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(Huffington Post)   As more and more young people question the value of going $150,000 in debt so they can get a job as a Starbuck's barista, America's small liberal-arts colleges face a struggle for survival   (huffingtonpost.com) divider line 247
    More: Obvious, arts, Starbucks, U.S. universities, civic engagement, Beloit College, degree programs, academic major, climbing walls  
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4995 clicks; posted to Main » on 31 Dec 2012 at 12:59 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-31 02:28:19 PM
fields that require advanced degrees (masters or higher) and have massive gluts of graduates:

Accounting
Biomedical Research
Chemistry
Psychology
Law
Quantitative Finance
Pharmacists

but sure, laugh at the liberal arts majors.
 
2012-12-31 02:28:25 PM

towatchoverme: LtDarkstar: towatchoverme: LtDarkstar: haha you're doing it wrong!

Me + technical college (few thousand at most) + part time evening classes at Ottawa University = $50k/yr job ;) & no student loans! heh!

You clearly got what you paid for.

It was a good deal and I make more money than most people that live in this area :) (Web designer)

You're in the wrong area. :-) You still in Ottawa? Self-employed or with a firm?


It's not about the money, it's about the relative purchasing power. Sounds like he's in the right area if he's happy and makes over the median. That's all that really matters.
 
2012-12-31 02:28:48 PM

Wangiss: lilplatinum: gja: lilplatinum: gja: lilplatinum: Is this the thread where the IT monkeys with their CS Degrees and crappy jobs go and mock people who have the types of degrees that their bosses do?

LULZ, no. This is the thread where uwe bona fide engineers with the real degrees mock you ALL for choosing a line of work that is so volatile as we continue to get ahead even as our bosses come and go with their oh-so-wonderful-but-useless MBA's.

Yes, Engineers are the only profession with job stability in the world and the only profession that makes any money.

/the 1 in 10,000 Engineer who actually has some modicum of social skills actually can make himself pretty farking valuable, however.

/humor, please activate your sense, that is all...........

Sorry I live with an Engineer, and she is German - that sense has long since withered and died.

Ordnung muss sein.


Kein Scheiss!
 
2012-12-31 02:29:54 PM

SkunkWerks: Oh, it's this schtick again.

/Liberal Arts Major.
//Gainfully Employed


This.

///have had a great career so far
 
2012-12-31 02:32:22 PM

lennavan: I'd swear your previous two posts are like word-for-word straight off what I saw in a google search for it.


Swear whatever you'd like. I've been employing the British convention for years, which you'd readily see for yourself by reading any of my previous posts anywhere I've quoted someone.

Not that it matters, of course. Subby richly deserves criticism for being completely incapable of using an apostrophe appropriately, which for some reason prompted you to start hounding me about a widely accepted stylistic choice. Zing, indeed. Good one! You win all the arguments on the internet.
 
2012-12-31 02:32:30 PM

Treygreen13: Who spends 150k on an education that doesn't end with medical school or the bar exam?


Everyone, since we decided in the mid-80's that ALL CHILDREN SHOULD GO TO COLLEGE!!! and prices went up accordingly.
 
2012-12-31 02:32:39 PM
lilplatinum
Ordnung muss sein.

Kein Scheiss!

That was tremendously edifying. Thank you, good sir.
 
2012-12-31 02:33:03 PM
Oh, a masturbatory engineering degree thread. We haven't had one of those since earlier this morning.
 
2012-12-31 02:33:36 PM

Ed_Severson: Not that it matters, of course. Subby richly deserves criticism for being completely incapable of using an apostrophe appropriately, which for some reason prompted you to start hounding me about a widely accepted stylistic choice.


I just enjoyed the irony dude.
 
2012-12-31 02:34:05 PM
My wife has a degree in Radio-Television-Film. She has never used it ever - her first job out of college was as an accounts-receivable clerk, and now she's a stay-at-home mom. She went to college only because "she was supposed to". She didn't need to do so; she has never held a job that requires a degree, nor has she ever wanted a job that would require one.

The problem is that there's this concept that "everyone needs to go to college" that is simply not true. Not everyone needs a college degree. I've known tons of people who go to college and major in one of the softer fields like Communications only to come out and just take the first job that came their way, only now with more debt. You shouldn't go to college unless you have career plans that require it, or you are really passionate about some field of knowledge (in which case you should be prepared to either go all the way through your doctorate or be prepared to not work in that field and get the degree only for its own sake). Going to college for a degree in Art History not because you're interested in Art History but because you just "have to have a degree" is wasteful.

