If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(The Detroit_News)   Ambulance-chaser laments new Michigan standard for slip-and-fall is now "look out for the ice, stupid" instead of "find a patch of ice, slip, win lottery"   (detroitnews.com) divider line 62
    More: Cool, Michigan  
•       •       •

9165 clicks; posted to Main » on 29 Dec 2012 at 2:44 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



62 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

Archived thread

First | « | 1 | 2 | » | Last | Show all
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2012-12-28 09:14:46 PM  
Slip-and-fall lawsuits, once a staple for injury attorneys, have become extremely difficult in Michigan courts, especially after another strict standard was set last summer by the state Supreme Court. Feet flying in the air because of water, ice or snow? Case dismissed - unless someone absolutely can't avoid the hazard.

Michigan must be trying to offset Massachusetts, which changed its standard in 2010 from "did the defendant put the ice there?" to "does the defendant have deep pockets?"
 
2012-12-29 02:30:13 AM  

ZAZ: Slip-and-fall lawsuits, once a staple for injury attorneys, have become extremely difficult in Michigan courts, especially after another strict standard was set last summer by the state Supreme Court. Feet flying in the air because of water, ice or snow? Case dismissed - unless someone absolutely can't avoid the hazard.

Michigan must be trying to offset Massachusetts, which changed its standard in 2010 from "did the defendant put the ice there?" to "does the defendant have deep pockets?"


Mind you, the standard here was never "did the defendant put the ice there," so I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to as a change.
 
2012-12-29 02:47:05 AM  
Just remember... CALL SAM!!!
 
2012-12-29 02:57:13 AM  
Part of the court's reasoning seemed to draw from the fact that Michigan is a winter state ... it gets real cold, it gets icy, y'all be careful. (OK, they don't say "y'all.")

My question is, Could such reasoning work in some part of the country that doesn't normally get treacherous conditions, but CAN occasionally?

For example, I bet north Georgia doesn't have a lot of sand and road salt lying around for pedestrian walkway maintenance.
 
2012-12-29 02:58:49 AM  
When we walks on ice and snow, We don't know it's slippery?
 
2012-12-29 02:58:51 AM  

jeffrey626: Just remember... CALL SAM!!!


1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-12-29 02:59:58 AM  
I stopped reading when I say that a Cooley "professor" was interviewed.
 
2012-12-29 03:07:55 AM  
"Michigan, being above the 42nd parallel of north latitude, is prone to winter,"

Bench gold, right there.
 
2012-12-29 03:11:18 AM  
Worst slip-n-fall I ever did happened as I was leaving a Dr's appointment. Slipped like I was a cartoon character or something, legs completely over head, fell and cracked my head on a corner edge of the sidewalk leaving the entry area. Good thing it was just a short trip back up some stairs, I had no idea even really shallow head wounds bled that much.
 
2012-12-29 03:13:42 AM  
Ladies and gentlemen take my advice.

Pull down your pants and slide on the ice!

/I saw three people fall on Xmas eve
 
2012-12-29 03:20:16 AM  

illannoyin: Ladies and gentlemen take my advice.

Pull down your pants and slide on the ice my face!


/easily amused
 
2012-12-29 03:21:53 AM  
Ice is a danger and care should be taken.  Retailers do have to maintain their property adequately, however, that doesn't mean that everyone who slipped and fell aren't at fault.  While I was out shopping one day when there was some ice on the sidewalks I saw one bright kid decide that hey, I want to slide on that ice!  So he took a running start, slide across the ice on his feet and then promptly faceplanted on concrete when he hit the end of the ice.  Looked like he broke his nose.  Of course, the kids mom was wailing about her hurt kid.  My response was: why did you encourage your kid to slide across the ice in an area that isn't designed for it?  She got very flustered about it.
 
2012-12-29 03:24:55 AM  

gadian: Worst slip-n-fall I ever did happened as I was leaving a Dr's appointment. Slipped like I was a cartoon character or something, legs completely over head, fell and cracked my head on a corner edge of the sidewalk leaving the entry area. Good thing it was just a short trip back up some stairs, I had no idea even really shallow head wounds bled that much.


