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(Digital Spy)   Christopher Nolan says that adapting Superman is more difficult than adapting Batman, presumably because Superman is so damned boring   (digitalspy.com ) divider line
    More: Obvious, Man of Steel, Dark Knight, Superman, Batman, Michael Caine, John McClane, Christian Bale, Zack Snyder  
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3425 clicks; posted to Entertainment » on 29 Dec 2012 at 4:30 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-29 01:07:50 PM  
Superman is boring. On the other hand, I thought Batman was boring. (From the comics,that is.)
 
2012-12-29 01:13:44 PM  
Superman is lame.
 
2012-12-29 01:25:04 PM  
I hope Superman talks with a gravely voice, too.
 
2012-12-29 01:34:15 PM  
Superman is not boring, Superman is not lame, it just requires a certain degree of talent to write for that type of character that most comics writers don't have.
 
2012-12-29 01:39:00 PM  
It is hard to come up with a plausible antagonist when the protagonist can:
A: Move so fast he can draw spewing dongs over the bad guy's face before the bad guy can even start his "I'm going to take over the world" speech.
B: Go back in time and give the bad guy's grandfather a case of condoms AND a cock punch so hard it changes the tides.
C: Simply shove the entire planet into the sun if he gets bored.
 
2012-12-29 01:44:46 PM  
Batman is easier because of the "dark" past.  It's the same reason that goth poetry is easy.  Selling misery/darkness is always easier than selling hope.
 
2012-12-29 01:58:44 PM  

CPT Ethanolic: Batman is easier because of the "dark" past.  It's the same reason that goth poetry is easy.  Selling misery/darkness is always easier than selling hope.


Never thought of it that way, good analogy.
 
2012-12-29 02:03:06 PM  
That's because Nolan is a hack.

His dialog is either exposition or Epic Proclamation, characters are one dimensional, everything has to be dark and brooding, there is zero humor, and everything goes on way too long.
 
2012-12-29 02:26:34 PM  
www.sidekickcomicsuk.com
 
2012-12-29 02:31:01 PM  
If you look at the history of popular characters, you will find that what made them popular is watered down as they became more mainstream.

Mickey Mouse was a bit of a smart ass prankster. Popeye was a rough and tumble sailor. Superman was a bully who forced his liberal agenda on people. (His first major story was to stop ammunition manufacturers from cintinuing a civil war in South America.)

Superman isn't invunerable, nor is he always strongest. He always had a tendency hit first and ask questions later. In all of his adventures he gets knocked out, hurt, restrained... Etc. just like any other superhero.

But superman cannot be defeated due to normal human achievement. Thats why people find him boring. You can shoot Batman. You can't just shoot Superman.

Its why Superman's adventures involve mad scientist, aliens, and supernatural elements.
 
2012-12-29 02:36:59 PM  
Saw the trailer for this before The Hobbit the other night.

Looked pretty good.

Nolan plus Snyder plus MOS = Win, I'mma thinking.
 
2012-12-29 02:47:11 PM  
I'd want to believe that Nolan's involvement will lead to a decent-if unnecessary- reboot of Superman II. I really, really do.
 
2012-12-29 02:52:56 PM  
Superman is so boring there was a long period where his writer/artist was actually named Boring...
 
2012-12-29 04:12:32 PM  
You know your character is boring when every movie made of him involves the same basic plot - villain uses kryptonite against hero
 
2012-12-29 04:15:32 PM  

CPT Ethanolic: Batman is easier because of the "dark" past.  It's the same reason that goth poetry is easy.  Selling misery/darkness is always easier than selling hope.


Well, that and Batman is human. Technically, anyone can kick his ass, which gives the writers a lot of freedom.

Superman, you're basically stuck with three options:

1. Kryptonite
2. Magic
3. Another super-being.
 
2012-12-29 04:35:26 PM  
Wish they would just make a live action Dark Night Returns already. Only convincing foe for Superman that I've ever seen. John Hamm can finally play Superman. Not sure about Bruce though. Can't imagine someone who looks both like a grizzled crime fighter and a rich playboy. Mickey Rourke could be a convincing Batman, but a horrible Bruce Wayne.
 
2012-12-29 04:39:45 PM  
Maybe it's harder because these stupid comic book characters have been done and redone a bazillion times already. How about trying something original for once?
 
2012-12-29 04:40:58 PM  
Superman is invulnerable to everything so who gives a shiat.
 
2012-12-29 04:41:51 PM  

had98c: Maybe it's harder because these stupid comic book characters have been done and redone a bazillion times already. How about trying something original for once?


Isn't there only like seven different stories ever told? Joseph Campbell wrote about it. Besides, suck a dong
 
2012-12-29 04:45:03 PM  

Champion of the Sun: Can't imagine someone who looks both like a grizzled crime fighter and a rich playboy


Tom Hardy could probably be that guy. In Bronson and other movies he plays what could be the "grizzled crime fighter." then, in movies like Thinker Tailor Soldier Spy and to some extent Inception he somewhat plays more of a suit wearing clean looking guy.
 
2012-12-29 04:46:48 PM  

Farksteron: Champion of the Sun: Can't imagine someone who looks both like a grizzled crime fighter and a rich playboy

Tom Hardy could probably be that guy. In Bronson and other movies he plays what could be the "grizzled crime fighter." then, in movies like Thinker Tailor Soldier Spy and to some extent Inception he somewhat plays more of a suit wearing clean looking guy.


Too young though.
 
2012-12-29 04:47:29 PM  

gopher321: You know your character is boring when every movie made of him involves the same basic plot - villain uses kryptonite against hero


I missed the scene where Zod came after Supes with kryptonite boxing gloves. Is that in the Donner cut?

That aside, you're mostly right. The biggest flaw in Singer's reboot (apart from the whole stalker thing and the Superkid thing and the basic concept of him being a deadbeat dad thing) was that he decided to make Luthor the bad guy again. Superman needs a villain he can hit. Otherwise you're left with a climactic battle between your hero and a land mass.
 
2012-12-29 04:55:23 PM  
upload.wikimedia.org

I'm not a big comics person, but this was one of the best original spins on Superman I've seen in awhile. (I know it's several years old at this point.) I wouldn't mind seeing a movie adaptation, though I'm not sure how that would play in Peoria.
 
2012-12-29 04:56:49 PM  

Champion of the Sun: Farksteron: Champion of the Sun: Can't imagine someone who looks both like a grizzled crime fighter and a rich playboy

Tom Hardy could probably be that guy. In Bronson and other movies he plays what could be the "grizzled crime fighter." then, in movies like Thinker Tailor Soldier Spy and to some extent Inception he somewhat plays more of a suit wearing clean looking guy.

Too young though.


George Clooney? :D
 
2012-12-29 04:56:53 PM  

Mentat: Superman is not boring, Superman is not lame, it just requires a certain degree of talent to write for that type of character that most comics writers don't have.


You're my new hero. :)

/ Fark's Journeyman Supermanologist
 
2012-12-29 04:59:10 PM  
Superman is only boring if you don't understand the story.

Superman is the classic "god in love with a mortal" archetype, so any story about superman must, to work, be about the mortals in his life--not just Lane and Olson always. It has to be about character, about love and sacrifice, to work well as a story. Superman's true weakness isn't kryptonite or magic (yes, magic--it's in the books), it's love. Yet, Hollywood can't seem to make a Superman movie without kryptonite, and I'm getting tired of it. This one, I predict, will be no different.

Stepping back from Superman for a moment, I think any superhero story should not only involve some cool CGI of their powers, sure; but more important is using their powers in new and surprising ways. Show me some thought and creativity behind being a super-powered person. That gets difficult when a hero only has super-strength, flight and heat vision to work with (and a few others, I know). Seeing the comic book Superman shave his beard via heat-visioning his own face in a mirror may make me say, 'wtf is that mirror made of,' but it is a nice start. It's better than the movies have done yet.

Different versions of Superman have had vastly different power levels. Only a few have had the strength to push the planet. I think he is his best when he's fast, but not time-bending fast, and when he's strong, but not planet-shoving strong, etc. And when he's not amnesia-kissing the memories out of people (unless he uses it on Lex Luthor all of a sudden--that I'd pay to see, just for the LOLs).

I don't mind a Superman movie once every fifteen or twenty years or so, maybe even a trilogy if it is of excellent quality, but, seriously, the constant rebooting of well known characters for the big screen is getting old, fast. I know Spider-man's origin story. there was no need to start all over again so damn soon (even if they do Gwen Stacey this time). I just saw a different version of Superman a few years back. Why should I be interested in another one? I would have been more interested in a Wonder Woman or even Captain Marvel movie than another version of Superman. Even a well-done Supergirl would have been a better idea, let alone a slightly more obscure hero.
 
2012-12-29 05:03:11 PM  

Farksteron: George Clooney? :D


Ha, I was gonna say Hardy couldn't do it because he was in a Batman movie, same reason Clooney can't play old Superman. He doesn't have the voice or chin for it anyway.
 
2012-12-29 05:05:12 PM  

Martstar: [upload.wikimedia.org image 250x375]

I'm not a big comics person, but this was one of the best original spins on Superman I've seen in awhile. (I know it's several years old at this point.) I wouldn't mind seeing a movie adaptation, though I'm not sure how that would play in Peoria.


Favorite Superman story EVER.

I love how they handled the other Super Heroes. Green Lantern, Batman, Wonder Woman... it was great. I don't think they could have gone much longer than they did, but that just proves how well it was written; they knew when to stop.
 
2012-12-29 05:09:48 PM  

Mentat: Superman is not boring, Superman is not lame, it just requires a certain degree of talent to write for that type of character that most comics writers don't have.


To a point, yes. But comparatively, there are a LOT of really good Batman graphic novels. Superman has maybe 3 decent ones, none of them amazing (maaaaybe All Star fits the category, but just barely).

No one had written anything close to "Dark Knight Returns" or "Year One" on the Superman side.
 
2012-12-29 05:19:27 PM  

Hebalo: Mentat: Superman is not boring, Superman is not lame, it just requires a certain degree of talent to write for that type of character that most comics writers don't have.

To a point, yes. But comparatively, there are a LOT of really good Batman graphic novels. Superman has maybe 3 decent ones, none of them amazing (maaaaybe All Star fits the category, but just barely).

No one had written anything close to "Dark Knight Returns" or "Year One" on the Superman side.


Batman is a normal (albeit rich) guy who physically worked his ass off to train his body and his mind to be at its peak. It's through his sheer determination that he is able to do what he does.

Superman was simply born on the right planet to have all of his power handed to him.
 
2012-12-29 05:21:11 PM  

AsprinBurn: Superman is the classic "god in love with a mortal" archetype


It's a matter of considerable irony that the people who have most captured the Superman persona isn't DC but Marvel - in their portrayal of Thor. There's a lot of similarities.

When you write a story about Superman, there's one truth that you have to get right or it doesn't work. That truth is that all other superhero books are about what the character does, but Superman stories have to be about who the character is. It isn't about 'what' or 'how', but about 'why' he does what he does.
 
2012-12-29 05:23:00 PM  

AsprinBurn: Superman is only boring if you don't understand the story.

Superman is the classic "god in love with a mortal" archetype, so any story about superman must, to work, be about the mortals in his life--not just Lane and Olson always. It has to be about character, about love and sacrifice, to work well as a story. Superman's true weakness isn't kryptonite or magic (yes, magic--it's in the books), it's love. Yet, Hollywood can't seem to make a Superman movie without kryptonite, and I'm getting tired of it. This one, I predict, will be no different.


You could have that archetype and a more interesting story if Superman wasn't so impervious to everything but kryptonite. Make him super strong like most other super heroes, but dramatically lower the threshold that it takes to kill him so that there is a sense that he's putting his life on the line, that he could die.
 
2012-12-29 05:24:19 PM  
They should have superman vs he man made into a movie just for the sake of it. Not sure who would play he man though.
 
2012-12-29 05:24:51 PM  

Mentat: Superman is not boring, Superman is not lame, it just requires a certain degree of talent to write for that type of character that most comics writers don't have.


Superman is lame. He's a full fledged god. He has no power limitations, has every power, and is completely immune to everything but magic rocks or magic.

Unless we're taking away all the super powers that make the escapism cool, super man is a tits up boring character because he's a GOD. There's no training or difficulty for him to overcome, it's all worthless challenges. And when he DOES have a fight? It's farking super-sayan Dragon Ball Z levels of stupid 'blowing up the sun to power punch' strength. Those characters are tepidly boring to watch because there's no real risk or harm to them, so why care? Especially since he has EVERY super power known to man, and has it better than the premier exemplar of it anyway.
 
2012-12-29 05:26:54 PM  
Superman is terrible.
 
2012-12-29 05:27:44 PM  

kroonermanblack: Superman is lame. He's a full fledged god. He has no power limitations, has every power, and is completely immune to everything but magic rocks or magic.


Because when you read a Batman comic or watch a movie, you're thinking that this could be the time that the caped crusader meets his end, right?
 
2012-12-29 05:30:17 PM  
Just do a live action All-Star Superman. I just saw the animated version and think that it could be done well live action. That being said, I am cautiously optimisitic about this Nolan/Snyder effort.
 
2012-12-29 05:30:27 PM  
Batman has the cool gadgets, the cool car, the cool suit, the tragic past... he is probably my favorite superhero... but he is there along with Superman.

The thing to me is that Superman represents the BEST that humanity could achieve as a moral standpoint. He is potential fully realized. He is a god among men, who could easily just blow shiat to pieces, and crown himself king and rule as he sees fit... but he decides to put his unmeasurable power to serve others. He decides to fight the intergalactic tyrants, and mad scientist and mad gods that want to put the world under their iron fists... and he decides to do it because he feels that is the right thing to do.

I know that it requires a certain degree of actual talent, but how interesting could be the story of a man that is pushed to be darker by enemies increasingly violent and dangerous and a world that keeps telling him that he is dumb and naive? Superman is someone that could see the world growing darker and darker and just stand on his principles and be determinate to be the last beacon of light if that's what is needed. And THAT is boring?

Hell, I'm asking you to do "To Kill a Mockingbird" with Superpowers...

As much as I really like heroes like Batman or Iron Man or anti-heroes like Deadpool or Wolverine, I'm kinda tired of the cliches that come along the dark, brooding and cynical type of character. Superman and Captain America probably aren't the coolest, but they are good men, and those characters are needed too.
 
2012-12-29 05:32:52 PM  

kroonermanblack: Especially since he has EVERY super power known to man, and has it better than the premier exemplar of it anyway.


Flash would like a word.
 
2012-12-29 05:37:30 PM  

DarkPascual: Superman and Captain America probably aren't the coolest, but they are good men, and those characters are needed too.


Yeah, we've lost our way. A little truth justice and the American way would be good right about now.
 
2012-12-29 05:39:58 PM  
For the love of God, just don't make Superman all dark and angsty. I hate how the fanboys have won and now everything has to be dark and serious or else they get their panties in a wad that directors aren't taking their favorite childhood hero/cartoon character seriously enough. Case in point: the persistent hate for the 60s Batman show. But it's a totally legit take on Batman. It was well-written, had good actors, and had a high budget (for its time). The writers knew exactly what they were doing and it works on different levels. It's a hell of a lot better then the dour and sanctimonious Dark Knight Rises and definitely better than the Burton/Schumacher messes of the 90s.

What I'm saying is - keep Superman lighthearted and don't turn him into Space Jesus. Not everything has to be dark and angry.
 
2012-12-29 05:40:19 PM  

Champion of the Sun: DarkPascual: Superman and Captain America probably aren't the coolest, but they are good men, and those characters are needed too.