Trade schools need to have their stigma removed, as well. They (trade schools) also need to stop pretending to be real universities; they're not, and there's no shame in it.
 
2012-12-31 02:34:49 PM

bhcompy: It's not about the money, it's about the relative purchasing power. Sounds like he's in the right area if he's happy and makes over the median. That's all that really matters.


The Secret of Life is entering a moderately high-earning field where you can telecommute from a low-cost area.

Seriously.
 
2012-12-31 02:35:16 PM

letrole: lilplatinum:
Is this the thread where the IT monkeys with their CS Degrees and crappy jobs go and mock people who have the types of degrees that their bosses do?


No. This is the thread where those with liberal arts degrees make half-hearted attempts to justify taking the long way round to an exciting career of part-time clerical work.


No, this is the thread where letrole is the best MMO.
 
2012-12-31 02:35:52 PM
It's really a shame, because a liberal arts degree is how you get educated, while a business degree is how you get trained.
 
2012-12-31 02:36:35 PM

freewill: bhcompy: It's not about the money, it's about the relative purchasing power. Sounds like he's in the right area if he's happy and makes over the median. That's all that really matters.

The Secret of Life is entering a moderately high-earning field where you can telecommute from a low-cost area.

Seriously.


As someone who has done this since 2007, yes, I agree.

Gyrfalcon: Treygreen13: Who spends 150k on an education that doesn't end with medical school or the bar exam?

Everyone, since we decided in the mid-80's that ALL CHILDREN SHOULD GO TO COLLEGE!!! and prices went up accordingly.


Err, actually, prices have been going at the double the rate of national inflation rate basically since they started tracking the numbers(if I recall the data I saw started tracking in the 60s)
 
2012-12-31 02:37:18 PM
At an old job I noticed that the HR department got final approval on all budgets. The IT department was shafted every time. One year the approved budget for the IT Christmas party was $500 and the HR Christmas party was $18,000. I asked "Is HR full of liberal art majors who spent college constantly being told that they were getting useless degrees compared to Computer Science majors and now are punishing the IT department as some sort of personal vendetta?"

Left that job with an exist interview survey asking how more of them weren't in prison.
 
2012-12-31 02:38:13 PM

Gyrfalcon: Treygreen13: Who spends 150k on an education that doesn't end with medical school or the bar exam?

Everyone, since we decided in the mid-80's that ALL CHILDREN SHOULD GO TO COLLEGE!!! and prices went up accordingly.


Exactly.

In 2003, there were hardly any students who wanted to go to the University of California. They had lots of empty seats, so tuition was low. But then by 2012, since all children should go to college, tuition went up 4X because now there was an increased demand for education. So you see, tuitions at non-profit universities are a function of supply/demand*.

*please don't look at any other factors such as declining tax support from the government.
 
2012-12-31 02:38:22 PM

Lord Dimwit: You shouldn't go to college unless you have career plans that require it, or you are really passionate about some field of knowledge (in which case you should be prepared to either go all the way through your doctorate or be prepared to not work in that field and get the degree only for its own sake). Going to college for a degree in Art History not because you're interested in Art History but because you just "have to have a degree" is wasteful.


What should be and what is are two different things. I like how in Germany trade school encompasses many white collar jobs and has no stigma, thus only people who actually should be in Uni go to Uni and it is pretty much free since it isn't ridiculously overcrowded.

But in the US you kind of do have to have a degree (yes, there are some anecdotes of people who were highly successful without them, but they are not the norm). Hell, I have an undergrad in poli-sci/philosophy and a masters in comparative politics - neither of which has fark all to do with my career. However, had I not gotten a degree it would have been a big impediment to getting a residency/work permit to begin with since its just expected of Americans.

So yeah, what *should be* and what are are two different things.
 
2012-12-31 02:39:14 PM

Great Janitor: At an old job I noticed that the HR department got final approval on all budgets. The IT department was shafted every time. One year the approved budget for the IT Christmas party was $500 and the HR Christmas party was $18,000. I asked "Is HR full of liberal art majors who spent college constantly being told that they were getting useless degrees compared to Computer Science majors and now are punishing the IT department as some sort of personal vendetta?"

Left that job with an exist interview survey asking how more of them weren't in prison.


My previous post has just been reinforced.
 
2012-12-31 02:42:20 PM

lennavan: Gyrfalcon: Treygreen13: Who spends 150k on an education that doesn't end with medical school or the bar exam?

Everyone, since we decided in the mid-80's that ALL CHILDREN SHOULD GO TO COLLEGE!!! and prices went up accordingly.

Exactly.

