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(CBS New York)   Deal in Senate reached. Like the cartoon characters they are, wily Senators run off cliff, hang in midair, turn around, spin wheels, return to cliff   (newyork.cbslocal.com ) divider line
    More: Followup, senator, Senate, White House, Eisenhower Executive Office Building, President Obama, itemized deductions, Earned Income Tax Credit  
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9714 clicks; posted to Politics » on 31 Dec 2012 at 9:23 PM (4 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

2012-12-31 10:31:35 PM  
8 votes:

Ravijn: [i.imgur.com image 730x973]


You do realize that much of the new debt is owed to US Citizens, yes? This idea that we're talking about a household budget is silly... we don't need to reduce the level of discourse to something more easily comprehended, we need to get smart enough to follow complex issues.
2012-12-31 10:31:55 PM  
7 votes:

Ravijn: [i.imgur.com image 730x973]


Thanks for posting that. It reminded me that who ever made that has no farking clue how the debt ceiling works.

It also shows me that they would never consider the option that the family in that example would take a second job to bring more revenue into their household because cutting spending alone would not resolve that much debt.
2012-12-31 09:29:59 PM  
7 votes:
It would perhaps improve the situation if all the elected reps who have seen this coming for over a year and have *still* not been able to do anything productive to prevent it, were placed in a large bus and driven off a real cliff.

Well, maybe that's too drastic.

Can we at least lock them all in the congress building until they demonstrate that they can play nicely together and get some work done?
2012-12-31 10:57:46 PM  
5 votes:

NeoCortex42: Thunderpipes: firefly212: Ravijn: [i.imgur.com image 730x973]

You do realize that much of the new debt is owed to US Citizens, yes? This idea that we're talking about a household budget is silly... we don't need to reduce the level of discourse to something more easily comprehended, we need to get smart enough to follow complex issues.

Issue is not complex.

We are spending a trillion or more a year that we do not have, we borrow to cover it.
We owe over 16 trillion and claiming.
Interest on the debt alone will approach 500 billion a year by the time the Messiah is done with us.
We would have to have at least a 500 billion dollar surplus to begin to pay down the 20 trillion (by the time the Holy One is done) debt.

Bottom line is, we are screwed unless we make severe cuts, and broaden the tax base. Taxing the rich won't even make a dent and will hurt growth.

Too bad nobody gave a shiat about the debt before he took over.


Bottom line is GDP is growing, cutting taxes on the rich produced nearly no discernable increase in GDP growth, and 40 of the highest earning 500 people in the US paid ZERO in taxes. Pipes uses vague terms like "broaden the base" to talk about how we need to tell poor people they cant have their bread because the government needs to take their money and give it to government contractors. People like me say "broaden the base" to mean an end to offshoring income tax schemes like the one that nets GE more than a billion taxpayer dollars a year, and end the tax hate on people who work for a living by making an investment of life (work) equal in terms of investment of money (capital)... he talks about the need to make things fair by letting the poor die off... I talk about the need to make things fair by taxing realized capital gains and income equally. His big idea is to destroy the system that produced nearly 70 straight years of good results, my idea is to fix the cracks in the system the way FDR did. He's a nihilist who thinks that we can't do anything right together, I'm an optimist who thinks that if we actually work the problem, instead of the ideology, we can realize the greatness that our country has relentlessly pursued since its inception.
2012-12-31 10:52:44 PM  
5 votes:

Thunderpipes: firefly212: Ravijn: [i.imgur.com image 730x973]

You do realize that much of the new debt is owed to US Citizens, yes? This idea that we're talking about a household budget is silly... we don't need to reduce the level of discourse to something more easily comprehended, we need to get smart enough to follow complex issues.

Issue is not complex.

We are spending a trillion or more a year that we do not have, we borrow to cover it.
We owe over 16 trillion and claiming.
Interest on the debt alone will approach 500 billion a year by the time the Messiah is done with us.
We would have to have at least a 500 billion dollar surplus to begin to pay down the 20 trillion (by the time the Holy One is done) debt.

Bottom line is, we are screwed unless we make severe cuts, and broaden the tax base. Taxing the rich won't even make a dent and will hurt growth.


Love how no one cared about the debt until Obama was in office. Nor did anyone think it was a bad idea for Bush to cut taxes at the same time he out two wars on a credit card. But now that we're trying to do something about both, people like you have to biatch and cry about how horrible the person you hate is for doing something about it.

You say to cut spending, yet whenever someone mentions the most bloated part of America's spending, the massive defense budget, the right immediately goes insane and screams that we musn't touch it lest the brown people with their Muslim ways invade and completely assimilate America like Middle Eastern Borg. Then they turn around and demand that all social safety systems be abolished and that will magically fix everything.
2012-12-31 09:38:14 PM  
4 votes:

MrGMan: GAT_00: So House Republicans agree to raise everyone's taxes.

Everyone already agreed to raise everyone's taxes when the last 'solution' was passed by Congress and signed into law by Obama...they also agreed on spending cuts.

Now they can all agree to lower everyone's taxes in January...and watch sequestration scrape things to the bone until Congress gets around to it...


The tax raises have always been in the books since the Bush era tax cuts... when the cuts were written, the GOP way of getting around rules regarding revenue allocation and the number of votes needed was to make it a temporary measure... this was the grand-daddy of all "stimulus" plans... they sold it as a temporary measure to bolster the economy... then they kept pressing and pressing to make it permanent later. This bill, and most others like it, will almost always have the temporary tag on them, actually balancing the books would be an unheard of thing for either party.
2012-12-31 09:28:25 PM  
4 votes:
No. Fiscal cliff. We've been kicking this can down the road for far too long and we have to make cuts and sacrifices. This is utter bullshiat.
/traitors
//hang up 'em and let em burn
2013-01-01 01:38:31 AM  
3 votes:
So... this is not terribly surprising. Politicians love to spend (both sides) but they dislike taxes. So they borrow and spend. So they reached a fiscal-theater deal in taxes are generally raised to pre-Bush Tax Cut levels. Their spending powers are undamaged. They get their power from spending. And they're not going to voluntarily reduce their power, it's not in their nature.

