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(LA Times)   Quick, somebody wake up Thatcher   (latimes.com) divider line 24
    More: Followup, Falkland Islands, Argentine Republic, Britain, Falklands War, UN resolution, Kirchners, British Forces, Self-Government  
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5719 clicks; posted to Main » on 03 Jan 2013 at 9:36 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2013-01-03 10:02:12 AM  
2 votes:

EngineerAU: Britain took over the islands


Britain <B>settled</B> the Falklands over 50 years before the country of Argentina ever existed.
2013-01-03 05:59:40 PM  
1 votes:

stitchface: Fair points, but how much do regular Argentinians really care about the islands? Enough to put up with buildings randomly exploding downtown? Could go either way I suppose, uniting people against their own govt, or the UK


For the most part, I doubt they really care much at all. She's just stirring this up to create a distraction for her domestic problems - which is exactly why Galtieri did it. I suspect (hope) she's a bit saner and won't do more than saber-rattle.

As far as the impact of random buildings exploding goes, history seems to indicate that the result is really counter intuitive. In no way did the carpet bombings of WWII break the will of civilian populations. Likewise, the NATO actions in the Balkans didn't cause a civilian uproar.
2013-01-03 01:53:51 PM  
1 votes:

dittybopper: Dorf11: dittybopper: /Don't get your history from rock musicians.

Weird. I always interpreted the lyrics as taking a British fleet halfway round the world to project sovereignty (not sinking the Belgrano). Kinda works both ways, I guess.

I was commenting on the accuracy of the part that I have bolded below:

And Maggie, over lunch one day, took a cruiser with all hands, apparently to make them give it back.

The phrase "with all hands" in this context means that no one survived the sinking, which I pointed out wasn't true. That's why I said "don't get your history from rock stars".

Plus, recent signals intelligence revelations pretty much square perfectly with the Belgrano being a proper military target, and part of an integrated threat to the British task force. Not that it should matter: Did the British shy away from sinking U-boats that were heading back to their pens in WWII? Of course not.


Years later it was revealed that Belgrano had been ordered to rendezvous with other Argentinian forces inside the exclusion zone and attack British forces. Thatcher knew this before ordering the sinking but didn't reveal it to keep British codebreaking a secret.

Also the exclusion zone was meaningless, the UK had formal warned Argentina it would attack in or out of that zone. From several accounts the senior Argentinian nave officers were unhappy with the sinking, obviously, but never thought it illegal or a war crime. They'd have done the same to any British ship they found in the area.
2013-01-03 12:46:38 PM  
1 votes:
It's largely a moot point, as my understanding is that the Argentine government is talking about the Falklands at least partially to distract from its own dismal record.
2013-01-03 11:37:37 AM  
1 votes:

Satanic_Hamster: That means they have to sneak past the Brits radar, take out the planes on the ground, destroy or take the air port, and take out the garrison, which is larger and better equipped then it was in the 80's. England has the ability to fly planes straight to the islands now (due to new air bases elsewhere and in-flight refueling). They have VERY modern fighters and missiles. On top of that, Argentina's armed forces haven't changed greatly since the 80's. Their planes have had a few modernization programs but only to a few models. Their missile inventories are crap ...


Not to mention that Britain's personnel is significantly better and more experienced. But I agree that Argentina would win if it were willing to sacrifice a lot of personnel.

However, this whole thing is just another Kirchner-dangled shiny metal object to distract the people from the abject failure of her economic policies. Having a bunch of the people die in a stupid war kind of defeats her purpose.
2013-01-03 11:13:28 AM  
1 votes:

Flakeloaf: 1. Invade islands.
2. Fill them with your own people.
3. Have the people vote democratically on which country they want to belong to.


The islands were uninhabited except by a small military garrison when the British "invaded" them, and their ownership had never been settled either by treaty or war. The first permanent settlers of the islands were British, in 1840. The islands are located nearly 300 miles from Argentina, well outside their 200-mile exclusive economic zone. Argentina's claim is worse than tenuous.
2013-01-03 10:53:10 AM  
1 votes:

Dorf11: dittybopper: /Don't get your history from rock musicians.

Weird. I always interpreted the lyrics as taking a British fleet halfway round the world to project sovereignty (not sinking the Belgrano). Kinda works both ways, I guess.


I was commenting on the accuracy of the part that I have bolded below:

And Maggie, over lunch one day, took a cruiser with all hands, apparently to make them give it back.

The phrase "with all hands" in this context means that no one survived the sinking, which I pointed out wasn't true. That's why I said "don't get your history from rock stars".