Yeah, we've lost our way. A little truth justice and the American way would be good right about now.


BTW... what I said was totally from a narrative standpoint... Not being from the USA gives me certain difficulty to approach things the American way...
 
2012-12-29 05:43:21 PM  

DarkPascual: BTW... what I said was totally from a narrative standpoint... Not being from the USA gives me certain difficulty to approach things the American way...


Inside every furriner is an American just waiting to get out. Buy some guns and worship the rich, and you'll be welcomed with open arms. You're white, right?
 
2012-12-29 05:45:06 PM  
The problem with Superman isn't that the only thing that can hurt him is Kryptonite, or that the only memorable bad buy is Lex Luther, the problem is that Truth and Justice are no longer part of the American way.
 
2012-12-29 05:46:22 PM  

DarkPascual: how interesting could be the story of a man that is pushed to be darker by enemies increasingly violent and dangerous and a world that keeps telling him that he is dumb and naive?


They already tested that, in "Superman vs. The Elite". Check it out.

i.imgur.com

When Superman lowers himself to the level of his enemies, it's terrifying.

i.imgur.com

DarkPascual: As much as I really like heroes like Batman or Iron Man or anti-heroes like Deadpool or Wolverine, I'm kinda tired of the cliches that come along the dark, brooding and cynical type of character. Superman and Captain America probably aren't the coolest, but they are good men, and those characters are needed too.


Another guy after my own heart. My favorite comic characters are Supes, Cap and Cyclops (well, pre-2000 cyclops that wasn't destroyed by the writers). I like the good guys. Flawed is easy to write. Being a stand up guy is hard.
 
2012-12-29 05:51:24 PM  

DarkPascual: The thing to me is that Superman represents the BEST that humanity could achieve as a moral standpoint. He is potential fully realized. He is a god among men, who could easily just blow shiat to pieces, and crown himself king and rule as he sees fit... but he decides to put his unmeasurable power to serve others. He decides to fight the intergalactic tyrants, and mad scientist and mad gods that want to put the world under their iron fists... and he decides to do it because he feels that is the right thing to do.


Pretty much all super heroes do this. They either feel morally obligated to help others, or some event in their life compels them to use their powers or fortune for the betterment of mankind. One of the reasons I think Wolverine is such a popular super hero is because he falls outside of this common mold. He's self interested, but allows himself to get caught up in helping good guys fight bad guys (probably a more accurate reflection of how someone with super powers would act).

I know that it requires a certain degree of actual talent, but how interesting could be the story of a man that is pushed to be darker by enemies increasingly violent and dangerous and a world that keeps telling him that he is dumb and naive? Superman is someone that could see the world growing darker and darker and just stand on his principles and be determinate to be the last beacon of light if that's what is needed. And THAT is boring?

Well, this is pretty what Batman is all about. While Batman operates outside of the law, he doesn't resort to walking around with machine guns and killing people. No matter how vicious his enemies are, he sticks to his moral code. And the Nolan films have largely been about that -- that Batman is the "last beacon of light" despite being a vigilantly.

The problem with Superman, is that if there's never any real risk of him dying -- he's not risking his life to save humanity. At most, it disrupts his personal life. And it's hard to feel bad for someone who's omnipotent.
 
2012-12-29 05:52:22 PM  
I actually enjoyed Superman in the DC cartoons, but mostly when Batman is around. They really complement each other well. I have not read enough Superman comics, but that was because I couldn't get into them. However, didn't they just hook up Superman and Wonder Woman to make them more relevant again? Also they did with match.com I guess too. http://mashable.com/2012/08/27/superman-wonder-woman/

Also obligatory: Death and Return of Superman

Sums up Superman.
 
2012-12-29 05:52:24 PM  

Ryker's Peninsula: The problem with Superman isn't that the only thing that can hurt him is Kryptonite, or that the only memorable bad buy is Lex Luther, the problem is that Truth and Justice are no longer part of the American way.


Which is why What's So Funny About Truth, Justice & the American Way? was so good. It tackles that idea head on.

What if Superman played by everyone elses rules?
 
2012-12-29 05:56:02 PM  

velvet_fog: For the love of God, just don't make Superman all dark and angsty. I hate how the fanboys have won and now everything has to be dark and serious or else they get their panties in a wad that directors aren't taking their favorite childhood hero/cartoon character seriously enough. Case in point: the persistent hate for the 60s Batman show. But it's a totally legit take on Batman. It was well-written, had good actors, and had a high budget (for its time). The writers knew exactly what they were doing and it works on different levels. It's a hell of a lot better then the dour and sanctimonious Dark Knight Rises and definitely better than the Burton/Schumacher messes of the 90s.

What I'm saying is - keep Superman lighthearted and don't turn him into Space Jesus. Not everything has to be dark and angry.


Let me help you out here.

The two Richard Donner Superman films hold up so well because they were tongue-in-cheek -- Donner was well aware he was making a film where the hero wore a spandex bodysuit and red cape.

I'd argue that the Iron Man movies have been so popular because they also don't take themselves too seriously, that they don't try to be deep character studies of what makes a super hero tick.
 
2012-12-29 05:57:26 PM  
Well he's got this going for him, which is nice.

pdubyah.files.wordpress.com
 
2012-12-29 06:05:19 PM  
A character with near-godlike powers is only interesting when he's the bad guy, because of the challenge involved in defeating him. Red Son was my favorite Superman story precisely because he was the villain. A misguided and redeemable one, no less, which is the most interesting type. Well, generally, at least... the thought of the Joker having a good side to him makes me nauseous.
 
2012-12-29 06:10:21 PM  

Sgt Otter: CPT Ethanolic: Batman is easier because of the "dark" past.  It's the same reason that goth poetry is easy.  Selling misery/darkness is always easier than selling hope.

Well, that and Batman is human. Technically, anyone can kick his ass, which gives the writers a lot of freedom.

Superman, you're basically stuck with three options:

1. Kryptonite
2. Magic
3. Another super-being.


And when Superman has been brought to the screen (big or little), the writers have never been able to overcome this with any degree of imagination. Their thinking seems to be that nobody will accept magic, another super-being would have to be exactly like Superman, so the only thing they can do is have a normal villain get ahold of some kryptonite somehow. Or else spend endless and ultimately futile efforts trying to unmask Superman and take away his powers some other way.

Superman IS "boring" because he's been set up as pretty much invulnerable and flawless--nothing can hurt him, his backstory gives him no self-doubt or emotional problems, and he seems to exist merely to kick bad-guy ass. Christopher Reeves' Superman actually gave some depth to Clark Kent, made him a geeky nerd; which "Smallville" overused to the nth degree (Superman as emo). But there's no reason a decent writer couldn't rewrite Superman's backstory and give him a few more issues to work with; or else make him less invulnerable, so villains don't keep having to find kryptonite lying all over the place.
 
2012-12-29 06:25:44 PM  

Martstar: [upload.wikimedia.org image 250x375]

I'm not a big comics person, but this was one of the best original spins on Superman I've seen in awhile. (I know it's several years old at this point.) I wouldn't mind seeing a movie adaptation, though I'm not sure how that would play in Peoria.


Jihadi Superman hasn't been done yet?
 
2012-12-29 06:36:09 PM  

PIP_the_TROLL: When Superman lowers himself to the level of his enemies, it's terrifying.


Maybe if you're 12. I realize those DC animated movies are for a younger audience, but I've downloaded them all as hangover fare and that Elite one was by far the worst of the lot.
 
2012-12-29 06:44:15 PM  

Champion of the Sun: DarkPascual: BTW... what I said was totally from a narrative standpoint... Not being from the USA gives me certain difficulty to approach things the American way...

Inside every furriner is an American just waiting to get out. Buy some guns and worship the rich, and you'll be welcomed with open arms. You're white, right?


XD... I like guns, but more for the aesthetic value of them (I mean, the Colt .45 Dragoon is a GORGEOUS piece of machine)... Don't worship the rich (they SHOULD pay bigger taxes), but don't see the issue of rich people living rich lifestyles as long as their fortunes have been made ethically and honestly... Unfortunately, I'm a dirty socialist Latin... so no luck for my brown (if pale by our standards) ass... I do like pro-wrestling and Rocky IV in a non ironic way, does it count? XD

thornhill: The problem with Superman, is that if there's never any real risk of him dying -- he's not risking his life to save humanity. At most, it disrupts his personal life. And it's hard to feel bad for someone who's omnipotent.


I think that if people think that the reason that Superman is boring is the power level, that can be fixed. If it is for the type of character that Supes is, then it's simply not for them.

It's important to give it the right approach and even put him against the right villains (Darkseid, Imperiex, Zod, Doomsday, Brainiac, Mxyzptlk, President Luthor, probably any decent magic user... I think that Green Lantern could take Superman with the right mindset), and even take some liberties with the established canon and lower the power level. Certainly DC has done things to make Superman less invincible. Is still hard to take him out, but not impossible anymore...

And here is the other thing that I feel sometimes is overlooked about Superman... the guy may have the powers of the god and the biology of an alien, but at mind and heart, he is too human... too caring, too eager to do the right thing and too noble for his own good... Batman has stated many times that Supe's greatest weakness is not an irradiated stone, but that he has too much heart.

PIP_the_TROLL: Flawed is easy to write. Being a stand up guy is hard.


One of the reasons why I'm playing a Paladin in my D&D group... too much amoral anti-heroes there, and I always heard about the challenge of play a Paladin (or any Lawful Good character) the right way... BTW, now I have to check Supes vs The Elite, thanks for bring that up!
 
2012-12-29 06:49:53 PM  
 
2012-12-29 06:54:44 PM  
I think its because Superman can't be shoved into a boring idiosyncratic realism. Batman is totally unrealistic, but Nolan would suggest that he can be made more realistic somehow through the same shiat he does in all his movies. This is a man who the dreams of master criminal's totally farking boring. Superman needs to fight wizards and aliens and stuff like that. He needs to actually be a science fiction character in a science fiction story - part of a genre film - rather than what Nolan did, which was try and make all the science fiction characters fit into a crime drama.
 
2012-12-29 06:57:28 PM  
Not a boring Superman story...

i.imgur.com
 
2012-12-29 07:04:58 PM  

Mentat: Superman is not boring, Superman is not lame, it just requires a certain degree of talent to write for that type of character that most comics writers don't have.


and tv writers
and movie writers
and cartoon writers
and novel writers
 
2012-12-29 07:05:12 PM  
That's because someone already did the 'Superman just wants to retire' storyline better than Nolan could.

/No faith in a Nolan Superman after the past two Batman movies
 
2012-12-29 07:05:28 PM  
Superman, you're basically stuck with three options:

1. Kryptonite
2. Magic
3. Another super-being.


Why does everyone seem to forget that in the first movie, Superman was also effectively foiled by the fact that even he could not be in two places at once? And his state of character would not allow him to break a promise even when it endangered his friends? Yes, there was also Kryptonite, but it wasn't the instakill plot device that seemed to be played out in later movies and stories.

There are also other things that can at least slow him down or weaken him without relying on magic or another super-being.

One of the real problems I had with Superman Returns wasn't that Superman was too powerful after returning from space. But that the Lex Luthor that was written in was basically a caricature of the Gene Hackman role, instead of the Crimelord/Mega-Entrepreneur with his own private army and obsession with ridding the world of "the alien" that was better portrayed in the comics and animated series.
 
2012-12-29 07:05:59 PM  

Popcorn Johnny: kroonermanblack: Superman is lame. He's a full fledged god. He has no power limitations, has every power, and is completely immune to everything but magic rocks or magic.

Because when you read a Batman comic or watch a movie, you're thinking that this could be the time that the caped crusader meets his end, right?


No, but he has to work to achieve his goals. There's actual risk to the character conceptually. He can have his back broken, or need to make a gizmo, or do things. Superman? None of that. There's no stress or issue, all he has to do to overcome obstacles? Stop stopping himself a fraction of a bit. That's it.

The character could be cool if he didn't have -every- super power, and didn't have them all at super-omega level strength, etc. Give him restraints and make him mortal instead of a god, and it could be a compelling read while still being super, but as is? Why would I care, he's just going to walk through it effortlessly.
 
2012-12-29 07:07:11 PM  

L.D. Ablo: That's because Nolan is a hack.

His dialog is either exposition or Epic Proclamation, characters are one dimensional, everything has to be dark and brooding, there is zero humor, and everything goes on way too long.


The Dark Knight was hilarious
I loled multiple times on the first viewing

//usually at God
 
2012-12-29 07:20:30 PM  

kroonermanblack: Superman is lame. He's a full fledged god. He has no power limitations, has every power, and is completely immune to everything but magic rocks or magic.

Unless we're taking away all the super powers that make the escapism cool, super man is a tits up boring character because he's a GOD. There's no training or difficulty for him to overcome, it's all worthless challenges. And when he DOES have a fight? It's farking super-sayan Dragon Ball Z levels of stupid 'blowing up the sun to power punch' strength. Those characters are tepidly boring to watch because there's no real risk or harm to them, so why care? Especially since he has EVERY super power known to man, and has it better than the premier exemplar of it anyway.


Imagine for a moment how much concentration is required for Clark Kent to shake someone's hand without crushing it into paste.  Or to kiss Lois without crushing her face.  or opening a car door without ripping it off.  Superman doesn't get an off-day.  He doesn't get to daydream or let his mind wander.  He has to maintain that level of concentration 24/7, even in the midst of battle.  This is a man who can literally crack the planet in half, and yet he chooses not to.  Why?  Because Superman's limits have never been physical, they are moral and ethical.  This is a man who holds himself to a superhuman standard of conduct not simply because he wants to, but because he has to for the safety of everyone around him.  Moreover, he knows that his greatest power is the ability to inspire humanity to greatness, but he has to exercise that power cautiously so that he doesn't instead make humanity feel small and weak in his presence.  It's his greatest strength and his most glaring weakness.  It's how his greatest enemies attack him.  And that's where you find the best stories about Superman.
 
2012-12-29 07:29:21 PM  
Superman is dumb, boring, masoginistic, and awful.

I hate superman x112oro!!!kl3lk3!!lkj1
 
2012-12-29 07:35:57 PM  
If Nolan's Batman movies are any indication, Lois Lane will be the weakest link. She'll be saddled with cringeworthy lines and try entirely too hard to act sexy. If she dies, it will be one of the worst deaths committed to film. Oh, and Maggie Cabbage Face will take over the role once Amy Adams leaves.
 
2012-12-29 07:38:13 PM  
I think that a part of the problem is that to a whole generation, and to a lot of other people, this

scrapetv.com

is Superman.  Christopher Reeve owned that role, and his image has become so closely associated with Superman, that it's hard to get people on the side of a different actor.
 
2012-12-29 07:42:26 PM  
If Superman did exist he would think we were all quite boring. We were essentially born with Super Powers. Born into the 1st world at this time in history, we're better off than 98% of humans who ever existed. Most of us don't use it to help those in need though.

/Off to Starbucks.
 
2012-12-29 07:46:20 PM  

moothemagiccow: Mentat: Superman is not boring, Superman is not lame, it just requires a certain degree of talent to write for that type of character that most comics writers don't have.

and tv writers
and movie writers
and cartoon writers
and novel writers


The first season of Smallville was pretty good, admittedly it got a lot worse as it went on.
The first two Christopher Reeve-Superman movies were good.
The Superman and Justice League/JLU cartoons were awesome.
I can't speak for novels...
 
2012-12-29 07:51:28 PM  

kroonermanblack: No, but he has to work to achieve his goals. There's actual risk to the character conceptually. He can have his back broken, or need to make a gizmo, or do things. Superman? None of that. There's no stress or issue, all he has to do to overcome obstacles? Stop stopping himself a fraction of a bit. That's it.


