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(CNN)   Will Republicans remember to come into work today? Will Nancy Pelosi bite anyone? Will John Boehner replace his gavel with a whiskey bottle? It's your "House of Representatives fiscal cliff vote" thread (House starts their session at noon today)   (politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com) divider line 262
    More: Interesting, a.m. ET  
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2164 clicks; posted to Politics » on 01 Jan 2013 at 12:00 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
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Archived thread
2013-01-01 11:38:43 AM  
8 votes:

Therion: Another dumb question, dumb question, dumb question, "It's your!" declarative statement Fark headline, and people wonder why political discussions are treated like sports?


Because this is CSPAN's version of WWE and MLP:FiM.

*sigh* Will the Koch Brothers let it through, or will the Tea Party use their boomsticks to kill it?

Stupid, ignorant single-minded assholes need to be slapped repeatedly to snap out of it. It's not the black guy. It's the rich guys screwing you over.
2013-01-01 04:29:11 PM  
7 votes:

kingflower: Issa on CNN just implied that the Senate was drunk and partying when they passed the bill to avoid the fiscal cliff....This is what Obama is dealing with. Over the cliff we go!!!


Technically we're already over and trying to pull on a parachute, but one of our hands keeps punching us in the face and complaining about how much we're spending on parachutes. It's been that way for 4 years now.
2013-01-01 11:58:09 AM  
6 votes:
I'm actually tired of this being the status quo:
thinkprogress.org
2013-01-01 11:43:59 AM  
5 votes:
Anyone else actually hoping for more Boehner incompetence?  Kicking this thing down the road two months so the GOP can lump it into the debt ceiling and we can do that again is 15 different kinds of bad.  Biden all but guaranteed that we'll have to deal with demands for spending cuts for passing the debt ceiling.

This deal needs to die.
2013-01-01 05:02:35 PM  
4 votes:

Zeno-25: dumbobruni: stiletto_the_wise: GoldSpider: 2. How do we encourage businesses to hire?

Mandate a 30 hour work day? At some point we're going to have to accept that there are more workers out there than there is (full-time) work to do.

there are over 3 million unfilled jobs in America, and a bunch of industries ranging from manufacturing to financial services to construction are whining about "skills/staffing shortages".

It's almost as if they might have to *gasp* invest in their workforce and train new hires on the job. You know, like they used to do.


Well, that's a slippery slope that might lead to expectations of benefits and a wage higher than your average fruit picker. Next thing you know, people will want time off for vacations or family emergencies.

Easier just to write a fakery job posting custom tailored for the h1b candidate you already picked out and started training on the DL. Stack ten of them in an apartment making frenchfry wages, let them get deported when you are done.

Easy peasy.
2013-01-01 03:56:05 PM  
4 votes:

HeadLever: Yep, only government can bail us out.


When you spend 30 years systematically destroying the private sector's mechanism (unions) for keeping income inequality in check, there's no one left but the government to step in and attempt to do so.

The middle class is not overtaxed, it is underpaid.
2013-01-01 03:00:20 PM  
4 votes:

HeadLever: hasty ambush: [www.zerohedge.com image 362x1500]

Exactly. Add in 4 times this much with actual spending cuts, (not 33 billion in increases) and we may actually have a good first step.

Right now, it is pretty much more of the same - rearranging the deck chairs.


The debt and deficit are not our current problem.

I want to repeat that, for the benefit of all:

The debt and deficit are not our current problem.

They are distractions. They are distractions used by the right and center right (which is to say, every Republican, and about 80% of Democrats including the President) to create a sense of urgency. Spending needs to continue in the short-term in order to get the economy back in order. Only after that's done--only after unemployment is back below ~6%, and growth is above ~2% yearly, should we think about cutting the deficit and debt. Why, you ask?

Because if we start cutting them now by imposing huge spending cuts, in the long term the debt will increase even more due to a continued sagging economy.

But politicians on both sides only care about short-term fixes; it's one of the problems with our election system, rather than an actual problem with either party.

The ultra-far-right, and the people that vote for them, rely not on economic realities, but fear of the deficit, as if deficit spending were the worst thing ever to happen. Deficit spending is necessary in times of low economic growth or contraction. Get the economy back in order, then further raise taxes on the middle and upper classes, and start cutting spending.
2013-01-01 12:36:29 PM  
4 votes:

stiletto_the_wise: Exactly. As the D's compromise and compromise, the R's will keep moving their baseline position farther and farther to the right. I've never seen a group of people who are as good at taking a strong bargaining position and turning it into weakness as the Democrats.


I don't know how many times this has to be said: Nothing is official until the President signs a bill.  To this point, the Tea Party caucus in the House has scuttled every deal put before them, even by their own leadership.  If that stays true to form, Obama can offer any concessions he wants without fear of consequence.  If the Tea Party accepts the deal, Obama gets a decent bill and some grumbling from the liberal caucus.  If the Tea Party kills the deal, we officially go off the cliff and Obama can put the screws to them.  It's win-win for the Democrats.  Yes, I would like to see a better deal that doesn't involve going off the cliff, but this is politics.  Comparing this mess to the health care debacle and it's clear that Obama has learned something about dealing with the Tea Party and how to turn their own rage against them.  Save your outrage for whatever bill is actually signed into law, not for unofficial deals that stand a good chance of failing once they hit the House.
2013-01-01 12:31:57 PM  
4 votes:

Waxing_Chewbacca: stiletto_the_wise: Raises taxes only on the super-rich, but leaves the rich making $250K-$400K untouched. Thanks for sticking with your principles, spineless Democrats. You could have just run out the clock but you caved.

150k difference isn't worth it in the grand scheme. This is a decent deal. The economy can't take more of this BS. Compromise means you aren't entirely satisfied. Pass the bill and tackle the remaining issues one at a time.


"Aren't entirely satisfied?" $250k IS a huge compromise in my eyes; it's off by an order of magnitude. Raise taxes down to $25k of income for a single person. The really poor wouldn't be affected at all, the lower middle class would only be affected on a small portion of their salary, which wouldn't result in much of a dollar difference, and if they can survive on it, people above it wouldn't be starving to death either.
2013-01-01 12:18:30 PM  
4 votes:
Who's the republican strategist on cnbc crying about all those small business owners with 400k income that will be crushed with new taxes and unable to hire new workers or expand their business?

And how goddamn stupid are these fictional small business owners that they are seemingly avoiding tax write offs related to business expansion to pay for shiat out of their personal income?
2013-01-01 12:06:31 PM  
4 votes:
What a depressing topic. All I can think of is to quote Digby:

Many on the left live in a fantasy in which poor and middle-class white Republicans dwell in a world of false consciousness, simply failing to understand the degree to which Republican politicians betray them and their interests. The truth is far more disturbing: the people in these districts, particularly the ones who vote in Republican primaries, know precisely what their representatives are doing and what they stand for. They like it, and continue to vote for representatives even farther to the right year after year. Half of Republicans believe ACORN (read, black government workers) stole the election for Obama. 44% of Republicans either want to secede or simply aren't sure. Self-described conservatives were 14 percentage points more likely to want to a buy a gun after the Sandy Hook massacre than not.

No matter what Obama does, Republicans won't care and won't fold.

That's what we're up against, folks. Anyone thinking the Republicans are going to be reasonable on anything is taking a sucker bet.
2013-01-01 11:44:09 AM  
4 votes:
I really wish someone could get these morons to understand that doing something is better than doing nothing.  Any partial fix is better than making the whole mess worse.  Right now is not the time to worry about getting your unicorns and rainbows, it's time to get out of the rain.

There are just too many issues in the budget to lump them all in one place and fix with one swipe.  Its going to take time, they need to accept that and fix the easy things first.   Then they can sit back and argue about how many more tanks to buy that we don't need.   Maybe prioritize the order that they tackle the issues by the order of how they impact the country/economy.

The house strikes me to be a petulant child that is breaking all of their new toys just because they didn't get that special Nerf gun that they wanted for Christmas.
2013-01-01 05:36:42 PM  
3 votes:
Republicans are economic terrorists.
2013-01-01 04:30:57 PM  
3 votes:

jocutus: kingflower: Issa on CNN just implied that the Senate was drunk and partying when they passed the bill to avoid the fiscal cliff....This is what Obama is dealing with. Over the cliff we go!!!

Technically we're already over and trying to pull on a parachute, but one of our hands keeps punching us in the face and complaining about how much we're spending on parachutes. It's been that way for 4 years now.


That's the greatest analogy in the history of the English language.
2013-01-01 04:03:40 PM  
3 votes:

HeadLever: Corvus: Yes Medicare & SS is a seperate budget which currently have positive money (that are all IOUs because it was borrowed from the main budget).

?

SS is running at a deficit. Positive? Not sure what you are talking about here. The trust fund is not a pot of money but another sector of Government debt. Nothing positive about it.


Eliminate the cap.

Solved.
2013-01-01 03:55:58 PM  
3 votes:

GoldSpider: 1. What cuts do you attribute to the slow growth?


Consistant reductions in government employment has been a big hit:

thinkprogress.org

GoldSpider: 2. How do we encourage businesses to hire?


Increase demand.
2013-01-01 03:47:54 PM  
3 votes:

HeadLever: LazarusLong42: The debt and deficit are not our current problem.

I'll disagree. When the interest on the debt eats up about 20% of the entire federal tax revenue (and remember how low interest rates are currently), it is a huge problem. only those that have no clue are the ones that pretend that this is not a problem. Just imagine what will happen to this cost when interest rates normalize. While i'll agree that it is not the biggest problem in the short term, it is THE most serious long term problems that we currently face as a country and that small changes right now have huge implications for future generations. Kicking that can down the road isn't going to work for much longer.

The economy has found a footing. It is not a great one, but we need to start looking to the long term sooner rather than later. Propping up short term bubbles while sacrificing long term fiscal security is not something that most want us to see.


And austerity measures are certain to put a stop to the slow recovery we're enjoying now.
2013-01-01 03:17:37 PM  
3 votes:
Serious, these people are asses!!

Obama: Here is a compromise, is this ok?

Bohener (and house GOP): No, screw you we will write our own bill.

[writes own bill]

Bohener (and house GOP): Umm we don't like our own bill. Senate you have to write us a bi-partisan bill and we will then vote on it!

Senate: Wow that's hard, but we did it! Here it is.

Bohener (and house GOP): No! we don't want this either!!!


Ok so they don't like the Presidents bill, they don't like the Senates bill, the don't even like THEIR OWN bill. It seems to me there is no one left for Bohener and the house Republicans to pass the buck to anymore.

Might as well just send everyone home and dive off the fiscal cliff then.
2013-01-01 03:03:31 PM  
3 votes:

hasty ambush: HeadLever: GAT_00: By the way, CBO says this will cost $3.5T (warning, PDF) over the next 10 years.

That ought to stall House GOP support.

Yeah, this bill does have a good start on the tax side, but the spending side is atrocious. Unless you like more debt.


/one step forward, one step back.

[www.zerohedge.com image 362x1500]


Really the system of debt is untenable for the entire world. Capitalism will crumble before we ever approach financial health. We live in a technology rich world with the most efficient means to produce goods and services that humanity has ever known and somehow it's not enough for us not to be in debt. Unless real big changes are made to the fed, treasury, and banking system we are farked.

Slightly raising taxes on the rich and some reduced spending are band-aids on gaping wounds. And cutting entitlements will only serve to create more man made poverty.
2013-01-01 01:54:38 PM  
3 votes:

LouDobbsAwaaaay: dumbobruni: in other news, the House of Representatives has no significance, and filibusters don't exist in the Senate.

Explain how the House or Senate, using filibusters or not using them, could stop the fiscal cliff from being enacted today, or stop the Dems from flogging the GOP with bills to cut taxes on the bottom 98% afterward. Be specific.


The problem is Obama I think actually cares more about the American people than to make political gain. You seem to consider that a weakness.
2013-01-01 01:33:19 PM  
3 votes:
The Democrats should all vote "present" and let the Republicans take full responsibility. It would be hilarious.
2013-01-01 12:15:36 PM  
3 votes:

Waxing_Chewbacca: 150k difference isn't worth it in the grand scheme. This is a decent deal. The economy can't take more of this BS. Compromise means you aren't entirely satisfied. Pass the bill and tackle the remaining issues one at a time.


I guess it's the unspoken message: "We're keeping taxes low on the middle class!" Now, pundits can argue that $250K-$400K is now suddenly part of the middle class. At 250-260 working days a year, $250K-$400K is $961-$1600 A DAY. Folks, these are not middle class tax cuts. They're tax cuts for the rich, and now Democrats have made it part of their OFFER.
2013-01-01 12:07:21 PM  
3 votes:

mayIFark: So, even if it passes, my taxes went up for a day? I pay at one rate for 364 days and a different rate for a day?


Are you one of those sooper-rich CEO bastards who have already made $400,000 in the first hours of the new year?
2013-01-01 11:34:14 AM  
3 votes:
If the House doesn't pass it by tomorrow morning, then the stock market is open and it'll spook the market.
2013-01-01 11:17:22 AM  
3 votes:
Another dumb question, dumb question, dumb question, "It's your!" declarative statement Fark headline, and people wonder why political discussions are treated like sports?
2013-01-01 09:04:12 PM  
2 votes:
JohnnyC:  Isn't that entirely backwards? They're supposed to originate in the House. I really don't get how this is supposed to go the other way. Can anyone explain why it's alright for this to go Senate to House to President?

If it passes, the understanding is that the House will not invoke that particular prerogative, called a "blue slip."
2013-01-01 07:46:16 PM  
2 votes:

Waxing_Chewbacca: Thread jack:

I'm having an awful time responding to posts using my iPad.  Hasn't happened before these last few days.  Do I have a setting off?  iPhone is fine but that is using mobile.


My biggest issue is accidentally hitting the goddamned farking post time stamp, which for no goddamn apparent reason is a link that just farks you in the ass only to pull out and spooge on your face, forever farking up your following of the thread.
2013-01-01 07:31:49 PM  
2 votes:

red5ish: Once the tax cuts expire the Republicans will have no leverage at all. They will be in the position of asking for tax cuts and having to make concessions to get them. I wouldn't be surprised to see the debt ceiling threat given up in the negotiations.


I'm not sure about the last sentence, but otherwise I agree. Its not the President who has lost leverage here. Its clearly the Republican side. Obama campaigned on a wider tax increase than this one and got re-elected. Once the markets crash and milk goes to $8 a gallon everything will get even more real...very quickly.
2013-01-01 07:16:42 PM  
2 votes:
Once the tax cuts expire the Republicans will have no leverage at all. They will be in the position of asking for tax cuts and having to make concessions to get them. I wouldn't be surprised to see the debt ceiling threat given up in the negotiations.
2013-01-01 06:50:42 PM  
2 votes:

Infernalist: The Democrats have successfully managed to turn the GOP lock-step group-think, their greatest strength, into a weakness to be exploited. Color me impressed.


