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(Huffington Post)   It might be the Belgians who finally bring down the Cult of $cientology   (huffingtonpost.com) divider line 92
    More: Interesting, Scientology, Belgium, cults, extortion, G20 summit, EU summit, fake  
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24149 clicks; posted to Main » on 30 Dec 2012 at 6:37 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
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Archived thread
2012-12-30 07:49:02 AM
7 votes:

KeelingLovesCornholes: Scientology has become a bit cultish, but buried alive?


It was always a cult.

Treating severe brain injuries with imprisonment and treating psychological instability with vitamins may not be the same as burying someone alive, but people end up just as dead:

Lisa McPherson
Elli Perkins
2012-12-30 07:33:59 AM
7 votes:
Pretty much anyone who compares Scientology to a mainstream religion does not know what the fark they are talking about.

/atheist
//yes, it is a cult
2012-12-30 06:14:01 AM
7 votes:

RobertBruce: Is there any claim against them that can't be used against Catholicism?


The biggest difference between a cult and a genuine religion is that a genuine religion is open about its beliefs. There's no esoteric knowledge, no secret initiation. No mysteries. No levels of membership of the faith. Anyone can come along to a service and see what's going on. Anyone can look up the Catholic Catechism or read the Bible. They might disagree with the Church's religious position, but it's easy to find out what its position is. Yes, they do pass around a collection plate for tithes - but the how much and whether you give money at all is entirely voluntary. And all you have to do to leave is quit going. There's no de-registration process. You don't write the Pope to say "I no longer wish to be Catholic" and there's no sanction against you for leaving.
2012-12-30 02:02:21 AM
7 votes:

RobertBruce: Is there any claim against them that can't be used against Catholicism?


The Catholic Church does not force you to unperson your lapsed Catholic friends and relatives.
2012-12-29 10:45:52 PM
6 votes:
About damn time the Belgians did something worthwhile. You can't keep riding that waffle forever.
2012-12-30 09:04:07 AM
5 votes:
Religion Versus Cult


Religions respect the individual's autonomy.
Cults enforce compliance.

Religions try to help individuals meet their spiritual needs.
Cults exploit spiritual needs.

Religions tolerate and even encourage questions and independent, critical thinking.
Cults discourage questions and independent critical thinking.

Religions encourage psycho-spiritual integration.
Cults "split" members into the "good cult self" and the "bad old self."

Conversion to religions involves an unfolding of internal processes central to a person's identity.
Cultic conversion involves an unaware surrender to external forces that care little for the person's identity.

Religions view money as a means, subject to ethical restraints, toward achieving noble ends.
Cults view money as an end or as a means toward achieving power or the selfish goals of the leader.

Religions view sex between clergy and the faithful as unethical.
Cults frequently subject members to the sexual appetites of the leaders.

Religions respond to critics respectfully.
Cults frequently intimidate critics with physical or legal threats.

Religions cherish the family.
Cults view the family as an enemy.

Religions encourage a person to think carefully before making a commitment to join.
Cults encourage quick decisions with little information.
2012-12-30 07:20:57 AM
5 votes:

RobertBruce: Is there any claim against them that can't be used against Catholicism?


Catholics don't charge you $100,000 to learn about Jesus, you ignorant fool.
2012-12-30 08:33:40 AM
4 votes:

doglover: thisispete: RobertBruce: Is there any claim against them that can't be used against Catholicism?

The biggest difference between a cult and a genuine religion is that a genuine religion is open about its beliefs. There's no esoteric knowledge, no secret initiation. No mysteries. No levels of membership of the faith. Anyone can come along to a service and see what's going on. Anyone can look up the Catholic Catechism or read the Bible. They might disagree with the Church's religious position, but it's easy to find out what its position is. Yes, they do pass around a collection plate for tithes - but the how much and whether you give money at all is entirely voluntary. And all you have to do to leave is quit going. There's no de-registration process. You don't write the Pope to say "I no longer wish to be Catholic" and there's no sanction against you for leaving.

If only that were true.

First off, there's esoteric knowledge and levels of membership in ALL religions. That's why Catholics even have the Pope is because he's the highest ranking member of the Church, all members of which outrank the laypeople. I'm pretty sure you also lose friends and family if you get excommunicated. Not quite the same as leaving the church, but it's a special kick-out process with consequences.

Then there's things like Buddhism where it's self limiting. If you don't meditate, you don't advance because... well you can't. No sit ups, no abs. No meditation, no wisdom. So the levels of involvement are almost cast in stone. No mikabozu( 3 day monk) is gonna get very far.


I left the Catholic church 5 years ago and became Episcopal. Everyone else in my family remains Catholic. Other than not going up for communion, there have been no consequences. My family still talks to me, I'm still able to be a godfather to my nephew, still able to go to mass if I'm in the area, etc.

Excommunication is likely different more as a social stigma rather than the Church saying you can't associate with that person.
2012-12-30 08:25:21 AM
4 votes:

doglover: thisispete: RobertBruce: Is there any claim against them that can't be used against Catholicism?

The biggest difference between a cult and a genuine religion is that a genuine religion is open about its beliefs. There's no esoteric knowledge, no secret initiation. No mysteries. No levels of membership of the faith. Anyone can come along to a service and see what's going on. Anyone can look up the Catholic Catechism or read the Bible. They might disagree with the Church's religious position, but it's easy to find out what its position is. Yes, they do pass around a collection plate for tithes - but the how much and whether you give money at all is entirely voluntary. And all you have to do to leave is quit going. There's no de-registration process. You don't write the Pope to say "I no longer wish to be Catholic" and there's no sanction against you for leaving.

If only that were true.

First off, there's esoteric knowledge and levels of membership in ALL religions. That's why Catholics even have the Pope is because he's the highest ranking member of the Church, all members of which outrank the laypeople. I'm pretty sure you also lose friends and family if you get excommunicated. Not quite the same as leaving the church, but it's a special kick-out process with consequences.

Then there's things like Buddhism where it's self limiting. If you don't meditate, you don't advance because... well you can't. No sit ups, no abs. No meditation, no wisdom. So the levels of involvement are almost cast in stone. No mikabozu( 3 day monk) is gonna get very far.