So, what next? The House has to pass it. That's not a given but it seems like it could happen. Then what? The remaining credit rating agencies downgrade the US's rating (S&P downgrade the US on 25 August 2011. Almost immediate the SEC and Justice Department launched investigations into S&P. Approximately 2 weeks later, the S&P CEO stepped down. This is hardball).

Will that force interest rates up? The US government is concerned with its borrowing costs. However, the Central Bank of the United States, the Federal Reserve, buys about 90% of all government debt. They are doing it in an "unsterilized" fashion, meaning they're growing their balance sheet (printing money) instead of selling existing debt to get cash to purchase new debt, as they'd been doing.

That will keep government borrowing costs down. However, money printing to increase the wealth level of a society has been tried around the world. Printing money without a commensurate increase in physical wealth, in an attempt to increase the wealth of a society, doesn't end well.

The Fed however is actively trying to spark inflation concerns in an attempt to get people and corporations to spend money. The cost of food, energy, housing, medical care, education have all been significantly increasing. However, it is masked by manufactured goods not being more expensive, as they are manufactured in low cost locales like China and the developing world. However, as some observer noted, "I can't eat an iPad."

The problem is that the Fed's government debt buying and its mortgage-backed-security (MBS) buying results in winners and losers chosen by it, not the market. And central planning has been tried in the past, again with negative consequences.

So, what's going to happen in 2013? It's unclear. There's a global crisis caused by bad debt. What's going on now is trying to determine who the bagholders for that debt will be. Most likely it will be the taxpayers of the various countries, with the financial companies continuing to be flush with cash from the public treasuries.

The ostensible theory behind all these actions is that the debt can be reduced as a percent of GDP, just like it was after World War II. No actual debt was paid off, it just became a small, sustainable part of GDP. However, we are not facing the same situation today as we were after WWII. Then, the rest of the world lay in ruins and the US was reaching the peak of empire. Today, the US is a mature, stagnant economy, like Europe and Japan, while the 3rd world is rapidly growing. But hoping to grow out of debt is the most palatable option for both the citizens of the world and the politicians around the world.

It remains to be seen if it works. However, it's a bit of a racket too. "A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small inside group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses." Always follow the money to understand what is really going on. The leaders of the Federal Reserve, powerful politicians, all wipe their behinds just like the rest of us. They're self-interested, and the fruits of their actions speak louder than their words, always. If their actions are consistently enriching certain companies and sectors while doing nothing for the economy at large, it's not an accident.
2012-12-31 11:02:41 PM  
3 votes:

Ravijn: [i.imgur.com image 730x973]


Funny. But anyone who equates our national budget with a household budget is seriously in need of a brain transplant.
2012-12-31 10:33:10 PM  
3 votes:

firefly212: Ravijn: [i.imgur.com image 730x973]

You do realize that much of the new debt is owed to US Citizens, yes? This idea that we're talking about a household budget is silly... we don't need to reduce the level of discourse to something more easily comprehended, we need to get smart enough to follow complex issues.


Yeah, we also have to remember that people never take second jobs when they're in that much debt.

EVER!
2012-12-31 10:25:07 PM  
3 votes:

firefly212: Krieghund: firefly212: Doesn't matter, House isn't in... maybe they'll come back tomorrow to vote... maybe not... they've got far more important things to do than be bothered with governing the peasants.

Whenever they do it they can make it retroactive to January 1, 2013.

Which is fantastic... my withholding rate will be higher on friday, and I'm struggling to pay for food and drugs... but that's super if I'll be retroactively able to afford them... jacking peoples taxes up, then retroactively lowering them is great, if you can wait to get that money back... which is super, if you're part of the class the GOP cares about... but if you actually need the money you work for, well, f#@k you.


I know where you could free up $5 next month.
2012-12-31 10:24:35 PM  
3 votes:
24.media.tumblr.com

Prince Joey B gettin it done again

/best VP since LBJ
2012-12-31 09:38:22 PM  
3 votes:
Interesting. They actually permanently changed the AMT.

And, it looks like they implemented half of the desired high income tax changes with an expectation to phase in the 250k level.

Also, capital gains on rich people.

Surprised at the long extensions for some of the credits.
2012-12-31 09:36:21 PM  
3 votes:
Now we get to watch the House poop on it?
2012-12-31 09:26:47 PM  
3 votes:
Doesn't matter, House isn't in... maybe they'll come back tomorrow to vote... maybe not... they've got far more important things to do than be bothered with governing the peasants.
2012-12-31 09:25:37 PM  
3 votes:
So House Republicans agree to raise everyone's taxes.
2013-01-01 05:23:09 AM  
2 votes:

Yoyo: FTA: "The deal would allow for tax hikes on wealthier Americans, while delaying spending cuts for two months."

Damn it! You mean we have to put up with this useless, meaningless, political BS all over again in two more months? How are congress so scientifical when it comes to getting elected, yet completely idiot when it come to something like the national budget. Argh!


The national debt doesn't get a vote. It also doesn't get upset about two guys kissing or the writing of pre-scientific cultures that believed in a sky wizard living in the clouds.
2013-01-01 01:05:48 AM  
2 votes:
I got it..GOP House returns on Wednesday (after taxes go up) and then agrees to drop them back to what they are today. Claiming the saved USA taxes.
assets0.ordienetworks.com
2013-01-01 12:33:42 AM  
2 votes:

naris: Ravijn: ...there has been a sewer backup in you neighboorhood and you home has sewage all the way up to the ceiling, do you:
a) Raise the ceiling
b) Remove the shiat

C) Buy a new house!



And Senate!
2013-01-01 12:08:51 AM  
2 votes:

Evil High Priest: Keizer_Ghidorah: Evil High Priest: Obama can't even shoot the hostage in the leg. Loser.

