPT Ethanolic: cr7pilot: I own an AR-15. I'm not a survivalist or a gun nut or a hunter. I'm a guy who enjoys going out in the desert and shooting assorted targets for fun. It's really that simple. If you like shooting as a sport, the AR-15 is a lot of fun to shoot. I understand that some people don't like shooting as a sport and think "why do you need that kind of gun" but that's just because it's not their thing. AR-15 owners don't buy AR-15s because they have some inherent desire to have more "killing power."

 This is me as well.  I own some hand guns (one .45 and two 9mms) for "home defense" but I also just enjoy shooting.  I've been considering getting an AR15 for a while now.  Used to own an AK-47 and, although the ammo is damned expensive, they're fun to shoot.

Me too. I've got a .380 and a 9mm, but the AR-15 is fun to shoot on a long range. It's also handy for disposing of those leftover Halloween pumpkins...

It's good to see people admit that this hoopla is really about their 2nd Amendment right to have "fun."


Actually, the unalienable right to "fun" - aka "Pursuit of Happiness" - goes back even further, to the Preamble of the Declaration of Independence.
 
2013-01-03 12:30:41 PM  

gregory311: I'm sure I could do some serious damage with my 300 ultramag, but no one seems interested in taking this away from me.


Duh, it's not black. It's a proven fact that a black rifle is much, much more powerful than a green one. It's like the red "R" stickers on ricers. That alone adds about 250 horsepower. Paint it black and maybe add some rails and some sort of laser. You'll see.
 
2013-01-03 12:30:51 PM  

gregory311: I'm sure I could do some serious damage with my 300 ultramag, but no one seems interested in taking this away from me.

(Not mine, but similar in nature)

[i205.photobucket.com image 598x307]

Guess it's not 'military looking enough'.


Don't be ridiculous. Of course you can pick out any weapon you like and say "I can still kill with it." That's not a point.
 
2013-01-03 12:31:04 PM  

The_Sponge: bluefoxicy: or how bad-ass you'd look with a pump-action shotgun (name's Ash. Housewares.)

Allow me to be a movie/gun nerd for a moment:

Ash didn't have a pump-action...he had a double barrel.  In "Army of Darkness", he claims it is a Remington, but it's actually a Stoeger Coach Gun.

/Own one.


Shop smart. Shop..... S-Mart.
 
2013-01-03 12:31:11 PM  
Why is it that the same people who love to point out the first phrase of the 2nd amendment, which concerns arms' potential to be used against people, are the same people who say that if a gun is suited to anything more than hunting, it's too much gun?
 
2013-01-03 12:31:15 PM  

Fissile: Having been a NRA member.....I got better....and having been a hunter since I was a teen, I know exactly the type of man who wants an AR-15: Rambo wannabe.


Aaaaand that's why I am not an NRA member. Too many 'tards like you infest that organization.

/2nd Amendment isn't about duck hunting, dork.
 
2013-01-03 12:31:20 PM  
Why do the mods constantly approve gun articles from Slate? It's like constantly approving bridge construction plans written by special olympics bronze medal winners. What's the point?
 
2013-01-03 12:31:23 PM  

Cymbal: Who cares who buys them and why? They shouldn't be available to the general public. If a shooting range wants to rent one out to you to use on the premises that would be fine, and the ONLY situation where I can see them being available to use.


I agree, let's restrict and ban all laptops from public use. And cell phones, they're dangerous, cause accidents, and shouldn't be available to the general public.

/Has a full-auto, legally registered M60 Machine gun. Belt-fed full-auto, baby. hellatiously expensive, but I'm retiring on what I can sell it for.
 
2013-01-03 12:31:27 PM  

treesloth: gregory311: I'm sure I could do some serious damage with my 300 ultramag, but no one seems interested in taking this away from me.

Duh, it's not black. It's a proven fact that a black rifle is much, much more powerful than a green one. It's like the red "R" stickers on ricers. That alone adds about 250 horsepower. Paint it black and maybe add some rails and some sort of laser. You'll see.


Nobody wants to ban black guns, stop making shiat up.
 
2013-01-03 12:31:44 PM  
Surprisingly well thought out piece.  I am a gun advocate, but assault rifles serve only a few real purposes.  Sport shooting and Survivalist Wet Dreams.

But ya know.  Paranoid survivalists aren't as crazy as they seem.  Soldiers coming back from war torn countries know exactly how bad things can get, and how fast.  And riots happen everywhere.

That being said.  The guns are wicked stupid.  I've thought about it a lot.  A person breaks into my house, use a shotgun, a handgun or a bat.  An AR-15 will kill your neighbor or the kid playing outside.  And it's not worth it.

