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(CBS New York)   Deal in Senate reached. Like the cartoon characters they are, wily Senators run off cliff, hang in midair, turn around, spin wheels, return to cliff   (newyork.cbslocal.com) divider line 223
    More: Followup, senator, Senate, White House, Eisenhower Executive Office Building, President Obama, itemized deductions, Earned Income Tax Credit  
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9603 clicks; posted to Politics » on 31 Dec 2012 at 9:23 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-01-01 12:14:52 AM  
Blame the new guy with the weird name down the street and take his house.
 
2013-01-01 12:24:18 AM  
By not cutting spending, they essentially kicked the can down the road. You could tax everybody 100% (provided they could survive on air) and that wouldn't do jack to fix the debt.
 
2013-01-01 12:24:39 AM  
Loan the shiat to a series of off-shore subsidiaries and pretend their turning a profit by creating nominal interest payments on paper, it's the American way.
 
2013-01-01 12:25:03 AM  
At first, I thought the answer to all "why" questions was sex, too. Upon further investigation, I determined that it goes further down the rabbit hole.
 
2013-01-01 12:25:18 AM  
they're

fml
/cant believe I did that
//inexcusable, even after a 14 hour workday
 
2013-01-01 12:27:01 AM  

naris: Ravijn: ...there has been a sewer backup in you neighboorhood and you home has sewage all the way up to the ceiling, do you:
a) Raise the ceiling
b) Remove the shiat

C) Buy a new house!


shiat hit the ceiling fan... ???

www.morningstaronline.co.uk
 
2013-01-01 12:28:25 AM  

sonnyboy11: Too bad. I was all set for the "cliff".


Well, technically speaking, since the House won't vote on this until tomorrow (it's still 12/31 in the Central Time Zone where I am typing this from), we would go over the cliff for about 12 hours or so.
 
2013-01-01 12:28:59 AM  
GOPers in the House want the country to go over the cliff. Boner can even control his own conference. Dude is bad at his job.

/HAPPY NEW YEAR YOU farkERS!
 
2013-01-01 12:31:47 AM  
Are we over the cliff yet? Perhaps this weightless feeling is falling or im just drunk
 
2013-01-01 12:32:26 AM  
So can we ffs stop hearing about the "fiscal cliff" and go on to something else?
 
2013-01-01 12:33:42 AM  

naris: Ravijn: ...there has been a sewer backup in you neighboorhood and you home has sewage all the way up to the ceiling, do you:
a) Raise the ceiling
b) Remove the shiat

C) Buy a new house!



And Senate!
 
2013-01-01 12:36:42 AM  

bmihura: By not cutting spending, they essentially kicked the can down the road. You could tax everybody 100% (provided they could survive on air) and that wouldn't do jack to fix the debt.



But the coyote is fine as long as he doesn't KNOW that there is nothing but hot air between himself and the hard, dusty desert floor, right?
 
2013-01-01 12:43:55 AM  

GAT_00: Shaved, not saved.


Fark is not your personal erotica site.
 
2013-01-01 12:44:02 AM  

bmihura: By not cutting spending, they essentially kicked the can down the road. You could tax everybody 100% (provided they could survive on air) and that wouldn't do jack to fix the debt.


GDP is far greater than our annual deficit... I'm fine with you having a different position than me, but I'm not at all ok with you having different mathematics.
 
2013-01-01 12:44:54 AM  

Gyrfalcon: So can we ffs stop hearing about the "fiscal cliff" and go on to something else?


Maybe some dude will murder a black kid again...!
 
2013-01-01 12:53:47 AM  

Gyrfalcon: So can we ffs stop hearing about the "fiscal cliff" and go on to something else?


I heard something about this place called Benghazi or something.
 
2013-01-01 01:05:48 AM  
I got it..GOP House returns on Wednesday (after taxes go up) and then agrees to drop them back to what they are today. Claiming the saved USA taxes.
assets0.ordienetworks.com
 
2013-01-01 01:15:53 AM  

NeverDrunk23: Gyrfalcon: So can we ffs stop hearing about the "fiscal cliff" and go on to something else?

I heard something about this place called Benghazi or something.


Oh, honestly, something DIFFERENT.
 
2013-01-01 01:22:09 AM  
So if the House refuses to vote or turns down the offer (by what, 50% or is a super majority required?) what will happen then?
 
2013-01-01 01:26:43 AM  

Dr. DJ Duckhunt: So if the House refuses to vote or turns down the offer (by what, 50% or is a super majority required?) what will happen then?


the "fiscal cliff" goes into effect.
 
