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(Huffington Post)   As more and more young people question the value of going $150,000 in debt so they can get a job as a Starbuck's barista, America's small liberal-arts colleges face a struggle for survival   (huffingtonpost.com) divider line 41
    More: Obvious, arts, Starbucks, U.S. universities, civic engagement, Beloit College, degree programs, academic major, climbing walls  
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4995 clicks; posted to Main » on 31 Dec 2012 at 12:59 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2012-12-31 01:14:12 PM
4 votes:
Is this the thread where the IT monkeys with their CS Degrees and crappy jobs go and mock people who have the types of degrees that their bosses do?
TWX
2012-12-31 01:09:13 PM
4 votes:
Blame the lack of value as perceived by the public at large coupled with the rise of "business school".

Classical education used to help broaden the minds of those who graduated from it. Those people would go on to be civic leaders and their broadened worldview and knowledge outside of the provincial education they otherwise would have been limited by would help them to be better civic leaders, politicians, and yes, bureaucrats. We now elect those with lesser educations tailored toward understanding one's fellow man, which is evident in political discourse these days.

I see business school as primarily a way to give degrees to people who abhor the concept of the classical liberal arts education that used to produce industry management and businessmen. Those business school graduates often think they know what's best for everyone even though they really don't have much experience with other facets of life and really don't know how others live or how to really make improvements, as their education was too narrow, too tailored.

People like to claim that Bachelor of Science degrees don't prepare graduates with a well-enough-rounded education, but that seems to be a much wider problem.
2012-12-31 01:09:00 PM
3 votes:
The Student Loan Scam: Creating a generation of indentured servants for the pleasure of our Corporate Overlords.
2012-12-31 02:45:32 PM
2 votes:
Look, I don't know about the rest of you, but I went to college to go to college, not to actualize and incentivize my marketability in a fluid economy, and I'm bone-weary of the idea that college is some sort of farm league for businesses.

And just to drag the entire bag of smug into the room and leave it in the middle of the floor for everyone to see, while my parents did light the fuse, I had a full-time job long before I graduated and was paying for it as I went. Did I do well this year? Then I can take twelve credit hours instead of nine. Did I do poorly? Then I'll have to cut back to six. When I did graduate, a number of my co-workers asked, "So what are you going to do now?" I looked around the office and said, "Well, this."

I get that in a crappy economy, you're going to want to further your marketability rather than perpetuating Western Civilization for the next generation. But when you and 2.2 million of your closest friends decide that IT is the place to be, you're going to graduate into an oversaturated market replete with constantly-changing technology that will require frequent upgrades to your already expensive education to keep pace, and there's a shiny-faced graduate ten years younger than you who's just as qualified and will work for cheaper. I may have an English degree, but I never have to worry about changes in English technology or acquiring new qualifications in English sciences to ensure my English marketability. I didn't have to take an unpaid English internship to marginally improve my chances of getting a job in English when I graduated.

I also disagree that you should have your entire life etched in stone by the time you hit seventeen. My Dad was fifty when he went for a change of career and he was very, very good in his new field. It was his FIFTH career, after very little overlap in the previous four, and not counting flipping houses. His degree? ENGLISH.

I'm not saying Liberal Arts are for everyone, just that they're not an automatic ticket to a life of asking people if they want fries with that. The trouble is that Liberal Arts majors don't make good little corporate drones. So there's been this huge top-down push to transform universities from seats of learning to employee mills. If they can devalue that English degree, they can put a stop to this silly "social mobility" thing once and for all.
TWX
2012-12-31 07:50:21 PM
1 votes:

Buffalo77: Yeah, your thinking is about 60 or 70 years out of date. The world has changed. Its called a global economy now where we aren't the only stud on the block.


Last time I looked, lots of countries don't import nearly as much as we do, and many countries are seemingly happy even if they don't have the largest GDPs.

I don't want to live in a country whose sole purpose is to grow economy. I want to live in a country that manages to provide a comfortable way of life for everyone that wants to apply themselves, and doesn't let people completely fall through the cracks.

