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(Salon)   Michigan and Virginia pass backdoor abortion restrictions. Heck, I didn't think you could even get pregnant that way   (salon.com) divider line 163
    More: Asinine, Michigan, Attorney General of Virginia, Irin Carmon, board of health, NARAL  
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1725 clicks; posted to Politics » on 03 Jan 2013 at 10:06 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-03 01:26:11 AM  
Requiring clinics to meet the requirements that outpatient surgical centers meet - since they do perform outpatient surgery does not seem restrictive, it seems like it is a safeguard for patients.
 
2013-01-03 01:48:35 AM  
+1 submitter

/that wrecked 'em
 
2013-01-03 02:02:50 AM  

feckingmorons: Requiring clinics to meet the requirements that outpatient surgical centers meet - since they do perform outpatient surgery does not seem restrictive, it seems like it is a safeguard for patients.


So then why are dentists not subject to the same restrictions?

Oh right, it's not about health safety at all, it's about punishing women.

I'm starting a list of shiat like this, to be forwarded to every woman I am on speaking terms with right when the 2014 political season starts. Enjoy your slide into irrelevancy.
 
2013-01-03 02:04:07 AM  

iq_in_binary: So then why are dentists not subject to the same restrictions?


They are if they use general anesthesia or conscious sedation.
 
2013-01-03 02:11:53 AM  

feckingmorons: iq_in_binary: So then why are dentists not subject to the same restrictions?

They are if they use general anesthesia or conscious sedation.


Vacuum Aspiration Abortions do not require anesthesia and if they do it is local.

Guess what service all of these clinics are performing?

Again, why are dentists not subject to the same rules?
 
2013-01-03 03:37:30 AM  
Yeah, my sister in Michigan has been up in arms about it to. Nit that she ever has had an abortion (that I know of anyway) but is a very liberal person and very much in the fight. She was telling me things about restrictions on broom closet sizes and amount of sinks available to patients and all sorts of randomness solely designed to make it completely impossible to operate that has nothing to do with the actual medicine.

Why my home state elected all these Right Wing nutters I'll never know.

/in other news, "nutters" is an accepted spelling according to Chrome's spell check
//go figure
 
2013-01-03 06:42:26 AM  

iq_in_binary: feckingmorons: iq_in_binary: So then why are dentists not subject to the same restrictions?

They are if they use general anesthesia or conscious sedation.

Vacuum Aspiration Abortions do not require anesthesia and if they do it is local.

Guess what service all of these clinics are performing?

Again, why are dentists not subject to the same rules?


It's also noteworthy to mention that when other states passed similar laws, those states openly admitted that this was the most effective route to end abortion.
 
2013-01-03 07:59:26 AM  

iq_in_binary: Again, why are dentists not subject to the same rules?


I get what you're saying but comparing a dental office and a abortion clinic is logical stretch.  Dentists are not medical doctors and are not licensed as such (unless they're an oral surgeon).
 
2013-01-03 08:39:12 AM  

iq_in_binary: feckingmorons: iq_in_binary: So then why are dentists not subject to the same restrictions?

They are if they use general anesthesia or conscious sedation.

Vacuum Aspiration Abortions do not require anesthesia and if they do it is local.

Guess what service all of these clinics are performing?

Again, why are dentists not subject to the same rules?


Don't confuse the weak minded.
 
2013-01-03 08:48:42 AM  

clancifer: Don't confuse the weak minded.


I'm not stating my position on the law either way.  I'm merely stating that if you're going to make an argument, make a GOOD argument.  It's a weak argument to compare dentists and medical doctors.  Different education, licensing requirements, regulations, etc.

Besides, it really misses the argument that the Republicans are making.  Their argument (which on its face sounds reasonable), is that it is not unreasonable to have certain safety requirements for a office that performs what amounts to outpatient surgery.

IMHO, a better argument would be show the legislation was unnecessary..  In other words, what are the statistics of women having abortions that have further infections or require immediate emergency medical care.  A better argument would be that the state is going to add xyz dollars of regulations for a statistically small amount of women that either suffer infections or require emergency medical care.
 