In 2003, there were hardly any students who wanted to go to the University of California. They had lots of empty seats, so tuition was low. But then by 2012, since all children should go to college, tuition went up 4X because now there was an increased demand for education. So you see, tuitions at non-profit universities are a function of supply/demand*.

*please don't look at any other factors such as declining tax support from the government.


Tuition wasn't low because there was no demand, tuition was low because the state charter for the UC, CSU, and CC system states that state residents shall be educated for free. That became unfeasible as the state went in to the red permanently, so "tuition" (labeled as fees) has increased accordingly. It's a gradual thing.
 
2012-12-31 02:43:47 PM
No degree and love my job, pulling in close to six figures every year and coukd break that barrier easily if I wanted to work more OT like some of my crazy coworkers but choose not to.

Granted a degree does help get a persons feet in the door, either that or go the route I went and spend some time in the military.

Now a degree would help me out if I ever wanted to retire at an executive pay rate but honestly I'm opposed to the whole retiring at full pay on the tax payers dime thingy.
 
2012-12-31 02:45:32 PM
Look, I don't know about the rest of you, but I went to college to go to college, not to actualize and incentivize my marketability in a fluid economy, and I'm bone-weary of the idea that college is some sort of farm league for businesses.

And just to drag the entire bag of smug into the room and leave it in the middle of the floor for everyone to see, while my parents did light the fuse, I had a full-time job long before I graduated and was paying for it as I went. Did I do well this year? Then I can take twelve credit hours instead of nine. Did I do poorly? Then I'll have to cut back to six. When I did graduate, a number of my co-workers asked, "So what are you going to do now?" I looked around the office and said, "Well, this."

I get that in a crappy economy, you're going to want to further your marketability rather than perpetuating Western Civilization for the next generation. But when you and 2.2 million of your closest friends decide that IT is the place to be, you're going to graduate into an oversaturated market replete with constantly-changing technology that will require frequent upgrades to your already expensive education to keep pace, and there's a shiny-faced graduate ten years younger than you who's just as qualified and will work for cheaper. I may have an English degree, but I never have to worry about changes in English technology or acquiring new qualifications in English sciences to ensure my English marketability. I didn't have to take an unpaid English internship to marginally improve my chances of getting a job in English when I graduated.

I also disagree that you should have your entire life etched in stone by the time you hit seventeen. My Dad was fifty when he went for a change of career and he was very, very good in his new field. It was his FIFTH career, after very little overlap in the previous four, and not counting flipping houses. His degree? ENGLISH.

I'm not saying Liberal Arts are for everyone, just that they're not an automatic ticket to a life of asking people if they want fries with that. The trouble is that Liberal Arts majors don't make good little corporate drones. So there's been this huge top-down push to transform universities from seats of learning to employee mills. If they can devalue that English degree, they can put a stop to this silly "social mobility" thing once and for all.
 
2012-12-31 02:48:15 PM

lilplatinum: Is this the thread where the IT monkeys with their CS Degrees and crappy jobs go and mock people who have the types of degrees that their bosses do?


I get loaded at lunch on a pretty regular basis.

/ CS degree
// research scientist working on really, really cool stuff in graph theory and complexity theory
 
2012-12-31 02:48:37 PM

bhcompy: Tuition wasn't low because there was no demand


Yes, exactly. The University of California definitely has lots of trouble filling its seats. Lots of Universities have this problem, it's not just a California thing.* Tuitions are rising all across the United States and it has nothing to do with state budgets cutting support to the Universities who are then forced to pass it on to the students. It's about supply and demand. If you look now versus a decade ago, the difference in enrollment is staggering.*

Think about it, do you know of anyone who has ever been turned down to a University? Hell have you ever even heard of or read about someone being turned down? No, of course not.** There are all sorts of empty seats.

*please dont look at any actual stats or facts that are easily available on the internet
** also please do not use your brain
 
gja [TotalFark]
2012-12-31 02:48:49 PM

Great Janitor: At an old job I noticed that the HR department got final approval on all budgets. The IT department was shafted every time. One year the approved budget for the IT Christmas party was $500 and the HR Christmas party was $18,000. I asked "Is HR full of liberal art majors who spent college constantly being told that they were getting useless degrees compared to Computer Science majors and now are punishing the IT department as some sort of personal vendetta?"

Left that job with an exist interview survey asking how more of them weren't in prison.


That's not the wisest way to approach such a situation, friend.
encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com
 
gja [TotalFark]
2012-12-31 02:50:27 PM

dropdfun: No degree and love my job, pulling in close to six figures every year and coukd break that barrier easily if I wanted to work more OT like some of my crazy coworkers but choose not to.

