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(Talking Points Memo)   Did the Democrats just screw themselves, and to a larger extent all of us, with this fiscal deal?   (tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com) divider line 170
    More: Followup, Democrats, Vice President Joe Biden, Chuck Schumer, Democratic Caucus, healthcare reform  
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4649 clicks; posted to Politics » on 02 Jan 2013 at 9:11 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-02 08:40:10 AM  
When bad things happen because there are bad actors involved, it is appropriate to blame these bad things on the bad actors and not the good actors who somehow haven't convinced the bad actors to not be quite so bad.
 
2013-01-02 08:46:31 AM  
So this deal depends on Republicans acting like adults. And yet subby wants to blame Democrats. Go figure
 
2013-01-02 09:12:10 AM  

Peter von Nostrand: So this deal depends on Republicans acting like adults. And yet subby wants to blame Democrats. Go figure


article writer, not subby. I personally think that they may have blown a chance to not have a catastrophic fight on their hands when the Debt Limit vote comes up, but that's just me

/subby
 
2013-01-02 09:14:53 AM  

somedude210: Peter von Nostrand: So this deal depends on Republicans acting like adults. And yet subby wants to blame Democrats. Go figure

article writer, not subby. I personally think that they may have blown a chance to not have a catastrophic fight on their hands when the Debt Limit vote comes up, but that's just me

/subby


"They" being the Democrats? What actions do you think the Democrats could have taken that would have avoided that catastrophic fight, short of completely adopting the Republican proposals without change?
 
2013-01-02 09:15:23 AM  
Well, we kept insisting of electing insane nihilists to the government when we were in a fiscal inflection point.

As one blog I frequent put it: can you compromise when one part of the dinner party wants Italian, and the other part wants tire rims and anthrax?
 
2013-01-02 09:15:50 AM  
The American Public screwed themselves when they elected all these morons to Congress.
 
2013-01-02 09:18:21 AM  
If a headline can be summarized with "Yes" is the article still worth writing?
 
2013-01-02 09:20:32 AM  

hillbillypharmacist: When bad things happen because there are bad actors involved, it is appropriate to blame these bad things on the bad actors and not the good actors who somehow haven't convinced the bad actors to not be quite so bad.


If there is one adult in a room with one shrieking child that is running around breaking everything, it's little solace that the adult is facing the destruction with poise - 'being the only adult in the room' means more than simply not being the child.
 
2013-01-02 09:21:44 AM  
I think Boehner just broke the "Hastert Rule."

In the 257-167 vote late Tuesday, 172 Democrats and 85 Republicans favored the bill; 16 Democrats and 151 Republicans opposed it.
 
2013-01-02 09:22:26 AM  
There are days when I think we should just laugh and let the US government burn and take the economy with it. This is one of those days. And maybe we'll put some Galtian Overlords against the wall while we're at it.
 
2013-01-02 09:23:18 AM  
ITT: People who think the Bush tax cuts were the other thing that expired yesterday.
 
2013-01-02 09:24:02 AM  
Vice President Joe Biden had to repeatedly reassure frustrated members of his own party Monday night that President Obama and Democratic leaders will not negotiate with the GOP to raise the debt ceiling in February or March.

Does anyone believe this? Anyone?
 
2013-01-02 09:24:37 AM  

way south: If a headline can be summarized with "Yes" is the article still worth writing?


Think you meant to say "answered" friendo, because what you said makes no sense.
 
2013-01-02 09:25:21 AM  

TofuTheAlmighty: There are days when I think we should just laugh and let the US government burn and take the economy with it. This is one of those days. And maybe we'll put some Galtian Overlords against the wall while we're at it.


All I want is a life beyond Thunderdome...

/who rules Bartertown?
 
2013-01-02 09:28:52 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: Vice President Joe Biden had to repeatedly reassure frustrated members of his own party Monday night that President Obama and Democratic leaders will not negotiate with the GOP to raise the debt ceiling in February or March.

Does anyone believe this? Anyone?


Biden does, apparently.
 
2013-01-02 09:30:36 AM  

TofuTheAlmighty: There are days when I think we should just laugh and let the US government burn and take the economy with it. This is one of those days. And maybe we'll put some Galtian Overlords against the wall while we're at it.


The problem is what would rise from the ashes might just be worse than what we have now. There will still be a base of right wing-gun nutty-wealth fellating-authoritarian-religious fanatics that will make things just as bad and intractable as they are now.
 
2013-01-02 09:30:50 AM  

ramblinwreck: I think Boehner just broke the "Hastert Rule."