Deep head wound usually leak brains.

But yeah, scalp wounds are very messy.
 
2012-12-29 03:26:48 AM  

SpaceyCat: Ice is a danger and care should be taken.  Retailers do have to maintain their property adequately, however, that doesn't mean that everyone who slipped and fell aren't at fault.  While I was out shopping one day when there was some ice on the sidewalks I saw one bright kid decide that hey, I want to slide on that ice!  So he took a running start, slide across the ice on his feet and then promptly faceplanted on concrete when he hit the end of the ice.  Looked like he broke his nose.  Of course, the kids mom was wailing about her hurt kid.  My response was: why did you encourage your kid to slide across the ice in an area that isn't designed for it?  She got very flustered about it.


So sue the guy who shoveled his sidewalk.  The bare concrete is what made the kid fall!
 
2012-12-29 03:34:33 AM  
The court system sucks, they reward the stupid too many times, stupidity is being given a pass when it should be punished.
 
2012-12-29 03:39:56 AM  
This is why I don't shovel the snow off the sidewalk in front of my house. If it looks clear but actually has a thin layer of ice built back up, then some idiot court will blame me for "inadequate" care of the sidewalk even though I shoveled as best I could. But if it's obviously not been shoveled in the first place, then it's your own damn fault for thinking it was safe and walking on it.

Also it lets me stay the hell inside on cold days.
 
2012-12-29 04:44:15 AM  

HotWingAgenda: illannoyin: Ladies and gentlemen take my advice.

Pull down your pants and slide on the ice my face!

/easily amused


Pull down your pants and do the Funky Chicken

/ love me some wedding dances
 
2012-12-29 05:00:44 AM  
This is why I don't shovel the snow off the sidewalk in front of my house. If it looks clear but actually has a thin layer of ice built back up, then some idiot court will blame me for "inadequate" care of the sidewalk even though I shoveled as best I could. But if it's obviously not been shoveled in the first place, then it's your own damn fault for thinking it was safe and walking on it.


Now see....I was too lazy to even come up with a good excuse...and then ...this pops up on the net....damn if I am not stealin' it!

Snow will melt itself come summer.........I ain't gonna shovel it!!!
 
2012-12-29 06:29:35 AM  
I've got jury duty coming up in a Michigan county next month. I'm glad we won't have to waste our time on some oaf who fell down.
 
2012-12-29 06:35:16 AM  
Garces, who fell in an icy lot at La Providencia market in Holland, lost, too. So did Leetta Ottman, who slipped on ice outside a casino near New Buffalo.

There's a NEW Buffalo?
 
2012-12-29 06:53:46 AM  
Farkin ambulance chasing lawyers caused this mess in the first place, now if you legitimately slip and fall, (rare I admit), yer screwed.
 
2012-12-29 07:09:00 AM  

Day_Old_Dutchie: Garces, who fell in an icy lot at La Providencia market in Holland, lost, too. So did Leetta Ottman, who slipped on ice outside a casino near New Buffalo.

There's a NEW Buffalo?


With an Indian Casino. Imagine that!
/and Redamak's
 
2012-12-29 07:22:58 AM  

gadian: Worst slip-n-fall I ever did happened as I was leaving a Dr's appointment. Slipped like I was a cartoon character or something, legs completely over head, fell and cracked my head on a corner edge of the sidewalk leaving the entry area. Good thing it was just a short trip back up some stairs, I had no idea even really shallow head wounds bled that much.


Oh, so you gonna switch it on 'em?
 
2012-12-29 07:25:41 AM  
Maybe this has something to do with many or even the majority of slip-and-fall cases being outright fraudulent because fraud was so easy to perpetrate due to the unrestricted nature of the old determinants of liability? Or, to use shorter words, maybe the state wasn't cool with it being possible to rape a company's wallet on the strength of bare assertion?
 
