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(New York Daily News)   In a completely unbiased statement, head of the company that wants to install safety doors on NYC subway platforms says it is the MTA's fault that a man standing at the edge of the platform was pushed onto the tracks by a nut   (nydailynews.com) divider line 53
    More: Obvious, Mta, electrical conductor, transit system  
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983 clicks; posted to Business » on 02 Jan 2013 at 11:56 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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ZAZ [TotalFark]
2013-01-02 09:40:18 AM  
I'd rather have more dead commuters than more advertisements in train stations.
 
2013-01-02 10:19:58 AM  
I blame the crazy woman that pushed him.
 
2013-01-02 10:24:26 AM  
The nutters will find a way. Put up barriers in the stations and they'll simply stay up on the streets pushing strollers into traffic.

Treatment is not an option. NYC is crammed with 'civil-liberties' lawyers who make a nice living arguing that the civil rights of the certifiably violent batshiat trump everybody else's...and besides, locking up the mentally ill is, far as NY precedent is concerned, a violation of the Americans with Disabilities Act.

Anybody seen the Wild Man of 96th Street lately? He gets out from time to time. But hey, isolated incident, nothing to see here, move along, he's only been in and out of mental hospitals for 40 years so why the hate?
 
2013-01-02 11:58:08 AM  
The temptation to push someone is very difficult to resist.
 
2013-01-02 12:02:42 PM  
One of the first things my dad told me 30+ years ago when riding the subway was to stand as far back from the edge of the platform and to always remain aware. I'm still shocked at the number of people I see standing two foot from the train edge, headphones on and texting away on the cell phones.

Sad to say, but a lot of Darwin going on with these people getting pushed in front of trains.
 
2013-01-02 12:15:31 PM  
It's indescribable, the rush of wind as the subway train passes within inches of you. It's like the air cushion between life and death. Maybe skydivers have some concept of this.

Screens, like the Airtrain has, take something away from that experience. Union Square Downtown 6 is my favorite, the train leans into the platform as it goes into the curve.
 
2013-01-02 12:40:32 PM  
When I was in Singapore I traveled by subway quite a bit and I think the system they use is very good. Other then cost I see no reason we shouldn't start implementing something like this in NYC:
upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-01-02 12:46:28 PM  

Gulper Eel: Treatment is not an option. NYC is crammed with 'civil-liberties' lawyers who make a nice living arguing that the civil rights of the certifiably violent batshiat trump everybody else's...and besides, locking up the mentally ill is, far as NY precedent is concerned, a violation of the Americans with Disabilities Act.


and, lets be honest, all of that is probably true but it boils down to money. NY (or any other state really) doesn't have the political will to spend the money to pay to keep these folks in a facility. the cost of long term treatment in a secured and humane facility is much higher than just giving them meds for 2 weeks making them pinky swear to keep taking them and turning them back out into the street.
 
2013-01-02 01:04:27 PM  
Just because there's a conflict of interest, doesn't mean they're wrong.
 
2013-01-02 01:05:59 PM  
Article:

And asking union conductors to push a second set of buttons could cost money at contract negotiation time.


Seriously? WTF?
 
2013-01-02 01:09:55 PM  

too_amuzed: Article:

And asking union conductors to push a second set of buttons could cost money at contract negotiation time.


Seriously? WTF?


The Metro still has conductors? You can start there for waste and inefficiency....
 
2013-01-02 01:18:33 PM  

opiumpoopy: too_amuzed: Article:

And asking union conductors to push a second set of buttons could cost money at contract negotiation time.


Seriously? WTF?

The Metro still has conductors? You can start there for waste and inefficiency....


Two for each train!

It's a struggle against the unions to get even OPTO (one person train operation) in anywhere.
 
2013-01-02 01:19:20 PM  
Argh, one conductor and one motorman. Two people per train.
 
2013-01-02 01:54:11 PM  
heh, so much like a gun thread it comes down to cost vs. mental care cost. All about the money boys!
 
2013-01-02 01:58:10 PM  

TommyJReed: When I was in Singapore I traveled by subway quite a bit and I think the system they use is very good. Other then cost I see no reason we shouldn't start implementing something like this in NYC:
[upload.wikimedia.org image 800x600]


Ah, but Singapore is a well run company.
 
