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(Daily Mail)   British hospitals prepare to euthanize 60,000 old people. Minister calls this "fantastic step forward"   (dailymail.co.uk) divider line 236
    More: Obvious, Royal College of Physicians  
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21786 clicks; posted to Main » on 31 Dec 2012 at 12:15 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-30 07:51:32 PM  
Last time I checked, private health insurance was available for purchase in the UK. If the public system is not enough, sell your assets and buy it. Or die. You have an option.
 
2012-12-30 08:04:55 PM  
Jesus Fark.  I'm all for the idea of not prolonging death when folks are suffering - but this... this is absolutely sinister.
 
2012-12-30 08:07:39 PM  
DEATH PANELS!!!!

This is gonna be good. Off to make popcorn.
 
2012-12-30 08:07:53 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: Jesus Fark.  I'm all for the idea of not prolonging death when folks are suffering - but this... this is absolutely sinister.


it's not sinister, it's just cost effective. has capitalism taught you people nothing?
 
2012-12-30 08:27:40 PM  
 
2012-12-30 08:31:03 PM  

PacManDreaming: Why does the UK want to be like Texas?


So nobody messes with them?
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2012-12-30 08:36:42 PM  
The pathway involves withdrawal of lifesaving treatment, with the sick sedated and usually denied nutrition and fluids. Death typically takes place within 29 hours.

Happens in America too, and may be standard for certain types of people in hospice care.

As it was explained to me in one case, involving a person with adequate health coverage, attendants monitor breathing rate to decide when the old, sick person is suffering too much. At that point they give morphine, and death usually follows within a couple days. It seemed like euthanasia to me, though the morphine dose is not enough on its own to kill.
 
2012-12-30 08:41:48 PM  
He does look like a self satisfied git though,doesn't he?
 
2012-12-30 09:00:44 PM  

ZAZ: The pathway involves withdrawal of lifesaving treatment, with the sick sedated and usually denied nutrition and fluids. Death typically takes place within 29 hours.

Happens in America too, and may be standard for certain types of people in hospice care.

As it was explained to me in one case, involving a person with adequate health coverage, attendants monitor breathing rate to decide when the old, sick person is suffering too much. At that point they give morphine, and death usually follows within a couple days. It seemed like euthanasia to me, though the morphine dose is not enough on its own to kill.


That's great that we have that option.  I've already talked to both of my parents (early 60's) and neither want to be hooked up to machines extending their "life".  But it is their call if they can still speak, and my call if they are unconscious.  It is not the place of a doctor to make the decision to actively end the life of a person with out legal consent.
 
2012-12-30 09:09:21 PM  
Better than them being gun deaths.
 
2012-12-30 09:11:19 PM  
Now if we could only get the Baby Boomers to off themselves we'd be in business.
 
2012-12-30 09:12:51 PM  
Greenlighting daily fail articles still a major step backwards.
 
2012-12-30 09:15:25 PM  

beautifulbob: ZAZ: The pathway involves withdrawal of lifesaving treatment, with the sick sedated and usually denied nutrition and fluids. Death typically takes place within 29 hours.

Happens in America too, and may be standard for certain types of people in hospice care.

As it was explained to me in one case, involving a person with adequate health coverage, attendants monitor breathing rate to decide when the old, sick person is suffering too much. At that point they give morphine, and death usually follows within a couple days. It seemed like euthanasia to me, though the morphine dose is not enough on its own to kill.

That's great that we have that option.  I've already talked to both of my parents (early 60's) and neither want to be hooked up to machines extending their "life".  But it is their call if they can still speak, and my call if they are unconscious.  It is not the place of a doctor to make the decision to actively end the life of a person with out legal consent.


You don't understand 0bamacare.
 
2012-12-30 09:20:40 PM  

tenpoundsofcheese: You don't understand 0bamacare.


You have a tenuous grasp on the English language.
 
2012-12-30 09:43:05 PM  
blogs.amctv.com
 
2012-12-30 09:43:40 PM  
This is the Daily Fail.  At least one key piece of information is missing here, assuming this wasn't totally distorted.
 
2012-12-30 09:59:38 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: Jesus Fark.  I'm all for the idea of not prolonging death when folks are suffering - but this... this is absolutely sinister.