2013-01-01 01:27:22 AM  

Gyrfalcon: So can we ffs stop hearing about the "fiscal cliff" and go on to something else?


I like you and all that (you're on my favorites list actually) but no one made you click on this thread.

/Perhaps you should tarry on the Geek or Entertainment tabs for a spell.
//No offense.
///Seriously.
 
2013-01-01 01:28:18 AM  
FTA: "The deal would allow for tax hikes on wealthier Americans, while delaying spending cuts for two months."

Damn it! You mean we have to put up with this useless, meaningless, political BS all over again in two more months? How are congress so scientifical when it comes to getting elected, yet completely idiot when it come to something like the national budget. Argh!
 
2013-01-01 01:36:30 AM  

Evil High Priest: Yes, but all he (and the Dems) had to do was.. nothing. If they had simply done nothing for another few hours, they would have gotten a much better deal in three days or so. Incompetence can only go so far.


I don't know what time zone you're in, but we went off the cliff 1.5 hours ago.  Nothing's been signed by the President, so officially the Dems did nothing.  If the GOP House refuses to pass the bill, you'll still get exactly what you want.  Chill out.  Wait until something is official before you blow your top.
 
2013-01-01 01:36:46 AM  

Yoyo: FTA: "The deal would allow for tax hikes on wealthier Americans, while delaying spending cuts for two months."

Damn it! You mean we have to put up with this useless, meaningless, political BS all over again in two more months? How are congress so scientifical when it comes to getting elected, yet completely idiot when it come to something like the national budget. Argh!


No. The temporary Bush tax cuts end as they were meant to. The spending cuts get sorted out to some degree. and we all go on with our lives. Really its business as usual.

wait - "scientifical"? Have you been drinking?
 
2013-01-01 01:38:31 AM  
So... this is not terribly surprising. Politicians love to spend (both sides) but they dislike taxes. So they borrow and spend. So they reached a fiscal-theater deal in taxes are generally raised to pre-Bush Tax Cut levels. Their spending powers are undamaged. They get their power from spending. And they're not going to voluntarily reduce their power, it's not in their nature.

So, what next? The House has to pass it. That's not a given but it seems like it could happen. Then what? The remaining credit rating agencies downgrade the US's rating (S&P downgrade the US on 25 August 2011. Almost immediate the SEC and Justice Department launched investigations into S&P. Approximately 2 weeks later, the S&P CEO stepped down. This is hardball).

Will that force interest rates up? The US government is concerned with its borrowing costs. However, the Central Bank of the United States, the Federal Reserve, buys about 90% of all government debt. They are doing it in an "unsterilized" fashion, meaning they're growing their balance sheet (printing money) instead of selling existing debt to get cash to purchase new debt, as they'd been doing.

That will keep government borrowing costs down. However, money printing to increase the wealth level of a society has been tried around the world. Printing money without a commensurate increase in physical wealth, in an attempt to increase the wealth of a society, doesn't end well.

The Fed however is actively trying to spark inflation concerns in an attempt to get people and corporations to spend money. The cost of food, energy, housing, medical care, education have all been significantly increasing. However, it is masked by manufactured goods not being more expensive, as they are manufactured in low cost locales like China and the developing world. However, as some observer noted, "I can't eat an iPad."

The problem is that the Fed's government debt buying and its mortgage-backed-security (MBS) buying results in winners and losers chosen by it, not the market. And central planning has been tried in the past, again with negative consequences.

So, what's going to happen in 2013? It's unclear. There's a global crisis caused by bad debt. What's going on now is trying to determine who the bagholders for that debt will be. Most likely it will be the taxpayers of the various countries, with the financial companies continuing to be flush with cash from the public treasuries.

The ostensible theory behind all these actions is that the debt can be reduced as a percent of GDP, just like it was after World War II. No actual debt was paid off, it just became a small, sustainable part of GDP. However, we are not facing the same situation today as we were after WWII. Then, the rest of the world lay in ruins and the US was reaching the peak of empire. Today, the US is a mature, stagnant economy, like Europe and Japan, while the 3rd world is rapidly growing. But hoping to grow out of debt is the most palatable option for both the citizens of the world and the politicians around the world.

It remains to be seen if it works. However, it's a bit of a racket too. "A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small inside group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses." Always follow the money to understand what is really going on. The leaders of the Federal Reserve, powerful politicians, all wipe their behinds just like the rest of us. They're self-interested, and the fruits of their actions speak louder than their words, always. If their actions are consistently enriching certain companies and sectors while doing nothing for the economy at large, it's not an accident.
 