2013-01-02 02:07:20 PM  

Gulper Eel: NYC is crammed with 'civil-liberties' lawyers who make a nice living arguing that the civil rights of the certifiably violent batshiat trump everybody else's...


If they can't get Stop and Frisk thrown out, they are shiat at their jobs.
 
2013-01-02 02:15:48 PM  

LoneDoggie: heh, so much like a gun thread it comes down to cost vs. mental care cost. All about the money boys!


Don't forget the environment. The manufacture, transportation, installation, operation, and repair of this system has an environmental impact beyond zero.

The doors and tubes within tubes in other countries are not present in all or most stations - just the busiest ones which also tend to be the ones in areas tourists are most likely to use. Google image search "London tube" for example. There are over 400 stations in NYC. I bet if we surveyed the people in those 400 stations we would find they think human life is more important than cost, or certainly profit, but more important than either is that somebody else pays for it.
 
2013-01-02 02:22:58 PM  

Big_Fat_Liar: LoneDoggie: heh, so much like a gun thread it comes down to cost vs. mental care cost. All about the money boys!

Don't forget the environment. The manufacture, transportation, installation, operation, and repair of this system has an environmental impact beyond zero.

The doors and tubes within tubes in other countries are not present in all or most stations - just the busiest ones which also tend to be the ones in areas tourists are most likely to use. Google image search "London tube" for example. There are over 400 stations in NYC. I bet if we surveyed the people in those 400 stations we would find they think human life is more important than cost, or certainly profit, but more important than either is that somebody else pays for it.


Even in Paris, which TFA held up as their shining example, they've only put the platform doors up on three of the 20-odd Métro and RER (regional express trains, picture something halfway between the Subway and Metro-North) lines in the system. The N° 14 train had them when it opened in 1997, and the 1 and 13 lines only got them because they're the busiest lines (and in the case of the N° 1 line because they were refitting it for driverless operation).
 
2013-01-02 02:38:43 PM  
Just how about not standing on the edge of a train platform? I can understand if it's busy in the station or whatever, but really...it's sort of like standing in the bus zone spot, and not the shelter 3 feet behind it.
 
2013-01-02 03:05:45 PM  

TommyJReed: When I was in Singapore I traveled by subway quite a bit and I think the system they use is very good. Other then cost I see no reason we shouldn't start implementing something like this in NYC:
[upload.wikimedia.org image 800x600]


Money and logistics
 
2013-01-02 03:10:42 PM  

oMaJoJ: TommyJReed: When I was in Singapore I traveled by subway quite a bit and I think the system they use is very good. Other then cost I see no reason we shouldn't start implementing something like this in NYC:
[upload.wikimedia.org image 800x600]

Money and logistics


And you have to consider that most of the New York system was built 50-100 years ago. When they built these things they weren't built with future expansion and upgrades in mind like things are today.
 
2013-01-02 03:12:46 PM  

TommyJReed: When I was in Singapore I traveled by subway quite a bit and I think the system they use is very good. Other then cost I see no reason we shouldn't start implementing something like this in NYC:
[upload.wikimedia.org image 800x600]


It doesn't even have to be that closed in. It can be sliding gates and bars all the way across.

That would also cut down on costs.
 
2013-01-02 03:17:36 PM  
Explain to me why this wasn't done in 1901.

The idea of an open (electric) rail (in a ditch) along one side of a busy thorough fare frequented by the craziest SOBs in the world sort of makes me nervous, like the idea of obliging everybody in town (and thus the psychotics, sociopaths, loonies, suicides and thrill killers) to carry firearms for their own "safety". I'm no Nanny-Stater, but there's such a thing as tempting fate above and beyond the call of Doody Headedness.

There's a difference, by the way, between safety and security. A household with a pile of loaded guns has security. A household without a pile of loaded guns is provably safer because the first thing that thieves want to steal is your pile of loaded guns, which are very useful in the commission of armed robberies and other crimes and which can be easily cached so you can sell them on to the next murderer or armed robber.