2012-12-29 07:27:44 AM  

Jim_Callahan: Or, to use shorter words, maybe the state wasn't cool with it being possible to rape a company's wallet on the strength of bare assertion?


No kidding. That's a corporate racket, not for the individual little people.
 
2012-12-29 07:28:25 AM  

over_and_done: This is why I don't shovel the snow off the sidewalk in front of my house. If it looks clear but actually has a thin layer of ice built back up, then some idiot court will blame me for "inadequate" care of the sidewalk even though I shoveled as best I could. But if it's obviously not been shoveled in the first place, then it's your own damn fault for thinking it was safe and walking on it.


A town I used to live in actually encouraged people to complain if they slipped on a sidewalk that had been shoveled. They would then come out & cite the owner for improper maintenance (one of the more scummy revenue generation schemes I've ever seen). It got so bad that the various 'consumer activist' types on the tube were encouraging people not to shovel their sidewalk. Eventually enough people complained that the citing was stopped (mailmen were having a biatch of a time wading through the snow between houses...) & everyone went back to being careful while out walking when it's cold out.

Also it lets me stay the hell inside on cold days.

There was that added benefit to letting someone who slips on your sidewalk crack his head because of an 'act of God' rather than 'you didn't get out the hair dryer & melt off every scrap of ice'.
 
2012-12-29 07:30:28 AM  
Please be a Bernstein, please be a Bernstein....YES!
 
2012-12-29 07:35:14 AM  

thorthor: Farkin ambulance chasing lawyers caused this mess in the first place, now if you legitimately slip and fall, (rare I admit), yer screwed.


So the judges weren't able to use reason and thought in the face of the voodoo onslaught of the magical amber-lamps chasing lawyers, so they had to water down the standard?

Is that what you're saying? Cuz if so, you're an idiot.

The standard should be fair and reasonable. Judges should use their tiny little noggins to determine if each individual case lives up to that standard. The fact that some people will try to make a living bringing suits that are short of the standard should mean nothing but a waste of time.

Saying that a property owner has zero responsibility ("you can shop somewhere else") is not fair standard in my opinion.
 
2012-12-29 07:35:58 AM  

Ordinary Genius: Please be a Bernstein, please be a Bernstein....YES!


The Bernstein law firm is a bottom feeder of bottom feeders. And in the state that is home to Geoffrey Fieger that's saying something.
 
2012-12-29 07:40:19 AM  

Mr. Right: Ordinary Genius: Please be a Bernstein, please be a Bernstein....YES!

The Bernstein law firm is a bottom feeder of bottom feeders. And in the state that is home to Geoffrey Fieger that's saying something.


Couldn't agree more. When Bernstein had those billboards all over when he was running for U-M regent, I groaned. They also have their attorneys coming into my builiding for depositions all the time (there is a depo service in my building) and every time they come in, I treat them like shiat.
 
2012-12-29 07:57:18 AM  
I'm in Montreal with my gf and we have been marveling at how poorly the sidewalks are cleared (meaning many of them aren't) after this recent snowfall, so I was musing that liability laws here must be different than in NYC, the last big city I called home.
I agree that we don't want to reward ambulance chasers or fraudulent claimants, but we need some system that encourages or requires property owners to create a safe passage along the sidewalks for pedestrians. I can't imagine how infirm people get around here--if you need a cane or a walker, you're screwed and I've seen healthy people, moving cautiously, who've fallen because the sidewalks aren't cleared.
So , my question is this: assuming we want clear sidewalks, what system would you suggest that encourages or requires adequate clearance in a reasonable amount of time? I assume we don't want the government responsible for it, since that would a) take longer than everyone cleaning up his/her own sidewalk and b) could potentially get really expensive. Thoughts?
 
2012-12-29 08:05:25 AM  
FTA: "We are skeptical as to whether an ordinary puddle in a parking lot constitutes a hazard of any kind," judges Mark Cavanagh and Joel Hoekstra

A puddle, is not a hazzard. A patch of ice is. Michigan judges are too stupid to understand the differences between water and ice.