2013-01-01 01:39:47 AM  

Mentat: Evil High Priest: Yes, but all he (and the Dems) had to do was.. nothing. If they had simply done nothing for another few hours, they would have gotten a much better deal in three days or so. Incompetence can only go so far.

I don't know what time zone you're in, but we went off the cliff 1.5 hours ago.  Nothing's been signed by the President, so officially the Dems did nothing.  If the GOP House refuses to pass the bill, you'll still get exactly what you want.  Chill out.  Wait until something is official before you blow your top.


I know right? I mean honestly - all this drama. Its ridiculous. Its all political theater.
 
2013-01-01 01:42:26 AM  

JungleBoogie: The ostensible theory behind all these actions is that the debt can be reduced


But the debt is stupid thing to worry about in the first place.
 
2013-01-01 01:52:37 AM  
Fark 'em.
 
2013-01-01 01:54:05 AM  
"Paul Solman: Both Paul Krugman, of MIT, and Greg Mankiw, of Harvard, were teaching economics locally during my formative years as an economics correspondent. I came to know them long ago. Relations between us have seemed cordial enough, as best I could tell.

Krugman has been on the left, relatively speaking; Mankiw, generally on the right. They have been reliable and clear spokespeople for their respective points of view.

But to describe their relationship, at least intellectually, cordiality would not be the word of choice. I was reminded of this by a post on Greg's blog on Christmas Eve entitled "A Krugman Puzzler."

"I often disagree with Paul Krugman," it began, "but I usually understand him. Lately, however, I have been puzzled about his view of the bond market." That was because Krugman had dismissed, in a post of his own, the fear of "bond vigilantes" intent on punishing the US for mounting deficits and debt by demanding higher and higher interest rates to lend us money -- i.e., buy our Treasury bonds."

-- PBS Newshour

I suppose Krugman is on board with the Fed financing 100% of the US government debt if it needs to. I suppose that would keep government borrowing costs low. It's simply money printing. And Krugman has actively called for higher inflation (devaluation of dollars resulting in higher prices). But money printing to increase a society's wealth level without a commensurate increase in its actual wealth doesn't end well.
 
2013-01-01 01:55:09 AM  
Rand Paul voted no. How surprising! I apologize for Kentucky liberals, we tried to stop him.
 
2013-01-01 01:56:13 AM  

ItchyMcDoogle: Are we over the cliff yet? Perhaps this weightless feeling is falling or im just drunk


Are you wearing a NASA hat? You might be in outer space.
 
2013-01-01 02:02:12 AM  
"Unemployment benefits: Extends jobless benefits for the long-term unemployed for one year."

Yeah, baby.

"Social Security payroll tax cut: Allows a 2 percentage point cut in the payroll tax first enacted two years ago to lapse, which restores the payroll tax to 6.2 percent."

Since I'm not working, I could care less.
 
2013-01-01 02:06:40 AM  
Republicans are desperate for your health-care to fail. Think about that.
 
2013-01-01 02:09:54 AM  

snocone: anwserman: No. Fiscal cliff. We've been kicking this can down the road for far too long and we have to make cuts and sacrifices. This is utter bullshiat.
/traitors
//hang up 'em and let em burn

This is called TREASON.
Hang 'em.


Yeah, where's OBL when you need him?
 
2013-01-01 02:10:56 AM  

quickdraw: Yoyo: FTA: "The deal would allow for tax hikes on wealthier Americans, while delaying spending cuts for two months."

Damn it! You mean we have to put up with this useless, meaningless, political BS all over again in two more months? How are congress so scientifical when it comes to getting elected, yet completely idiot when it come to something like the national budget. Argh!

No. The temporary Bush tax cuts end as they were meant to. The spending cuts get sorted out to some degree. and we all go on with our lives. Really its business as usual.

wait - "scientifical"? Have you been drinking?


No, I'm being purposefully ironical. Is no one else confounded about how politicians can be so clever when it comes to campaign financing yet total morons when it comes to the jobs they actually get public salaries for doing?

CSB: As an undergrad, I took ECON 450: International Economics. Our professor handed out an 8.5 x 14 inches piece of paper with a matrix explaining the results of fiscal/monetary policy and tarriffs/quotas changes on large/small economies with/without market power. He said if we could understand this single page, then we would know more about international economics than 95% of the federal congress. To this day, I am sure he was correct, and not just about international economics but micro and macro as well.
 
