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(Huffington Post)   As more and more young people question the value of going $150,000 in debt so they can get a job as a Starbuck's barista, America's small liberal-arts colleges face a struggle for survival   (huffingtonpost.com) divider line 247
    More: Obvious, arts, Starbucks, U.S. universities, civic engagement, Beloit College, degree programs, academic major, climbing walls  
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5003 clicks; posted to Main » on 31 Dec 2012 at 12:59 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



247 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2012-12-31 01:02:18 PM  
My heart bleeds
 
2012-12-31 01:02:43 PM  
College? I never went to college....just graduated from high school, and filled out an application and here I am, making your Venti Mocha

cdn2.holytaco.com
 
2012-12-31 01:03:21 PM  
Starbuck's

ಠ_ಠ
 
2012-12-31 01:04:08 PM  
Going to community college and paying $36/credit for a liberal arts education is much more efficient than going to Haverford and spending $60,000 per year unless you're using it as a springboard to grad school. That is really the only valid reason to attend a prestigious liberal arts college these days.
 
2012-12-31 01:04:11 PM  
Forced to evolve with the market?  Does this mean that I only needed to wait a few years in order to actually GET a barista degree, instead of just pretending that the one I have is it?

/didn't go into debt for it either
//pell grants and financial aid FTW
 
2012-12-31 01:04:50 PM  
Not surprised the entire collegiate system in the US needs an overhaul to cut waste and bring down the cost of tuition and books, the prices for those are just plain unacceptable.

At the very least make all student loan debt dis-chargeable in bankruptcy after 10 years post college.
 
2012-12-31 01:05:56 PM  
The girl here at work wants to go back to school to finish her degree in dance and public speaking. She was faxing paperwork from my desk to someone, it was how much she owed in loans already......WOW, she is getting hosed.
 
2012-12-31 01:06:31 PM  
If you are paying for an education and have internet access, you are doing it wrong.
 
2012-12-31 01:06:51 PM  
i.qkme.me
 
2012-12-31 01:07:02 PM  
No, I don't know a Fawn Libowitz, but here are your two tall cafe lattes...

blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com
 
2012-12-31 01:07:17 PM  

groppet: dance and public speaking.........WOW, she is getting hosed


Well, dancers are notorious Hose Beasts.
 
2012-12-31 01:07:32 PM  
A lot of talk about redefining who they are, but not much about these colleges reducing the cost of their degree programs. Isn't that what a capitalist market should demand?
 
2012-12-31 01:08:06 PM  
steklo : I always wondered what happened to Natasha Stillwell.
 
2012-12-31 01:08:57 PM  
More and more I question the value of college. I was fed the "Go to college, get an education, make more money." I did that, found that you can make more money not going into college and instead, going into sales or starting your own business. If you have a calling and a burning desire to become a lawyer, doctor, scientist or engineer, then college definitely. If not, them the debt isn't worth it.
 
2012-12-31 01:09:00 PM  
The Student Loan Scam: Creating a generation of indentured servants for the pleasure of our Corporate Overlords.
 
TWX
2012-12-31 01:09:13 PM  
Blame the lack of value as perceived by the public at large coupled with the rise of "business school".

Classical education used to help broaden the minds of those who graduated from it. Those people would go on to be civic leaders and their broadened worldview and knowledge outside of the provincial education they otherwise would have been limited by would help them to be better civic leaders, politicians, and yes, bureaucrats. We now elect those with lesser educations tailored toward understanding one's fellow man, which is evident in political discourse these days.

I see business school as primarily a way to give degrees to people who abhor the concept of the classical liberal arts education that used to produce industry management and businessmen. Those business school graduates often think they know what's best for everyone even though they really don't have much experience with other facets of life and really don't know how others live or how to really make improvements, as their education was too narrow, too tailored.

People like to claim that Bachelor of Science degrees don't prepare graduates with a well-enough-rounded education, but that seems to be a much wider problem.
 
2012-12-31 01:10:11 PM  
Oh, it's this schtick again.

/Liberal Arts Major.
//Gainfully Employed
 
2012-12-31 01:10:12 PM  

LiberalZombie: A lot of talk about redefining who they are, but not much about these colleges reducing the cost of their degree programs. Isn't that what a capitalist market should demand?


But dude, then how could the campus cafe afford to give away the free certified organic soy vegan gluten free nutrition experience?
 
2012-12-31 01:10:13 PM  
I don't get a kick out of people being unemployed, but as someone with a degree from a small liberal arts college and a job...
 
2012-12-31 01:11:06 PM  

letrole: [i.qkme.me image 400x600]


Looks like the typical Johnston State Co-Ed here in Vermont. Got kicked out of a more prestigious school for doing too much acid and such, then mommy and daddy buy her a jeep and a year long ski pass and tuition at JSC, with a lease on an apartment in town, so she can have her privacy while throwing wild parties and farking 57 year old men she met on Alt dot com. (hey, firsthand knowledge) Yep,
 
2012-12-31 01:11:09 PM  
Who spends 150k on an education that doesn't end with medical school or the bar exam?
 
2012-12-31 01:11:25 PM  

vudukungfu: If you are paying for an education and have internet access, you are doing it wrong.



They're not paying for an "education", they're paying for an "official piece of paper" that says they jumped through hoops.
 
2012-12-31 01:11:34 PM  
i.qkme.me
 
2012-12-31 01:12:17 PM  
Perhaps, underwater basket weaving does not have nearly the marketability that your faculty advisor intimated that it had.

/ $200,000 for a photography degree at a NYU is just 'tardy
 
2012-12-31 01:12:24 PM  

steklo: College? I never went to college....just graduated from high school, and filled out an application and here I am, making your Venti Mocha

[cdn2.holytaco.com image 300x199]


....That was 15 years ago and I'm still here. I've just applied for a senior barista position though. It's a lot better, financially - an extra 50c an hour. I hope I get it!
 
2012-12-31 01:12:35 PM  

bhcompy: Going to community college and paying $36/credit for a liberal arts education is much more efficient than going to Haverford and spending $60,000 per year unless you're using it as a springboard to grad school. That is really the only valid reason to attend a prestigious liberal arts college these days.


What is really funny is to watch the Ivory Tower folks get schooled by a bunch of grubby hayseeds from the middle of flyover country.

/Though, in all fairness, many of the Harvard Grads don't need a job in the first place.
 
2012-12-31 01:12:52 PM  
One day, I won't just be working here. I'll own the place and install a stripping pole.
gothamist.com
 
2012-12-31 01:13:51 PM  

TWX:
I see business school as primarily a way to give degrees to people who abhor the concept of the classical liberal arts education that used to produce industry management and businessmen. Those business school graduates often think they know what's best for everyone even though they really don't have much experience with other facets of life and really don't know how others live or how to really make improvements, as their education was too narrow, too tailored.


THIS!!!

I never found such one-dimensional people as when dealing with people in business school. If it wasn't in a book, or something they encountered before, they didn't know how to deal with it.
 
2012-12-31 01:13:57 PM  
Without the education I received at Faber, I never would have made it where I am today - wherever that is.

D-Day
 
2012-12-31 01:14:12 PM  
Is this the thread where the IT monkeys with their CS Degrees and crappy jobs go and mock people who have the types of degrees that their bosses do?
 
2012-12-31 01:14:59 PM  
At least I got a decent scholarship to go to my small, mid-western liberal arts college. And at least I got a degree that said I actually majored in something.
 
2012-12-31 01:15:54 PM  
Imagine when they find out they can take that $150k and start up their own venture (maybe even a Bucks franchise) skip the 4 years of drinking and whoring and get right down the business of working for a living...
 
2012-12-31 01:17:08 PM  
As more and more young people question the value of going $150,000 in debt so they can get a job as a Starbuck's barista
Till his point thought you were talking about Boob jobs.
Much better investment.
IMO
 
2012-12-31 01:17:16 PM  

Amos Quito: vudukungfu: If you are paying for an education and have internet access, you are doing it wrong.


They're not paying for an "education", they're paying for an "official piece of paper" that says they jumped through hoops.


It's a piece of paper that says "I'm trainable" and "I can show up somewhere consistently." That's about it for an undergrad degree, but for most entry level jobs that's about all an employer really needs to know. After entry level, your career experience speaks a lot louder than your degree.

Obviously, exceptions do apply.
 
2012-12-31 01:17:30 PM  

TWX: Blame the lack of value as perceived by the public at large coupled with the rise of "business school".

Classical education used to help broaden the minds of those who graduated from it. Those people would go on to be civic leaders and their broadened worldview and knowledge outside of the provincial education they otherwise would have been limited by would help them to be better civic leaders, politicians, and yes, bureaucrats. We now elect those with lesser educations tailored toward understanding one's fellow man, which is evident in political discourse these days.

I see business school as primarily a way to give degrees to people who abhor the concept of the classical liberal arts education that used to produce industry management and businessmen. Those business school graduates often think they know what's best for everyone even though they really don't have much experience with other facets of life and really don't know how others live or how to really make improvements, as their education was too narrow, too tailored.

People like to claim that Bachelor of Science degrees don't prepare graduates with a well-enough-rounded education, but that seems to be a much wider problem.


I don't know where you copy-pasted that from, but it's a good point and bears repeating.
 
2012-12-31 01:17:35 PM  
What? Sure, I'll meet you out back by the dumbster for a little cream swapping!

j-walk.com
 
2012-12-31 01:17:42 PM  

Great Janitor: More and more I question the value of college. I was fed the "Go to college, get an education, make more money." I did that, found that you can make more money not going into college and instead, going into sales or starting your own business. If you have a calling and a burning desire to become a lawyer, doctor, scientist or engineer, then college definitely. If not, them the debt isn't worth it.


Sales has never really required a degree. You just have to be a salesman. I have learned that I am not. It seems to be one of those things that is innate in people and then grows with better with the good ones.
 
2012-12-31 01:17:48 PM  

Amos Quito: The Student Loan Scam: Creating a generation of indentured servants for the pleasure of our Corporate Overlords.


Sadly, that's absolutely true. What makes student loans even worse is that they are not discharged in a bankruptcy (I do understand the reason for this but there needs to be exceptions). Even worse than that is, depending on your laon servicer, the debt from your loans is passed on if you die, making your next of kin a slave too.

The higher education system in this country desperately needs to be completely overhauled. Student loans and financial aid, text book prices, public institutions essentially functioning as for profit entities. It all needs to be fixed and very farking soon.

/Still paying student loans.
//Barely employed at the moment.
///But apparently the recession is over...
 
2012-12-31 01:18:29 PM  

monoski: Imagine when they find out they can take that $150k and start up their own venture (maybe even a Bucks franchise) skip the 4 years of drinking and whoring and get right down the business of working for a living...


Because most 17-19 year olds who jump into starting a business are going to succeed...
 
2012-12-31 01:18:48 PM  
The trick is to go to the small liberal arts college, but major in something useful like math. That way you are employable immediately, but you're also well-rounded enough, and can think well enough to progress.
 
2012-12-31 01:19:19 PM  
I contemplated racking up the debt, getting a degree in electrical engineering, and then leaving the country. While I'm sure my ass would be handed to me if I tried to reenter I'd like to think US creditors can only go so far in legally harassing you outside of the country. Canada might have something but I doubt Australia or England would be terribly happy working with American creditors.

All that aside, my parents cosigned a loan I have and I couldn't saddle them with debt. I was even talking to my mom about it and her response was something along the lines of "it isn't that much debt". She's right, it isn't. But it's my debt and not my parents debt. I racked it up and it is my responsibility to either pay it back or deal with the consequences. If I leave the country the consequences will be theirs to deal with and that isn't fair to them.

/at least EE is a useful degree
 
2012-12-31 01:19:26 PM  
lilplatinum:
Is this the thread where the IT monkeys with their CS Degrees and crappy jobs go and mock people who have the types of degrees that their bosses do?


No. This is the thread where those with liberal arts degrees make half-hearted attempts to justify taking the long way round to an exciting career of part-time clerical work.
 
2012-12-31 01:20:34 PM  
Since that hasn't happened in here, I'm going to say "no".
 
2012-12-31 01:21:17 PM  
On the team of our current NSF project, 5 of the 7 team members are graduates of small liberal arts colleges , so I'm getting a kick out of these replies.
 
2012-12-31 01:21:37 PM  

letrole: lilplatinum:
Is this the thread where the IT monkeys with their CS Degrees and crappy jobs go and mock people who have the types of degrees that their bosses do?


No. This is the thread where those with liberal arts degrees make half-hearted attempts to justify taking the long way round to an exciting career of part-time clerical work.


Hey fix my computer, monkey, I have to go get loaded at lunch because I can.
 
2012-12-31 01:21:38 PM  

lilplatinum: Is this the thread where the IT monkeys with their CS Degrees and crappy jobs go and mock people who have the types of degrees that their bosses do?


The Entertainment tab has threads where bosses are people who have liberal arts degrees. Real life, not so much.
 
2012-12-31 01:22:03 PM  
The market is flooded with "for profit" colleges like University of Phoenix. The government makes it extremely easy for people to get loans for tens of thousands of dollars. Those loans cannot be wiped out by bankruptcy.

Ya think colleges are predatory? Ya think some good schools get squeezed out by the for profit ones?

Community college for the win. Get your general ed. stuff out of the way. Spend a couple years figuring out what you really want your major to be. Then coordinate with where you want to get your four-year degree from and determine what you can transfer.
 
2012-12-31 01:22:21 PM  

Amos Quito: vudukungfu: If you are paying for an education and have internet access, you are doing it wrong.


They're not paying for an "education", they're paying for an "official piece of paper" that says they jumped through hoops.


This is largely true. Sadly, it often takes that "official piece of paper" before a prospective employer will even consider you.
 
2012-12-31 01:22:41 PM  

Amos Quito: The Student Loan Scam: Creating a generation of indentured servants for the pleasure of our Corporate Overlords.


That's it and that's all, really. It's almost like the War on Drugs, so many entities are massively profiting from the system that it will take a serious, radical act for it to be changed.
 
2012-12-31 01:23:20 PM  

sand_in_my_vagoo: Even worse than that is, depending on your laon servicer, the debt from your loans is passed on if you die, making your next of kin a slave too.


YMMV, but my wife and I just went through this when her father died. In NY State you can't inherit debt.
 
2012-12-31 01:23:25 PM  

APE992: I contemplated racking up the debt, getting a degree in electrical engineering, and then leaving the country. While I'm sure my ass would be handed to me if I tried to reenter I'd like to think US creditors can only go so far in legally harassing you outside of the country. Canada might have something but I doubt Australia or England would be terribly happy working with American creditors.



Ha, good luck - with the way banks report on US citizen's bank accounts abroad, you can't hide from shiat. the University of Texas sent me a farking collection attempt on a 6 year old parking ticket to my home address in Germany.
 
2012-12-31 01:23:28 PM  

meathome: TWX:
I see business school as primarily a way to give degrees to people who abhor the concept of the classical liberal arts education that used to produce industry management and businessmen. Those business school graduates often think they know what's best for everyone even though they really don't have much experience with other facets of life and really don't know how others live or how to really make improvements, as their education was too narrow, too tailored.


THIS!!!

I never found such one-dimensional people as when dealing with people in business school. If it wasn't in a book, or something they encountered before, they didn't know how to deal with it.


one of my former bosses, the ceo of a financial institution, said that he would prefer to hire people with liberal arts backgrounds who picked up business at a graduate level. he said people who go straight through business school as undergraduates have a tendency to be too shortsighted to be effective in the long term. also, they can't write or communicate. basically, he said that people with liberal arts backgrounds and business degrees are more likely to be successful at the higher levels than people who limit themselves to business.