FTA: Landowners are not charged with a duty of ensuring absolutely the safety of each person who comes onto their land,

No one argues for 'absolute safty'. US law is based on the concept of 'reasonableness'. Land owners are responsible to take reasonable measures to ensure safty. Doing something to address accumulating ice in parking lots and walk ways is "reasonable".
 
2012-12-29 08:05:46 AM  

Ordinary Genius: Mr. Right: Ordinary Genius: Please be a Bernstein, please be a Bernstein....YES!

The Bernstein law firm is a bottom feeder of bottom feeders. And in the state that is home to Geoffrey Fieger that's saying something.

Couldn't agree more. When Bernstein had those billboards all over when he was running for U-M regent, I groaned. They also have their attorneys coming into my builiding for depositions all the time (there is a depo service in my building) and every time they come in, I treat them like shiat.


I've dealt with several law firms and more than a few lawyers and most of them are great people. Bernsteins are not included in that group.

One of my friends is poor as a churchmouse and struggles to get by. She drives old clunkers that she gets dirt cheap from folks like me who like her and give her a very good deal. She is a better than average mechanic so she nurses these things along as best she can. But when you're driving on ice and can't stop. bad things will happen. She was in a bit of a fender bender - both parties drove away - with another vehicle that (in her words) was packed like a clown car with snot-nosed brats and a mother who was generously built and smoking like a chimney. The other driver insisted that the police be called and this terrible accident be reported. While waiting for the cops to get there, she was yelling at her kids to STFU or she was going to kill the bunch of them. My friend felt sorry for the kids because they didn't appear too well clothed for the weather and the Mom had turned off the engine so there wasn't any heat in the vehicle.

Cop arrived, assessed the situation, gave neither party a ticket because of conditions, allowed as how there probably wasn't enough damage done to either vehicle to warrant a police report, ascertained that there were no injuries to anyone, wrote up an incident report and went on his merry way.

Two years later, my friend received notice that she was being sued for $5,000 for damages and pain and suffering resulting from this crash. Plaintiff's attorney? Bernstein. Her insurance company was going to pay until she told them the details and why there had been no accident report filed. They sent Bernstein a note that they should make like a foundry worker and pound sand. Nothing more was ever heard.
 
2012-12-29 08:51:45 AM  

SweetDickens: This is why I don't shovel the snow off the sidewalk in front of my house. If it looks clear but actually has a thin layer of ice built back up, then some idiot court will blame me for "inadequate" care of the sidewalk even though I shoveled as best I could. But if it's obviously not been shoveled in the first place, then it's your own damn fault for thinking it was safe and walking on it.
Now see....I was too lazy to even come up with a good excuse...and then ...this pops up on the net....damn if I am not stealin' it!
Snow will melt itself come summer.........I ain't gonna shovel it!!!


Nope, this is true. If you try keeping pavement clean, it becomes slippery and then you have to use salt. If you don't shovel, it won't be as slippery, but can still develop icy patches as people walk on it.

Winter can be dangerous. Watch your damn feet.

/I am a professional snow shoveler.
//Someone please give me a job.
 
2012-12-29 10:12:12 AM  

ryarger: thorthor: Farkin ambulance chasing lawyers caused this mess in the first place, now if you legitimately slip and fall, (rare I admit), yer screwed.

So the judges weren't able to use reason and thought in the face of the voodoo onslaught of the magical amber-lamps chasing lawyers, so they had to water down the standard?

Is that what you're saying? Cuz if so, you're an idiot.

The standard should be fair and reasonable. Judges should use their tiny little noggins to determine if each individual case lives up to that standard. The fact that some people will try to make a living bringing suits that are short of the standard should mean nothing but a waste of time.

Saying that a property owner has zero responsibility ("you can shop somewhere else") is not fair standard in my opinion.


Don't confuse the line from the paper with an actual statement from the judicial. The standard is "reasonable care" with respect to snow and ice in MI. The real impact of this decision has been that if you are wearing 4" heels while it is snowing and you fall, you have little chance of suing the property owner and winning anything.