75% of all firearms-related crimes are committed with stolen weapons owned by idiots who bought them for their personal or family security. These should be subtracted from the infinitesimal number of crimes prevented by the armed citizen when calculating the net benefits of an armed citizenry. I'm kind of guessing 75% is a bigger number than the percentage of guns which are actually fired in self-defence and I will therefore happily throw in the criminals who use them in legitimate self-defence against other criminals FOR FREE!

But I digress. Here's a money-saving idea for cash-strapped cities: stop putting manhole covers on manholes! You can always blame the lawyers for any failure of economies to materialize as citizens magically disappear!
 
2013-01-02 03:17:49 PM  

Gulper Eel: Treatment is not an option. NYC is crammed with 'civil-liberties' lawyers who make a nice living arguing that the civil rights of the certifiably violent batshiat trump everybody else's...and besides, locking up the mentally ill is, far as NY precedent is concerned, a violation of the Americans with Disabilities Act.



It's the cost and expense of maintaining facilities to house and treat the mentally ill that is the actual cause for so many mental patients being released into the wild. In any event your response above is some combination of hyperbole, fantasy, and delusion...you might want to consider seeking help.
 
2013-01-02 03:21:35 PM  
"And asking union conductors to push a second set of buttons could cost money at contract negotiation time."

3.bp.blogspot.com

Didn't Homer Simpson figure this one out?
... seriously, fark unions.
 
2013-01-02 03:23:10 PM  

TommyJReed: When I was in Singapore I traveled by subway quite a bit and I think the system they use is very good. Other then cost I see no reason we shouldn't start implementing something like this in NYC:
[upload.wikimedia.org image 800x600]


You expect the train drivers to stop at exactly the doors? This might work in Asia, but in other countries?
 
2013-01-02 03:29:18 PM  

brantgoose: Explain to me why this wasn't done in 1901.

The idea of an open (electric) rail (in a ditch) along one side of a busy thorough fare frequented by the craziest SOBs in the world sort of makes me nervous, like the idea of obliging everybody in town (and thus the psychotics, sociopaths, loonies, suicides and thrill killers) to carry firearms for their own "safety". I'm no Nanny-Stater, but there's such a thing as tempting fate above and beyond the call of Doody Headedness.

There's a difference, by the way, between safety and security. A household with a pile of loaded guns has security. A household without a pile of loaded guns is provably safer because the first thing that thieves want to steal is your pile of loaded guns, which are very useful in the commission of armed robberies and other crimes and which can be easily cached so you can sell them on to the next murderer or armed robber.

75% of all firearms-related crimes are committed with stolen weapons owned by idiots who bought them for their personal or family security. These should be subtracted from the infinitesimal number of crimes prevented by the armed citizen when calculating the net benefits of an armed citizenry. I'm kind of guessing 75% is a bigger number than the percentage of guns which are actually fired in self-defence and I will therefore happily throw in the criminals who use them in legitimate self-defence against other criminals FOR FREE!

But I digress. Here's a money-saving idea for cash-strapped cities: stop putting manhole covers on manholes! You can always blame the lawyers for any failure of economies to materialize as citizens magically disappear!


Tragedies are cheaper than barriers. Does that really need to be said? There's no financial profit in being noble and considerate. Welcome to capitalism.

If there's enough dead people to warrant high demand for barriers, there will be barriers. Until then, the occasional entirely preventable tragedy is the price we'll to pay for society's apathy.
 
2013-01-02 03:36:21 PM  

mjohnson71: One of the first things my dad told me 30+ years ago when riding the subway was to stand as far back from the edge of the platform and to always remain aware. I'm still shocked at the number of people I see standing two foot from the train edge, headphones on and texting away on the cell phones.


Good advice regardless of which subway system you're using. In general, the "be aware of your surroundings" advice is good regardless of where you are. Crazy stuff can happen in an instant, and it's good to know your surroundings when/if it does. Big difference between being paranoid vs. being aware of what's going on around you.

It really amuses me to see people wearing those active sound isolating headphones while at the train/subway/walking city streets. I can't believe that they're aware of much of anything, not even what they're doing. I still can't figure out whether those people are just so self-important that they don't feel the need to pay attention to anyone else, or if it's just that technology has insulated us to the point where it's just an unavoidable consequence of "enhancing the user's experience". Probably a bit of both.

Sad to say, but a lot of Darwin going on with these people getting pushed in front of trains.