After a series of strokes, my mother was unresponsive and immobile, surviving via nutrition on a stomach tube for a full two years while my father "hoped for the best".  I blame chicken-shiat doctors for not giving my father a true prognosis, and money-grubbing nursing homes for putting my mother through that pain.  Two f*cking years.  In the end, they pulled the stomach tube and substituted morphine.  It was the humane thing to do.

Aside from the (alleged) lack of pain treatment, I don't see a problem with this.
 
2012-12-30 10:18:59 PM  

beautifulbob: I've already talked to both of my parents (early 60's) and neither want to be hooked up to machines extending their "life".  But it is their call if they can still speak, and my call if they are unconscious.  It is not the place of a doctor to make the decision to actively end the life of a person with out legal consent.


If only death were that clean.  You can live for years on with no cognitive function and no assistance from machinery. See my post just up there ^^^^.  Well, I hope there was no cognitive function, because otherwise she was stuck in the worst of prisons for 2 years.

That sh*t-show was a result of no doctor having the authority to tell my father that there was no reasonable hope of meaningful recovery.  It was simpler for them to just hand this breathing cadaver over to a nursing home, which was more than happy to park her in a room and shove some Ensure in a stomach tube a couple times a day and give my Dad "updates" on her "progress".

We all like to think we've cleaned up all the loose ends, and that our loved ones will make the right decisions.  But sometimes, a person who sees this professionally dozens of times a month should have an authoritative voice.
 
2012-12-30 10:32:50 PM  
www.sidkaliflicks.com
 
2012-12-30 10:39:58 PM  

Babwa Wawa: beautifulbob: I've already talked to both of my parents (early 60's) and neither want to be hooked up to machines extending their "life".  But it is their call if they can still speak, and my call if they are unconscious.  It is not the place of a doctor to make the decision to actively end the life of a person with out legal consent.

If only death were that clean.  You can live for years on with no cognitive function and no assistance from machinery. See my post just up there ^^^^.  Well, I hope there was no cognitive function, because otherwise she was stuck in the worst of prisons for 2 years.

That sh*t-show was a result of no doctor having the authority to tell my father that there was no reasonable hope of meaningful recovery.  It was simpler for them to just hand this breathing cadaver over to a nursing home, which was more than happy to park her in a room and shove some Ensure in a stomach tube a couple times a day and give my Dad "updates" on her "progress".

We all like to think we've cleaned up all the loose ends, and that our loved ones will make the right decisions.  But sometimes, a person who sees this professionally dozens of times a month should have an authoritative voice.


I pray I never get put in that position.  I can't imagine how hard it will be to pull the plug, even with their expressed desires.  I will need to rely on an authoritative opinion of a doctor.  More than one probably.  Maybe even take the condition to a panel of doctors.  But the final decision should be left to the family.  Families will make poor, emotional decisions.  But fully informed, it should be their right.  Not the right of a doctor, even if they are making the best choice for the patient.
 
2012-12-30 10:49:08 PM  

Babwa Wawa: beautifulbob: I've already talked to both of my parents (early 60's) and neither want to be hooked up to machines extending their "life".  But it is their call if they can still speak, and my call if they are unconscious.  It is not the place of a doctor to make the decision to actively end the life of a person with out legal consent.

If only death were that clean.

you want a clean death?

 
2012-12-30 10:54:55 PM  
As islands go, Britland is a decent size. Still, it can't be expanded.
So getting rid of 600K should free up a little elbow room.
 
2012-12-30 10:57:40 PM  

Babwa Wawa: Benevolent Misanthrope: Jesus Fark.  I'm all for the idea of not prolonging death when folks are suffering - but this... this is absolutely sinister.

After a series of strokes, my mother was unresponsive and immobile, surviving via nutrition on a stomach tube for a full two years while my father "hoped for the best".  I blame chicken-shiat doctors for not giving my father a true prognosis, and money-grubbing nursing homes for putting my mother through that pain.  Two f*cking years.  In the end, they pulled the stomach tube and substituted morphine.  It was the humane thing to do.

Aside from the (alleged) lack of pain treatment, I don't see a problem with this.


At that point, they were prolonging death, not prolonging life.  As I said - prolonging death is unconscionable, and I'm so sorry you and your family had to go through that.  But if what TFA said is true, and people are being euthanized simply because they're old (but they're conscious and not suffering when the decision is made to snow them under)... those cases are truly evil, to my mind.
 
2012-12-30 11:11:09 PM  

beautifulbob: Families will make poor, emotional decisions.  But fully informed, it should be their right.


