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(NewsOK)   Hobby Lobby to continue hobby of lobbying Appeals Court to allow their other hobby of lobbing their beliefs on their employees private lobby hobbies   (newsok.com) divider line 190
    More: Followup, sidelines, appeals court  
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7710 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Dec 2012 at 4:02 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
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Archived thread
2012-12-28 03:55:51 PM  
14 votes:
If we had a single payer system were the federal or state governments offered the plans, this wouldn't be an issue.  Companies wouldn't have any direct part in healthcare compensation.  A lot of smaller companies would have preferred such a system so they don't have to be involved in the healthcare cluserfark.

Instead, we have our current mess.  Thanks Congress.
2012-12-28 01:48:06 PM  
13 votes:
Maybe they should become a church if they want to have church rules.
2012-12-28 04:17:43 PM  
8 votes:
encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com
Do you see that? Its a modern reflector on an Amish buggy. The Amish did not want to put modern reflectors on their buggies, but the law says they have to.
2012-12-28 04:29:57 PM  
7 votes:
Insurance is often a part of your remuneration. An employer should have as much choice over its content as they should over what you spend your wage on. Even the idea that they have any idea of its content is bizarre to me, as a non-American. If you have to have this weird system in the US where you healthcare is usually tied to your employment, at least have an iron curtain between them.
2012-12-28 04:12:57 PM  
7 votes:
What makes fundies such awful pieces of shiat?
2012-12-28 04:45:10 PM  
6 votes:

KidneyStone: I have a big problem with the government making it a law that health insurance must pay for contraceptives. Ya wanna fark and not make babies? Cool, but don't make my health insurance costs go up because of it.


Contraceptives are cheaper then babies
2012-12-28 04:44:27 PM  
6 votes:

cwolf20: On an unrelated note.

Owner with 6 employees figured up the math on providing insurance for the first time to his employees.

It'll be cheaper for him to take a 350 dollar hit per employee including himself and wife. Which wouldn't be an issue except she's never worked there. But the state government told him she always has. Meanwhile the employees will go forth and get Obama care.


I believe the only part of this story that isn't completely made up is the word "with".
2012-12-28 04:18:48 PM  
6 votes:
Your beliefs are not necessarily those of your employees. You don't get to claim religious prerogative when what you're being required to do has no effect on you personally and does not infringe upon your beliefs as they pertain to you. STFU and choke it down.

/Farking fundies.
2012-12-28 05:55:53 PM  
5 votes:

giftedmadness: Um...#1 violates the employers right to practice their religion....


Learn the difference between "practicing your religion" and "imposing your religion on other people".

Your right to practice YOUR religion ENDS where my right to practice MY religion BEGINS. That's the distinction you teabagging fundie assholes never seem to understand. Practicing your religion means "I must wear magic underwear". That's fine. What we have a problem with is when you say "My employees must wear magic underwear".

Practice your own farking religion to your heart's content. Wear funny hats and magic underwear, eat special food, abstain from sex and dancing, whatever you think makes your invisible sky wizard happy -- all perfectly fine with us. Just leave the rest of us out of it.

If you're right, we're going to hell anyway. That's actually fine with us, as long as our afterlife doesn't mean spending an eternity surrounded by self-righteous douchebags like you.
2012-12-28 05:02:20 PM  
5 votes:

KidneyStone: I have a big problem with the government making it a law that health insurance must pay for contraceptives. Ya wanna fark and not make babies? Cool, but don't make my health insurance costs go up because of it.


Insurance that pays for contraception is cheaper than insurance that doesn't, and has to pay to deliver an unwanted baby, then maintain it's health for years, and years.  How do you not understand this.  A rubber costs a couple of bucks.  How much does it cost to bring a baby to term, you dolt?
2012-12-28 04:53:31 PM  
5 votes:

KidneyStone: the_end_is_rear: KidneyStone: I have a big problem with the government making it a law that health insurance must pay for contraceptives. Ya wanna fark and not make babies? Cool, but don't make my health insurance costs go up because of it.