Actually, really, all he had to do was nothing. And nothing proved too tricky for him.

He can't even breathe without somebody shiatting himself in hatred and fear over it. Wouldn't have mattered how he handled this. The right swore to do anything to defeat their self-proclaimed nemesis, and they're damn well gonna do it, even if they have to destroy America itself in the process.

Yes, but all he (and the Dems) had to do was.. nothing. If they had simply done nothing for another few hours, they would have gotten a much better deal in three days or so. Incompetence can only go so far.


And if the Democrats at least attempt to make a deal but the GOP still fails to compromise, the Democrats gain more faith with the electorate but still get what they want. The Democrats are building their brand to make themselves an actually choiec for disenfranchised GOP voters more than they have already. Unfortunately, the GOP is still maintaining their brand.
2012-12-31 11:34:34 PM  
2 votes:

Krieghund: Whenever they do it they can make it retroactive to January 1, 2013.


That won't matter to foreign markets in the meantime. They can't trust this Congress, given the debt ceiling debacle last time.
2012-12-31 11:33:36 PM  
2 votes:

Ravijn: [i.imgur.com image 730x973]



The person who created that doesn't understand either subject at all.

Lesson 1: To make that a proper analogy, you would have to add the opportunity at a "job promotion" which would represent tax increases on the wealthiest Americans who can easily afford it. If you had that personal budget, would you turn down a job promotion with increased pay? No you would not. That's the close-minded Republican way of looking at things, though -- the only solution is to cut spending. They blew up the debt just so they could cut social programs they don't want -- it has nothing to do with being practical and everything to do with cynical politics.

Lesson 2: The debt limit has nothing to do with whether we take on more debt. It's whether we're going to PAY FOR WHAT WE'VE ALREADY BORROWED. The writer of that document shows a shocking inability to have figured this out since this meme was first spread by the GOP during that bullshiat fight. You would think that after the GOP purposely got our credit rating downgraded that the faux-intellectual moron who wrote that would take the time to figure out what it actually means. The proper analogy for the debt limit is: Your credit card bill is due; do you pay it, or do you declare bankruptcy and financially f*ck yourself? Regardless of whether you cut future spending, you still have to pay the f*cking bill that's due.

People are so retarded...
2012-12-31 11:27:03 PM  
2 votes:
That "if it were a person's debt issue" picture bothers me since they under report the spending cuts by an entire magnitude of 10...totally by accident.

Also, anyone struggling like that would be told to cut spending and get an extra job for revenue.
2012-12-31 11:23:19 PM  
2 votes:

GAT_00: Ugh, these farktards agreed to kick the can down the road two months?  I knew the President would farking cave, worthless piece of shiat.  We've got to do this shiat again now, and with the debt ceiling, so now the GOP will hold the entire country hostage with it.

You worthless farking retard.


eh, better than you think... right now, the GOP just gave up 600B in new revenues without actually committing to any spending cuts... so now even if we get a 1:1 ratio in 60 days with the debt ceiling and the other votes, the President will get a much more favorable deal than he would have had he done it all as part of one "grand bargain." deal... he's not quite as stupid as he looks.
2012-12-31 11:21:45 PM  
2 votes:

Evil High Priest: Obama can't even shoot the hostage in the leg. Loser.

Actually, really, all he had to do was nothing. And nothing proved too tricky for him.


He can't even breathe without somebody shiatting himself in hatred and fear over it. Wouldn't have mattered how he handled this. The right swore to do anything to defeat their self-proclaimed nemesis, and they're damn well gonna do it, even if they have to destroy America itself in the process.
2012-12-31 11:18:12 PM  
2 votes:
Obama can't even shoot the hostage in the leg. Loser.

Actually, really, all he had to do was nothing. And nothing proved too tricky for him.
2012-12-31 11:09:02 PM  
2 votes:
Well the Tea Party helped get the House Republicans checkmated. Good job!

If they dont pass what the senate passed then its going to be all their fault and no one else.

The party of NO is getting whats coming to them
2012-12-31 10:57:31 PM  
2 votes:

Thunderpipes: Interest on the debt alone will approach 500 billion a year by the time the Messiah is done with us.



Is that what they're calling the Rothschilds these days?
2012-12-31 10:50:34 PM  
2 votes:

Mrtraveler01: Ravijn: [i.imgur.com image 730x973]

Thanks for posting that. It reminded me that who ever made that has no farking clue how the debt ceiling works.

It also shows me that they would never consider the option that the family in that example would take a second job to bring more revenue into their household because cutting spending alone would not resolve that much debt.


Not to mention that "remove the shiat" isn't what's on the table. When the debt ceiling comes around, the choices are raise the ceiling or let the shiat blow through the walls and windows, causing permanent damage. I literally used that response when my sister brought up seeing that on her facebook the other day while we were all together for the holidays.
2012-12-31 10:44:36 PM  
2 votes:
I know that the Senate plan raises the capital gains rate back to 20%, but does it address taxing dividend income as ordinary income?  My understanding is that if we went over the cliff, dividend income reverts to "ordinary" income for taxation purposes.

Honestly, if we started taxing dividend income as ordinary income, we could probably keep the existing tax brackets and still take in more revenue than we are now.
2012-12-31 10:40:18 PM  
2 votes:
How to understand the national debt and budget deficit - and why it's not as big a problem as you might think.
2012-12-31 10:38:36 PM  
2 votes:

Thunderpipes: Taxing the rich won't even make a dent and will hurt growth.


But taxing the poor and middle class won't hurt growth?