Goodbye Tea Party.

i1282.photobucket.com
2013-01-01 06:01:41 PM  
2 votes:

Somacandra: dumbobruni: there are over 3 million unfilled jobs in America, and a bunch of industries ranging from manufacturing to financial services to construction are whining about "skills/staffing shortages".

People have to have certain skill sets and they have to live where the jobs that require those skill sets are. That's a lot.


or companies could offer more money.

from the noted commies at Wharton Business School, regarding those 600,000 unfilled manufacturing jobs:

Despite the dire outlook, some say there's a relatively simple way to defuse the sector's talent bomb. Peter Cappelli, for one, likens manufacturers' talent complaints to shopping for a car, not finding the vehicle you want within your budget-and then concluding there's a car shortage. "If you want to get people into a particular field, you might start by paying them more," says Mr. Cappelli, director of the Center for Human Resources at the University of Pennsylvania's Wharton School. "Or make the training more attractive and easier to do."

Link
2013-01-01 05:58:21 PM  
2 votes:
So now the Republicans have painted themselves in a corner. They made it so raising any income taxes is treason to their ideology and then forced themselves into a situation where they will have to compromise on raising income taxes.

They didn't even just pain themselves in a corner, they painted themselves in a corner a then started a time bomb in that corner.
2013-01-01 05:05:59 PM  
2 votes:

ariseatex: Brit Hume @brithume
Appears the House GOP's pie-in-the-sky caucus will blow up the deal, leaving new higher tax rates in place and assuring Rs get all blame.

Guess they've lost Fox News.



House Republicans have basically painted themselves into a corner. They pandered to the base with two things, taxes are too high and Obama bad. Now, they've encountered a situation where A.) They do something that Obama agrees with, or B.) They go on record for allowing or voting in favor of the tax rates going up.

They're in a can't win situation, so they're stalling the vote, hoping the problem will go away on its own.
2013-01-01 04:55:18 PM  
2 votes:

neongoats: LazarusLong42: Infernalist: DamnYankees: Matt Yglesias  @mattyglesias
Senate GOP is lawful evil, House GOP is chaotic evil.

Does this mean that Obama is a Paladin?

Obama is Chaotic Good. Tries to do great stuff but never afraid to troll the other side (or break with his own side) when the necessity arises.

I disagree, Obama isn't anti-authoritarian enough to be chaotic. neutral-good perhaps. I might call good ol Joe Biden as chaotic-good. Bill Clinton for sure.


I put Obama at true neutral, with an emphasis on preservation and continuity, since he's essentially an America Druid. Biden's CG, Hillary is LN.
2013-01-01 04:55:10 PM  
2 votes:

dumbobruni: stiletto_the_wise: GoldSpider: 2. How do we encourage businesses to hire?

Mandate a 30 hour work day? At some point we're going to have to accept that there are more workers out there than there is (full-time) work to do.

there are over 3 million unfilled jobs in America, and a bunch of industries ranging from manufacturing to financial services to construction are whining about "skills/staffing shortages".


It's almost as if they might have to *gasp* invest in their workforce and train new hires on the job. You know, like they used to do.
2013-01-01 04:32:13 PM  
2 votes:

TV's Vinnie: The Teabaggers who lost the election are just trying to wreck the country because they're butthurt little crybabies who still cannot fathom the fact that most of the country is disgusted with them.


Almost every individual tea partier in Congress actually won their election. The GOP only lost 8 seats. This is part of the problem.
2013-01-01 04:31:16 PM  
2 votes:
i45.tinypic.com
TEABAGGERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRS!

Seriously. The Teabaggers who lost the election are just trying to wreck the country because they're butthurt little crybabies who still cannot fathom the fact that most of the country is disgusted with them.

Just wait for these fired farksticks to be out of office later this month, and THEN begin the fiscal curb and budget ceiling talks once there are more Democrats sworn in.
2013-01-01 04:23:10 PM  
2 votes:

hasty ambush: During the 1990s alone Japan tried 10 fiscal stimulus packages totaling more than 100 trillion yen, and each failed to end the recession


Does Japan own the currency that the world's most important commodity is priced in? No? They don't have the US Dollar? Well, then maybe you shouldn't be f*cking comparing us to them. It makes about as much sense as when Republican Politicians say America will become the next Greece. Greece has a Reserve Currency? Really?

Until you people understand the US economy and the mechanisms we have, you should probably stop pretending you know what the f*ck you're talking about.
2013-01-01 04:11:20 PM  
2 votes:

HeadLever: Corvus: Yes Medicare & SS is a seperate budget which currently have positive money (that are all IOUs because it was borrowed from the main budget).

?

SS is running at a deficit. Positive? Not sure what you are talking about here. The trust fund is not a pot of money but another sector of Government debt. Nothing positive about it.


ummm


According to the Social Security Trustees, who oversee the program and report on its financial condition, program costs are expected to exceed non-interest income from 2011 onward. However, due to interest (earned at a 4.4% rate in 2011) the program will run an overall surplus that adds to the fund through the end of 2021.

. At the end of 2011, the Trust Fund contained (or alternatively, was owed) $2.7 trillion, up $69 billion from 2010.[1]


You are wrong. and it's funny because I know you being wrong about this point that you think was so important will not change your mind.

It has 2.7 trillion. Yes it will still need to be adjusted like I said in the future. The problem is government has been borrowing from it and Republicans don't want to give the money back because they want to steal it for tax cuts for the rich.
2013-01-01 04:02:59 PM  
2 votes:

evil saltine: GoldSpider: How do we encourage businesses to hire?

Taxcuts for the "job creators". Wealthy people like to invest willy-nilly in creating jobs for which there are no demand.


And when a "job creator" buys things for their business or hires someone that money is then not taxed. Costs for businesses are deducted, so the whole argument is just plain stupid.
2013-01-01 03:57:03 PM  
2 votes:

HeadLever: Corvus: You said their should be NO GROWTH.

Nope. I don't mind growth in nominal dollars as this is needed for inflation and population growth. The issue that we all have is with programs that exceed the growth of GDP which are Medicare, SS and Interest on the Debt.


Yes Medicare & SS is a seperate budget which currently have positive money (that are all IOUs because it was borrowed from the main budget). Something will need to be done in a DECADE OR TWO or wither raise the taxes on these or change the benefits.

Clinton wanted to use the Clinton surplus on shoring up these accounts. Bush however made tax cuts spent that money (1.6 trillion (and counting)) and then plunged our economy down the shiatter (600 billion) and started two expensive wars (over 1 trillion and counting).

Obama is bring most of these highly expensive Bush spending down but it will take time.
2013-01-01 03:50:08 PM  
2 votes:

HeadLever: Corvus: You said their should be NO GROWTH.

Nope. I don't mind growth in nominal dollars as this is needed for inflation and population growth. The issue that we all have is with programs that exceed the growth of GDP which are Medicare, SS and Interest on the Debt.


May have something to do with a recession that is slow to recover due to huge government spending cuts and businesses that no longer create jobs despite record profits.
2013-01-01 03:49:01 PM  
2 votes:

jocutus: I take Cantor's rejection of the bill in front of his Republican colleagues as a declaration for his candidacy as Speaker of the House.


I for one would like to re-welcome Speaker Nancy Pelosi.
2013-01-01 03:48:50 PM  
2 votes:

HeadLever: Kuroshin: So it's been trending downward, after Bush II's spending spree?  imokaywiththis.jpg

Me too, but the trend is tenuous. Look at this bill for a perfect example. It actually contains spending increases. And if you look at Bush's years, Obama is far above his average (yes, it is not all of his fault, however, it is all our problem). See the overall spending pattern in the Chart 9 where it dips some before continuing to climb at an exponential pace? That is what I am worried about.


Right but as we have pointed out to you time and time again but you keep ignoring it because it doesn't fit your dogma, putting in a austerity program now will only make matters worse.

The recession is a BIG reason why those numbers shot up. I know telling you this hundreds of times won't make you get it because it goes against your dogma but it's true.

You keep putting your fingers in your ears about that.
2013-01-01 03:43:17 PM  
2 votes:

HeadLever: Corvus: You are aware that the countries population increases every year which does increase the need for government spending? Is that lost on you?

Nope, but the increase in population is about 1% a year. My take in spending increases is per GDP, which accounts for this (and inflation).

[factcheck.org image 502x389]


You changed the subject. You said their should be NO GROWTH. Now you admit government DOES in general need to increase.

I NEVER said it's growing ONLY at the rate of population increase. My point was that you claim that government shouldn't grow at all is stupid because it should.

And GDP is not population either so your chart has no bearing at all to my point.


We've explained things to you many time already and you seem to ignore anytime someone points out your assumptions are wrong.

By the way did you notice your chart shows spending went DOWN (as a percent of GDP) which disproves another of your simpleton statements you pretended to be a truism earlier.
2013-01-01 03:41:33 PM  
2 votes:
Ross Douthat  @DouthatNYT
Seems like superdupermajority for Sen. bill could be emboldening House Rs. "If so many Dems voted 'yes' at 450K, why not try them at 750K?"
2013-01-01 03:38:32 PM  
2 votes:
Holy shiat, I step away for a few hours and the whole place catches fire.

As I understand it, the House took the Senate bill from last night, took a big steaming dump on it and sent it back to the Senate to be approved with that steaming shiat all over it?

Is that a correct short assessment of the current situation?
2013-01-01 03:28:23 PM  
2 votes:

Dusk-You-n-Me: Corvus: One reason our deficit shot up was because of losing revenue because people are out of work and are on getting government aid.

Ayup.


The deficit ballooned in 2009 because of the Great Recession. It knocked so many people out of work that tax revenues dropped to the lowest share of the economy in over sixty years. (The Bush tax cuts on the rich also reduced revenues.) The recession also boosted government spending on a stimulus program and on safety nets like unemployment insurance and food stamps.

But as the nation slowly emerges from recession, more people are employed - generating more tax revenues, and requiring less spending on safety nets and stimulus. That's why the deficit is shrinking.  Link


Yes but this pisses off Republicans because their dogma is the helping people out of a tough spot doesn't help everyone else. Their dogma is that you "punish" poor because they are not boot strapy enough.

It's like protestant beliefs turned into economics. Rich people are like people in heaven. They are the good and should be rewarded poor people are the evil and must be punished.
2013-01-01 03:21:41 PM  
2 votes:
2013-01-01 03:21:14 PM  
2 votes:
Biden Leaves Dems Meeting

At 2:06 p.m. Tuesday, Biden swept out of back door of a Democratic caucus meeting about the fiscal cliff deal without giving any concrete indication of what had gone on in an hour and a half of talking and answering questions.

I asked him if he had the votes and he said, "you're an old hand and you know that I never predict the vote." I asked him what the most effective argument was that he had made and he said, "you'll have to ask the members that."

He smiled the usual Biden sincerely frozen grimace and added, "I'm a 'foreign policy expert!' Why am I here doing this?"

Then he disappeared up the escalator surrounded by a cloud of aides and security officers.

-- Howard Fineman

Source
2013-01-01 03:20:22 PM  
2 votes:

HeadLever: Once established, government spending rarely ever is reduced.


Budget Control Act. $1.5T cuts in spending in exchange for no tax increases, signed by Obama.
2013-01-01 02:22:27 PM  
2 votes:

stiletto_the_wise: uksocal: Does this deal create a new tax bracket? I THOUGHT the highest bracket started at 200/250, but there's now that one and the 400/450 one? In the long game, that actually could be advantageous, you've now split up the top 2% into more rational brackets.

It's only more rational if you take advantage of that new bracket to really crank up the tax rate. As it stands, we're talking the difference between 35% and 39%. Yawn. Call me when we're back to post-WW2 top rates of over 90%. Apparently the holy Job Creators did just fine even at that tax rate.


here is what frustrates the hell out of me. Ask any rich person which rather you have? a 3% tax increase on your top rates OR the stock market plunging because of economic uncertainty.

Any rich person with half a brain would take the 3% tax rate. I could understand if these people were doing this for selfish reasons but it's more about ideological dogma because these fights are not in the best interest of the rich.
2013-01-01 02:14:45 PM  
2 votes:

Corvus: The problem is Obama I think actually cares more about the American people than to make political gain. You seem to consider that a weakness.


That's what I think too.  From a purely Machiavellian standpoint, going off the cliff is probably the best option.  The problem is that it will have real consequences for average Americans (including me) and there is a risk of political blow back for the Democrats if we go back into a recession, particularly since the Dems will be on the defensive in the 2014 Senate elections.  I think Obama would rather get a deal that avoids the cliff but I also think he's prepared to go off of it if the Tea Party revolts again.  That's why I'm taking a wait and see approach to all of this.  There are just too many variable in play right now to say whether the current deal is the best deal or not.
2013-01-01 02:00:10 PM  
2 votes:
And to prove my point that those on the right hate that the GOP is voting for this, look at this thread.

How many of the right wing derp squad are in this thread? almost none.

When they are really pissed the hide, just like on election night.
2013-01-01 01:54:55 PM  
2 votes:

dumbobruni: the GOP has shown stubborn indifference to popular opinion. and thanks to gerrymandering, they can easily maintain control no matter how unpopular they become.


I think this pisses me off more than anything. WHY IS THIS OK!?!? Why are they allowed to do this?! I thought gerrymandering was illegal.
2013-01-01 01:42:06 PM  
2 votes:
What I think is total bullshiat are these "poison pills" congress seems to need to pass in order to threaten them into doing their job. Whether it is the farm bill, debt limit, or this stupid ass "fiscal cliff"; it is us who have to face the worse of the consequences. Not those goobers in congress or the ultra-wealthy who basically own them. I would like to see some law passed to where any "poison pill" legislation designed to force them to do their jobs should only have direct consequences on them. Instead of tanking the economy for everyone, how about the consequences be they lose their right to run for re-election as well as any congressional seat in the future and a forfeiture of their congressional pension. Since this fiasco is basically due to their incompetence at doing their jobs, and if they can't do it all of them should be fired. Get them out of there and bring in people who actually have the guts to make the decisions they were elected to make.
2013-01-01 01:35:54 PM  
2 votes:

DamnYankees: saintstryfe: Maybe because today shouldn't be a day for dealing with far-reaching fiscal policy, but instead to just fix this whole taxing-the-middle-class thing?

In other words, you're making exactly our point. He gave up his leverage. By using this deal to just deal with the taxes, he took away the one piece of leverage he had over the GOP. When they now negotiate over spending in March, he has absolutely nothing to hit the GOP with.


Sure he does. He has the military cuts. The GOP doesn't want the military cuts.
2013-01-01 01:26:51 PM  
2 votes:

LouDobbsAwaaaay: Obama should have been flogging them with that scenario from day-1,


Remember when Obama criticizes any Republican they get upset and threaten to throw the US down the tubes to just to spite Obama. They just did this yesterday threatening not to make a deal because Obama upset them because he criticized them. Because Republicans have NEVER criticized Obama.