Plus, recent signals intelligence revelations pretty much square perfectly with the Belgrano being a proper military target, and part of an integrated threat to the British task force. Not that it should matter: Did the British shy away from sinking U-boats that were heading back to their pens in WWII? Of course not.
2013-01-03 10:52:14 AM  
1 votes:
Why the fark does anybody care about this godforsaken bunch of rocks in the middle of nowhere, anyways?
2013-01-03 10:50:54 AM  
1 votes:
Borges said it best:

"Two bald men fighting over a comb."
2013-01-03 10:34:57 AM  
1 votes:

Satanic_Hamster: FLMountainMan: Hmmm.....are Argentinians all "the local population" in Argentina? So funny.

Similarly, I continue to be amazed at the total pass that white hispanics get on racism, colonialism, and slavery. It's really brilliant
1. Find new land in the Americas
2. Invade, set up shop and import slaves or exploit the few natives who didn't die from disease or bloodshed
3. Profit for centuries off of racism, segregation, and exploitation of darker people.
4. Use the wealth acquired thereby to move to America.
5. Take advantage of racial preferences designed to remedy the exact injustices you profited off of.
6. Scream bloody murder whenever those preferences are threatened.
7. Profit.

/White hispanic, but from Chile, so the screed above doesn't apply to me.

Worked with a guy who was a red haired blue eyed "pure" ruling class noble from Guatemala. At least he was until the "peasants" overthrew the government. Neat guy, really neat life story, really racist towards some ethnic groups. Was interesting to hear his perspective on "other" Hispanics. He had some funny rants on how much he hated Americans who considered him to be just another Hispanic due to his name / country of origin.


i'm friends with a guy who is of german descent, but his family is "from" argentina. Apparently there was a point at which his family needed to leave germany, towards the end of a war.
2013-01-03 10:34:21 AM  
1 votes:
I see the Falklands going to Argentina about the same time Gibraltar is given back to Spain....

/ not anytime soon
2013-01-03 10:28:29 AM  
1 votes:

Biness: FLMountainMan: EngineerAU: . This is obviously a political distraction meant to take some heat off of the Argentine president but that doesn't change the fact that when Britain took over the islands, they removed the local population and stocked it full of their own people.

Hmmm.....are Argentinians all "the local population" in Argentina? So funny.

Similarly, I continue to be amazed at the total pass that white hispanics get on racism, colonialism, and slavery. It's really brilliant
1. Find new land in the Americas
2. Invade, set up shop and import slaves or exploit the few natives who didn't die from disease or bloodshed
3. Profit for centuries off of racism, segregation, and exploitation of darker people.
4. Use the wealth acquired thereby to move to America.
5. Take advantage of racial preferences designed to remedy the exact injustices you profited off of.
6. Scream bloody murder whenever those preferences are threatened.
7. Profit.

/White hispanic, but from Chile, so the screed above doesn't apply to me.

damn. never thought of it that way. thats kind of incredible.

Brazil imported WAY more slaves than the USA


French Haiti was pretty barbaric too, from what I understand. Show up, turn entire country into a slave colony, export everything of value, charge them some multiple of their GDP for their "freedom" and then toss a few pennies in their hat when someone shows a pity porn movie of the area.
2013-01-03 10:27:58 AM  
1 votes:

Biness: FLMountainMan: EngineerAU: . This is obviously a political distraction meant to take some heat off of the Argentine president but that doesn't change the fact that when Britain took over the islands, they removed the local population and stocked it full of their own people.

Hmmm.....are Argentinians all "the local population" in Argentina? So funny.

Similarly, I continue to be amazed at the total pass that white hispanics get on racism, colonialism, and slavery. It's really brilliant
1. Find new land in the Americas
2. Invade, set up shop and import slaves or exploit the few natives who didn't die from disease or bloodshed
3. Profit for centuries off of racism, segregation, and exploitation of darker people.
4. Use the wealth acquired thereby to move to America.
5. Take advantage of racial preferences designed to remedy the exact injustices you profited off of.
6. Scream bloody murder whenever those preferences are threatened.
7. Profit.

/White hispanic, but from Chile, so the screed above doesn't apply to me.

damn. never thought of it that way. thats kind of incredible.