In the 257-167 vote late Tuesday, 172 Democrats and 85 Republicans favored the bill; 16 Democrats and 151 Republicans opposed it.


Yep. That was the big sticking point all along and Reid ultimately called out Boehner on it on Friday which resulted in the the much reported "Go FU yourself" feedback from Boehner. Eventually Boehner had to either break the Hastert Rule or hang a failed fiscal cliff vote around his neck. Neither a good solution for his speakership position but it really reflects on the poor leadership position he is in. A good portion of his own caucus apparently doesn't give a shiate about what Boehner wants to do.
 
2013-01-02 09:31:52 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: Vice President Joe Biden had to repeatedly reassure frustrated members of his own party Monday night that President Obama and Democratic leaders will not negotiate with the GOP to raise the debt ceiling in February or March.

Does anyone believe this? Anyone?


I sure as hell don't.
 
2013-01-02 09:32:32 AM  

sprawl15: HotWingConspiracy: Vice President Joe Biden had to repeatedly reassure frustrated members of his own party Monday night that President Obama and Democratic leaders will not negotiate with the GOP to raise the debt ceiling in February or March.

Does anyone believe this? Anyone?

Biden does, apparently.


I am sure it is a coincidence that the spending cut negotiations are at the same time the the debt ceiling. The Dems screwed the GOP to the wall on tax cuts and they are setting them up again it looks like.
 
2013-01-02 09:33:55 AM  

ramblinwreck: I think Boehner just broke the "Hastert Rule."

In the 257-167 vote late Tuesday, 172 Democrats and 85 Republicans favored the bill; 16 Democrats and 151 Republicans opposed it.


Good. Because this shows that a majority of Representatives are capable of doing their job. Sometimes you have to do what's best for America and ignore the tantrums, even though the tantrums are embarrassing.

And it's BS that they obey the Hastert rule - they insist that every bill be written so it will pass 100% on party lines. Not just a "majority of the majority."
 
2013-01-02 09:34:02 AM  
The next 60 days are going to be a political clusterfark that will make the last 2 years feel like a pleasant dream. Anyone in congress who wants to hold the world economy over a rain barrel gets their opportunity. Three massive issues - pushed sequestration spending issues, the continuing budget resolution, and the debt ceiling all have massive ramifications for the world economy. One side or the other digs in on any one of them and refuses to compromise (citing this yesterday's deal as their "compromise", and now it's time to "stick to principles") will send this whole thing spinning into oblivion.

We avoided going off of the cliff, but now we're approaching another one a bit higher, with a new set of characters thrown into the mix. Why they feel the need to play chicken with civilization is beyond me.
 
2013-01-02 09:34:42 AM  

Yakk: sprawl15: HotWingConspiracy: Vice President Joe Biden had to repeatedly reassure frustrated members of his own party Monday night that President Obama and Democratic leaders will not negotiate with the GOP to raise the debt ceiling in February or March.

Does anyone believe this? Anyone?

Biden does, apparently.

I am sure it is a coincidence that the spending cut negotiations are at the same time the the debt ceiling. The Dems screwed the GOP to the wall on tax cuts and they are setting them up again it looks like.


But this is kind of hoping that the GOP operates with some sense of reality or shame.
 
2013-01-02 09:35:28 AM  
This isn't the first time Obama let the Republicans fark themselves.

.
 
2013-01-02 09:36:34 AM  

ramblinwreck: I think Boehner just broke the "Hastert Rule."


Don't rat out your homies, no matter what they're doing to underage congressional pages?
 
2013-01-02 09:36:55 AM  
I'll believe the "not negotiating on the debt ceiling" thing when I see it.
 
2013-01-02 09:36:57 AM  

way south: If a headline can be summarized with "Yes" is the article still worth writing?


I don't know. You should have that discussion in a thread where that is the case.
 
2013-01-02 09:39:16 AM  
"Right now, deficits don't matter - a point borne out by all the evidence."
- Teh Krugman

So, you know, we got that going for us.
 
2013-01-02 09:40:37 AM  
I'm going to wait until near the end of Obama's term.  We'll see then what the situation has become.  I won't be surprised if it's maintaining tax cuts for the wealthy (or increasing them), and maintaining bloated "security" spending (or increasing it), along with steep cuts in social spending, raising age limits for SS, etc.  With, at most, some camoflauged rhetoric explaining how a tax cut for the wealthy is actually a tax increase, and ZOMG THREAT THREAT ZOMG, and maybe some vague promises about how we'll increase "revenue" real soon, etc.