There are levels of membership, but they don't claim to give you magical powers as they do in Scientology, nor do they gain you access to esoteric knowledge.

You are flat out wrong about esoteric knowledge. Outside of Dan brown novels there are no hidden or secret scriptures that only the high level priest know about.

I don't know if you can really call it "advancement" in buddhism. And the knowledge you get is inner knowledge.
2012-12-30 07:50:04 AM
4 votes:

ThrobblefootSpectre: MadSkillz: BSABSVR: RobertBruce: Is there any claim against them that can't be used against Catholicism?

The Catholic Church does not force you to unperson your lapsed Catholic friends and relatives.

Note that the Jehova's Witnesses pretty much force you to unfriend anyone who leaves. And your family that isn't in the church.

Atheism is like that too. I know atheists who absolutely refuse to associate with anyone who has religious belief (non-atheist, in other words). So they pretty much stay within their own insular cult.


Those aren't atheists. My sister is an atheist. My son is an atheist. They're totally cool with me. You are describing anti-theistis. They are no better than those evangelical Christer fundie whack jobs and should be openly mocked if they cannot simply be avoided. Don't go down without a fight, dude! Remind them that when they act up like that, they are no better than that which they claim to despise.

/Nordic Heathen wench
//We throw the BEST parties!
///and we know how to cook and craft!
2012-12-30 07:29:13 AM
4 votes:
its 2013 for farks sake, why is shiat like this still around? why are people still that farking stupid? god farking dam it to science
2012-12-30 06:56:14 AM
4 votes:

doglover: If only that were true.

First off, there's esoteric knowledge and levels of membership in ALL religions. That's why Catholics even have the Pope is because he's the highest ranking member of the Church, all members of which outrank the laypeople. I'm pretty sure you also lose friends and family if you get excommunicated. Not quite the same as leaving the church, but it's a special kick-out process with consequences.

Then there's things like Buddhism where it's self limiting. If you don't meditate, you don't advance because... well you can't. No sit ups, no abs. No meditation, no wisdom. So the levels of involvement are almost cast in stone. No mikabozu( 3 day monk) is gonna get very far.


But a religion doesn't say you achieve enlightenment or have stronger faith or have an easier path to heaven if you're a member of the clergy rather than the laity. In fact, it's customary to call the pope a "first among equals". There's no presumption that God would look more kindly on someone who has taken holy orders than on other members of the faith. As for excommunication, it's not banishment, the effect of it is that a person cannot partake in the sacraments, i.e. receive communion. It serves as a call for reconciliation and an excommunicated person on receiving absolution is welcome to resume full participation in the faith. The Catholic Encyclopedia has a full rundown on it..
2012-12-30 03:55:57 AM
4 votes:

Crudbucket: About damn time the Belgians did something worthwhile. You can't keep riding that waffle forever.


Lesser known than the waffle, maybe, but they have some excellent beer.
2012-12-29 11:55:58 PM
4 votes:

RobertBruce: Is there any claim against them that can't be used against Catholicism?


Catholics don't require money for membership.  At all.
2012-12-30 09:58:47 AM
3 votes:

RobertBruce: Is there any claim against them that can't be used against Catholicism?


Catholics don't keep written records of everything you confess that they'll use against you if you leave the church.
2012-12-30 09:23:11 AM
3 votes:

RobertBruce: Is there any claim against them that can't be used against Catholicism?


The Pope never broke into the IRS.
2012-12-30 09:22:50 AM
3 votes:

JerkyMeat: What is the U.S. waiting for?


For the $cientologists to stop bribing its leaders, I speculate. Moscone and Milk supported Jim Jones, even though they knew he was weird. Backscratching is Bond in the political moral code.

Maybe the $scientologists thought Belgium was too small to buy off?
2012-12-30 08:35:22 AM
3 votes:

BSABSVR: RobertBruce: Is there any claim against them that can't be used against Catholicism?

The Catholic Church does not force you to unperson your lapsed Catholic friends and relatives.


Up until the 1960s, the Catholic church was at the center of social life in many small European communities (and Quebec, too!). Due to the "sacrament" of confession, plus they were considered the "go-to" people for any "councelling" (such as a girl getting "into trouble") the priest pretty much know what was going on behind closed doors and this gave them a lot of power over their flock. Excommunication has a real impact back then.

This power has obviously declined as people in the western nations are becoming wise to the goings-on, but the RCC is now concentrating on gaining a foothold the developing world where there are few social services, and they are not afraid to flex their muscle in this regard, damn the bad publicity.
This story from Brazil where this doctor was excommunicated by the RC church for performing an emergency abortion ON A 9-YEAR OLD CHILD who was raped demonstrates this very well..
http://thinkprogress.org/health/2012/05/25/490171/brazil-excommunica ti on-for-abortion/?mobile=nc

No respect is deserved for this ass-holery. One should not care how "devout" these people are - It's all a power grab-nothing more. Nothing "holy" or "good" about it. None of the so-called "good works" they do compensates for this.
Anyone who consciously supports the RC church with knowledge of this disgusting behavior is complicit in this evil.
2012-12-30 08:20:07 AM
3 votes:
Now if we can sic 'em on the cult of Amway.
2012-12-30 08:03:34 AM
3 votes:
You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion.

- L Ron Hubbard
2012-12-30 07:55:11 AM
3 votes:

Wolf892: I'd love to see scientology go, but not before I hear a fairly educated member of the church (who isn't on the payroll) explain the mythology of xenu, the ghosts, and the e-meter, all with a straight face. The stuff is just retarded and I can't believe anyone would go for it.

And on a thread jack, I know I'm a filthy fark liter but has anyone else noticed that they've really throttled back the number of new links being uploaded? When I started visiting this website a few years back I could read the page of web links, hit the refresh and have ten new links to look at. Now it seems like you can walk away from the computer for ten or so hours, come back and there's only (if you are lucky) one or two new links.

This doesn't compute because when you try to link an article, the process tells youu that they got so many links that they are almost never going to greenlight yours...