Gotta love the weasel language like "broadening the base".
2012-12-31 10:31:30 PM  
2 votes:
Remember the days when you had a big essay due and it was the difference between passing and failing a paper? And you had plenty of warning, but you only really start to work on it the weekend before it was due? This is like that. Except times a million.
2012-12-31 10:29:29 PM  
2 votes:
So what. The Senate actually passed a bill to fix the "cliff" last July. The house would not even allow it to be brought up for a vote.
2012-12-31 10:28:38 PM  
2 votes:
i.imgur.com
2012-12-31 10:21:10 PM  
2 votes:

The Evil That Lies In The Hearts Of Men: All we need now is some firm leadership in the House to unite our representatives to vote for the common good of the American people and show to the world that we can get our shiat together.


Leadership... in the House... I'd be less surprised to see rhinoceroses wandering the mountains of Colorado.
2012-12-31 10:20:34 PM  
2 votes:
Speaking shortly afterward on the Senate floor, Sen. John McCain said that "at a time of crisis, on New Year's Eve-you had the president of the United States go over and have a cheerleading, ridiculing-of-Republicans exercise."

Deservedly so, motherfarker ...
2012-12-31 10:06:31 PM  
2 votes:
24.media.tumblr.com
2012-12-31 10:03:13 PM  
2 votes:

Amos Quito: Government is like sharing a sleeping bag with a porcupine.

The less it moves, the better.


Government is like sharing a sleeping bag with a porcupine that sleeps near your crotch.

In general the less it moves, the better, but when it HAS to move ideally it should move so as to not stab your penis.
2012-12-31 09:49:40 PM  
2 votes:
i906.photobucket.com
2012-12-31 09:46:57 PM  
2 votes:

bulldg4life: firefly212: Krieghund: firefly212: Doesn't matter, House isn't in... maybe they'll come back tomorrow to vote... maybe not... they've got far more important things to do than be bothered with governing the peasants.

Whenever they do it they can make it retroactive to January 1, 2013.

Which is fantastic... my withholding rate will be higher on friday, and I'm struggling to pay for food and drugs... but that's super if I'll be retroactively able to afford them... jacking peoples taxes up, then retroactively lowering them is great, if you can wait to get that money back... which is super, if you're part of the class the GOP cares about... but if you actually need the money you work for, well, f#@k you.

Exactly how much is your withholding going to change on one paycheck to make the difference between you paying for food and not doing it?


A LOT of families live paycheck to paycheck, and even the difference of 20 bucks can be a big deal..
2012-12-31 09:43:14 PM  
2 votes:

Krieghund: firefly212: Doesn't matter, House isn't in... maybe they'll come back tomorrow to vote... maybe not... they've got far more important things to do than be bothered with governing the peasants.

Whenever they do it they can make it retroactive to January 1, 2013.


Which is fantastic... my withholding rate will be higher on friday, and I'm struggling to pay for food and drugs... but that's super if I'll be retroactively able to afford them... jacking peoples taxes up, then retroactively lowering them is great, if you can wait to get that money back... which is super, if you're part of the class the GOP cares about... but if you actually need the money you work for, well, f#@k you.
2012-12-31 09:28:39 PM  
2 votes:

NeverDrunk23: Any references to The Price is Right and the cliffhanger game during this topic?


Great now the yodeling is stuck in my head.

Now you all must suffer!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DI2GGYppq7E
2012-12-31 09:28:22 PM  
2 votes:
Only the good ones, Subby, The bad ones hang in mid-air, hold up signs that say "yipes!", and then plummet to the ground.
2013-01-01 09:27:10 AM  
1 vote:
DNRTFT, but has anyone else mentioned yet that Wile E. Coyote NEVER makes it back to the cliff after going off of it, that it's always long fall & a dust cloud at the bottom of the canyon?  Because that's what I feel like we're watching here....
2013-01-01 06:26:04 AM  
1 vote:

phrawgh: 89 for and 8 against... Which 3 senators had better things to do?


Frank Lautenberg (D-NJ), Mark Kirk (R-IL), and Jim DeMint (R-SC) did not vote.

There's the first 3 who need not to be reelected. Best option would be to vote out all 100 and clean house.
It won't happen and it's our fault.

/FTFM
2013-01-01 05:27:32 AM  
1 vote:

Ravijn: [i.imgur.com image 730x973]


That's stupid. Not raising the debt ceiling is a lot like refusing to pay for the food you already ate.. except on a far larger scale. If you want to decrease spending, you do it when you write the budget, not when it's time to pay for the budget you wrote.
2013-01-01 03:43:52 AM  
1 vote:

JungleBoogie: But money printing to increase a society's wealth level without a commensurate increase in its actual wealth doesn't end well.


Please give us examples where it didn't end well.

Difficulty: No, Germany's hyper-inflation doesn't count, because they weren't trying to increase wealth, they were intentionally devaluing their currency to pay off the reparations of the Treaty of Versailles.

No, Uganda doesn't count, again not a policy intended to increase wealth.

No, the inflation of the 1970s doesn't count, because that was due to an oil price shock.

So please, give me some examples.

Right now it makes sense to crank up inflation a few points. There are consequences - pushes down savings rates, for one thing, and creates some problems for seniors living off of their savings.

But it knocks down the federal debt, it solves much of the problem of underwater mortgages (and that is a huge, huge problem). In turn, by easing the housing problems it creates more flexibility in labor markets (if your home is no longer underwater, you can sell it and move to change jobs). An extra three points for, oh six years, and with compounding you've whacked more than a fifth off of the national debt and cured about half the underwater mortgages.
2013-01-01 02:43:23 AM  
1 vote:
The Bush/Obama tax cuts should have all expired tonight, returning us to the tax rates last seen at the end of the Clinton years when we very nearly had a balanced budget. All the Democrats had to do to achieve this goal, was NOTHING.

Instead, they cut a deal that allows the tax rate on the vast majority of income for the obscenely wealthy (Capital Gains) to barely inch up to 20%. Jebus Tittyfarking Christ, someone who only makes 35K from a regular job gets taxed at a higher rate than that!