Superman has suffered all kinds of injuries and has even died.  Sure he comes back from everything, but so does every other superhero out there.
 
2012-12-29 07:58:07 PM  

Popcorn Johnny: kroonermanblack: No, but he has to work to achieve his goals. There's actual risk to the character conceptually. He can have his back broken, or need to make a gizmo, or do things. Superman? None of that. There's no stress or issue, all he has to do to overcome obstacles? Stop stopping himself a fraction of a bit. That's it.

Superman has suffered all kinds of injuries and has even died.  Sure he comes back from everything, but so does every other superhero out there.


More super heroes come back to life thanks to Superman coming back from dead.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PlwDbSYicM
 
2012-12-29 07:59:33 PM  

CPT Ethanolic: Batman is easier because of the "dark" past.  It's the same reason that goth poetry is easy.  Selling misery/darkness is always easier than selling hope.


Good point.

I think people see Superman as boring because he comes off as a Boy Scout - a 2D, goody-two-shoes that can't be or do anything controversial.

But that's just the product if limited imaginations.

First, you *can* make a "heroes' hero" interesting (but it does require a moral position; hard to do in a time where morality is so political, but not impossible).

Second, he's a frkn' ALIEN, so there's tons of fertile ground there.

Third, there's something they always gloss over with Superman: he's supposed to be a genius. It wouldn't be hard to write a story where he's using his mind and power to solve problems (bigger than crooked real estate schemes), and having to deal with those whose corrupt power is threatened by him.

Making Superman interesting means taking chances and taking risks with the story. Sadly his audience may not be amenable to that.
 
2012-12-29 08:01:51 PM  

Shrugging Atlas: Not a boring Superman story...

[i.imgur.com image 398x609]


pretty much this.
 
2012-12-29 08:06:26 PM  

browneye: This man is not boring.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etPYl1OQoqk


Beat me to it...

/ "World of Cardboard" , indeed.
 
2012-12-29 08:12:04 PM  

Mentat: Imagine for a moment how much concentration is required for Clark Kent to shake someone's hand without crushing it into paste. Or to kiss Lois without crushing her face. or opening a car door without ripping it off. Superman doesn't get an off-day. He doesn't get to daydream or let his mind wander. He has to maintain that level of concentration 24/7, even in the midst of battle. This is a man who can literally crack the planet in half, and yet he chooses not to. Why? Because Superman's limits have never been physical, they are moral and ethical. This is a man who holds himself to a superhuman standard of conduct not simply because he wants to, but because he has to for the safety of everyone around him. Moreover, he knows that his greatest power is the ability to inspire humanity to greatness, but he has to exercise that power cautiously so that he doesn't instead make humanity feel small and weak in his presence. It's his greatest strength and his most glaring weakness. It's how his greatest enemies attack him. And that's where you find the best stories about Superman.


So in other words, he's Dr. Manhattan with a conscience.
 
2012-12-29 08:14:12 PM  

Lernaeus: I think people see Superman as boring because he comes off as a Boy Scout - a 2D, goody-two-shoes that can't be or do anything controversial.


DCAU had an great "alternate universe" story where Luthor is elected President of the United States and Superman eventually ( and understandably, IMHO) snaps and vaporizes him...

Of course, not trusting "lesser" & corruptable men leads Superman & the Justice League to assume the reins of power...

/ good writing can fix an otherwise boring character, IMHO.
 
2012-12-29 08:15:02 PM  

Champion of the Sun: DarkPascual: Superman and Captain America probably aren't the coolest, but they are good men, and those characters are needed too.

Yeah, we've lost our way. A little truth justice and the American way would be good right about now.


truly can't tell if these posts are serious
 
2012-12-29 08:16:21 PM  

Champion of the Sun: Wish they would just make a live action Dark Night Returns already. Only convincing foe for Superman that I've ever seen. John Hamm can finally play Superman. Not sure about Bruce though. Can't imagine someone who looks both like a grizzled crime fighter and a rich playboy. Mickey Rourke could be a convincing Batman, but a horrible Bruce Wayne.


George Clooney. It's time to redeem himself for 1997 permanently.
 
2012-12-29 08:23:02 PM  

Champion of the Sun: Wish they would just make a live action Dark Night Returns already. Only convincing foe for Superman that I've ever seen. John Hamm can finally play Superman. Not sure about Bruce though. Can't imagine someone who looks both like a grizzled crime fighter and a rich playboy. Mickey Rourke could be a convincing Batman, but a horrible Bruce Wayne.


I think Richard Armitage could be an awesome Batman, and Bruce Wayne. He just needs to drop the British accent, and he has the deep voice. He has the look down of Bruce to a T in the comics.
 
2012-12-29 08:24:35 PM  

downstairs: CPT Ethanolic: Batman is easier because of the "dark" past.  It's the same reason that goth poetry is easy.  Selling misery/darkness is always easier than selling hope.

Never thought of it that way, good analogy.


Pure nonsense. Hallmark cards sell plenty well. Most people love the corniest, easiest, happiest shiat (thus why even "dark" hollywood films have to have happy endings)
 
2012-12-29 08:31:48 PM  

jj325: I think that a part of the problem is that to a whole generation, and to a lot of other people, this

[scrapetv.com image 283x350]

is Superman.  Christopher Reeve owned that role, and his image has become so closely associated with Superman, that it's hard to get people on the side of a different actor.


Although, I think today a lot of people see
anitaabbasi.files.wordpress.com

As Clark/The Blur/Superman
 
2012-12-29 08:31:59 PM  

kroonermanblack: Mentat: Superman is not boring, Superman is not lame, it just requires a certain degree of talent to write for that type of character that most comics writers don't have.

Superman is lame. He's a full fledged god. He has no power limitations, has every power, and is completely immune to everything but magic rocks or magic.


The problem is also that he is conceptually really boring on most levels too. Superman? Hardly an on original name. Costume? Bland. Powers? Just a totally random bunch of powers grouped together for no reason (laser eyes, freeze breath, etc.) . On top of that, he is just a pure boy scout with no real personality.

You call him a god, but the gods of classic mythology had much more interesting back stories, names, powers, personalities, etc.

Of course, some of this is because he is (more of less) the first super hero. Although I'm not sure how much leeway we should give him there, since the writers of superman had thousands of years of literature to draw upon in creating a character.

Superman is only really interesting in comics when he isn't treated as a character really, but just as a pure archetype and then dealt with in some kind of meta way (see: Alan Moore's Supreme, Red Son, some of Grant Morrison's stuff)
 
2012-12-29 08:36:16 PM  

jj325: I think that a part of the problem is that to a whole generation, and to a lot of other people, this

[scrapetv.com image 283x350]

is Superman.  Christopher Reeve owned that role, and his image has become so closely associated with Superman, that it's hard to get people on the side of a different actor.


Just wanted to add in that I agree with your post.

However it's time for filmmakers to take the Superman into a new world.... What doomed Superman Returns is it clinged to much to the Richard Donner film....
 
2012-12-29 08:40:22 PM  

Bill Frist: Champion of the Sun: DarkPascual: Superman and Captain America probably aren't the coolest, but they are good men, and those characters are needed too.

Yeah, we've lost our way. A little truth justice and the American way would be good right about now.

truly can't tell if these posts are serious


I was serious, but I mean it from a narrative perspective without trying to make any comment about any sort of socio-political stand point. Both Superman and Cap are the kind of character that are on the more selfless and idealistic side of the spectrum, as opposed to more cynical antiheroes, at least on the comics and stories that I've read, and I think that that kind of character is also needed to have variety in a story.

If that came across as some sort of judgment about... well, anything besides fictional stories, my apologies. I am not from the USA not living on the USA, so I rarely comment on anything about what happens inside that country...

As for Champion of the Sun, I think he's just messing around...
 
2012-12-29 08:43:02 PM  

moothemagiccow: Mentat: Superman is not boring, Superman is not lame, it just requires a certain degree of talent to write for that type of character that most comics writers don't have.

and tv writers
and movie writers
and cartoon writers
and novel writers


This is like saying a rock isn't boring, it just takes the right kind of painter to paint a cool looking rock. Maybe true in theory, but anything that's farking boring CAN, in theory, be made interesting by a good writer. That doesn't make the original object not lame.
 
2012-12-29 08:55:43 PM  

Lernaeus: CPT Ethanolic: Batman is easier because of the "dark" past.  It's the same reason that goth poetry is easy.  Selling misery/darkness is always easier than selling hope.

Good point.

I think people see Superman as boring because he comes off as a Boy Scout - a 2D, goody-two-shoes that can't be or do anything controversial.

But that's just the product if limited imaginations.

First, you *can* make a "heroes' hero" interesting (but it does require a moral position; hard to do in a time where morality is so political, but not impossible).

Second, he's a frkn' ALIEN, so there's tons of fertile ground there.

Third, there's something they always gloss over with Superman: he's supposed to be a genius. It wouldn't be hard to write a story where he's using his mind and power to solve problems (bigger than crooked real estate schemes), and having to deal with those whose corrupt power is threatened by him.

Making Superman interesting means taking chances and taking risks with the story. Sadly his audience may not be amenable to that.


You've pretty much described All Star Superman. There really needs to be someone like who can take the best parts of the best Superman stories and make them into something really grand, like Nolan did with bits and pieces of Year One, The Long Halloween, The Dark Knight Returns, Knightfall, and No Man's Land. It doesn't have to be a straight adaption, it just needs to use good parts of the story. For example, I personally think that if you took elements of New Frontier and moved the story into the modern era, you would have the core of a good Justice League movie.
 
2012-12-29 08:57:09 PM  
The only good stories with Superman with them are the one where Superman is a Commie and the one where Ra's gets Batman's files and manages to use them to shut down all of the JLA, including Superman - since Batman had it planned on how to lock that lame ass character down if necessary the whole time.
 
2012-12-29 09:00:35 PM  
I was being serious about the truth justice and the American way thing. Yes, America has an ugly past but we at least paid lip service to a higher ideal. Now no one cares about justice as we kill people with drones. Superman probably wouldn't be cool with one in five American children going hungry. I can't remember the last time I heard truth out of any public figure, even the ones I kinda like
 
2012-12-29 09:07:12 PM  

Champion of the Sun: I was being serious about the truth justice and the American way thing. Yes, America has an ugly past but we at least paid lip service to a higher ideal. Now no one cares about justice as we kill people with drones. Superman probably wouldn't be cool with one in five American children going hungry. I can't remember the last time I heard truth out of any public figure, even the ones I kinda like


In all seriousness, America holds up a much higher standard for "truth and justice" now than we did in any time in the past. While I'm no fan of drones, you really think they are worse than slavery? Internment camps? Making homosexuality illegal? Not allowing women or minorities (or non-property holding whites) to vote? Mass murdering native americans? Censoring books and works of art? Hollywood blacklisting?

etc. etc.
 
2012-12-29 09:13:08 PM  
Like, you think Superman wouldn't be cool with one in five children going hungry but... he was cool with the mass poverty and hunger of Hoover's presidency? (Superman was created in 1932)
 
2012-12-29 09:13:22 PM  

texdent: jj325: I think that a part of the problem is that to a whole generation, and to a lot of other people, this

[scrapetv.com image 283x350]

is Superman.  Christopher Reeve owned that role, and his image has become so closely associated with Superman, that it's hard to get people on the side of a different actor.

Although, I think today a lot of people see
[anitaabbasi.files.wordpress.com image 300x300]

As Clark/The Blur/Superman


Who gives a fark who plays superman.
THIS is the only person who has any business playing Lois Lane:
img154.imagevenue.com
Sadly, that's the largest pic I could find of that particular shot, that showed up reliably in the opening credits of every episode.
 
2012-12-29 09:14:50 PM  

UberNeuman: jj325: I think that a part of the problem is that to a whole generation, and to a lot of other people, this

[scrapetv.com image 283x350]

is Superman.  Christopher Reeve owned that role, and his image has become so closely associated with Superman, that it's hard to get people on the side of a different actor.

Just wanted to add in that I agree with your post.

However it's time for filmmakers to take the Superman into a new world.... What doomed Superman Returns is it clinged to much to the Richard Donner film....


The problem with "Superman Returns" was it couldn't decide whether it wanted to be a reboot or a sequel.
 
2012-12-29 09:29:37 PM  

Bill Frist: Like, you think Superman wouldn't be cool with one in five children going hungry but... he was cool with the mass poverty and hunger of Hoover's presidency? (Superman was created in 1932)


Pretty sure there were references to all that in the comics of the time, and he wasn't the superman we know until later. The creators were first generation Jewish Americans, so they had some political opinions that weren't easy to air out in the open. And the truth justice and American way thing wasn't added til the radio show after the war, when others had taken over the character. I don't understand your dickery, or your absence and reappearance on fark. And his whole shtick was about social justice. You got some sort of tardation. I said we lost our way, not superman. And I also said we paid lip service to a higher ideal regardless of our actions. Our faults are currently less evil than in the past, but our ideals are short shrift more than ever. Now please, misinterpret a snippet of what I said and belabor a point no one cares about.
 
2012-12-29 09:30:57 PM  

Bith Set Me Up: UberNeuman: jj325: I think that a part of the problem is that to a whole generation, and to a lot of other people, this

[scrapetv.com image 283x350]

is Superman.  Christopher Reeve owned that role, and his image has become so closely associated with Superman, that it's hard to get people on the side of a different actor.

Just wanted to add in that I agree with your post.

However it's time for filmmakers to take the Superman into a new world.... What doomed Superman Returns is it clinged to much to the Richard Donner film....

The problem with "Superman Returns" was it couldn't decide whether it wanted to be a reboot or a sequel.


? as far as I'm concerned it was a follow up to Superman II...

\chasing ghosts of the past - not a fine way to set something new.....
 
2012-12-29 09:31:51 PM  
I'm sick to shiat of Wolverine and Deadpool and their like, and this idea that it's only got ethos or pathos if it's grimdark. I reread this...

media.tumblr.com

...over Christmas. It was an amazing reminder of why Superman's always been my hero.

I'm glad that someone mentioned Superman vs. The Elite. Awesome movie. The animated DC movies have knocked it out of the park for the most part. Also check out the adaptation of All-Star Superman. A couple of the greatest Superman films made right there.
 
2012-12-29 09:35:51 PM  
If I made a Superman movie, it would be 2 1/2 hours of Superman kicking ass.
No drama, no weaknesses, no overcoming obstacles, just a whole bunch of ass kicking.
 
2012-12-29 09:38:28 PM  

Champion of the Sun: And his whole shtick was about social justice. You got some sort of tardation. I said we lost our way, not superman. And I also said we paid lip service to a higher ideal regardless of our actions. Our faults are currently less evil than in the past, but our ideals are short shrift more than ever. Now please, misinterpret a snippet of what I said and belabor a point no one cares about.


I still think this is pure nonsense, but sorry I questioned your poorly thought out comments and made you feel bad :( if only superman was here to show fark users the American way like he used to be in the good old days.
 
2012-12-29 09:38:28 PM  

Shrugging Atlas: Not a boring Superman story...

[i.imgur.com image 398x609]


That's uh... quite the bulge that Shazam is packing...
 
2012-12-29 09:42:01 PM  
If questions didn't make you feel so bad, I'd ask how you think America has less faults (or less evil ones) than the past but has "lots its way".

Guess we should have stayed on course and gotten more evil instead?
 
2012-12-29 09:53:11 PM  

WhippingBoy: That's uh... quite the bulge that Shazam is packing...


The 'M' in Shazam is for the package of Milton Berle.
 