THIS. But more so with people who manage to pull off the same feat where nobody else is involved (and it happens often enough that we're no longer surprised by it).

/still, not cool.
 
2013-01-02 03:37:43 PM  
the system has worked for decades. a handful of people dying out of a million riders is not a reason to change it. if youre scared, dont ride the train.
 
2013-01-02 04:11:31 PM  

meathome: It really amuses me to see people wearing those active sound isolating headphones while at the train/subway/walking city streets. I can't believe that they're aware of much of anything, not even what they're doing. I still can't figure out whether those people are just so self-important that they don't feel the need to pay attention to anyone else, or if it's just that technology has insulated us to the point where it's just an unavoidable consequence of "enhancing the user's experience". Probably a bit of both.


Really, that's what you think it is? Not the fact that they don't want to listen to the pointless, inane conversation 2 ft behind behind them to the left of them, somebody's toddler screaming about something a bit further behind those guy and some lame ass street performer warbling the same tired song he's been singing for the past half hour on the other platform? And that's all before the train comes crashing into the station BOOMBUMBOOMBUMBOOMBUMBOOMBUMBOOMBUM!!! You shuffle on the train, grab a pole if you can, and, OH LOOK, IT'S THAT STREET PERFORMER WITH THE F*CKING DRUM!" Or is it the mariachi group today? No wait, that's the A line uptown in the early afternoon. And will those "kids" selling candy "for their school basketball team" show up today? At least on the L line, they're consistent (Myrtle-Wyckoff) and they're not bullshiatting you.

You know what, if tuning all that out makes me self-important, then I'll gladly admit it. I'm just on this farking train to get to where I need to go. I'll pass the time listening to my audiobook, fark the sights and sounds, I've heard it all before. Also, the people with the headphones get to spot and just chill and they're not the ones getting pushed on to the tracks

/As someone who does wear over ear headphones, I can assure you I know what is going on
 
2013-01-02 04:21:10 PM  
Blood on the tracks is more common than many people think, even with all the recent attention on two people who were killed after being pushed and one suspected suicide. The MTA even has ads up in the trains that demonstrate the scope of the problem: 146 people struck by trains in 2011, 47 killed. They spend tens of millions of dollars a year on personal injury claims.

Think of the secondary costs, too. A subway motorman is all but guaranteed to see a person go under the wheels of their train at least once in their career. That's not easy, or inexpensive, to cope with. And think of the lost productivity when tens of thousands of people along a train line are delayed by a track incident.

I have a concept in my head for a barrier system design that would be mechanically simple, easily retrofittable into existing stations and signaling systems, could incorporate advertising space as a way of recouping costs, and would not require trains to be computer-controlled for precise platform alignment nor standardization on one type of rolling stock with a specific door configuration.

All I need is an MS in Engineering, a patent attorney, and a few million in seed capital.
 
2013-01-02 04:38:34 PM  
The subway system is antiquated, so the additional doors could not be fully automated in most stations. Instead, a conductor would have to manually activate them.
And asking union conductors to push a second set of buttons could cost money at contract negotiation time.

"They thought the transit union would have a lot of problems with having to hit a second button," Santora said. "They would use that as leverage to try and squeeze more money out of them."


This being New York City, this is not surprising.

Sad, but not surprising. At all.

/but what's really important is if anyone tries to buy a Big Gulp
 
2013-01-02 04:54:10 PM  

TommyJReed: When I was in Singapore I traveled by subway quite a bit and I think the system they use is very good. Other then cost I see no reason we shouldn't start implementing something like this in NYC:
[upload.wikimedia.org image 800x600]


HK has a similar system. I'm not sure if it was more for safety or to help keep the stations comfortably air conditioned.

Also the trains have open ended cars from one end to the other, so there is a nice breeze once the train gets going. A

I never saw a conductor, so I assume the whole system was automated.
 
2013-01-02 05:08:41 PM  
It's not really a problem. So it's not really worth spending the $$ to "fix" it.
 
2013-01-02 06:24:17 PM  
A Billion people use the NYC Subway a year and only 59 die, you can get better odds of dieing by coconut strike.
 