(n what world should the obscenely wealthy continue to be taxed at a lower rate than the working poor? In a world where the obscenely wealthy own both parties, obviously.
2013-01-01 02:37:15 AM  
1 vote:

firefly212: GAT_00: Ugh, these farktards agreed to kick the can down the road two months?  I knew the President would farking cave, worthless piece of shiat.  We've got to do this shiat again now, and with the debt ceiling, so now the GOP will hold the entire country hostage with it.

You worthless farking retard.

eh, better than you think... right now, the GOP just gave up 600B in new revenues without actually committing to any spending cuts... so now even if we get a 1:1 ratio in 60 days with the debt ceiling and the other votes, the President will get a much more favorable deal than he would have had he done it all as part of one "grand bargain." deal... he's not quite as stupid as he looks.


Exactly.  The final piece of the package is the debt ceiling, and if the WH gets a 1:1 deal, he'll have reversed the tables on Boehner, and gotten "98%" of what the WH wanted.  And either way, the AMT gets fixed, cap gains goes up (at least nominally), UI is extended, and the payroll tax gimmick is finally shelved.

If the deal holds as is, this isn't actually that bad of an outcome.
2013-01-01 01:39:47 AM  
1 vote:

Mentat: Evil High Priest: Yes, but all he (and the Dems) had to do was.. nothing. If they had simply done nothing for another few hours, they would have gotten a much better deal in three days or so. Incompetence can only go so far.

I don't know what time zone you're in, but we went off the cliff 1.5 hours ago.  Nothing's been signed by the President, so officially the Dems did nothing.  If the GOP House refuses to pass the bill, you'll still get exactly what you want.  Chill out.  Wait until something is official before you blow your top.


I know right? I mean honestly - all this drama. Its ridiculous. Its all political theater.
2013-01-01 01:36:30 AM  
1 vote:

Evil High Priest: Yes, but all he (and the Dems) had to do was.. nothing. If they had simply done nothing for another few hours, they would have gotten a much better deal in three days or so. Incompetence can only go so far.


I don't know what time zone you're in, but we went off the cliff 1.5 hours ago.  Nothing's been signed by the President, so officially the Dems did nothing.  If the GOP House refuses to pass the bill, you'll still get exactly what you want.  Chill out.  Wait until something is official before you blow your top.
2013-01-01 01:28:18 AM  
1 vote:
FTA: "The deal would allow for tax hikes on wealthier Americans, while delaying spending cuts for two months."

Damn it! You mean we have to put up with this useless, meaningless, political BS all over again in two more months? How are congress so scientifical when it comes to getting elected, yet completely idiot when it come to something like the national budget. Argh!
2013-01-01 12:44:02 AM  
1 vote:

bmihura: By not cutting spending, they essentially kicked the can down the road. You could tax everybody 100% (provided they could survive on air) and that wouldn't do jack to fix the debt.


GDP is far greater than our annual deficit... I'm fine with you having a different position than me, but I'm not at all ok with you having different mathematics.
2013-01-01 12:43:55 AM  
1 vote:

GAT_00: Shaved, not saved.


Fark is not your personal erotica site.
2013-01-01 12:32:26 AM  
1 vote:
So can we ffs stop hearing about the "fiscal cliff" and go on to something else?
2013-01-01 12:28:59 AM  
1 vote:
GOPers in the House want the country to go over the cliff. Boner can even control his own conference. Dude is bad at his job.

/HAPPY NEW YEAR YOU farkERS!
2013-01-01 12:28:25 AM  
1 vote:

sonnyboy11: Too bad. I was all set for the "cliff".


Well, technically speaking, since the House won't vote on this until tomorrow (it's still 12/31 in the Central Time Zone where I am typing this from), we would go over the cliff for about 12 hours or so.
2013-01-01 12:27:01 AM  
1 vote:

naris: Ravijn: ...there has been a sewer backup in you neighboorhood and you home has sewage all the way up to the ceiling, do you:
a) Raise the ceiling
b) Remove the shiat

C) Buy a new house!


shiat hit the ceiling fan... ???

www.morningstaronline.co.uk
2013-01-01 12:14:52 AM  
1 vote:
Blame the new guy with the weird name down the street and take his house.
2013-01-01 12:05:43 AM  
1 vote:

Keizer_Ghidorah: Evil High Priest: Obama can't even shoot the hostage in the leg. Loser.

Actually, really, all he had to do was nothing. And nothing proved too tricky for him.

He can't even breathe without somebody shiatting himself in hatred and fear over it. Wouldn't have mattered how he handled this. The right swore to do anything to defeat their self-proclaimed nemesis, and they're damn well gonna do it, even if they have to destroy America itself in the process.


Yes, but all he (and the Dems) had to do was.. nothing. If they had simply done nothing for another few hours, they would have gotten a much better deal in three days or so. Incompetence can only go so far.
2013-01-01 12:01:35 AM  
1 vote:
happy fiscal cliff!
2012-12-31 11:51:25 PM  
1 vote:
Not sure what people are complaining about. This seems like a much better deal than I was expecting. In particular, the AMT has needed fixing for 20 years and has been put off every year. If they finally fix it permanently with this, that alone was worth all of this 'cliff' nonsense.

I think the markets will like it too. Assuming it passes the House, of course.
2012-12-31 11:42:58 PM  
1 vote:

GAT_00: You remember last time we had to deal with spending cuts and the debt ceiling? It saved at least a percentage point off of our GDP just from the whole debate and people stopped spending?

Now we get to do it again because the President is an IDIOT. the GOP won't tax rich people.


See how that works? It's almost like there's two political parties with different goals here and America is the playing field.

No one at the top cares about the details of day to day life for the little people outside of leverage to get votes by. They all got theirs and they got it in perpetuity. It don't matter what happens any which way to them, really. This is all a game. The stakes are high, but they all have a parachute.
2012-12-31 11:42:47 PM  
1 vote:

GAT_00: firefly212: GAT_00: Ugh, these farktards agreed to kick the can down the road two months?  I knew the President would farking cave, worthless piece of shiat.  We've got to do this shiat again now, and with the debt ceiling, so now the GOP will hold the entire country hostage with it.