I see many degrees as promoting a method or career for only one's own personal benefit, rather than for one's personal benefit first, but for positive contributions for society as well. This, "I've got mine, screw you all," attitude is not good for us.
2012-12-31 04:18:12 PM
1 votes:
I've been staring blankly at my computer try justify what possessed me to get a science degree and an arts degree... Theater and botany. A waste of five years, but I busted my ass and walked away with $126 of debt.

However, whenever I am feeling too proud or secure with the choices I have made in my life, I just come to Fark.

Excuse me for a moment, a customer came in and I have to make an americano for them.

True story.
2012-12-31 03:57:15 PM
1 votes:
www.brookings.edu

www.investmentpostcards.com
66.147.244.137

blogs.vcu.edu
2012-12-31 03:54:39 PM
1 votes:
I took up space in college and got my degree in aerospace engineering back in 1987. I lived with my folks, commuted by bus or carpool for the 4-1/2 years to get my degree, went to the University of Minnesota instead of a snooty private college, and worked at McVomitBurger--and paid off my $2800 in student loans before I graduated. Heck, I got my degree for about $10,000 total.

Good thing I paid things off. I graduated just as the aerospace industry was going into a long slump from which it never really recovered--this was when all of Reagan's Star Wars programs had their budgets drastically slashed. I ended up working in boring clerical jobs for the next couple of decades until I made enough as an artist to escape the Rat Race. It's been a year and a half since I last had a temp job and if I get an important music-video gig and some gigs related to a toy I'm a consultant on, I might permanently escape the corporate world entirely.

I don't regret getting my college degree as it was a matter of pride in my family. I do regret studying rocket science and if I could do things all over again, I'd get a degree in art, but the other things I studied besides math and engineering made college worthwhile to me. What sucks about college is that people have to invest 4 years of effort and a lot of money when they're probably not even certain what it is they want to do for the rest of their lives...

/whoo, hoo!
2012-12-31 03:48:13 PM
1 votes:

Wangiss: freewill: bhcompy: It's not about the money, it's about the relative purchasing power. Sounds like he's in the right area if he's happy and makes over the median. That's all that really matters.

The Secret of Life is entering a moderately high-earning field where you can telecommute from a low-cost area.

Seriously.

I'm actively working on that final part now. I figure I could get some acreage and a few dogs, maybe even hire a security guard on what I make if I moved to Indiana.


Make sure you move close enough to a major metro area that you can commute to work if you lose your job.

/learned from experience
2012-12-31 03:15:22 PM
1 votes:

monoski: Imagine when they find out they can take that $150k and start up their own venture (maybe even a Bucks franchise) skip the 4 years of drinking and whoring and get right down the business of working for a living...


Yes, because I'm sure a teenager right out of high school with no experience will be able to get a $150K loan.
2012-12-31 02:34:49 PM
1 votes:

bhcompy: It's not about the money, it's about the relative purchasing power. Sounds like he's in the right area if he's happy and makes over the median. That's all that really matters.


The Secret of Life is entering a moderately high-earning field where you can telecommute from a low-cost area.

Seriously.
2012-12-31 02:34:05 PM
1 votes:
My wife has a degree in Radio-Television-Film. She has never used it ever - her first job out of college was as an accounts-receivable clerk, and now she's a stay-at-home mom. She went to college only because "she was supposed to". She didn't need to do so; she has never held a job that requires a degree, nor has she ever wanted a job that would require one.

The problem is that there's this concept that "everyone needs to go to college" that is simply not true. Not everyone needs a college degree. I've known tons of people who go to college and major in one of the softer fields like Communications only to come out and just take the first job that came their way, only now with more debt. You shouldn't go to college unless you have career plans that require it, or you are really passionate about some field of knowledge (in which case you should be prepared to either go all the way through your doctorate or be prepared to not work in that field and get the degree only for its own sake). Going to college for a degree in Art History not because you're interested in Art History but because you just "have to have a degree" is wasteful.

Trade schools need to have their stigma removed, as well. They (trade schools) also need to stop pretending to be real universities; they're not, and there's no shame in it.
2012-12-31 02:32:30 PM
1 votes:

Treygreen13: Who spends 150k on an education that doesn't end with medical school or the bar exam?