2013-01-03 09:20:09 AM  

slayer199: I get what you're saying but comparing a dental office and a abortion clinic is logical stretch. Dentists are not medical doctors and are not licensed as such (unless they're an oral surgeon).


Does performing an abortion require a doctor, or merely an RN?
 
2013-01-03 09:24:12 AM  

abb3w: slayer199: I get what you're saying but comparing a dental office and a abortion clinic is logical stretch. Dentists are not medical doctors and are not licensed as such (unless they're an oral surgeon).

Does performing an abortion require a doctor, or merely an RN?


The procedure itself does require a doctor, but anesthesia is usually covered by an RN. My RN wife snows people for outpatient surgery almost every day.
 
2013-01-03 09:25:54 AM  
The party of small government and letting the market decide is hard at work to make sure health care is denied by the government to those that want to pay for it.
 
2013-01-03 10:10:04 AM  

slayer199: is that it is not unreasonable to have certain safety requirements for a office that performs what amounts to outpatient surgery.


These "safety" requirements are always ludicrous, Kansas for example, which effectively outlawed abortion in the name of "safety requirements."  If any other doctors office was handicapped in this way, you'd be screaming about restrictions that kill businesses.  But since personal rights are being restricted, you talk about "safety."
 
2013-01-03 10:11:06 AM  

slayer199: iq_in_binary: Again, why are dentists not subject to the same rules?

I get what you're saying but comparing a dental office and a abortion clinic is logical stretch.  Dentists are not medical doctors and are not licensed as such (unless they're an oral surgeon).


Why would the fact that Dentists have lesser training and licensing requirements be an argument for them having less oversight and regulation for procedures of similar risk?
 
2013-01-03 10:11:32 AM  
"We're gonna make it tough for you ladies to get your slut-babies 'taken care of', even though we're not supposed to. Tough shiat, you shoulda thought of that before you became sluts.

Sincerely,
Governor Farkhead"
 
2013-01-03 10:15:54 AM  
All brought to you by the party of less government. They also totally respect women*

* provided said woman is barefoot, pregnant and making them a sammich then lets them go fark their mistress (who is probably a man)
 
2013-01-03 10:18:11 AM  
You stupid libs should stop harping on abortion. All you are doing is trying to whip up the frenzy among your base. Roe vs Wade is set in stone and nothing will happen to it. Stop trying to win easy points with a non-issue.
 
2013-01-03 10:18:16 AM  

GAT_00: slayer199: is that it is not unreasonable to have certain safety requirements for a office that performs what amounts to outpatient surgery.

These "safety" requirements are always ludicrous, Kansas for example, which effectively outlawed abortion in the name of "safety requirements."  If any other doctors office was handicapped in this way, you'd be screaming about restrictions that kill businesses.  But since personal wimmins rights are being restricted, you talk about "safety."


FTFY
 
2013-01-03 10:20:16 AM  
Republicans will shut the f*ck up now about all those terrible, excessive, punitive regulations they are forever complaining about. Right?
 
2013-01-03 10:25:33 AM  
Goddamnit Snyder. Every time you do something sane you follow it with something crazy. Support a bridge built by canada instead of continued monopoly by a billionaire and follow it with union busting. Deny an anti-abortion bill and follow it up with an anti-abortion bill.

I was actually thinking of voting for him next time despite hating the EMF bullshiat, but the support of the union busting and now this.. not a chance.
 
2013-01-03 10:26:35 AM  

someonelse: Republicans will shut the f*ck up now about all those terrible, excessive, punitive regulations they are forever complaining about. Right?


Nope, and also I'm sure 99% of conservatives you talk to on the street will secretly be glad there will be less abortions and not particularly mind the government overreach while at the same time paying lip service in conversations to how they really don't like this.
 
2013-01-03 10:26:55 AM  
I think she proves that theory wrong Subs...

Link
 
2013-01-03 10:29:35 AM  

bulldg4life: You stupid libs should stop harping on abortion. All you are doing is trying to whip up the frenzy among your base. Roe vs Wade is set in stone and nothing will happen to it. Stop trying to win easy points with a non-issue.