My theory is that for liters it is throttled back to get us to pay the 5 bucks to have total fark and access to all the submitted links.


seems to me they are using quite a few brainwashing techniques...  sleep deprivation, starvation, etc... and you pay them for the privilege.   while they brainwash you, they get your money, and god forbid you should break the brainwashing... you get to serve on the good ship torture (Freewinds) where you do hard labor while barely being fed and sleep deprived and at the same time berated into submission... if... after some months/years you come back to the fold, then you may get to leave the ship for a "normal" scientology life again... if not, you end up like Lisa McPhereson, or Noah Lottick...

Here is a list of famous ones.
2012-12-30 07:38:01 AM
3 votes:

F22raptom: its 2013 for farks sake, why is shiat like this still around? why are people still that farking stupid? god farking dam it to science


i54.tinypic.com
2012-12-30 07:36:11 AM
3 votes:

RobertBruce: Is there any claim against them that can't be used against Catholicism?


Yes and lots of them.
2012-12-30 07:07:19 AM
3 votes:
I'd love to see scientology go, but not before I hear a fairly educated member of the church (who isn't on the payroll) explain the mythology of xenu, the ghosts, and the e-meter, all with a straight face. The stuff is just retarded and I can't believe anyone would go for it.

And on a thread jack, I know I'm a filthy fark liter but has anyone else noticed that they've really throttled back the number of new links being uploaded? When I started visiting this website a few years back I could read the page of web links, hit the refresh and have ten new links to look at. Now it seems like you can walk away from the computer for ten or so hours, come back and there's only (if you are lucky) one or two new links.

This doesn't compute because when you try to link an article, the process tells youu that they got so many links that they are almost never going to greenlight yours...

My theory is that for liters it is throttled back to get us to pay the 5 bucks to have total fark and access to all the submitted links.
2012-12-30 03:37:34 AM
3 votes:

MadSkillz: BSABSVR: RobertBruce: Is there any claim against them that can't be used against Catholicism?

The Catholic Church does not force you to unperson your lapsed Catholic friends and relatives.

Note that the Jehova's Witnesses pretty much force you to unfriend anyone who leaves. And your family that isn't in the church.


Not true, maybe at one time, but never seen that in my lifetime.

Source: Raised as a Jehovah's Witness.
2012-12-30 03:02:42 PM
2 votes:

HindiDiscoMonster: Since this article came up I decided to do some research into exactly what Scientology is and maybe what it's supposed to be, and after watching the Ted Koppel interview with Miscavidge, it appears to me at least that Scientology follows a sort of Buddhist/Taoist type of faith where introspection is clarity of mind/soul is the goal except with those faiths you do these things on your own and in Scientology you are guided by one or more individuals during those audit/clearing sessions.  I think that is what it was meant to be probably, but of course what it really is reminds me more of the Italian Mafia than anything beneficial.  Kind of a shame really, because there is merit to self-awareness and introspection, I just don't believe that it has any basis in spirituality.  I believe that by assessing oneself, you can achieve a clearer state of mind from a psychological perspective, and perhaps function better as an individual and in society, and to that end, I believe that meditation is a fantastic tool to achieve that.  I also believe that the "Church" of Scientology is little more than a Mafia organization with an outer coating of sugar (for recruitment) that once it has you, it has you for life unless you are willing to deal with the very real repercussions of leaving.


The way the cult "guides" their "adherents" toward "self-awareness and introspection" is very similar to how some LEOs "get" "criminals" to "confess".

/All out of quotation marks.
2012-12-30 11:02:54 AM
2 votes:
farm4.staticflickr.com
2012-12-30 10:51:45 AM
2 votes:

FlashHarry: we make fun of scientology, but there is no fundamental difference between its mythology and that of christianity, judaism or islam - or any religion that involves the supernatural, for that matter. what's more ridiculous, the xenu-spaceship-volcanoes thing or mary being raped by an invisible sky wizard, giving birth to a future zombie-god (who is actually the same entity who raped her)? the only real difference is the age of the religion and the number of adherents.

so when you make fun of scientology or mormonism or whatever "funny" or "weird" religion... remember that yours may be just as funny or weird.


Only one of these sues people for telling outsiders about their funny beliefs.
2012-12-30 09:55:01 AM
2 votes:

KeelingLovesCornholes: Scientology has "killed" hundreds of thousands more.


And Islam and Christianity have killed, no quotation marks, many more than that every single time they have a tiff. Even Buddhism gets into the wetwork from time to time, although it's usually suicide rituals. Let's not even talk about the African cults that still use human sacrifice and body parts or the South and Central American religions of old. How many children does Scientology sacrifice and mummify on the mountaintops each year? I'm guessing it's fewer than the Inca did.

They're basically just a mob running an extortion racket under the guise of the church Hubbard made. The OGs who drop out all say the same thing: It's not like it used to be. Yes they steal your family away, yes you have to sign a billion year contract, yes it's run very controlling; but even their worst sins aren't cutting out children's hearts and eating them or poisoning whole villages to death at gunpoint. Scientology is bad with a lower case b. It would be nice to see them lose a court case, but pretending like they're the worst thing ever as opposed to just n00b religion being run by mobsters is disingenuous. There's real evil in this world. Scientology barely blips the meter.
2012-12-30 09:34:10 AM
2 votes:

starsrift: Karac: RobertBruce: Is there any claim against them that can't be used against Catholicism?

The Pope never broke into the IRS.

You just have to go back a few centuries, but the analogue is there.


The Pope was the IRS.
2012-12-30 09:26:50 AM
2 votes:

doglover: KeelingLovesCornholes: A "bit cultish"? Wow, I'd hate to see your idea of really cultish.

Jonestown circa 600+ dead bodies. That's cultish.

Scientology is more like an idealistic little celebrity religion that's be co-opted by the mob.


So your threshold is how many people they have killed? Scientology has "killed" hundreds of thousands more. As a member of this cult you become dead to your family of non-members, dead to your profession, dead to society, and dead to freedom of thought and free will. So if that's your criteria then yea, it's a cult of the highest order.

/uncle in law got out, watched him be hounded for years, had to leave his wife and some of his kids behind. They're not allowed to speak to him.
2012-12-30 09:26:23 AM
2 votes:
It's simple, folks. If you need an organization to tell you how to think--whether Scientology, the Catholic Church, Marxism, Ayn Rand, PETA, some militant atheist organization--you're a brain-dead zombie in my book.