They are children and it amazes me that the people are afraid to point it out.
2013-01-01 01:22:31 PM  
2 votes:

LouDobbsAwaaaay: Who gives a shiat what the GOP was offering? They had no leverage in the negotiation, short of what Obama simply pretended they had. His (and your) insistence that the GOP should expect to get a single thing out of this is what makes him the worst negotiator ever.


You remind me of the guys on Pawn Stars who insist that their velvet Elvis is worth $5000 and then are shocked when Rick offers them $50.
2013-01-01 01:20:14 PM  
2 votes:
Is anyone watching the House live stream? ( Link )

Instead of dealing with the fiscal cliff legislation, the republicans have dropped a random, un-discussed bill to further freeze the pay of federal workers. Now they are talking about naming a post offices.

CAN WE GET ON WITH IT !!111!11
2013-01-01 01:08:36 PM  
2 votes:
Aaannnd republicans and republicanism shiatting on Americas chest in ...3 ...2 ...1

Seriously, you people are the problem with America. All you need to to figure out the GOP position on any given issue is to close your eyes and imagine "hmmm how would Sauron approach this", and you can be sure that's the choice they make. I swear, it literally works for everything.

Bunch of pants shiatting cowards.
2013-01-01 01:06:42 PM  
2 votes:

rohar: Tax legislation cannot be retroactive.


So you are trying to tell us this bill is for 2014?

/hint: it's not. it will change 2013 and even 2012 tax code. That is retroactive.
2013-01-01 12:50:50 PM  
2 votes:

TofuTheAlmighty: Obama has said repeatedly he won't negotiate on the debt ceiling. Given his track record, how many people actually believe that? Exactly no one except hardcore Obamatons.


THIS. The man is incapable of standing his ground.
2013-01-01 12:48:07 PM  
2 votes:

Rwa2play: GAT_00: Anyone else actually hoping for more Boehner incompetence?  Kicking this thing down the road two months so the GOP can lump it into the debt ceiling and we can do that again is 15 different kinds of bad.  Biden all but guaranteed that we'll have to deal with demands for spending cuts for passing the debt ceiling.

This deal needs to die.

Pretty much; this is one instance I hope the TP-types just kill it altogether under the delusion that Obama will yield more ground...Only for Obama to put the middle-class tax cut bill up for Congress and practically putting the gun to the TP's heads and daring them to pull the trigger.


THIS is how I would prefer things to turn out.

Literally.  Just.  Like.  This.
2013-01-01 12:35:38 PM  
2 votes:
i.imgur.com
2013-01-01 12:33:27 PM  
2 votes:
"Just cut spending" is the new "some of my best friends are.." and "I only have a problem with ILLEGAL immigrants"..
2013-01-01 12:21:28 PM  
2 votes:

AntiNerd: What a depressing topic. All I can think of is to quote Digby:

Many on the left live in a fantasy in which poor and middle-class white Republicans dwell in a world of false consciousness, simply failing to understand the degree to which Republican politicians betray them and their interests. The truth is far more disturbing: the people in these districts, particularly the ones who vote in Republican primaries, know precisely what their representatives are doing and what they stand for. They like it, and continue to vote for representatives even farther to the right year after year. Half of Republicans believe ACORN (read, black government workers) stole the election for Obama. 44% of Republicans either want to secede or simply aren't sure. Self-described conservatives were 14 percentage points more likely to want to a buy a gun after the Sandy Hook massacre than not.

No matter what Obama does, Republicans won't care and won't fold.

That's what we're up against, folks. Anyone thinking the Republicans are going to be reasonable on anything is taking a sucker bet.


That FEMA camp idea of theirs is sounding almost reasonable now.  A modest proposal if you will.
2013-01-01 12:11:29 PM  
2 votes:

AntiNerd: No matter what Obama does, Republicans won't care and won't fold.

That's what we're up against, folks. Anyone thinking the Republicans are going to be reasonable on anything is taking a sucker bet.


Exactly. As the D's compromise and compromise, the R's will keep moving their baseline position farther and farther to the right. I've never seen a group of people who are as good at taking a strong bargaining position and turning it into weakness as the Democrats.
2013-01-01 12:09:01 PM  
2 votes:

stiletto_the_wise: Raises taxes only on the super-rich, but leaves the rich making $250K-$400K untouched. Thanks for sticking with your principles, spineless Democrats. You could have just run out the clock but you caved.


150k difference isn't worth it in the grand scheme. This is a decent deal.  The economy can't take more of this BS.  Compromise means you aren't entirely satisfied.  Pass the bill and tackle the remaining issues one at a time.
2013-01-01 12:03:06 PM  
2 votes:

mayIFark: So, even if it passes, my taxes went up for a day? I pay at one rate for 364 days and a different rate for a day?


No. The tax rates will be retroactive to Jan 1.
2013-01-01 11:58:35 PM  
1 votes:

AKTurkey: Was that Grover tweet real? If so, he seems to have deleted it.


yup

Link
2013-01-01 11:55:19 PM  
1 votes:
according to Freeperland and Townhall, Paul Ryan is now a RINO.

ahahahahahahaha
2013-01-01 11:37:11 PM  
1 votes:

Grand_Moff_Joseph: shower_in_my_socks: The bill has passed with 80 GOP votes.

So, to twist Grumpy Grover's words a bit, a majority of the GOP voted AGAINST tax cuts for 98% of America.


Yep!
2013-01-01 11:23:52 PM  
1 votes:
Majority Leader AND Majority Whip vote opposing the Speaker?

brightlightsfilm.com

Begun the TeaTard Wars have.
2013-01-01 11:23:51 PM  
1 votes:
And Hoyer is now trying to shame the unshamable for not voting for Sandy aid.
2013-01-01 11:21:47 PM  
1 votes:
It would be nice for the clerk to refer to the "Bahai" religion as correctly....rather than as "Baja."
2013-01-01 11:19:16 PM  
1 votes:

Great_Milenko: [i.imgur.com image 483x186]

This is what republican's actually believe.


Which means that 2 out of 3 knowingly and willfully voted against a "taxcut" for lower and middle class Americans.
2013-01-01 11:14:47 PM  
1 votes:

shower_in_my_socks: The bill has passed with 80 GOP votes.


So, to twist Grumpy Grover's words a bit, a majority of the GOP voted AGAINST tax cuts for 98% of America.
2013-01-01 11:06:20 PM  
1 votes:

Somacandra: shower_in_my_socks: Commenters on HuffPo are acting like this is the actual vote. 60 GOP yea votes and counting.

Yeah, but those commenters are about an evolutionary 1/2 step above Youtubers. I wouldn't trust them to know what the actual bill is and what it isn't. :-)


C-spam said its the real vote. They probably know what they are talking about.
2013-01-01 11:01:17 PM  
1 votes:

shower_in_my_socks: Commenters on HuffPo are acting like this is the actual vote. 60 GOP yea votes and counting.


Yeah, but those commenters are about an evolutionary 1/2 step above Youtubers. I wouldn't trust them to know what the actual bill is and what it isn't. :-)

i.imgur.com
2013-01-01 11:00:58 PM  
1 votes:
The bill has passed with 80 GOP votes.
2013-01-01 11:00:51 PM  
1 votes:

The Bestest: Grover Norquist @GroverNorquist
The Bush tax cuts lapsed at midnight last night. Every R voting for Senate bill is cutting taxes and keeping his/her pledge.


This is the most idiotic statement ever. There is NO difference in outcome from doing it tonight or a month ago. This is total BS.
2013-01-01 10:59:23 PM  
1 votes:
Grover Norquist @GroverNorquist
The Bush tax cuts lapsed at midnight last night. Every R voting for Senate bill is cutting taxes and keeping his/her pledge.
2013-01-01 10:58:49 PM  
1 votes:
So, it passes. And in other news, 70 congress people are too inept to press a button even given fifteen minutes to do so.
2013-01-01 10:58:21 PM  
1 votes:

Stone Meadow: Scorpitron is reduced to a thin red paste: Is there any increased spending in any of these bills?

No, but the automatic cuts are cancelled.


Don't think they've been cancelled, just punted another 2 months down the road. The only spending bit I've heard of is an extension of unemployment benefits.
2013-01-01 10:49:56 PM  
1 votes:
Ah fark....121 to 70.
2013-01-01 10:45:26 PM  
1 votes:

Corvus: "Up until now, our Speaker has said when the Senate acts, we will have a vote in the House. That is what he said. That is what we expect," Pelosi said following a Democratic caucus meeting where Vice President Biden briefed lawmakers on the deal he'd finalized with Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) just a day earlier.

"We're all very eager to see the form that the Republican leadership will put onto the floor today," she added. "The issue of whether we have an up-or-down vote shouldn't even be a question. We were told we would not have any legislation on the floor until, or unless, the Senate acted. And when they did we would have a vote. And so we want to have that vote."

Boenher farking lied.


JohnnyC: Of course he did... have you known him to do anything else?


And now, Obama will introduce the middle-class tax cut bill and say the following to the House GOP...

25.media.tumblr.com

He'll practically tell them "go ahead, pull the trigger and see what happens"...and the House GOP will blow their own brains out.
2013-01-01 10:44:27 PM  
1 votes:
By the look of it, it might pass without even having majority R support.

Bloody republicans will be able to say they averted the fiscal cliff, but will be able to show the tea derpers they voted nay on the senate bill.
2013-01-01 10:40:18 PM  
1 votes:

Waxing_Chewbacca: This was in no way a perfect bill.  A lot of Ds hated it.  I, had been there, would have voted yes for the good of the nation but held my nose.  These assholes can't except anything but everything they want.  Hell, Brit farkin Hume is calling them out.  I hope the GOP burns after this.  Moderates too as they looked the other way as the teatards took over.  Ronnie Regean would have been ecstatic in getting a deal like this.  Wtf are these people thinking?!  Wtf are the people who ELECT them thinking?!


The right-wing media told them to.
2013-01-01 10:02:44 PM  
1 votes:
Anyone watching the live proceedings?Link
2013-01-01 09:52:40 PM  
1 votes:

bemused outsider: 9:19 p.m. ET - The House is now voting on rule for the fiscal cliff deal, then will start general debate.

Vote on process.

Real vote in another hour.


Norquist must be thrashing his Dukes of Hazzard sheets in a rage.
2013-01-01 09:30:41 PM  
1 votes:

DeltaPunch: They're voting right now.... so far 95 yea and 0 nay... looks like it will pass based on this trend.


This is not the Senate bill litself. This is a rule that paves the way for it to be considered. Since the Speaker intends to bring it to a vote, this is just procedural. Until the actual bill is signed, I would not call it a done deal.
2013-01-01 09:29:55 PM  
1 votes:
Okay... Thanks for the replies Somacandra, VarmintCong, and Opiate of the Lasses. I think I get it now. Still seems dumb, but the whole thing seems dumb at this point.

I think we should have a rule where the House gets "locked in" until they get their job done.
2013-01-01 09:26:42 PM  
1 votes:

JohnnyC: Smelly McUgly: The Senate already passed it. If the House passes it, it goes to the president to sign it into law.

Isn't that entirely backwards? They're supposed to originate in the House. I really don't get how this is supposed to go the other way. Can anyone explain why it's alright for this to go Senate to House to President?


The senate deal is technically a really big amendment to some bill the House passed.
2013-01-01 09:24:25 PM  
1 votes:

Opiate of the Lasses: That shiatstain Grover Norquist has conveniently come out and said (contrary to everything he's EVER said) that letting tax cuts expire for some isn't a tax hike.


He needs the GOP as much as they need him. Once he actually calls this a violation he will be expected to start mounting primary challengers or be seen as toothless. This gives him an out, which he needs.
2013-01-01 09:22:05 PM  
1 votes:

itanimullI: Dougie AXP: Did I miss the derp? I've been traveling all day.


If you turn on C-Span right now you can catch a truckload of it from Rep. Dreier of California.


Jesus, that was beyond weapons grade, that was close to nuclear grade derp.
2013-01-01 09:20:22 PM  
1 votes:

Somacandra: redbucket: Well, everyone is reporting they'll vote between 9 and 10pm on the Senate bill without changes. So, unless there's a surprise, that's that.

I would not count out either 1) the bill failing for lack of votes, or 2) the bill passing without a majority of House Republicans. If its the latter, that will be the final nail in Boehner's Speakership coffin, I think.


Not even remotely. Don't underestimate these people's capacity for self-delusion. The same way Romney's 47% comments SHOULD have ended his candidacy immediately, but didn't, do you think the republicans won't find a way to spin this to themselves as a win? That shiatstain Grover Norquist has conveniently come out and said (contrary to everything he's EVER said) that letting tax cuts expire for some isn't a tax hike. I would love love LOVE if all Democrats voted present on this. Or at least enough Dems such that a majority of the Republicans would have to vote FOR the bill for it to pass. Pelosi needs to deliver 96 Dems and have the repubs whip the other 122. No letting these assholes off the hook passing a compromise(d) bill with full Dem support and 20-odd Republicans in blood-red districts.
2013-01-01 09:08:16 PM  
1 votes:

redbucket: Well, everyone is reporting they'll vote between 9 and 10pm on the Senate bill without changes. So, unless there's a surprise, that's that.


I would not count out either 1) the bill failing for lack of votes, or 2) the bill passing without a majority of House Republicans. If its the latter, that will be the final nail in Boehner's Speakership coffin, I think.
2013-01-01 08:40:08 PM  
1 votes:

lemurs: Infernalist: I just can't see the Tea Derpers going along with the bill as-is, no changes. That's not their MO at all. I'll believe it when I see it.

If House Democrats vote for the bill, the Tea Derpers can vote against it and it'll still pass with even modest Republican support. Then you can stock up on popcorn and watch the party eat itself until the midterms.


See, that's the thing! Boehner wouldn't dare bring it up for a vote and see the vaunted 'united GOP' openly vote against itself They live and die by the Hastert Rule. And to have the Tea Derpers voting against a united GOP and Democratic block? Oh dear lords, the poor GOPers would see every open seat get challenged by Tea Derpers in their primaries and THAT is what truly scares them. They don't fear Democratic challengers in those gerrymandered districts, but to get burned out in a purity race in the primaries, oh yes, that scares them.

That's why I can't see the GOP voting against itself. I can't see the Tea Derpers changing their MO this late in the game on TAXES of all things and I can't see the GOP opening itself up to an open Tea Derper revolt by having a split vote.

That's why I'm so damned skeptical of this vote happening.
2013-01-01 08:36:04 PM  
1 votes:

Infernalist: I just can't see the Tea Derpers going along with the bill as-is, no changes. That's not their MO at all. I'll believe it when I see it.


If House Democrats vote for the bill, the Tea Derpers can vote against it and it'll still pass with even modest Republican support. Then you can stock up on popcorn and watch the party eat itself until the midterms.
2013-01-01 08:35:27 PM  
1 votes:

TV's Vinnie: skullkrusher: TV's Vinnie: skullkrusher: TV's Vinnie: [i45.tinypic.com image 338x338]
TEABAGGERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRS!

Seriously. The Teabaggers who lost the election are just trying to wreck the country because they're butthurt little crybabies who still cannot fathom the fact that most of the country is disgusted with them.