I just don't trust these guys, any of them.

And if there is any kind of attack, even a small one, by al Qaeda?  Then forget it, it will be, to face this threat, we must slash taxes to zero, eliminate all social spending, and build 500 aircraft carriers.
 
2013-01-02 09:40:41 AM  

EyeballKid: ramblinwreck: I think Boehner just broke the "Hastert Rule."

Don't rat out your homies, no matter what they're doing to underage congressional pages?


No bill is allowed to be brought to a vote unless it has the support of a majority of the majority party. So if all the Democrats and some Republicans teamed up to push for a bill, it wouldn't matter if they had the 218 votes needed to pass it.
 
2013-01-02 09:41:47 AM  

FooDog: Yep. That was the big sticking point all along and Reid ultimately called out Boehner on it on Friday which resulted in the the much reported "Go FU yourself" feedback from Boehner. Eventually Boehner had to either break the Hastert Rule or hang a failed fiscal cliff vote around his neck. Neither a good solution for his speakership position but it really reflects on the poor leadership position he is in.


But Boner had to expect to be in that position last week when he punted and told the Senate that they are the ones who need to write and pass the bill.
 
2013-01-02 09:43:44 AM  
Obvious tag still hung over from new years?
 
2013-01-02 09:45:11 AM  
with revenues drawn into the Treasury by a measure that will incentivize people with individual retirement accounts not to defer taxation on their retirement savings

You spend two weeks off over the holidays to spend time with the kids and when I get back to reading the news I see this? How do you defer taxation on a post taxation account or how do you incentivize being taxed on your tax free disbursements to the point where it costs more than the tax brings in.
 
2013-01-02 09:47:01 AM  
I think it's gonna be difficult for the Democrats to run with this "Talking Point". It might work for the safe Democrat senators in commie states like New York and California, but the rest of the country is ready to choke off the parasites now that the war on the rich has been settled.
 
2013-01-02 09:47:24 AM  
Once you start sucking GOP dick, it's hard to stop. Just ask Obama.
 
2013-01-02 09:47:26 AM  

MayoSlather: The problem is what would rise from the ashes might just be worse than what we have now. There will still be a base of right wing-gun nutty-wealth fellating-authoritarian-religious fanatics that will make things just as bad and intractable as they are now.


The good news is that these cretins only comprise a plurality in the South. Cut those shiatheads loose; let the Confederate States of America reform. Downside to that would be not one, but now two nearly-failed states (CSA, Mexico) on the southern border.
 
2013-01-02 09:48:58 AM  
No more than the Republicans screwed themselves by voting for the largest tax increases ever approved by a Republican vote. Without any spending cuts!

Baaahaaahahahahahahahahahaha.

Cantor? Gone. Boehner? Gone. McConnell? Gone. I bet Jim DeMint wishes he wasn't working at the Heritage Foundation now.
 
2013-01-02 09:49:03 AM  

sprawl15: EyeballKid: ramblinwreck: I think Boehner just broke the "Hastert Rule."

Don't rat out your homies, no matter what they're doing to underage congressional pages?

No bill is allowed to be brought to a vote unless it has the support of a majority of the majority party. So if all the Democrats and some Republicans teamed up to push for a bill, it wouldn't matter if they had the 218 votes needed to pass it.


Who is to say Boehner did not have the votes lined up and Cantor backstabed him again... kinda of a unenforcable rule if you ask me.
 
2013-01-02 09:52:41 AM  
Basically, yes.
 
2013-01-02 09:53:15 AM  
Only thing they got going for them is a new House to work on it with lot less Teatards and more Dems then before...

Hopefully the GOP is learning something and hopefully Obama gives more speeches on how retarded they are if they behave like it.
 
2013-01-02 09:53:31 AM  

Khellendros: The next 60 days are going to be a political clusterfark that will make the last 2 years feel like a pleasant dream. Anyone in congress who wants to hold the world economy over a rain barrel gets their opportunity. Three massive issues - pushed sequestration spending issues, the continuing budget resolution, and the debt ceiling all have massive ramifications for the world economy. One side or the other digs in on any one of them and refuses to compromise (citing this yesterday's deal as their "compromise", and now it's time to "stick to principles") will send this whole thing spinning into oblivion.

We avoided going off of the cliff, but now we're approaching another one a bit higher, with a new set of characters thrown into the mix. Why they feel the need to play chicken with civilization is beyond me.


That's what terrorists do. What did you expect?
 
2013-01-02 09:53:37 AM  
Ah, the debt ceiling is still concerning to folks. That means the president must still be black.