Contraceptives are cheaper then babies

Personal responsibility is free

/and may as well be a unicorn these days


?? People want contraceptives to prevent unwanted pregnancies, they try to go to their doctor to get them (acting responsibly) but find their EMPLOYER has interfered with them trying to act responsibly, and you think this is good?

Ahh, the Modern Republican: willfully, insistently stupid, and proud of it.
2012-12-28 05:24:52 PM  
4 votes:

giftedmadness: ThrobblefootSpectre: Religious belief does not make you exempt from law that affects everyone.* You do not get to deny health benefits, hide your face for a driver's licence photo, beat your children for having a boyfriend, or smoke weed.


*(Unless your ancestors were here before the U.S. existed and peyote is a historically documented part of your religion.)

false equivalence.   Nobody is forcing people to work for Hobby Lobby.  If they don't like the health benefits offered by HL, they can apply for a job elsewhere.


Nobody is forcing Hobby Lobby to sell their shiat in the United States. If Hobby Lobby doesn't like the US, they can go run their business elsewhere.
2012-12-28 05:20:30 PM  
4 votes:

KidneyStone: I'm against my healthcare costs going up to pay for contraceptives. And that includes what I use.


You idiot.  Contraceptives cost LESS than a baby.  The BABY makes the cost go up.  Contraceptives prevent the expensive baby-making, thus costing LESS.  How do you not understand this?
2012-12-28 05:10:45 PM  
4 votes:

Bonzo_1116: If they want to operate as a business, then they need to follow the rules for businesses not a private membership church.

I don't think a company owned by Jehovah' s Witnesses can require that their employer sponsored insurance denies a patient a kidney transplant.

It's f*cked up that health insurance comes from your employer anyway. Aside from damage sustained on the job, it's none of your boss's business what you need from your doctor.


THIS.

Several good points here! The part about Jehovah's Witnesses is the only thing any judge should need to think about when they consider the Hobby Lobby stance. If a JW owns a business, they can't remove kidney transplants from an employee's coverage. If a hardcore pagan owns a business, they can't choose to only cover holistic treatments, and if a Christian owns a business, they can't choose to omit birth control from the insurance.

However, the final point is what rings true with me. It's STUPID that our country has employers providing health insurance. We should either have insurance/health care because we pay taxes (like every sane country in the world) or we should have a mandatory higher minimum wage and mandatory lower insurance premiums so that everyone can afford to buy decent insurance and still pay for rent, food, and utilities, among other things.

The insurance companies have this country by the balls, and they know it. That's why I don't really believe in the political process-- The corporations make the laws, not the people. If we had any major influence on our laws, then prohibition wouldn't have happened, marijuana would have been legalized ages ago, and laws would exist to make it impossible for pharmaceutical companies to patent medications that improve or preserve human life.

Medicine is not the secret formula to Kentucky Fried Chicken. It's for the benefit of humanity. We should not be making medicine to gain obscene profits from it. We should be making medicine to improve the human condition and make our workforce better, stronger and healthier. THAT'S where the money comes in.

The world is f♥cked up, anyway. The plutocrats are in charge. The corporations own your ass, and at least half of this country will defend them while they screw us. It makes me ill.
2012-12-28 04:49:21 PM  
4 votes:
What was the name of the religious leader who commanded his followers to cure the sick?

Oh right, is was Jesus.

But fundies only read the part of the bible that has smiting and abominations... they skip over the parts that say "feed and clothe the poor", "cure the sick", and "love one another". And especially the parts that say to give away your riches and pray in private. They NEVER read those parts.
2012-12-28 04:44:09 PM  
4 votes:

Nabb1: I'd think gays would be ambivalent about birth control since they really don't need it to prevent pregnancy.


Really?

As Sandra "Slut" Fluke testified, many women need birth control pills for medical reasons that have nothing to do with having sex or preventing pregnancy. There's also a big benefit to gay men and lesbians in using contraceptives such as condoms or dental dams. They prevent the spread of STDs and HIV, even among same-sex couples who aren't worried about pregnancy.
2012-12-28 04:32:37 PM  
4 votes:
My religion says hard hats and steel toed boots are the mark of Satan, therefore my employees are exempt from OSHA regulations.
2012-12-29 01:21:29 AM  
3 votes:

TanHamster: That's too bad, because this site was awesome.