Just wait for these fired farksticks to be out of office later this month, and THEN begin the fiscal curb and budget ceiling talks once there are more Democrats sworn in.

Seriously, your scorched earth theory is stupid.
They actually believe they are doing the right thing. Yes, they are that dumb.

No. Deep down, they know what they are doing is wrong and evil. They just don't care because it's all about them and if they can't get their way, then let all of creation itself be damned!

probably not

You've never heard of Steve King, have you?


He does good books, but those movies of his generally stink up the joint.
2013-01-01 08:34:07 PM  
1 votes:

skullkrusher: TV's Vinnie: skullkrusher: TV's Vinnie: [i45.tinypic.com image 338x338]
TEABAGGERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRS!

Seriously. The Teabaggers who lost the election are just trying to wreck the country because they're butthurt little crybabies who still cannot fathom the fact that most of the country is disgusted with them.

Just wait for these fired farksticks to be out of office later this month, and THEN begin the fiscal curb and budget ceiling talks once there are more Democrats sworn in.

Seriously, your scorched earth theory is stupid.
They actually believe they are doing the right thing. Yes, they are that dumb.

No. Deep down, they know what they are doing is wrong and evil. They just don't care because it's all about them and if they can't get their way, then let all of creation itself be damned!

probably not


You've never heard of Steve King, have you?
2013-01-01 08:30:15 PM  
1 votes:

red5ish: Infernalist: there are roughly 70 61 Tea Derpers

Tealiban
2013-01-01 08:29:55 PM  
1 votes:
As a federal employee I am not sure which i rather have, this bill passed or just go off the cliff already.

On the one hand I can appreciate the tax issue being resolved, on the other hand we have 2 more months of no real budget and dealing with the across the board cuts hanging over head. Its starting to get ridiculous.
2013-01-01 08:29:06 PM  
1 votes:

mrshowrules: Waxing_Chewbacca: mrshowrules: shower_in_my_socks: HuffPo saying the House GOP has enough votes to pass the bill without amendments. They will not amend it because they know the Senate will reject it.

There goes all the leverage then DNC ever had.  Permanent tax cuts on income up to $450K and the GOP can fark Obama on the debt ceiling again and then Obama won't have any leverage at all.

Wrong. They have sequestration. The Rs are destroying Medicare! POTUS is playing the long game... Again. Just like in the campaign. Let the man work.

CNN reported that if it passes without amendments, it doesn't go back to the Senate.   Can you be clearer on why it would go back to the Senate if they House passes it without amendments?


The Senate already passed it. If the House passes it, it goes to the president to sign it into law.
2013-01-01 08:29:06 PM  
1 votes:

redbucket: Waxing_Chewbacca:
Wrong. They have sequestration. The Rs are destroying Medicare! POTUS is playing the long game... Again. Just like in the campaign. Let the man work.

I believe sequestration only happens when the two bills have differing language, which wouldn't be the case if they passed the senate bill. Which Rep Cole is now saying will happen.


I just can't see the Tea Derpers going along with the bill as-is, no changes. That's not their MO at all. I'll believe it when I see it.
2013-01-01 08:20:59 PM  
1 votes:

Waxing_Chewbacca: mrshowrules: shower_in_my_socks: HuffPo saying the House GOP has enough votes to pass the bill without amendments. They will not amend it because they know the Senate will reject it.

There goes all the leverage then DNC ever had.  Permanent tax cuts on income up to $450K and the GOP can fark Obama on the debt ceiling again and then Obama won't have any leverage at all.

Wrong. They have sequestration. The Rs are destroying Medicare! POTUS is playing the long game... Again. Just like in the campaign. Let the man work.


CNN reported that if it passes without amendments, it doesn't go back to the Senate.   Can you be clearer on why it would go back to the Senate if they House passes it without amendments?
2013-01-01 08:15:51 PM  
1 votes:

mrshowrules: shower_in_my_socks: HuffPo saying the House GOP has enough votes to pass the bill without amendments. They will not amend it because they know the Senate will reject it.

There goes all the leverage then DNC ever had.  Permanent tax cuts on income up to $450K and the GOP can fark Obama on the debt ceiling again and then Obama won't have any leverage at all.


Wrong. They have sequestration. The Rs are destroying Medicare! POTUS is playing the long game... Again. Just like in the campaign. Let the man work.
2013-01-01 08:06:14 PM  
1 votes:

mrshowrules: shower_in_my_socks: HuffPo saying the House GOP has enough votes to pass the bill without amendments. They will not amend it because they know the Senate will reject it.

There goes all the leverage then DNC ever had.  Permanent tax cuts on income up to $450K and the GOP can fark Obama on the debt ceiling again and then Obama won't have any leverage at all.


I will not count this deal done until it passes back to the Senate with an up-or-down vote from the House.
2013-01-01 08:01:28 PM  
1 votes:

redbucket: Somacandra:
CNN is reporting that an inside source is saying that if they can't get the votes for an Amended version (to send back to the Senate) under the Hastert Rule, Boehner will let the original Senate bill come up for an up/down vote:


My money is on them bringing the amended bill up for a House vote tonight, it passes with a few democrats going along, but doesn't actually get 218 republican votes -- someone will tell the GOP committee they'll vote for it then won't, or Boener will just say there was a miscount due to confusion. Then they say this is the true bipartisan bill and the Senate better pass it if they want to save America like the good Rs do.


At current count, there are 14 'blue dog' Democrats who'd even consider voting for the GOP and there are roughly 70 Tea Derpers who won't vote for any tax increases at all.

The numbers simply don't add up. Unless he plans on breaking the Hastert rule, there won't be a House vote on any of those bills.
2013-01-01 07:52:39 PM  
1 votes:

Great Porn Dragon: Waxing_Chewbacca: NewportBarGuy: Corvus: He never intended to put it up for a vote.

Nope. He didn't. Which surprises me that anyone thought he actually would.

I know there's no chance of it working but I'd love to see patriots who care for their fellow Americans, D or R, and who live in Boner's district, Cantor's and every teatardist congressman, to start recall actions on these farkers for gross negligence and incompetence.

Difficulty--there are a fair number of teatarder Congresscritters who are from states where there IS no effective recall procedure--once they're in, they're in. :P

(Trust me, a LOT of people in KY would LOVE to recall Turtleboy...but unfortunately we have no legal procedure for recall of Senators and/or Representatives once elected.)


fark. Well... Time to drink
2013-01-01 07:45:43 PM  
1 votes:

Somacandra: Corvus: But they seem to have no problem with the middle class taxes going up.

CNN is reporting that an inside source is saying that if they can't get the votes for an Amended version (to send back to the Senate) under the Hastert Rule, Boehner will let the original Senate bill come up for an up/down vote:

If the GOP is able to get a commitment of 218 votes on the amendment, then House Republicans will bring it to the floor for a vote, the source said. If the GOP is not able to secure those votes, it will bring up the Senate-passed measure for an up or down vote in the House, the source said.

We'll see if he will do it.


He's lying again.
2013-01-01 07:44:04 PM  
1 votes:

Corvus: But they seem to have no problem with the middle class taxes going up.


CNN is reporting that an inside source is saying that if they can't get the votes for an Amended version (to send back to the Senate) under the Hastert Rule, Boehner will let the original Senate bill come up for an up/down vote:

If the GOP is able to get a commitment of 218 votes on the amendment, then House Republicans will bring it to the floor for a vote, the source said. If the GOP is not able to secure those votes, it will bring up the Senate-passed measure for an up or down vote in the House, the source said.

We'll see if he will do it.
2013-01-01 07:39:56 PM  
1 votes:

ItchyMcDoogle: The last deal had the far left


What far left?
2013-01-01 07:39:11 PM  
1 votes:

Somacandra: I'll be surprised: the hardcore activists on the Reactionary side are howling against it--they too would prefer the so-called "cliff."


Which makes taxes even more. But they seem to have no problem with the middle class taxes going up.
2013-01-01 07:37:13 PM  
1 votes:

stiletto_the_wise: dumbobruni: there are over 3 million unfilled jobs in America, and a bunch of industries ranging from manufacturing to financial services to construction are whining about "skills/staffing shortages".

LOL, how are "unfilled jobs" measured? Counting the number of job postings on companies' web sites and just assuming they're all real positions they're actually hiring for? Or accepting companies' pinky-swear that the shortages they're whining about are real?


This isn't really anything to even take note of in our economy. What is happening for most of these companies is they are currently contracting out the work for these open positions. Essentially by hiring an employee that they will pay less than a contractor and removing business from the contractor they are ultimately hurting the economy. These specialized positions largely go unfilled because people that do them realize there is a gap and can freelance or start their own business and earn more rather than take a full time position.
2013-01-01 07:35:13 PM  
1 votes:

mrshowrules: That is why I'm afraid they will actually pass the Senate Bill.


I'll be surprised: the hardcore activists on the Reactionary side are howling against it--they too would prefer the so-called "cliff."
2013-01-01 07:29:50 PM  
1 votes:

red5ish: Once the tax cuts expire the Republicans will have no leverage at all. They will be in the position of asking for tax cuts and having to make concessions to get them. I wouldn't be surprised to see the debt ceiling threat given up in the negotiations.


That is why I'm afraid they will actually pass the Senate Bill.
2013-01-01 07:23:37 PM  
1 votes:

red5ish: Once the tax cuts expire the Republicans will have no leverage at all. They will be in the position of asking for tax cuts and having to make concessions to get them. I wouldn't be surprised to see the debt ceiling threat given up in the negotiations.


They'll ask for tax cuts and continue to refuse concessions. They believe they are patriots saving the nation - both on this tax increase and on the debt ceiling. At this point, I think we're going to have to wait for the new Congress to come in, at least a week of bad press, and maybe even for Obama to lay into them during the State of the Union before House Republicans will throw in their towel.
2013-01-01 06:53:03 PM  
1 votes:
Watching the freakshow that is the current Republican congress, I realize now there is only one way our federal government will ever be functional again: non-Republicans are going to have to start voting en masse in Republican primary elections.

Thanks to gerrymandering, the Republicans have a House majority all but guaranteed. How else could they have maintained a 30 seat majority in the past election despite their near-universally despised behavior? The only challenge many incumbent Republican congressmen face is during primary elections. These primaries aren't battles to see who is the most moderate, who is the most thoughtful, who is the most capable of working with others. The primaries are just purity deathmatches, where victory goes to the candidate who can appeal most to the rabid, intractable base. Yet these primaries are the only elections that matter in gerrymandered districts. The general election means nothing.

The only way to get around this is for rational people in these gerrymandered districts -- lifelong independents, lifelong Democrats, even people who are generally don't vote but have been roused from their apathy by the insanity of the current House -- to start registering as Republicans, and start voting in primary elections for the least crazy candidate available.
2013-01-01 06:49:24 PM  
1 votes:

JohnnyC: Corvus: Boenher farking lied.

Of course he did... have you known him to do anything else?


I am sort of surprised that he lied about a deal being made. I know they lie about lots of things but thats still something they usually try to keep honest on.
2013-01-01 06:45:18 PM  
1 votes:
"Up until now, our Speaker has said when the Senate acts, we will have a vote in the House. That is what he said. That is what we expect," Pelosi said following a Democratic caucus meeting where Vice President Biden briefed lawmakers on the deal he'd finalized with Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) just a day earlier.

"We're all very eager to see the form that the Republican leadership will put onto the floor today," she added. "The issue of whether we have an up-or-down vote shouldn't even be a question. We were told we would not have any legislation on the floor until, or unless, the Senate acted. And when they did we would have a vote. And so we want to have that vote."


Boenher farking lied.
2013-01-01 06:45:17 PM  
1 votes:

NewportBarGuy: Corvus: He never intended to put it up for a vote.

Nope. He didn't. Which surprises me that anyone thought he actually would.


I know there's no chance of it working but I'd love to see patriots who care for their fellow Americans, D or R, and who live in Boner's district, Cantor's and every teatardist congressman, to start recall actions on these farkers for gross negligence and incompetence.
2013-01-01 06:43:24 PM  
1 votes:

ariseatex: I think you're on the money with the part I bolded above. I don't remember Boehner saying he'd have the House vote for it even if the majority of republicans didn't support it.


Pelosi says he did.

House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) and her deptuies noted that Boehner had vowed to act on whatever budget package was sent over from the Senate.

He out and out lied.
2013-01-01 06:43:19 PM  
1 votes:

NewportBarGuy: Corvus: He never intended to put it up for a vote.

Nope. He didn't. Which surprises me that anyone thought he actually would.


I personally think Boehner is screwed no matter what he does. The GOP donors and sponsors are not happy about their taxes going up, that's a fact, but those sponsors can't influence the Tea Derpers and Boehner can't threaten them into compliance, so...

He's stuck. He can't do a vote without unanimous GOP consensus and they're not going to give it.

The Democrats have successfully managed to turn the GOP lock-step group-think, their greatest strength, into a weakness to be exploited. Color me impressed.
2013-01-01 06:41:57 PM  
1 votes:

Tommy Moo: TV's Vinnie: [i45.tinypic.com image 338x338]
TEABAGGERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRS!

Seriously. The Teabaggers who lost the election are just trying to wreck the country because they're butthurt little crybabies who still cannot fathom the fact that most of the country is disgusted with them.

Just wait for these fired farksticks to be out of office later this month, and THEN begin the fiscal curb and budget ceiling talks once there are more Democrats sworn in.

There can't possibly be enough of them to prevent this from passing. The House doesn't get to filibuster. If nearly all Dems vote yes, they'll only need, what, 30 or 40 out of 200some Republicans to join them?


Even when there was a Democrat Supermajority a few years back, all it took was one selfish spiteful little dickhead named Joe Lieberman to monkeywrench everything up.
2013-01-01 06:41:22 PM  
1 votes:

ariseatex: Even if he did, though, there's a difference between saying that and saying "I'll have the House vote on it with no amendments added."


Then why wasn't he involved in negotiations then? You can't say "I am done I am leaving it up to the senate" and when the senate does it you go "Why the hell wasn't I involved!!"

Well you can. It's what children do but everyone should call it out for being complete bullshiat.
2013-01-01 06:39:25 PM  
1 votes:

Corvus: If Boehner couldn't get a majority of Republicans to support his BS only tax people over 1 million bill why the fark did he think a bi-partisan senate bill would do better?


Didn't he say he would give it a vote in the house if the senate passed one? Now he is going back on his word because the Republicans don't support it?

What the fark did he think was going to happen? That the Republicans who hated the BS GOP bill were going to support the bi-partisan bill?

Or was this all a charade so he hoped the senate would fail and he could blame them? Didn't he say he would put it up for a vote even if the majority of republicans didn't support it? If not why did he have everyone waste their time?


Boehner is drunk...orange... and flaccid.

I don't think they actually had a 'plan' outside of putting up appearances without substance. Really, I think most of this is simply spite. The Republicans and Teahaddis know they've screwed themselves and are just trying to make sure everyone is screwed right along with them. About the only way anything is going to pass the House is if there is a rider on the bill that allows them to legally (and without consequence) refer to the President as "Boy" from now on. Scum... the lot of them.
2013-01-01 06:31:33 PM  
1 votes:

TV's Vinnie: [i45.tinypic.com image 338x338]
TEABAGGERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRS!