2013-01-01 02:13:06 AM  
HAPPY NEIGH YEAR!

i.imgur.com
 
2013-01-01 02:20:10 AM  

Ravijn: [i.imgur.com image 730x973]


Wow. Why do economists present the national debt as a percentage of GDP, and not of tax income? This number is WAY more frightening!
 
2013-01-01 02:20:19 AM  

firefly212: oldtaku: firefly212:Economist != Accountant.

Exactly. An Economist is someone who knows how everyone else (who are perfectly rational and possess all information) should live.  Meanwhile he's on tenure and lets his wife make all the budgetary decisions.

Rofls, I do transportation economics, ... I can tell you a whole lot about people's tendencies with some pretty basic information, and unlike you, I'd be right. ;)


Uh huh. I see a whole lot there about how other people should be running their shiat and nothing about how you should be running yours. This was my point.
 
2013-01-01 02:21:43 AM  

JungleBoogie: ...
I suppose Krugman is on board with the Fed financing 100% of the US government debt if it needs to. I suppose that would keep government borrowing costs low. It's simply money printing. And Krugman has actively called for higher inflation (devaluation of dollars resulting in higher prices). But money printing to increase a society's wealth level without a commensurate increase in its actual wealth doesn't end well.


Purposefully inflating the dollar would be an interesting experiment. For one thing, it would make paying back China, Japan, Britain, etc. easier. Secondly, everyone outside the US holding dollars would have that much less money as well, so America and Americans would not being bearing the costs of our mounting debts by ourselves. This is of course in the short run. In the long run, foreigners and foreign countries would abandon the dollar as a store of value and this along with China trading for oil in yuan would be the death knell for American Exceptionalism.

I figure we're damned if we do, and damned if we don't, so at this point we might as well try the new an interesting choice, i.e. drop the hammer and fly right off the cliff at full speed.
 
2013-01-01 02:22:12 AM  
images.politico.com

One party stand to benefit if the lives of Americans get worse.

OH HE, LOOK WHAT HAPPENED!
 
2013-01-01 02:26:23 AM  

Yoyo: JungleBoogie: ...
I suppose Krugman is on board with the Fed financing 100% of the US government debt if it needs to. I suppose that would keep government borrowing costs low. It's simply money printing. And Krugman has actively called for higher inflation (devaluation of dollars resulting in higher prices). But money printing to increase a society's wealth level without a commensurate increase in its actual wealth doesn't end well.

Purposefully inflating the dollar would be an interesting experiment. For one thing, it would make paying back China, Japan, Britain, etc. easier. Secondly, everyone outside the US holding dollars would have that much less money as well, so America and Americans would not being bearing the costs of our mounting debts by ourselves. This is of course in the short run. In the long run, foreigners and foreign countries would abandon the dollar as a store of value and this along with China trading for oil in yuan would be the death knell for American Exceptionalism.

I figure we're damned if we do, and damned if we don't, so at this point we might as well try the new an interesting choice, i.e. drop the hammer and fly right off the cliff at full speed.


It's just that your savings and your pensions certainly, and the interest rate on your mortgage possibly, are at risk.
 
2013-01-01 02:37:15 AM  

firefly212: GAT_00: Ugh, these farktards agreed to kick the can down the road two months?  I knew the President would farking cave, worthless piece of shiat.  We've got to do this shiat again now, and with the debt ceiling, so now the GOP will hold the entire country hostage with it.

You worthless farking retard.

eh, better than you think... right now, the GOP just gave up 600B in new revenues without actually committing to any spending cuts... so now even if we get a 1:1 ratio in 60 days with the debt ceiling and the other votes, the President will get a much more favorable deal than he would have had he done it all as part of one "grand bargain." deal... he's not quite as stupid as he looks.


Exactly.  The final piece of the package is the debt ceiling, and if the WH gets a 1:1 deal, he'll have reversed the tables on Boehner, and gotten "98%" of what the WH wanted.  And either way, the AMT gets fixed, cap gains goes up (at least nominally), UI is extended, and the payroll tax gimmick is finally shelved.

If the deal holds as is, this isn't actually that bad of an outcome.
 
2013-01-01 02:37:33 AM  

Coming on a Bicycle: It's just that your savings and your pensions certainly, and the interest rate on your mortgage possibly, are at risk.


Ha, ha! I don't have any of those things. I keep my money all tied up in cash! (Ok, I do have savings.) So what if the interest rate on a mortgage (that I don't have) (and even if I did, I would have a fixed rate) goes up when the principal is effectively being cut? Furthermore, who has a pension now? My 401k is invested in non-monetary assets. Yeah, it would suck to lose the value of my savings (and I' already losing value on savings despite what the official rate of inflation is), but it would suck for a lot of foreigners as well, while raising taxes on Americans only sucks for me.