2013-01-02 06:26:33 PM  

Hydra: The subway system is antiquated, so the additional doors could not be fully automated in most stations. Instead, a conductor would have to manually activate them.
And asking union conductors to push a second set of buttons could cost money at contract negotiation time.

"They thought the transit union would have a lot of problems with having to hit a second button," Santora said. "They would use that as leverage to try and squeeze more money out of them."

This being New York City, this is not surprising.

Sad, but not surprising. At all.

/but what's really important is if anyone tries to buy a Big Gulp


Why can't I buy a Big Gulp?
 
2013-01-02 06:36:06 PM  
I have no problem with this idea at all.

For one thing, it'll keep people from getting blasted with gusts of air that reek of rat urine. It also prevents people from throwing food and garbage on the tracks to feed the rats. People will no longer have a problem of objects falling and rolling off the platform. Blind people and small children will be safer. High school students will have to find other ways to tease each other than to slap each other hard on the shoulders as they stand next to the gap. It may even keep vagrants out of the infrastructure.

Lacking that, my policy has always been to stand with my back to whatever wall is available, so no one can get behind me.
 
2013-01-02 08:30:10 PM  

JK47: It's the cost and expense of maintaining facilities to house and treat the mentally ill that is the actual cause for so many mental patients being released into the wild. In any event your response above is some combination of hyperbole, fantasy, and delusion...you might want to consider seeking help.


In New York, having the money is actually not the problem. They have the money. The state has the nation's largest Medicaid program - now bigger than Pennsylvania's plus Florida's plus Texas's combined. The problem is what the state does with the money it has. $52 billion a year, just for Medicaid. A pile of shiat that big is going to attract lots of flies, so to speak. And thanks to a quirk in the federal reimbursement formula the state was able to use the profoundly disabled and mentally ill institutionalized as cash cows...to the tune of several hundred million dollars a year which didn't necessarily have to be used on treatment.

In 2009, the federal government spent more money reimbursing New York for housing 1,400 patients at the state's largest developmental centers than it spent reimbursing any of 14 other states for all Medicaid recipients, the committee report said. Vermont, for instance, was reimbursed less for all of its 182,045 Medicaid enrollees. And Nevada was reimbursed less for all 290,435 of its Medicaid recipients.

So yeah, the money's been there, and plenty of it. Quel surprise, it didn't actually go to patient care and sure as shiat wasn't used to pull violent loonies off the streets. And all perfectly legal, or at least Washington looked the other way for 20 years or so. But some meddling reporters had to go and ruin things with their insistence on investigating stuff, and eventually even the dimwits in Congress learned to read a newspaper and worked up the gumption to tell New York that the days of scamming Washington out of $15 billion were over.
 
2013-01-02 08:50:11 PM  

Hydra: The subway system is antiquated, so the additional doors could not be fully automated in most stations. Instead, a conductor would have to manually activate them.
And asking union conductors to push a second set of buttons could cost money at contract negotiation time.

"They thought the transit union would have a lot of problems with having to hit a second button," Santora said. "They would use that as leverage to try and squeeze more money out of them."

This being New York City, this is not surprising.

Sad, but not surprising. At all.

/but what's really important is if anyone tries to buy a Big Gulp


Hm, all those enclosed automated rail systems around the world have no problem with extra buttons, or operator unions.

Because they don't have human operators...
 
2013-01-02 08:53:04 PM  

oMaJoJ: /As someone who does wear over ear headphones, I can assure you I know what is going on


I should get some of those protective ear things, taking the train every day is damaging my hearing. :(
 
2013-01-02 08:57:47 PM  

StopLurkListen: Because they don't have human operators...


Non human operators, who can't hit the brakes if something happens, who can't hold the train door as you are running through the station with an armful of packages, who can't reopen the door if you have a foot stuck in it.
 
2013-01-02 09:43:37 PM  

Kanemano: StopLurkListen: Because they don't have human operators...

Non human operators, who can't hit the brakes if something happens, who can't hold the train door as you are running through the station with an armful of packages, who can't reopen the door if you have a foot stuck in it.


The first one is irrelevant because automatic systems can detect and react faster than humans can. In the case of a stuck foot, train doors reopen if they get resistance before they're fully closed, and furthermore trains have an interlock that prevents the train from moving if a door isn't closed. In the middle case of someone running to catch a train ... if that's the worst we can say about something, that's not too bad.
 