Hell, I don't even like to call myself a Freethinker because I don't even want to be associated with the various Freethought organizations that have existed through the years. I will always be a member of the Church of Farking Thinking for Myself Already...
2012-12-30 08:41:35 AM
2 votes:
AFAIK Scientology is already banned in Greece. What will it change if they will be banned in a second country?
2012-12-30 08:25:24 AM
2 votes:

RedPhoenix122: MadSkillz: BSABSVR: RobertBruce: Is there any claim against them that can't be used against Catholicism?

The Catholic Church does not force you to unperson your lapsed Catholic friends and relatives.

Note that the Jehova's Witnesses pretty much force you to unfriend anyone who leaves. And your family that isn't in the church.

Not true, maybe at one time, but never seen that in my lifetime.

Source: Raised as a Jehovah's Witness.


I'm going to add my vote on the 'shunned' side. I am 42, was raised as a JW and left the church as a teenager. I was disassociated (I was never baptized) and my family promptly cut all ties. Until this year, I spoke to them maybe three or four times in the last 25 years.

They've come out of the woodwork this year and I can't help but be cynical about it: my daughters are now teenagers and perhaps they think that, if Satan has claimed my heart, maybe they can score two more for Jehovah by bringing them into the church. Over my dead body.

I'm guessing some of you had reasonably tolerant families who placed love over dogma. I'm glad for you, but in many cases - even today - that's not the way it works in a JW family.
2012-12-30 08:08:15 AM
2 votes:

dryknife: You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion.

- L Ron Hubbard


Well fark him and all his clones.
/lulz
2012-12-30 07:46:12 AM
2 votes:

doglover: thisispete: RobertBruce: Is there any claim against them that can't be used against Catholicism?

The biggest difference between a cult and a genuine religion is that a genuine religion is open about its beliefs. There's no esoteric knowledge, no secret initiation. No mysteries. No levels of membership of the faith. Anyone can come along to a service and see what's going on. Anyone can look up the Catholic Catechism or read the Bible. They might disagree with the Church's religious position, but it's easy to find out what its position is. Yes, they do pass around a collection plate for tithes - but the how much and whether you give money at all is entirely voluntary. And all you have to do to leave is quit going. There's no de-registration process. You don't write the Pope to say "I no longer wish to be Catholic" and there's no sanction against you for leaving.

If only that were true.

First off, there's esoteric knowledge and levels of membership in ALL religions. That's why Catholics even have the Pope is because he's the highest ranking member of the Church, all members of which outrank the laypeople. I'm pretty sure you also lose friends and family if you get excommunicated. Not quite the same as leaving the church, but it's a special kick-out process with consequences.

Then there's things like Buddhism where it's self limiting. If you don't meditate, you don't advance because... well you can't. No sit ups, no abs. No meditation, no wisdom. So the levels of involvement are almost cast in stone. No mikabozu( 3 day monk) is gonna get very far.


you really don't see a difference between a cult like scientology and a religion like catholocism?

systematic active destruction of your life if you leave vs meh, he isn't catholic anymore

seriously?
2012-12-30 07:45:51 AM
2 votes:

FlashHarry: we make fun of scientology, but there is no fundamental difference between its mythology and that of christianity, judaism or islam - or any religion that involves the supernatural, for that matter. what's more ridiculous, the xenu-spaceship-volcanoes thing or mary being raped by an invisible sky wizard, giving birth to a future zombie-god (who is actually the same entity who raped her)? the only real difference is the age of the religion and the number of adherents.

so when you make fun of scientology or mormonism or whatever "funny" or "weird" religion...

remember that yours may be just as funny or weird.

Huh. And this whole time I thought the very common sense "don't be an asshole, especially not in the name of the gods and godesses" wasn't funny or weird, even though it is part of my religion. Especially since we do not have any sort of central authority or dogma, just a sense of honor and some loose guidelines about how one should behave to be a decent human being.

It's not religion that is the problem. It's people.
2012-12-30 07:45:03 AM
2 votes:
Good,couldn't happen to a nicer "religion".
2012-12-30 07:36:44 AM
2 votes:

RobertBruce: Is there any claim against them that can't be used against Catholicism?


never seen the good ship SS Pope...
2012-12-30 07:32:59 AM
2 votes:

MadSkillz: BSABSVR: RobertBruce: Is there any claim against them that can't be used against Catholicism?

The Catholic Church does not force you to unperson your lapsed Catholic friends and relatives.

Note that the Jehova's Witnesses pretty much force you to unfriend anyone who leaves. And your family that isn't in the church.


Nuh-uh! My sister & bro-in-law are Witnesses and I'm very welcome indeed in their home. I stayed there for a few months during a transition between living situations, in fact.

/Not a Witness myself.
2012-12-30 07:29:04 AM
2 votes:

doglover: thisispete: But a religion doesn't say you achieve enlightenment or have stronger faith or have an easier path to heaven if you're a member of the clergy rather than the laity. In fact, it's customary to call the pope a "first among equals". There's no presumption that God would look more kindly on someone who has taken holy orders than on other members of the faith. As for excommunication, it's not banishment, the effect of it is that a person cannot partake in the sacraments, i.e. receive communion. It serves as a call for reconciliation and an excommunicated person on receiving absolution is welcome to resume full participation in the faith. The Catholic Encyclopedia has a full rundown on it..

Cool. But that's 2012 and only applies to Catholicism. Religion is a big word. Ever hear of a Vestal Virgin? They had secrets and if they lost their "qualification" they were buried alive. Scientology has become a bit cultish, but buried alive?

You can't just wrap all religions up in a blanket word because there's a lot of them out there now and there's been many and more historically. They're often different and change over time. There's been some chapters even in Christianity that make Scientologists look downright sane.


A "bit cultish"? Wow, I'd hate to see your idea of really cultish.
2012-12-30 03:48:44 AM
2 votes:
What is the U.S. waiting for?
2012-12-30 02:40:12 AM
2 votes:

BSABSVR: RobertBruce: Is there any claim against them that can't be used against Catholicism?

The Catholic Church does not force you to unperson your lapsed Catholic friends and relatives.