/Oh, but there is the persuation factor I guess.  Someone points an AR-15 at your head and says "move along" you might just loot the house next door.
 
2013-01-03 12:32:16 PM  

Kit Fister: Wolf_Blitzer: I enjoy shooting too, and have fired my friend's AR-15 a couple times, but do people honestly believe our entertainment justifies twenty dead six-year-olds?

I dunno about you, but I personally don't think I got any entertainment out of the deaths of twenty 6 year olds. Okay, maybe I got some entertainment out of the derp in the threads following the incident from folks like you.


.
Oh puhlease. Many here have a warm tingly feeling running up their leg at that thought of taking away basic human rights from their fellow Americans. In this case the human right of self defense.
 
2013-01-03 12:32:32 PM  
U

Dimensio: Civilian-marketed AR-15 rifles are not "military-grade". Any claim that they are is a lie.


I used the M-16 in the military.
It's a piece of shait. (as far as a killing machine goes)
/Much prefer the M-60 or AK.
 
2013-01-03 12:32:32 PM  

david_gaithersburg: Where exactly in the 2nd Amendment does it mention hunting?


It doesn't.  And it's probably not contained within the intent of the second at all.  But perhaps it can be found in the same place the word "privacy" can - the 9th amendment.
 
2013-01-03 12:32:34 PM  

TheOther: then for every assault rifle the government 'confiscates', let the government supply either a hunting rifle or shotgun (sporting or home defense - owner's choice).


How about no?
 
2013-01-03 12:32:44 PM  

seniorgato: Surprisingly well thought out piece.  I am a gun advocate, but assault rifles serve only a few real purposes.  Sport shooting and Survivalist Wet Dreams.


Assault rifles are already federally restricted and are not commonly available.
 
2013-01-03 12:32:54 PM  

FlashHarry: is the .223/.556 the same NATO round that the current western militaries use? it's essentially a high-powered .22, right?


Gosh, it's getting into meme territory. It's .223 caliber in the old 'inches of diameter' system. 5.56mm in the new metric system. NOT .556mm, though I think the swiss produced a gun firing something about that size. The gun is about the size of a matchbook, and was designed/assembled by watch makers.

Of course, you still have issues with rounding, advertising, etc... Thus .38/.357 being the same diameter.

And yes, the 'high powered' round used by western militaries is illegal to hunt with in many states against human sized game such as deer, and even in areas where it's legal most don't due to it being considered inhumane.

To address some comments from the article -
"Its standard .223 caliber ammunition doesn't offer much stopping power for anything other than small game." - There's still plenty of 'small game' out there to hunt with it, and the AR-15 action has been chambered in many calibers up to and including .50BMG. 6.5mm Grendel and 6.8 SPC are both better hunting calibers that only needs swapping the upper to chamber the rifle for it. You're looking at ~$700 for the upper, at which point swapping is like 30 seconds.

"AR-15-style rifles empower sloppy, "spray and pray" hunters to waste ammunition." - Really. You've always had types like this, plus part of the problem many areas are having is that they don't have ENOUGH hunters to keep wild game populations under control. Besides, a miss is a miss and said hunter is going to go home without any game if he's just 'spray and pray' firing, and the semi-auto simply means he's tossing even more money downrange. Plus, I'd like to know what hunters are going after big game with a 'standard' AR-15. Most going with such a package are going to be going with one of the said custom uppers that fire a much heavier bullet. Which means each trigger pull is expensive again, AND the rifle still ends up costing around 5 times as much as a traditional bolt action.

"The AR-15 is a long gun, and can be tough to maneuver in tight quarters." - Blame NFA regulations against short guns, but the AR-15 doesn't have to be that long even without being classified as a 'short barreled rifle'.

The article makes some good points - it's a fun gun to fire, relatively cheap on ammo and the shoulder, and is extremely reliable and customizable. Why wouldn't people like it?
 
2013-01-03 12:33:17 PM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: Kit Fister: scottydoesntknow: But the AR-15 is not ideal for the hunting and home-defense uses that the NRA's Keene cited today. Though it can be used for hunting, the AR-15 isn't really a hunting rifle. Its standard .223 caliber ammunition doesn't offer much stopping power for anything other than small game. Hunters themselves find the rifle controversial, with some arguing AR-15-style rifles empower sloppy, "spray and pray" hunters to waste ammunition.

While I do agree that it is not very well suited for hunting standard game, I did watch one tear though almost a dozen hogs in around 2 minutes. We've got a huge hog problem at our deer lease and one of the guys on the lease brought his son's AR-15 to see if he could pop a couple. My uncle and I are sitting around the fire pit when we heard 1 shot. Then about 5 minutes later we heard about 20 shots in a row. The guy with the AR radios us and tells us to come to his blind. He's got around 10 hogs on the ground, all dead. Said the first shot actually got 3 of them (they lined up perfectly), then about 5 minutes later a whole drove of them come to his blind and he just opened up on them.