2012-12-29 09:53:26 PM  

WhippingBoy: If I made a Superman movie, it would be 2 1/2 hours of Superman kicking ass.
No drama, no weaknesses, no overcoming obstacles, just a whole bunch of ass kicking.


Sounds like a boring farking movie.
 
2012-12-29 10:04:38 PM  

Bill Frist: If questions didn't make you feel so bad, I'd ask how you think America has less faults (or less evil ones) than the past but has "lots its way".

Guess we should have stayed on course and gotten more evil instead?


Are you hard right now? Does this feeling make you happy? Do you pick up women by telling them you aggravation troll on the Internet? Your parents are very proud of you. You have spent the gift of life in such a meaningful way. I wish I was more like you. If I pay you, will you show me the way? I'm potty trained and I don't mind sleeping in garages or basements. Even a chest stored in the closet will be an acceptable bed for me. Please
 
2012-12-29 10:06:12 PM  

Jizz Master Zero: WhippingBoy: If I made a Superman movie, it would be 2 1/2 hours of Superman kicking ass.
No drama, no weaknesses, no overcoming obstacles, just a whole bunch of ass kicking.

Sounds like a boring farking movie.


Couldn't be any worse than Superman Returns.
 
2012-12-29 10:06:54 PM  
You're the dork that tried to make a Superman movie thread about some half-assed political opinions you hold.

But, man, maybe internet discussion boards just aren't for you if you can't handle any discussion?
 
2012-12-29 10:10:00 PM  
Bill Frist: Like, you think Superman wouldn't be cool with one in five children going hungry but... he was cool with the mass poverty and hunger of Hoover's presidency? (Superman was created in 1932)

You really don't know your Superman history. It's the exact opposite of what you said. The Truth, Justice and the American Way only came later, after WWII. He was much more a people's hero fighting corrupt politicians and dirty landlords in the first decade. Having been created in 1932 is absolute zero evidence that he was cool with anything happening in that year.
 
2012-12-29 10:11:47 PM  

AsprinBurn: Bill Frist: Like, you think Superman wouldn't be cool with one in five children going hungry but... he was cool with the mass poverty and hunger of Hoover's presidency? (Superman was created in 1932)

You really don't know your Superman history. It's the exact opposite of what you said. The Truth, Justice and the American Way only came later, after WWII. He was much more a people's hero fighting corrupt politicians and dirty landlords in the first decade. Having been created in 1932 is absolute zero evidence that he was cool with anything happening in that year.


I doubt said fictional character is cool with drone bombings either...
 
2012-12-29 10:16:18 PM  

Bill Frist: You're the dork that tried to make a Superman movie thread about some half-assed political opinions you hold.

But, man, maybe internet discussion boards just aren't for you if you can't handle any discussion?


Did you finish? Do you feel shame right now? I always feel shame when I finish. My refractory period is about thirty minutes, what's yours? We can go again when you're ready.

But seriously, don't talk to me about discussion when you don't address any points I make or even attempt to engage in meaningful debate. Read your comments and see if you come off as someone worthy of interaction.
 
2012-12-29 10:17:53 PM  
You are really bad at this! haha
 
2012-12-29 10:18:20 PM  

smimmy: moothemagiccow: Mentat: Superman is not boring, Superman is not lame, it just requires a certain degree of talent to write for that type of character that most comics writers don't have.

and tv writers
and movie writers
and cartoon writers
and novel writers

The first season of Smallville was pretty good, admittedly it got a lot worse as it went on.


Meteorite freak of the week? It was terrible.

The first two Christopher Reeve-Superman movies were good.

Nope, goofy. Reeve played both parts well but everyone else was terrible and Lex was a shiatty villain.

The Superman and Justice League/JLU cartoons were awesome.

Justice League was OK but about 8 minutes into every episode they're fighting an avalanche or robots or something that's total filler.

I can't speak for novels...

Let's assume they're terrible.
 
2012-12-29 10:18:56 PM  

Jizz Master Zero: WhippingBoy: If I made a Superman movie, it would be 2 1/2 hours of Superman kicking ass.
No drama, no weaknesses, no overcoming obstacles, just a whole bunch of ass kicking.

Sounds like a boring farking movie.


Sounds like The Avengers
 
2012-12-29 10:19:21 PM  
Adapting Superman is easy:

They are trying to do with Superman what Marvel did with Iron Man. Build a cornerstone for a group movie franchise... thats difficult.

if you wan't to make a superman movie: Don't bother retelling the back story.... we all know it... planet blowing up, growing up in Kansas, being a reporter

get to the heart of the story

which is Superman was an alien god who fell to earth and became a man, a man who holds back against the fragility of the world around him and keeps himself from shattering the world.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiTWeu0nOKs

this video says it well enough
 
2012-12-29 10:24:51 PM  
So the defense of the ball of suck that is superman is that in 1932 he didn't suck - not sure beating up landlords and ward bosses doesn't suck but whatever floats your boat. Superman is a god and stories about gods suck. Stories about people f'ed with by the gods don't suck. The Iliad isn't about the god, it is about the people the gods have ruined. It is entirely possible a Lois Lane focused movie would be vastly more compelling than a Superman focused movie.

Superman also has no rivals anyone cares about. Batman has rivals that people want to see - the Joker being likely the best arch-villain out there. Superman doesn't have anyone that sniffs Joker level and really nothing at the Catwoman/Penguin level.
 
2012-12-29 10:25:37 PM  

demonfaerie: I actually enjoyed Superman in the DC cartoons, but mostly when Batman is around. They really complement each other well. I have not read enough Superman comics, but that was because I couldn't get into them. However, didn't they just hook up Superman and Wonder Woman to make them more relevant again? Also they did with match.com I guess too. http://mashable.com/2012/08/27/superman-wonder-woman/

Also obligatory: Death and Return of Superman

Sums up Superman.


Death and Return of Superman is terrible and from the pop culture perspective of superman an not from the actual comic fan perspective
 
2012-12-29 10:29:53 PM  

dalbuc: So the defense of the ball of suck that is superman is that in 1932 he didn't suck - not sure beating up landlords and ward bosses doesn't suck but whatever floats your boat. Superman is a god and stories about gods suck. Stories about people f'ed with by the gods don't suck. The Iliad isn't about the god, it is about the people the gods have ruined. It is entirely possible a Lois Lane focused movie would be vastly more compelling than a Superman focused movie.

Superman also has no rivals anyone cares about. Batman has rivals that people want to see - the Joker being likely the best arch-villain out there. Superman doesn't have anyone that sniffs Joker level and really nothing at the Catwoman/Penguin level.


Superman isn't a god... see thats your problem right there.

He is Gallahad who was given the power of the Gods. And he has to keep his power in check because of his humanity.

He is the best humanity has to offer

Byrne made Lex Luthor vs Superman interesting

Lex is a self made man: He came out of the slums and did so with grit , determination, and a grey morality. He views himself as the greatness of humanity. Superman is a mirror that shows he isn't great he is just powerful.

Braniac is the knowledge of the Kryptonian race that exists without the humanity Clark has

the story is his humanity, not his powers
 
2012-12-29 10:30:47 PM  

dalbuc: Superman also has no rivals anyone cares about. Batman has rivals that people want to see - the Joker being likely the best arch-villain out there. Superman doesn't have anyone that sniffs Joker level and really nothing at the Catwoman/Penguin level.


Lex is a cool villain, but everyone else in Superman's rogue gallery is pretty farking dumb. I mean, who are the next biggest ones? Brainiac and Mr. Mxyzptlk?
 
2012-12-29 10:38:40 PM  

karasoth: the story is his humanity, not his powers


Superman has no humanity. Humanity is messy. Humanity farks and pukes and loves and despairs. Superman is idealized Boy Scout virtues, not humanity. He is more or less Jesus Christ with a cape.

In a narrative sense, humanity really needs to overcome challenges. Needs to be tempted into evil or failure, but overcome anyway.

That never* happens to Superman. He is always good, never tempted, never fails. His setbacks are just logistical, like figuring out how to counter this or that type of kryptonite

*(In the bazillions of comics that have been written I'm sure some writers have tried to make Superman be tempted by evil, but generally...)
 
2012-12-29 10:44:02 PM  

Bill Frist: dalbuc: Superman also has no rivals anyone cares about. Batman has rivals that people want to see - the Joker being likely the best arch-villain out there. Superman doesn't have anyone that sniffs Joker level and really nothing at the Catwoman/Penguin level.

Lex is a cool villain, but everyone else in Superman's rogue gallery is pretty farking dumb. I mean, who are the next biggest ones? Brainiac and Mr. Mxyzptlk?


Lex
Braniac
Zod (his big entry into comics was pretty awesome)
Darkside
Cyborg-Superman
Metallo
Bizarro
Parasite
Mister Mxyzptlk
Doomsday
Toyman
 
2012-12-29 10:48:15 PM  
"Clark Kent is how Superman views us. And what are the characteristics of Clark Kent. He's weak... he's unsure of himself... he's a coward. Clark Kent is Superman's critique on the whole human race. "
 
2012-12-29 10:49:17 PM  

Bill Frist: karasoth: the story is his humanity, not his powers

Superman has no humanity. Humanity is messy. Humanity farks and pukes and loves and despairs. Superman is idealized Boy Scout virtues, not humanity. He is more or less Jesus Christ with a cape.

In a narrative sense, humanity really needs to overcome challenges. Needs to be tempted into evil or failure, but overcome anyway.

That never* happens to Superman. He is always good, never tempted, never fails. His setbacks are just logistical, like figuring out how to counter this or that type of kryptonite

*(In the bazillions of comics that have been written I'm sure some writers have tried to make Superman be tempted by evil, but generally...)


*says some one who has never read superman*

Superman is tempted in the comics and struggles
 
2012-12-29 10:50:09 PM  
Right, but most of those are pretty darn lame. Cybog-Superman? Bizarro (fun as pure camp sometimes, but hardly cool as a real villain)? Ditto Mxyzptik. Doomsday is corny as hell. Toyman seems like a wannabe Batman rogue, except he doesn't really fit into the superman world.

Darkseid (I assume that's what you meant) is pretty cool though.
 
2012-12-29 10:50:26 PM  

Bill Frist: dalbuc: Superman also has no rivals anyone cares about. Batman has rivals that people want to see - the Joker being likely the best arch-villain out there. Superman doesn't have anyone that sniffs Joker level and really nothing at the Catwoman/Penguin level.

Lex is a cool villain, but everyone else in Superman's rogue gallery is pretty farking dumb. I mean, who are the next biggest ones? Brainiac and Mr. Mxyzptlk?


Check out "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?" to see what those two can do when you let them off their leashes.
 
2012-12-29 10:53:24 PM  

karasoth: Superman is tempted in the comics and struggles


Not in the ones I've read, or at least not done effectively.

I think the right way to do superman is to ignore him as a real character and just play off his archtype and history. This is what, say, Grant Morrison does in All Star Superman and it works. Just go for the pure goofy fun that silver age superman represents. Embrace the camp of super dogs and robot doubles and crazy space monsters.

The probablem, though, is that this is hard to translate to film probably. And this is clearly NOT what Nolan is doing (or capable of doing). They should have someone like Del Toro write and direct a superman movie. Just make it campy monster fun.
 
2012-12-29 11:12:16 PM  


They can be a great people, Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way.
www.dialbforblog.com
For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you... my only son.



one of the greatest movie lines ever.

Knowingly or not, it's the modern John 3:16 for those of us that don't believe in hokey religions but grew up obsessed with Superman, Batman and all those other stories of greatness versus mediocrity, good versus evil and man's inner struggle with himself.

Many of us built our moral codes on these stories as children and we still look to them for inspiration and reminders of our ideologies.

I'm sure not every comic book or superhero fan identifies with them this way, but the underlying story behind Superman (as with other superheros) is a story well worth telling. I can't wait until someone finds the way to tell it correctly and effectively as Richard Donner did. I sure hope Man of Steel pulls it off.

As for Superman himself, yes he is especially difficult to portray. But it's not because he is the pinnacle of greatness... from his strength of flesh and near invincibility to his superior intelligence and morality. And it's not that he is without fault because he is. And it isn't that out of necessity and will to survive that evil will seek his fall relentlessly.
All of these are the easy parts. Just doing them makes a mediocre Superman story (and I think we know which ones they are)

The difficulty lies in finding a way to portray that because of all his god-like gifts; that he holds the weight of a world and the fate of a people on his shoulders. A fate he was chosen for but must accept willingly.
And that when he falters, it's those who suffer from his mistakes and he must cope with that inevitability.. That because he is held (and holds himself) to such high standards and aspirations that when he falls short, it's a very very long fall for both himself and those who look to him.

The higher we climb (or fly), the further we have to fall and the greater the consequences will be when we do.
It's a theme and lesson without age. And Superman can fly so very very high.

/haters gonna hate
//can't wait for the movie
 
2012-12-29 11:25:18 PM  
Best Superman graphic novel ever made was Superman: Red Son...
 
2012-12-29 11:29:13 PM  

Shrugging Atlas: Not a boring Superman story...

[i.imgur.com image 398x609]


That looks like it's about to get all slashficcy
 
2012-12-29 11:36:20 PM  

Mentat: Superman is not boring, Superman is not lame, it just requires a certain degree of talent to write for that type of character that most comics writers don't have.


media.comicvine.com

Superman is ultra boring and mega lame. Why? Because you have very few weaknesses, all of the stories are going to revolve around those weaknesses, over and over and over and over again. I mean, have you seen a Superman movie that DIDN'T involve Kryptonite?

Also, his "stars and stripes forever" level of patriotism makes him a pretty one-dimensional goody two shoes. Batman has a dark side and a dark past. Many good superheroes do. The best stories revolve around anti-heroes or ones that have danced around shades of grey.

Lastly, when Alan Moore was creating the character Dr. Manhattan, he was basically making fun of Superman. This is what you do when you have as much power as Superman...
 
2012-12-29 11:46:47 PM  
I don't understand people biatching about kryptonite. Sunlight kills vampires and they still find ways to make it interesting.

And stop rebooting the Donner films. They were weak sauce to begin with.
 
2012-12-29 11:53:27 PM  

Dr.Zom: I don't understand people biatching about kryptonite. Sunlight kills vampires and they still find ways to make it interesting.

And stop rebooting the Donner films. They were weak sauce to begin with.


and sunlight operates on a fairly easy to understand system. Kryptonite is either as rare or common as the plot line requires. And unlike vampires who also have nearly a dozen other weakness they have to watch out for when the sun is down if there is no Kryptonite around superman is pretty much invulnerable.
 
2012-12-30 12:10:18 AM  

karasoth: Bill Frist: dalbuc: Superman also has no rivals anyone cares about. Batman has rivals that people want to see - the Joker being likely the best arch-villain out there. Superman doesn't have anyone that sniffs Joker level and really nothing at the Catwoman/Penguin level.

Lex is a cool villain, but everyone else in Superman's rogue gallery is pretty farking dumb. I mean, who are the next biggest ones? Brainiac and Mr. Mxyzptlk?

Lex
Braniac
Zod (his big entry into comics was pretty awesome)
Darkside
Cyborg-Superman
Metallo
Bizarro
Parasite
Mister Mxyzptlk
Doomsday
Toyman


You forgot one...

i657.photobucket.com

\ Nothing "boring" about THAT fight! o.o
 
2012-12-30 12:20:16 AM  

Mentat: kroonermanblack: Superman is lame. He's a full fledged god. He has no power limitations, has every power, and is completely immune to everything but magic rocks or magic.