You worthless farking retard.

eh, better than you think... right now, the GOP just gave up 600B in new revenues without actually committing to any spending cuts... so now even if we get a 1:1 ratio in 60 days with the debt ceiling and the other votes, the President will get a much more favorable deal than he would have had he done it all as part of one "grand bargain." deal... he's not quite as stupid as he looks.

You remember last time we had to deal with spending cuts and the debt ceiling?  It saved at least a percentage point off of our GDP just from the whole debate and people stopped spending?

Now we get to do it again because the President is an IDIOT.


I don't think we're gonna get the same positions as last time, the President won his election, the GOP lost house seats and senate seats... aside from that, especially coming out of this deal, the President looks like a guy willing to negotiate, so if the GOP plays their hostage games again, I don't think they're gonna like the results... they'll get hammered even harder than they did during the Clinton days. Either way, when you get 80 percent of what you want, it's not a bad day.
2012-12-31 11:40:36 PM  
1 vote:
static.seekingalpha.com

If this isn't all over the Intertubes by dawn tomorrow, it should be goddamn it!
2012-12-31 11:21:37 PM  
1 vote:

KarmicDisaster: GAT_00: Ugh, these farktards agreed to kick the can down the road two months?  I knew the President would farking cave, worthless piece of shiat.  We've got to do this shiat again now, and with the debt ceiling, so now the GOP will hold the entire country hostage with it.

You worthless farking retard.

GOP knows that without hostages, they have nothing, so they can't kill them all at once.


I know they'll do that.  I'm pissed at the President and Democrats for caving like worthless little farking pussies when they had no reason to do so and now we have to do this shiat again.
2012-12-31 11:17:15 PM  
1 vote:

The Evil That Lies In The Hearts Of Men: jackrazz: I know that the Senate plan raises the capital gains rate back to 20%, but does it address taxing dividend income as ordinary income?  My understanding is that if we went over the cliff, dividend income reverts to "ordinary" income for taxation purposes.

Honestly, if we started taxing dividend income as ordinary income, we could probably keep the existing tax brackets and still take in more revenue than we are now.

According to TFA it keeps it like Capital Gains - so 15% for the plebs and 20% for the wealthy.


Ugh.  That's terrible.  Dividend income should be taxed the same way as ordinary income.  Not doing so gives the 1% a far greater tax cut than any bracket ever could.  It's also cutting out the most sure-fire method of raising revenue that would affect the least number of people.

I was okay with Obama agreeing ot a new bracket level at $400/$450, but this is a failure to properly use political capital and the bully pulpit if he caves on dividend tax rates.
2012-12-31 11:15:57 PM  
1 vote:

GAT_00: Ugh, these farktards agreed to kick the can down the road two months?  I knew the President would farking cave, worthless piece of shiat.  We've got to do this shiat again now, and with the debt ceiling, so now the GOP will hold the entire country hostage with it.

You worthless farking retard.


GOP knows that without hostages, they have nothing, so they can't kill them all at once.
2012-12-31 11:14:15 PM  
1 vote:
Ugh, these farktards agreed to kick the can down the road two months?  I knew the President would farking cave, worthless piece of shiat.  We've got to do this shiat again now, and with the debt ceiling, so now the GOP will hold the entire country hostage with it.

You worthless farking retard.
2012-12-31 11:10:02 PM  
1 vote:

Bonzo_1116: just_intonation: A Shambling Mound: As we enter this bright new year, we should pause to reflect upon the debt of gratitude we owe to our fearless leaders who have worked tirelessly and selflessly in the face of insurmountable odds. Though it took all the grit, determination and self-sacrifice they could muster they have come together for the betterment of our great nation. Together. Together we shall all share in a better tomorrow.

Except for themselves, who get a pay raise from Obama no matter what.

Too bad this didn't come due on November 1. Might have changed the outcomes of many elections...


LOLOLOLOL.

Look who thinks the executive branch decides what the legislative branch pays itself.


Technically Obama signed an executive order ending a 3-year pay freeze for the entire federal government, including Congress, so yeah.
2012-12-31 11:08:56 PM  
1 vote:
Evil High Priest: Ravijn: [i.imgur.com image 730x973]

Funny. But anyone who equates our national budget with a household budget is seriously in need of a brain transplant.


panem et circenses
2012-12-31 11:02:40 PM  
1 vote:

firefly212: Bottom line is GDP is growing, cutting taxes on the rich produced nearly no discernable increase in GDP growth, and 40 of the highest earning 500 people in the US paid ZERO in taxes. Pipes uses vague terms like "broaden the base" to talk about how we need to tell poor people they cant have their bread because the government needs to take their money and give it to government contractors. People like me say "broaden the base" to mean an end to offshoring income tax schemes like the one that nets GE more than a billion taxpayer dollars a year, and end the tax hate on people who work for a living by making an investment of life (work) equal in terms of investment of money (capital)... he talks about the need to make things fair by letting the poor die off... I talk about the need to make things fair by taxing realized capital gains and income equally. His big idea is to destroy the system that produced nearly 70 straight years of good results, my idea is to fix the cracks in the system the way FDR did. He's a nihilist who thinks that we can't do anything right together, I'm an optimist who thinks that if we actually work the problem, instead of the ideology, we can realize the greatness that our country has relentlessly pursued since its inception.


He's not a nihilist. He's a Koch whore.
2012-12-31 10:57:59 PM  
1 vote:
And, when Boehners does return I hope the Roadrunner/Wily Coyote story runs its course as a nice, big Acme safe drops on his bronzed head.
2012-12-31 10:51:47 PM  
1 vote:

RminusQ: Mrtraveler01: Ravijn: [i.imgur.com image 730x973]

Thanks for posting that. It reminded me that who ever made that has no farking clue how the debt ceiling works.