Note that the Jehova's Witnesses pretty much force you to unfriend anyone who leaves. And your family that isn't in the church.
2012-12-29 11:58:42 PM
2 votes:
"In the 1930s, it was the Jews. Today it is the Scientologists,"

You know who else doesn't like Scientologists?
2012-12-29 11:56:53 PM
2 votes:
www.nzhistory.net.nz
2012-12-30 08:55:39 PM
1 votes:

MadSkillz: BSABSVR: RobertBruce: Is there any claim against them that can't be used against Catholicism?

The Catholic Church does not force you to unperson your lapsed Catholic friends and relatives.

Note that the Jehovah's Witnesses pretty much force you to unfriend anyone who leaves. And your family that isn't in the church.


They don't actual "force" you, but it's highly frowned upon to associate with disfellowedshipped JW's, even if they are family members. Associating with "apostates" (ex JW's that speak against the religion), can get you disfellowedshipped.

/raised in the JW faith
//quit 15 years ago
///never going back
2012-12-30 03:34:26 PM
1 votes:

Sneakytoes: One could just go to a cognitive psychologist and save a lot of money and hassle.


unless of course they commit you... then there may be a bit more hassle  :)
2012-12-30 03:07:25 PM
1 votes:
One could just go to a cognitive psychologist and save a lot of money and hassle.
2012-12-30 02:53:07 PM
1 votes:

Nemo's Brother: This will not make the rich liberal elites in Hollywood very happy.


Mark my words: Tom Cruise will be in Belgium within a year to make a movie where he plays some Belgian hero.

/$cientology is a cult and calling it a criminal organization is one step closer to admitting it isn't a religion.
2012-12-30 02:28:30 PM
1 votes:

RedPhoenix122: MadSkillz: BSABSVR: RobertBruce: Is there any claim against them that can't be used against Catholicism?

The Catholic Church does not force you to unperson your lapsed Catholic friends and relatives.

Note that the Jehova's Witnesses pretty much force you to unfriend anyone who leaves. And your family that isn't in the church.

Not true, maybe at one time, but never seen that in my lifetime.

Source: Raised as a Jehovah's Witness.


Seen in my lifetime, though. 1988, specifically. So if you're less than 24, you may still be right.

One of the things that drove my now sister-in-law away from the Witnesses was how they treated a friend of hers who they had shunned. She got busted for continuing to talk to him and not generally treating him like shiat. Then she started dating my brother, not a Witness, and that sealed the deal and got her shunned. Her mother wised up and left them because otherwise she wouldn't be able to talk to someone within her own house.
2012-12-30 12:19:06 PM
1 votes:

trappedspirit: A Shambling Mound: TheOther: Western religion begins with a guy thinking he is supposed to kill his son, but gets to cut off the end of his dick instead.

You got anything wackier than that?

That depends. Does a space alien piling people up around volcanoes so he could nuke them strike you as more or less wacky?

Well, you also have to look at angels having sex with humans, a guy who was strong as long as his hair was long, sticks turning into snakes, god talking through a burning bush, people turning into a column of salt, raising the dead, a plague of toads, and walking on water. Among some other knickknacks.

But as far as space aliens go, I feel it's highly probable that other intelligent life exists in the universe. Hopefully they will be intelligent enough to realize that THEY are the aliens and not the other way around.


If somebody believed that a red chair in his house was actually a red fire-breathing dragon, we'd rightly classify him as being schizophrenic. But what about the majority of people who have some sort of belief in invisible gods and other stuff whose existence can't be proven empirically? By that definition, most humans are delusional. What's weirder is that, if I look up to the sky and see nothing but sky (and not some old man with a beard), I'm the one who's considered to be wacked out and delusional...
2012-12-30 11:57:23 AM
1 votes:

Thunderboy:
My attempts to convince you? I don't care one whit about you or what you think. You're just another nobody who said something unintelligent on the internet and got called out on it, and is now furiously backtracking. And how would my non-attempt "defiantly" push you? Are you trying to say "definitely?" Diagram those sentences first, Chief!


You sound butt-hurty, Chief...
2012-12-30 11:39:21 AM
1 votes:

LargeCanine: I could get rid of Scientology with one act: Make them pay taxes.


I have an interesting proposal: the religion that can prove empirically that it is the One True Faith gets tax-free status. The others get taxed and if they grumble about it, then threaten to throw them in prison for practicing religious fraud.

Seriously, though, we'll have cults for as long as we have stupid and gullible people. Even if we threw all the Scientologists into a volcano--and that includes Tom Snooze and John Revolta--and nuked the hell out of them with thermonuclear warheads, it'll be about 3 minutes and 21 seconds before Scientology is replaced be an even more stupid and contrived faith. Hell, there's plenty of people in Utah who haven't caught on to the fact yet that Joseph Smith was a con man and child molester...
2012-12-30 11:38:01 AM
1 votes:

RedPhoenix122: MadSkillz: BSABSVR: RobertBruce: Is there any claim against them that can't be used against Catholicism?

The Catholic Church does not force you to unperson your lapsed Catholic friends and relatives.

Note that the Jehova's Witnesses pretty much force you to unfriend anyone who leaves. And your family that isn't in the church.

Not true, maybe at one time, but never seen that in my lifetime.

Source: Raised as a Jehovah's Witness.



I was raised as a JW myself unfortunately. There is a line most people who have never been involved with them don't know about when it comes to who is 'unfriended' and who isn't. That, of course, is the official word of the organization. If someone has been disfellowshipped, then yes I have personally witnessed the entire congregation stop speaking to them or even acknowledging their existence. If someone simply 'falls away' from the 'truth', then it is more subtle. The brothers and sisters of the congregation want to keep communication open to encourage the return to the fold, but you will see some distance and less social interaction. The longer a person stays away from the Kingdom Hall the wider that distance gets. After a few years away, any members you run into who recognize you will be polite and invariably manage to ask with varying levels of tact whether you have any involvement with the Jehovah's Witnesses. If you don't, the conversation will generally be pleasant and brief.

Of course, anything said here is just what I witnessed until I escaped at 16. That was almost 20 years ago, so maybe things have changed. I don't have any desire to get close enough to that massive pile of crazy to find out.
2012-12-30 11:34:34 AM
1 votes:
'Nother random thought...

I was flying home from a gig in Manhattan a few months ago and, after a freaking 8-hour wait in Newark, the Dullest Airport in the World, ended up sitting next to an evangelist.