Unless we're taking away all the super powers that make the escapism cool, super man is a tits up boring character because he's a GOD. There's no training or difficulty for him to overcome, it's all worthless challenges. And when he DOES have a fight? It's farking super-sayan Dragon Ball Z levels of stupid 'blowing up the sun to power punch' strength. Those characters are tepidly boring to watch because there's no real risk or harm to them, so why care? Especially since he has EVERY super power known to man, and has it better than the premier exemplar of it anyway.

Imagine for a moment how much concentration is required for Clark Kent to shake someone's hand without crushing it into paste.  Or to kiss Lois without crushing her face.  or opening a car door without ripping it off.  Superman doesn't get an off-day.  He doesn't get to daydream or let his mind wander.  He has to maintain that level of concentration 24/7, even in the midst of battle.  This is a man who can literally crack the planet in half, and yet he chooses not to.  Why?  Because Superman's limits have never been physical, they are moral and ethical.  This is a man who holds himself to a superhuman standard of conduct not simply because he wants to, but because he has to for the safety of everyone around him.  Moreover, he knows that his greatest power is the ability to inspire humanity to greatness, but he has to exercise that power cautiously so that he doesn't instead make humanity feel small and weak in his presence.  It's his greatest strength and his most glaring weakness.  It's how his greatest enemies attack him.  And that's where you find the best stories about Superman.


That's another thing that makes Batman and Superman part of a yin/yang dynamic.

Batman was born into money and had to work for his abilities.

Superman was born into his abilities and had to work for his money.

Batman is a human who tries to be super-human

Superman is a super-human that tries to be human.
 
2012-12-30 01:08:50 AM  
i saw the trailer online, then on the big screen.

it looked like a whole lot of fail.

Kevin Costner? gimme a break.
the nobody guy from that show i could care less about playing supertights? yawn.

and this is what now , reboot number 400?

i will watch it on dvd because Diane Lane is in it and I'd watch Diane Lane read a toyota repair manual in a burlap sack with no makeup on so...

it looks like a whole lotta crap.
/Christina Fillion
//Nathan Bale
///etc etc fanboy butthurt
 
2012-12-30 01:12:06 AM  
i2.listal.com
spice this thread up a bit
 
2012-12-30 01:16:45 AM  

Bill Frist: Champion of the Sun: I was being serious about the truth justice and the American way thing. Yes, America has an ugly past but we at least paid lip service to a higher ideal. Now no one cares about justice as we kill people with drones. Superman probably wouldn't be cool with one in five American children going hungry. I can't remember the last time I heard truth out of any public figure, even the ones I kinda like

In all seriousness, America holds up a much higher standard for "truth and justice" now than we did in any time in the past. While I'm no fan of drones, you really think they are worse than slavery? Internment camps? Making homosexuality illegal? Not allowing women or minorities (or non-property holding whites) to vote? Mass murdering native americans? Censoring books and works of art? Hollywood blacklisting?

etc. etc.


The good old days are myth.
 
2012-12-30 01:20:26 AM  
Superman is a great character. People don't like "Good" right now though. People see themselves as falling so short of good that it makes it impossible to like a truly good character. Good is boring. "Boy Scout", "Goody-two-shoes", "Moral" are all derogatory because they can't be achieved by the masses.

Superman works when the audience feels like they're achieving good - like fighting Nazis or the KKK. Right now the world isn't working towards greater good, there is no great evil being fought - pretty much only petty politics where everyone is the bad guy all the time. This is why Batman works right now. The irony is that the world needs good in order to work towards good. Superman will work again in the next world war and should probably be shelved until he can fight along side the audience.

For the record though, Captain America is my favorite superhero. Not in any "America, fark yeah" sense, though.
 
2012-12-30 01:21:43 AM  

blue_2501: Superman is ultra boring and mega lame. Why? Because you have very few weaknesses, all of the stories are going to revolve around those weaknesses, over and over and over and over again. I mean, have you seen a Superman movie that DIDN'T involve Kryptonite?

Also, his "stars and stripes forever" level of patriotism makes him a pretty one-dimensional goody two shoes. Batman has a dark side and a dark past. Many good superheroes do. The best stories revolve around anti-heroes or ones that have danced around shades of grey.

Lastly, when Alan Moore was creating the character Dr. Manhattan, he was basically making fun of Superman. This is what you do when you have as much power as Superman...


1)  Superman II didn't involve kryptonite.
2)  Your attitude is the reason the comics industry has been saddled with an endless stream of generic anti-heroes since the 90's.  Superman and Batman are two sides of the same coin.  Batman is the cynical realist who sees humanity for what it is.  Superman is the idealist who sees what humanity could be.  We may live in Batman's world but we should strive for Superman's.  Without a Superman, life is just an endless struggle until you're shot dead in some grimy Gotham alley.  For all of his struggle, Batman ultimately accomplishes nothing.  It's not just that the villains always come back, it's that the low level criminals never go away.  There is always an endless stream of muggers, robbers, rapists, thieves, mobsters, crooked cops and low-lifes that are willing to risk Batman's wrath in order to operate in Gotham.  Superman is a ray of hope in that world.
3)  No, Alan Moore wasn't "making fun" of Superman, he was deconstructing the character.  Dr. Manhattan is what happens to Superman when he loses his tether to humanity.  Superman unbound from his ethical code is terrifying.
 
2012-12-30 01:34:23 AM  

Tarl3k: Best Superman graphic novel ever made was Superman: Red Son...


I have a soft spot for A Superman for All Seasons. I really like how it cures the essence of what makes Superman a great character. Until I read this story, I really didn't get Superman as a character.

i.imgur.com

www.blogcdn.com
All Star Superman is also great as well.
 
2012-12-30 01:40:58 AM  

jj325: I think that a part of the problem is that to a whole generation, and to a lot of other people, this

[scrapetv.com image 283x350]

is Superman.  Christopher Reeve owned that role, and his image has become so closely associated with Superman, that it's hard to get people on the side of a different actor.


^THIS. This is the Superman I remember. Of course the animated series I got used to hearing Tim Daly's voice but that is a different matter. When we rented The Dark Knight Rises, there was a trailer for this movie and the wife was echoing my sentiment, "There will only be ONE Superman and he is dead now"

/of course I think one of the better comics I remember reading was something along the lines of a "what if" storyline where what if Kal-El had crashed just outside Gotham and the Waynes had found him, decided to not have children and adopt him. One of the images I can remember was in the alley when they get shot, he gets pissed and pretty much burns them up with his heat vision.
 
2012-12-30 02:16:14 AM  
As far as coming up with a good movie villain to go against Big Blue... I think Brainiac has the most potential, if done right.

The key to dealing with top-tier superpowers, and demigod characters in general, is to use conflicts that render those powers at least partially useless. That doesn't always mean the magic or kryptonite method. Kingdom Come worked by confronting him with a dilemma that he no longer had the perspective to solve. Brainiac can do the same, while playing to enough tropes to make the character quickly understood by viewers.

Picture Brainiac as the logical sci-fi extension of AI research and crimefighting/counterterrorism: an ultra-authoritarian Big Brother that manages to infest most of the world's networks before anyone notices what it's up to. It demands that humanity live in peace as rational beings- and will nuke us, turn drones on us or simply take all our toys away, the moment we make one false move. Like Superman, it's a transhuman intelligence with its own notions of Truth and Justice and a vision for humanity's future. It has no body to punch, no secret core system to heat-vision into slag, and can hold the entire species hostage against Supes and his interference. Even if Brainiac is bluffing on that last point, it may well be that the only way to stop it is to undo the entire Information Age and then start over from untainted systems.

That should be plenty to keep him busy, for a start.
 
2012-12-30 03:21:46 AM  

Mad_Radhu: Tarl3k: Best Superman graphic novel ever made was Superman: Red Son...

I have a soft spot for A Superman for All Seasons. I really like how it cures the essence of what makes Superman a great character. Until I read this story, I really didn't get Superman as a character.

[i.imgur.com image 700x1075]

[www.blogcdn.com image 400x638]
All Star Superman is also great as well.


Superman for all seasons is an amazing comic I wish more people read. It essential to the who the character is in the same way Batman: Year One is to Bruce.
 
2012-12-30 03:27:06 AM  

had98c: Maybe it's harder because these stupid comic book characters have been done and redone a bazillion times already. How about trying something original for once?


Yeah, Christopher Nolan has NEVER done an original movie.
 
2012-12-30 03:35:39 AM  

Bill Frist: downstairs: CPT Ethanolic: Batman is easier because of the "dark" past.  It's the same reason that goth poetry is easy.  Selling misery/darkness is always easier than selling hope.

Never thought of it that way, good analogy.

Pure nonsense. Hallmark cards sell plenty well. Most people love the corniest, easiest, happiest shiat (thus why even "dark" hollywood films have to have happy endings)


Memento, Insomnia, and The Prestige all has pretty farked up endings, all done by Nolan.
 
2012-12-30 03:51:44 AM  

FuryOfFirestorm: That's another thing that makes Batman and Superman part of a yin/yang dynamic.

Batman was born into money and had to work for his abilities.

Superman was born into his abilities and had to work for his money.

Batman is a human who tries to be super-human

Superman is a super-human that tries to be human.


They're basically the same superhero, but different characters.

The movie shiat is easy: Batman is rich so you get to cut the action scenes with let me buy this restaurant, let me fark this model - which everyone wants to do, but can't, so they watch. They did this on Iron Man because he's Marvel's Batman.

Superman movies suck because the side story is boring. Superman is a reporter (seen any good reporter movies lately?) who wants to fark a co-worker. Everyone wants to do this, and they do it already - at their job.
 
2012-12-30 04:01:35 AM  
Superman > Deadpool. There I said it.

I honestly think Superman is in desperate need of a long term makeover and I think it's all too simple how to do it: revert him to his Golden Age roots. He's about Truth and Justice (not the American way). He takes matters into his own hands. He'll bash through the walls of the villain's base and scare the hell out of them. He'll chuck guys around with ease and laugh at their attacks.

Who is this Superman? He's the guy we wish we could be when we wake up in the morning and read the news of the world and are disgusted. He's who your Grandpa wished he was when he was growing up poor during the Depression. He's not the guy who's there to save you; he's you to save this world one injustice at a time if you just had the power.

"But Superman has a corny personality," you say. Newsflash: everyone did in the Silver Age. Yes, even the wonderful Batman, Iron Man, or even Thor all were corny by today's standards then. DC's just been too stupid to shake Supes out of it like the rest.

You now have a super strong (but not "move the planet" strong), super tough (but tank shells can hurt him), super fast (but not "go back in time" fast) guy who cannot fly and cannot shoot heat beams from his eyes. And he's sick of some of this world's bull shiat. He's a walking power fantasy that lives in a world of corrupt politicians, greedy businessmen, and economic stress and he fights back.

You take that walking power fantasy and you explore how he can (and cannot) deal with today's ills. He's no more powerful than, say, Thor (who can fly and shoot lightning) or the Hulk (who isn't harmed by tank shells). He's a man who wants to do the right thing and be a hero (like Cap).

That's what Superman should be and that's what he once basically was.
 
2012-12-30 04:02:17 AM  
Superman is boring because he essentially has no weakness. Physically the only thing that can hurt him is kryptonite and morally he is incorruptible.
 
2012-12-30 04:51:58 AM  
Lord Binky Isn't who you're describing the Punisher?
 
2012-12-30 05:44:26 AM  

Karac: texdent: jj325: I think that a part of the problem is that to a whole generation, and to a lot of other people, this

[scrapetv.com image 283x350]

is Superman.  Christopher Reeve owned that role, and his image has become so closely associated with Superman, that it's hard to get people on the side of a different actor.

Although, I think today a lot of people see
[anitaabbasi.files.wordpress.com image 300x300]

As Clark/The Blur/Superman

Who gives a fark who plays superman.
THIS is the only person who has any business playing Lois Lane:
[img154.imagevenue.com image 160x131]
Sadly, that's the largest pic I could find of that particular shot, that showed up reliably in the opening credits of every episode.


sexynudeactresses.comHere you go.

/dean cain was farking horrible. he was hardly kansas whitebread
 
2012-12-30 05:53:52 AM  
I think the best villain for Superman would be one that could use his limitless powers against him or plan his capers in such a way that they were rendered all but useless. A supreme tactician. Brainiac could be used but gods is that a silly character as is. He would need an overhaul. Lex Luthor would work too, but that kryptonite shiat has got to go.
 
2012-12-30 05:56:01 AM  

gadian: Lord Binky Isn't who you're describing the Punisher?


Not exactly, but I think that it's telling of how different Superman was in the beginning and it even shows some common ground with The Punisher. Golden Age Supes wasn't a killer per se, but he was more liberal with his super powers and did things that probably would actually kill people. Frederick Wertham, while dubious at best about the sexual aspects of comics, had something of a point about the trivialization of violence and his main reference points were Golden Age comics. Superman was a bit of a roughneck by comparison to his classic image which would emerge in the 50s.

The Silver Age, more importantly the Comics Code and the creative stifling it wrought on comics for decades, softened Superman (and Batman and more) into silly, whimsical fare that he is associated with (superdickery.com hers most of its material from this time). I'm not saying that Superman was a ripsnorting, edgy badass free of corniness in the Golden Age - all Golden Age comics have an unconscious, "old-fashioned" corny feel to them, but their heroes still got down and dirty in ways that would translate quite well to modern action fare. Superman is no different to me in this regard.

Superman is stuck in the same funk Batman was in until the '89 movie. I think many have forgotten or don't realize that until Burton's movie, Adam West and the Superfriends were the major reference points for Batman in pop culture. Batman was a joke but now he's taken more seriously.

Superman doesn't need "careful" or "creative" writing any more than any other superhero. He just needs his clock turned back in order to trade some power for some balls he used to have.
 
2012-12-30 05:57:42 AM  

robohobo: Karac: texdent: jj325: I think that a part of the problem is that to a whole generation, and to a lot of other people, this

[scrapetv.com image 283x350]

is Superman.  Christopher Reeve owned that role, and his image has become so closely associated with Superman, that it's hard to get people on the side of a different actor.

Although, I think today a lot of people see
[anitaabbasi.files.wordpress.com image 300x300]

As Clark/The Blur/Superman

Who gives a fark who plays superman.
THIS is the only person who has any business playing Lois Lane:
[img154.imagevenue.com image 160x131]
Sadly, that's the largest pic I could find of that particular shot, that showed up reliably in the opening credits of every episode.

[sexynudeactresses.com image 850x694]Here you go.

/dean cain was farking horrible. he was hardly kansas whitebread


Great Scott Teri Hatcher was smoldering hot back then(still is, actually). She was the only reason I bothered to watch this otherwise saccharine-laden dreck.
 
2012-12-30 06:13:37 AM  

Apos: robohobo: Karac: texdent: jj325: I think that a part of the problem is that to a whole generation, and to a lot of other people, this

[scrapetv.com image 283x350]

is Superman.  Christopher Reeve owned that role, and his image has become so closely associated with Superman, that it's hard to get people on the side of a different actor.

Although, I think today a lot of people see
[anitaabbasi.files.wordpress.com image 300x300]

As Clark/The Blur/Superman

Who gives a fark who plays superman.
THIS is the only person who has any business playing Lois Lane:
[img154.imagevenue.com image 160x131]
Sadly, that's the largest pic I could find of that particular shot, that showed up reliably in the opening credits of every episode.

[sexynudeactresses.com image 850x694]Here you go.

/dean cain was farking horrible. he was hardly kansas whitebread

Great Scott Teri Hatcher was smoldering hot back then(still is, actually). She was the only reason I bothered to watch this otherwise saccharine-laden dreck.


