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(BBC)   Switzerland no longer a safe gun-toting mecca   (bbc.co.uk) divider line 20
    More: Scary, Swiss Police, RTS, Daillon  
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14891 clicks; posted to Main » on 03 Jan 2013 at 12:59 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-03 01:31:30 AM
3 votes:
Guess what? Where there are guns, there are people getting shot with guns. There are no places where people have no guns and yet nobody dies. There are places where nobody has guns but guess what? In those places, people get stabbed or beaten to death. It's almost as though guns were merely tools people use to enable themselves to kill more effectively.
2013-01-03 04:15:18 PM
1 votes:

cryinoutloud: There's lots more...... Funny, I don't see anything there about being a safe and responsible gun owner. Just a lot of blustering about how everyone is trying to abridge your gun rights, and must be stopped.


Given Obama's call for more gun control, just after the election and even before he starts his second term, it sort of makes the NRA look prophetic, doesn't it?

Not that it took a genius to see it: I was arguing on Fark at least 3 years ago that Obama wasn't likely to act on gun control until after he gets reelected, and I'm no genius.
2013-01-03 02:27:55 PM
1 votes:

The Lone Gunman: I believe that the NRA is more concerned with sales than with safety or security.


The NRA is a USER GROUP. The firearms industry group is the National Shooting Sports Foundation (NSSF).

In fact, the NRA has been just fine with boycotts of firearms manufacturers. Like they were with Smith and Wesson, at the time the largest US manufacturer of handguns, because they had signed a deal with the Clinton administration.

Right now, there are rumbles among the NRA membership about a boycott of Dicks Sporting Goods, a major firearms retailer, because of their decision to stop carrying modern sporting rifles.

Hardly the actions of an organization that is more worried about firearms sales than anything else.
2013-01-03 09:11:12 AM
1 votes:

2wolves: With rights come responsibilities. I never hear the firearm fetishist faction speak of responsibility.


Then you haven't spoken to many gun owners. The gun culture in the United States - note I said gun culture, not criminal culture - is primarily concerned with gun safety and responsibility. Yes, really. It's kind of a big deal. And the big evil NRA is in fact a major player in promoting safety, responsibility, and training.
2013-01-03 09:10:28 AM
1 votes:
Uh, "drug addict" and "mental health patient" aren't lingo used to describe responsible gun owners...
2013-01-03 08:53:17 AM
1 votes:
Since God was removed from villages this was inevitable.
2013-01-03 08:42:32 AM
1 votes:

Shakin_Haitian: capt.hollister: Switzerland is, in fact, a very heavily armed country. Every male citizen is a soldier for most of his life (age 18 to 52, IIRC) and must be able to mobilize at a moment's notice. To this end, they all have their uniform and army rifles at home with exactly 3 bullets which they must be able to produce at all times.

My buddy in Geneva is part of an anti-tank unit, so in addition to his rifle and 3 bullets, he also has a bazooka and related ordinance at home.

/Switzerland, home of heavily-armed neutrality

This is a lie. No one has ammo for their guns, unless they're at a shooting range or if they're in quick response groups, of which there are very few. Most Swiss give their guns back to the government after their service is up, anyway.


Wrong, wrong, and absolutely false. Swiss citizens absolutely can and do have ammo for guns at their house.

There are over a million privately owned, government-given machineguns in the country.
2013-01-03 08:16:22 AM
1 votes:

Seth'n'Spectrum: Meh, the primary problem in the U.S. is that gun ownership is treated as a right


Well, because it IS a right.

the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed..

The 2nd amendment never gave us the right to own firearms, it recognized that we ALREADY had the right, and the government was not to take that right away.
2013-01-03 07:58:45 AM
1 votes:

Ilmarinen: Mock26: So why would you want to punish 100 million people because every year a handful of legal gun owners commit a crime with their guns?

Have you considered that it might not be about punishing? That it might not be about you?


Maybe it isn't, but it has that effect, so to his and my viewpoints, the end result is exactly the same whether that is the intent or not.
2013-01-03 06:32:59 AM
1 votes:

Seth'n'Spectrum: Meh, the primary problem in the U.S. is that gun ownership is treated as a right. This is a problem because people don't measure the constitution up to any standard except for itself. "It's a good right because it's in the constitution" is simply not an argument, yet it's promoted as such by both the left and the right in this country.

Other countries like the ones mentioned above don't have this issue. Gun ownership is like owning a car - the regulations aren't the same, but they're both matters of utilitarian public policy. Once you take the rhetorical varnish off of the issue, there's a lot more room for level-headed policy-making.


A "goo" right as opposed to a "bad" right? Do we really wnat to go there? Could we not apply the same standard to marriage for example. It is not a right but a licensed, regulated activity drivien by public policy. Or how about the "right" to an abortion or the "right" to tax payer provided"free" health care?

"Resistance to sudden violence, for the preservation not only of my person, my limbs, and life, but of my property, is an indisputable right of nature which I have never surrendered to the public by the compact of society, and which perhaps, I could not surrender if I would." (John Adams, Boston Gazette, Sept. 5, 1763, reprinted in The Works of John Adams 438 [Charles F. Adams ed., 1851])

"Arms in the hands of individual citizens may be used at individual discretion in private self-defense." (John Adams, A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America [1787-1788])

"When we got organized as a country and we wrote a fairly radical Constitution with a radical Bill of Rights, giving a radical amount of individual freedom to Americans ... And so a lot of people say there's too much personal freedom. When personal freedom's being abused, you have to move to limit it. " Bill Clinton, 4/19/94, MTV's "Enough is Enough"
2013-01-03 06:25:55 AM
1 votes:

fusillade762: Mythbusting: Israel and Switzerland are not gun-toting utopias


That article with information from Rosenbaum and Klein has some laughably wrong information about Switzerland.