Granted a degree does help get a persons feet in the door, either that or go the route I went and spend some time in the military.

Now a degree would help me out if I ever wanted to retire at an executive pay rate but honestly I'm opposed to the whole retiring at full pay on the tax payers dime thingy.


You have far too many scruples.
 
2012-12-31 02:56:25 PM

TyrantII: lilplatinum: gja: lilplatinum: Is this the thread where the IT monkeys with their CS Degrees and crappy jobs go and mock people who have the types of degrees that their bosses do?

LULZ, no. This is the thread where uwe bona fide engineers with the real degrees mock you ALL for choosing a line of work that is so volatile as we continue to get ahead even as our bosses come and go with their oh-so-wonderful-but-useless MBA's.

Yes, Engineers are the only profession with job stability in the world and the only profession that makes any money.

/the 1 in 10,000 Engineer who actually has some modicum of social skills actually can make himself pretty farking valuable, however.

Even engineering isn't safe in this global economy at this time. I know several that have been laid off and can not find jobs.


Having grown up in Houston in the 80's, I know that petroleum engineers were in very low demand at that time. My Dad, a civil engineer, had a close call in the early 90's. I imagine anyone with a nuclear engineering degree (without Navy experience) saw the same ebb and flow in demand as public opinion on nuclear energy waxes andchoice wanes.

I still think engineering is a great choice for those with the aptitude though.
 
2012-12-31 02:57:12 PM
Hooray! My alma mater (Adrian College) gets itself some visibility on both Huff Post and the Yahoo main page. Why do I not feel any better about myself?

Oh yeah, cause its my alma mater and I have a theatre degree from it.

/look at me, I even spell it theatre and not theater. Aren't I special.
 
2012-12-31 02:58:20 PM

TWX: Blame the lack of value as perceived by the public at large coupled with the rise of "business school".

Classical education used to help broaden the minds of those who graduated from it. Those people would go on to be civic leaders and their broadened worldview and knowledge outside of the provincial education they otherwise would have been limited by would help them to be better civic leaders, politicians, and yes, bureaucrats. We now elect those with lesser educations tailored toward understanding one's fellow man, which is evident in political discourse these days.

I see business school as primarily a way to give degrees to people who abhor the concept of the classical liberal arts education that used to produce industry management and businessmen. Those business school graduates often think they know what's best for everyone even though they really don't have much experience with other facets of life and really don't know how others live or how to really make improvements, as their education was too narrow, too tailored.

People like to claim that Bachelor of Science degrees don't prepare graduates with a well-enough-rounded education, but that seems to be a much wider problem.


I'm all for a classical education, but schools charging 30k+ a year for it is ridiculous, it's growing at a rate much higher than inflation. Why? Simple Economics.

Anyone can get a loan guaranteed by government and cannot be discharged in bankruptcy. The banks ate this up because it's a virtually risk free investment, and it funneled unending money into colleges, causing inflation.

Why did it take this long for people to realize that it was a massive bubble? Like the housing market, the college market sells a "Leave it to Beaver" like dream. A dream of prosperity and success, a ticket to the upper-middle class. It's makes people behave irrationally.

"Don't worry, just take out loans and you'll get a good job to pay them back" was the mantra repeated constantly when I was in high school about 10 years ago. I'm very lucky that I had parents that made me do the math on loan re-payments to see the traditional college experience was an expensive suckers' game.

I still went to college, but my first 2 years were at a community college to cut down the expense and did my best to pay it myself. I ended up taking out some student loans (25k) total for the last year of university and my MBA, even with some small scholarships.

I can't tell you how many friends I have with close to 100k student loans for a bachelors.

TL;DR version: Classical education is important, charging 30k+ a year for the privilege is the issue.

/Classical education should be taught in public school
//FYI, colleges are not "the paper chase" anymore
 
2012-12-31 03:02:35 PM

shortymac: I'm all for a classical education, but schools charging 30k+ a year for it is ridiculous, it's growing at a rate much higher than inflation. Why? Simple Economics.


shortymac: I'm all for a classical education, but schools charging 30k+ a year for it is ridiculous, it's growing at a rate much higher than inflation. Why? Simple Economics.


Economics has nothing to do with it. It's simple math.

2000
Cost to run State University: $10 million
Tax Dollars from State government: $5 million
Students at University: 1,000
Tuition: $5 million / 1,000 = $5,000 per student.

2010
Cost to run State University: $10 million
Tax Dollars from State government: $0
Students at University: 1,000
Tuition: $10 million / 1,000 = $10,000 per student.