I logged many hours with her in my spank bank. However the rack is not as impressive as one might believe. Real and spectacular? More like real and decent enough(see: The Cool Surface). But yeah, she was gorgeous back then. Pretty as all get-out.

I remember wondering, as a kid, why in the hell Chris Reeve's Superman(the one true film Superman for me, forever) was so hung up on Margot Kidder. The older I get, the more appealing she becomes. There's a cut scene in Donner's Superman 2 where she punks Clark into reveal his identity. While I disagree with how it happened(dude would know if he was hit by a bullet or not), it kinda opened my eyes as to how awesome a Lois she could be, and she's just got this...allure for me now.. Although for my money, and as much as I hate to say it, Erica Durance from Smallville made a very fine Lois Lane. That being said, I didn't mind Chloe as a Lois sub. Woulda been fine with her as Lois, actually. Teri Hatcher's Lois was always kinda meh, and very, very 90's. Much like Cain's Superman. Dana Delaney FTW, though.
 
2012-12-30 06:15:40 AM  


i382.photobucket.com


media.screened.com




Are there any character that attack his mind? Braniac "out-thinks" him, but when the body is invulnerable, hit him in the thoughts.
 
2012-12-30 06:27:30 AM  

WippitGuud: [i382.photobucket.com image 850x359]


[media.screened.com image 649x320]


Are there any character that attack his mind? Braniac "out-thinks" him, but when the body is invulnerable, hit him in the thoughts.


It's happened now and again, but much like Captain America has trained a great many of the Avengers in hand to hand combat, the Martian Manhunter has trained much of the JLA in telepath protection. But to answer directly, no, Superman has no arch-telepath-foe. He's had villains fark with his mind, Dominus, I suppose.

As long as we're on Superman, a)fark the new 52, and b)i've always been disappointed that it was never addressed that the superman that doomsday killed, the superman for a good half of the post-crisis run, wasn't really superman at all.
 
2012-12-30 06:33:28 AM  

robohobo: WippitGuud: [i382.photobucket.com image 850x359]


[media.screened.com image 649x320]


Are there any character that attack his mind? Braniac "out-thinks" him, but when the body is invulnerable, hit him in the thoughts.

It's happened now and again, but much like Captain America has trained a great many of the Avengers in hand to hand combat, the Martian Manhunter has trained much of the JLA in telepath protection. But to answer directly, no, Superman has no arch-telepath-foe. He's had villains fark with his mind, Dominus, I suppose.

As long as we're on Superman, a)fark the new 52, and b)i've always been disappointed that it was never addressed that the superman that doomsday killed, the superman for a good half of the post-crisis run, wasn't really superman at all.


Also The Key did a serious number on the league back in the mid-90's. That was a great story, actually. It was early in Morrison's run.

/"Nintendo has a lot to answer for. If you were antimatter, you and I would be exploding right now."
 
2012-12-30 06:35:05 AM  

robohobo:
It's happened now and again, but much like Captain America has trained a great many of the Avengers in hand to hand combat, the Martian Manhunter has trained much of the JLA in telepath protection. But to answer directly, no, Superman has no arch-telepath-foe. He's had villains fark with his mind, Dominus, I suppose.



Well, if I were to write a trilogy here... and ignore anyone from JLA and keep it strictly Superman.

Movie 1: Origin, typical Superman, but introduce telepath near the end.
Movie 2: 1/2 hour in, telepath starts to exert dominance on Superman. At the end of the movie, Superman is broken and works for telepath
Movie 3: World War Superman, and for the sake of the character he manages to break free and do the righteous win. But of course nobody trusts him anymore...
 
2012-12-30 06:41:24 AM  
I think what they mean is it's difficult adapting Superman as an entertaining blockbuster Hollywood movie. With over powered characters the best story lines are when they focus on everyone else but that character and just have them in the background like a force of nature. Obviously that could never be done on film, if the movie is called Superman then it better be about Superman smashing stuff.
 
2012-12-30 06:43:20 AM  
i.imgur.com

THIS THREAD ARE TEH WINZ!!!!
 
2012-12-30 07:04:24 AM  

WippitGuud: robohobo:

Well, if I were to write a trilogy here... and ignore anyone from JLA and keep it strictly Superman.

Movie 1: Origin, typical Superman, but introduce telepath near the end.

etc etc etc

No no no no no....

OPENING SHOT:

Giant Red Planet
floats into view firing lasers at Morbidly Obese American Internet Fan, himself the size of a planet.

The Giant "Hammer and Sickle" logo seems to make up the geography of this planet.

Just then, a sexually ambiguous man in tights with a flowing red gown..er..flowing red cape speeds into view between the giant Orca of a Comic Kid and pushes a giant homoerotic assteroid into the path of the communist bastard planet thus destroying it completely.

The Sexually Ambiguous Man In A Flowing Cape says;
"Don't worry Morbidly Obese American Internet Fan, you won't be wearing any of those crappy Commie Knockoffs and eating Dogs from the land of the hated Chinee! We won the cold war!"

Morbidly Obese American Internet Fan says;
"Gee thanks American Icon Of Imperialist Superiority! My Pants are feeling really tight right now!"

etc etc etc

--------

I love these fan threads more than the Twyhard / Twy Little Pony Erotica threads on the newsgroups...

this stuff sure warms up my adult diaper...

"if i had things my way I'd...."

if we had things your way internet fan, we'd all be jobless and obese socially awkward morons and the species would die out because no one would ever get laid.

you don't have things your way for a reason... and trudging through the waste of grey matter on these fan threads, it becomes painfully obvious why...

a little tip.

no one cares what you think, so just get in the seat with your popcorn and stfu like everyone else...

Cheers!

Haliburton

/Mountain Du
//Husker Du
///Cheetos smothered in gravy.

 
2012-12-30 07:24:37 AM  
does Superman help MOAIF use the toilet
 
2012-12-30 07:25:11 AM  

Haliburton Cummings: no one cares what you think, so just get in the seat with your popcorn and stfu like everyone else...


2/10... nobody care what you think either :)
 
2012-12-30 08:12:54 AM  
I just watched Dark Knight Rises last night and I was bored to tears.

Admittedly I'm not a Batman fan, but Dark Knight was at least somewhat enjoyable.
Rises was a muddled, boring mess.

/and I'm not a hater. I liked Begins AND Burton's films. I wanted to like it. It was just boring and felt like snippets glued together into one movie.
 
2012-12-30 08:26:24 AM  

Mentat: Superman is not boring, Superman is not lame, it just requires a certain degree of talent to write for that type of character that most comics writers don't have.


Superman is unsustainable as a character over long periods of time.

That is why he is boring.
 
2012-12-30 08:28:39 AM  

Mr. Coffee Nerves: It is hard to come up with a plausible antagonist when the protagonist can:
A: Move so fast he can draw spewing dongs over the bad guy's face before the bad guy can even start his "I'm going to take over the world" speech.
B: Go back in time and give the bad guy's grandfather a case of condoms AND a cock punch so hard it changes the tides.
C: Simply shove the entire planet into the sun if he gets bored.


Well, they can get some kryptonite and then twist their moustaches while laughing a hammy little laugh.
 
2012-12-30 08:35:30 AM  
Youtube "For the Man Who has Everything".

Absolutely boring. In no wayl a compelling and heartwrenching character study.
 
2012-12-30 08:39:30 AM  

Captain Steroid: You forgot one...

[i657.photobucket.com image 800x800]

\ Nothing "boring" about THAT fight! o.o


Hm.

Accelerator may be an unfair fight for Superman. Hit Superman, he shrugs it off. Hit Accelerator, it ricochets and hits you.

/not sure how making blood flow backwards makes people explode, admittedly
 
2012-12-30 08:40:05 AM  

Wasteland: Picture Brainiac as the logical sci-fi extension of AI research and crimefighting/counterterrorism: an ultra-authoritarian Big Brother that manages to infest most of the world's networks before anyone notices what it's up to. It demands that humanity live in peace as rational beings- and will nuke us, turn drones on us or simply take all our toys away, the moment we make one false move. Like Superman, it's a transhuman intelligence with its own notions of Truth and Justice and a vision for humanity's future. It has no body to punch, no secret core system to heat-vision into slag, and can hold the entire species hostage against Supes and his interference. Even if Brainiac is bluffing on that last point, it may well be that the only way to stop it is to undo the entire Information Age and then start over from untainted systems.


OK--we'll do it! But, one change. We're gonna make Braniac the creation of a sassy, street-wise computer programmer. We're thinking Chris Tucker.
 
2012-12-30 08:41:05 AM  
Just finished watching Superman vs the Elite. Not a bad story, actually.
 
2012-12-30 09:09:15 AM  

Mad_Radhu: Tarl3k: Best Superman graphic novel ever made was Superman: Red Son...

I have a soft spot for A Superman for All Seasons. I really like how it cures the essence of what makes Superman a great character. Until I read this story, I really didn't get Superman as a character.

[i.imgur.com image 700x1075]

[www.blogcdn.com image 400x638]
All Star Superman is also great as well.


Didn't he just stick that toddler right back up on that ledge and leave him?
 
2012-12-30 09:20:38 AM  
The more I think about it a superman movie could be pretty good if the writers can create a villain who sets up a believable Xanatos Gambit. If no matter what superman does results in a poor outcome all his god like powers shouldn't ruin the plot.
 
2012-12-30 09:25:31 AM  

CPT Ethanolic: Batman is easier because of the "dark" past.  It's the same reason that goth poetry is easy.  Selling misery/darkness is always easier than selling hope.


Superman storylines have about the same hope/misery ratio as Batman storylines. If anything, they're more depressing, since the protagonist could solve everything in about half a second but doesn't because he's dumb as a goddamned post.

That said, Superman's probably harder to write for because his continuity issues are significantly more obvious -- most batman storylines are solved by xanatos speed chess, whereas most superman storylines are solved by introducing a new power. While it's technically still a bit weird when Batman doesn't remember a skill or bit of info that was important in a previous storyline, it doesn't have quite the face-palm value of Superman forgetting, say, that he can fly, or freeze things with his breath, or see through walls. It means he's literally the equivalent of a human that's too dumb to breathe.

Superman's also tied up in a lot more restrictive status quo than Batman. Bruce Wayne is quite literally insane, so writing him with various personalities and character arcs without making everyone stop buying the book isn't all that hard, but almost anything that could make supes interesting would be considered a major violation of his character by everyone.

//Additionally, the problem with literal invincible characters is that suspense is impossible so long as they're the good guy. Adding a random maguffin to re-introduce suspense? The worst kind of hack-work. So there's kind of a dilemma there, too.
 
2012-12-30 09:37:22 AM  
Only one person can be cast to save the entire Superman franchise.

Samuel
L
Jackson
 
2012-12-30 09:45:22 AM  

qsblues: Only one person can be cast to save the entire Superman franchise.

Samuel
L
Jackson


They called me Mr Glass...
 
2012-12-30 09:59:16 AM  
If they make this into a trilogy the second movie should be Doomsday and use the Coast City plot as a secondary plotline, but use a real city and leave out the Green Lantern, and replace Mongul with Darkseid. Then in the third movie recover from death, battle Darkseid, but leave out the four Supermen with the exception of Steel. To be played by Shaq of course.
 
2012-12-30 10:19:45 AM  

robohobo: WippitGuud: [i382.photobucket.com image 850x359]


[media.screened.com image 649x320]


Are there any character that attack his mind? Braniac "out-thinks" him, but when the body is invulnerable, hit him in the thoughts.

It's happened now and again, but much like Captain America has trained a great many of the Avengers in hand to hand combat, the Martian Manhunter has trained much of the JLA in telepath protection. But to answer directly, no, Superman has no arch-telepath-foe. He's had villains fark with his mind, Dominus, I suppose.

As long as we're on Superman, a)fark the new 52, and b)i've always been disappointed that it was never addressed that the superman that doomsday killed, the superman for a good half of the post-crisis run, wasn't really superman at all.


Maxwell Lord mind controlled him which caused Wonder Woman to snap his neck.
 
2012-12-30 10:23:16 AM  

WippitGuud: Haliburton Cummings: no one cares what you think, so just get in the seat with your popcorn and stfu like everyone else...

2/10... nobody care what you think either :)


"waahhhhh you are a big pooh pooh head ...waaaahhhhh"

"are you the ..Fatman? NOOOOO?"

you sure showed me..
 
2012-12-30 10:27:24 AM  

WippitGuud: qsblues: Only one person can be cast to save the entire Superman franchise.

Samuel
L
Jackson

They called me Mr Glass...


That movie never happened ... IT NEVER HAPPENED! LALALALALALALAICAN'THEARYOULALALALALANEVERHAPPENEDNEVERHAPPENEDNEVERHA PPENEDLALALALALALA
 
2012-12-30 10:30:03 AM  

Haliburton Cummings: WippitGuud: Haliburton Cummings: no one cares what you think, so just get in the seat with your popcorn and stfu like everyone else...

2/10... nobody care what you think either :)

"waahhhhh you are a big pooh pooh head ...waaaahhhhh"

"are you the ..Fatman? NOOOOO?"

you sure showed me..


Why do you care what I think?
 
2012-12-30 10:37:32 AM  

Darth_Lukecash: If you look at the history of popular characters, you will find that what made them popular is watered down as they became more mainstream.

Mickey Mouse was a bit of a smart ass prankster. Popeye was a rough and tumble sailor. Superman was a bully who forced his liberal agenda on people. (His first major story was to stop ammunition manufacturers from cintinuing a civil war in South America.)

Superman isn't invunerable, nor is he always strongest. He always had a tendency hit first and ask questions later. In all of his adventures he gets knocked out, hurt, restrained... Etc. just like any other superhero.

But superman cannot be defeated due to normal human achievement. Thats why people find him boring. You can shoot Batman. You can't just shoot Superman.

Its why Superman's adventures involve mad scientist, aliens, and supernatural elements.


Goes back way further than that, look into the history of Robin Hood. Originally he was a yeoman, never had any ties to royalty. But the story was changed, to make him more palatable to the ruling class.
 
2012-12-30 10:51:00 AM  

Jim_Callahan: CPT Ethanolic: Batman is easier because of the "dark" past.  It's the same reason that goth poetry is easy.  Selling misery/darkness is always easier than selling hope.

Superman storylines have about the same hope/misery ratio as Batman storylines. If anything, they're more depressing, since the protagonist could solve everything in about half a second but doesn't because he's dumb as a goddamned post.......


I give you Superman: Peace on Earth. The real dilemna for Clark is that despite all of his physical powers, he's incapable of fixing the root cause of all strife - the evil lurking in the human heart.

Jim_Callahan:
//Additionally, the problem with literal invincible characters is that suspense is impossible so long as they're the good guy. Adding a random maguffin to re-introduce suspense? The worst kind of hack-work. So there's kind of a dilemma there, too.


Doomsday was invented becdause at the time there was no character in the DCU that Kal-EL couldn't punch out. This lesson was not lost on the DCAU creators, where Kryptonians in general are shown to less able to take a punch than other continuities. Even better, there seems to be a recent trend among the creative types in how Clark is depicted, and that is that among humans he is a demi-god, but among other Kryptonians he is decidedly average, meaning that in any fight it's really his heart and experience that win out, not his powers.

texdent: robohobo: WippitGuud: [i382.photobucket.com image 850x359]


Are there any character that attack his mind? Braniac "out-thinks" him, but when the body is invulnerable, hit him in the thoughts....
Maxwell Lord mind controlled him which caused Wonder Woman to snap his neck.