He was polite, but he basically brought out all the heavy artillery of the Christian witness. The Turn or Burn Argument (really, a threat), Pascal's Wager, C.S. Lewis' Trilemma (just a false 'trichotomy' that forces you to say that Jesus was insane), and the whole shootin' match. Since I was in Campus Crusade for Christ when I was a stupid college student, I pretty much knew the routine and soundly (and politely) refuted him. Really, a lot of religion is just simply somebody trying to mentally overpower somebody else. I was in good spirits at the end of the flight and wished him and his wife a safe ride home, and he looked a bit disheveled as if he had gone a few rounds against Tyson...
2012-12-30 11:11:13 AM
1 votes:

Farking Canuck: It is extremely common on fark for the religious to demonize atheists. I always have to ask these people "If you have to argue your position with blatant lies ... what does it say about your position?".


Considering how much bullshiat you've posted about religion in previous threads, I'd love to ask you that question, actually.

When it comes to religion in general and atheism, you are the least intellectually honest poster on Fark I know of.

(The "in general" part is important because there are a few farkers who have a thing for Islam in particular who outdo you.)
2012-12-30 11:06:27 AM
1 votes:

Skirl Hutsenreiter: FlashHarry: we make fun of scientology, but there is no fundamental difference between its mythology and that of christianity, judaism or islam - or any religion that involves the supernatural, for that matter. what's more ridiculous, the xenu-spaceship-volcanoes thing or mary being raped by an invisible sky wizard, giving birth to a future zombie-god (who is actually the same entity who raped her)? the only real difference is the age of the religion and the number of adherents.

so when you make fun of scientology or mormonism or whatever "funny" or "weird" religion... remember that yours may be just as funny or weird.

Only one of these sues people for telling outsiders about their funny beliefs.


Only one of these practices cannibalism by literally eating the body and blood of its founder.*

*If you believe the BS metaphysical arguments of the Catholic Church that the wafer and wine are LITERALLY flesh and blood, then Catholics are LITERALLY practicing cannibalism which is probably against the law in most jurisdictions outside of Ooga Booga Island.
2012-12-30 10:11:57 AM
1 votes:
Western religion begins with a guy thinking he is supposed to kill his son, but gets to cut off the end of his dick instead.

You got anything wackier than that?
2012-12-30 10:07:09 AM
1 votes:
Forgot to mention this but I did work a domino-tumbling gig in Belgium back in 2007. The gig was for a cell-phone commercial and we had a domino chain running through a building.

I like the Belgians a lot. They're a smart, progressive people and Belgium has legalized prostitution and is close to legalizing pot. They're smart enough to see through the mind-fark of $cientology even if the inbred morons in Florida can't. The only thing that sucks about Belgium is that people drive like maniacs there--you can't go for a simple drive across Brussels without getting in a dozen close calls...
2012-12-30 10:06:53 AM
1 votes:

Lsherm: RobertBruce: Is there any claim against them that can't be used against Catholicism?

Catholics don't require money for membership.  At all.


Meanwhile...

www.lds.net

thisispete: RobertBruce: Is there any claim against them that can't be used against Catholicism?

The biggest difference between a cult and a genuine religion is that a genuine religion is open about its beliefs. There's no esoteric knowledge, no secret initiation. No mysteries. No levels of membership of the faith. Anyone can come along to a service and see what's going on. Anyone can look up the Catholic Catechism or read the Bible. They might disagree with the Church's religious position, but it's easy to find out what its position is. Yes, they do pass around a collection plate for tithes - but the how much and whether you give money at all is entirely voluntary. And all you have to do to leave is quit going. There's no de-registration process. You don't write the Pope to say "I no longer wish to be Catholic" and there's no sanction against you for leaving.



Meanwhile....

www.ldschurchtemples.com


/Mormon Temples = Pyriel of the Prophecy series
2012-12-30 09:49:52 AM
1 votes:

dopekitty74:

The word is TENETS.


Well THAT certainly changes the entire argument does it not? But JW's are still teh suxxor

"Is strict avoidance really necessary? Yes for several reasons. ... In other cases, the disfellowshipped relative may be living outside the immediate family circle and home. Although there might be a need for limited contact on some rare occasion to care for a necessary family matter, any such contact should be kept to a minimum."
Keep Yourself in God's Love (2008) pp.207,208
2012-12-30 09:45:36 AM
1 votes:
Every since anonymous destroyed Scientology just about 5 years, it's amazing that there is anyone who is still around.

What? Anonymous failed? So what makes it so certain that Belgium will do any better?

Sounds like certain reporters are getting frantic and overly hopeful.
2012-12-30 09:43:23 AM
1 votes:

Wolf892:

And on a thread jack, I know I'm a filthy fark liter but has anyone else noticed that they've really throttled back the number of new links being uploaded? When I started visiting this website a few years back I could read the page of web links, hit the refresh and have ten new links to look at. Now it seems like you can walk away from the computer for ten or so hours, come back and there's only (if you are lucky) one or two new links.

This doesn't compute because when you try to link an article, the process tells youu that they got so many links that they are almost never going to greenlight yours...

My theory is that for liters it is throttled back to get us to pay the 5 bucks to have total fark and access to all the submitted links.


I've noticed it, too, and the lack of content and old content is why I spend much less time here than I used to and go to places like reddit, etc.
2012-12-30 09:39:53 AM
1 votes:

MaudlinMutantMollusk: Shostie: And as we all know, criminal proceedings in Belgium are binding worldwide. Just like UN resolutions.

They have a Ministry of Sternly Worded Letters too?


Actually we have three, for Sternly Worded Letters in Dutch, French and German. They each get to decide what to put in their letters as long as it doesn't contradict what the European Union decreed. And if it does, we have an entire federal government to argue about it and question the role of the king while at it.

And we have free education and great social security.
2012-12-30 09:39:37 AM
1 votes:

Turbo Cojones: RedPhoenix122: MadSkillz: BSABSVR: RobertBruce: Is there any claim against them that can't be used against Catholicism?

The Catholic Church does not force you to unperson your lapsed Catholic friends and relatives.

Note that the Jehova's Witnesses pretty much force you to unfriend anyone who leaves. And your family that isn't in the church.