/ decided business school was not for me and returned to liberal arts (law).
 
2012-12-31 01:24:32 PM  
Well, that sucks. How else am I supposed to get my chai with a side of condescension and angst?
 
2012-12-31 01:25:09 PM  
www.examiner.com
 
2012-12-31 01:26:38 PM  
lilplatinum: Hey fix my computer, monkey, I have to go get loaded at lunch because I can.

You get loaded at lunch because you never deal with clients or make decisions. You can get away with such behaviour if you're a passenger, or a bimbo.
 
2012-12-31 01:26:55 PM  
Liberal? Sure I'm liberal. I'll date anyone that asks me out.

skywalker.cochise.edu:8080
 
2012-12-31 01:27:17 PM  
The older I get, the more lucky I feel that my parents were ball-busters when it came to academics AND activities throughout school. I got a full scholarship via Navy ROTC, which included books, summer training and a guaranteed, 4-year job after college. My total time spent with Uncle Sam totaled 11 years, and I came away completely debt free with not only an attractive BS diploma but a career-founding resume that has served me since.

School debt is a monster deadweight on so many of my contemporaries, and as tuition/fees rise quickly while wages have stagnated for decades, the problem will only get worse. Schools, lenders, and public education policy makers have got to pull their sh*t together and get education costs under control.
 
2012-12-31 01:27:45 PM  
Engineering degree, $0 of debt.

Eat it.
 
2012-12-31 01:29:30 PM  

lilplatinum: letrole: lilplatinum:
Is this the thread where the IT monkeys with their CS Degrees and crappy jobs go and mock people who have the types of degrees that their bosses do?


No. This is the thread where those with liberal arts degrees make half-hearted attempts to justify taking the long way round to an exciting career of part-time clerical work.

Hey fix my computer, monkey, I have to go get loaded at lunch because I can.


You're working today?
 
2012-12-31 01:29:30 PM  

letrole: lilplatinum: Hey fix my computer, monkey, I have to go get loaded at lunch because I can.

You get loaded at lunch because you never deal with clients or make decisions. You can get away with such behaviour if you're a passenger, or a bimbo.


You, apparently, have never met a ship broker. This industry is still stuck in Mad Men mentality.
 
2012-12-31 01:29:59 PM  
heh heh, see my buddy here? Liberal? Heck, he couldn't even serve a latte at the DNC....

biginterview.com
 
2012-12-31 01:30:18 PM  

Molavian: lilplatinum: letrole: lilplatinum:
Is this the thread where the IT monkeys with their CS Degrees and crappy jobs go and mock people who have the types of degrees that their bosses do?


No. This is the thread where those with liberal arts degrees make half-hearted attempts to justify taking the long way round to an exciting career of part-time clerical work.

Hey fix my computer, monkey, I have to go get loaded at lunch because I can.

You're working today?


From home, obviously diligently.
 
2012-12-31 01:30:36 PM  

The All-Powerful Atheismo: Engineering degree, $0 of debt.

Eat it.


History and Philosophy degree, $0 of debt. Gainfully and happily employed.

Did you have a point?
 
2012-12-31 01:30:56 PM  
Perhaps if the people who pursue liberal arts degrees could learn to properly spell and punctuate, they wouldn't have to work at a place like "Starbuck's".

/Your apostrophe license is hereby revoked, tardmitter.
 
2012-12-31 01:31:14 PM  
Is this the thread where we all make fun of education and point out how pointless it is to learn how to think?
 
2012-12-31 01:31:54 PM  
Could be worse, they could have gone to law school or gone for MBAs
 
2012-12-31 01:32:03 PM  

Louisiana_Sitar_Club: This is largely true. Sadly, it often takes that "official piece of paper" before a prospective employer will even consider you.


My employer hired me knowing I had no degree.
Now, 12 years later, many have come and gone with their degrees.
I'm still here. and doing fine. (Also, I could have moved up may times, but I like the rung I'm on)

Point is. Any one can be trained to do anything.
Hell, look at who ultimately get the launch codes.
 
2012-12-31 01:32:23 PM  

SkunkWerks: Oh, it's this schtick again.

/Liberal Arts Major.
//Gainfully Employed


STFU and give me my fries.
 
2012-12-31 01:32:30 PM  

jasenj1: The market is flooded with "for profit" colleges like University of Phoenix. The government makes it extremely easy for people to get loans for tens of thousands of dollars. Those loans cannot be wiped out by bankruptcy.

Ya think colleges are predatory? Ya think some good schools get squeezed out by the for profit ones?

Community college for the win. Get your general ed. stuff out of the way. Spend a couple years figuring out what you really want your major to be. Then coordinate with where you want to get your four-year degree from and determine what you can transfer.


This is what needs to be engraved in our school houses, not the Ten Commandments. The "For-Profit" industry is a giant scam. ITT Tech, ECPI, Phoenix, Strayer, Virginia College... all of them are scams. F*ck that noise. I'd like to think that whole scheme will come crashing down within a generation.

And if your child "surprises" you with an acceptance letter, send them to community college FIRST. The credits will transfer if they are meant for higher education, but the bills won't sting if they're not. Even in South Carolina we have great, public, very affordable "Technical Colleges" for this purpose.
 
2012-12-31 01:33:08 PM  
Christ, I'm still paying off my college by working at this hell whole coffee shop and I graduated in 1967! Did you want whipped cream for that frap?

www.westchestermagazine.com
 
2012-12-31 01:34:35 PM  

Ed_Severson: Perhaps if the people who pursue liberal arts degrees could learn to properly spell and punctuate, they wouldn't have to work at a place like "Starbuck's".

/Your apostrophe license is hereby revoked, tardmitter.


I'd be careful using that word, you might summon a certain FARKER. ( who shall remain unnamed...)
 
2012-12-31 01:34:46 PM  

meathome: I never found such one-dimensional people as when dealing with people in business school. If it wasn't in a book, or something they encountered before, they didn't know how to deal with it.


Or, because they make everyone go to college to be a barista these days, these were people that were one dimensional and had no idea how to deal with anything before and after college simply because they were that way already. A liberal arts education doesn't change who you are
 
2012-12-31 01:34:54 PM  

Ed_Severson: Perhaps if the people who pursue liberal arts degrees could learn to properly spell and punctuate, they wouldn't have to work at a place like "Starbuck's".

/Your apostrophe license is hereby revoked, tardmitter.


Your period license is temporarily suspended.
 
2012-12-31 01:34:56 PM  
This is why white people will never riot. Between student loans and mortgage debt, most everyone from 18-70 can't afford the consequences.
 
2012-12-31 01:35:25 PM  
lilplatinum: Hey fix my computer, monkey, I have to go get loaded at lunch because I can.

letrole: You get loaded at lunch because you never deal with clients or make decisions. You can get away with such behaviour if you're a passenger, or a bimbo.

lilplatinum: You, apparently, have never met a ship broker. This industry is still stuck in Mad Men mentality.

Mad Men is to the early sixties advertising business what Hogan's Heroes was to being in a German POW camp.
 
2012-12-31 01:35:57 PM  
jaclpetersen.files.wordpress.com

Melissa shows the newbie how to handle her boy-friend, by showing her how to dispense the whipped cream...
 
2012-12-31 01:36:47 PM  

lilplatinum: APE992: I contemplated racking up the debt, getting a degree in electrical engineering, and then leaving the country. While I'm sure my ass would be handed to me if I tried to reenter I'd like to think US creditors can only go so far in legally harassing you outside of the country. Canada might have something but I doubt Australia or England would be terribly happy working with American creditors.


Ha, good luck - with the way banks report on US citizen's bank accounts abroad, you can't hide from shiat. the University of Texas sent me a farking collection attempt on a 6 year old parking ticket to my home address in Germany.


Holy shiat.
 
2012-12-31 01:36:54 PM  

letrole: lilplatinum: Hey fix my computer, monkey, I have to go get loaded at lunch because I can.

letrole: You get loaded at lunch because you never deal with clients or make decisions. You can get away with such behaviour if you're a passenger, or a bimbo.

lilplatinum: You, apparently, have never met a ship broker. This industry is still stuck in Mad Men mentality.

Mad Men is to the early sixties advertising business what Hogan's Heroes was to being in a German POW camp.


Which is why I said mentality rather than "stuck in an episode of Mad Men." Damn inselaffen.
 
2012-12-31 01:36:55 PM  
Most college kids don't have the professional context to made high level business decisions, period.  And why would you expect them to?
 
2012-12-31 01:37:03 PM  

factoryconnection: The older I get, the more lucky I feel that my parents were ball-busters when it came to academics AND activities throughout school. I got a full scholarship via Navy ROTC, which included books, summer training and a guaranteed, 4-year job after college. My total time spent with Uncle Sam totaled 11 years, and I came away completely debt free with not only an attractive BS diploma but a career-founding resume that has served me since.

School debt is a monster deadweight on so many of my contemporaries, and as tuition/fees rise quickly while wages have stagnated for decades, the problem will only get worse. Schools, lenders, and public education policy makers have got to pull their sh*t together and get education costs under control.


I told my son to either get good at sports or enlist for a few years and get a free education. I regret not following the family Navy tradition to some degree, and it took just as long for me to find my feet. At least I don't have student loans, though.
 
2012-12-31 01:37:18 PM  

meathome: TWX:
I see business school as primarily a way to give degrees to people who abhor the concept of the classical liberal arts education that used to produce industry management and businessmen. Those business school graduates often think they know what's best for everyone even though they really don't have much experience with other facets of life and really don't know how others live or how to really make improvements, as their education was too narrow, too tailored.


THIS!!!

I never found such one-dimensional people as when dealing with people in business school. If it wasn't in a book, or something they encountered before, they didn't know how to deal with it.


Oh please; stop projecting your inadequacies on us. I have an Economics / Mathematics degree because I found those two subjects fascinating. I'd venture to say that for me my high school education was broad enough to satisfy my liberal arts needs.

Oh wait, by "If it wasn't in a book" you were referring to the radical-right. Right?

Or was it that you thought that "The liberal arts are those subjects or skills that in classical antiquity were considered essential for a free person, in other words, a citizen, to know in order to take an active part in civic life." was taught without books link?
 
2012-12-31 01:38:05 PM  

Wangiss: lilplatinum: APE992: I contemplated racking up the debt, getting a degree in electrical engineering, and then leaving the country. While I'm sure my ass would be handed to me if I tried to reenter I'd like to think US creditors can only go so far in legally harassing you outside of the country. Canada might have something but I doubt Australia or England would be terribly happy working with American creditors.


Ha, good luck - with the way banks report on US citizen's bank accounts abroad, you can't hide from shiat. the University of Texas sent me a farking collection attempt on a 6 year old parking ticket to my home address in Germany.

Holy shiat.


Amusingly they also threatened to withhold my undergrad diploma if I didn't pay it, something I found to be a pretty weak threate since I have it on my wall and have already finished grad school since then...
 
2012-12-31 01:38:16 PM  

steklo: What? Sure, I'll meet you out back by the dumbster for a little cream swapping!


Dumbster? Really? How dump can you be?
 
gja
2012-12-31 01:38:36 PM  

lilplatinum: Is this the thread where the IT monkeys with their CS Degrees and crappy jobs go and mock people who have the types of degrees that their bosses do?


LULZ, no. This is the thread where uwe bona fide engineers with the real degrees mock you ALL for choosing a line of work that is so volatile as we continue to get ahead even as our bosses come and go with their oh-so-wonderful-but-useless MBA's.
 
2012-12-31 01:38:48 PM  
Hey kids, having come from a poor family, I'd like you to know the following:

1) It is really, really, really stupid to go 150k in debt for a Bachelor's degree
2) If you _really_ want to go to that great school, then work your ass off in high school and forgo all those great things that everyone else is doing.
3) If you aren't very smart, then ignore 1 and 2, because it isn't going to matter.
4) Even if you do #2 and get your degree paid for (and thus no home mortgage level debt), don't expect your degree to be worth a damn when you get out in the real world. But the life experiences you had there may be worth it (at least, it was for me!)
5) If you are actually going to college because you want to _learn_ things you couldn't learn elsewhere, as opposed to getting a better job, etc., you are going to be very, very, very disappointed when you get there.
6) Yes, even at top 20 institutions.

College is to make networking connections (subset: drink and fark a lot, please!), qualify for graduate schools, learn more about yourself, expand your horizons a bit, and to possibly qualify to get hired somewhere. If you're going to college for any reason other than those things and you're taking out massive debt, you are making a very poor life choice.

/no, I don't care about your BA or BS -- I still won't hire you unless you can show me you can think well. Sorry! Your degrees, including your mba and law degree, are in fact as worthless as the Liberal Arts degrees. Thanks!
 
2012-12-31 01:39:05 PM  
I'm sorry sir, I only went to liberal arts college, I never learned how to spell. Christopher, does that begin with a "K"?

www.moodiereport.com
 
2012-12-31 01:39:37 PM  

Sweaty Dynamite: LiberalZombie: A lot of talk about redefining who they are, but not much about these colleges reducing the cost of their degree programs. Isn't that what a capitalist market should demand?

But dude, then how could the campus cafe afford to give away the free certified organic soy vegan gluten free nutrition experience?


Um...they don't. They charge you even more for meals-on top of tuition and books.
 
2012-12-31 01:40:36 PM  

gja: lilplatinum: Is this the thread where the IT monkeys with their CS Degrees and crappy jobs go and mock people who have the types of degrees that their bosses do?

LULZ, no. This is the thread where uwe bona fide engineers with the real degrees mock you ALL for choosing a line of work that is so volatile as we continue to get ahead even as our bosses come and go with their oh-so-wonderful-but-useless MBA's.


Yes, Engineers are the only profession with job stability in the world and the only profession that makes any money.

/the 1 in 10,000 Engineer who actually has some modicum of social skills actually can make himself pretty farking valuable, however.
 
2012-12-31 01:41:53 PM  

sand_in_my_vagoo: Amos Quito: The Student Loan Scam: Creating a generation of indentured servants for the pleasure of our Corporate Overlords.

Sadly, that's absolutely true. What makes student loans even worse is that they are not discharged in a bankruptcy (I do understand the reason for this but there needs to be exceptions). Even worse than that is, depending on your laon servicer, the debt from your loans is passed on if you die, making your next of kin a slave too.

The higher education system in this country desperately needs to be completely overhauled. Student loans and financial aid, text book prices, public institutions essentially functioning as for profit entities. It all needs to be fixed and very farking soon.

/Still paying student loans.
//Barely employed at the moment.
///But apparently the recession is over...


That's only true if they co-signed, or if you consolidated your loans and your spouse's loans. Although some shady servicing companies will try to convince people otherwise, which may be what you're referring to,

And, yeah, the whole system is at/near a breaking point. Will be very interesting to see what falls out over the next 10 years.
 
2012-12-31 01:42:07 PM  
Press the esspreso, press the espresso, that's all I ever hear around here. I'll show 'em, one day I'll be able to actually pour milk, as soon as I get my degree...

img13.imageshack.us
 
2012-12-31 01:43:10 PM  

genepool lifeboat: sand_in_my_vagoo: Even worse than that is, depending on your laon servicer, the debt from your loans is passed on if you die, making your next of kin a slave too.

YMMV, but my wife and I just went through this when her father died. In NY State you can't inherit debt.


Most debts no longer pass to next of kin. Some states allow some creditors to get away with more, some less. Debts, in general, no longer pass to next of kin.
 