What made that seen so unbelieveably effective was the stark demonstration of just how much stronger Kal-el is than Dianna. He broke her arm just sorta because and the fear portrayed really drove home just what a danger he really could be on Earth, and just how much control he has to maintain over himself....and back to the DCAU and the "World Made of Cardboard" speech.
 
2012-12-30 10:54:45 AM  
Lots of great stuff in this thread but one of the things that I've always found interesting about Superman isn't Superman, but Clarke Kent. THAT'S the real Jor-El. A humble guy that's just wants to get on with his life who happens to be in love with crack reporter Lois Lane.

Where this story connects from a human, dramatic point of view is before Lane knows his secret identity. Kent can't tell her who he really is even though she's always pining after Superman. The poor bastard is in a love triangle with himself. What's makes it dramatic is that this is unrequited on two levels- Lane doesn't love Kent so they aren't going to get it on and Superman's too noble for a relationship.

He can be or do almost anything but he can't have the woman he loves.
 
2012-12-30 11:02:10 AM  
Has anyone said Superman is lame yet?
 
2012-12-30 11:15:33 AM  

meanmutton: Bill Frist: downstairs: CPT Ethanolic: Batman is easier because of the "dark" past.  It's the same reason that goth poetry is easy.  Selling misery/darkness is always easier than selling hope.

Never thought of it that way, good analogy.

Pure nonsense. Hallmark cards sell plenty well. Most people love the corniest, easiest, happiest shiat (thus why even "dark" hollywood films have to have happy endings)

Memento, Insomnia, and The Prestige all has pretty farked up endings, all done by Nolan.


Are you disagreeing that most hollywood films have happy endings?

Anyway, I think The Prestige was Nolan's best film. Good stuff and no dumb batman voice.
 
2012-12-30 11:25:57 AM  

Lord Binky: "But Superman has a corny personality," you say. Newsflash: everyone did in the Silver Age. Yes, even the wonderful Batman, Iron Man, or even Thor all were corny by today's standards then. DC's just been too stupid to shake Supes out of it like the rest.


No, not really.

You are correct that the writing of the silver age characters is probably corny, or at least campy, by today's standards for almost any hero. But Superman has always been a goody two shoes boy scout with no real flaws, no real doubts, and no real complexity.

On the flip side, Batman always had a dark tortured past, Iron Man was always a snarky dick, Spiderman was always insecure and haunted by his past, Hulk was always this duality of madness and intelligence, etc. etc.

It is totally possible to write a cool story that features superman. But it is almost impossible to make Superman himself interesting as a character. You make Superman stories interesting by either being metafictional about it (like Alan Moore always does, or with something like Red Son), or you make a fun story about crazy monsters and evils and Superman is the god that defeats him.

Lord Binky: He's no more powerful than, say, Thor (who can fly and shoot lightning) or the Hulk (who isn't harmed by tank shells).


Well you are picking the two most powerful Marvel heroes here, but Hulk has no other powers and the traditional hulk is basically a wild beast when he has his strength. Now Hulk normally has intelligence too, but he still loses that intelligence when he really goes into a rage. I never really bothered with Thor because I also find him boring, but I don't remember Thor being super intelligent.

Superman, otoh, is normally written with near Batman-levels of intelligence in deducuction, Lex Luthor levels of intelligence in science (his fortress is full of robotic doubles and he spends his time working on crazy scientific problems), Hulk level strength, Flash level speed, flight that works in space, laser eyes, freeze breathe, and whatever else I'm forgetting.
 
2012-12-30 11:34:33 AM  

born_yesterday: OK--we'll do it! But, one change. We're gonna make Braniac the creation of a sassy, street-wise computer programmer. We're thinking Chris Tucker.


It's too bad Richard Pryor is dead.
 
2012-12-30 11:37:07 AM  
They should definitely be developing Darkseid as a movie villain because of the effect he has on Superman.

Supes' relationship with Lex Luthor is complex. He hates and distrusts him, while simultaneously trying to save him from himself.

His relationship with Darkseid is nothing like that. Darkseid makes Supes farking crazy. As soon as he so much as sees Darkseid he starts boiling over with rage and his brain switches off and he starts making mistakes. This largely comes from the fact that Darkie managed to take control of Supes a few times in the past and use him to do very naughty things. He's the only person Supes not only seriously considers but actually threatens to kill on a regular basis.

In contrast, Darkseid could barely be more indifferent to it all. In true M. Bison fashion, he sees Supes' insane rage at being used the way he was, but to Darkie it was just Tuesday.

Darkseid should be the next movie villain.
 
2012-12-30 11:44:35 AM  

PIP_the_TROLL: Darkseid should be the next movie villain.


If they ever manage to get it going, supposedly he'll be in the Justice League movie.
 
2012-12-30 11:49:18 AM  

PIP_the_TROLL: They should definitely be developing Darkseid as a movie villain because of the effect he has on Superman.

Supes' relationship with Lex Luthor is complex. He hates and distrusts him, while simultaneously trying to save him from himself.

His relationship with Darkseid is nothing like that. Darkseid makes Supes farking crazy. As soon as he so much as sees Darkseid he starts boiling over with rage and his brain switches off and he starts making mistakes. This largely comes from the fact that Darkie managed to take control of Supes a few times in the past and use him to do very naughty things. He's the only person Supes not only seriously considers but actually threatens to kill on a regular basis.

In contrast, Darkseid could barely be more indifferent to it all. In true M. Bison fashion, he sees Supes' insane rage at being used the way he was, but to Darkie it was just Tuesday.

Darkseid should be the next movie villain.


"Any minute now, Brainiac is going to explode. And guess what? You're going with him."
 
2012-12-30 12:13:37 PM  
To be fair Christopher Nolan made Batman boring too.
 
2012-12-30 12:34:41 PM  

TeddyRooseveltsMustache: To be fair Christopher Nolan made Batman boring too.


He did make The Joker interesting, though.
 
2012-12-30 01:05:19 PM  

Mister Peejay: TeddyRooseveltsMustache: To be fair Christopher Nolan made Batman boring too.

He did make The Joker interesting, though.


Hardly. He turned a magnificent study in psychosis and casual evil into a Die Hard villain with a facepaint fetish.
 
2012-12-30 01:37:11 PM  

Bill Frist: Lord Binky: "But Superman has a corny personality," you say. Newsflash: everyone did in the Silver Age. Yes, even the wonderful Batman, Iron Man, or even Thor all were corny by today's standards then. DC's just been too stupid to shake Supes out of it like the rest.

No, not really.

You are correct that the writing of the silver age characters is probably corny, or at least campy, by today's standards for almost any hero. But Superman has always been a goody two shoes boy scout with no real flaws, no real doubts, and no real complexity.

On the flip side, Batman always had a dark tortured past, Iron Man was always a snarky dick, Spiderman was always insecure and haunted by his past, Hulk was always this duality of madness and intelligence, etc. etc.

It is totally possible to write a cool story that features superman. But it is almost impossible to make Superman himself interesting as a character. You make Superman stories interesting by either being metafictional about it (like Alan Moore always does, or with something like Red Son), or you make a fun story about crazy monsters and evils and Superman is the god that defeats him.

Lord Binky: He's no more powerful than, say, Thor (who can fly and shoot lightning) or the Hulk (who isn't harmed by tank shells).

Well you are picking the two most powerful Marvel heroes here, but Hulk has no other powers and the traditional hulk is basically a wild beast when he has his strength. Now Hulk normally has intelligence too, but he still loses that intelligence when he really goes into a rage. I never really bothered with Thor because I also find him boring, but I don't remember Thor being super intelligent.

Superman, otoh, is normally written with near Batman-levels of intelligence in deducuction, Lex Luthor levels of intelligence in science (his fortress is full of robotic doubles and he spends his time working on crazy scientific problems), Hulk level strength, Flash level speed, flight that works in space, laser eyes, freeze breathe, and whatever else I'm forgetting.


This is why I think he should return to his original power set and level. Again, no flight and no heat vision right off the bat. His powers derive from Krypton's high gravity. He would still have the genius element though.

So let's make him interesting in some way. I think it starts with making him psychologically no better than any normal person. He has a good sense of right and wrong instilled by the Kents, he has the power to do much right and good. This is where I like the idea of reintroducing his old devil-may-care, mildly roughneck style from way back when.

To illustrate my point, consider the only member of the Avengers to kill someone in the movie: Captain America. He hails from a time of war and a time in which people were raised with a simpler sense of right and wrong. Just because someone has a simplistic moral view of the world doesn't mean the world actually is that simple. Every other Avenger is much more capable of killing people than him, but he's the one who throws a guy out of the helicarrier to his death. He didn't do it with intent per se so much as he treated the situation like combat because that's what he knows. Thing is, that's how most Golden Age characters acted. Death, injury, and the like was just a part of the game if you were a mook. It didn't dwell on the morality of killing like today's comics do.

You take a Superman who is more liberal with his powers and you have a guy that is like us - who likes having the power to fight bad guys. But there are consequences to such irresponsibility. A hero who kills and easily causes collateral damage may have their heart in the right place, but it will frighten people around him given time. It makes him imperfect.

But wait, there's more. He's the last of his race. His planet was destroyed and Earth is his home. With the power he has (however reduced) and his simplistic morality, he might feel he must protect it. All of it. But he really is only one man and has to deal with having to choose who he helps and who he doesn't.

Then let's consider how the hell he juggles his professional life with his superhero life. A guy still has to sleep, right? How does he choose to socialize with Lois and Jimmy instead of searching for crimes to stop? Come to think of it, Supes could take a page out of the show Dexter to show how much thought must be put into that. Being Superman is not as easy as it's been made to look. A Superman movie needs to dwell on those things because that's the kind of stuff real people would have to think about every day if they wanted to be like him. We need to stop watching Superman and need to start being put in his boots.
 
2012-12-30 01:42:12 PM  
Goddamn I'm long-winded about this subject. Supes isn't even my favorite Superhero. I will also clarify that I don't think Superman needs to be more interesting than others brought up; he just needs to be interesting at all to people.

Batman, Iron Man, Spider-Man; these characters could have all been written like Superman, free of character flaws and real problems. They would be regarded the same if so, if lower powered, but I doubt "at least he's not as powerful as Superman" is a winning selling point if that's all you got.
 
2012-12-30 02:54:50 PM  

Bill Frist: Superman, otoh, is normally written with near Batman-levels of intelligence in deducuction, Lex Luthor levels of intelligence in science (his fortress is full of robotic doubles and he spends his time working on crazy scientific problems), Hulk level strength, Flash level speed, flight that works in space, laser eyes, freeze breathe, and whatever else I'm forgetting.


I'm not a Superman fan by any stretch of the imagination, but as I understand it, John Byrne declared that Superman was a "Jack of all trades, but a master of none" in the late 80's. The powers were strictly defined, and limited to a certain degree. He was 2nd best at everything, meaning there was always somebody who could beat him in a certain category:

The Flash was faster. The Hulk was stronger (or whatever the DC equivalent). Batman was smarter (and actually knew how to kill him).

He also didn't have whatever power they cared to invent, like that stupid S logo net thing from Superman 2.
 
2012-12-30 03:24:42 PM  

kroonermanblack: Mentat: Superman is not boring, Superman is not lame, it just requires a certain degree of talent to write for that type of character that most comics writers don't have.

Superman is lame. He's a full fledged god. He has no power limitations, has every power, and is completely immune to everything but magic rocks or magic.

Unless we're taking away all the super powers that make the escapism cool, super man is a tits up boring character because he's a GOD. There's no training or difficulty for him to overcome, it's all worthless challenges. And when he DOES have a fight? It's farking super-sayan Dragon Ball Z levels of stupid 'blowing up the sun to power punch' strength. Those characters are tepidly boring to watch because there's no real risk or harm to them, so why care? Especially since he has EVERY super power known to man, and has it better than the premier exemplar of it anyway.


Does it matter? Batman could be taken out by a blow to the back of the head, if any of his villains weren't so crazy they've never thought of it. In a relative sense, he has story immunity on par with superman. Hell, he's survived one of Darkseid's Omega beams, which pretty much guarantee oblivion to even superman level characters. Pair superman up against a stronger threat than a real estate swindle and it gets interesting. Think of superman getting played during the Cadmus arc of justice league.
 
2012-12-30 03:26:01 PM  

Malacon: Ryker's Peninsula: The problem with Superman isn't that the only thing that can hurt him is Kryptonite, or that the only memorable bad buy is Lex Luther, the problem is that Truth and Justice are no longer part of the American way.

Which is why What's So Funny About Truth, Justice & the American Way? was so good. It tackles that idea head on.

What if Superman played by everyone elses rules?


The superman vs. The elite cartoon was great at showing how frightening superman could be if he didn't want to be a boy scout anymore.
 
2012-12-30 03:26:31 PM  

blue_2501: Bill Frist: Superman, otoh, is normally written with near Batman-levels of intelligence in deducuction, Lex Luthor levels of intelligence in science (his fortress is full of robotic doubles and he spends his time working on crazy scientific problems), Hulk level strength, Flash level speed, flight that works in space, laser eyes, freeze breathe, and whatever else I'm forgetting.

I'm not a Superman fan by any stretch of the imagination, but as I understand it, John Byrne declared that Superman was a "Jack of all trades, but a master of none" in the late 80's. The powers were strictly defined, and limited to a certain degree. He was 2nd best at everything, meaning there was always somebody who could beat him in a certain category:

The Flash was faster. The Hulk was stronger (or whatever the DC equivalent). Batman was smarter (and actually knew how to kill him).

He also didn't have whatever power they cared to invent, like that stupid S logo net thing from Superman 2.


I'm sure that most writers follow this, but being the SECOND smartest and the SECOND fastest and the SECOND strongest (I'm not actually sure who is stronger than superman, but some nerd here probably knows), and SECOND best freeze breathe, and SECOND best lazer eyes, and SECOND best flight, and SECOND best x-ray vision, etc.

is still making him be so all around powerful, and with such a wide array of powers, that his victory is never really in doubt AND there is never really any tension or suspense about the outcomes.

As someone said above, too often superman plots just revolve around Superman kind of FORGETTING his powers. So he fights some robots or whatever for 80% of the issue and then at the end is like "Oh yeah, maybe my freeze breath will stop them" and then wins. Or he is trying to find someone and then at the end of the issue is like "oh, whoops, I can just x-ray vision for them".
 
2012-12-30 03:28:03 PM  

PIP_the_TROLL: DarkPascual: how interesting could be the story of a man that is pushed to be darker by enemies increasingly violent and dangerous and a world that keeps telling him that he is dumb and naive?

They already tested that, in "Superman vs. The Elite". Check it out.

When Superman lowers himself to the level of his enemies, it's terrifying.

DarkPascual: As much as I really like heroes like Batman or Iron Man or anti-heroes like Deadpool or Wolverine, I'm kinda tired of the cliches that come along the dark, brooding and cynical type of character. Superman and Captain America probably aren't the coolest, but they are good men, and those characters are needed too.

Another guy after my own heart. My favorite comic characters are Supes, Cap and Cyclops (well, pre-2000 cyclops that wasn't destroyed by the writers). I like the good guys. Flawed is easy to write. Being a stand up guy is hard.


Oops, came late to the thread, glad to see you have this covered. It is more of a challenge to do Superman right because it takes more imagination. Batman is just a boy in a playsuit, crying for mommy and daddy.
 
2012-12-30 03:31:06 PM  

Lord Binky: But wait, there's more. He's the last of his race. His planet was destroyed and Earth is his home. With the power he has (however reduced) and his simplistic morality, he might feel he must protect it. All of it. But he really is only one man and has to deal with having to choose who he helps and who he doesn't.