Yea it's an anecdotal CSB, but I have seen their uses beyond just murder machines.

Same here. Works well for coyotes, too.

Apparently works well for children, too. Keep on grasping.


Yeah, my pickup truck works well for children, too. Plow into a group and back up a few times, takes out just as many, with less effort. Just because a person can USE it for bad things, doesn't mean that it is FOR bad things.
 
2013-01-03 12:33:21 PM  
Here is an excellent article explaining why 2A ain't about "Bambi and burglars" Link
 
2013-01-03 12:33:30 PM  

Kraftwerk Orange: BarkingUnicorn: cr7pilot: CPT Ethanolic: cr7pilot: I own an AR-15. I'm not a survivalist or a gun nut or a hunter. I'm a guy who enjoys going out in the desert and shooting assorted targets for fun. It's really that simple. If you like shooting as a sport, the AR-15 is a lot of fun to shoot. I understand that some people don't like shooting as a sport and think "why do you need that kind of gun" but that's just because it's not their thing. AR-15 owners don't buy AR-15s because they have some inherent desire to have more "killing power."

 This is me as well.  I own some hand guns (one .45 and two 9mms) for "home defense" but I also just enjoy shooting.  I've been considering getting an AR15 for a while now.  Used to own an AK-47 and, although the ammo is damned expensive, they're fun to shoot.

Me too. I've got a .380 and a 9mm, but the AR-15 is fun to shoot on a long range. It's also handy for disposing of those leftover Halloween pumpkins...

It's good to see people admit that this hoopla is really about their 2nd Amendment right to have "fun."

Actually, the unalienable right to "fun" - aka "Pursuit of Happiness" - goes back even further, to the Preamble of the Declaration of Independence.


Wow. You could use that argument to eliminate literally every law on the books.
 
2013-01-03 12:33:35 PM  
dermatology-s10.cdlib.org
 
2013-01-03 12:33:44 PM  

Dimensio: jackiepaper: TheOther: If isn't really about disarming Americans, but about restricting access to military-grade weapons, then for every assault rifle the government 'confiscates', let the government supply either a hunting rifle or shotgun (sporting or home defense - owner's choice).

a payment of fair market value would be just as fine.

I will also demand payment for my additional magazines and for my .22LR bolt replacement that would become useless under such a confiscation.


See! That's an economy boosting injection!
 
2013-01-03 12:33:56 PM  
the AR-15 Is Useful for Hunting and Home Defense. Not Exactly.

BS. The kid on (I think it's called) Yukon Men, uses an AR to hunt. He got a caribou and a bear with it on the few episodes I've seen.
 
2013-01-03 12:33:58 PM  
Hey, while we're at it, let's ban planes since some jackholes killed 3000 people with a few of them a decade ago. And don't give me that "But we need them!" bullshiat, because we sure as hell didn't need them a century ago when they didn't exist.

/same solution to both problems: Ban jackholes.
 
2013-01-03 12:34:38 PM  
When you shoot it, it'll overpenetrate-sending bullets through the walls of your house and possibly into the walls of your neighbor's house-unless you purchase the sort of ammunition that fragments on impact. (This is true for other guns, as well, but, again, the thing with the AR-15 is that it lets you fire more rounds faster.)

Funny how they slip that in there... If you are using fragmenting rounds, they either fragment or they don't, firing them faster doesn't suddenly stop them from working. It's kind of subtle how they slip that bullshiat in there...
 
2013-01-03 12:34:42 PM  

LasersHurt: Nobody wants to ban black guns, stop making shiat up.


Did you just hear a whistling sound over your head?
 
2013-01-03 12:34:50 PM  

abhorrent1: the AR-15 Is Useful for Hunting and Home Defense. Not Exactly.

BS. The kid on (I think it's called) Yukon Men, uses an AR to hunt. He got a caribou and a bear with it on the few episodes I've seen.


You can drive across the country in a rusted out Yugo, if you want, but it doesn't mean it's the right tool for the job.
 
2013-01-03 12:34:50 PM  

The_Sponge: TheOther: then for every assault rifle the government 'confiscates', let the government supply either a hunting rifle or shotgun (sporting or home defense - owner's choice).

How about no?


Why not?
 
2013-01-03 12:34:52 PM  
If they made a musket look like a AR-15, the same group of people would want to ban it.
 
2013-01-03 12:35:03 PM  

Firethorn: Of course, you still have issues with rounding, advertising, etc... Thus .38/.357 being the same diameter.


.38/.357 IIRC is diameter to the outside/inside of the rifling, respectively.
 
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