Sounds like my boss. "You know, everyone I know who is voting for Obama is only doing it for social reasons"

My reply, "maybe your side, if they are that much better on fiscal and international policy than the dems, ought to just go along with the democrats on social issues to get more votes? You know, stop hating gays, blacks, browns, women?"

Him, "No, our side is on the right side of things on those issues".

Me, "Oh, so you are voting on social issues then?"

Him, "of course not, that would be stupid"

/sighs.
 
2013-01-03 10:29:42 AM  
Treating places that perform surgeries as places that perform surgery is entirely reasonable.

On the other hand, shoveling a bunch of bullshiat regulations on to abortion places about the exact temperatures adjacent rooms can be and the like and calling it safety would hardly be out of character for certain segments of the body politic.

So, uhhh not sure where outrage. What does qualifying as an outpatient surgical center actually imply?
 
2013-01-03 10:31:33 AM  
Perhaps someone should post the names and addresses of all the women who have had an abortion on an interactive map to give the public an understanding just how big this is...
media.theweek.com
 
2013-01-03 10:32:44 AM  

GAT_00: These "safety" requirements are always ludicrous, Kansas for example, which effectively outlawed abortion in the name of "safety requirements." If any other doctors office was handicapped in this way, you'd be screaming about restrictions that kill businesses. But since personal rights are being restricted, you talk about "safety."


Philip Francis Queeg: Why would the fact that Dentists have lesser training and licensing requirements be an argument for them having less oversight and regulation for procedures of similar risk?


Apparently, neither of you read my post completely...and instead chose to make an assumption based on my comment that comparing dental offices and abortion clinics is a bad argument.  It's STILL a bad argument because the differences between a Medical Doctor (and OB/Gyn) and a Doctor of Dentistry.  Two VERY different professions with VERY different professional and legal requirements.  I did not make a personal comment for or against the law.

To answer GAT, my better argument AGAINST the law was to show that it is entirely unnecessary and government overreach by showing statistically how infrequent women suffer from post-abortion infections or require emergency medical care.  If you THEN want to compare and contrast with dentistry, THAT would be a better argument.
 
2013-01-03 10:33:39 AM  

Philip Francis Queeg: slayer199: iq_in_binary: Again, why are dentists not subject to the same rules?

I get what you're saying but comparing a dental office and a abortion clinic is logical stretch.  Dentists are not medical doctors and are not licensed as such (unless they're an oral surgeon).

Why would the fact that Dentists have lesser training and licensing requirements be an argument for them having less oversight and regulation for procedures of similar risk?


[citation needed]
 
2013-01-03 10:33:53 AM  
These are the same people who complain about Obamacare getting between you and your doctor.
 
2013-01-03 10:34:02 AM  

Brick-House: Perhaps someone should post the names and addresses of all the women who have had an abortion on an interactive map to give the public an understanding just how big this is...


Republicans, conservatives, religious fundamentalists would be far too embarrassed to admit that they get abortions, too.
 
2013-01-03 10:34:23 AM  
You have a right an abortion. Too bad you can't exercise that right!

Brick-House: Perhaps someone should post the names and addresses of all the women who have had an abortion on an interactive map to give the public an understanding just how big this is...


Conservatives are hilariously awful at making analogies.
 
2013-01-03 10:34:35 AM  
You can't outbreed the non-whites even if you force women to have babies you don't want. If you want brown people to have less children, pay them more, allow them to enter every realm of society and provide them with affordable birth-control and abortion services.

If you want to be racist, I can't change that. But you can be smart racist and realize that by forcing women to carry unwanted pregnancies to term puts you right in line with the National Socialist German Workers' Party. You know, those guys. And nobody wants to vote for a Nazi. Well, not enough do.
 
2013-01-03 10:37:15 AM  

Smackledorfer: bulldg4life: You stupid libs should stop harping on abortion. All you are doing is trying to whip up the frenzy among your base. Roe vs Wade is set in stone and nothing will happen to it. Stop trying to win easy points with a non-issue.

Sounds like my boss. "You know, everyone I know who is voting for Obama is only doing it for social reasons"

My reply, "maybe your side, if they are that much better on fiscal and international policy than the dems, ought to just go along with the democrats on social issues to get more votes? You know, stop hating gays, blacks, browns, women?"