Well, bye.
2012-12-28 07:44:30 PM  
3 votes:

PsychoTherapist: cwolf20: On an unrelated note.

Owner with 6 employees figured up the math on providing insurance for the first time to his employees.

It'll be cheaper for him to take a 350 dollar hit per employee including himself and wife. Which wouldn't be an issue except she's never worked there. But the state government told him she always has. Meanwhile the employees will go forth and get Obama care.

I'd welcome him paying down the deficit at $350 per, but it's a strange thing for him to do considering that businesses with less than 50 employees do not incur any penalty under PPACA for not offering health insurance.


Isn't it funny that the people who are most against Obamacare have no idea what it actually IS?
2012-12-28 06:21:09 PM  
3 votes:

KidneyStone: Look up personal responsibility


Sure thing! Let's see, P... Peanut... Ah, here we go.

Personal Responsiblity n.
1. What conservatives constantly preach but rarely, if ever, actually practice.

Hey, there's a picture of Craig T. Nelson next to the definition!

garron: If the owners of Hobby Lobby believe that abortion is murder, they have a moral responsibility to not pay for said murders.


So you're OK if Cindy Sheehan and death penalty opposers also sued the government because they too have a moral responsibility not to pay for murder?
2012-12-28 05:18:52 PM  
3 votes:

KidneyStone: I have a big problem with the government making it a law that health insurance must pay for contraceptives. Ya wanna fark and not make babies? Cool, but don't make my health insurance costs go up because of it.


It's comments like this that make me wish Fark had a moran button as well as a smart and funny button.
2012-12-28 05:12:21 PM  
3 votes:
Great Janitor: It shouldn't be the government's position to tell businesses exactly what benefits they have to offer, what kind of healthcare packages they have to provide.

Oh, but they can tell me who I can or cannot marry, and prevent me from adopting a child?

Conservatives. Bless their hearts. Please.
2012-12-28 05:07:33 PM  
3 votes:

Great Janitor: ghare: Great Janitor: Bontesla: Great Janitor: I really can't hate them for saying that they don't want to offer coverage that goes against their beliefs. They aren't saying that they don't want their female employees not to be on the pill or whatever, just that they don't want to offer those programs. If their employees don't like it, they can find work else where. It shouldn't be the government's position to tell businesses exactly what benefits they have to offer, what kind of healthcare packages they have to provide.

Why should your employer's religious preferences be imposed on the standard of insurance you can receive?

Other than offering insurance - the business has no business in my medical business.

Because they are paying for it.

Well, then, they obviously have the right to restrict what employees do with their paychecks too.

Wrong. Employers have no rights to tell employees what to do with the paychecks. Since that's payment for time spent making the company money. The part about health insurance is different because it's not payment for services.


Health care is part of your payment. Employers aren't bestowing you with good health care because of your killer dimples.
2012-12-28 05:02:48 PM  
3 votes:

Great Janitor: It shouldn't be the government's position to tell businesses exactly what benefits they have to offer, what kind of healthcare packages they have to provide.


You mean "benefits" like minimum wage, a healthy & safe workplace, overtime pay, child labor laws, etc? Yeah, who needs big bad gubmint telling employers what to do, right?
2012-12-28 05:01:25 PM  
3 votes:

Whole Wheat: ZeroCorpse: The Greens should shove some Chic-Fil-A up their asses and STFU.

Honestly, I'm sick of these fundies who own corporations thinking they can act like their business is a branch of their church. It's not, and your employees are not your congregation.

Honestly, screw these people.

It's their business, they should be allowed to run it how they want. It was formed from their own biblical beliefs. If they choose to pay the fines instead of complying with the law, good on them.


Lol Except there's a reason why women aren't allowed to be paid less than their male counterparts for the same job. Even if your religion thinks women are poo-poo heads.
2012-12-28 04:49:41 PM  
3 votes:

NewWorldDan: Eh, if the employees have a problem with this, they should quit. It's just that simple.