Seriously. The Teabaggers who lost the election are just trying to wreck the country because they're butthurt little crybabies who still cannot fathom the fact that most of the country is disgusted with them.

Just wait for these fired farksticks to be out of office later this month, and THEN begin the fiscal curb and budget ceiling talks once there are more Democrats sworn in.


filmint.nu

We are stepped out upon the world's stage now, with the fate of the world economy is in our hands! Teabagger's blood's been spilled to afford us this moment! Now! Now! Now!
2013-01-01 06:26:58 PM  
1 votes:

red5ish: Waxing_Chewbacca: In the end it really isn't the fault of these teatards in congress.  It's the mongloid, mouth-breathers in their districts.  Thanks assholes.  You farked the country.

If we want to blame low-information voters (and we should) let's also thank Fox News, the Koch brothers, Rush, and the myriad of AM Radio Talk Show hosts who make their living misinforming the electorate. Without them the tea baggers wouldn't have been anything more than the disaffected fringe on the right.


Actually I would say low information voters are much much better than those you mention.
2013-01-01 06:26:07 PM  
1 votes:

Waxing_Chewbacca: How many seats did the Ds pick up?  Maybe this can pass once they're sworn in.  F the GOP.


The problem is that no bill goes up for a vote unless a majority of Republicans want it to. So it doesn't matter how many Democrats are in.
2013-01-01 06:25:48 PM  
1 votes:

Waxing_Chewbacca: In the end it really isn't the fault of these teatards in congress.  It's the mongloid, mouth-breathers in their districts.  Thanks assholes.  You farked the country.


If we want to blame low-information voters (and we should) let's also thank Fox News, the Koch brothers, Rush, and the myriad of AM Radio Talk Show hosts who make their living misinforming the electorate. Without them the tea baggers wouldn't have been anything more than the disaffected fringe on the right.
2013-01-01 06:23:37 PM  
1 votes:
How many seats did the Ds pick up?  Maybe this can pass once they're sworn in.  F the GOP.
2013-01-01 06:23:06 PM  
1 votes:
Serious question here:

If Boehner couldn't get a majority of Republicans to support his BS only tax people over 1 million bill why the fark did he think a bi-partisan senate bill would do better?


Didn't he say he would give it a vote in the house if the senate passed one? Now he is going back on his word because the Republicans don't support it?

What the fark did he think was going to happen? That the Republicans who hated the BS GOP bill were going to support the bi-partisan bill?

Or was this all a charade so he hoped the senate would fail and he could blame them? Didn't he say he would put it up for a vote even if the majority of republicans didn't support it? If not why did he have everyone waste their time?
2013-01-01 06:21:56 PM  
1 votes:

DamnYankees: Apparently the GOP is whipping right now for votes on an amended bill.


The senate should jam it up there ass.
2013-01-01 06:18:45 PM  
1 votes:

DamnYankees: Apparently the GOP is whipping right now for votes on an amended bill.


And Reid just announced that the Senate is adjourned for the day. Didn't hear anything about tomorrow, though. So if an amended bill is passed by the House today, there's still a nonzero chance that the Senate could pass it tomorrow. There's also a nonzero chance that I'll spend tonight in a mad passionate threesome with Anderson Cooper, but I'm not holding my breath on either.
2013-01-01 06:15:52 PM  
1 votes:

red5ish: The House Republicans think Americans will be fooled by this game of musical chairs.


It doesn't matter. They have already shown that they can hold a majority of the House whether people vote for them or not.
2013-01-01 06:15:51 PM  
1 votes:

red5ish: The House Republicans think Americans will be fooled by this game of musical chairs.


Most of their base will be.
2013-01-01 06:10:29 PM  
1 votes:

Tommy Moo: TV's Vinnie: [i45.tinypic.com image 338x338]
TEABAGGERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRS!

Seriously. The Teabaggers who lost the election are just trying to wreck the country because they're butthurt little crybabies who still cannot fathom the fact that most of the country is disgusted with them.

Just wait for these fired farksticks to be out of office later this month, and THEN begin the fiscal curb and budget ceiling talks once there are more Democrats sworn in.

There can't possibly be enough of them to prevent this from passing. The House doesn't get to filibuster. If nearly all Dems vote yes, they'll only need, what, 30 or 40 out of 200some Republicans to join them?


Boehner's unofficially bound by the "Hastert Rule," which is that a GOP Speaker should not bring a bill up for vote unless it is supported by a majority of GOP reps.

If Boehner breaks the Hastert Rule, he's done as Speaker come Thursday.

Now, he could say "The political process and getting things done are both more important than unofficial rules or my Speakership, so I'm bringing the bill up for a vote anyway."

But, this is Boehner we're talking about.
2013-01-01 05:59:22 PM  
1 votes:

coco ebert: Anyone know if NSF funding will be affected by these austerity measures?


Not directly, but depending on how long the "budget sequestration" goes into effect, NSF and the like would have to limit the number of grants they provide.
2013-01-01 05:51:38 PM  
1 votes:

russlar: DORMAMU: dumbobruni: stiletto_the_wise: GoldSpider: 2. How do we encourage businesses to hire?

Mandate a 30 hour work day? At some point we're going to have to accept that there are more workers out there than there is (full-time) work to do.

there are over 3 million unfilled jobs in America, and a bunch of industries ranging from manufacturing to financial services to construction are whining about "skills/staffing shortages".

Because hr people write the position dedcription and noone wants to train.

Look at some of the qualifications, it boggles the mind.

Entry-level position requires 5 years experience.


In a 2-year-old version of the technology.
2013-01-01 05:49:58 PM  
1 votes:

ariseatex: It's less chutzpah and more saving-his-Speakership, IMO.


This is already dead. At this point Cantor is just waiting for the rest of the blood to drip out of the knife wound in the back.
2013-01-01 05:44:55 PM  
1 votes:
Thanks, Tea Party! I look forward to the new session, where you get to vote against a tax cut for the middle-class, a Medicare provision to defer costs for doctors, and a farm bill provision to lower milk prices one after the other.

Let's just hope that people worse off than me aren't too harmed for too long by your dickshiattery.
2013-01-01 05:33:50 PM  
1 votes:

jocutus: kingflower: Issa on CNN just implied that the Senate was drunk and partying when they passed the bill to avoid the fiscal cliff....This is what Obama is dealing with. Over the cliff we go!!!

Technically we're already over and trying to pull on a parachute, but one of our hands keeps punching us in the face and complaining about how much we're spending on parachutes. It's been that way for 4 years now.


Sympathizes:

i1126.photobucket.com
2013-01-01 05:24:23 PM  
1 votes:

russlar: DORMAMU: dumbobruni: stiletto_the_wise: GoldSpider: 2. How do we encourage businesses to hire?

Mandate a 30 hour work day? At some point we're going to have to accept that there are more workers out there than there is (full-time) work to do.

there are over 3 million unfilled jobs in America, and a bunch of industries ranging from manufacturing to financial services to construction are whining about "skills/staffing shortages".

Because hr people write the position dedcription and noone wants to train.

Look at some of the qualifications, it boggles the mind.

Entry-level position requires 5 years experience.


Craigslist Ad: Janitorial assistant, must have own car, must be willing to work varying shifts, 20 hours per week, $8.80 per hour...

/ saw that one last year
// who knows if it's legitimate? it was on Craigslist, so it there could be some 'trollin...
2013-01-01 05:21:35 PM  
1 votes:
I work at a place that has a "skill gap." They think they can hire people with useful degrees for 14 bucks an hour. Funnily enough, once the economy started getting better, the number of applicants dropped like a stone, and all us suckered into this job to pay for our student loans now have decent resumes and skills.

They're getting really close to having a massive skill gap.
2013-01-01 05:16:11 PM  
1 votes:

DORMAMU: dumbobruni: stiletto_the_wise: GoldSpider: 2. How do we encourage businesses to hire?

Mandate a 30 hour work day? At some point we're going to have to accept that there are more workers out there than there is (full-time) work to do.

there are over 3 million unfilled jobs in America, and a bunch of industries ranging from manufacturing to financial services to construction are whining about "skills/staffing shortages".

Because hr people write the position dedcription and noone wants to train.

Look at some of the qualifications, it boggles the mind.


Entry-level position requires 5 years experience.
2013-01-01 05:15:27 PM  
1 votes:

dumbobruni: there are over 3 million unfilled jobs in America, and a bunch of industries ranging from manufacturing to financial services to construction are whining about "skills/staffing shortages".


People have to have certain skill sets and they have to live where the jobs that require those skill sets are. That's a lot.
2013-01-01 05:12:50 PM  
1 votes:

dumbobruni: stiletto_the_wise: GoldSpider: 2. How do we encourage businesses to hire?

Mandate a 30 hour work day? At some point we're going to have to accept that there are more workers out there than there is (full-time) work to do.

there are over 3 million unfilled jobs in America, and a bunch of industries ranging from manufacturing to financial services to construction are whining about "skills/staffing shortages".


Because hr people write the position dedcription and noone wants to train.

Look at some of the qualifications, it boggles the mind.
2013-01-01 05:12:38 PM  
1 votes:

russlar: Wow. When they've lost Fox News, they've _lost_.


Fox News uses the GOP. The GOP only thinks they use Fox.
2013-01-01 05:10:39 PM  
1 votes:

LazarusLong42: Obama is Chaotic Good. Tries to do great stuff but never afraid to troll the other side (or break with his own side) when the necessity arises.


That's not Chaotic Good. You're thinking of Neutral Good.
2013-01-01 05:09:15 PM  
1 votes:

stoli n coke: ariseatex: Brit Hume @brithume
Appears the House GOP's pie-in-the-sky caucus will blow up the deal, leaving new higher tax rates in place and assuring Rs get all blame.

Guess they've lost Fox News.


House Republicans have basically painted themselves into a corner. They pandered to the base with two things, taxes are too high and Obama bad. Now, they've encountered a situation where A.) They do something that Obama agrees with, or B.) They go on record for allowing or voting in favor of the tax rates going up.

They're in a can't win situation, so they're stalling the vote, hoping the problem will go away on its own.


My brother tried that when we were young and he smashed my head on the corner of the bathroom counter, creating a huge gash. No need to tell Mom & Dad, we'll just cover it up and it'll go away! he said.

At least my brother had an excuse. He was 11. What's the House's?
2013-01-01 05:08:57 PM  
1 votes:

Corvus: And to prove my point that those on the right hate that the GOP is voting for this, look at this thread.


i.imgur.com
2013-01-01 05:05:00 PM  
1 votes:

quizzical: jocutus: Technically we're already over and trying to pull on a parachute, but one of our hands keeps punching us in the face and complaining about how much we're spending on parachutes. It's been that way for 4 years now.

[applause.gif]


Nice one!
2013-01-01 05:04:11 PM  
1 votes:
How can a party that is the victim 100% of the time be trusted to govern? Can someone name a single negative thing for which the GOP has accepted blame? Anything? I can rattle off a list of admitted failures on the Democratic side in case anyone wants to bring that weak sauce as a reply.
2013-01-01 05:02:08 PM  
1 votes:
If the GOP is serious about trying to cut a deal and the Tea Derpers are fouling it up...

Perhaps we'll see a situation with the new Congress with the sane remnants of the GOP in the House working with the Democrats to ostracize and marginalize the Tea Derper caucus.
2013-01-01 05:00:10 PM  
1 votes:

ariseatex: Brit Hume @brithume
Appears the House GOP's pie-in-the-sky caucus will blow up the deal, leaving new higher tax rates in place and assuring Rs get all blame.

Guess they've lost Fox News.


Wow... Just wow.
2013-01-01 04:59:58 PM  
1 votes:

ariseatex: Brit Hume @brithume
Appears the House GOP's pie-in-the-sky caucus will blow up the deal, leaving new higher tax rates in place and assuring Rs get all blame.

Guess they've lost Fox News.


I don't watch fox. Is Hume one of the neo-con drones, or is he like Smith and actually retains most of his sanity?
2013-01-01 04:59:09 PM  
1 votes:

5 star chef of tv dinners: So where are we at with this thing. Has the house voted? Are they still having "debate" about the bill? Currently giving reach arounds to the Tea Party Caucus? I need a sitrep people..


No, yes, and dear God I hope not.
2013-01-01 04:58:22 PM  
1 votes:

ariseatex: Brit Hume @brithume
Appears the House GOP's pie-in-the-sky caucus will blow up the deal, leaving new higher tax rates in place and assuring Rs get all blame.

Guess they've lost Fox News.


Wow. When they've lost Fox News, they've _lost_.
2013-01-01 04:58:16 PM  
1 votes:
So where are we at with this thing. Has the house voted? Are they still having "debate" about the bill? Currently giving reach arounds to the Tea Party Caucus? I need a sitrep people..
2013-01-01 04:57:06 PM  
1 votes:
Brit Hume @brithume
Appears the House GOP's pie-in-the-sky caucus will blow up the deal, leaving new higher tax rates in place and assuring Rs get all blame.

Guess they've lost Fox News.
2013-01-01 04:51:18 PM  
1 votes:

hasty ambush: LazarusLong42: Spending needs to continue in the short-term in order to get the economy back in order. Only after that's done--only after unemployment is back below ~6%, and growth is above ~2% yearly, should we think about cutting the deficit and debt. Why, you ask?

Because if we start cutting them now by imposing huge spending cuts, in the long term the debt will increase even more due to a continued sagging economy.

Really? Ask Japan how well that has worked out for them. They have spent ove a decade trying to spend their way out of multiple recessions with the only thing to show for it is a Naitonal Debt that is now over 200% of their GDP. During the 1990s alone Japan tried 10 fiscal stimulus packages totaling more than 100 trillion yen, and each failed to end the recession


Or Japan only got out of the Lost Decade by following stimulus programs. Big article on the economist that suggested it in the New York Times Magazine last weekend. Not that reading or facts are important to conservative "thinkers"
2013-01-01 04:49:57 PM  
1 votes:

LazarusLong42: Infernalist: DamnYankees: Matt Yglesias  @mattyglesias
Senate GOP is lawful evil, House GOP is chaotic evil.

Does this mean that Obama is a Paladin?

Obama is Chaotic Good. Tries to do great stuff but never afraid to troll the other side (or break with his own side) when the necessity arises.


I disagree, Obama isn't anti-authoritarian enough to be chaotic. neutral-good perhaps. I might call good ol Joe Biden as chaotic-good. Bill Clinton for sure.
2013-01-01 04:45:49 PM  
1 votes:

LazarusLong42: Infernalist: DamnYankees: Matt Yglesias  @mattyglesias
Senate GOP is lawful evil, House GOP is chaotic evil.

Does this mean that Obama is a Paladin?

Obama is Chaotic Good. Tries to do great stuff but never afraid to troll the other side (or break with his own side) when the necessity arises.