Everyone, since we decided in the mid-80's that ALL CHILDREN SHOULD GO TO COLLEGE!!! and prices went up accordingly.
2012-12-31 02:22:36 PM
1 votes:

The All-Powerful Atheismo: Engineering degree, $0 of debt.

Eat it.


I did a 3-2 engineering program at a small liberal arts college (Knox). I earned a physics degree and am now about a semester away from a mechanical engineering degree at the University of Kansas. I have to say, I learned a ton more at Knox about the world than at KU, and am a more well rounded person from it. Also, the people were more interesting and the parties were awesome.

Also, no debt. Eat it.
2012-12-31 02:15:12 PM
1 votes:

Coastalgrl: The cost of books is outrageous. I get a tuition waiver in exchange for teaching/research thankfully so Im not getting any more student lons. But this is the first time I'm at a school who uses Barnes and Noble as their bookseller. I have never seen more overpriced books in my life. If I went with the school for my books this term, it would total $800 for 2 grad and 1 undergrad class. I had a few of the books already and only purchased books for the undergrad class......managed to skate for $320 using Amazon but that's for one class.

These better be the best programming books ever.


They were not. You only need the one book and it's like $45. $20 if you can convince an old UNIX guy to part with one of his copies.

cm.bell-labs.com
/fark textbook publishers
2012-12-31 02:11:12 PM
1 votes:

gja: lilplatinum: gja: lilplatinum: Is this the thread where the IT monkeys with their CS Degrees and crappy jobs go and mock people who have the types of degrees that their bosses do?

LULZ, no. This is the thread where uwe bona fide engineers with the real degrees mock you ALL for choosing a line of work that is so volatile as we continue to get ahead even as our bosses come and go with their oh-so-wonderful-but-useless MBA's.

Yes, Engineers are the only profession with job stability in the world and the only profession that makes any money.

/the 1 in 10,000 Engineer who actually has some modicum of social skills actually can make himself pretty farking valuable, however.

/humor, please activate your sense, that is all...........


Sorry I live with an Engineer, and she is German - that sense has long since withered and died.
2012-12-31 02:01:58 PM
1 votes:

ChuDogg: It's a pyramid scheme with the top 10% flush with money while the bottom 90% are cluesless retards blowing their family wealth down the drain or selling their own futures to debt slavery.


THAT right there. Most of our stuff is organized around that very thing: making us debt slaves. Banks can't sell as many mortgages as they want. People say, fark that, I'll rent. They lobby Congress to make the mortgage interest deductable, so now I have an incentive to say, save up that 10% down and get on board with the mortage. Sah-WEET! look at me, boys, I'm a homeowner. fark all y'all, I got equity.

Except you don't not for at least 10 years or so in a 30-year. And even then it's just pennies on the dollar until the interest is paid out, and by then you've probably already paid the purchase price and still have that much more to go. But we all have a big, veiny hard-on for that sweet mortgage interest deduction come April 15 every year, right?

Same with the health insurance. Can't get it on your own, at least not if you have a family. Sure, some low-risk 20-something can get it reasonable, but once you have dependents, forget it. You've got to go to work for someone who'll provide it. THEN you're at their mercy because you can't afford to lose the insurance. Bullshiat. And the insurance gomers keep their lobbyists in congress on the job to make DAMN sure it stays that way, too.

Keep us serfs toiling 45, 60, 75 years, feeding that Big Machine. Give us enough cheap, carb-rich foods and Sports Entertainments to keep us mollified, stupid, and toiling away.
2012-12-31 01:51:38 PM
1 votes:

TWX: Classical education used to help broaden the minds of those who graduated from it. Those people would go on to be civic leaders and their broadened worldview and knowledge outside of the provincial education they otherwise would have been limited by would help them to be better civic leaders, politicians, and yes, bureaucrats. We now elect those with lesser educations tailored toward understanding one's fellow man, which is evident in political discourse these days.