OH MY GOD WHY DID TUITION DOUBLE?!?!?!?1
 
2012-12-31 03:02:56 PM

peasandcarrots: Look, I don't know about the rest of you, but I went to college to go to college, not to actualize and incentivize my marketability in a fluid economy, and I'm bone-weary of the idea that college is some sort of farm league for businesses.


Well, I like computers so both those happened to align nicely. "Incentivize my marketability?" I thought you said you had a degree in English :)

peasandcarrots: I get that in a crappy economy, you're going to want to further your marketability rather than perpetuating Western Civilization for the next generation. But when you and 2.2 million of your closest friends decide that IT is the place to be, you're going to graduate into an oversaturated market replete with constantly-changing technology that will require frequent upgrades to your already expensive education to keep pace, and there's a shiny-faced graduate ten years younger than you who's just as qualified and will work for cheaper. I may have an English degree, but I never have to worry about changes in English technology or acquiring new qualifications in English sciences to ensure my English marketability.


Where does this idea come from anyway? The technology itself isn't that important; there are skills that you acquire and refine that are behind the technologies. The idea that the fresh-faced graduate has the same skill level is as ridiculous as me saying that a fresh-faced writer can replace you because he took a class on the new thing- ePublishing, so your skills and experience are obsolete. Now, admittedly, I'm not an IT guy, but I bet you obtaining a certification for a specific brand of equipment is a lot easier when you've got 10 years of TCP/IP background than it is when you're first being introduced to networking. Besides, experience is generally seen as a qualification. The scenario you posit is ridiculous on the face of it.
 
2012-12-31 03:08:45 PM

lennavan: bhcompy: Tuition wasn't low because there was no demand

Yes, exactly. The University of California definitely has lots of trouble filling its seats. Lots of Universities have this problem, it's not just a California thing.* Tuitions are rising all across the United States and it has nothing to do with state budgets cutting support to the Universities who are then forced to pass it on to the students. It's about supply and demand. If you look now versus a decade ago, the difference in enrollment is staggering.*

Think about it, do you know of anyone who has ever been turned down to a University? Hell have you ever even heard of or read about someone being turned down? No, of course not.** There are all sorts of empty seats.

*please dont look at any actual stats or facts that are easily available on the internet
** also please do not use your brain


Don't be so dumb. The difference in enrollment IS staggering, and it is at the big universities too. The ENROLLMENT hasn't changed; what has changed is the application rate. When I applied to UCLA in 1981, you could get accepted to just about any program you applied to, with the exception of Engineering and Medicine. Those were already "impacted" even in the early 80's. Every other program was wide open, assuming you made the other requirements. 20 years later, even obscure programs like Music Appreciation were impacted, and requirements had gotten a lot tighter: GPAs had gone up, SATs had gone up, entrance essays were required for nearly everyone. I was the last group to transfer in with a GPA below a 3.0 (in 1982); a year later I never would have gotten in. So when they say "demand wasn't there", they don't mean "nobody was applying", they mean that the number of people trying to get in was still what the University could handle. Prices were low because there were only a few thousand people competing for a few thousand seats.

Today, there are tens of thousands of people competing for the same few thousand seats. Raising the requirements hasn't slowed the application rate, so the next thing was to raise the prices. The same thing is true at community colleges. In 1980, I took classes at community college for $9 a unit, and I never once encountered a closed class. Today they start at ten times as much, and they're closed all the time because they fill up so quick. It IS, in fact, about supply and demand. There are only so many rooms on campus, and only so many seats per room; there are only so many teaching hours per day. One way to control inflow of students is to raise prices. Are you imagining that if only there was sufficient money somehow there would be adequate space and sufficient teachers to go around? Even a big campus like UCLA has finite resources.

Oh, and for the record, I've heard of people being turned down by universities all the time. Two in my own family.
 
2012-12-31 03:12:39 PM

peasandcarrots: Look, I don't know about the rest of you, but I went to college to go to college, not to actualize and incentivize my marketability in a fluid economy, and I'm bone-weary of the idea that college is some sort of farm league for businesses.


While I agree with most of what you wrote and paid my own way through school with my own existing career, too, it may not be a farm league for businesses, but it's certainly training for your life, you're there because there are things you don't know and want to know in order to get through this thing, and let's face it: for most people, about half of life, if not more than half of life, is going to be work.

That may be business, it may be government, it may be education, it may be charity, whatever, but that's what we're doing, and whether we like it or not, with the exception of the very few people who actually know us and love us, that's what we are: our work and what it means for them. If you're not going to college to make yourself better at what you do, I think you're missing out.