Biden would fit that same category.
2013-01-01 04:45:22 PM  
1 votes:
"NewportBarGuy

hasty ambush: "


I believe that someone just had their ass handed to them. That would be you, hasty ambush.....

//lolol
2013-01-01 04:44:13 PM  
1 votes:

Infernalist: DamnYankees: Matt Yglesias  @mattyglesias
Senate GOP is lawful evil, House GOP is chaotic evil.

Does this mean that Obama is a Paladin?


Obama is Chaotic Good. Tries to do great stuff but never afraid to troll the other side (or break with his own side) when the necessity arises.
2013-01-01 04:39:48 PM  
1 votes:

stiletto_the_wise: dumbobruni: there are over 3 million unfilled jobs in America, and a bunch of industries ranging from manufacturing to financial services to construction are whining about "skills/staffing shortages".

LOL, how are "unfilled jobs" measured? Counting the number of job postings on companies' web sites and just assuming they're all real positions they're actually hiring for? Or accepting companies' pinky-swear that the shortages they're whining about are real?


BLS looks at open job listings. its actually not 3 million.....its 3.6 million.

however, that may be understated. the IT industry is claiming that 1.7 million jobs in that sector alone are unfilled.

Link
2013-01-01 04:37:38 PM  
1 votes:

DamnYankees: Matt Yglesias  @mattyglesias
Senate GOP is lawful evil, House GOP is chaotic evil.


Does this mean that Obama is a Paladin?
2013-01-01 04:36:13 PM  
1 votes:
Matt Yglesias  @mattyglesias
Senate GOP is lawful evil, House GOP is chaotic evil.
2013-01-01 04:35:46 PM  
1 votes:

DamnYankees: TV's Vinnie: The Teabaggers who lost the election are just trying to wreck the country because they're butthurt little crybabies who still cannot fathom the fact that most of the country is disgusted with them.

Almost every individual tea partier in Congress actually won their election. The GOP only lost 8 seats. This is part of the problem.


also notice that Akin and Mourdock lost due to their stances on women's issues, not economics.
2013-01-01 04:31:16 PM  
1 votes:
There is no deal that the house GOP will like unless it's 100% what they want.
2013-01-01 04:29:20 PM  
1 votes:
Okay so the whole 'omfg cliff deadline' was a load of horseshiat, apparently...

So, when is this officially done and we're over the cliff and the cuts kick in?
2013-01-01 04:28:43 PM  
1 votes:

stiletto_the_wise: GoldSpider: 2. How do we encourage businesses to hire?

Mandate a 30 hour work day? At some point we're going to have to accept that there are more workers out there than there is (full-time) work to do.


there are over 3 million unfilled jobs in America, and a bunch of industries ranging from manufacturing to financial services to construction are whining about "skills/staffing shortages".
2013-01-01 04:27:38 PM  
1 votes:

kingflower: Issa on CNN just implied that the Senate was drunk and partying when they passed the bill to avoid the fiscal cliff....This is what Obama is dealing with. Over the cliff we go!!!


even the "low information" voter is going to realize the house Republicans are a bunch of assholes.

They won't deal with Obama so they write their own bill. They can't pass that. Then the tell the Senate to make a bi-partisan bill for them (probably thinking it will fail and then they can blame it all on them) they actually do that but then they refuse that bill.
2013-01-01 04:24:43 PM  
1 votes:
Issa on CNN just implied that the Senate was drunk and partying when they passed the bill to avoid the fiscal cliff....This is what Obama is dealing with. Over the cliff we go!!!
2013-01-01 04:22:35 PM  
1 votes:

LouDobbsAwaaaay: Corvus: So you didn't make this comment:

LouDobbsAwaaaay: 1) If you aren't advocating the Freeper position as the truth, then why the fark did you bring it up? You seem to really enjoy non-sequitors.

Sorry I thought it was you. sorry I thought that "1)" meant it was a seperate point.

WTF are you talking about? Are you actually complaining that I managed to make both of your points look foolish at the same time?

Come up with something of substance, or admit you have nothing. Or just fade the fark away and let your failure get buried already. You have no leg to stand on. You've failed. You are now trying desperately to retreat into some obscure complaint of semantics. You aren't even defending your own bullshiat anymore.

It's over.


I've been tying to follow this argument. It seems like you guys actually agree on the level of craziness of Free Republic users and their lack of touch with reality in general. Why are you arguing again?
2013-01-01 04:18:08 PM  
1 votes:

GoldSpider: 2. How do we encourage businesses to hire?


Mandate a 30 hour work day? At some point we're going to have to accept that there are more workers out there than there is (full-time) work to do.
2013-01-01 04:17:09 PM  
1 votes:

Corvus: It has 2.7 trillion. Yes it will still need to be adjusted like I said in the future. The problem is government has been borrowing from it and Republicans don't want to give the money back because they want to steal it for tax cuts for the rich


I though SS was obligated by law to put the surplus into T-Bills (essentially lending it to the US general fund) to avoid taking all those trillions out of the economy. Wouldn't just leaving it in piles of cash in a vault be bad for the economy?
2013-01-01 04:16:05 PM  
1 votes:

DamnYankees: Gosling: DamnYankees: I'm actually pretty worried at this point that this bill will pass the House with 190 Democrats and 30 Republicans, the Dems will essentially have passed this bill completely on their own.

It won't. Because the GOP will amend it, meaning it has to go back to the Senate, and the Senate Dems have already said they're not coming back for any more votes. Amendments are tantamount to killing the bill.

I'm not sure how the amendment process works - if you have a majority for the bill as is, there's no way to stop it from being amended?


The House is on a tight schedule. If this thing isn't passed by the time the new Senate is seated (Midnight on Wed/Thurs IIRC) the Senate vote is void and it has to start all over. While it doesn't prevent the House GOP from amending it it does discourage them.
2013-01-01 04:15:13 PM  
1 votes:

DamnYankees: I'm actually pretty worried at this point that this bill will pass the House with 190 Democrats and 30 Republicans, the Dems will essentially have passed this bill completely on their own.


Well except for all those Republican senators who voted yes.
2013-01-01 04:06:32 PM  
1 votes:

Corvus: When people on the right are saying this is the worst deal ever and Obama got everything (which I do not agree with either), usually it doesn't mean they won, does it?

I thought that covered it. Do I need to reword that or use all caps?
Never said it was true. I said: When people are saying something is the worst deal ever usually it means they did not win.


Except when they whine no matter what because they are perpetual victims. Would all caps help? They ride the outrage-train 24/7. Every action taken by Obama, regardless of the outcome, is fit into the narrative that they are being screwed by his unconstitutional boner. Their outrage does not constitute a useful measure of their success or failure.

You've moved on from just being wrong to obnoxiously sneering in defiance of the obvious.
2013-01-01 04:02:12 PM  
1 votes:
NBC reporting there were 40 GOPers who spoke out in their caucus meeting. 37 spoke against the plan.
2013-01-01 04:01:21 PM  
1 votes:
So to sum up, Republicans suck.

/ fark them up their stupid arses
2013-01-01 04:01:06 PM  
1 votes:

LouDobbsAwaaaay: Corvus: Where did I say that? Oh yeah I didn't say that.

Normally you seem like a smart guy on here so not sure why you are wigging out on this so much. When people on the right are saying this is the worst deal ever and Obama got everything (which I do not agree with either), usually it doesn't mean they won, does it?

1) If you aren't advocating the Freeper position as the truth, then why the fark did you bring it up? You seem to really enjoy non-sequitors.


When people on the right are saying this is the worst deal ever and Obama got everything (which I do not agree with either), usually it doesn't mean they won, does it?


I thought that covered it. Do I need to reword that or use all caps?
Never said it was true. I said: When people are saying something is the worst deal ever usually it means they did not win.

Can you point out where I said the person is telling the truth? because I don't see it, I only says "someone said something" never said it was the truth or not.
2013-01-01 03:59:59 PM  
1 votes:

The real fiscal cliff story: how the entire American political class convinced itself that unemployment is no longer worth thinking about.

- davidfrum (@davidfrum) January 1, 2013


Bingo.
2013-01-01 03:58:46 PM  
1 votes:

Gosling: Steve LaTourette (R-OH) went on CNN and said it was ridiculous to vote on a bill passed by "sleep-deprived octogenarians".

Please note, that vote would have been the last one LaTourette ever cast as a member of Congress, as he is retiring on Thursday.


Oh yeah, this compromise bill is dead in the water.
2013-01-01 03:57:41 PM  
1 votes:

GoldSpider: How do we encourage businesses to hire?


Taxcuts for the "job creators". Wealthy people like to invest willy-nilly in creating jobs for which there are no demand.
2013-01-01 03:52:45 PM  
1 votes:

Corvus: LouDobbsAwaaaay: Corvus: Well if you think Obama caved in a gave everything to the GOP you should go on FreeRepublic and tell them because they sure as hell don't see it that way.

Because if FreeRepublic says it, it must be true, right? You really need to come up with something better than that.

Where did I say that? Oh yeah I didn't say that.

Normally you seem like a smart guy on here so not sure why you are wigging out on this so much. When people on the right are saying this is the worst deal ever and Obama got everything (which I do not agree with either), usually it doesn't mean they won, does it?


Well, to be fair, their idea of "winning" is amending the 13th and 14th Amendments, killing poors in the streets, and returning to pre-Sherman Antitrust Act America, so their perception of "winning" and "not winning" is something out of whack.
2013-01-01 03:52:19 PM  
1 votes:
When does the new Congress convene?
2013-01-01 03:51:09 PM  
1 votes:

LouDobbsAwaaaay: Corvus: Well if you think Obama caved in a gave everything to the GOP you should go on FreeRepublic and tell them because they sure as hell don't see it that way.

Because if FreeRepublic says it, it must be true, right? You really need to come up with something better than that.


Where did I say that? Oh yeah I didn't say that.

Normally you seem like a smart guy on here so not sure why you are wigging out on this so much. When people on the right are saying this is the worst deal ever and Obama got everything (which I do not agree with either), usually it doesn't mean they won, does it?
2013-01-01 03:49:43 PM  
1 votes:

Gosling: DamnYankees: Ross Douthat  @DouthatNYT
Seems like superdupermajority for Sen. bill could be emboldening House Rs. "If so many Dems voted 'yes' at 450K, why not try them at 750K?"

This is now a facepalm thread. Everybody post facepalms now.


I'm giddy. All this time, I've been thinking how terrible it'll be for the Democrats to make a deal now, this late. I mean, it's already past the deadline and they're still trying to negotiate with those retards and the retards are still demanding more.

fark em. fark em raw. Go over the goddamned cliff, Mr. President, and we'll fix the mess when we hit the ground.
2013-01-01 03:48:57 PM  
1 votes:
images.wikia.com
2013-01-01 03:48:05 PM  
1 votes:
I take Cantor's rejection of the bill in front of his Republican colleagues as a declaration for his candidacy as Speaker of the House. Why else try to make Boehner look bad for promoting the bill? I imagine Cantor is thinking "If these guys are crazy enough to reject this deal, they may be just crazy enough to make me speaker, too!"
2013-01-01 03:47:19 PM  
1 votes:

Corvus: Well if you think Obama caved in a gave everything to the GOP you should go on FreeRepublic and tell them because they sure as hell don't see it that way.


LOL according to those guys, the Fiscal Cliff is now an imaginary creation of the liberal media.
2013-01-01 03:46:23 PM  
1 votes:

HeadLever: Kuroshin: So it's been trending downward, after Bush II's spending spree?  imokaywiththis.jpg

Me too, but the trend is tenuous. Look at this bill for a perfect example. It actually contains spending increases. And if you look at Bush's years, Obama is far above his average (yes, it is not all of his fault, however, it is all our problem). See the overall spending pattern in the Chart 9 where it dips some before continuing to climb at an exponential pace? That is what I am worried about.


That may have something to do with the only proven way across decades of fiscal policy to cause job growth is government spending.
2013-01-01 03:46:21 PM  
1 votes:

Corvus: Well if you think Obama caved in a gave everything to the GOP you should go on FreeRepublic and tell them because they sure as hell don't see it that way.


Because if FreeRepublic says it, it must be true, right? You really need to come up with something better than that.
2013-01-01 03:43:45 PM  
1 votes:

sonnyboy11: Infernalist: Holy shiat, I step away for a few hours and the whole place catches fire.

As I understand it, the House took the Senate bill from last night, took a big steaming dump on it and sent it back to the Senate to be approved with that steaming shiat all over it?

Is that a correct short assessment of the current situation?

I think they're still in the process of farking it up, but other than that, you pretty much got it.


This pleases me. Thank God for the retarded House GOP. They'll ruin this compromise and force us over the cliff. We'll get massive cuts, tax rates go back to where they should be and we'll get Democrat bills on the first day of the new Congress fixing the Middle Class taxes back down to where they were.

With any luck, we'll see some Democrat bills authorizing agency managers to strategically cut out wasteful programs to satisfy the sequester 12% requirements.
2013-01-01 03:42:45 PM  
1 votes:

Infernalist: Holy shiat, I step away for a few hours and the whole place catches fire.

As I understand it, the House took the Senate bill from last night, took a big steaming dump on it and sent it back to the Senate to be approved with that steaming shiat all over it?

Is that a correct short assessment of the current situation?


House hasn't officially taken a dump yet. Cantor stood up at the private Republican meeting and told Bohener that he objected. The feeling is that Republicans will vote to amend the bill and add spending cuts. But Pelosi is trying to get Boehner to bring it up for a vote as is.
2013-01-01 03:39:54 PM  
1 votes:

Infernalist: Holy shiat, I step away for a few hours and the whole place catches fire.

As I understand it, the House took the Senate bill from last night, took a big steaming dump on it and sent it back to the Senate to be approved with that steaming shiat all over it?

Is that a correct short assessment of the current situation?


They WILL BE sending it back. They delayed their vote on it, most likely to amend it with stuff that has no chance in hell of passing the Senate.

Because compromise is a sign of weakness. Or something.
2013-01-01 03:38:55 PM  
1 votes:

Corvus: It is a problem. It's a long term problem. Look at Europe if you think making huge cuts and tax increases are a good idea with a weak economy. One reason our deficit shot up was because of losing revenue because people are out of work and are on getting government aid. Fixing that would be a huge help to the deficit. (I believe its about 600 billion that added to the deficit because of the recession)


I would go further and say that employing people at wages where they don't have to rely on any aid just to live would cure not only the deficit ills, but most of the "mental health" problems that people are blaming for all the mass shootings that are going around.
2013-01-01 03:35:45 PM  
1 votes:

LouDobbsAwaaaay: Yeah I listened to this excuse for four years. "He's playing 319-dimensional chess! The payoff is coming! Just you wait!" Still haven't seen anything but endless capitulation to GOP demands at every stage of the process.