I'm playing devil's advocate here. I don't agree with inflation as the way to solve America's debt problem. It seems like trying to finance a city budget entirely with a lodging tax. Ultimately, the city residents will pay for it through increased costs when relatives come to visit and also through reduced tourism spending.
 
2013-01-01 02:43:23 AM  
The Bush/Obama tax cuts should have all expired tonight, returning us to the tax rates last seen at the end of the Clinton years when we very nearly had a balanced budget. All the Democrats had to do to achieve this goal, was NOTHING.

Instead, they cut a deal that allows the tax rate on the vast majority of income for the obscenely wealthy (Capital Gains) to barely inch up to 20%. Jebus Tittyfarking Christ, someone who only makes 35K from a regular job gets taxed at a higher rate than that!

(n what world should the obscenely wealthy continue to be taxed at a lower rate than the working poor? In a world where the obscenely wealthy own both parties, obviously.
 
2013-01-01 03:03:03 AM  
Oh, Christ on crutches... This deal PERMANENTLY cuts estate taxes in exchange for TEMPORARY tax credits for the poor. Even Bush was only able to wrangle temporary tax reductions.

It's a wonderful time to be an obscenely wealthy plutocrat.

Buying off both parties is really paying off for them today.
 
2013-01-01 03:18:08 AM  

BullBearMS: Oh, Christ on crutches... This deal PERMANENTLY cuts estate taxes in exchange for TEMPORARY tax credits for the poor. Even Bush was only able to wrangle temporary tax reductions.

It's a wonderful time to be an obscenely wealthy plutocrat.

Buying off both parties is really paying off for them today.


The GOP has been angling to kill the estate tax completely for decades, so the fact that it's even still here is a minor miracle.
 
2013-01-01 03:28:19 AM  

Grand_Moff_Joseph: BullBearMS: Oh, Christ on crutches... This deal PERMANENTLY cuts estate taxes in exchange for TEMPORARY tax credits for the poor. Even Bush was only able to wrangle temporary tax reductions.

It's a wonderful time to be an obscenely wealthy plutocrat.

Buying off both parties is really paying off for them today.

The GOP has been angling to kill the estate tax completely for decades, so the fact that it's even still here is a minor miracle.


Not when the only thing the Democrats have to do to completely do away with the Bush tax cuts for the rich is allow them to expire at midnight.

Instead they work with Republicans to save them. AGAIN Just like they did the last time they were due to expire in 2010.

Now the Democrats are making the damn things permanent, despite controlling two thirds of the branches of our elected Government. There is no excuse for this.
 
2013-01-01 03:43:52 AM  

JungleBoogie: But money printing to increase a society's wealth level without a commensurate increase in its actual wealth doesn't end well.


Please give us examples where it didn't end well.

Difficulty: No, Germany's hyper-inflation doesn't count, because they weren't trying to increase wealth, they were intentionally devaluing their currency to pay off the reparations of the Treaty of Versailles.

No, Uganda doesn't count, again not a policy intended to increase wealth.

No, the inflation of the 1970s doesn't count, because that was due to an oil price shock.

So please, give me some examples.

Right now it makes sense to crank up inflation a few points. There are consequences - pushes down savings rates, for one thing, and creates some problems for seniors living off of their savings.

But it knocks down the federal debt, it solves much of the problem of underwater mortgages (and that is a huge, huge problem). In turn, by easing the housing problems it creates more flexibility in labor markets (if your home is no longer underwater, you can sell it and move to change jobs). An extra three points for, oh six years, and with compounding you've whacked more than a fifth off of the national debt and cured about half the underwater mortgages.
 
2013-01-01 03:46:45 AM  
I'll reserve judgment until I see a calculation on how much this will reduce the deficit on a ten year basis.

And when that turns out to be farkingly tiny, then I will be pissed.

But for tonight, I'll enjoy my pumpkin vodka and text messages from women who claim to miss me. Tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies.
 
2013-01-01 05:23:09 AM  

Yoyo: FTA: "The deal would allow for tax hikes on wealthier Americans, while delaying spending cuts for two months."

Damn it! You mean we have to put up with this useless, meaningless, political BS all over again in two more months? How are congress so scientifical when it comes to getting elected, yet completely idiot when it come to something like the national budget. Argh!


The national debt doesn't get a vote. It also doesn't get upset about two guys kissing or the writing of pre-scientific cultures that believed in a sky wizard living in the clouds.
 
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