Brazil imported WAY more slaves than the USA


Don't get me wrong, I'm absolutely not arguing that it makes the USA did any more moral or righteous. I just remember my dad's disbelief at the preferences and set-asides I could have claimed in this country, despite being blue-eyed and from a middle-class family. Also, most Americans don't realize that Affirmative Action of some sort happens in most first or second-world countries you can think of.
2013-01-03 10:22:50 AM  
1 votes:

EngineerAU: The islanders are mostly people from Britain and the descendants of those from Britain. Hardly seems fair.to stuff the place full of one nation's people and then say it's up to them to decide. This is obviously a political distraction meant to take some heat off of the Argentine president but that doesn't change the fact that when Britain took over the islands, they removed the local population and stocked it full of their own people.


Except none of that really ever happened.
2013-01-03 10:20:55 AM  
1 votes:

EngineerAU: . This is obviously a political distraction meant to take some heat off of the Argentine president but that doesn't change the fact that when Britain took over the islands, they removed the local population and stocked it full of their own people.


Hmmm.....are Argentinians all "the local population" in Argentina? So funny.

Similarly, I continue to be amazed at the total pass that white hispanics get on racism, colonialism, and slavery. It's really brilliant
1. Find new land in the Americas
2. Invade, set up shop and import slaves or exploit the few natives who didn't die from disease or bloodshed
3. Profit for centuries off of racism, segregation, and exploitation of darker people.
4. Use the wealth acquired thereby to move to America.
5. Take advantage of racial preferences designed to remedy the exact injustices you profited off of.
6. Scream bloody murder whenever those preferences are threatened.
7. Profit.

/White hispanic, but from Chile, so the screed above doesn't apply to me.
2013-01-03 10:15:00 AM  
1 votes:

Gunther: EngineerAU: that doesn't change the fact that when Britain took over the islands, they removed the local population and stocked it full of their own people.

From wiki:

When the Clio arrived, there were 33 genuine resident civilian settlers. Captain Onslow gave them a free choice of staying or leaving; he applied no pressure on them to leave and indeed encouraged some to stay. Only four of them chose to leave

I note that at this point Argentina had settlers on the islands for 4 years (1829-1833). while England had settlers as far back as 1760 (though they lost the islands to the Spanish, who lost them to Argentina), and have continuously settled the islands for the past 180 years.


This.
2013-01-03 10:10:46 AM  
1 votes:

EngineerAU: that doesn't change the fact that when Britain took over the islands, they removed the local population and stocked it full of their own people.


From wiki:

When the Clio arrived, there were 33 genuine resident civilian settlers. Captain Onslow gave them a free choice of staying or leaving; he applied no pressure on them to leave and indeed encouraged some to stay. Only four of them chose to leave

I note that at this point Argentina had settlers on the islands for 4 years (1829-1833). while England had settlers as far back as 1760 (though they lost the islands to the Spanish, who lost them to Argentina), and have continuously settled the islands for the past 180 years.
2013-01-03 10:04:05 AM  
1 votes:
Falklands Islands has been a British colony longer then California has been American.
2013-01-03 10:02:21 AM  
1 votes:

meanmutton: EngineerAU: Norfolking Chance: It doesn't matter what Argentina wants

It doesn't matter what Britian wants.

All that matters is what the Falkland Islenders want.

The sovereignty referendum in a few months time will once and for all settle what the Falkland Islanders want.

The islanders are mostly people from Britain and the descendants of those from Britain. Hardly seems fair.to stuff the place full of one nation's people and then say it's up to them to decide. This is obviously a political distraction meant to take some heat off of the Argentine president but that doesn't change the fact that when Britain took over the islands, they removed the local population and stocked it full of their own people.

It's amazing how stunningly ignorant people can be of a topic that gets so much play on Fark.


alot of it, i think, is just knee jerk hate of the west. standard white guilt.
2013-01-03 09:57:14 AM  
1 votes:

Flakeloaf: 1. Invade islands.
2. Fill them with your own people.
3. Have the people vote democratically on which country they want to belong to.


You misspelled "settle" in item one.
2013-01-03 09:56:02 AM  
1 votes:

Flakeloaf: 1. Invade islands.
2. Fill them with your own people.
3. Have the people vote democratically on which country they want to belong to.


You might not look like such a moran if you read a little about the history of the Falklands before making stupid statements like this
2013-01-03 09:44:54 AM  
1 votes:
cdn.theatlantic.com

why u mad?
2013-01-03 09:44:05 AM  
1 votes:
Yea, try again. Stop blaming your problems on a couple of islands. you're never getting them. deal with it.
2013-01-03 09:39:28 AM  
1 votes:
1. Invade islands.
2. Fill them with your own people.
3. Have the people vote democratically on which country they want to belong to.
 
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