Eh, if the employer has a problem with following federal laws regarding businesses, they should just close up shop. It's that simple.
2012-12-28 04:47:29 PM  
3 votes:

Great Janitor: Bontesla: Great Janitor: I really can't hate them for saying that they don't want to offer coverage that goes against their beliefs. They aren't saying that they don't want their female employees not to be on the pill or whatever, just that they don't want to offer those programs. If their employees don't like it, they can find work else where. It shouldn't be the government's position to tell businesses exactly what benefits they have to offer, what kind of healthcare packages they have to provide.

Why should your employer's religious preferences be imposed on the standard of insurance you can receive?

Other than offering insurance - the business has no business in my medical business.

Because they are paying for it.


Well, then, they obviously have the right to restrict what employees do with their paychecks too.
2012-12-28 04:46:55 PM  
3 votes:
Thanks for letting us know where you stand on this, Hobby Lobby.

In the court of my opinion, you've been found guilty trying to force your religious beliefs on others and therefore are no longer a consideration when I need anything you sell. I will buy my supplies from someone else.
2012-12-28 04:34:31 PM  
3 votes:
The Greens should shove some Chic-Fil-A up their asses and STFU.

Honestly, I'm sick of these fundies who own corporations thinking they can act like their business is a branch of their church. It's not, and your employees are not your congregation.

Honestly, screw these people.
2012-12-28 04:28:39 PM  
3 votes:
FTA: "Our family is now being forced to choose between following the laws of the land that we love or maintaining the religious beliefs that have made our business successful and supported our family and thousands of our employees and their families," Green said in September. "We simply cannot abandon our religious beliefs to comply with this mandate."

$10 says that this exact argument, or words to that affect, were used against the idea of making slavery illegal.
2012-12-28 04:27:14 PM  
3 votes:

cmb53208: What makes fundies such awful pieces of shiat?


I think it goes the opposite direction... awful pieces of shiat are attracted to fundamentalism, which further encourages them to be complete and utter shaitheads.
2012-12-28 04:26:20 PM  
3 votes:

imtheonlylp: ok, here goes..

if you don't like it, then find another job...it's not mandatory that you believe what they do nor is it mandatory that you are employed there...


Your logic:
1). Law is created to protect employees.
2). Employer violates law.
3). Punish employee.
2012-12-28 04:23:52 PM  
3 votes:

Great Janitor: It shouldn't be the government's position to tell businesses exactly what benefits they have to offer, what kind of healthcare packages they have to provide.


You're right; the government should be doing that all themselves for everyone
2012-12-28 04:17:28 PM  
3 votes:

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: That 40 bucks is going to push them right over the edge.

Boycotting them is kind of counter productive. If enough people did that (they won't), it would have more of a negative impact on the employees, then it would the company. Sales are down, you lay off people.


You're absolutely right.  Continuing to shop there is the best possible way to send a message that their attempts to interfere with the private lives of their employees will not be tolerated.
2012-12-28 04:10:02 PM  
3 votes:
I can't respect a company that is based in the leisure industry, yet is closed on a day when most people have leisure.
2012-12-28 03:03:12 PM  
3 votes:
Hey, why not just follow your employees home to make sure they're not farking for fun?
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-12-28 02:25:50 PM  
3 votes:
It's kind of a silly argument. Health care is part of the compensation package. You might as well argue that you should be able to pay with scrip so you can make sure that employees don't buy rubbers with money the company pays them.
2012-12-28 09:27:13 PM  
2 votes:
Here's my thoughts on the Catholic Church and Contraception:

The man telling you that contraception is wrong and counter to God's Will is the same man that rides in an armored car so that he won't get shot.

I would think God would have a greater interest in the safety of his Legate on Earth (if he is what he claims to be) than whether or not any random woman has a baby when she has sex. If the Pope should be assassinated, it must be God's Will. Therefore his position on Contraception is HYPOCRICY, as he is actively using means to prevent God's Will, while denying such means to others.
2012-12-28 09:19:49 PM  
2 votes:

CreampuffCasperMilktoast: cameroncrazy1984: CreampuffCasperMilktoast: The Democrats take control of the House (and Senate) in 2007, and coincidentally in 2007 the USPS operated at a loss for the first time in over 5 years..... but this is somehow the Republicans fault?