Therein lies the rub.  We place the decision in the hands of those mostly likely to make poor decisions.  Popular culture barrages us with survivor mentality, teaching us to expect "miracles" and how the will of the mind/soul can overcome physical realities.  This is helpful for those who actually have hope of recovery, but it severely damages the ability of the terminally ill and their loved ones to cope with their situations.  Just today I was talking to my sister about her attempts to start a non-profit in honor of her business partner who knew he had terminal cancer for months but failed to tell his 9 year old daughter, expecting to "beat" it.

The mentality that death is unnatural is very difficult for doctors overcome.  Just like with children, there must be a mechanism for doctors to leverage when loved ones are no longer acting in the best interest of the patient.
 
2012-12-30 11:17:58 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: prolonging death is unconscionable


Then what do you do when the health care proxy (usually the spouse) is prolonging death?  Does the health care provider have an obligation to act?  If not, who does?
 
2012-12-30 11:25:09 PM  

Babwa Wawa: We place the decision in the hands of those mostly likely to make poor decisions.


I refer to that as the natural "Hold ma beer and watch this" selection we've placed upon our society. It's fun and sad to watch at the same time.

You raise a good point. We had to have that talk with my mom when grandma was on the way out. She just kept thinking we needed to try something else, but it was clear to everyone else the end was near. It was a difficult time, but I like to think we all got a little closer as a result of it. Also, we've all discussed how we'd like similar situations handled with all of us.
 
2012-12-30 11:26:00 PM  

Babwa Wawa: Benevolent Misanthrope: prolonging death is unconscionable

Then what do you do when the health care proxy (usually the spouse) is prolonging death?  Does the health care provider have an obligation to act?  If not, who does?


Not sure.  And not interested in debating you over it.  I do know that I'm very leery of a health care provider who stands to gain by someone's death being the sole determiner of when someone should die.
 
2012-12-30 11:32:35 PM  
The stupidity in this thread will be spectacular once it hits the main page. I predict this becoming a legendary thread. My amazing psychic powers also predict people with no idea of what end of life care REALLY means will be happy to tell us how it REALLY is.

I'm also willing to bet we'll get a deluge of people who are more than happy to shove Grandma and Grandpa into an underpaid, understaffed medicare-supported nursing home while visiting them once a year on the holidays, and keep them alive with a feeding tube and trach long after anything resembling them has died away.

These are the same asshats who made Terri Schiavo a household name, rather than allowing her to die with dignity.

/as a side note, "Life at Any costs" assholes like these are the reason I have an ADR/Living Will at the age of 27 and in relatively good health, and have multiple people legally designated to carry it out if another refuses.
 
2012-12-30 11:33:40 PM  
I don't know if there's a British equivalent (probably is), but when I had to pull the plug on wife #1, I had her directive to physicians at hand. But she was brain dead. Involuntary euthanasia with conscious people is probably murder.
 
2012-12-30 11:33:50 PM  

beautifulbob: But it is their call if they can still speak, and my call if they are unconscious.  It is not the place of a doctor to make the decision to actively end the life of a person with out legal consent.


And you're a complete monster if you don't follow through with THEIR wishes.
 
2012-12-30 11:37:22 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: Not sure


Yeah, me neither.  But in my thinking it's sure as hell not black and white.  I'm not sure I'd entrust my end-of-life decisions to a random doctor, but I'm also not sure someone whose thinking might be clouded by emotion.

NewportBarGuy: We had to have that talk with my mom when grandma


In my experience, it's a lot easier when the death is part of an expected progression.  We all expect to bury our parents, but many of us are unprepared to bury our spouse, and burying a child is unthinkable.  The really horrifying results come with an untimely terminal illness or injury, and a doctor who is either unwilling to speak reality to the patient and family, or is ignored when they do so.
 
2012-12-30 11:46:05 PM  
The Daily Fail is making shiat up again.
 
2012-12-30 11:50:15 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: I do know that I'm very leery of a health care provider who stands to gain by someone's death being the sole determiner of when someone should die.


You do realize that it's against Federal Law for a healthcare provider who stands to make a financial gain to be involved in a brain death determination, right?
 
2012-12-31 12:05:52 AM  

BronyMedic: Benevolent Misanthrope: I do know that I'm very leery of a health care provider who stands to gain by someone's death being the sole determiner of when someone should die.