It also shows me that they would never consider the option that the family in that example would take a second job to bring more revenue into their household because cutting spending alone would not resolve that much debt.

Not to mention that "remove the shiat" isn't what's on the table. When the debt ceiling comes around, the choices are raise the ceiling or let the shiat blow through the walls and windows, causing permanent damage. I literally used that response when my sister brought up seeing that on her facebook the other day while we were all together for the holidays.


What was the response when you told them that?

/just curious
2012-12-31 10:49:42 PM  
1 vote:

just_intonation: A Shambling Mound: As we enter this bright new year, we should pause to reflect upon the debt of gratitude we owe to our fearless leaders who have worked tirelessly and selflessly in the face of insurmountable odds. Though it took all the grit, determination and self-sacrifice they could muster they have come together for the betterment of our great nation. Together. Together we shall all share in a better tomorrow.

Except for themselves, who get a pay raise from Obama no matter what.

Too bad this didn't come due on November 1. Might have changed the outcomes of many elections...



LOLOLOLOL.

Look who thinks the executive branch decides what the legislative branch pays itself.
2012-12-31 10:49:07 PM  
1 vote:

jackrazz: I know that the Senate plan raises the capital gains rate back to 20%, but does it address taxing dividend income as ordinary income?  My understanding is that if we went over the cliff, dividend income reverts to "ordinary" income for taxation purposes.

Honestly, if we started taxing dividend income as ordinary income, we could probably keep the existing tax brackets and still take in more revenue than we are now.


According to TFA it keeps it like Capital Gains - so 15% for the plebs and 20% for the wealthy.
2012-12-31 10:48:54 PM  
1 vote:

NeoCortex42: Thunderpipes: firefly212: Ravijn: [i.imgur.com image 730x973]

You do realize that much of the new debt is owed to US Citizens, yes? This idea that we're talking about a household budget is silly... we don't need to reduce the level of discourse to something more easily comprehended, we need to get smart enough to follow complex issues.

Issue is not complex.

We are spending a trillion or more a year that we do not have, we borrow to cover it.
We owe over 16 trillion and claiming.
Interest on the debt alone will approach 500 billion a year by the time the Messiah is done with us.
We would have to have at least a 500 billion dollar surplus to begin to pay down the 20 trillion (by the time the Holy One is done) debt.

Bottom line is, we are screwed unless we make severe cuts, and broaden the tax base. Taxing the rich won't even make a dent and will hurt growth.

Too bad nobody gave a shiat about the debt before he took over.


Clinton did.
2012-12-31 10:48:40 PM  
1 vote:

thisispete: Remember the days when you had a big essay due and it was the difference between passing and failing a paper? And you had plenty of warning, but you only really start to work on it the weekend before it was due? This is like that. Except times a million.


No- it's nothing like that. It's more like a necessary but hard-negotiated business deal, or a timed auction where nobody makes REAL bids until the last few minutes.

The operative goal here is not producing some intellectual product (like a school essay). It's a sheer fight over who gets what.

It was obvious early on in this that no deal was going to be reached until the very last minute (although nobody knew it would literally happen today- or MAYBE happen). In part, this is why I avoided the news about this whenever possible. It was all just Kabuki theater.

It may appear (even be) demeaning and degrading. But it is rational, for both sides. Neither side in this debate had maximum leverage over the other, until almost at the end. And neither side had the incentive to lay out what it would REALLY accept until then.
2012-12-31 10:40:42 PM  
1 vote:

Thunderpipes: firefly212: Ravijn: [i.imgur.com image 730x973]

You do realize that much of the new debt is owed to US Citizens, yes? This idea that we're talking about a household budget is silly... we don't need to reduce the level of discourse to something more easily comprehended, we need to get smart enough to follow complex issues.

Issue is not complex.

We are spending a trillion or more a year that we do not have, we borrow to cover it.
We owe over 16 trillion and claiming.
Interest on the debt alone will approach 500 billion a year by the time the Messiah is done with us.
We would have to have at least a 500 billion dollar surplus to begin to pay down the 20 trillion (by the time the Holy One is done) debt.

Bottom line is, we are screwed unless we make severe cuts, and broaden the tax base. Taxing the rich won't even make a dent and will hurt growth.


Too bad nobody gave a shiat about the debt before he took over.
2012-12-31 10:37:17 PM  
1 vote:

firefly212: Ravijn: [i.imgur.com image 730x973]

You do realize that much of the new debt is owed to US Citizens, yes? This idea that we're talking about a household budget is silly... we don't need to reduce the level of discourse to something more easily comprehended, we need to get smart enough to follow complex issues.


Issue is not complex.

We are spending a trillion or more a year that we do not have, we borrow to cover it.
We owe over 16 trillion and claiming.
Interest on the debt alone will approach 500 billion a year by the time the Messiah is done with us.
We would have to have at least a 500 billion dollar surplus to begin to pay down the 20 trillion (by the time the Holy One is done) debt.

Bottom line is, we are screwed unless we make severe cuts, and broaden the tax base. Taxing the rich won't even make a dent and will hurt growth.
2012-12-31 10:36:11 PM  
1 vote:

Mrtraveler01: firefly212: Ravijn: [i.imgur.com image 730x973]

You do realize that much of the new debt is owed to US Citizens, yes? This idea that we're talking about a household budget is silly... we don't need to reduce the level of discourse to something more easily comprehended, we need to get smart enough to follow complex issues.

Yeah, we also have to remember that people never take second jobs when they're in that much debt.

EVER!


Nope, because you see, this 47%, they feel like they're entitled to see their children on a daily basis, to sleep six hours a day, and to end up with more money after working than a chinese slave being beaten with electric cables for 36 hours straight, and there's nothing Mitt Romney could say to change their mind and make them more bootstrappy.
2012-12-31 10:25:42 PM  
1 vote:

Goodfella: [24.media.tumblr.com image 450x311]

Prince Joey B gettin it done again

/best VP since LBJ


Behold, the power of Trans-Am One.
2012-12-31 10:22:22 PM  
1 vote:

Sock Ruh Tease: Amos Quito: Government is like sharing a sleeping bag with a porcupine.