Not true, maybe at one time, but never seen that in my lifetime.

Source: Raised as a Jehovah's Witness.

You do not even know what your religion orders you to do. How can you call yourself a JW and actively recruit in field service when you don't know the basic tenants?

To "keep the congregation clean" the Jehovah's Witnesses have a practice called "disfellowshipping" (the rest of the religious world more commonly calls this "shunning"). Simply stated, if the JW organization determines by their religious court process that a baptized member is "wicked" - and the member can only appeal this decision once - then the member will be shunned by all JWs, everywhere. They are treated as though they do not exist. It is quite routine to hear of JW parents shunning their ex-JW children who live outside the home, and never seeing them again, even until their deathbed.

There are two special cases that regulate how much contact is allowed: JW family members who live in the same home and JW business associates. Close family may speak to the ex-JW but only on subjects for which the Watchtower Society holds no opinion. Since the Watchtower Society takes a stand on every possible issue that might be right or wrong, this means in practice that family members will only discuss the weather and the basic activities of daily living but nothing that might relate to spiritual, ethical, or religious matters. Similarly, JW business associates may converse with the ex-JW but it must be strictly limited to business matters.


"don't know the basic tenants"

The word is TENETS.
2012-12-30 09:38:16 AM
1 votes:

starsrift: Karac: RobertBruce: Is there any claim against them that can't be used against Catholicism?

The Pope never broke into the IRS.

You just have to go back a few centuries, but the analogue is there.


The Church did have the forged Donation of Constantine they used to seize land for the Vatican. Again, folks, the Catholic Church is just as much of a mind-control mechanism as the Church of Scientology. Arguing the relative merits of each is like trying to determine if Dalmatian poop tastes better than Chihuahua poop, or the relative merits of a punch in the guts vs. a kick in the ass...
2012-12-30 09:33:30 AM
1 votes:

RedPhoenix122: MadSkillz: BSABSVR: RobertBruce: Is there any claim against them that can't be used against Catholicism?

The Catholic Church does not force you to unperson your lapsed Catholic friends and relatives.
Note that the Jehova's Witnesses pretty much force you to unfriend anyone who leaves. And your family that isn't in the church.
Not true, maybe at one time, but never seen that in my lifetime.
Source: Raised as a Jehovah's Witness.


You are not supposed to sleep during the K.H. meetings my friend! And why are you on Fark anyway? Don't you know this is bad association? A real JW would never be here, and I hate it when the JWs are in such a state of cognitive dissonance that they refuse to accept what the WatchTower puts in black and white nearly every month.

Here's a brief example among hundreds of what the Governing Body has to say on the subject:

"Consider just one example of the good that can come when a family loyally upholds Jehovah's decree not to associate with disfellowshipped relatives. A young man had been disfellowshipped for over ten years, during which time his father, mother, and four brothers "quit mixing in company" with him. At times, he tried to involve himself in their activities, but to their credit, each member of the family was steadfast in not having any contact with him. After he was reinstated, he said that he always missed the association with his family, especially at night when he was alone. But, he admitted, had the family associated with him even a little, that small dose would have satisfied him. However, because he did not receive even the slightest communication from any of his family, the burning desire to be with them became one motivating factor in his restoring his relationship with Jehovah." SOURCE: Watchtower 2012 Apr 15 p.12
2012-12-30 09:31:49 AM
1 votes:
Various planets united into a very vast civilization which has come forward up through the last 200,000 years, formed out of the fragments of earlier civilizations. In the last 10,000 years they have gone on with a sort of decadent kicked-in-the-head civilization that contains automobiles, business suits, fedora hats, telephones, spaceships - a civilization which looks almost an exact duplicate but is worse off than the current US civilization.
2012-12-30 09:28:17 AM
1 votes:

iq_in_binary: Crudbucket: About damn time the Belgians did something worthwhile. You can't keep riding that waffle forever.

John Moses Browning would like to have a word with you.


John Moses Browning was born in America. He father made guns, he made guns, and he only outsourced his business to Belgium to make more money. He's as American as you can get.
2012-12-30 09:24:19 AM
1 votes:

RedPhoenix122: MadSkillz: BSABSVR: RobertBruce: Is there any claim against them that can't be used against Catholicism?

The Catholic Church does not force you to unperson your lapsed Catholic friends and relatives.

Note that the Jehova's Witnesses pretty much force you to unfriend anyone who leaves. And your family that isn't in the church.

Not true, maybe at one time, but never seen that in my lifetime.

Source: Raised as a Jehovah's Witness.


You do not even know what your religion orders you to do. How can you call yourself a JW and actively recruit in field service when you don't know the basic tenants?

To "keep the congregation clean" the Jehovah's Witnesses have a practice called "disfellowshipping" (the rest of the religious world more commonly calls this "shunning"). Simply stated, if the JW organization determines by their religious court process that a baptized member is "wicked" - and the member can only appeal this decision once - then the member will be shunned by all JWs, everywhere. They are treated as though they do not exist. It is quite routine to hear of JW parents shunning their ex-JW children who live outside the home, and never seeing them again, even until their deathbed.

There are two special cases that regulate how much contact is allowed: JW family members who live in the same home and JW business associates. Close family may speak to the ex-JW but only on subjects for which the Watchtower Society holds no opinion. Since the Watchtower Society takes a stand on every possible issue that might be right or wrong, this means in practice that family members will only discuss the weather and the basic activities of daily living but nothing that might relate to spiritual, ethical, or religious matters. Similarly, JW business associates may converse with the ex-JW but it must be strictly limited to business matters.
2012-12-30 09:23:15 AM
1 votes:
Scientology isn't a religion. It's an alternative medicine scam.
2012-12-30 09:22:40 AM
1 votes:

VoodooTaco: Is it any more retarded than believing in Jesus or Budha?

Yes. Its MUCH MUCH more retarded.


Yup. Ancient religions are incredibly vague today because what they knew at the time was effectively nothing. Scientology, as far as we know about Xenu, is quite detailed, because it was written recently by a bad science fiction author. Which means we can say we know for certain that more of the story is complete BS.