Where were these folks in 2001-2008? Oh, cheering it on, right.
 
2013-01-02 09:53:47 AM  

Saiga410: Who is to say Boehner did not have the votes lined up and Cantor backstabed him again... kinda of a unenforcable rule if you ask me.


It was 85 yea and 151 nea among the GOP. It wasn't even close.

Of course, the 'rule' is just more an informal thing that Republican speakers choose to do - it's a principle that they elect to follow. Kind of like Norquist's pledge.
 
2013-01-02 09:55:14 AM  
With the Republican House searching for new and innovative ways to embarrass itself, I'm thinking the next two months will be a lot of hot air before they implode just like they did this past month. The Republicans have only a 33 member majority come Thursday. That's a razor thin majority and they need to be monolithic in their approach to hold any leverage in the legislative process. If we've seen anything in the past month it's that Boehner can't control his majority to act in the party's best interest, let alone the American people's.

The House Republicans are so fractured and divided they can posture tremendously about the debt ceiling but won't be able to do a thing about it. They best they can do is nothing, at which point they take sole blame for any fiasco that ensues. Only 17 sane Republicans will be needed to avert that come Thursday. They certainly cannot pass their own legislation without the help of Democrats any longer.

So, no, the Democrats are not getting screwed by the debt ceiling. If anything it's a boon. The American public gets reminded AGAIN in two months that the Republicans in the House of Representatives are inept. Obama knows this and wants everyone reminded of it constantly.
 
2013-01-02 09:55:23 AM  
Debt Ceiling looks like a relatively easy fight for the Democrats:

Keep paying the bills for programs already approved by Congress and make the Republicans prove they can stop them

or

Abide by the 'debt ceiling' and drop the whole thing in Boehner's lap, refusing to take it up in the Senate until a clean bill raising or, better, abolitioning this fictional obstacle.

If the GOP wants to let the country go bankrupt for not paying its bills, don't get in their way.  Let them deal with the consequences at the polls in 2014.
 
2013-01-02 09:56:24 AM  

HotWingConspiracy: Yakk: sprawl15: HotWingConspiracy: Vice President Joe Biden had to repeatedly reassure frustrated members of his own party Monday night that President Obama and Democratic leaders will not negotiate with the GOP to raise the debt ceiling in February or March.

Does anyone believe this? Anyone?

Biden does, apparently.

I am sure it is a coincidence that the spending cut negotiations are at the same time the the debt ceiling. The Dems screwed the GOP to the wall on tax cuts and they are setting them up again it looks like.

But this is kind of hoping that the GOP operates with some sense of reality or shame.


Well that's the question isn't it? The problem for them is the one time they (GOP) did well in negotiating, the last fiscal cliff deal, was because they lied and said they would not make an issue of it and the Dems had zero leverage at the time. This complete shafting looks to be payback for that and putting the cuts at the same time as the cliff negotiations means the Dems learned their lesson from the last time.

Your point is well taken though, the GOP base might go berserk and declare a holy war today and then all bets are off in two months.
 
2013-01-02 09:56:34 AM  

TheOther: abolitioning


Good Lord...more coffee!
 
2013-01-02 09:57:14 AM  

ghare: Khellendros: The next 60 days are going to be a political clusterfark that will make the last 2 years feel like a pleasant dream. Anyone in congress who wants to hold the world economy over a rain barrel gets their opportunity. Three massive issues - pushed sequestration spending issues, the continuing budget resolution, and the debt ceiling all have massive ramifications for the world economy. One side or the other digs in on any one of them and refuses to compromise (citing this yesterday's deal as their "compromise", and now it's time to "stick to principles") will send this whole thing spinning into oblivion.

We avoided going off of the cliff, but now we're approaching another one a bit higher, with a new set of characters thrown into the mix. Why they feel the need to play chicken with civilization is beyond me.

That's what terrorists do. What did you expect?


Terrorists never give up all their hostages. No negotiation with terrorists.
 
2013-01-02 09:57:18 AM  
Probably not.

The GOP looks even weaker and more out of touch today than they did yesterday. They still have zero leverage, will continue to fight with themselves, and still look like a bunch of assholes more concerned about the wealthiest Americans' well-being than that of the average American.

I guess we'll see in the coming weeks and months.
 
2013-01-02 10:01:14 AM  
yes
 
2013-01-02 10:01:18 AM  
I seriously wish we had just gone over the fiscal cliff and gotten it over with. Decreased spending, increased taxes and maybe we can start working this debt down. And as far as the republicans acting looked children, it takes two to tango.
 
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