"First of all, because they don't have high levels of gun ownership. The gun ownership in Israel and Switzerland has decreased."

False.

http://www.fedpol.admin.ch/content/ejpd/de/home/dokumentation/abstimm u ngen/2011-02-13/faq.faq_9.html

Link

Switzerland is in the top five for per capita firearm ownership. The Swiss army issues about 30,000 NEW Sturmgewehr 90s a year.

"Both countries require you to have a reason to have a gun. There isn't this idea that you have a right to a gun. You need a reason. And then you need to go back to the permitting authority every six months or so to assure them the reason is still valid."

FALSE, for Switzerland at least. There is absolutely no cause needed to own a gun in Switzerland. The part about having to go back every six months is ridiculously false, no such requirement exists for firearm ownership in Swizterland.

"Switzerland doesn't promote gun ownership."

FALSE again. You know those 30,000 machineguns, yes, real machineguns, not semiautomatics, the government hands out every year? Soldiers can BUY those at the end of their service and keep them. There are over a million privately owned machineguns in the hands of Swiss citizens, and that only comprises about 12 percent of privately owned firearms. Switzerland has one of the largest shooting events in the world every year, Feldschiessen, drawing in upwards of 250,000 people, which I believe is bigger than any such event in the United States.

"Switzerland has also been moving away from having widespread guns. The laws are done canton by canton, which is like a province. Everyone in Switzerland serves in the army, and the cantons used to let you have the guns at home. They've been moving to keeping the guns in depots. That means they're not in the household, which makes sense because the literature shows us that if the gun is in the household, the risk goes up for everyone in the household."

False again. The federal government guarantees the right to keep guns at home.

The part about "Switzerland has been moving to keeping guns in depots?"

FALSE. This is ludicrously inaccurate information perhaps based on a failed 2011 referendum "Für den Schutz vor Waffengewalt" in which, had it passed, military weapons would have to be kept in depots instead of homes. 75 percent of kantons rejected this measure. It is not even remotely close to becoming law, let alone the standing law as that retard suggests it is.
2013-01-03 06:02:54 AM
1 votes:
Time to ban guns. The crime with them just keeps getting worse and worse. Oh wait...

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-t h e-u.s.-2011/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-8

Link

i.imgur.com

i.imgur.com
2013-01-03 02:32:50 AM
1 votes:

The Lone Gunman: Well, in Switzerland everybody has a gun. So the NRA should do everything they can to make sure everybody has TWO guns.

And, just like in the US, the NRA has some recommended outlets where you can buy more guns,

GUNS!

(Yes, I know that Switzerland doesn't have an NRA)


Wat
2013-01-03 02:04:29 AM
1 votes:
Meh, the primary problem in the U.S. is that gun ownership is treated as a right. This is a problem because people don't measure the constitution up to any standard except for itself. "It's a good right because it's in the constitution" is simply not an argument, yet it's promoted as such by both the left and the right in this country.

Other countries like the ones mentioned above don't have this issue. Gun ownership is like owning a car - the regulations aren't the same, but they're both matters of utilitarian public policy. Once you take the rhetorical varnish off of the issue, there's a lot more room for level-headed policy-making.

So, Libs, the only solution is to repeal the 2nd amendment. The sooner that fact is accepted, the sooner it will actually happen. Wait, no, who am I kidding. We're doomed to continually flip the two sides of the Gang Banger - Rugged Cowboy coin forever. Viva la muerte.

/dammit, I successfully resisted these threads for so long
2013-01-03 02:04:10 AM
1 votes:

Gyrfalcon: Guess what? Where there are guns, there are people getting shot with guns. There are no places where people have no guns and yet nobody dies. There are places where nobody has guns but guess what? In those places, people get stabbed or beaten to death. It's almost as though guns were merely tools people use to enable themselves to kill more effectively.


No, no, no. Its the weapons. Look at England, they banned guns and they are a utopia. Oh, crap, they're not. But they've banned knives, and soon, they will ban trees. Because trees have big heavy limbs that you can use to hit people and therefore promote violence. After that, though, everyone will be safe there, forever.

And this really is a shocking story and would make me rethink any plan to go the Switzerland. 5 people shot. 5 people could never get injured by the same person in a country that has no guns....Switzerland has really turned into an unsafe hellhole because of the guns there...
2013-01-03 01:21:12 AM
1 votes:

fusillade762: Mythbusting: Israel and Switzerland are not gun-toting utopias


That article is, at best, a gross misrepresentation of Swiss gun laws, practices, and ownership culture.

Here is an overview from an actual Swiss citizen and shooter who knows the actual laws:

Some Notes on the Swiss Firearms Experience (and Some 5.56 NATO Ammo for Sane Gun Policy Advocates)
2013-01-03 01:18:30 AM
1 votes:
fusillade

Mythbusting: Israel and Switzerland are not gun-toting utopias


From the link: "Switzerland has also been moving away from having widespread guns"

So NOW they have a mass shooting....

Kinda makes the NRA's point, doesn't it?
2013-01-03 01:11:37 AM
1 votes:
I'm sure this thread will be full of respectful, insightful comments...like every other Fark gun thread.
2013-01-03 01:03:55 AM
1 votes:
Well, in Switzerland everybody has a gun. So the NRA should do everything they can to make sure everybody has TWO guns.

And, just like in the US, the NRA has some recommended outlets where you can buy more guns,

GUNS!

(Yes, I know that Switzerland doesn't have an NRA)
2013-01-03 01:03:19 AM
1 votes:

fusillade762: Mythbusting: Israel and Switzerland are not gun-toting utopias


Someone was calling Israel a utopia? There's missiles flying into people's backyards, for fark's sake.
 
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