As for the English degree, you might be right that IT, Engineering, and Computer Science require a lifetime of learning to stay current (the unbridled horror, right?), but I should point out that degree inflation in the liberal arts is rapidly becoming so severe that you need a PhD to get an interview at a decent community college and yes, the qualifications seemingly can change. The g/f, a Philosophy professor, was recently shot down as a finalist candidate because of a new emphasis on "environmental philosophy" and her lack of background in it. I'm sure there are equivalent issues in English, especially when you consider that the university in the region has basically quit teaching it, on the utterly false assumption that their students should already be up to snuff and can develop their writing skills in "writing-emphasis" courses from other disciplines.

/ English is a legit field. Don't let anybody tell you otherwise. Comparative Literature, it's English for people who can't hack English.
 
2012-12-31 03:14:14 PM

grimlock1972: Not surprised the entire collegiate system in the US needs an overhaul to cut waste and bring down the cost of tuition and books, the prices for those are just plain unacceptable.

At the very least make all student loan debt dis-chargeable in bankruptcy after 10 years post college.


Then no one will loan you the money without collateral.
 
2012-12-31 03:15:22 PM

monoski: Imagine when they find out they can take that $150k and start up their own venture (maybe even a Bucks franchise) skip the 4 years of drinking and whoring and get right down the business of working for a living...


Yes, because I'm sure a teenager right out of high school with no experience will be able to get a $150K loan.
 
2012-12-31 03:21:51 PM

gja: Great Janitor: At an old job I noticed that the HR department got final approval on all budgets. The IT department was shafted every time. One year the approved budget for the IT Christmas party was $500 and the HR Christmas party was $18,000. I asked "Is HR full of liberal art majors who spent college constantly being told that they were getting useless degrees compared to Computer Science majors and now are punishing the IT department as some sort of personal vendetta?"

Left that job with an exist interview survey asking how more of them weren't in prison.

That's not the wisest way to approach such a situation, friend.
[encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com image 289x174]


I was in accounting. The rules that they had in place, that HR drafted for the entire company to follow was if an employee who isn't in HR or a VP or higher spends money and expenses it out for a refund, a receipt and business purpose must be given. If it is a VP, business purpose and receipt if over $100. If HR, nothing is needed. For over night travel, most employees were limited to $75 a night per hotel room and a dinner of $30, receipts needed, only one alcoholic drink allowed. For HR, just accept what is expensed out, and don't question anything. I saw some of hour HR people stay in $700/night hotel suites. Some even had family members (which was against the company policy, unless HR states otherwise). When it came to supplies, most departments got everything second hand and refurbished, including IT. HR got everything brand new and top of the line. The only department that never had to lay people off or go onto a hiring freeze was HR. The top paid people in the company, outside the VPs, were HR people. When I left, HR was the company that had to approve promotions, pay raises and transfers of staff from one department to the next. So each year when it came time for that annual review, your boss could say that you deserve a 3% pay raise, your boss's boss could agree, and HR could say "No, 1.5%" and not even have to justify it.

I had a theory that HR was using the expense reporting account to buy stuff, get the company to reimburse them for it, and then keep it and/or sell it else where. Which is why I asked why they weren't in prison. Several of us had emails that we had drafted at home on our personal computers for to be sent to places in both the state and federal government, naming names, dates and questionable events. The number of people on my list from HR was amazing. The amount of money that the HR department spent on itself was unreal, and when the very first department forced to make cut backs were the IT department, it really made people start to wonder what was going on. Especially when they purposely expanded into the IT department forcing layoffs in that department and refusing to let them expand or move anywhere.
 
2012-12-31 03:25:39 PM
College is not for everybody and is not necessary for many things, especially at the cost of going into such overwhelming debt. You can laways learn things without college.
 
2012-12-31 03:28:48 PM

Gyrfalcon: Don't be so dumb. The difference in enrollment IS staggering, and it is at the big universities too. The ENROLLMENT hasn't changed; what has changed is the application rate.


So the number of paying students is the same but the number of people applying has changed, therefore that drives tuition prices at a non-profit University? Goddamn you're stupid.

Gyrfalcon: 20 years later, even obscure programs like Music Appreciation were impacted, and requirements had gotten a lot tighter: GPAs had gone up, SATs had gone up, entrance essays were required for nearly everyone. I was the last group to transfer in with a GPA below a 3.0 (in 1982); a year later I never would have gotten in.


BECAUSE THE NUMBER APPLICATIONS WENT UP. You see, Universities have X slots to fill every year. So they take the top students they can get to fill those X slots. The number of applications always exceeds X, so in budget decisions, Universities never give a fark about enrollment numbers. They always know it will be X.

