ZAZ: Slip-and-fall lawsuits, once a staple for injury attorneys, have become extremely difficult in Michigan courts, especially after another strict standard was set last summer by the state Supreme Court. Feet flying in the air because of water, ice or snow? Case dismissed - unless someone absolutely can't avoid the hazard.Michigan must be trying to offset Massachusetts, which changed its standard in 2010 from "did the defendant put the ice there?" to "does the defendant have deep pockets?"
jeffrey626: Just remember... CALL SAM!!!
illannoyin: Ladies and gentlemen take my advice.Pull down your pants and slide on the ice my face!
gadian: Worst slip-n-fall I ever did happened as I was leaving a Dr's appointment. Slipped like I was a cartoon character or something, legs completely over head, fell and cracked my head on a corner edge of the sidewalk leaving the entry area. Good thing it was just a short trip back up some stairs, I had no idea even really shallow head wounds bled that much.
SpaceyCat: Ice is a danger and care should be taken. Retailers do have to maintain their property adequately, however, that doesn't mean that everyone who slipped and fell aren't at fault. While I was out shopping one day when there was some ice on the sidewalks I saw one bright kid decide that hey, I want to slide on that ice! So he took a running start, slide across the ice on his feet and then promptly faceplanted on concrete when he hit the end of the ice. Looked like he broke his nose. Of course, the kids mom was wailing about her hurt kid. My response was: why did you encourage your kid to slide across the ice in an area that isn't designed for it? She got very flustered about it.
HotWingAgenda: illannoyin: Ladies and gentlemen take my advice.Pull down your pants and slide on the ice my face!/easily amused
Day_Old_Dutchie: Garces, who fell in an icy lot at La Providencia market in Holland, lost, too. So did Leetta Ottman, who slipped on ice outside a casino near New Buffalo.There's a NEW Buffalo?
Jim_Callahan: Or, to use shorter words, maybe the state wasn't cool with it being possible to rape a company's wallet on the strength of bare assertion?
over_and_done: This is why I don't shovel the snow off the sidewalk in front of my house. If it looks clear but actually has a thin layer of ice built back up, then some idiot court will blame me for "inadequate" care of the sidewalk even though I shoveled as best I could. But if it's obviously not been shoveled in the first place, then it's your own damn fault for thinking it was safe and walking on it.
thorthor: Farkin ambulance chasing lawyers caused this mess in the first place, now if you legitimately slip and fall, (rare I admit), yer screwed.
Ordinary Genius: Please be a Bernstein, please be a Bernstein....YES!
Mr. Right: Ordinary Genius: Please be a Bernstein, please be a Bernstein....YES!The Bernstein law firm is a bottom feeder of bottom feeders. And in the state that is home to Geoffrey Fieger that's saying something.
Ordinary Genius: Mr. Right: Ordinary Genius: Please be a Bernstein, please be a Bernstein....YES!The Bernstein law firm is a bottom feeder of bottom feeders. And in the state that is home to Geoffrey Fieger that's saying something.Couldn't agree more. When Bernstein had those billboards all over when he was running for U-M regent, I groaned. They also have their attorneys coming into my builiding for depositions all the time (there is a depo service in my building) and every time they come in, I treat them like shiat.
SweetDickens: This is why I don't shovel the snow off the sidewalk in front of my house. If it looks clear but actually has a thin layer of ice built back up, then some idiot court will blame me for "inadequate" care of the sidewalk even though I shoveled as best I could. But if it's obviously not been shoveled in the first place, then it's your own damn fault for thinking it was safe and walking on it.Now see....I was too lazy to even come up with a good excuse...and then ...this pops up on the net....damn if I am not stealin' it!Snow will melt itself come summer.........I ain't gonna shovel it!!!
ryarger: thorthor: Farkin ambulance chasing lawyers caused this mess in the first place, now if you legitimately slip and fall, (rare I admit), yer screwed.So the judges weren't able to use reason and thought in the face of the voodoo onslaught of the magical amber-lamps chasing lawyers, so they had to water down the standard?Is that what you're saying? Cuz if so, you're an idiot.The standard should be fair and reasonable. Judges should use their tiny little noggins to determine if each individual case lives up to that standard. The fact that some people will try to make a living bringing suits that are short of the standard should mean nothing but a waste of time.Saying that a property owner has zero responsibility ("you can shop somewhere else") is not fair standard in my opinion.
Im_Gumby: Day_Old_Dutchie: Garces, who fell in an icy lot at La Providencia market in Holland, lost, too. So did Leetta Ottman, who slipped on ice outside a casino near New Buffalo.There's a NEW Buffalo?With an Indian Casino. Imagine that!/and Redamak's
Mr. Right: Cop arrived, assessed the situation, gave neither party a ticket because of conditions, allowed as how there probably wasn't enough damage done to either vehicle to warrant a police report, ascertained that there were no injuries to anyone, wrote up an incident report and went on his merry way.
Muta: US law is based on the concept of 'reasonableness'.
tillerman35: Salt is bad for the environment. Meaning my car. In my state, they coat the roads three inches deep in salt as soon as a snowflake appears in the sky.Every fall, I bag up about 150lbs of dark black dirt, mix it with sand (the kind you put into kids' sand boxes) from Home Depot and use that instead of salt. The dark retains the heat from the Sun better than salt. The sand provides friction. And as a bonus the whole mess turns into a nasty muddy mixture that is an excellent deterrent for keeping people from walking on my sidewalks.
grchunt: I'm in Montreal with my gf and we have been marveling at how poorly the sidewalks are cleared (meaning many of them aren't) after this recent snowfall, so I was musing that liability laws here must be different than in NYC, the last big city I called home.I agree that we don't want to reward ambulance chasers or fraudulent claimants, but we need some system that encourages or requires property owners to create a safe passage along the sidewalks for pedestrians. I can't imagine how infirm people get around here--if you need a cane or a walker, you're screwed and I've seen healthy people, moving cautiously, who've fallen because the sidewalks aren't cleared.So , my question is this: assuming we want clear sidewalks, what system would you suggest that encourages or requires adequate clearance in a reasonable amount of time? I assume we don't want the government responsible for it, since that would a) take longer than everyone cleaning up his/her own sidewalk and b) could potentially get really expensive. Thoughts?
sloshed_again: When we walks on ice and snow, We don't know it's slippery?
Oliver Twisted: Don't confuse the line from the paper with an actual statement from the judicial. The standard is "reasonable care" with respect to snow and ice in MI. The real impact of this decision has been that if you are wearing 4" heels while it is snowing and you fall, you have little chance of suing the property owner and winning anything.As a property owner, if you have a solid snow vendor and clear specifications for removal you will avoid the frivolous suits. If you go out and through a handful of salt down in a 3" snowfall then claim it is "open and obvious" you will have problems.Should also note the original case was from Ironwood in the U.P. where you should expect snow and ice in June. (ok, slight exaggeration there)
cryinoutloud: Around here, they use a lot more sand and gravel, and not so much salt, but then you end up with a broken windshield. It's a rare vehicle in Montana that doesn't have cracks in the windshield. I'd still rather have the dinged windshield.
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