Him, "No, our side is on the right side of things on those issues".


Me, "Oh, so you are voting on social issues then?"

Him, "of course not, that would be stupid"

/sighs.


So your boss openly admits to being racist, sexist, and homophobic?
 
2013-01-03 10:38:28 AM  

slayer199: iq_in_binary: Again, why are dentists not subject to the same rules?

I get what you're saying but comparing a dental office and a abortion clinic is logical stretch.  Dentists are not medical doctors and are not licensed as such (unless they're an oral surgeon).


Oral surgeons aren't required to meet these requirements either.

Is there some problem with the safety and efficacy of abortion procedures that we are trying to solve with these regulations?

Please keep in mind that the legislatures and governors who passed this (at least in Virginia) have been fighting to lift regulations on business, claiming they are over-regulated which is bad for the economy. They've set the bar pretty high for a regulation to be considered "beneficial".
 
2013-01-03 10:38:51 AM  

bulldg4life: You stupid libs should stop harping on abortion. All you are doing is trying to whip up the frenzy among your base. Roe vs Wade is set in stone and nothing will happen to it. Stop trying to win easy points with a non-issue.


If its such a non issue, why do Republicans keep trying to outlaw it?
 
2013-01-03 10:39:33 AM  

bulldg4life: Brick-House: Perhaps someone should post the names and addresses of all the women who have had an abortion on an interactive map to give the public an understanding just how big this is...

Republicans, conservatives, religious fundamentalists would be far too embarrassed to admit that they get abortions, too.


I for one welcome the exposing of Hypocrites
 
2013-01-03 10:40:30 AM  

Brick-House: Perhaps someone should post the names and addresses of all the women who have had an abortion on an interactive map to give the public an understanding just how big this is...
[media.theweek.com image 660x398]


Good idea -- that way, if you let your kids go play at their houses they won't stumble across a loaded fetus and get aborted.
 
2013-01-03 10:41:26 AM  

Zasteva: Is there some problem with the safety and efficacy of abortion procedures that we are trying to solve with these regulations?

Please keep in mind that the legislatures and governors who passed this (at least in Virginia) have been fighting to lift regulations on business, claiming they are over-regulated which is bad for the economy. They've set the bar pretty high for a regulation to be considered "beneficial".


I don't disagree with you.  My point is that comparing a dental office and an abortion clinic is a poor point of comparison and you've made the better argument against the law.
 
2013-01-03 10:42:45 AM  

slayer199: If you THEN want to compare and contrast with dentistry, THAT would be a better argument.


I have nothing to say regarding dentists.   But why are you not straight up against this?  You agree the regulation is restrictive?  Then why take a stance of indifference?
 
2013-01-03 10:43:08 AM  

Generation_D: If its such a non issue, why do Republicans keep trying to outlaw it?


They aren't trying to outlaw it, you stupid dem. They are properly regulating it to protect the children.
 
2013-01-03 10:44:24 AM  

Brick-House: Perhaps someone should post the names and addresses of all the women who have had an abortion on an interactive map to give the public an understanding just how big this is...


That seems like a flagrant abuse of HIPPA privacy rights
 
2013-01-03 10:45:27 AM  

Lord Dimwit: Smackledorfer: bulldg4life: You stupid libs should stop harping on abortion. All you are doing is trying to whip up the frenzy among your base. Roe vs Wade is set in stone and nothing will happen to it. Stop trying to win easy points with a non-issue.

Sounds like my boss. "You know, everyone I know who is voting for Obama is only doing it for social reasons"

My reply, "maybe your side, if they are that much better on fiscal and international policy than the dems, ought to just go along with the democrats on social issues to get more votes? You know, stop hating gays, blacks, browns, women?"

Him, "No, our side is on the right side of things on those issues".

Me, "Oh, so you are voting on social issues then?"

Him, "of course not, that would be stupid"

/sighs.

So your boss openly admits to being racist, sexist, and homophobic?


He openly admits he doesn't think gays should marry or be allowed to adopt, women's access to health care should be restricted, supports any and all anti-immigration measures he's seen, and doesn't see an issue with profiling by cops.