2012-12-31 01:43:39 PM  
letrole: Mad Men is to the early sixties advertising business what Hogan's Heroes was to being in a German POW camp.

lilplatinum: Which is why I said mentality rather than "stuck in an episode of Mad Men." Damn inselaffen.


What you actually did was compare your business environment and you professional behaviour to a period tv drama that's riddled with inaccuracies and anachronisms.
 
2012-12-31 01:45:54 PM  

letrole: letrole: Mad Men is to the early sixties advertising business what Hogan's Heroes was to being in a German POW camp.

lilplatinum: Which is why I said mentality rather than "stuck in an episode of Mad Men." Damn inselaffen.


What you actually did was compare your business environment and you professional behaviour to a period tv drama that's riddled with inaccuracies and anachronisms.


And? The fact that it might not be an accurate representation of a certain industry at a certain place in a certain point in time means it can have no similarity to a mentality that exists in a different industry in a different place in a different point of time?

Gotcha.
 
2012-12-31 01:45:58 PM  

gja: lilplatinum: Is this the thread where the IT monkeys with their CS Degrees and crappy jobs go and mock people who have the types of degrees that their bosses do?

LULZ, no. This is the thread where uwe bona fide engineers with the real degrees mock you ALL for choosing a line of work that is so volatile as we continue to get ahead even as our bosses come and go with their oh-so-wonderful-but-useless MBA's.


I'm one of those liberal arts degree holders who has engineers working for him (btw, I respect them immensely, not knocking them at all). I find it very awesome, though, that we can all agree as we make more money than the average Joe that MBAs deserve to be humiliated and thrown into the fire.

In my department, unless you have requisite business experience to go with it (re: you got your MBA 25 years ago and have some notable talents or deeper business experience), having an MBA gets your application sent straight to the trash can, as it shows you are, in general, an exceptionally poor decision maker, procrastinator, or poor thinker. I'll take a degree in geology over an MBA any day of the week.
 
2012-12-31 01:46:20 PM  

steklo: Liberal? Sure I'm liberal. I'll date anyone that asks me out.

[skywalker.cochise.edu:8080 image 850x1133]


They put the cooking magazines right under the fitness magazines? Not sure if attempt at social engineering, or just cruel.
 
2012-12-31 01:46:56 PM  
That's funny, because most of the staff there seem to have some prime 'bo-bo school' liberal arts educations.
 
2012-12-31 01:46:57 PM  
i.ytimg.com

ok, see how my hand wraps around the cyldender? Ok, just apply the right amount of pressure, here, on the tip. Rub slowly, but firmly. Now, take the your other hand and stroke the bottom. Don't grab too tightly. Now, with your first hand, glide up and down, evenly until the cream appears on the tip. Now point it so it doesn't get in your eyes. It kinda stings if that happens...
 
2012-12-31 01:47:35 PM  

lilplatinum: gja: lilplatinum: Is this the thread where the IT monkeys with their CS Degrees and crappy jobs go and mock people who have the types of degrees that their bosses do?

LULZ, no. This is the thread where uwe bona fide engineers with the real degrees mock you ALL for choosing a line of work that is so volatile as we continue to get ahead even as our bosses come and go with their oh-so-wonderful-but-useless MBA's.

Yes, Engineers are the only profession with job stability in the world and the only profession that makes any money.

/the 1 in 10,000 Engineer who actually has some modicum of social skills actually can make himself pretty farking valuable, however.


Even engineering isn't safe in this global economy at this time. I know several that have been laid off and can not find jobs.
 
2012-12-31 01:48:07 PM  

lilplatinum: gja: lilplatinum: Is this the thread where the IT monkeys with their CS Degrees and crappy jobs go and mock people who have the types of degrees that their bosses do?

LULZ, no. This is the thread where uwe bona fide engineers with the real degrees mock you ALL for choosing a line of work that is so volatile as we continue to get ahead even as our bosses come and go with their oh-so-wonderful-but-useless MBA's.

Yes, Engineers are the only profession with job stability in the world and the only profession that makes any money.

/the 1 in 10,000 Engineer who actually has some modicum of social skills actually can make himself pretty farking valuable, however.


I've tended to find that most engineers have a modicum of social skills. I used to believe that old stereotype, but I just haven't seen it in the real world. It could have something to do with confirmation bias, though, as I tend to run completely unskilled people out of an interview, even if they're technically brilliant. But I'm in an industry and company where social skills are just as important as your talent level, and you'll crash projects if you can't play nice with people who you have every justifiable reason to want to run over with your car.
 
2012-12-31 01:48:56 PM  

lennavan: Your period license is temporarily suspended.


Sorry, both styles are acceptable. Try leaving America once in a while.
 
2012-12-31 01:49:22 PM  

Oliver Twisted: Great Janitor: More and more I question the value of college. I was fed the "Go to college, get an education, make more money." I did that, found that you can make more money not going into college and instead, going into sales or starting your own business. If you have a calling and a burning desire to become a lawyer, doctor, scientist or engineer, then college definitely. If not, them the debt isn't worth it.

Sales has never really required a degree. You just have to be a salesman. I have learned that I am not. It seems to be one of those things that is innate in people and then grows with better with the good ones.


I hear that quite a bit "I am just not a sales person." And in truth, people aren't sales people, they are just afraid of living on commission. They'd rather work 40 hours at $20/hour than work sales where you could earn what you would in a week at $20/hr just off of one sale that takes less than one day.

One guy said to me "I am not a sales person." I said "You are a douchebag who bangs a different hottie each week while living with your parents. You are probably the best salesman I know."
 
2012-12-31 01:50:23 PM  

vudukungfu: If you are paying for an education and have internet access, you are doing it wrong.


Right. Because people with no education are aces at distinguishing between online presentation of intelligent consideration of important issues, and the ignorant blog-ramblings of a poopflinging derp-monkey.
 
2012-12-31 01:51:08 PM  
I graduated from the University of Phoenix with a Bachelor's in Business with a concentration in Marketing. I'm making more money than anyone I grew up with, but I would recommend that path exclusively to people who:

1. Know what field they are entering
2. Are entering a field with a $50,000 or higher baseline salary
3. Definitely need a degree for their field
4. Will not be frowned upon for having a degree from Phoenix
5. Have experience outside of college such as business, working, wiping chin
6. Are articulate and confident enough to sell themselves to prospective employers
7. Are already literate, for the love of Mike

There are so many people in the University of Phoenix who don't know what they're doing, how to explain themselves, how to structure an argument, how to engage is a ******* conversation, or how to do anything that's worth money to other people. These people shall or should drop out before they rack up another $30G of debt in their quest for identity.

I speak only from personal experience. For all I know, the above may apply to every farking degree in existence.
 
2012-12-31 01:51:38 PM  

TWX: Classical education used to help broaden the minds of those who graduated from it. Those people would go on to be civic leaders and their broadened worldview and knowledge outside of the provincial education they otherwise would have been limited by would help them to be better civic leaders, politicians, and yes, bureaucrats. We now elect those with lesser educations tailored toward understanding one's fellow man, which is evident in political discourse these days.


I'm all for LIberal Arts but your classical liberals arts education has been destroyed by group identity politics. I'm in New England and I see alot of these "prestigious" schools exactly like the article is talking about, places with 400 students that you never heard of, but cost 50 grand a year to go to. All they seem to produce is a bunch of whiny petulant children with dreadlocks and facial piercing screaming about teh patriarchy and white privilege. You might get a basic job in Human Resources with that, but I honestly don't see what else they can do with that education. They certainly weren't taught to have a broadened worldview of knowledge and I can't see them demonstrating to an employer their critical thinking skills, nor will they likely be able to in self employment. Career students is their only goal and hopefully they can become so entrenched they join the system teaching critical theory or joining the bookwriting/lecture circuit. It's a pyramid scheme with the top 10% flush with money while the bottom 90% are cluesless retards blowing their family wealth down the drain or selling their own futures to debt slavery.

Classical Liberal Arts is dead.
 
2012-12-31 01:51:43 PM  
The College Degree is a Product that was invented by the Fed following WWII to give the Fightin' Man something to do with all his free time. GI Bill paid for it and introduced this new thing to the Jobs Marketplace. Soon it became a ticket, a requirement for anything beyond labor employment. The Junior College was created to help those who couldn't get the whole thing. Sort of like the text-message phone for those who can't afford the iPhone (yeah, shiatty metaphor since the one came before the other), but still. It's a racket. Then it's a prestige thing, like cars or giant televisions or giant houses full of giant televisions. Big ol' college degree dick-measuring contest. You want this job? You must first buy this degree.

Big racket.

Unless you're learning a particular skill like chemistry, engineering, biology, or the maths, it is a waste of time for all but the idle rich. Once upon a time a classical education was a thing of value, but now with giant industrial-age colleges and universities, it's all Scantron tests and memorize the materials. Very little teaching of critical thought, only how to take the test.

Our society is constantly at the mercy of hucksters and charlatans. That so many rubes buy into the scams and drag the rest of us along with them hurts my head.
 
2012-12-31 01:51:57 PM  

TyrantII: Even engineering isn't safe in this global economy at this time. I know several that have been laid off and can not find jobs.


Depends on what kind of engineering. Mining, Chemical, Electrical, etc are all pretty solid. Those are things that can't easily be outsourced since they're effectively local. Computer Science is a different animal, but as long as venture capitalists and angel investors exist, so will jobs for CompSci majors.
 
2012-12-31 01:51:57 PM  

Great Janitor: I hear that quite a bit "I am just not a sales person." And in truth, people aren't sales people, they are just afraid of living on commission. They'd rather work 40 hours at $20/hour than work sales where you could earn what you would in a week at $20/hr just off of one sale that takes less than one day.


Some people do not have an aggressive enough personality to be an effective salesmen though. We hired a lot of brokers out of shipping school (they do trade schools in Germany rather than make everyone go to college, I was the only person at my old company with a degree in anything), and a lot simply did not have personalities conducive to being successful, even though they wanted to try their hand in the commission game.
 
2012-12-31 01:51:58 PM  

lilplatinum: /the 1 in 10,000 Engineer who actually has some modicum of social skills actually can make himself pretty farking valuable, however.


It's more like 1 in 25, in my working experience. ( still not very good). I've worked under Mechanical & Electrical Engineers, who, if you sent them as a diplomat to Russia or China, could easily trigger WWIII shortly after stepping off the plane...
 
2012-12-31 01:52:13 PM  
Well, it's sorta a drag working this side of the mall. All the action happens by the movie theater where "Rat" works. Yeah, he once borrowed his sister's car to take Stacey Hamilton to a German eatery and someone broke into the car and stole the stereo. It's an old story. From 1982, I think.

danglinglegs.files.wordpress.com
 
2012-12-31 01:54:27 PM  

AngryJailhouseFistfark: but now with giant industrial-age colleges and universities, it's all Scantron tests and memorize the materials. Very little teaching of critical thought, only how to take the test.


Strange, after my third semester or so when I was done with the bullshiat intro classes I never once filled out a scantron...
 
2012-12-31 01:55:12 PM  
letrole: What you actually did was compare your business environment and you professional behaviour to a period tv drama that's riddled with inaccuracies and anachronisms.

lilplatinum: And? The fact that it might not be an accurate representation of a certain industry at a certain place in a certain point in time means it can have no similarity to a mentality that exists in a different industry in a different place in a different point of time?
Gotcha.


Got me with what? A lunchtime revelry? A lame comparison that you might expect someone to make if they actually did have a desktop cluttered with nic-nacs that said things like "You don't have to be crazy to work here -- but it helps"?
 
2012-12-31 01:56:05 PM  

Son of Thunder: vudukungfu: If you are paying for an education and have internet access, you are doing it wrong.

Right. Because people with no education are aces at distinguishing between online presentation of intelligent consideration of important issues, and the ignorant blog-ramblings of a poopflinging derp-monkey.


I said "Paying FOR an education"
I did not say "Going with OUT an education"

Some things like reading comprehension skills, something something, you won't read beyond this.
 
2012-12-31 01:56:53 PM  
haha you're doing it wrong!

Me + technical college (few thousand at most) + part time evening classes at Ottawa University = $50k/yr job ;) & no student loans! heh!
 
2012-12-31 01:56:54 PM  

lilplatinum: This industry is still stuck in Mad Men mentality.


"Stuck"? I'd be open to making the switch.
 
2012-12-31 01:57:06 PM  
I hear that pimps are always hiring!

/UpGrayedd
 
2012-12-31 01:57:30 PM  

factoryconnection: The older I get, the more lucky I feel that my parents were ball-busters when it came to academics AND activities throughout school.


I missed this. My parents did not tell me, "If you get excellent grades and/or can do something well in high school, people will pay you to go to college." The harder you work in high school, the less you have to work to pay for college.

At least I was smart enough to go the community college route. Got my first two years done cheap, transferred most of my credits to my four year school, and got out with only a semester's worth of debt. Still had 20k or so of loans, but that's manageable.
 
2012-12-31 01:57:36 PM  

Ed_Severson: lennavan: Your period license is temporarily suspended.

Sorry, both styles are acceptable. Try leaving America once in a while.


Yes, the grammar nazi from Indiana clearly meant to use the British style rather than the US style.
 
2012-12-31 01:57:40 PM  
FTA : In ancient Greece, liberal arts were the subjects that men free from work were at leisure to pursue

As it should be today. Leave the liberal arts to those young adults who are among the financially secure.

/ havent read the thread, so I hope Im not repeating others.
 
2012-12-31 01:58:53 PM  
Look, when they said I needed to boost sales, I went back to my old liberal arts college days and figured, "well, if the golfers can't come in the store with thier cleats on, then well, I should just set up shop here on the golf course". Seems to be working. I already sold one Chai, 5 pumps, no water....


cdn.racerxonline.com
 
2012-12-31 02:00:08 PM  

LtDarkstar: haha you're doing it wrong!

Me + technical college (few thousand at most) + part time evening classes at Ottawa University = $50k/yr job ;) & no student loans! heh!


You clearly got what you paid for.
 
2012-12-31 02:00:45 PM  
I paid for about half of my tuition by working while I went to school. It was difficult, sure, but I survived.

The day I graduated, I got a job. My income jumped by 20k--about the same as my student loans. So my schooling paid for itself in about two years (took about four to pay it all off, but still pretty good.) Sure, I could have learned it all on the internet and maybe from a couple textbooks from Amazon, but I feel like that degree got me in some doors those early years. It didn't get me the job, not by a longshot. It got me called into an interview by a guy that only calls college graduates. Hey, you got to start somewhere. Since then, my experience and interview skills have landed every single job, but that degree got me started, so I look at it as an investment that paid off.

I enjoy writing fictions as much as I enjoy my job. I could have gone for the arts degree, but I'd be making much less. I'd still be unpublished. My house would be an apartment. My car would be broke down. And by bills would be unpaid.

The weird thing is: I still get to write on occasion. It too is a craft I can learn about on the internets. But I find art is much less about education than about personal experience, talent and dedication, so I wonder what exactly these liberal arts majors hope to learn in college. The history or art? Google it. The technique? YouTube it. Social connections? Facebook and twitter.

I don't think a BS science or engineering degree will ever do more than get you in the door--but if you're going to go to college, why choose arts?
 
2012-12-31 02:00:48 PM  

FitzShivering: lilplatinum: gja: lilplatinum: Is this the thread where the IT monkeys with their CS Degrees and crappy jobs go and mock people who have the types of degrees that their bosses do?

LULZ, no. This is the thread where uwe bona fide engineers with the real degrees mock you ALL for choosing a line of work that is so volatile as we continue to get ahead even as our bosses come and go with their oh-so-wonderful-but-useless MBA's.