You do realize that it's against Federal Law for a healthcare provider who stands to make a financial gain to be involved in a brain death determination, right?


Apparently, in Britain (where this story happens), the government (health care provider) has the right to do just that.  Which is the entire point of TFA.
 
2012-12-31 12:16:10 AM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: Apparently, in Britain (where this story happens), the government (health care provider) has the right to do just that. Which is the entire point of TFA.


Right, but the point still stands that if you choose to do so, you can buy an additional private insurance plan if you wish to cling to life at the cost of yourself. The state healthcare system exists to provide basic and life-saving health care. If you require more than that, you're just going to have to pay for it.

I just wish we had the same system here as it at least provides a baseline of care for all citizens. We'd also have the option of the private ad-on, it would just cost a ton of money. Too bad we got this mish-mosh of a f*cked up plan that is going to be a goddamn nightmare and not do everything it could if we were all acting like rational actors. It's better than the current state of affairs, but we could have done so much better.
 
2012-12-31 12:19:26 AM  

GAT_00: This is the Daily Fail.  At least one key piece of information is missing here, assuming this wasn't totally distorted.


The full quotes:

'I would be very sad if as a result of something that is a big step forward going wrong in one or two cases we discredited the concept that we need to do a lot better to give people dignity in their final hours because it's something we haven't done well.

'Lots of people don't want to die with lots of tubes going in and out of their body - they actually want to die in a dignified way.'

He added: 'What should never happen is that people should be put on to that care pathway without patients being fully in the loop and their families and relatives being fully in the loop as well.'
 
2012-12-31 12:20:16 AM  
Euthenasia for pets. The "humane thing" to do.

Using extraordinary measures to keep the 90 year old senile bag of bone breathing. Also "humane"

WTF?
 
2012-12-31 12:20:42 AM  
Up to 60,000 patients die on the Liverpool Care Pathway each year without giving their consent, shocking figures revealed yesterday.
...
the Health Secretary said 'one or two' mistakes should not be allowed to discredit the entire end-of-life system.


One or two, okay, mistakes happen. 60,000, though... maybe we've crossed that line.
 
2012-12-31 12:21:18 AM  
i1121.photobucket.com
 
2012-12-31 12:21:24 AM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: BronyMedic: Benevolent Misanthrope: I do know that I'm very leery of a health care provider who stands to gain by someone's death being the sole determiner of when someone should die.

You do realize that it's against Federal Law for a healthcare provider who stands to make a financial gain to be involved in a brain death determination, right?

Apparently, in Britain (where this story happens), the government (health care provider) has the right to do just that.  Which is the entire point of TFA.


TFA is an outright lie.
 
2012-12-31 12:21:29 AM  

Bucky Katt: The Daily Fail is making shiat up again.


It's a day that ends in 'y' already?
 
2012-12-31 12:23:07 AM  
I'm not dead yet! I feel happy! In fact, I think I'll take a walk.
 
2012-12-31 12:24:54 AM  

OneFretAway: I'm not dead yet! I feel happy! In fact, I think I'll take a walk.


get back on the cart!
 
2012-12-31 12:24:59 AM  
This reminds me, I still haven't signed a Living Will. One would think my laziness would bow to my desire not to be kept on machines or in a vegetative state. Given my hobbies, this is kinda important.
 
2012-12-31 12:26:26 AM  
Fine with me. Old people are ugly.
 
2012-12-31 12:27:23 AM  
Pass the soylent green please !
 
2012-12-31 12:28:00 AM  

L.D. Ablo: [blogs.amctv.com image 560x330]


Covered.....

/RENEW!
 
2012-12-31 12:29:27 AM  
Why not? Doctors do it all the time in the usa. Patient not responding..lingering in pain, no hope, they give too much meds, or withhold them, knowing that the patient will die. It's merciful. They just dont TALK about it openly.
 
2012-12-31 12:29:33 AM  
I know, let's spend hundreds of millions of dollars so that they can live a few more months.
Money well spent.

On a more serious note we need a serious discussion about end of life care in the US that we are not having, and we need to have it before the Boomers bankrupt us all. Just because something can be done for a patient doesn't mean it should.
 
2012-12-31 12:29:39 AM  
Care Pathways shower facility:

img2u.info

Here, next of kin, these are your beloved relative's ashes, or at least some of it probably is, it costs less if we simply pile all the bodies into the incinerator at once and shovel this stuff out afterwards.
 
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