I think he would disagree with the terms you use (though I wouldn't). People go through a lot of hoops to make their bad thinking seem ok. Probably more work than it would take to simply stop being a hater..
 
2013-01-03 10:45:52 AM  

TofuTheAlmighty: You have a right an abortion. Too bad you can't exercise that right!

Brick-House: Perhaps someone should post the names and addresses of all the women who have had an abortion on an interactive map to give the public an understanding just how big this is...

Conservatives are hilariously awful at making analogies.


In 2011 - the latest year for which detailed statistics are available - there were 12,664 murders in the US. Of those, 8,583 were caused by firearms.

On the other hand, in 2008, approximately 1.21 million abortions took place in the U.S.

Dead is Dead is Dead
 
2013-01-03 10:45:58 AM  

slayer199: IMHO, a better argument would be show the legislation was unnecessary..  In other words, what are the statistics of women having abortions that have further infections or require immediate emergency medical care.  A better argument would be that the state is going to add xyz dollars of regulations for a statistically small amount of women that either suffer infections or require emergency medical care.


Isn't it the burden of showing why the law is necessary on the legislators trying to change the existing law?

By criticizing the opponents of this legislation, you are effectively defending the legislation, whether you intended to or not.

If your intent is to teach us how to make a better argument, then don't tell us how to do it, just make the argument. If it really is better, people will set aside their weaker arguments and take up yours.
 
2013-01-03 10:47:58 AM  

Brick-House: TofuTheAlmighty: You have a right an abortion. Too bad you can't exercise that right!

Brick-House: Perhaps someone should post the names and addresses of all the women who have had an abortion on an interactive map to give the public an understanding just how big this is...

Conservatives are hilariously awful at making analogies.

In 2011 - the latest year for which detailed statistics are available - there were 12,664 murders in the US. Of those, 8,583 were caused by firearms.

On the other hand, in 2008, approximately 1.21 million abortions took place in the U.S.

Dead is Dead is Dead


did I commit several hundred million if not billions of murders the last time I rubbed one out? I sure hope you are anti-war as well. and all for social services that help keep people healthy and living.
 
2013-01-03 10:49:08 AM  

bulldg4life: Generation_D: If its such a non issue, why do Republicans keep trying to outlaw it?

They aren't trying to outlaw it, you stupid dem. They are properly regulating it to protect the children.


So true... lots of unborn children are dying as a result of the way abortion procedures are carried out! They are just trying to put a stop to those unwanted deaths from this obviously unsafe procedure.
 
2013-01-03 10:49:18 AM  

bulldg4life: Generation_D: If its such a non issue, why do Republicans keep trying to outlaw it?

They aren't trying to outlaw it, you stupid dem. They are properly regulating it to protect the children.


Straight to ignore.  Play nice or eff off.  You may eff off.
 
2013-01-03 10:49:23 AM  

slayer199: My point is that comparing a dental office and an abortion clinic is a poor point of comparison and you've made the better argument against the law.


If dentistry (a fairly apolitical health field) is regulated significantly less relative to the danger it poses to patients than abortion clinics (obviously an extremely politically charged issue), then it shows a clear bias on the part of the regulating body.

That is why the comparison is made, and it is apt. It isn't that dentistry = abortion, but in fact that dentistry is different in a very important way from abortion.
 
2013-01-03 10:50:02 AM  

Generation_D: bulldg4life: Generation_D: If its such a non issue, why do Republicans keep trying to outlaw it?

They aren't trying to outlaw it, you stupid dem. They are properly regulating it to protect the children.

Straight to ignore.  Play nice or eff off.  You may eff off.


He is being sarcastic, and you are being dense.
 
2013-01-03 10:50:25 AM  

GAT_00: I have nothing to say regarding dentists. But why are you not straight up against this? You agree the regulation is restrictive? Then why take a stance of indifference?


I am against the law.

My larger point is how these debates are framed.  You have the left on one side, the right on the other...and to the middle, the GOP has framed the debate in reasonable terms so Joe Average would say, "That doesn't seem unreasonable."

When you reposition the debate statistically showing it's entirely unnecessary and government overreach in what amounts to something that will make abortion more difficult, THAT would resonate more with the middle than "What about Dentist's offices!!!"
 
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