Yes, Engineers are the only profession with job stability in the world and the only profession that makes any money.

/the 1 in 10,000 Engineer who actually has some modicum of social skills actually can make himself pretty farking valuable, however.

I've tended to find that most engineers have a modicum of social skills. I used to believe that old stereotype, but I just haven't seen it in the real world. It could have something to do with confirmation bias, though, as I tend to run completely unskilled people out of an interview, even if they're technically brilliant. But I'm in an industry and company where social skills are just as important as your talent level, and you'll crash projects if you can't play nice with people who you have every justifiable reason to want to run over with your car.


There were certainly more less-than-terrific social skills engies in school than there are in the workplace, but even then, maybe 5% tops. Always seemed like that perceived gap was due to differences in preferred socializing activities, "that guy didn't want to come to my Superbowl party; said something about tabletop gaming night. How unsociable!"
 
2012-12-31 02:01:08 PM  

lennavan: Yes, the grammar nazi from Indiana clearly meant to use the British style rather than the US style.


Sure did. I quite like the British rule for this. It's far more logical than its American counterpart.

Glad we cleared that up.
 
2012-12-31 02:01:47 PM  

ChuDogg: TWX: Classical education used to help broaden the minds of those who graduated from it. Those people would go on to be civic leaders and their broadened worldview and knowledge outside of the provincial education they otherwise would have been limited by would help them to be better civic leaders, politicians, and yes, bureaucrats. We now elect those with lesser educations tailored toward understanding one's fellow man, which is evident in political discourse these days.

I'm all for LIberal Arts but your classical liberals arts education has been destroyed by group identity politics. I'm in New England and I see alot of these "prestigious" schools exactly like the article is talking about, places with 400 students that you never heard of, but cost 50 grand a year to go to. All they seem to produce is a bunch of whiny petulant children with dreadlocks and facial piercing screaming about teh patriarchy and white privilege. You might get a basic job in Human Resources with that, but I honestly don't see what else they can do with that education. They certainly weren't taught to have a broadened worldview of knowledge and I can't see them demonstrating to an employer their critical thinking skills, nor will they likely be able to in self employment. Career students is their only goal and hopefully they can become so entrenched they join the system teaching critical theory or joining the bookwriting/lecture circuit. It's a pyramid scheme with the top 10% flush with money while the bottom 90% are cluesless retards blowing their family wealth down the drain or selling their own futures to debt slavery.

Classical Liberal Arts is dead.


www.globalnerdy.com
 
2012-12-31 02:01:58 PM  

ChuDogg: It's a pyramid scheme with the top 10% flush with money while the bottom 90% are cluesless retards blowing their family wealth down the drain or selling their own futures to debt slavery.


THAT right there. Most of our stuff is organized around that very thing: making us debt slaves. Banks can't sell as many mortgages as they want. People say, fark that, I'll rent. They lobby Congress to make the mortgage interest deductable, so now I have an incentive to say, save up that 10% down and get on board with the mortage. Sah-WEET! look at me, boys, I'm a homeowner. fark all y'all, I got equity.

Except you don't not for at least 10 years or so in a 30-year. And even then it's just pennies on the dollar until the interest is paid out, and by then you've probably already paid the purchase price and still have that much more to go. But we all have a big, veiny hard-on for that sweet mortgage interest deduction come April 15 every year, right?

Same with the health insurance. Can't get it on your own, at least not if you have a family. Sure, some low-risk 20-something can get it reasonable, but once you have dependents, forget it. You've got to go to work for someone who'll provide it. THEN you're at their mercy because you can't afford to lose the insurance. Bullshiat. And the insurance gomers keep their lobbyists in congress on the job to make DAMN sure it stays that way, too.

Keep us serfs toiling 45, 60, 75 years, feeding that Big Machine. Give us enough cheap, carb-rich foods and Sports Entertainments to keep us mollified, stupid, and toiling away.
 
2012-12-31 02:02:01 PM  
Starbuck's? Starbuck's what? Her Viper? What happened to it?

The entire "education" system in the U.S. is fundamentally broken, from kindergarten to grad school. It's going to take a serious upheaval to even come close to reforming it.

On a topic slightly related to the headline: I worked at a Starbucks for a while. Lax attendance policy, no drug testing, lots of free food and drink, nubile young baristas, decent tips...what do you mean it's not awesome?
 
2012-12-31 02:02:44 PM  
contentmarketingtoday.com

Liberal Arts? Gee I am not even sure what a liberal is. Is that anything like the Statue of Liberty? Now, Arts, I understand. I used to read Calvin and Hobbes.
 
2012-12-31 02:03:47 PM  

AsprinBurn: The weird thing is: I still get to write on occasion. It too is a craft I can learn about on the internets. But I find art is much less about education than about personal experience, talent and dedication, so I wonder what exactly these liberal arts majors hope to learn in college. The history or art? Google it. The technique? YouTube it. Social connections? Facebook and twitter.


What you're describing is the difference between knowledge and information.
 
2012-12-31 02:05:37 PM  

AngryJailhouseFistfark: Keep us serfs toiling 45, 60, 75 years, feeding that Big Machine. Give us enough cheap, carb-rich foods and Sports Entertainments to keep us mollified, stupid, and toiling away.


Somewhere, later tonight, patrons at a bar somewhere are going to hear all of this in person and start backing very slowly away from you ...
 
2012-12-31 02:05:54 PM  

towatchoverme: LtDarkstar: haha you're doing it wrong!

Me + technical college (few thousand at most) + part time evening classes at Ottawa University = $50k/yr job ;) & no student loans! heh!

You clearly got what you paid for.


It was a good deal and I make more money than most people that live in this area :) (Web designer)
 
2012-12-31 02:07:31 PM  

LtDarkstar: towatchoverme: LtDarkstar: haha you're doing it wrong!

Me + technical college (few thousand at most) + part time evening classes at Ottawa University = $50k/yr job ;) & no student loans! heh!

You clearly got what you paid for.

It was a good deal and I make more money than most people that live in this area :) (Web designer)


You're in the wrong area. :-) You still in Ottawa? Self-employed or with a firm?
 
2012-12-31 02:08:52 PM  

vudukungfu: Son of Thunder: vudukungfu: If you are paying for an education and have internet access, you are doing it wrong.

Right. Because people with no education are aces at distinguishing between online presentation of intelligent consideration of important issues, and the ignorant blog-ramblings of a poopflinging derp-monkey.

I said "Paying FOR an education"
I did not say "Going with OUT an education"

Some things like reading comprehension skills, something something, you won't read beyond this.


They didn't say without. Their [pretty bad] point was someone with minimal education lacks the abilities to obtain further education from online resources due to an inability to distinguish fact from opinion. Really though, a high school education should be sufficient for that. If it's not... well, it's not really college's job to fix that.
 
2012-12-31 02:09:48 PM  

SkunkWerks: Oh, it's this schtick again.

/Liberal Arts Major.
//Gainfully Employed


THIS. I have taught at a Liberal Arts college for close to twenty years and can attest that the grads find lucrative and fulfilling jobs in a wide array of careers because they are smart, can adapt, and think for themselves. My institution is doing a lot of this value-added stuff to attract new students, which of course leads to tuition increase. Bigger schools are cheaper (subsidized by taxes), but maybe education isn't an area where we should apply economies of scale.

My two cents.
 
gja
2012-12-31 02:10:08 PM  

lilplatinum: gja: lilplatinum: Is this the thread where the IT monkeys with their CS Degrees and crappy jobs go and mock people who have the types of degrees that their bosses do?

LULZ, no. This is the thread where uwe bona fide engineers with the real degrees mock you ALL for choosing a line of work that is so volatile as we continue to get ahead even as our bosses come and go with their oh-so-wonderful-but-useless MBA's.

Yes, Engineers are the only profession with job stability in the world and the only profession that makes any money.

/the 1 in 10,000 Engineer who actually has some modicum of social skills actually can make himself pretty farking valuable, however.


/humor, please activate your sense, that is all...........
 
2012-12-31 02:11:09 PM  
The cost of books is outrageous. I get a tuition waiver in exchange for teaching/research thankfully so Im not getting any more student lons. But this is the first time I'm at a school who uses Barnes and Noble as their bookseller. I have never seen more overpriced books in my life. If I went with the school for my books this term, it would total $800 for 2 grad and 1 undergrad class. I had a few of the books already and only purchased books for the undergrad class......managed to skate for $320 using Amazon but that's for one class.

These better be the best programming books ever.
 
2012-12-31 02:11:12 PM  

gja: lilplatinum: gja: lilplatinum: Is this the thread where the IT monkeys with their CS Degrees and crappy jobs go and mock people who have the types of degrees that their bosses do?

LULZ, no. This is the thread where uwe bona fide engineers with the real degrees mock you ALL for choosing a line of work that is so volatile as we continue to get ahead even as our bosses come and go with their oh-so-wonderful-but-useless MBA's.

Yes, Engineers are the only profession with job stability in the world and the only profession that makes any money.

/the 1 in 10,000 Engineer who actually has some modicum of social skills actually can make himself pretty farking valuable, however.

/humor, please activate your sense, that is all...........


Sorry I live with an Engineer, and she is German - that sense has long since withered and died.
 
2012-12-31 02:11:14 PM  

vudukungfu: Son of Thunder: vudukungfu: If you are paying for an education and have internet access, you are doing it wrong.

Right. Because people with no education are aces at distinguishing between online presentation of intelligent consideration of important issues, and the ignorant blog-ramblings of a poopflinging derp-monkey.

I said "Paying FOR an education"
I did not say "Going with OUT an education"

Some things like reading comprehension skills, something something, you won't read beyond this.


TANSTAAFL. The closest thing to a free education is getting someone else to pay for your education. And that is something I heartily endorse. I frequently tell my (psychology) students about the merits of signing on to be a military shrink for a few years in exchange for a "free" degree

And if that is the case, then your point about having Internet access becomes meaningless.
 
2012-12-31 02:12:19 PM  

letrole: lilplatinum: Hey fix my computer, monkey, I have to go get loaded at lunch because I can.

You get loaded at lunch because you never deal with clients or make decisions. You can get away with such behavior if you're a passenger, or a bimbo. because you are unemployed.


FTFY
 
2012-12-31 02:13:21 PM  

ongbok: letrole: lilplatinum: Hey fix my computer, monkey, I have to go get loaded at lunch because I can.

You get loaded at lunch because you never deal with clients or make decisions. You can get away with such behavior if you're a passenger, or a bimbo. because you are unemployed.

FTFY


God I wish, Socialist countries have great unemployment benefits.
 
2012-12-31 02:15:12 PM  
.

Son of Thunder: I frequently tell my (psychology) students about the merits of signing on to be a military shrink for a few years in exchange for a "free" degree


Certainly explains the high rate of suicide amongst our troops
 
2012-12-31 02:15:12 PM  

Coastalgrl: The cost of books is outrageous. I get a tuition waiver in exchange for teaching/research thankfully so Im not getting any more student lons. But this is the first time I'm at a school who uses Barnes and Noble as their bookseller. I have never seen more overpriced books in my life. If I went with the school for my books this term, it would total $800 for 2 grad and 1 undergrad class. I had a few of the books already and only purchased books for the undergrad class......managed to skate for $320 using Amazon but that's for one class.

These better be the best programming books ever.


They were not. You only need the one book and it's like $45. $20 if you can convince an old UNIX guy to part with one of his copies.

cm.bell-labs.com
/fark textbook publishers
 
2012-12-31 02:15:39 PM  

Jim.Casy: The All-Powerful Atheismo: Engineering degree, $0 of debt.

Eat it.

History and Philosophy degree, $0 of debt. Gainfully and happily employed.

Did you have a point?


Amen. B.A., M.A., and Ph.D. with no debt. It's called hard work for scholarships.
 
2012-12-31 02:15:40 PM  

Ed_Severson: lennavan: Yes, the grammar nazi from Indiana clearly meant to use the British style rather than the US style.

Sure did. I quite like the British rule for this. It's far more logical than its American counterpart.

Glad we cleared that up.


I'd swear your previous two posts are like word-for-word straight off what I saw in a google search for it.
 
2012-12-31 02:20:03 PM  

towatchoverme:

[www.globalnerdy.com image 400x300]



AngryJailhouseFistfark: THAT right there. Most of our stuff is organized around that very thing: making us debt slaves. Banks can't sell as many mortgages as they want. People say, fark that, I'll rent. They lobby Congress to make the mortgage interest deductable, so now I have an incentive to say, save up that 10% down and get on board with the mortage. Sah-WEET! look at me, boys, I'm a homeowner. fark all y'all, I got equity.


Honestly I'm not ranting about college in general, just these small liberal arts colleges. These people aren't even chasing after a job or lifestyle, "they're above all that shiat". They produce nothing of value I can see whatsoever. Almost every single person I know who went down that route is bankrupt in six figure debt. I know somebody with a PHD in African Studies, never been to africa, and now works retail at the mall. It's the same story with them over and over. If they are lucky they can get a job at a non-profit. Often they will work for free, and be told they are lucky to working with no salary by bloated administrators (earning six or seven figures them self). Usually they finally get burnt out and "sell out," peddling their resume to their friends who went to State Colleges for business, engineering, or even liberal arts and now have corporate jobs. But honestly I don't blame employers who run from these resumes and they wind up at the mall or at Starbucks.

There was a time when the children of the elite went to these small colleges to develop them self as a man, make financial connections, and develop a worldly nuanced outlook. Those days are over. They are intellectually decrepit hangouts of groupthink educators who know of no moral or fiscal sense of responsibility to their students. Unless you are an underprivileged minority taking advantage of one of the plethora of free scholarships being handed out, anybody sending their children to these schools should have their head examined. The lottery would be a better ROI.
 
2012-12-31 02:21:18 PM  

lilplatinum: gja: lilplatinum: gja: lilplatinum: Is this the thread where the IT monkeys with their CS Degrees and crappy jobs go and mock people who have the types of degrees that their bosses do?

LULZ, no. This is the thread where uwe bona fide engineers with the real degrees mock you ALL for choosing a line of work that is so volatile as we continue to get ahead even as our bosses come and go with their oh-so-wonderful-but-useless MBA's.

Yes, Engineers are the only profession with job stability in the world and the only profession that makes any money.

/the 1 in 10,000 Engineer who actually has some modicum of social skills actually can make himself pretty farking valuable, however.

/humor, please activate your sense, that is all...........

Sorry I live with an Engineer, and she is German - that sense has long since withered and died.


Ordnung muss sein.
 
2012-12-31 02:22:36 PM  

The All-Powerful Atheismo: Engineering degree, $0 of debt.

Eat it.


I did a 3-2 engineering program at a small liberal arts college (Knox). I earned a physics degree and am now about a semester away from a mechanical engineering degree at the University of Kansas. I have to say, I learned a ton more at Knox about the world than at KU, and am a more well rounded person from it. Also, the people were more interesting and the parties were awesome.

Also, no debt. Eat it.
 
2012-12-31 02:23:44 PM  
not to worry, the great news is Obama was talking about getting school tuition under control before his first election (Video) the great news is they took about 300 pictures while he spoke with them.

www.lakevoicenews.org
 
2012-12-31 02:24:14 PM  
Man, this is getting a lot of airplay today:

Students are still deluded by the premise that a degree in anything is a direct pathway to fame and wealth. When are kids going to learn that there is a connection between education and gainful employment? Gone are the days when people went to college to gain a meaningful philosophy of life. We don't see hundreds of thousands of people going into buggy whip manufacturing, do we? I work in higher ed, and I can tell with you with absolute certainty that a liberal arts degree today puts you a half-step ahead of a high school dropout. Our "liberal studies" majors get degrees in indecision and have nearly zero job prospects upon graduation.
 