We already know the shiat-kicking bill is in the pipeline. It was be the first one introduced on Thursday by the Democrats. It takes back everything that Obama offered up and goes right back to the $250K threshold.
2013-01-01 03:33:33 PM  
1 votes:

LouDobbsAwaaaay: Corvus: Probably because I was no addressing your question at all. I am addressing your overall complaint against is that he should be doing more for political gain instead of trying to help people.

False Dilemma Fallacy. Look at all the help he's providing to the American people by treating the GOP with respect! Really getting a lot done, aren't we?

You know what would help the American people? If Obama would knock the shiat out the GOP so hard they scurry back under a rock and hide for fear of Obama bringing them more pain. Play this patty-cakes bullshiat with them, and you get what the GOP is doing right now.


I took logic in college and logical fallacies. Don't just rattle them off and pretend you prove something you look like an idiot.


No it's not a false dilemma because you yourself said he should go over the fiscal cliff. Doing that would hurt lots Americans. you can pretend it won't but it will.

Are you saying no American would be hurt from 2 million people losing their unemployment insurance?
'

That's false to you?
2013-01-01 03:32:43 PM  
1 votes:

Gosling: LouDobbsAwaaaay: You know what would help the American people? If Obama would knock the shiat out the GOP so hard they scurry back under a rock and hide for fear of Obama bringing them more pain. Play this patty-cakes bullshiat with them, and you get what the GOP is doing right now.

The patty-cakes bullshiat is also known as 'giving the GOP enough rope to hang themselves'. This is Obama being able to say in no uncertain terms, 'Look how much I've tried to compromise. I've compromised so much my own party is angry at me. But they won't listen to reason.' The shiat-knocking will come on Thursday.


Yeah I listened to this excuse for four years. "He's playing 319-dimensional chess! The payoff is coming! Just you wait!" Still haven't seen anything but endless capitulation to GOP demands at every stage of the process.
2013-01-01 03:31:58 PM  
1 votes:
The House cannot possibly be that stup...

Wait, this is the House. Never mind.
2013-01-01 03:30:49 PM  
1 votes:

LouDobbsAwaaaay: You know what would help the American people? If Obama would knock the shiat out the GOP so hard they scurry back under a rock and hide for fear of Obama bringing them more pain. Play this patty-cakes bullshiat with them, and you get what the GOP is doing right now.


The patty-cakes bullshiat is also known as 'giving the GOP enough rope to hang themselves'. This is Obama being able to say in no uncertain terms, 'Look how much I've tried to compromise. I've compromised so much my own party is angry at me. But they won't listen to reason.' The shiat-knocking will come on Thursday.
2013-01-01 03:27:12 PM  
1 votes:

DamnYankees: Gosling: Word is that Cantor essentially rejected the deal right in Boehner's face. The House GOP was pleasantly surprised.

The next words Cantor says to Boehner will be 'EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINATE! EXTERMINAAAAAATE!'

Link?


Go to Twitter and type in 'cantor'. The feed's blowing to smithereens over it.
2013-01-01 03:22:53 PM  
1 votes:
i.imgur.com
2013-01-01 03:21:24 PM  
1 votes:

HeadLever: I'll disagree. When the interest on the debt eats up about 20% of the entire federal tax revenue (and remember how low interest rates are currently), it is a huge problem. only those that have no clue are the ones that pretend that this is not a problem. Just imagine what will happen to this cost when interest rates normalize. While i'll agree that it is not the biggest problem in the short term, it is THE most serious long term problems that we currently face as a country and that small changes right now have huge implications for future generations. Kicking that can down the road isn't going to work for much longer.


It is a problem. It's a long term problem. Look at Europe if you think making huge cuts and tax increases are a good idea with a weak economy. One reason our deficit shot up was because of losing revenue because people are out of work and are on getting government aid. Fixing that would be a huge help to the deficit. (I believe its about 600 billion that added to the deficit because of the recession)
2013-01-01 03:11:42 PM  
1 votes:

quizzical: Dusk-You-n-Me: House GOP consensus emerging, lawmaker says: Send #fiscalcliff bill back to #Senate w/spending cuts- Lisa Mascaro (@LisaMascaroinDC) January 1, 2013

That's a pretty amazing choice, considering the Senate passed their bill 89-8.


I get the feeling they're going to try and poison pill it by demanding cuts to entitlements in the hopes that Dems will reject it and thus (in theory) open themselves up to blame.
2013-01-01 03:07:23 PM  
1 votes:

KarmicDisaster: So, in Republican World, any temporary tax relief you provide is actually "raising taxes" because the tax break will eventually expire, right? And whoever had the hot "potatoe" when the tax break expires did it, right?


Which by that logic make any "temporary" tax cut a "tax increase" (because it makes taxes rise at a later date)so all the Republicans have voted for tax increases.

Too bad Republicans don't take their beliefs to logical conclusions and they are hodgepodge of justifications to support the positions they already have.

For example their hatred for "activists judges" but their huge support of Judges striking down anything Obama does.
2013-01-01 03:06:01 PM  
1 votes:

Gosling: And once again the GOP snatches defeat from the jaws of victory.


Senate Democratic aide on whether they'll take up a bil amended by House GOP: "They are full of hot air. Not a chance we come back."

- Ryan Grim (@ryangrim) January 1, 2013


The consensus is the House GOP is full of it.
2013-01-01 03:04:02 PM  
1 votes:

Dusk-You-n-Me: House GOP consensus emerging, lawmaker says: Send #fiscalcliff bill back to #Senate w/spending cuts
- Lisa Mascaro (@LisaMascaroinDC) January 1, 2013


And once again the GOP snatches defeat from the jaws of victory. Obama will deploy the gun-to-the-head bill on Thursday.
2013-01-01 03:03:38 PM  
1 votes:

LouDobbsAwaaaay: Corvus: LouDobbsAwaaaay: dumbobruni: in other news, the House of Representatives has no significance, and filibusters don't exist in the Senate.

Explain how the House or Senate, using filibusters or not using them, could stop the fiscal cliff from being enacted today, or stop the Dems from flogging the GOP with bills to cut taxes on the bottom 98% afterward. Be specific.

The problem is Obama I think actually cares more about the American people than to make political gain. You seem to consider that a weakness.

This is a non-sequitor. It rests on a Bare Assertion Fallacy and doesn't even address the question I was asking.


Probably because I was no addressing your question at all. I am addressing your overall complaint against is that he should be doing more for political gain instead of trying to help people.
2013-01-01 02:59:08 PM  
1 votes:

Zeno-25: The House Republican leadership might just be dumb enough to attempt to amend this thing. Cantor is apparently opposed to the deal.

https://twitter.com/dcbigjohn/statuses/286185030303236096

https://twitter.com/dcbigjohn/statuses/286185355160473601


Go, Eric! Stand your ground! No compromises!

(maybe after this fails Obama will be willing to shove some real socializm down neocon throats)
2013-01-01 02:51:51 PM  
1 votes:

House GOP consensus emerging, lawmaker says: Send #fiscalcliff bill back to #Senate w/spending cuts

- Lisa Mascaro (@LisaMascaroinDC) January 1, 2013
2013-01-01 02:49:03 PM  
1 votes:
The House Republican leadership might just be dumb enough to attempt to amend this thing. Cantor is apparently opposed to the deal.

https://twitter.com/dcbigjohn/statuses/286185030303236096

https://twitter.com/dcbigjohn/statuses/286185355160473601
2013-01-01 02:41:54 PM  
1 votes:

quizzical: The good folks at Free Republic hate the deal. The Boobies is a plea to call GOP Congressmen. Other posts say to "let Ubama drive us off the cliff," that the GOP who vote for it are "sheep," and that if it passes the House, it will be because of "Rats and Rinos" working together. People believe Boehner will lose the Speakership if it passes. Also, the whole fiscal cliff is a media conspiracy, so that the media can broadcast the fact that Republicans voted for a tax hike, loose seats in Congress, and then Obama will be able to pass Amnesty and gun control.


This one is hilarious:

The Senate deal raises taxes on minimum-wage Americans because it does not address the expiration of the payroll tax cut. Under this deal, tax rates for all Americans making over $400, (not $400,000) will go up by 2%.


Yes Freepers are now complaining that something from the OBAMA STIMULUS EVIL SPENDING is going to expire!!
2013-01-01 02:31:07 PM  
1 votes:
The good folks at Free Republic hate the deal. The Boobies is a plea to call GOP Congressmen. Other posts say to "let Ubama drive us off the cliff," that the GOP who vote for it are "sheep," and that if it passes the House, it will be because of "Rats and Rinos" working together. People believe Boehner will lose the Speakership if it passes. Also, the whole fiscal cliff is a media conspiracy, so that the media can broadcast the fact that Republicans voted for a tax hike, loose seats in Congress, and then Obama will be able to pass Amnesty and gun control.
2013-01-01 02:29:42 PM  
1 votes:

Corvus: here is what frustrates the hell out of me. Ask any rich person which rather you have? a 3% tax increase on your top rates OR the stock market plunging because of economic uncertainty.

Any rich person with half a brain would take the 3% tax rate. I could understand if these people were doing this for selfish reasons but it's more about ideological dogma because these fights are not in the best interest of the rich.


Any rich person with half a brain doesn't care what their tax rate is over a certain point. If I were making $10 million a year, I don't care if my taxes are 10% or 90%--either way I'm still taking home over a million a year and living life better than 99.9% of the planet.
2013-01-01 02:29:36 PM  
1 votes:

Hobodeluxe: taxes should go back to 1950 levels


If only. Like most independents, I've seen that Andy Griffith documentary series, and in that, no one paid taxes ever. That's why everyone wants to go back to that time.

Well, that and the fact that back then, "those people" knew their place.
2013-01-01 02:26:05 PM  
1 votes:

tudorgurl: Boehner is a waste, but if he's not re-elected speaker then who would be? Eric Cantor? Do you think Cantor would be any better?


don't know. Didn't say Cantor would be better. Just saying Boehner is about the worst speaker that I have ever seen. If you can't get a majority of you own party to vote for a bill you made for them to pass (the previous budget bill) you are a failure at being a speaker of the house.
2013-01-01 02:21:50 PM  
1 votes:
taxes should go back to 1950 levels
2013-01-01 02:19:08 PM  
1 votes:

Corvus: Holy shiat if Boehner can't get this bill through after such a lopsided vote in the senate this guy should go home and never show his face ever again.

I think the house Reps are afraid of of voting for a "tax increase" like I said before. They are damned if they do and damned if they don't. They put this gun up to their own heads too.



Boehner is a waste, but if he's not re-elected speaker then who would be? Eric Cantor? Do you think Cantor would be any better? Honestly, I think he'd be worlds worse than Boehner. And as for Grover Norquist, he needs to be made irrelevant. That man has done more to ruin this country than anyone I can think of. The fact that ELECTED MEMBERS OF CONGRESS are afraid of this guy tells me he has WAAAAAAAAAY too much power. No one person should have that much power over our elected officials. None.
2013-01-01 02:17:40 PM  
1 votes:

OtherLittleGuy: bharrisuc: Is anyone watching the House live stream? ( Link )

Instead of dealing with the fiscal cliff legislation, the republicans have dropped a random, un-discussed bill to further freeze the pay of federal workers. Now they are talking about naming a post offices.

CAN WE GET ON WITH IT !!111!11

Someone upthread mentioned the GOP as a petulant child.

Now they're at the dinner table pushing peas back and forth on their plate.


Which is hilarious because they had just said "I don't want to make my own dinner you make it for me!!!"
2013-01-01 02:15:43 PM  
1 votes:

tudorgurl: UPDATE: 12:21 PM - Today
Republicans Delay Fiscal Cliff Deal Vote

In a sign that the fiscal cliff deal could face an uncertain future in the House, Republican leaders delayed their planned vote on the measure and were expected to meet twice before going to the floor of the House in the late afternoon or evening.

If the House amends the bill passed by the Senate early this morning, or worse, offers a whole new bill, it could throw the seeming certainty achieved by the Senate out the window. Many observers had seen the strong bipartisan vote in the Senate -- including such conservatives as former Club For Growth head Sen. Pat Toomey (R-Pa.) -- as an encouraging sign that Tea Party House members could also hold their noses and go along.

-- Mike McAuliff

Source


Boehner: It's time for the senate to figure out a bill for me (because I suck and am too incompetent to do my job)

[Senate makes bill for Boehner]

Boehner: Yeah nevermind we don't want that bill anyway.


Holy shiat if Boehner can't get this bill through after such a lopsided vote in the senate this guy should go home and never show his face ever again.

I think the house Reps are afraid of of voting for a "tax increase" like I said before. They are damned if they do and damned if they don't. They put this gun up to their own heads too.
2013-01-01 02:15:42 PM  
1 votes:
By the way, CBO says this will cost $3.5T (warning, PDF) over the next 10 years.

That ought to stall House GOP support.
2013-01-01 02:12:31 PM  
1 votes:

bharrisuc: Is anyone watching the House live stream? ( Link )

Instead of dealing with the fiscal cliff legislation, the republicans have dropped a random, un-discussed bill to further freeze the pay of federal workers. Now they are talking about naming a post offices.

CAN WE GET ON WITH IT !!111!11


Someone upthread mentioned the GOP as a petulant child.

Now they're at the dinner table pushing peas back and forth on their plate.
2013-01-01 02:10:52 PM  
1 votes:
Has anyone seen the details regarding the 'permanent' AMT solution? That's sounding like a pleasant surprise, but would like to know more.
2013-01-01 02:05:41 PM  
1 votes:
UPDATE: 12:21 PM - Today
Republicans Delay Fiscal Cliff Deal Vote

In a sign that the fiscal cliff deal could face an uncertain future in the House, Republican leaders delayed their planned vote on the measure and were expected to meet twice before going to the floor of the House in the late afternoon or evening.

If the House amends the bill passed by the Senate early this morning, or worse, offers a whole new bill, it could throw the seeming certainty achieved by the Senate out the window. Many observers had seen the strong bipartisan vote in the Senate -- including such conservatives as former Club For Growth head Sen. Pat Toomey (R-Pa.) -- as an encouraging sign that Tea Party House members could also hold their noses and go along.

-- Mike McAuliff

Source
2013-01-01 02:05:02 PM  
1 votes:

uksocal: Does this deal create a new tax bracket? I THOUGHT the highest bracket started at 200/250, but there's now that one and the 400/450 one? In the long game, that actually could be advantageous, you've now split up the top 2% into more rational brackets.


Yes, it does.
2013-01-01 01:59:59 PM  
1 votes:

tudorgurl: dumbobruni: the GOP has shown stubborn indifference to popular opinion. and thanks to gerrymandering, they can easily maintain control no matter how unpopular they become.

I think this pisses me off more than anything. WHY IS THIS OK!?!? Why are they allowed to do this?! I thought gerrymandering was illegal.


Nominally, gerrymandering is a method of allowing a minority to have a voice - if you have 51% of a state lean left and 49% lean right, it's "better" to gerrymandered and ensure a proper representation.

Also remember that many political splits are geographical, and gerrymandering can enable geographical regions that would otherwise not have a voice to provide representatives. Again, nominally.
2013-01-01 01:58:45 PM  
1 votes:

JolobinSmokin: I'm just not that worried one way or the other.
I'll barely be affected in anyway no matter what deal passes.