Gyrfalcon: One way to control inflow of students is to raise prices.


You think Universities control how many students they enroll by raising prices? Holy farking shiat this is stupid. Dude, Universities control how many students they enroll by only accepting a specific amount of students. It's not rocket science.

Gyrfalcon: Raising the requirements hasn't slowed the application rate


There isn't a single college or University in the world that wants to slow the application rate. Not one. There is absolutely zero reason to slow that rate. Not one.

Gyrfalcon: Are you imagining that if only there was sufficient money somehow there would be adequate space and sufficient teachers to go around?


I am telling you because there is limited space and teachers, the enrollment size of a major college or University is a pre-determined number to be whatever the fark they want it to be. It has nothing to do with how many students apply because there are always more applications than students. Tuition has absolutely nothing to do with supply and demand of students. The number of students does not change.

Community colleges are completely different. Where they get their money from is different. What their budget is a function of is different. But ultimately, there isn't a single community college that costs anywhere near $150,000, so those are not what we are talking about.
 
2012-12-31 03:31:07 PM

ProfessorOhki: Coastalgrl: The cost of books is outrageous. I get a tuition waiver in exchange for teaching/research thankfully so Im not getting any more student lons. But this is the first time I'm at a school who uses Barnes and Noble as their bookseller. I have never seen more overpriced books in my life. If I went with the school for my books this term, it would total $800 for 2 grad and 1 undergrad class. I had a few of the books already and only purchased books for the undergrad class......managed to skate for $320 using Amazon but that's for one class.

These better be the best programming books ever.

They were not. You only need the one book and it's like $45. $20 if you can convince an old UNIX guy to part with one of his copies.

[cm.bell-labs.com image 196x256]
/fark textbook publishers


Still the best programming book ever written.
 
2012-12-31 03:47:06 PM

freewill: bhcompy: It's not about the money, it's about the relative purchasing power. Sounds like he's in the right area if he's happy and makes over the median. That's all that really matters.

The Secret of Life is entering a moderately high-earning field where you can telecommute from a low-cost area.

Seriously.


I'm actively working on that final part now. I figure I could get some acreage and a few dogs, maybe even hire a security guard on what I make if I moved to Indiana.
 
2012-12-31 03:48:13 PM

Wangiss: freewill: bhcompy: It's not about the money, it's about the relative purchasing power. Sounds like he's in the right area if he's happy and makes over the median. That's all that really matters.

The Secret of Life is entering a moderately high-earning field where you can telecommute from a low-cost area.

Seriously.

I'm actively working on that final part now. I figure I could get some acreage and a few dogs, maybe even hire a security guard on what I make if I moved to Indiana.


Make sure you move close enough to a major metro area that you can commute to work if you lose your job.

/learned from experience
 
2012-12-31 03:54:39 PM
I took up space in college and got my degree in aerospace engineering back in 1987. I lived with my folks, commuted by bus or carpool for the 4-1/2 years to get my degree, went to the University of Minnesota instead of a snooty private college, and worked at McVomitBurger--and paid off my $2800 in student loans before I graduated. Heck, I got my degree for about $10,000 total.

Good thing I paid things off. I graduated just as the aerospace industry was going into a long slump from which it never really recovered--this was when all of Reagan's Star Wars programs had their budgets drastically slashed. I ended up working in boring clerical jobs for the next couple of decades until I made enough as an artist to escape the Rat Race. It's been a year and a half since I last had a temp job and if I get an important music-video gig and some gigs related to a toy I'm a consultant on, I might permanently escape the corporate world entirely.

I don't regret getting my college degree as it was a matter of pride in my family. I do regret studying rocket science and if I could do things all over again, I'd get a degree in art, but the other things I studied besides math and engineering made college worthwhile to me. What sucks about college is that people have to invest 4 years of effort and a lot of money when they're probably not even certain what it is they want to do for the rest of their lives...

/whoo, hoo!
 
2012-12-31 03:55:39 PM

Pincy: monoski: Imagine when they find out they can take that $150k and start up their own venture (maybe even a Bucks franchise) skip the 4 years of drinking and whoring and get right down the business of working for a living...

Yes, because I'm sure a teenager right out of high school with no experience will be able to get a $150K loan.


Only a fool (the US Tax Payers) would back that sucker...
 