Then there's the difference between how you know it's working. For Jebus, all you do is pray, and if something good happens, you win. For Xenu, you spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to get told about ghosts in your brain and... I don't think they ever actually do anything about them. They just ask for ever more money.
2012-12-30 08:42:59 AM
1 votes:
What Scientologists Actually Believe

markhumphrys.com


Link

Is it any more retarded than believing in Jesus or Budha?

Yes. Its MUCH MUCH more retarded.
2012-12-30 08:42:32 AM
1 votes:

doglover: HindiDiscoMonster: doglover: KeelingLovesCornholes: A "bit cultish"? Wow, I'd hate to see your idea of really cultish.

Jonestown circa 600+ dead bodies. That's cultish.

Scientology is more like an idealistic little celebrity religion that's be co-opted by the mob.

I think you need to look at the life of someone on board the Freewinds ship... they would make slave galley owners in the Roman era blush.

I seriously doubt that.


as i said... take a look... there is testimony out there, not to mention supporting evidence like bodies.
2012-12-30 08:32:59 AM
1 votes:

vygramul: Jake Havechek: Pretty much anyone who compares Scientology to a mainstream religion does not know what the fark they are talking about.

/atheist
//yes, it is a cult

I never considered atheism a cult.


it is a satanic cult
2012-12-30 08:06:32 AM
1 votes:
Won't anyone think of the Thetans?
2012-12-30 07:38:23 AM
1 votes:
IIRC correctly there seem to be several issues.

Can a religious group

- offer courses in their religious beliefs?
- receive payment for courses?
- offer extended pastoral counseling?
- offer pastoral counseling based on their beliefs?
- receive payment for pastoral counseling?
- promote their religion?
- be self supporting? how?
- exercise their conscience without needing approval from someone else?

then we get into the definition of a religion, grandfather rights for existing religions, etc.

If a religious group does some personal subjective good for someone, is this practicing medicine without a license?

And should we trust a state authority to determine what are appropriate correct and safe thoughts for a member of society to have?
2012-12-30 07:34:14 AM
1 votes:
doglover

If only that were true.

First off, there's esoteric knowledge and levels of membership in ALL religions. That's why Catholics even have the Pope is because he's the highest ranking member of the Church, all members of which outrank the laypeople. I'm pretty sure you also lose friends and family if you get excommunicated. Not quite the same as leaving the church, but it's a special kick-out process with consequences.


For your information the Catholic church IS the laypeople and NObody outranks them
2012-12-30 07:26:42 AM
1 votes:

doglover: Cool. But that's 2012 and only applies to Catholicism. Religion is a big word. Ever hear of a Vestal Virgin? They had secrets and if they lost their "qualification" they were buried alive. Scientology has become a bit cultish, but buried alive?

You can't just wrap all religions up in a blanket word because there's a lot of them out there now and there's been many and more historically. They're often different and change over time. There's been some chapters even in Christianity that make Scientologists look downright sane.


I'm not using the term "cult" to mean "a religion I don't like", it relates to how much scrutiny an outsider can subject it to and the freedom an adherent has to leave. The agency of the individual in their own spiritual development.
2012-12-30 07:25:12 AM
1 votes:

ciberido: Crudbucket: About damn time the Belgians did something worthwhile. You can't keep riding that waffle forever.

Miserable fat Belgian bastards.


4.bp.blogspot.com
cdn01.dailycaller.com
collecting.wdfiles.com

Not for this gunsmith, no siree.
2012-12-30 07:23:20 AM
1 votes:
So does this mean it's not a dirty word anymore?
/RIP Douglas Adams
2012-12-30 07:14:57 AM
1 votes:

Crudbucket: About damn time the Belgians did something worthwhile. You can't keep riding that waffle forever.


John Moses Browning would like to have a word with you.
2012-12-30 04:25:34 AM
1 votes:

RedPhoenix122: MadSkillz: BSABSVR: RobertBruce: Is there any claim against them that can't be used against Catholicism?

The Catholic Church does not force you to unperson your lapsed Catholic friends and relatives.

Note that the Jehova's Witnesses pretty much force you to unfriend anyone who leaves. And your family that isn't in the church.

Not true, maybe at one time, but never seen that in my lifetime.

Source: Raised as a Jehovah's Witness.


I'm going off of stories collected from other people, which may be biased. It's possible that in their particular sect/group/district/church that there was pressure to avoid being friends with those outside of the faith.  I inappropriately passed as truth something that was heresay and unproven, and therefore invalid.  Therefore, I apologize.

Are you a current JW? If so, does your religion or religious leader in your 'kingdom hall' or whatever your particular church is called discourage people in the religion from having friends who are not JWs? If you are no longer a JW, while you were a JW, was there a discouragement from forming friendships with people outside of your group?
2012-12-30 04:06:50 AM
1 votes:
format.aaschool.ac.uk
2012-12-30 02:33:35 AM
1 votes:

BSABSVR: RobertBruce: Is there any claim against them that can't be used against Catholicism?

The Catholic Church does not force you to unperson your lapsed Catholic friends and relatives.


As far as we know Scientology isn't the world's largest pedophile support network.

I'm calling this one a tie.
2012-12-30 12:06:02 AM
1 votes:
img805.imageshack.us

fark them in their stupid asses...
2012-12-29 11:59:49 PM
1 votes:
The church of Scientology -- which is not recognized as a faith in Belgium -- and several of its top-ranking members face charges including extortion, fraud, illegal practice of medicine and violation of privacy laws, according to Flanders News.

a.abcnews.com
2012-12-29 11:29:10 PM
1 votes:
Is there any claim against them that can't be used against Catholicism?
2012-12-29 10:57:57 PM
1 votes:

MaudlinMutantMollusk: Shostie: And as we all know, criminal proceedings in Belgium are binding worldwide. Just like UN resolutions.

They have a Ministry of Sternly Worded Letters too?


Right next door to the Institute for Potato Frying Materials and Technology.
2012-12-29 10:50:21 PM
1 votes:

Shostie: And as we all know, criminal proceedings in Belgium are binding worldwide. Just like UN resolutions.


They have a Ministry of Sternly Worded Letters too?
2012-12-29 10:48:16 PM
1 votes:
And as we all know, criminal proceedings in Belgium are binding worldwide. Just like UN resolutions.
2012-12-29 10:46:29 PM
1 votes:
That's using your little grey cells!
 
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