I'm all for LIberal Arts but your classical liberals arts education has been destroyed by group identity politics. I'm in New England and I see alot of these "prestigious" schools exactly like the article is talking about, places with 400 students that you never heard of, but cost 50 grand a year to go to. All they seem to produce is a bunch of whiny petulant children with dreadlocks and facial piercing screaming about teh patriarchy and white privilege. You might get a basic job in Human Resources with that, but I honestly don't see what else they can do with that education. They certainly weren't taught to have a broadened worldview of knowledge and I can't see them demonstrating to an employer their critical thinking skills, nor will they likely be able to in self employment. Career students is their only goal and hopefully they can become so entrenched they join the system teaching critical theory or joining the bookwriting/lecture circuit. It's a pyramid scheme with the top 10% flush with money while the bottom 90% are cluesless retards blowing their family wealth down the drain or selling their own futures to debt slavery.

Classical Liberal Arts is dead.
2012-12-31 01:48:07 PM
1 votes:

lilplatinum: gja: lilplatinum: Is this the thread where the IT monkeys with their CS Degrees and crappy jobs go and mock people who have the types of degrees that their bosses do?

LULZ, no. This is the thread where uwe bona fide engineers with the real degrees mock you ALL for choosing a line of work that is so volatile as we continue to get ahead even as our bosses come and go with their oh-so-wonderful-but-useless MBA's.

Yes, Engineers are the only profession with job stability in the world and the only profession that makes any money.

/the 1 in 10,000 Engineer who actually has some modicum of social skills actually can make himself pretty farking valuable, however.


I've tended to find that most engineers have a modicum of social skills. I used to believe that old stereotype, but I just haven't seen it in the real world. It could have something to do with confirmation bias, though, as I tend to run completely unskilled people out of an interview, even if they're technically brilliant. But I'm in an industry and company where social skills are just as important as your talent level, and you'll crash projects if you can't play nice with people who you have every justifiable reason to want to run over with your car.
2012-12-31 01:45:58 PM
1 votes:

gja: lilplatinum: Is this the thread where the IT monkeys with their CS Degrees and crappy jobs go and mock people who have the types of degrees that their bosses do?

LULZ, no. This is the thread where uwe bona fide engineers with the real degrees mock you ALL for choosing a line of work that is so volatile as we continue to get ahead even as our bosses come and go with their oh-so-wonderful-but-useless MBA's.


I'm one of those liberal arts degree holders who has engineers working for him (btw, I respect them immensely, not knocking them at all). I find it very awesome, though, that we can all agree as we make more money than the average Joe that MBAs deserve to be humiliated and thrown into the fire.

In my department, unless you have requisite business experience to go with it (re: you got your MBA 25 years ago and have some notable talents or deeper business experience), having an MBA gets your application sent straight to the trash can, as it shows you are, in general, an exceptionally poor decision maker, procrastinator, or poor thinker. I'll take a degree in geology over an MBA any day of the week.
2012-12-31 01:40:36 PM
1 votes:

gja: lilplatinum: Is this the thread where the IT monkeys with their CS Degrees and crappy jobs go and mock people who have the types of degrees that their bosses do?

LULZ, no. This is the thread where uwe bona fide engineers with the real degrees mock you ALL for choosing a line of work that is so volatile as we continue to get ahead even as our bosses come and go with their oh-so-wonderful-but-useless MBA's.


Yes, Engineers are the only profession with job stability in the world and the only profession that makes any money.

/the 1 in 10,000 Engineer who actually has some modicum of social skills actually can make himself pretty farking valuable, however.
2012-12-31 01:39:37 PM
1 votes:

Sweaty Dynamite: LiberalZombie: A lot of talk about redefining who they are, but not much about these colleges reducing the cost of their degree programs. Isn't that what a capitalist market should demand?

But dude, then how could the campus cafe afford to give away the free certified organic soy vegan gluten free nutrition experience?