The less it moves, the better.

Government is like sharing a sleeping bag with a porcupine that sleeps near your crotch.

In general the less it moves, the better, but when it HAS to move ideally it should move so as to not stab your penis.



Yeah well, there's always wishful thinking, I suppose.
2012-12-31 10:18:00 PM  
1 vote:

Infernalist: The deal can't be done without the okay from the House.


So will they really go Derp Pow: Enter the Herp? Or will a reasonable compromise win out in the end?
2012-12-31 10:11:21 PM  
1 vote:
is that college tuition tax credit retroactive? i'de like it to also apply to principal deductions based on past interest payed..

instead of just monetizing future non-dischargeable student debt of course .

worthless
2012-12-31 10:09:35 PM  
1 vote:
In best Counterpoint guy voice- I say let them crash
2012-12-31 10:05:41 PM  
1 vote:
Maybe it's just me, but fiscal cliff New Year's Eve isn't nearly as exciting as Y2K New Year's Eve.
2012-12-31 10:04:24 PM  
1 vote:

GAT_00: So House Republicans agree to raise everyone's taxes.


But they'll blame Obama.

A fool fights in a burning house. A group of ignorant asshats will burn the house down, blame someone else, and believe it.

/Congressional sociopaths
2012-12-31 10:03:15 PM  
1 vote:
The deal can't be done without the okay from the House.
2012-12-31 09:56:46 PM  
1 vote:

anwserman: No. Fiscal cliff. We've been kicking this can down the road for far too long and we have to make cuts and sacrifices. This is utter bullshiat.
/traitors
//hang up 'em and let em burn


This is called TREASON.
Hang 'em.
2012-12-31 09:52:56 PM  
1 vote:

Bio-nic: bulldg4life: firefly212: Krieghund: firefly212: Doesn't matter, House isn't in... maybe they'll come back tomorrow to vote... maybe not... they've got far more important things to do than be bothered with governing the peasants.

Whenever they do it they can make it retroactive to January 1, 2013.

Which is fantastic... my withholding rate will be higher on friday, and I'm struggling to pay for food and drugs... but that's super if I'll be retroactively able to afford them... jacking peoples taxes up, then retroactively lowering them is great, if you can wait to get that money back... which is super, if you're part of the class the GOP cares about... but if you actually need the money you work for, well, f#@k you.

Exactly how much is your withholding going to change on one paycheck to make the difference between you paying for food and not doing it?

A LOT of families live paycheck to paycheck, and even the difference of 20 bucks can be a big deal..


Well, if a trained economist is living paycheck to paycheck, I've got to believe he isn't very good.

He also mentions his extensive snowboarding and and bike work including days off to go snowboarding.

If that is living paycheck to paycheck, sign me up.

Or, perhaps he is just blowing smoke.
2012-12-31 09:50:16 PM  
1 vote:

firefly212: Krieghund: firefly212: Doesn't matter, House isn't in... maybe they'll come back tomorrow to vote... maybe not... they've got far more important things to do than be bothered with governing the peasants.

Whenever they do it they can make it retroactive to January 1, 2013.

Which is fantastic... my withholding rate will be higher on friday, and I'm struggling to pay for food and drugs... but that's super if I'll be retroactively able to afford them... jacking peoples taxes up, then retroactively lowering them is great, if you can wait to get that money back... which is super, if you're part of the class the GOP cares about... but if you actually need the money you work for, well, f#@k you.


Except your withholding rate will be exactly the same on Friday because for the moment they're still using 2012 rates.
2012-12-31 09:45:10 PM  
1 vote:

firefly212: Krieghund: firefly212: Doesn't matter, House isn't in... maybe they'll come back tomorrow to vote... maybe not... they've got far more important things to do than be bothered with governing the peasants.

Whenever they do it they can make it retroactive to January 1, 2013.

Which is fantastic... my withholding rate will be higher on friday, and I'm struggling to pay for food and drugs... but that's super if I'll be retroactively able to afford them... jacking peoples taxes up, then retroactively lowering them is great, if you can wait to get that money back... which is super, if you're part of the class the GOP cares about... but if you actually need the money you work for, well, f#@k you.


Exactly how much is your withholding going to change on one paycheck to make the difference between you paying for food and not doing it?
2012-12-31 09:39:42 PM  
1 vote:
CNN commentators wired like they've gone thru a case of Monster drinks, blathering on about this 'deal' stuff and saying nothing in particular. So they're kicking the can down the road. Yee-farking-ha. I'm tuning back to the game.
2012-12-31 09:38:42 PM  
1 vote:

RoyBatty: When I took a course in negotiations, I learned how many negotiations are signed on the last day, at the last minute, as it becomes just about too late to catch that airplane back to the States or the hometown.

The folks being rushed always lose the negotiation, always give away too much.


Which is to say, this would probably be the bad deal for the Repubicans, unless the Democrats were really terrible negotiators, but that's not what their history shows, is it. Is it?? (Sigh.)
2012-12-31 09:37:03 PM  
1 vote:
When I took a course in negotiations, I learned how many negotiations are signed on the last day, at the last minute, as it becomes just about too late to catch that airplane back to the States or the hometown.

The folks being rushed always lose the negotiation, always give away too much.
2012-12-31 09:30:17 PM  
1 vote:
I'm like half-surprised at this. Normally this is the end result to a 'crisis', but given how the Republicans have been shiatting their pants, they  did have incentive for it.
2012-12-31 09:27:35 PM  
1 vote:
Bohener just has to agree to bring his bawl back to the table.
2012-12-31 09:25:46 PM  
1 vote:
Fargin' Corksoakers.
2012-12-31 09:24:24 PM  
1 vote:
Too bad. I was all set for the "cliff".
 
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