2012-12-31 02:24:37 PM  

ProfessorOhki: Coastalgrl: The cost of books is outrageous. I get a tuition waiver in exchange for teaching/research thankfully so Im not getting any more student lons. But this is the first time I'm at a school who uses Barnes and Noble as their bookseller. I have never seen more overpriced books in my life. If I went with the school for my books this term, it would total $800 for 2 grad and 1 undergrad class. I had a few of the books already and only purchased books for the undergrad class......managed to skate for $320 using Amazon but that's for one class.

These better be the best programming books ever.

They were not. You only need the one book and it's like $45. $20 if you can convince an old UNIX guy to part with one of his copies.


/fark textbook publishers


I'm going to check with the professor and make sure that all three are required. I took a course last term that 2 out of 3 were never used and crappy book IMHO.

Thanks for the reccomendation. Went back to school to learn programming correctly rather than people who thought they knew. Taking C++ and FORTRAN. among other things.
 
2012-12-31 02:25:23 PM  
Bah. This was supposed to be interspersed in my rant...

s2.postimage.org
 
2012-12-31 02:28:19 PM  
fields that require advanced degrees (masters or higher) and have massive gluts of graduates:

Accounting
Biomedical Research
Chemistry
Psychology
Law
Quantitative Finance
Pharmacists

but sure, laugh at the liberal arts majors.
 
2012-12-31 02:28:25 PM  

towatchoverme: LtDarkstar: towatchoverme: LtDarkstar: haha you're doing it wrong!

Me + technical college (few thousand at most) + part time evening classes at Ottawa University = $50k/yr job ;) & no student loans! heh!

You clearly got what you paid for.

It was a good deal and I make more money than most people that live in this area :) (Web designer)

You're in the wrong area. :-) You still in Ottawa? Self-employed or with a firm?


It's not about the money, it's about the relative purchasing power. Sounds like he's in the right area if he's happy and makes over the median. That's all that really matters.
 
2012-12-31 02:28:48 PM  

Wangiss: lilplatinum: gja: lilplatinum: gja: lilplatinum: Is this the thread where the IT monkeys with their CS Degrees and crappy jobs go and mock people who have the types of degrees that their bosses do?

LULZ, no. This is the thread where uwe bona fide engineers with the real degrees mock you ALL for choosing a line of work that is so volatile as we continue to get ahead even as our bosses come and go with their oh-so-wonderful-but-useless MBA's.

Yes, Engineers are the only profession with job stability in the world and the only profession that makes any money.

/the 1 in 10,000 Engineer who actually has some modicum of social skills actually can make himself pretty farking valuable, however.

/humor, please activate your sense, that is all...........

Sorry I live with an Engineer, and she is German - that sense has long since withered and died.

Ordnung muss sein.


Kein Scheiss!
 
2012-12-31 02:29:54 PM  

SkunkWerks: Oh, it's this schtick again.

/Liberal Arts Major.
//Gainfully Employed


This.

///have had a great career so far
 
2012-12-31 02:32:22 PM  

lennavan: I'd swear your previous two posts are like word-for-word straight off what I saw in a google search for it.


Swear whatever you'd like. I've been employing the British convention for years, which you'd readily see for yourself by reading any of my previous posts anywhere I've quoted someone.

Not that it matters, of course. Subby richly deserves criticism for being completely incapable of using an apostrophe appropriately, which for some reason prompted you to start hounding me about a widely accepted stylistic choice. Zing, indeed. Good one! You win all the arguments on the internet.
 
2012-12-31 02:32:30 PM  

Treygreen13: Who spends 150k on an education that doesn't end with medical school or the bar exam?


Everyone, since we decided in the mid-80's that ALL CHILDREN SHOULD GO TO COLLEGE!!! and prices went up accordingly.
 
2012-12-31 02:32:39 PM  
lilplatinum
Ordnung muss sein.

Kein Scheiss!

That was tremendously edifying. Thank you, good sir.
 
2012-12-31 02:33:03 PM  
Oh, a masturbatory engineering degree thread. We haven't had one of those since earlier this morning.
 
2012-12-31 02:33:36 PM  

Ed_Severson: Not that it matters, of course. Subby richly deserves criticism for being completely incapable of using an apostrophe appropriately, which for some reason prompted you to start hounding me about a widely accepted stylistic choice.


I just enjoyed the irony dude.
 
2012-12-31 02:34:05 PM  
My wife has a degree in Radio-Television-Film. She has never used it ever - her first job out of college was as an accounts-receivable clerk, and now she's a stay-at-home mom. She went to college only because "she was supposed to". She didn't need to do so; she has never held a job that requires a degree, nor has she ever wanted a job that would require one.

The problem is that there's this concept that "everyone needs to go to college" that is simply not true. Not everyone needs a college degree. I've known tons of people who go to college and major in one of the softer fields like Communications only to come out and just take the first job that came their way, only now with more debt. You shouldn't go to college unless you have career plans that require it, or you are really passionate about some field of knowledge (in which case you should be prepared to either go all the way through your doctorate or be prepared to not work in that field and get the degree only for its own sake). Going to college for a degree in Art History not because you're interested in Art History but because you just "have to have a degree" is wasteful.

Trade schools need to have their stigma removed, as well. They (trade schools) also need to stop pretending to be real universities; they're not, and there's no shame in it.
 
2012-12-31 02:34:49 PM  

bhcompy: It's not about the money, it's about the relative purchasing power. Sounds like he's in the right area if he's happy and makes over the median. That's all that really matters.


The Secret of Life is entering a moderately high-earning field where you can telecommute from a low-cost area.

Seriously.
 
2012-12-31 02:35:16 PM  

letrole: lilplatinum:
Is this the thread where the IT monkeys with their CS Degrees and crappy jobs go and mock people who have the types of degrees that their bosses do?


No. This is the thread where those with liberal arts degrees make half-hearted attempts to justify taking the long way round to an exciting career of part-time clerical work.


No, this is the thread where letrole is the best MMO.
 
2012-12-31 02:35:52 PM  
It's really a shame, because a liberal arts degree is how you get educated, while a business degree is how you get trained.
 
2012-12-31 02:36:35 PM  

freewill: bhcompy: It's not about the money, it's about the relative purchasing power. Sounds like he's in the right area if he's happy and makes over the median. That's all that really matters.

The Secret of Life is entering a moderately high-earning field where you can telecommute from a low-cost area.

Seriously.


As someone who has done this since 2007, yes, I agree.

Gyrfalcon: Treygreen13: Who spends 150k on an education that doesn't end with medical school or the bar exam?

Everyone, since we decided in the mid-80's that ALL CHILDREN SHOULD GO TO COLLEGE!!! and prices went up accordingly.


Err, actually, prices have been going at the double the rate of national inflation rate basically since they started tracking the numbers(if I recall the data I saw started tracking in the 60s)
 
2012-12-31 02:37:18 PM  
At an old job I noticed that the HR department got final approval on all budgets. The IT department was shafted every time. One year the approved budget for the IT Christmas party was $500 and the HR Christmas party was $18,000. I asked "Is HR full of liberal art majors who spent college constantly being told that they were getting useless degrees compared to Computer Science majors and now are punishing the IT department as some sort of personal vendetta?"

Left that job with an exist interview survey asking how more of them weren't in prison.
 
2012-12-31 02:38:13 PM  

Gyrfalcon: Treygreen13: Who spends 150k on an education that doesn't end with medical school or the bar exam?

Everyone, since we decided in the mid-80's that ALL CHILDREN SHOULD GO TO COLLEGE!!! and prices went up accordingly.


Exactly.

In 2003, there were hardly any students who wanted to go to the University of California. They had lots of empty seats, so tuition was low. But then by 2012, since all children should go to college, tuition went up 4X because now there was an increased demand for education. So you see, tuitions at non-profit universities are a function of supply/demand*.

*please don't look at any other factors such as declining tax support from the government.
 
2012-12-31 02:38:22 PM  

Lord Dimwit: You shouldn't go to college unless you have career plans that require it, or you are really passionate about some field of knowledge (in which case you should be prepared to either go all the way through your doctorate or be prepared to not work in that field and get the degree only for its own sake). Going to college for a degree in Art History not because you're interested in Art History but because you just "have to have a degree" is wasteful.


What should be and what is are two different things. I like how in Germany trade school encompasses many white collar jobs and has no stigma, thus only people who actually should be in Uni go to Uni and it is pretty much free since it isn't ridiculously overcrowded.

But in the US you kind of do have to have a degree (yes, there are some anecdotes of people who were highly successful without them, but they are not the norm). Hell, I have an undergrad in poli-sci/philosophy and a masters in comparative politics - neither of which has fark all to do with my career. However, had I not gotten a degree it would have been a big impediment to getting a residency/work permit to begin with since its just expected of Americans.

So yeah, what *should be* and what are are two different things.
 
2012-12-31 02:39:14 PM  

Great Janitor: At an old job I noticed that the HR department got final approval on all budgets. The IT department was shafted every time. One year the approved budget for the IT Christmas party was $500 and the HR Christmas party was $18,000. I asked "Is HR full of liberal art majors who spent college constantly being told that they were getting useless degrees compared to Computer Science majors and now are punishing the IT department as some sort of personal vendetta?"

Left that job with an exist interview survey asking how more of them weren't in prison.


My previous post has just been reinforced.
 
2012-12-31 02:42:20 PM  

lennavan: Gyrfalcon: Treygreen13: Who spends 150k on an education that doesn't end with medical school or the bar exam?

Everyone, since we decided in the mid-80's that ALL CHILDREN SHOULD GO TO COLLEGE!!! and prices went up accordingly.

Exactly.

In 2003, there were hardly any students who wanted to go to the University of California. They had lots of empty seats, so tuition was low. But then by 2012, since all children should go to college, tuition went up 4X because now there was an increased demand for education. So you see, tuitions at non-profit universities are a function of supply/demand*.

*please don't look at any other factors such as declining tax support from the government.


Tuition wasn't low because there was no demand, tuition was low because the state charter for the UC, CSU, and CC system states that state residents shall be educated for free. That became unfeasible as the state went in to the red permanently, so "tuition" (labeled as fees) has increased accordingly. It's a gradual thing.
 
2012-12-31 02:43:47 PM  
No degree and love my job, pulling in close to six figures every year and coukd break that barrier easily if I wanted to work more OT like some of my crazy coworkers but choose not to.

Granted a degree does help get a persons feet in the door, either that or go the route I went and spend some time in the military.

Now a degree would help me out if I ever wanted to retire at an executive pay rate but honestly I'm opposed to the whole retiring at full pay on the tax payers dime thingy.
 
2012-12-31 02:45:32 PM  
Look, I don't know about the rest of you, but I went to college to go to college, not to actualize and incentivize my marketability in a fluid economy, and I'm bone-weary of the idea that college is some sort of farm league for businesses.

And just to drag the entire bag of smug into the room and leave it in the middle of the floor for everyone to see, while my parents did light the fuse, I had a full-time job long before I graduated and was paying for it as I went. Did I do well this year? Then I can take twelve credit hours instead of nine. Did I do poorly? Then I'll have to cut back to six. When I did graduate, a number of my co-workers asked, "So what are you going to do now?" I looked around the office and said, "Well, this."

I get that in a crappy economy, you're going to want to further your marketability rather than perpetuating Western Civilization for the next generation. But when you and 2.2 million of your closest friends decide that IT is the place to be, you're going to graduate into an oversaturated market replete with constantly-changing technology that will require frequent upgrades to your already expensive education to keep pace, and there's a shiny-faced graduate ten years younger than you who's just as qualified and will work for cheaper. I may have an English degree, but I never have to worry about changes in English technology or acquiring new qualifications in English sciences to ensure my English marketability. I didn't have to take an unpaid English internship to marginally improve my chances of getting a job in English when I graduated.

I also disagree that you should have your entire life etched in stone by the time you hit seventeen. My Dad was fifty when he went for a change of career and he was very, very good in his new field. It was his FIFTH career, after very little overlap in the previous four, and not counting flipping houses. His degree? ENGLISH.

I'm not saying Liberal Arts are for everyone, just that they're not an automatic ticket to a life of asking people if they want fries with that. The trouble is that Liberal Arts majors don't make good little corporate drones. So there's been this huge top-down push to transform universities from seats of learning to employee mills. If they can devalue that English degree, they can put a stop to this silly "social mobility" thing once and for all.
 
2012-12-31 02:48:15 PM  

lilplatinum: Is this the thread where the IT monkeys with their CS Degrees and crappy jobs go and mock people who have the types of degrees that their bosses do?


I get loaded at lunch on a pretty regular basis.

/ CS degree
// research scientist working on really, really cool stuff in graph theory and complexity theory
 
2012-12-31 02:48:37 PM  

bhcompy: Tuition wasn't low because there was no demand


Yes, exactly. The University of California definitely has lots of trouble filling its seats. Lots of Universities have this problem, it's not just a California thing.* Tuitions are rising all across the United States and it has nothing to do with state budgets cutting support to the Universities who are then forced to pass it on to the students. It's about supply and demand. If you look now versus a decade ago, the difference in enrollment is staggering.*

Think about it, do you know of anyone who has ever been turned down to a University? Hell have you ever even heard of or read about someone being turned down? No, of course not.** There are all sorts of empty seats.

*please dont look at any actual stats or facts that are easily available on the internet
** also please do not use your brain
 
gja
2012-12-31 02:48:49 PM  

Great Janitor: At an old job I noticed that the HR department got final approval on all budgets. The IT department was shafted every time. One year the approved budget for the IT Christmas party was $500 and the HR Christmas party was $18,000. I asked "Is HR full of liberal art majors who spent college constantly being told that they were getting useless degrees compared to Computer Science majors and now are punishing the IT department as some sort of personal vendetta?"

Left that job with an exist interview survey asking how more of them weren't in prison.


That's not the wisest way to approach such a situation, friend.
encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com
 
gja
2012-12-31 02:50:27 PM  

dropdfun: No degree and love my job, pulling in close to six figures every year and coukd break that barrier easily if I wanted to work more OT like some of my crazy coworkers but choose not to.

Granted a degree does help get a persons feet in the door, either that or go the route I went and spend some time in the military.

Now a degree would help me out if I ever wanted to retire at an executive pay rate but honestly I'm opposed to the whole retiring at full pay on the tax payers dime thingy.


You have far too many scruples.
 
2012-12-31 02:56:25 PM  

TyrantII: lilplatinum: gja: lilplatinum: Is this the thread where the IT monkeys with their CS Degrees and crappy jobs go and mock people who have the types of degrees that their bosses do?

LULZ, no. This is the thread where uwe bona fide engineers with the real degrees mock you ALL for choosing a line of work that is so volatile as we continue to get ahead even as our bosses come and go with their oh-so-wonderful-but-useless MBA's.

Yes, Engineers are the only profession with job stability in the world and the only profession that makes any money.

/the 1 in 10,000 Engineer who actually has some modicum of social skills actually can make himself pretty farking valuable, however.

Even engineering isn't safe in this global economy at this time. I know several that have been laid off and can not find jobs.


Having grown up in Houston in the 80's, I know that petroleum engineers were in very low demand at that time. My Dad, a civil engineer, had a close call in the early 90's. I imagine anyone with a nuclear engineering degree (without Navy experience) saw the same ebb and flow in demand as public opinion on nuclear energy waxes andchoice wanes.