I'm only watching this to see if I'm going to have a job this summer. You know, everybody was freaking out about defense contractors losing their jobs--highly trained, highly paid professionals who can probably find another (well-paying) job. Meanwhile, seasonal government workers--a lot of students and poor people who work two or three jobs in a year--will probably not be hired this year because of funding hold-ups, just like they weren't a few years back, when another budget battle was going on.

Never heard a word about that, though, did you? I did, because my job was never funded and I was unemployed during the only time of the year when I make enough money to get by. Is it going to happen again? Nobody knows, because first there's this battle, then the debt ceiling coming up, before anyone even knows if they will get their money for the year. But who gives a fark? It's just people who depend on those seasonal jobs to get by or pay their college tuition, that's all. But cut those jobs, cut unemployment, cut social services, and hey, take out another loan if you can't afford college. You can always pay it back later with the super job you're going to get from our booming economy.

/fark it, I'm going on welfare. I'll probably make more money being a leech. We don't really need national parks or public lands, anyway.
//"Government jobs--they're a sure thing. Just get in with the feds--you're set. You'll be rehired year after year."
2013-01-01 01:55:51 PM  
1 votes:

Corvus: DamnYankees: Corvus: Many Republicans might lose their seats because they voted for this.

IF this is true, they will merely lose them to even more conservative republicans. I don't know how that's good.

Yep, the ones who have been losing races across the country. Sure not all will lose because of the gerrymandered districts but some will. Besides if their district is very gerrymandered they already have a ultra conservative republican in that seat,


Here in Washington State we just created 2 new districts that were supposed to be competitive for Republicans, and it turned out to be not even close because TeaTards won the primaries. They're at maximum derp, and they'll continue to lose seats until they get their heads out of their asses.
2013-01-01 01:50:11 PM  
1 votes:

DamnYankees: Corvus: Many Republicans might lose their seats because they voted for this.

IF this is true, they will merely lose them to even more conservative republicans. I don't know how that's good.


Yep, the ones who have been losing races across the country. Sure not all will lose because of the gerrymandered districts but some will. Besides if their district is very gerrymandered they already have a ultra conservative republican in that seat,
2013-01-01 01:48:01 PM  
1 votes:

heavymetal: What I think is total bullshiat are these "poison pills" congress seems to need to pass in order to threaten them into doing their job. Whether it is the farm bill, debt limit, or this stupid ass "fiscal cliff"; it is us who have to face the worse of the consequences. Not those goobers in congress or the ultra-wealthy who basically own them. I would like to see some law passed to where any "poison pill" legislation designed to force them to do their jobs should only have direct consequences on them. Instead of tanking the economy for everyone, how about the consequences be they lose their right to run for re-election as well as any congressional seat in the future and a forfeiture of their congressional pension. Since this fiasco is basically due to their incompetence at doing their jobs, and if they can't do it all of them should be fired. Get them out of there and bring in people who actually have the guts to make the decisions they were elected to make.


What amusing is the GOP really did it to themselves. They forced themselves into voting to raise taxes because they put a gun to their own heads. They were so focused on screwing over Obama and Democrats they didn't realize they were forcing themselves in a worse position.

I mean yeah some Democrats in here are mad at Obama for "caving in" (as we see in this thread), but the teatards are going to go ballistic that the Republicans voted for "Obama's tax increase".

It's like if they would have voted for "Obamacare". They might go off the deep end call for the heads of the Republicans who voted for this bill.
2013-01-01 01:34:15 PM  
1 votes:
Passed 89-8, with almost all Republican Senators on board, will the House Republicans follow suite or will they just blow it by either all voting "no" or adding some stupid shait, like the repeal Obamacare, onto the bill so it dies when it goes back to the Senate and say "It's not our fault it didn't' pass".
2013-01-01 01:26:28 PM  
1 votes:

Corvus: This is how stupid the Republican party is, they think waiting a day magically turns "tax increases" into "tax cuts".

It's a party that caters to idiots. If you vote for these people you are an idiot.


They've got almost two whole years to hammer home the lie that Obama refused to negotiate with them and unilaterally raised taxes, but the brave tea party stood up to him and lowered those taxes, forcing him to sign an extension of the bush tax cuts.

The low information talk radio/fox news voter will believe anything.
2013-01-01 01:24:16 PM  
1 votes:

DamnYankees: When all that stuff is literally worse than doing nothing? Yes, he's a terrible negotiator.


Again, NOTHING IS OFFICIAL UNTIL THE PRESIDENT SIGNS THE BILL.  There is literally no risk to the President to compromise with the GOP if he believes the Tea Party will scuttle the deal and take us off the cliff anyway.
2013-01-01 01:23:10 PM  
1 votes:

LouDobbsAwaaaay: Obama should have been flogging them with that scenario from day-1, and demanded an immediate lay-down on debt-ceiling raises, pending appointments, gay-rights, and filibuster reform even before the GOP is allowed to come to the table to discuss what else they were going to give up in order to get Obama to get them out of this mess. Now we get barely anything, and the debt-ceiling fight is coming up so Obama can give away everything else in the name of "compromise" while the GOP continues to block anything and everything.


Maybe, JUST MAYBE, Obama believes there should be some cuts, like most reasonable people do, to things beyond the military.

Or you can impose your ideology on him and then berate him for not living up to it. Go with that.
2013-01-01 01:19:12 PM  
1 votes:

LouDobbsAwaaaay: TofuTheAlmighty: Obama has said repeatedly he won't negotiate on the debt ceiling. Given his track record, how many people actually believe that? Exactly no one except hardcore Obamatons.

THIS. The man is incapable of standing his ground.


Do you remember the Republican farkers that suggested liberals were incapable of thinking ill against the messiah Obama?

I'd like to invite them to this thread for a kick in the nuts.
2013-01-01 01:18:42 PM  
1 votes:

IlGreven: ...do you not see how this would backfire in the President's face if those grumbling Democrats get rowdy? Already guys like Howard Dean and Dennis Kucinich have savaged the deal, and hell, I hope that if the Tea Party doesn't kill it, those Democrats that are as liberal as Dean and Kucinich will.


Howard Dean and Dennis Kucinich aren't Congressmen and they were never exactly the darlings of the Party leadership anyway.  So far, the Democrats in Congress have been far more united than the Congressional Republicans.  It's far more likely that the GOP will crack before the Dems do.
2013-01-01 01:15:01 PM  
1 votes:

DamnYankees: It's a decent deal in a vacuum. It's a horrible deal when you realize there's a debt cieling fight coming in two months in which the Democrats now have zero leverage and the GOP once again knows Obama will always fold. Any gain made in this deal will simply be lost in March.


It's only a horrible deal if it in fact turns out to be a deal. You're thinking that somehow the GOP has decided to start taking yes for an answer.
2013-01-01 01:13:43 PM  
1 votes:

stiletto_the_wise: You're right. It's possible that the Dems put this "reasonable compromise" together, knowing full well (and hoping) that the Tea Partiers will reject it. Not sure I'd believe they had the brains for a move like that, but we'll see.


But they don't need lots of GOP votes, the only need some. That's why this whole thing is BS. They could get a much better deal like the bill passed by the senate but Bohener won't let them up for a vote.
2013-01-01 01:04:34 PM  
1 votes:

Waxing_Chewbacca: stiletto_the_wise: Raises taxes only on the super-rich, but leaves the rich making $250K-$400K untouched. Thanks for sticking with your principles, spineless Democrats. You could have just run out the clock but you caved.

150k difference isn't worth it in the grand scheme. This is a decent deal.  The economy can't take more of this BS.  Compromise means you aren't entirely satisfied.  Pass the bill and tackle the remaining issues one at a time.


It's a decent deal in a vacuum. It's a horrible deal when you realize there's a debt cieling fight coming in two months in which the Democrats now have zero leverage and the GOP once again knows Obama will always fold. Any gain made in this deal will simply be lost in March.
2013-01-01 01:03:42 PM  
1 votes:

rohar: Tax legislation cannot be retroactive.


yes, it can.

It is now. it's 2013 now. Also they are fixing the 2012 AMT in the the bill. That's retroactive.
2013-01-01 01:02:49 PM  
1 votes:
GOP offered $800 billion in new revenue through "tax reform", instead of rate increases, to happen at a later date (unlikely)

Obama wanted $800 billion through "tax reform" and another $800 billion through rate increases. the rate increse would be immediate, with unlikely tax reform later.

Obama got $600 billion in automatic rate increases.

and somehow, to the liberal, he's the worst negotiator ever.
2013-01-01 01:01:35 PM  
1 votes:
This is how stupid the Republican party is, they think waiting a day magically turns "tax increases" into "tax cuts".

It's a party that caters to idiots. If you vote for these people you are an idiot.
2013-01-01 12:55:35 PM  
1 votes:
You know the tea-tards are going to shoot the hostage. This compromise will go down in flames and the stock market crashes tomorrow....or not.
2013-01-01 12:51:26 PM  
1 votes:

TofuTheAlmighty: Granny_Panties: Troll Face Fartbama wins again and the GOP cries.

If by wins you mean screws over working people in favor of the rich, sure.

Obama has said repeatedly he won't negotiate on the debt ceiling. Given his track record, how many people actually believe that? Exactly no one except hardcore Obamatons. The GOP will take that hostage again, extract even more damaging spending cuts and rips to the safety net, and call it a day. Sure, Obama "won" $600B in revenue but it'll cost, what, another trillion in cuts? So in the past 14 months Obama will have garnered 4:1 spending cuts to revenues ($2.5T : $0.6T). That is literally insanity, we've already slashed discretionary spending to the bone.

This country's infrastructure is falling apart, our scientific research is being starved, and millions are immiserated because there aren't enough jobs. Spending cuts are the absolute dumbest course of action imaginable.


Politics 101 - What a president does in his second term is not always the same as in his first.
2013-01-01 12:50:33 PM  
1 votes:

Mentat: stiletto_the_wise: Exactly. As the D's compromise and compromise, the R's will keep moving their baseline position farther and farther to the right. I've never seen a group of people who are as good at taking a strong bargaining position and turning it into weakness as the Democrats.

I don't know how many times this has to be said: Nothing is official until the President signs a bill.  To this point, the Tea Party caucus in the House has scuttled every deal put before them, even by their own leadership.  If that stays true to form, Obama can offer any concessions he wants without fear of consequence.  If the Tea Party accepts the deal, Obama gets a decent bill and some grumbling from the liberal caucus.  If the Tea Party kills the deal, we officially go off the cliff and Obama can put the screws to them.  It's win-win for the Democrats.  Yes, I would like to see a better deal that doesn't involve going off the cliff, but this is politics.  Comparing this mess to the health care debacle and it's clear that Obama has learned something about dealing with the Tea Party and how to turn their own rage against them.  Save your outrage for whatever bill is actually signed into law, not for unofficial deals that stand a good chance of failing once they hit the House.


...do you not see how this would backfire in the President's face if those grumbling Democrats get rowdy? Already guys like Howard Dean and Dennis Kucinich have savaged the deal, and hell, I hope that if the Tea Party doesn't kill it, those Democrats that are as liberal as Dean and Kucinich will.

/Again, this isn't a compromise; it's a failure in leadership.
2013-01-01 12:48:43 PM  
1 votes:
My money is on boner crying like a little girl by days end.
2013-01-01 12:48:26 PM  
1 votes:

Gosling: Tom Cole (R-OK) is telling MSNBC that this first meeting will be partially so people have a chance to read the bill.

They haven't read it yet. Really. Really.


I was under the impression that Congressmen rarely read bills. They have people to do that for them.
2013-01-01 12:46:10 PM  
1 votes:
Tom Cole (R-OK) is telling MSNBC that this first meeting will be partially so people have a chance to read the bill.

They haven't read it yet. Really. Really.
2013-01-01 12:45:33 PM  
1 votes:

Mentat: Comparing this mess to the health care debacle and it's clear that Obama has learned something about dealing with the Tea Party and how to turn their own rage against them.


I wonder if this is why he trolled them in his speech last night
2013-01-01 12:43:15 PM  
1 votes:

OneBrightMonkey: I like the President, but he's a terrible negotiator and would never veto this agreement if it survives the House.

If he had a line in the sand he would have said so to Biden before he dispatched him to cut a deal with McConnell.


I've heard that Obama's apparently terrible negotiation strategy might stem from his desire to be considered the "post-partisan" President, making him more interested in failing to reach compromise than to successfully brow-beat the GOP back into the corner where they belong.
2013-01-01 12:30:16 PM  
1 votes:

Waxing_Chewbacca: stiletto_the_wise: Raises taxes only on the super-rich, but leaves the rich making $250K-$400K untouched. Thanks for sticking with your principles, spineless Democrats. You could have just run out the clock but you caved.

150k difference isn't worth it in the grand scheme. This is a decent deal.  The economy can't take more of this BS.  Compromise means you aren't entirely satisfied.  Pass the bill and tackle the remaining issues one at a time.


No. This isn't compromise. This is fail.

Under this deal, and all deals made in light of it, the deficit will go up. No doubt about it. It does nothing to address the deficit, it does nothing to address economic instability, and it does nothing to address governmental revenue and/or spending problems. In fact, I would be skeptical if this deal really actually satisfies any of the conditions of the "fiscal cliff" triggers at all, though everyone will pretend that it does.
2013-01-01 12:25:08 PM  
1 votes:

bulldg4life: Who's the republican strategist on cnbc crying about all those small business owners with 400k income that will be crushed with new taxes and unable to hire new workers or expand their business?

And how goddamn stupid are these fictional small business owners that they are seemingly avoiding tax write offs related to business expansion to pay for shiat out of their personal income?


This strategist has no idea what he's talking about, then, because like all income taxes, only the marginal amount above $400K will be taxed at the higher rate. So you can be this mythical starving small business owner with exactly $400K in before-taxes earnings, and all of that will be taxed at the low "middle class" tax rates.
2013-01-01 12:11:12 PM  
1 votes:

RexTalionis: If the House doesn't pass it by tomorrow morning, then the stock market is open and it'll spook the market.


Like FDR with the banks, I think Obama can shut down all US stock markets for a while. It would be good for the 'free market' derp lulz, anyway.
2013-01-01 12:08:37 PM  
1 votes:

GAT_00: Anyone else actually hoping for more Boehner incompetence?  Kicking this thing down the road two months so the GOP can lump it into the debt ceiling and we can do that again is 15 different kinds of bad.  Biden all but guaranteed that we'll have to deal with demands for spending cuts for passing the debt ceiling.

This deal needs to die.


I don't often agree with GAT_00, but I do on this.
2013-01-01 12:05:29 PM  
1 votes:
Raises taxes only on the super-rich, but leaves the rich making $250K-$400K untouched. Thanks for sticking with your principles, spineless Democrats. You could have just run out the clock but you caved.
2013-01-01 12:00:26 PM  
1 votes:
Obama you suck ass.
 
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