This is like the only interesting thing about Superman as a character, but no one ever really stuck to it. Superman has a whole CITY of Kryptonians he hangs out with, and he has a bunch of other Kryptonians that he is constantly fighting and putting in the phantom zone.

Lord Binky: Then let's consider how the hell he juggles his professional life with his superhero life. A guy still has to sleep, right? How does he choose to socialize with Lois and Jimmy instead of searching for crimes to stop? Come


He probably doesn't have to sleep, but I agree that the morality of Superman ever living an actual life instead of constantly saving peopel could be kind of interesting to look at. Although the same could be done with basically any hero, and most Marvel characters have spent time struggling with that... especially Spiderman.
 
2012-12-30 03:36:48 PM  

blue_2501: Superman is ultra boring and mega lame. Why? Because you have very few weaknesses, all of the stories are going to revolve around those weaknesses, over and over and over and over again. I mean, have you seen a Superman movie that DIDN'T involve Kryptonite?


You just have to write a different kind of story. The threat should never be against Superman. The threat should always be against SOMEBODY ELSE and Superman has to stop it. That and tone down the stupid power inflation like "I hear everything" -- just because you have xray vision and "super hearing" shouldn't mean you can see and hear the entire world at once. If he still has to decide "where to be" because he isn't infinitely fast, and "what to look for" because he DOESN'T see everything, then you have conflict that requires resolution. If you realize that he CAN'T hold a collapsing building together -- which is logical even given his powers -- then you realize there are interesting stories to be told.

Superman is like Columbo. You can say Columbo is a lame boring mystery because both you and Columbo always know who the murderer is from the beginning, but you're wrong. A Columbo mystery just works by different rules. In a Columbo mystery, the mystery is how Columbo will prove the killer did it.
 
2012-12-30 03:41:25 PM  
I still think the right way to do a Superman movie is to stop trying to force Superman to be a dark/complex/interesting character, and just use him as he is used best in comics: as a a goofy fun character who fights wacky enemies.

Have him fly around with Krypto and fight Bizarro and deal with Brainiac using 8 different kinds of kryptonite on him. shiat like that.

Not only is that the right way to use superman, but it also would make the movie stand out among the current crop of superhero films that all feel really similar in tone.
 
2012-12-30 06:24:44 PM  
I think the answer is a 30's era Superman film, with a drastically depowered Superman. Maybe by the end he learns to fly, He should be able to be hurt, but stronger than the average man.

Or fark it, just reboot the Rocketeer. He's really cool.
 
2012-12-30 07:10:54 PM  

Hebalo: I think the answer is a 30's era Superman film, with a drastically depowered Superman. Maybe by the end he learns to fly, He should be able to be hurt, but stronger than the average man.....


Funny you should mention that.....

Kevin Smith talks about Superman
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgYhLIThTvk
 
2012-12-30 07:17:34 PM  

jimmyjackfunk: jj325: I think that a part of the problem is that to a whole generation, and to a lot of other people, this

[scrapetv.com image 283x350]

is Superman.  Christopher Reeve owned that role, and his image has become so closely associated with Superman, that it's hard to get people on the side of a different actor.

^THIS. This is the Superman I remember. Of course the animated series I got used to hearing Tim Daly's voice but that is a different matter. When we rented The Dark Knight Rises, there was a trailer for this movie and the wife was echoing my sentiment, "There will only be ONE Superman and he is dead now"

/of course I think one of the better comics I remember reading was something along the lines of a "what if" storyline where what if Kal-El had crashed just outside Gotham and the Waynes had found him, decided to not have children and adopt him. One of the images I can remember was in the alley when they get shot, he gets pissed and pretty much burns them up with his heat vision.


IIRC, the story is an DC Elseworlds comic called "Speeding Bullets".
 
2012-12-30 08:24:09 PM  

Lord Binky: Then let's consider how the hell he juggles his professional life with his superhero life. A guy still has to sleep, right? How does he choose to socialize with Lois and Jimmy instead of searching for crimes to stop? Come to think of it, Supes could take a page out of the show Dexter to show how much thought must be put into that. Being Superman is not as easy as it's been made to look. A Superman movie needs to dwell on those things because that's the kind of stuff real people would have to think about every day if they wanted to be like him. We need to stop watching Superman and need to start being put in his boots.


Astro City #1 had a great story that followed a day in the life of their Superman analog The Samaritan, who wound up being near burnout because he was constantly running around trying to save everyone all the time. He simply had no time to have a real life, and he just couldn't let a single person come to harm if he could help it. At the end, you really wound up feeling sorry for him because his powers and abilities trapped him in a very real way.
 
2012-12-30 09:39:17 PM  
I would love to see a superman movie that takes a real look at superman. Some real superman issues I have wondered about include:

How did superman decide to be clark? I mean his human parents raised him to help people as much as possible right? So how did he decide that being a bumbling reporter or hanging out with Jimmy Olsen was ok when there were people who were dying that he could easily save. And how does he feel about sitting on his ass or going out with Lois when people are dying.

And how does he decide who to save? I mean if he hears two people call out at the same time, who does he pick?

And what would someone with superman's powers be doing in a real world? I mean why stop bank robbers when he could be doing things like saving people from earth quakes and hurricanes. I mean if superman was alive would things like the Japan earthquake and nuclear meltdown, or hurricane sandy have happened (or would they have killed anyone)?

And how does he decide when to intervene? Would he take action in Syria, or something like Iran's nuclear program? And if intervening in those kinds of things is ok what about something smaller like maybe he doesn't like US spy satellites so he starts destroying them. Or maybe he starts fixing infrastructure in the US himself because he doesn't think the government is doing a good job. And if he is doing those kind of thinks how far does it go before he is actually ruling a country.

Those kind of things would interest me.
 
2012-12-30 10:20:37 PM  

Mad_Radhu: Lord Binky: Then let's consider how the hell he juggles his professional life with his superhero life. A guy still has to sleep, right? How does he choose to socialize with Lois and Jimmy instead of searching for crimes to stop? Come to think of it, Supes could take a page out of the show Dexter to show how much thought must be put into that. Being Superman is not as easy as it's been made to look. A Superman movie needs to dwell on those things because that's the kind of stuff real people would have to think about every day if they wanted to be like him. We need to stop watching Superman and need to start being put in his boots.

Astro City #1 had a great story that followed a day in the life of their Superman analog The Samaritan, who wound up being near burnout because he was constantly running around trying to save everyone all the time. He simply had no time to have a real life, and he just couldn't let a single person come to harm if he could help it. At the end, you really wound up feeling sorry for him because his powers and abilities trapped him in a very real way.


I haven't read Astro City in years. I forgot about that story. Such a good comic.


That reminds me; someone mentioned that Superman doesn't have a "Dark Knight Returns." He does when you think about it; it's called "Kingdom Come." Rename it "The Man of Steel Returns" in your mind when you read it and it suddenly is rather similar to DKR.
 
2012-12-31 02:39:58 AM  

Mentat: kroonermanblack: Superman is lame. He's a full fledged god. He has no power limitations, has every power, and is completely immune to everything but magic rocks or magic.

Unless we're taking away all the super powers that make the escapism cool, super man is a tits up boring character because he's a GOD. There's no training or difficulty for him to overcome, it's all worthless challenges. And when he DOES have a fight? It's farking super-sayan Dragon Ball Z levels of stupid 'blowing up the sun to power punch' strength. Those characters are tepidly boring to watch because there's no real risk or harm to them, so why care? Especially since he has EVERY super power known to man, and has it better than the premier exemplar of it anyway.

Imagine for a moment how much concentration is required for Clark Kent to shake someone's hand without crushing it into paste.  Or to kiss Lois without crushing her face.  or opening a car door without ripping it off.  Superman doesn't get an off-day.  He doesn't get to daydream or let his mind wander.  He has to maintain that level of concentration 24/7, even in the midst of battle.  This is a man who can literally crack the planet in half, and yet he chooses not to.  Why?  Because Superman's limits have never been physical, they are moral and ethical.  This is a man who holds himself to a superhuman standard of conduct not simply because he wants to, but because he has to for the safety of everyone around him.  Moreover, he knows that his greatest power is the ability to inspire humanity to greatness, but he has to exercise that power cautiously so that he doesn't instead make humanity feel small and weak in his presence.  It's his greatest strength and his most glaring weakness.  It's how his greatest enemies attack him.  And that's where you find the best stories about Superman.


A-farking-men. A few people have distiller what is the essence of Superman has to be in order to make him work or intriguing. Do you need insane brawling? Of course. Mindless violence though doesn't carry enough weight. To tackle Superman you have to hurt him where it counts, his humanity. From personal experiences, I can get behind what it might feel like to be different from everyone else. To amp it up to the level of Supeeman though, you're saying the only thing that connects him to humanity as a whole is choice. His choice to be good, due to feeling love and having something important is what the crux of him is. In an odd way, the Joker's plan in The Dark Knight (not execution wise, just the basic idea) is where Superman would shine. Take from Superman his humanity and break him the only way you can. Making the, "right," choice is rarely ever easy. It's usually the exact opposite. That is what makes Superman so potentially great. You have the powers of a god, you can crush everything, yet you actively choose to take the weakest aspects of humanity and make them a beacon of hope.

His power can offer him nothing if he chooses to love humanity as a whole. He will always be an outsider looking in. It is always shocking how many writers fail to push the hard boundaries within Superman.

I always wanted to write a comic of What If Superman Was Born to a Broken Home in Detroit? Feeling unloved, unwanted, filled with spite and ultimately a dick. It would be comedy and nothing more. But it does offer up perspective on what the essence of Superman is. He represents what we should all aspire to become in terms of morality.
 
2012-12-31 03:36:22 AM  
I hope the Superman movie is good. I got bored with Batman a while ago. I was upset with how they botched the Green Lantern movie.
 
2012-12-31 05:32:19 AM  
i think on some level you could say that Superman only work in what he has, but fails because people always want more. instead of just enjoying what happens in the story (which goes to the previous "death of Superman video" and vampires can die any way you write it), people ask for more. if people kept asking those questions of any literary arc it would be the same. most are finite, so people stop wondering, they die away, or are just assumed to be "suspension of disbelief"

to put it another way. no one says that Batman should take over Gotham with his helpers and robots and Gordon, and then Gotham would be super safe (or just kill everyone bad, but then what stories are left to tell?)

some one should do a comic panel of someone screaming for Superman to help, and him replying (with an up close shot of him in a bordered panel) saying, "sorry, i am trapped here"

i will always believe that i had more "belief" in what Superman did that what Batman did. Superman? who knows what he can do (or what happens between "panels"?). Batman? he's a human, and no one has done what he's done, so that's skeptical.

probably rambled or missed a point. 'night!
ps. Kurt Busiek had a good line on this that i think influenced me.
 
2012-12-31 06:45:57 AM  
Easy to reboot:

1. No suit
2. No flying
3. Giant spider in 3rd act
 
2012-12-31 08:15:48 AM  

PIP_the_TROLL: Darkseid should be the next movie villain.


The shorts
 
2012-12-31 09:25:53 AM  

phattybeefpatty: I always wanted to write a comic of What If Superman Was Born to a Broken Home in Detroit? Feeling unloved, unwanted, filled with spite and ultimately a dick. It would be comedy and nothing more. But it does offer up perspective on what the essence of Superman is. He represents what we should all aspire to become in terms of morality


That's basically the comic Irredeemable. The Plutonian TRIES to be a good guy, but then the stress of it all causes him to eventually snap and lash out at the entire world, with a huge body count as a result.
 
2012-12-31 11:45:16 AM  

Mad_Radhu: phattybeefpatty: I always wanted to write a comic of What If Superman Was Born to a Broken Home in Detroit? Feeling unloved, unwanted, filled with spite and ultimately a dick. It would be comedy and nothing more. But it does offer up perspective on what the essence of Superman is. He represents what we should all aspire to become in terms of morality

That's basically the comic Irredeemable. The Plutonian TRIES to be a good guy, but then the stress of it all causes him to eventually snap and lash out at the entire world, with a huge body count as a result.


It was also the movie Hancock, if they didn't forget the premise partway through and decide to make it about drilling some guy's wife
 
2012-12-31 12:41:21 PM  

Champion of the Sun: Wish they would just make a live action Dark Night Returns already. Only convincing foe for Superman that I've ever seen. John Hamm can finally play Superman. Not sure about Bruce though. Can't imagine someone who looks both like a grizzled crime fighter and a rich playboy. Mickey Rourke could be a convincing Batman, but a horrible Bruce Wayne.


Bruce Campbell!
 
2012-12-31 01:27:28 PM  

Jizz Master Zero: I'm sick to shiat of Wolverine and Deadpool and their like, and this idea that it's only got ethos or pathos if it's grimdark. I reread this...

[media.tumblr.com image 356x500]

...over Christmas. It was an amazing reminder of why Superman's always been my hero.

I'm glad that someone mentioned Superman vs. The Elite. Awesome movie. The animated DC movies have knocked it out of the park for the most part. Also check out the adaptation of All-Star Superman. A couple of the greatest Superman films made right there.


Agreed, the animated DCU and Alex Ross' works (Kingdom Come, esp.) shows why Superman will always be the odd man; just because he wants to make the world a better place doesn't mean the world will let him, and for him to force it is to embrace fascism.

One of my favorite reboots of the franchise in the 90s implied that Superman can see an aura around living beings, and it causes him emotional and physical pain to see someone die. Hence his absolute reluctance throughout many evolutions of the character that he does not kill. When he does, and then only as an accidental result of self defense (Alan Moore's "Whatever Happened To The Man of Tomorrow?", where Supes tries to stop an insane Mr. Myxzptlk with the Phantom Zone projector, which kills him), he immediately punishes himself by removing his powers and going into exile.

This in addition to the earlier posts that he has to constantly be vigilant of the fragility of other beings and things around him, how he has to literally transform into the weak and mild-mannered Clark Kent almost as a check of his power. I'll stop there before rolling into the speech from Kill Bill, but it truly has to be tormenting to live in a world that you could destroy at a mere thought. To paraphrase the line from Superman/Batman, "he shoots fire from the skies, and it is difficult not to think of him as a god. And how fortunate we all are that it does not occur to him."

The DCAU and further animated movies of Superman to me justify all we need for the character. There are action scenes that they can get away with that seem garish or ridiculously fake in live-action. I have no idea how this new movie will be, if they try to start new with the origin story or keep rehashing the Donnerverse origin, which was in essence the homage of Superman Returns. I do find him to be a compelling character, albeit one which makes for poor drama.
 
2012-12-31 11:18:05 PM  
I'm calling it right now: Man of Steel will be better than Batman Begins.
 
2013-01-01 09:22:18 AM  

Mad_Radhu: Lord Binky: Then let's consider how the hell he juggles his professional life with his superhero life. A guy still has to sleep, right? How does he choose to socialize with Lois and Jimmy instead of searching for crimes to stop? Come to think of it, Supes could take a page out of the show Dexter to show how much thought must be put into that. Being Superman is not as easy as it's been made to look. A Superman movie needs to dwell on those things because that's the kind of stuff real people would have to think about every day if they wanted to be like him. We need to stop watching Superman and need to start being put in his boots.

Astro City #1 had a great story that followed a day in the life of their Superman analog The Samaritan, who wound up being near burnout because he was constantly running around trying to save everyone all the time. He simply had no time to have a real life, and he just couldn't let a single person come to harm if he could help it. At the end, you really wound up feeling sorry for him because his powers and abilities trapped him in a very real way.


Irredeemable. The Plutonian gets tired of being expected to devote his life to saving humanity and goes nuts. And nobody can do a damn thing about it.

The Boys. Keeping capes in line, one beating-to-death at a time.
 
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