I still think engineering is a great choice for those with the aptitude though.
 
2012-12-31 02:57:12 PM  
Hooray! My alma mater (Adrian College) gets itself some visibility on both Huff Post and the Yahoo main page. Why do I not feel any better about myself?

Oh yeah, cause its my alma mater and I have a theatre degree from it.

/look at me, I even spell it theatre and not theater. Aren't I special.
 
2012-12-31 02:58:20 PM  

TWX: Blame the lack of value as perceived by the public at large coupled with the rise of "business school".

Classical education used to help broaden the minds of those who graduated from it. Those people would go on to be civic leaders and their broadened worldview and knowledge outside of the provincial education they otherwise would have been limited by would help them to be better civic leaders, politicians, and yes, bureaucrats. We now elect those with lesser educations tailored toward understanding one's fellow man, which is evident in political discourse these days.

I see business school as primarily a way to give degrees to people who abhor the concept of the classical liberal arts education that used to produce industry management and businessmen. Those business school graduates often think they know what's best for everyone even though they really don't have much experience with other facets of life and really don't know how others live or how to really make improvements, as their education was too narrow, too tailored.

People like to claim that Bachelor of Science degrees don't prepare graduates with a well-enough-rounded education, but that seems to be a much wider problem.


I'm all for a classical education, but schools charging 30k+ a year for it is ridiculous, it's growing at a rate much higher than inflation. Why? Simple Economics.

Anyone can get a loan guaranteed by government and cannot be discharged in bankruptcy. The banks ate this up because it's a virtually risk free investment, and it funneled unending money into colleges, causing inflation.

Why did it take this long for people to realize that it was a massive bubble? Like the housing market, the college market sells a "Leave it to Beaver" like dream. A dream of prosperity and success, a ticket to the upper-middle class. It's makes people behave irrationally.

"Don't worry, just take out loans and you'll get a good job to pay them back" was the mantra repeated constantly when I was in high school about 10 years ago. I'm very lucky that I had parents that made me do the math on loan re-payments to see the traditional college experience was an expensive suckers' game.

I still went to college, but my first 2 years were at a community college to cut down the expense and did my best to pay it myself. I ended up taking out some student loans (25k) total for the last year of university and my MBA, even with some small scholarships.

I can't tell you how many friends I have with close to 100k student loans for a bachelors.

TL;DR version: Classical education is important, charging 30k+ a year for the privilege is the issue.

/Classical education should be taught in public school
//FYI, colleges are not "the paper chase" anymore
 
2012-12-31 03:02:35 PM  

shortymac: I'm all for a classical education, but schools charging 30k+ a year for it is ridiculous, it's growing at a rate much higher than inflation. Why? Simple Economics.


shortymac: I'm all for a classical education, but schools charging 30k+ a year for it is ridiculous, it's growing at a rate much higher than inflation. Why? Simple Economics.


Economics has nothing to do with it. It's simple math.

2000
Cost to run State University: $10 million
Tax Dollars from State government: $5 million
Students at University: 1,000
Tuition: $5 million / 1,000 = $5,000 per student.

2010
Cost to run State University: $10 million
Tax Dollars from State government: $0
Students at University: 1,000
Tuition: $10 million / 1,000 = $10,000 per student.

OH MY GOD WHY DID TUITION DOUBLE?!?!?!?1
 
2012-12-31 03:02:56 PM  

peasandcarrots: Look, I don't know about the rest of you, but I went to college to go to college, not to actualize and incentivize my marketability in a fluid economy, and I'm bone-weary of the idea that college is some sort of farm league for businesses.


Well, I like computers so both those happened to align nicely. "Incentivize my marketability?" I thought you said you had a degree in English :)

peasandcarrots: I get that in a crappy economy, you're going to want to further your marketability rather than perpetuating Western Civilization for the next generation. But when you and 2.2 million of your closest friends decide that IT is the place to be, you're going to graduate into an oversaturated market replete with constantly-changing technology that will require frequent upgrades to your already expensive education to keep pace, and there's a shiny-faced graduate ten years younger than you who's just as qualified and will work for cheaper. I may have an English degree, but I never have to worry about changes in English technology or acquiring new qualifications in English sciences to ensure my English marketability.


Where does this idea come from anyway? The technology itself isn't that important; there are skills that you acquire and refine that are behind the technologies. The idea that the fresh-faced graduate has the same skill level is as ridiculous as me saying that a fresh-faced writer can replace you because he took a class on the new thing- ePublishing, so your skills and experience are obsolete. Now, admittedly, I'm not an IT guy, but I bet you obtaining a certification for a specific brand of equipment is a lot easier when you've got 10 years of TCP/IP background than it is when you're first being introduced to networking. Besides, experience is generally seen as a qualification. The scenario you posit is ridiculous on the face of it.
 
2012-12-31 03:08:45 PM  

lennavan: bhcompy: Tuition wasn't low because there was no demand

Yes, exactly. The University of California definitely has lots of trouble filling its seats. Lots of Universities have this problem, it's not just a California thing.* Tuitions are rising all across the United States and it has nothing to do with state budgets cutting support to the Universities who are then forced to pass it on to the students. It's about supply and demand. If you look now versus a decade ago, the difference in enrollment is staggering.*

Think about it, do you know of anyone who has ever been turned down to a University? Hell have you ever even heard of or read about someone being turned down? No, of course not.** There are all sorts of empty seats.

*please dont look at any actual stats or facts that are easily available on the internet
** also please do not use your brain


Don't be so dumb. The difference in enrollment IS staggering, and it is at the big universities too. The ENROLLMENT hasn't changed; what has changed is the application rate. When I applied to UCLA in 1981, you could get accepted to just about any program you applied to, with the exception of Engineering and Medicine. Those were already "impacted" even in the early 80's. Every other program was wide open, assuming you made the other requirements. 20 years later, even obscure programs like Music Appreciation were impacted, and requirements had gotten a lot tighter: GPAs had gone up, SATs had gone up, entrance essays were required for nearly everyone. I was the last group to transfer in with a GPA below a 3.0 (in 1982); a year later I never would have gotten in. So when they say "demand wasn't there", they don't mean "nobody was applying", they mean that the number of people trying to get in was still what the University could handle. Prices were low because there were only a few thousand people competing for a few thousand seats.

Today, there are tens of thousands of people competing for the same few thousand seats. Raising the requirements hasn't slowed the application rate, so the next thing was to raise the prices. The same thing is true at community colleges. In 1980, I took classes at community college for $9 a unit, and I never once encountered a closed class. Today they start at ten times as much, and they're closed all the time because they fill up so quick. It IS, in fact, about supply and demand. There are only so many rooms on campus, and only so many seats per room; there are only so many teaching hours per day. One way to control inflow of students is to raise prices. Are you imagining that if only there was sufficient money somehow there would be adequate space and sufficient teachers to go around? Even a big campus like UCLA has finite resources.

Oh, and for the record, I've heard of people being turned down by universities all the time. Two in my own family.
 
2012-12-31 03:12:39 PM  

peasandcarrots: Look, I don't know about the rest of you, but I went to college to go to college, not to actualize and incentivize my marketability in a fluid economy, and I'm bone-weary of the idea that college is some sort of farm league for businesses.


While I agree with most of what you wrote and paid my own way through school with my own existing career, too, it may not be a farm league for businesses, but it's certainly training for your life, you're there because there are things you don't know and want to know in order to get through this thing, and let's face it: for most people, about half of life, if not more than half of life, is going to be work.

That may be business, it may be government, it may be education, it may be charity, whatever, but that's what we're doing, and whether we like it or not, with the exception of the very few people who actually know us and love us, that's what we are: our work and what it means for them. If you're not going to college to make yourself better at what you do, I think you're missing out.

As for the English degree, you might be right that IT, Engineering, and Computer Science require a lifetime of learning to stay current (the unbridled horror, right?), but I should point out that degree inflation in the liberal arts is rapidly becoming so severe that you need a PhD to get an interview at a decent community college and yes, the qualifications seemingly can change. The g/f, a Philosophy professor, was recently shot down as a finalist candidate because of a new emphasis on "environmental philosophy" and her lack of background in it. I'm sure there are equivalent issues in English, especially when you consider that the university in the region has basically quit teaching it, on the utterly false assumption that their students should already be up to snuff and can develop their writing skills in "writing-emphasis" courses from other disciplines.

/ English is a legit field. Don't let anybody tell you otherwise. Comparative Literature, it's English for people who can't hack English.
 
2012-12-31 03:14:14 PM  

grimlock1972: Not surprised the entire collegiate system in the US needs an overhaul to cut waste and bring down the cost of tuition and books, the prices for those are just plain unacceptable.

At the very least make all student loan debt dis-chargeable in bankruptcy after 10 years post college.


Then no one will loan you the money without collateral.
 
2012-12-31 03:15:22 PM  

monoski: Imagine when they find out they can take that $150k and start up their own venture (maybe even a Bucks franchise) skip the 4 years of drinking and whoring and get right down the business of working for a living...


Yes, because I'm sure a teenager right out of high school with no experience will be able to get a $150K loan.
 
2012-12-31 03:21:51 PM  

gja: Great Janitor: At an old job I noticed that the HR department got final approval on all budgets. The IT department was shafted every time. One year the approved budget for the IT Christmas party was $500 and the HR Christmas party was $18,000. I asked "Is HR full of liberal art majors who spent college constantly being told that they were getting useless degrees compared to Computer Science majors and now are punishing the IT department as some sort of personal vendetta?"

Left that job with an exist interview survey asking how more of them weren't in prison.

That's not the wisest way to approach such a situation, friend.
[encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com image 289x174]


I was in accounting. The rules that they had in place, that HR drafted for the entire company to follow was if an employee who isn't in HR or a VP or higher spends money and expenses it out for a refund, a receipt and business purpose must be given. If it is a VP, business purpose and receipt if over $100. If HR, nothing is needed. For over night travel, most employees were limited to $75 a night per hotel room and a dinner of $30, receipts needed, only one alcoholic drink allowed. For HR, just accept what is expensed out, and don't question anything. I saw some of hour HR people stay in $700/night hotel suites. Some even had family members (which was against the company policy, unless HR states otherwise). When it came to supplies, most departments got everything second hand and refurbished, including IT. HR got everything brand new and top of the line. The only department that never had to lay people off or go onto a hiring freeze was HR. The top paid people in the company, outside the VPs, were HR people. When I left, HR was the company that had to approve promotions, pay raises and transfers of staff from one department to the next. So each year when it came time for that annual review, your boss could say that you deserve a 3% pay raise, your boss's boss could agree, and HR could say "No, 1.5%" and not even have to justify it.

I had a theory that HR was using the expense reporting account to buy stuff, get the company to reimburse them for it, and then keep it and/or sell it else where. Which is why I asked why they weren't in prison. Several of us had emails that we had drafted at home on our personal computers for to be sent to places in both the state and federal government, naming names, dates and questionable events. The number of people on my list from HR was amazing. The amount of money that the HR department spent on itself was unreal, and when the very first department forced to make cut backs were the IT department, it really made people start to wonder what was going on. Especially when they purposely expanded into the IT department forcing layoffs in that department and refusing to let them expand or move anywhere.
 
2012-12-31 03:25:39 PM  
College is not for everybody and is not necessary for many things, especially at the cost of going into such overwhelming debt. You can laways learn things without college.
 
2012-12-31 03:28:48 PM  

Gyrfalcon: Don't be so dumb. The difference in enrollment IS staggering, and it is at the big universities too. The ENROLLMENT hasn't changed; what has changed is the application rate.


So the number of paying students is the same but the number of people applying has changed, therefore that drives tuition prices at a non-profit University? Goddamn you're stupid.

Gyrfalcon: 20 years later, even obscure programs like Music Appreciation were impacted, and requirements had gotten a lot tighter: GPAs had gone up, SATs had gone up, entrance essays were required for nearly everyone. I was the last group to transfer in with a GPA below a 3.0 (in 1982); a year later I never would have gotten in.


BECAUSE THE NUMBER APPLICATIONS WENT UP. You see, Universities have X slots to fill every year. So they take the top students they can get to fill those X slots. The number of applications always exceeds X, so in budget decisions, Universities never give a fark about enrollment numbers. They always know it will be X.

Gyrfalcon: One way to control inflow of students is to raise prices.


You think Universities control how many students they enroll by raising prices? Holy farking shiat this is stupid. Dude, Universities control how many students they enroll by only accepting a specific amount of students. It's not rocket science.

Gyrfalcon: Raising the requirements hasn't slowed the application rate


There isn't a single college or University in the world that wants to slow the application rate. Not one. There is absolutely zero reason to slow that rate. Not one.

Gyrfalcon: Are you imagining that if only there was sufficient money somehow there would be adequate space and sufficient teachers to go around?


I am telling you because there is limited space and teachers, the enrollment size of a major college or University is a pre-determined number to be whatever the fark they want it to be. It has nothing to do with how many students apply because there are always more applications than students. Tuition has absolutely nothing to do with supply and demand of students. The number of students does not change.

Community colleges are completely different. Where they get their money from is different. What their budget is a function of is different. But ultimately, there isn't a single community college that costs anywhere near $150,000, so those are not what we are talking about.
 
2012-12-31 03:31:07 PM  

ProfessorOhki: Coastalgrl: The cost of books is outrageous. I get a tuition waiver in exchange for teaching/research thankfully so Im not getting any more student lons. But this is the first time I'm at a school who uses Barnes and Noble as their bookseller. I have never seen more overpriced books in my life. If I went with the school for my books this term, it would total $800 for 2 grad and 1 undergrad class. I had a few of the books already and only purchased books for the undergrad class......managed to skate for $320 using Amazon but that's for one class.

These better be the best programming books ever.

They were not. You only need the one book and it's like $45. $20 if you can convince an old UNIX guy to part with one of his copies.

[cm.bell-labs.com image 196x256]
/fark textbook publishers


Still the best programming book ever written.
 
2012-12-31 03:47:06 PM  

freewill: bhcompy: It's not about the money, it's about the relative purchasing power. Sounds like he's in the right area if he's happy and makes over the median. That's all that really matters.

The Secret of Life is entering a moderately high-earning field where you can telecommute from a low-cost area.

Seriously.


I'm actively working on that final part now. I figure I could get some acreage and a few dogs, maybe even hire a security guard on what I make if I moved to Indiana.
 
2012-12-31 03:48:13 PM  

Wangiss: freewill: bhcompy: It's not about the money, it's about the relative purchasing power. Sounds like he's in the right area if he's happy and makes over the median. That's all that really matters.

The Secret of Life is entering a moderately high-earning field where you can telecommute from a low-cost area.

Seriously.

I'm actively working on that final part now. I figure I could get some acreage and a few dogs, maybe even hire a security guard on what I make if I moved to Indiana.


Make sure you move close enough to a major metro area that you can commute to work if you lose your job.

/learned from experience
 
2012-12-31 03:54:39 PM  
I took up space in college and got my degree in aerospace engineering back in 1987. I lived with my folks, commuted by bus or carpool for the 4-1/2 years to get my degree, went to the University of Minnesota instead of a snooty private college, and worked at McVomitBurger--and paid off my $2800 in student loans before I graduated. Heck, I got my degree for about $10,000 total.

Good thing I paid things off. I graduated just as the aerospace industry was going into a long slump from which it never really recovered--this was when all of Reagan's Star Wars programs had their budgets drastically slashed. I ended up working in boring clerical jobs for the next couple of decades until I made enough as an artist to escape the Rat Race. It's been a year and a half since I last had a temp job and if I get an important music-video gig and some gigs related to a toy I'm a consultant on, I might permanently escape the corporate world entirely.