2012-12-31 03:57:15 PM
www.brookings.edu

www.investmentpostcards.com
66.147.244.137

blogs.vcu.edu
 
2012-12-31 04:00:46 PM

Psycat: I took up space in college and got my degree in aerospace engineering back in 1987. I lived with my folks, commuted by bus or carpool for the 4-1/2 years to get my degree, went to the University of Minnesota instead of a snooty private college, and worked at McVomitBurger--and paid off my $2800 in student loans before I graduated. Heck, I got my degree for about $10,000 total.


I lived with a gang of Indian serial rapists, commuted 17 miles each way by foot through an Arctic wasteland and worked as an indentured servant, which permitted me to pay of my $2,799 in student loans before I graduated.

I could have gone to one of those snooty "accredited" schools, but I knew that if I went to a less prestigious institution, I could serve more effectively as an obnoxious, unsolicited mentor on Internet forum posts.
 
2012-12-31 04:00:49 PM

lilplatinum: Is this the thread where the IT monkeys with their CS Degrees and crappy jobs go and mock people who have the types of degrees that their bosses do?


No, this is the thread that engineering majors who dropped out mock IT monkeys with their CS Degrees.

/With no degree I still make +/- what my brother does with an MBA
//And we are both very gainfully employed in the Defense industry
 
2012-12-31 04:04:03 PM

ProfessorOhki: Coastalgrl: The cost of books is outrageous. I get a tuition waiver in exchange for teaching/research thankfully so Im not getting any more student lons. But this is the first time I'm at a school who uses Barnes and Noble as their bookseller. I have never seen more overpriced books in my life. If I went with the school for my books this term, it would total $800 for 2 grad and 1 undergrad class. I had a few of the books already and only purchased books for the undergrad class......managed to skate for $320 using Amazon but that's for one class.

These better be the best programming books ever.

They were not. You only need the one book and it's like $45. $20 if you can convince an old UNIX guy to part with one of his copies.

[cm.bell-labs.com image 196x256]
/fark textbook publishers


Actually, my original copy was xeroxed from an old Unix guy.

/And you'll get my "official" copy when you pull it from my cold, dead hands
 
2012-12-31 04:09:28 PM

Treygreen13: Who spends 150k on an education that doesn't end with medical school or the bar exam?


Engineers?
 
2012-12-31 04:15:49 PM

The_Gallant_Gallstone: Psycat: I took up space in college and got my degree in aerospace engineering back in 1987. I lived with my folks, commuted by bus or carpool for the 4-1/2 years to get my degree, went to the University of Minnesota instead of a snooty private college, and worked at McVomitBurger--and paid off my $2800 in student loans before I graduated. Heck, I got my degree for about $10,000 total.

I lived with a gang of Indian serial rapists, commuted 17 miles each way by foot through an Arctic wasteland and worked as an indentured servant, which permitted me to pay of my $2,799 in student loans before I graduated.

I could have gone to one of those snooty "accredited" schools, but I knew that if I went to a less prestigious institution, I could serve more effectively as an obnoxious, unsolicited mentor on Internet forum posts.


The University of Minnesota is accredited and is a very good land-grant school. I'm guessing you're some idiot with a B.S. in Butthurt and eleventy-zillion dollars in loans, and my post irritated you to the point where you had to make an obnoxious, unsolicited reply. You made it pretty obvious that I hit a nerve, so suck it while I work my dream job as a full-time artist...
 
2012-12-31 04:18:12 PM
I've been staring blankly at my computer try justify what possessed me to get a science degree and an arts degree... Theater and botany. A waste of five years, but I busted my ass and walked away with $126 of debt.

However, whenever I am feeling too proud or secure with the choices I have made in my life, I just come to Fark.

Excuse me for a moment, a customer came in and I have to make an americano for them.

True story.
 
2012-12-31 04:21:33 PM

Psycat: The University of Minnesota is accredited and is a very good land-grant school. I'm guessing you're some idiot with a B.S. in Butthurt and eleventy-zillion dollars in loans, and my post irritated you to the point where you had to make an obnoxious, unsolicited reply. You made it pretty obvious that I hit a nerve, so suck it while I work my dream job as a full-time artist...


I was trying to figure out what that guy's problem was, myself. It's either the worthless degree and a fortune in loans or it's opposite, he never went and is pissed to think he could have done it affordably. Either way, your point was good.

For the most part, nobody really gives a shiat where you go to undergrad. With a few exceptions, you aren't doing yourself any favors choosing an expensive big name and taking out enough loans to drink and party over working a little while you go to a reputable state school where you can get in-state tuition. That's for starry eyed teenagers who think their "college experience" is going to be anything more than a fading blip on the radar of their life once they get out of there and start their careers.

/ ...and it will be, if you spend the rest of your life paying off six figures of loans as a waiter.
 
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