Um...they don't. They charge you even more for meals-on top of tuition and books.
2012-12-31 01:36:55 PM
1 votes:
Most college kids don't have the professional context to made high level business decisions, period.  And why would you expect them to?
2012-12-31 01:34:56 PM
1 votes:
This is why white people will never riot. Between student loans and mortgage debt, most everyone from 18-70 can't afford the consequences.
2012-12-31 01:31:54 PM
1 votes:
Could be worse, they could have gone to law school or gone for MBAs
2012-12-31 01:30:56 PM
1 votes:
Perhaps if the people who pursue liberal arts degrees could learn to properly spell and punctuate, they wouldn't have to work at a place like "Starbuck's".

/Your apostrophe license is hereby revoked, tardmitter.
2012-12-31 01:27:45 PM
1 votes:
Engineering degree, $0 of debt.

Eat it.
2012-12-31 01:21:37 PM
1 votes:

letrole: lilplatinum:
Is this the thread where the IT monkeys with their CS Degrees and crappy jobs go and mock people who have the types of degrees that their bosses do?


No. This is the thread where those with liberal arts degrees make half-hearted attempts to justify taking the long way round to an exciting career of part-time clerical work.


Hey fix my computer, monkey, I have to go get loaded at lunch because I can.
2012-12-31 01:17:42 PM
1 votes:

Great Janitor: More and more I question the value of college. I was fed the "Go to college, get an education, make more money." I did that, found that you can make more money not going into college and instead, going into sales or starting your own business. If you have a calling and a burning desire to become a lawyer, doctor, scientist or engineer, then college definitely. If not, them the debt isn't worth it.


Sales has never really required a degree. You just have to be a salesman. I have learned that I am not. It seems to be one of those things that is innate in people and then grows with better with the good ones.
2012-12-31 01:12:35 PM
1 votes:

bhcompy: Going to community college and paying $36/credit for a liberal arts education is much more efficient than going to Haverford and spending $60,000 per year unless you're using it as a springboard to grad school. That is really the only valid reason to attend a prestigious liberal arts college these days.


What is really funny is to watch the Ivory Tower folks get schooled by a bunch of grubby hayseeds from the middle of flyover country.

/Though, in all fairness, many of the Harvard Grads don't need a job in the first place.
2012-12-31 01:12:17 PM
1 votes:
Perhaps, underwater basket weaving does not have nearly the marketability that your faculty advisor intimated that it had.

/ $200,000 for a photography degree at a NYU is just 'tardy
2012-12-31 01:11:34 PM
1 votes:
i.qkme.me
2012-12-31 01:11:06 PM
1 votes:

letrole: [i.qkme.me image 400x600]


Looks like the typical Johnston State Co-Ed here in Vermont. Got kicked out of a more prestigious school for doing too much acid and such, then mommy and daddy buy her a jeep and a year long ski pass and tuition at JSC, with a lease on an apartment in town, so she can have her privacy while throwing wild parties and farking 57 year old men she met on Alt dot com. (hey, firsthand knowledge) Yep,
2012-12-31 01:10:13 PM
1 votes:
I don't get a kick out of people being unemployed, but as someone with a degree from a small liberal arts college and a job...
2012-12-31 01:10:11 PM
1 votes:
Oh, it's this schtick again.

/Liberal Arts Major.
//Gainfully Employed
2012-12-31 01:07:32 PM
1 votes:
A lot of talk about redefining who they are, but not much about these colleges reducing the cost of their degree programs. Isn't that what a capitalist market should demand?
2012-12-31 01:06:51 PM
1 votes:
i.qkme.me
2012-12-31 01:06:31 PM
1 votes:
If you are paying for an education and have internet access, you are doing it wrong.
2012-12-31 01:04:50 PM
1 votes:
Not surprised the entire collegiate system in the US needs an overhaul to cut waste and bring down the cost of tuition and books, the prices for those are just plain unacceptable.

At the very least make all student loan debt dis-chargeable in bankruptcy after 10 years post college.
2012-12-31 01:04:11 PM
1 votes:
Forced to evolve with the market?  Does this mean that I only needed to wait a few years in order to actually GET a barista degree, instead of just pretending that the one I have is it?

/didn't go into debt for it either
//pell grants and financial aid FTW
2012-12-31 01:02:43 PM
1 votes:
College? I never went to college....just graduated from high school, and filled out an application and here I am, making your Venti Mocha

cdn2.holytaco.com
 
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