I don't regret getting my college degree as it was a matter of pride in my family. I do regret studying rocket science and if I could do things all over again, I'd get a degree in art, but the other things I studied besides math and engineering made college worthwhile to me. What sucks about college is that people have to invest 4 years of effort and a lot of money when they're probably not even certain what it is they want to do for the rest of their lives...

/whoo, hoo!
 
2012-12-31 03:55:39 PM  

Pincy: monoski: Imagine when they find out they can take that $150k and start up their own venture (maybe even a Bucks franchise) skip the 4 years of drinking and whoring and get right down the business of working for a living...

Yes, because I'm sure a teenager right out of high school with no experience will be able to get a $150K loan.


Only a fool (the US Tax Payers) would back that sucker...
 
2012-12-31 03:57:15 PM  
www.brookings.edu

www.investmentpostcards.com
66.147.244.137

blogs.vcu.edu
 
2012-12-31 04:00:46 PM  

Psycat: I took up space in college and got my degree in aerospace engineering back in 1987. I lived with my folks, commuted by bus or carpool for the 4-1/2 years to get my degree, went to the University of Minnesota instead of a snooty private college, and worked at McVomitBurger--and paid off my $2800 in student loans before I graduated. Heck, I got my degree for about $10,000 total.


I lived with a gang of Indian serial rapists, commuted 17 miles each way by foot through an Arctic wasteland and worked as an indentured servant, which permitted me to pay of my $2,799 in student loans before I graduated.

I could have gone to one of those snooty "accredited" schools, but I knew that if I went to a less prestigious institution, I could serve more effectively as an obnoxious, unsolicited mentor on Internet forum posts.
 
2012-12-31 04:00:49 PM  

lilplatinum: Is this the thread where the IT monkeys with their CS Degrees and crappy jobs go and mock people who have the types of degrees that their bosses do?


No, this is the thread that engineering majors who dropped out mock IT monkeys with their CS Degrees.

/With no degree I still make +/- what my brother does with an MBA
//And we are both very gainfully employed in the Defense industry
 
2012-12-31 04:04:03 PM  

ProfessorOhki: Coastalgrl: The cost of books is outrageous. I get a tuition waiver in exchange for teaching/research thankfully so Im not getting any more student lons. But this is the first time I'm at a school who uses Barnes and Noble as their bookseller. I have never seen more overpriced books in my life. If I went with the school for my books this term, it would total $800 for 2 grad and 1 undergrad class. I had a few of the books already and only purchased books for the undergrad class......managed to skate for $320 using Amazon but that's for one class.

These better be the best programming books ever.

They were not. You only need the one book and it's like $45. $20 if you can convince an old UNIX guy to part with one of his copies.

[cm.bell-labs.com image 196x256]
/fark textbook publishers


Actually, my original copy was xeroxed from an old Unix guy.

/And you'll get my "official" copy when you pull it from my cold, dead hands
 
2012-12-31 04:09:28 PM  

Treygreen13: Who spends 150k on an education that doesn't end with medical school or the bar exam?


Engineers?
 
2012-12-31 04:15:49 PM  

The_Gallant_Gallstone: Psycat: I took up space in college and got my degree in aerospace engineering back in 1987. I lived with my folks, commuted by bus or carpool for the 4-1/2 years to get my degree, went to the University of Minnesota instead of a snooty private college, and worked at McVomitBurger--and paid off my $2800 in student loans before I graduated. Heck, I got my degree for about $10,000 total.

I lived with a gang of Indian serial rapists, commuted 17 miles each way by foot through an Arctic wasteland and worked as an indentured servant, which permitted me to pay of my $2,799 in student loans before I graduated.

I could have gone to one of those snooty "accredited" schools, but I knew that if I went to a less prestigious institution, I could serve more effectively as an obnoxious, unsolicited mentor on Internet forum posts.


The University of Minnesota is accredited and is a very good land-grant school. I'm guessing you're some idiot with a B.S. in Butthurt and eleventy-zillion dollars in loans, and my post irritated you to the point where you had to make an obnoxious, unsolicited reply. You made it pretty obvious that I hit a nerve, so suck it while I work my dream job as a full-time artist...
 
2012-12-31 04:18:12 PM  
I've been staring blankly at my computer try justify what possessed me to get a science degree and an arts degree... Theater and botany. A waste of five years, but I busted my ass and walked away with $126 of debt.

However, whenever I am feeling too proud or secure with the choices I have made in my life, I just come to Fark.

Excuse me for a moment, a customer came in and I have to make an americano for them.

True story.
 
2012-12-31 04:21:33 PM  

Psycat: The University of Minnesota is accredited and is a very good land-grant school. I'm guessing you're some idiot with a B.S. in Butthurt and eleventy-zillion dollars in loans, and my post irritated you to the point where you had to make an obnoxious, unsolicited reply. You made it pretty obvious that I hit a nerve, so suck it while I work my dream job as a full-time artist...


I was trying to figure out what that guy's problem was, myself. It's either the worthless degree and a fortune in loans or it's opposite, he never went and is pissed to think he could have done it affordably. Either way, your point was good.

For the most part, nobody really gives a shiat where you go to undergrad. With a few exceptions, you aren't doing yourself any favors choosing an expensive big name and taking out enough loans to drink and party over working a little while you go to a reputable state school where you can get in-state tuition. That's for starry eyed teenagers who think their "college experience" is going to be anything more than a fading blip on the radar of their life once they get out of there and start their careers.

/ ...and it will be, if you spend the rest of your life paying off six figures of loans as a waiter.
 
BHK
2012-12-31 04:24:51 PM  

factoryconnection: The older I get, the more lucky I feel that my parents were ball-busters when it came to academics AND activities throughout school. I got a full scholarship via Navy ROTC, which included books, summer training and a guaranteed, 4-year job after college. My total time spent with Uncle Sam totaled 11 years, and I came away completely debt free with not only an attractive BS diploma but a career-founding resume that has served me since.

School debt is a monster deadweight on so many of my contemporaries, and as tuition/fees rise quickly while wages have stagnated for decades, the problem will only get worse. Schools, lenders, and public education policy makers have got to pull their sh*t together and get education costs under control.


And military costs. One way or another, taxpayers are going to pay for all that education.
 
2012-12-31 04:32:16 PM  

Evil Twin Skippy: ProfessorOhki: Coastalgrl: The cost of books is outrageous. I get a tuition waiver in exchange for teaching/research thankfully so Im not getting any more student lons. But this is the first time I'm at a school who uses Barnes and Noble as their bookseller. I have never seen more overpriced books in my life. If I went with the school for my books this term, it would total $800 for 2 grad and 1 undergrad class. I had a few of the books already and only purchased books for the undergrad class......managed to skate for $320 using Amazon but that's for one class.

These better be the best programming books ever.

They were not. You only need the one book and it's like $45. $20 if you can convince an old UNIX guy to part with one of his copies.

[cm.bell-labs.com image 196x256]
/fark textbook publishers

Actually, my original copy was xeroxed from an old Unix guy.

/And you'll get my "official" copy when you pull it from my cold, dead hands


Apparently its $50 off Amazon.

The class is requesting three books by Walter Savitch on C++ Programming. Any good?

The professor comes highly recommended to me by a colleague and that's more than half the battle in my mind. but we shall see. If the books stink, I can return them if need be. Unlike at a college textbook store where you cant' return till a certain date and then they wont take back more than they feel they need.
 
2012-12-31 04:34:16 PM  

freewill: Psycat: The University of Minnesota is accredited and is a very good land-grant school. I'm guessing you're some idiot with a B.S. in Butthurt and eleventy-zillion dollars in loans, and my post irritated you to the point where you had to make an obnoxious, unsolicited reply. You made it pretty obvious that I hit a nerve, so suck it while I work my dream job as a full-time artist...

I was trying to figure out what that guy's problem was, myself. It's either the worthless degree and a fortune in loans or it's opposite, he never went and is pissed to think he could have done it affordably. Either way, your point was good.


Thanks, freewill! I just posted an innocuous blurb about my own college experience, and he went ballistic on me. I'm guessing he's a textbook example of an over-educated barista with a zillion dollars on loans and the fact that I didn't make the same mistake must have hit a nerve.


For the most part, nobody really gives a shiat where you go to undergrad. With a few exceptions, you aren't doing yourself any favors choosing an expensive big name and taking out enough loans to drink and party over working a little while you go to a reputable state school where you can get in-state tuition. That's for starry eyed teenagers who think their "college experience" is going to be anything more than a fading blip on the radar of their life once they get out of there and start their careers.

/ ...and it will be, if you spend the rest of your life paying off six figures of loans as a waiter.


Agreed. I think so many of the young whipper-snappers have the silly idea that college is exactly like "Animal House". Maybe it's that way for 5%, but the other 95% are guys studying on the GI Loan, single mothers trying to break out of poverty, people returning to school in their 30s, and people like me who had to commute and flip McBurgers to get through school.

On top of that, some of the smartest people I know never went to college and one of them studied plumbing in vo-tech before becoming a professional 'drain surgeon'--and plumbers make a hell of a lot of money...
 
2012-12-31 04:40:01 PM  

freewill: I was trying to figure out what that guy's problem was, myself. It's either the worthless degree and a fortune in loans or it's opposite, he never went and is pissed to think he could have done it affordably. Either way, your point was good.


I was actually imprisoned in an extradimensional vortex for 2,363 years. That said, I'm just slightly resentful that there isn't a similar celebration for my sacrifices. Living with a gang of Indian serial-rapists and hiking barefoot through an Arctic wasteland in order to achieve my educational goals so that I can work my dream job as a full-time straw purchaser of neutron bombs for various rogue states seems to be on par with the intrepid behavior of exceptional Farkers that seemingly defies the trend towards unaffordable education in America today.
 
2012-12-31 04:46:13 PM  
bhcompy:

Going to community college and paying $36/credit for a liberal arts education is much more efficient than going to Haverford and spending $60,000 per year unless you're using it as a springboard to grad school. That is really the only valid reason to attend a prestigious liberal arts college these days.

David Bowie's son "Zowie" went to the College of Wooster, which has only about 2,000 students. He went on to make my favorite SF movie of the 21st century. But he later graduated also from the London Film school as a trained director.

Does this prove or disprove your assertion? Was Wooster College "efficient" for him? I'm not sure myself.
 
2012-12-31 04:55:00 PM  
My college education has actually helped, even if I never got work as a rocket scientist. The engineering and physics aspect of my education does help with my unique genre of art. The many liberal-arts classes I took as electives--from art of the cinema to Greek history--really did help to round out my education and give me an appreciation of things that go way beyond finding work as an engineer.

As for my college composition courses, they helped expand my vocabulary to the point where I can inundate people under a phalanx of egregiously prolix and sesquipedalian verbosity to lend a simulacrum of verisimilitude that I'm pretty gosh-darned perspicacious after all. With the $10,000 I spent on my education, I'm going to use those 50-cent words as much as possible ;)
 
2012-12-31 05:11:33 PM  

The One True TheDavid: bhcompy:

Going to community college and paying $36/credit for a liberal arts education is much more efficient than going to Haverford and spending $60,000 per year unless you're using it as a springboard to grad school. That is really the only valid reason to attend a prestigious liberal arts college these days.

David Bowie's son "Zowie" went to the College of Wooster, which has only about 2,000 students. He went on to make my favorite SF movie of the 21st century. But he later graduated also from the London Film school as a trained director.

Does this prove or disprove your assertion? Was Wooster College "efficient" for him? I'm not sure myself.


It doesn't change my assertion at all, because my assertion didn't mention the obvious assumption that if you can already afford it without loans it doesn't matter at all, or the other obvious assumption about being of direct lineage of a famous person. Regardless, he used that as a springboard to a prestigious college for grad school(Vanderbilt) before dropping out and going to film school, which is a(the?) valid application of a liberal arts college education.
 
2012-12-31 05:19:15 PM  

ProfessorOhki: Coastalgrl: The cost of books is outrageous. I get a tuition waiver in exchange for teaching/research thankfully so Im not getting any more student lons. But this is the first time I'm at a school who uses Barnes and Noble as their bookseller. I have never seen more overpriced books in my life. If I went with the school for my books this term, it would total $800 for 2 grad and 1 undergrad class. I had a few of the books already and only purchased books for the undergrad class......managed to skate for $320 using Amazon but that's for one class.

These better be the best programming books ever.

They were not. You only need the one book and it's like $45. $20 if you can convince an old UNIX guy to part with one of his copies.

[cm.bell-labs.com image 196x256]
/fark textbook publishers


I have a first edition! Says 1978 in it. Not selling it though.
 
2012-12-31 05:30:37 PM  
People don't pay for art, music or performance, anymore. I know. I make music and mix records for a living. Picasso? Get it on the torrents, brah.
 
2012-12-31 05:32:25 PM  
Looks like starbucks has become the McDonalds of the 2010's.

/Some people at McDonalds make more money than teachers
//Just because someone says working somewhere is bad doesn't mean it is
 
2012-12-31 05:37:54 PM  

monoski: Imagine when they find out they can take that $150k and start up their own venture (maybe even a Bucks franchise) skip the 4 years of drinking and whoring and get right down the business of working for a living...


Starbucks does not franchise.
 
2012-12-31 05:39:15 PM  

bunner: People don't pay for art, music or performance, anymore. I know. I make music and mix records for a living. Picasso? Get it on the torrents, brah.


I feel bad when I watch movies at other people's houses. Shouldn't I be paying someone? Anyone?
 
2012-12-31 05:42:32 PM  
Some of those Starbucks Girls are kinda of hot
 
2012-12-31 05:55:20 PM  
Here's an idea, stop charging so f'ing much. The true plan here is to dumb down america or make them so debt laden that they are easy to control. Nobody questions privacy invasions, nobody complains that the monopolies are making us all used to being treated like crap. And people are too busy worrying about the rent to worry about the betrayal of our rights by our corrupt government. The war in Oceana is already in play...
 
2012-12-31 05:55:22 PM  
An argument in favor of a liberal-arts education:

When I was in high school, I was good in science, math, and German, but the classes I loved the most were my art classes. Unfortunately, I had no clue what art form I was most interested in--studio arts, architecture, movie-making--couldn't make up my mind.

I did have a passing interest in aircraft in my senior year. Guidance counselors and most of the muckety-mucks in the local community were pushing science and technology majors--after all, we were still in a Cold War with the Russkies when I was in high school. Between that push and my vain need to show off that I was a total math-n-science stud, not to mention my interest in airplanes, I foolishly decided to study aerospace engineering in school.

Aerospace engineering isn't about being a test pilot or anything cool like that. It's mostly math and more math and maybe 5% of my classmates were women, so it was like living in a monastery filled with math geeks. I was thoroughly bored with it before I graduated, but didn't want to add another year or two, so I plodded forward. About the only things that made college worthwhile were the cool liberal-arts courses I took as electives, and all the time I spent socializing in the student union. In the end, I never actually worked as a rocket scientist, and while I'm glad I got the degree, it would have been a lot more fun if I had majored in art instead. Heck, an art degree would have kicked off my career as an artist a lot earlier than it actually started.

And that's the rub. Whatever you study in college has a good chance of being obsolete by the time you graduate, or the job market gets over-saturated with others with the same degree, so deciding on a major based on the future job market is pretty damned risky. From my experience, it's probably best to study what you love, instead of spending 4 years studying something boring, because you'll probably end up a barista anyways.