2013-01-02 10:06:20 PM  

StopLurkListen: Kanemano: StopLurkListen: Because they don't have human operators...

Non human operators, who can't hit the brakes if something happens, who can't hold the train door as you are running through the station with an armful of packages, who can't reopen the door if you have a foot stuck in it.

The first one is irrelevant because automatic systems can detect and react faster than humans can. In the case of a stuck foot, train doors reopen if they get resistance before they're fully closed, and furthermore trains have an interlock that prevents the train from moving if a door isn't closed. In the middle case of someone running to catch a train ... if that's the worst we can say about something, that's not too bad.


And if all those automatic systems fail, there are always manual override switches. Which can be operated by, y'know, other passengers, assuming they're minimally decent, competent human beings.

Granted, this may not be a safe assumption to make on your average subway, but it works okay on my local commuter rail.
 
2013-01-02 11:10:16 PM  

Kanemano: A Billion people use the NYC Subway a year and only 59 die, you can get better odds of dieing by coconut strike.


I wish people actually understood statistics in this country, we'd be much better off. Though after riding the train in Shanghai, I would be in favor of the gates to the tracks. Not for safety reasons, but cleanliness. If people can't throw their trash onto the tracks it would keep the stations far cleaner. Much easier to sweep up the platform than the tracks which would help to cut down on rats even though I enjoy watching the rats scurry around if I see one waiting for the train. Plus, it would cause fewer train back ups from garbage fires or someone getting hit. And when I see the lists of number of people who get hit by trains each year I always wonder how many actually intended to get hit by a train.
 
2013-01-03 04:51:55 AM  

lucksi: TommyJReed: When I was in Singapore I traveled by subway quite a bit and I think the system they use is very good. Other then cost I see no reason we shouldn't start implementing something like this in NYC:
[upload.wikimedia.org image 800x600]

You expect the train drivers to stop at exactly the doors? This might work in Asia, but in other countries?


Works in Paris.
 
2013-01-03 09:59:37 AM  
How about a sign scrawled on some cardboard "Don't stand at the edge of the platform, crazy people will push you in front of a train"
 
2013-01-03 10:06:38 AM  

oMaJoJ: TommyJReed: When I was in Singapore I traveled by subway quite a bit and I think the system they use is very good. Other then cost I see no reason we shouldn't start implementing something like this in NYC:
[upload.wikimedia.org image 800x600]

Money and logistics


the company is offering to install the sliding doors at no charge:

Crown Infrastructure offered the MTA a seeming win-win: The company would build the sliding doors on platforms, providing a new level of safety for riders, plus a reduction in track fires and noise.  In exchange, Crown would keep all the revenue from advertising on the high-tech portals.
 
2013-01-03 10:09:56 AM  

lucksi: TommyJReed: When I was in Singapore I traveled by subway quite a bit and I think the system they use is very good. Other then cost I see no reason we shouldn't start implementing something like this in NYC:
[upload.wikimedia.org image 800x600]

You expect the train drivers to stop at exactly the doors? This might work in Asia, but in other countries?


the metro in DC stops at precisely the same spot in the station every time.  it is required to do so, even when there aren't sliding doors.  otherwise blind passengers wouldn't be able to find the door every day.  they already do this.
 
2013-01-03 11:10:41 AM  

give me doughnuts: I blame the crazy woman that pushed him.


She was just saving us. That guy could have been trying to nuke the underground.
 
2013-01-03 11:53:10 AM  

SlothB77: oMaJoJ: TommyJReed: When I was in Singapore I traveled by subway quite a bit and I think the system they use is very good. Other then cost I see no reason we shouldn't start implementing something like this in NYC:
[upload.wikimedia.org image 800x600]

Money and logistics

the company is offering to install the sliding doors at no charge:

Crown Infrastructure offered the MTA a seeming win-win: The company would build the sliding doors on platforms, providing a new level of safety for riders, plus a reduction in track fires and noise.  In exchange, Crown would keep all the revenue from advertising on the high-tech portals.


Who will pay for maintenance and upkeep? I think we all know the answer to that...
 
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