As a property owner, if you have a solid snow vendor and clear specifications for removal you will avoid the frivolous suits. If you go out and through a handful of salt down in a 3" snowfall then claim it is "open and obvious" you will have problems.

Should also note the original case was from Ironwood in the U.P. where you should expect snow and ice in June. (ok, slight exaggeration there)
 
2012-12-29 10:16:04 AM  

Im_Gumby: Day_Old_Dutchie: Garces, who fell in an icy lot at La Providencia market in Holland, lost, too. So did Leetta Ottman, who slipped on ice outside a casino near New Buffalo.

There's a NEW Buffalo?

With an Indian Casino. Imagine that!
/and Redamak's


I'm not surprised the Pokegons won that lawsuit.
 
2012-12-29 10:19:28 AM  
In Michigan the only things certain in life are death, taxes and falling on your ass in winter.
 
2012-12-29 10:24:14 AM  
Salt is bad for the environment. Meaning my car. In my state, they coat the roads three inches deep in salt as soon as a snowflake appears in the sky.

Every fall, I bag up about 150lbs of dark black dirt, mix it with sand (the kind you put into kids' sand boxes) from Home Depot and use that instead of salt. The dark retains the heat from the Sun better than salt. The sand provides friction. And as a bonus the whole mess turns into a nasty muddy mixture that is an excellent deterrent for keeping people from walking on my sidewalks.
 
2012-12-29 10:35:46 AM  
Those damn Republican Supreme Court justices with their common sense verdicts.
 
2012-12-29 10:54:19 AM  

Mr. Right: Cop arrived, assessed the situation, gave neither party a ticket because of conditions, allowed as how there probably wasn't enough damage done to either vehicle to warrant a police report, ascertained that there were no injuries to anyone, wrote up an incident report and went on his merry way.


Huh.

Pennsylvania, me with a Learners Permit. Driving for the first time in snow. My mother had just driven the road on one direction to pick me up from work, saw no signs of ice. I was driving slowly- 25 in a 40, and had no problems for 90% of the trip. About 2 miles from home, going around a curve, hit a patch of ice, slid across the road, slowly spinning, hit the shoulder backwards. There was a 6' embankment, car rolled over (rather gently, actually), landed on its roof.

Between the crushed roof, racked frame and the engine which was upside down for hours before the tow truck arrived, the car was totaled. Losing the car set of a series of events that... well, I won't bore you, but it really farked up my plans for the future. I had to deal with the fact that I almost killed myself and my mother. And then the cops charged my with going too fast on top of it!! Their argument was that since I got into an accident, I was obviously going too fast for conditions. You can be going 1mph, and get cited for "too fast"- after all you could have been going 1/2mph!
 
2012-12-29 11:15:31 AM  
Long been pretty difficult to win a Slip-and-Fall lawsuit in Minnesota.

It's Winter. We have snow and ice. It's farking everywhere. Learn how to deal with it or GTFO.
 
2012-12-29 11:16:43 AM  
Well that's one good thing about Michigan.
 
2012-12-29 11:17:51 AM  
this:

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=5vm18VvLYG0&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3 D 5vm18VvLYG0
 
2012-12-29 11:29:57 AM  

Muta: US law is based on the concept of 'reasonableness'.


FISA and Senator Feinstein would like to have a word with you.
 
2012-12-29 11:33:01 AM  

tillerman35: Salt is bad for the environment. Meaning my car. In my state, they coat the roads three inches deep in salt as soon as a snowflake appears in the sky.
Every fall, I bag up about 150lbs of dark black dirt, mix it with sand (the kind you put into kids' sand boxes) from Home Depot and use that instead of salt. The dark retains the heat from the Sun better than salt. The sand provides friction. And as a bonus the whole mess turns into a nasty muddy mixture that is an excellent deterrent for keeping people from walking on my sidewalks.


I'm horrified every time I go to the U.P. and watch the trucks spewing salt. But the roads are completely clear of snow--it's running off the sides of the road in a salty mess. WTF is that, some sort of collusion with the auto makers? Around here, they use a lot more sand and gravel, and not so much salt, but then you end up with a broken windshield. It's a rare vehicle in Montana that doesn't have cracks in the windshield. I'd still rather have the dinged windshield.