In the end, I ended up doing what I always wanted to do anyways. What's funny is that all the weird kinetic-art tricks I learned as a kid and gave up in college--when I was trying to be a serious adult--ended up being the very things that helped me establish my own career. As a professional artist, I find that having a long, impressive list of museums and galleries on my Curriculum Vitae goes a lot further than a Master of Fine Arts degree towards getting new gigs...
 
2012-12-31 05:59:20 PM  

Psycat: I find that having a long, impressive list of museums and galleries on my Curriculum Vitae goes a lot further than a Master of Fine Arts degree towards getting new gigs...


That's a good point... when some curator is looking for janitorial services, it's better to hire someone who has cleaned up other museums.

Mahhughes: The true plan here is to dumb down america or make them so debt laden that they are easy to control. Nobody questions privacy invasions, nobody complains that the monopolies are making us all used to being treated like crap. And people are too busy worrying about the rent to worry about the betrayal of our rights by our corrupt government. The war in Oceana is already in play...


I blame the Masons, who are in collusion with the Muslim faith, Wiccans and socialists; the efforts of which are being orchestrated by that Satanic whore more commonly known as the Roman Catholic Church.
 
2012-12-31 06:06:12 PM  
TWX



Blame the lack of value as perceived by the public at large coupled with the rise of "business school".

Classical education used to help broaden the minds of those who graduated from it. Those people would go on to be civic leaders and their broadened worldview and knowledge outside of the provincial education they otherwise would have been limited by would help them to be better civic leaders, politicians, and yes, bureaucrats. We now elect those with lesser educations tailored toward understanding one's fellow man, which is evident in political discourse these days.

I see business school as primarily a way to give degrees to people who abhor the concept of the classical liberal arts education that used to produce industry management and businessmen. Those business school graduates often think they know what's best for everyone even though they really don't have much experience with other facets of life and really don't know how others live or how to really make improvements, as their education was too narrow, too tailored.

People like to claim that Bachelor of Science degrees don't prepare graduates with a well-enough-rounded education, but that seems to be a much wider problem.



Yeah, your thinking is about 60 or 70 years out of date. The world has changed. Its called a global economy now where we aren't the only stud on the block.
 
2012-12-31 06:07:19 PM  

Great Janitor: More and more I question the value of college. I was fed the "Go to college, get an education, make more money." I did that, found that you can make more money not going into college and instead, going into sales or starting your own business. If you have a calling and a burning desire to become a lawyer, doctor, scientist or engineer, then college definitely. If not, them the debt isn't worth it.


Agreed in general. But some of the best engineers at my current start-up have no college degree. Lawyer or doctor, definitely.
 
2012-12-31 06:11:47 PM  

The_Gallant_Gallstone: Psycat: I find that having a long, impressive list of museums and galleries on my Curriculum Vitae goes a lot further than a Master of Fine Arts degree towards getting new gigs...

That's a good point... when some curator is looking for janitorial services, it's better to hire someone who has cleaned up other museums.


Wow, the butthurt is strong with this one. I still can't figure why you went ballistic on my Boobies other than you're a jackass who's envious that I spent my money more wisely than you did. Or maybe the Indian serial rapists you lived with really scrambled your brains through butt rape. Either way, I must have done something to rattle your cage because you're making it pretty damned obvious that you have some sort of issues. But that's good; an instigator like you who starts trouble deserves to be in a perpetual state of anger.

No, jerkwad, when I'm in a museum, I'm the star--hell, you're probably not even qualified to sweep afterwards. I get paid a minimum of $500 a day to come in, set up one of my amazing contraptions, and sign autographs afterwards. So suck it, envious loser...
 
2012-12-31 06:16:44 PM  
Whoa, that's weird. I typed in "previous post" in my previous post and Fark turned it into "Boobies" for some strange reason. Was the Fark software programmed by some barista with a degree in underwater basket-weaving?
 
2012-12-31 06:23:44 PM  
Anyways, today is the day I enjoy the last of my stupid vices before my New Year's resolutions kick in. So I'm drinking high-fructose corn-syrup drinks, eating crappy Ramen noodles, and cruising waste-of-time websites like Fark, 4 Chan, and Craigslist. I'm about due for a nap before heading out to find a New Year's party in my artist co-op...

/auf Nimmerwiedersehen
 
2012-12-31 07:30:10 PM  
As part of the college admissions process, I think that people should be required to submit a business plan (or *some* sort of plan) with respect to their expectations and goals.

Person A: "Engineering is in my blood. When I was seven, I created my own microwave communications system from junk I found at the dump. It's all I've ever wanted to do. I intend to take Engineering co-op and pay for my degree through summer placements. I've spoken to a number of 'big name' engineering companies who already said that they'd be interested in hiring me once I graduate as long as I maintain a GPA of 3.2:
Recruiter: "Welcome to college!"

Person B: "I'm not really sure what I want to do with my life, but I'm planning to get three degrees (Womyn Studies, English Literature, and Art History) cuz I'm really insecure and mediocre. I intend to pay for my education with student loans. After I graduate, I assume someone will want to hire me for six figures, although I've done no research into this whatsoever. But three degrees. Three!"
Recruiter: "Here's an application form for Starbucks. I think it's more your style".
 
2012-12-31 07:32:09 PM  
I couldn't tell you who has what degree where I work. No one cares. It's all about delivery.
 
2012-12-31 07:37:24 PM  

vudukungfu: letrole: [i.qkme.me image 400x600]

Looks like the typical Johnston State Co-Ed here in Vermont. Got kicked out of a more prestigious school for doing too much acid and such, then mommy and daddy buy her a jeep and a year long ski pass and tuition at JSC, with a lease on an apartment in town, so she can have her privacy while throwing wild parties and farking 57 year old men she met on Alt dot com. (hey, firsthand knowledge) Yep,


Wow - in your profile picture you don't look anywhere close to 57.
 
2012-12-31 07:39:53 PM  

Demodiki: I couldn't tell you who has what degree where I work. No one cares. It's all about delivery.


If it takes longer than 30 minutes, do I get my pizza for free?
 
TWX
2012-12-31 07:50:21 PM  

Buffalo77: Yeah, your thinking is about 60 or 70 years out of date. The world has changed. Its called a global economy now where we aren't the only stud on the block.


Last time I looked, lots of countries don't import nearly as much as we do, and many countries are seemingly happy even if they don't have the largest GDPs.

I don't want to live in a country whose sole purpose is to grow economy. I want to live in a country that manages to provide a comfortable way of life for everyone that wants to apply themselves, and doesn't let people completely fall through the cracks.

I see many degrees as promoting a method or career for only one's own personal benefit, rather than for one's personal benefit first, but for positive contributions for society as well. This, "I've got mine, screw you all," attitude is not good for us.
 
2012-12-31 08:32:45 PM  

WhippingBoy: Demodiki: I couldn't tell you who has what degree where I work. No one cares. It's all about delivery.

If it takes longer than 30 minutes, do I get my pizza for free?


Well...yeah.
 
2012-12-31 08:38:43 PM  
It was very difficult having this discussion with my daughter, a senior in H.S. at the time, whether or not to go to college.  Ultimately she decided to enter the workforce.  She has moved out and has her own apartment now, a car and a decent job at the same company where her mom works.  And no debt.

She has been saving money for college in the future if she chooses.
 
2012-12-31 09:03:44 PM  
I dont get all the biatching about college debt. Dont like paying bills? Then dont borrow money. It isnt rocket science. If you went to college and still owe money then pay your damn debt. Part of the reason college costs so much is all the deadbeats that dont pay what they owe.

Rather than owing when you get out why not work and pay your way through? I owed nothing when I got out. I also never borrowed a damn bit. Nor was I given any of the funds. Instead I worked 40-50 hrs a week. It slowed me down a bit and I was only able to carry 12 units or so a semester but I was able to get the job done and get out owing nothing. While some liberal arts folks I knew continued to pay for years and/or struggled to find work I was able to put the engineering degree to immediate use.
 
2012-12-31 09:27:41 PM  

Ima4nic8or: I dont get all the biatching about college debt. Dont like paying bills? Then dont borrow money. It isnt rocket science. If you went to college and still owe money then pay your damn debt. Part of the reason college costs so much is all the deadbeats that dont pay what they owe.


True that... if you want a bailout, get yourself a $1,250/hour lobbyist and be a Too Big To Fail institution.

/ Personal Responsibility... good for the Little People
 
2012-12-31 09:50:37 PM  

Ima4nic8or: I dont get all the biatching about college debt. Dont like paying bills? Then dont borrow money. It isnt rocket science. If you went to college and still owe money then pay your damn debt. Part of the reason college costs so much is all the deadbeats that dont pay what they owe.


I always thought the reason college costs so much was because a bunch of people were going in on student loans or the GI Bill (if military), that the colleges figured they were going to get theirs, so why not raise the tuition prices and milk the fark out of a cash-cow.
 
2012-12-31 10:09:51 PM  

Ima4nic8or: I dont get all the biatching about college debt. Dont like paying bills? Then dont borrow money. It isnt rocket science. If you went to college and still owe money then pay your damn debt. Part of the reason college costs so much is all the deadbeats that dont pay what they owe.

Rather than owing when you get out why not work and pay your way through? I owed nothing when I got out. I also never borrowed a damn bit. Nor was I given any of the funds. Instead I worked 40-50 hrs a week. It slowed me down a bit and I was only able to carry 12 units or so a semester but I was able to get the job done and get out owing nothing. While some liberal arts folks I knew continued to pay for years and/or struggled to find work I was able to put the engineering degree to immediate use.


You are so bootstrappy!
 
2012-12-31 10:40:36 PM  
Just as a note;

A) 17-18 year old just graduating high school have a tendency to be idiots. Especially when it comes to genuine predator-like adversarial relationships, where Party B is telling party A to do something for "Their own good" that will screw them over for decades, because it will make Party B more money.

B) Student loans people are party B.

C) As much as you cry "BE SMARTER", there is a lot of money to be made tricking young people into signing away their financial futures, and they're unlikely to catch on anytime soon.

D) We need to take care of party B. Harshly. And all the people accessorizing it. Which includes people denying there's anything wrong with Party B at all.
 
2012-12-31 10:46:43 PM  

Psycat: Whoa, that's weird. I typed in "previous post" in my previous post and Fark turned it into "Boobies" for some strange reason. Was the Fark software programmed by some barista with a degree in underwater basket-weaving?


Read the FArQ.
 
2013-01-01 12:14:47 AM  
$150,000 is a small price to pay for the right to one-up mention where you went to college in every single conversation you will have for the rest of your life.
 
2013-01-01 12:25:59 AM  
My son is turning 18 next year, and (thanks to starting early and some help from his grandparents), has a good-sized 529 plan in place.....that being said, we're making sure he is doing everything to get even more of a leg up - he just got his Eagle Scout rank, and is working on SAT prep....but his first two years will likely be at community college...because it's cheaper, gives him time to make some changes in direction if he needs to, and two years to grow up a bit before making decisions that cost a lot more to change. Also, where UVA and William and Mary have a 33% admission rate....it's guaranteed if you get a 2-year NoVA degree. So, a lot of stress gets taken off the bill, too.
 
2013-01-01 12:45:59 AM  

towatchoverme: LtDarkstar: towatchoverme: LtDarkstar: haha you're doing it wrong!

Me + technical college (few thousand at most) + part time evening classes at Ottawa University = $50k/yr job ;) & no student loans! heh!

You clearly got what you paid for.

It was a good deal and I make more money than most people that live in this area :) (Web designer)

You're in the wrong area. :-) You still in Ottawa? Self-employed or with a firm?


Milwaukee, WI area actually. With a large international company.
 
2013-01-01 12:47:21 AM  
Don't take out so much in loans. Get some scholarships instead.
 
2013-01-01 01:45:44 AM  
Or maybe go to a state school instead
 
2013-01-01 04:36:41 AM  

lilplatinum: Is this the thread where the IT monkeys with their CS Degrees and crappy jobs go and mock people who have the types of degrees that their bosses do?


Its also the thread where guys who graduated 10 years ago berate today's students for racking up huge debts without any clue has to how much tuition has gone up since they went.


Seriously. If you haven't been in college in more than six or so years look up the cost per credit hour of your old school. It'll blow your freakin' hair back to see how much more expensive it became. I'm going back this semester to finish what I started and when I realized how much it had gone up since just 2006 I wanted to kill myself. What used to pay for an entire year will barely buy one semester these days. And that is not an exaggeration. Back when we went to school a kid could get a degree in underwater basket weaving and not be fiscally destroyed by it, unlike today.
 
2013-01-01 10:52:46 AM  

burning_bridge: lilplatinum: Is this the thread where the IT monkeys with their CS Degrees and crappy jobs go and mock people who have the types of degrees that their bosses do?

Its also the thread where guys who graduated 10 years ago berate today's students for racking up huge debts without any clue has to how much tuition has gone up since they went.


Seriously. If you haven't been in college in more than six or so years look up the cost per credit hour of your old school. It'll blow your freakin' hair back to see how much more expensive it became. I'm going back this semester to finish what I started and when I realized how much it had gone up since just 2006 I wanted to kill myself. What used to pay for an entire year will barely buy one semester these days. And that is not an exaggeration. Back when we went to school a kid could get a degree in underwater basket weaving and not be fiscally destroyed by it, unlike today.


My jaw dropped when I stumbled on my Dad's University catalog from 1972; graduate school tuition was $20/per credit hour back then. In some ways, people really did have it easier back in those days.

/ puts the Boomer disdain for subsequent generations in perspective as well...
 
2013-01-01 10:59:20 AM  

burning_bridge: Its also the thread where guys who graduated 10 years ago berate today's students for racking up huge debts without any clue has to how much tuition has gone up since they went.


Hey it increased plenty between 1999-2003 when I was there, sure the prices are out of control - but its still, what, 5 grand a semester. Thats 10 grand a year of tuition and fees and if you are smart you can knock that out in 3 or 3.5 years. Work during college and you are out with manageable debt - as long as you weren't an idiot that went to private school for undergrad.

(If you did go somewhere that costs 30k a year for undergrad for an English degree and you do it via loans, then yes, I have no sympathy for you).
 
2013-01-01 12:51:06 PM  
Learn a trade with your hands

you'll be alright
 
2013-01-01 06:13:11 PM  

AsprinBurn: The technique? YouTube it.


Lately I've taken up several styles of dancing... while videos are helpful, it's hardly sufficient, except for perhaps a few uniquely talented individuals. Doesn't necessarily mean you need study at Juilliard, but sometimes it is indeed worth it to pay someone to teach you something...
 
2013-01-01 10:30:42 PM  

proteus_b: AsprinBurn: The technique? YouTube it.

Lately I've taken up several styles of dancing... while videos are helpful, it's hardly sufficient, except for perhaps a few uniquely talented individuals. Doesn't necessarily mean you need study at Juilliard, but sometimes it is indeed worth it to pay someone to teach you something...


Juilliard is all paid for by donations. Dance lessons are $30-$75/hr. $150/hr for truly professional stuff. But I don't know anybody with tens of thousands in dance instruction debt.
 
2013-01-03 08:42:16 AM  

Wangiss: Juilliard is all paid for by donations. Dance lessons are $30-$75/hr. $150/hr for truly professional stuff. But I don't know anybody with tens of thousands in dance instruction debt.


thank you for that completely irrelevant comment.
 
2013-01-03 01:10:03 PM  

proteus_b: Wangiss: Juilliard is all paid for by donations. Dance lessons are $30-$75/hr. $150/hr for truly professional stuff. But I don't know anybody with tens of thousands in dance instruction debt.

thank you for that completely irrelevant comment.


I do my best.
 
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