In my town, where there are very steep hills, they use some kind of chemical on the roads that totally melts everything, including your car. I had to have my radiator replaced after it ate holes in it, and so do a lot of other people. FFS, can we just stop melting every snowflake that falls, so that some dumbass who's driving too fast won't go in the ditch?
 
2012-12-29 11:35:28 AM  

grchunt: I'm in Montreal with my gf and we have been marveling at how poorly the sidewalks are cleared (meaning many of them aren't) after this recent snowfall, so I was musing that liability laws here must be different than in NYC, the last big city I called home.
I agree that we don't want to reward ambulance chasers or fraudulent claimants, but we need some system that encourages or requires property owners to create a safe passage along the sidewalks for pedestrians. I can't imagine how infirm people get around here--if you need a cane or a walker, you're screwed and I've seen healthy people, moving cautiously, who've fallen because the sidewalks aren't cleared.
So , my question is this: assuming we want clear sidewalks, what system would you suggest that encourages or requires adequate clearance in a reasonable amount of time? I assume we don't want the government responsible for it, since that would a) take longer than everyone cleaning up his/her own sidewalk and b) could potentially get really expensive. Thoughts?


I live in Fredericton, New Brunswick. The city plows our city owned sidewalks, business and home owners are only responsible for their parking/driveway and walks leading up to the building.
 
2012-12-29 11:46:02 AM  

sloshed_again: When we walks on ice and snow, We don't know it's slippery?


Yeah. If a hazard is common, obvious and not created by the business I think it's pedestrian beware. Businesses will deal with it to attract patrons anyway, there shouldn't be legal liability for imperfect abatement.
 
2012-12-29 11:50:26 AM  

Oliver Twisted: Don't confuse the line from the paper with an actual statement from the judicial. The standard is "reasonable care" with respect to snow and ice in MI. The real impact of this decision has been that if you are wearing 4" heels while it is snowing and you fall, you have little chance of suing the property owner and winning anything.

As a property owner, if you have a solid snow vendor and clear specifications for removal you will avoid the frivolous suits. If you go out and through a handful of salt down in a 3" snowfall then claim it is "open and obvious" you will have problems.

Should also note the original case was from Ironwood in the U.P. where you should expect snow and ice in June. (ok, slight exaggeration there)


Essentially, the court held that the lady's relationship with the gym didn't excuse her from the duty of taking reasonable care for her own safety. She admitted that she saw the ice and decided to try her luck anyway, so.... I'm not from MI, but it seems to have been settled long before this case that property owners in Michigan are not insurers of their invitees' safety.

FTFA, according to the injured lady, "it should be the club's job to take care of a paying customer. Period." Yep, totally not the customer's job to take care of herself. Not at all.

For anyone bored enough to read it, here's a free source for the full opinion:
PDF, new window
 
2012-12-29 12:09:33 PM  
Prove neglect and win.
Your Honor, my client has witness's that state elklablamo liquor store has a history of not even attempting to maintain the grittiness of the entry portion into their establishment. Resulting in my client breaking 3 bottles of fine wine, along with creating a very large booboo on their noggin, while leaving the establishment.

/Edmonton Alberta put an old lady in jail for not cleaning the publics sidewalk down to concrete and tells drivers to eat shiat as they don't plow all the roads all winter long.
//Road maintenance has killed many people in the winter but a little deal is worked out with insurance and government that prevents the next of kin from getting true justice against allowing dangerous conditions to happen(road extremely icy 2-5 hours before the crash and warnings to plow/ice/sand were ignored).
 
2012-12-29 12:48:50 PM  
Great, now all the taxpaying, job-creating ambulance chasers will vote with their feet and move to a state that doesn't interfere with their entrepreneurial activities.

Why does pro-union, pro-Obama Michigan hate small business?
 
Displayed 50 of 62 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | » | Last | Show all

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report