Um, because the new regs were put in  prior to 2007? Oh gee, that was so hard to figure out.

....and those regs would be what exactly? The point is that Government, regardless of whether the "r's" or "d's" are running the show, is not conducive to a profitable environment.... not even a "break even" environment. With only a few exceptions (wars, moon landing), nothing they do is successful. Any successes they have had is at some colossal financial loss anyway.


He said, on the internet, without feeling even the slightest twinge of irony.
2012-12-28 08:54:43 PM  
2 votes:
I don't understand why you teabaggers have a problem with this.
The only people who will take advantage of birth control and abortion are liberals and brown people, right? You pay for enough of it and surely within a few generations this country will turn into a glorious white Jesusland.
Pay a little now, live in a glorious Fatherland later. It seems like a good investment. Call it a solution to your problems. Carry it out far enough and it might even turn into a, how to say it, final solution?
2012-12-28 07:56:54 PM  
2 votes:

CreampuffCasperMilktoast: The Democrats take control of the House (and Senate) in 2007, and coincidentally in 2007 the USPS operated at a loss for the first time in over 5 years..... but this is somehow the Republicans fault?


Um, because the new regs were put in  prior to 2007? Oh gee, that was so hard to figure out.
2012-12-28 07:43:42 PM  
2 votes:

CreampuffCasperMilktoast: pxlboy: CreampuffCasperMilktoast: pxlboy: pesky government interfering with their attempts at further exploitation of the worker. Free market! Galt! Socialism!

Because government knows what is best for business..... Postal Service Reports Loss of $15 Billion

Meanwhile ignoring the ponderous funding rules the USPS has to follow. Nice try.

You mean the ponderous funding rules put in place by...... government?


Yeah, the weird thing is they were put in place by Republicans. I thought they were supposed to be anti-regulation?
2012-12-28 07:41:05 PM  
2 votes:

Nonrepeating Rotating Binary: giftedmadness: So if an atheist organization was forced to give equal amounts of money to religious causes you'd be fine with that?

,
If an Atheist company was attempting to claim an exemption because some of the money paid out as claims under their insurance policy went to religious organizations that provided medical services, I would be equally fine with telling them to STFU and pay for the damned insurance.


You know, I'll agree with that one. If the owner of a company said, "you can't stay at a hospital with 'saint' in the name, because it goes against my atheism," my reaction would be the same as it is to these Hobby Lobby folks.
2012-12-28 07:21:13 PM  
2 votes:

mwfark: The govt is forcing Hobby Lobby to act in a way that conflicts with their beliefs, so I'm proud of this private enterprise for standing its ground against an aggressively coercive government. I believe in freedom, and Hobby Lobby should be free to run it's business as the owners see fit, and the employees are free to seek work elsewhere if they don't like it.


They aren't paying for shiat directly. Their insurance company is. Their employees pay for that insurance. Your argument is insane.
2012-12-28 07:18:57 PM  
2 votes:

KidneyStone: mcmiller: KidneyStone: I'm against my healthcare costs going up to pay for contraceptives. And that includes what I use.

How do you feel about your health care costs going up due to unplanned or unwanted pregnancies?

Birth control costs much much less than prenatal care, delivery with potential complications, postpartum care of the mother and then years of pediatric care.

Point missed. Look up personal responsibility


Getting all morally outraged and self-righteous doesn't solve problems, but that's not really what you want, is it? You just do it to feel good about yourself, because you aren't getting pregnant like those people. Some people don't need that kind of validation, and prefer to use things like statistics to determine what course of action leads to the best outcome. Statistics. Look that up. It just so happens that offering birth control is less expensive than caring for all those extra unwanted pregnancies that would otherwise happen.

Go ahead and scream "sluts!" all you want, but leave the health care decisions to the doctors who... *gasp* ...actually know what they're doing. See if you can still get that addictive rush of extreme self-righteousness, without it actually ruining people's lives.
2012-12-28 06:52:10 PM  
2 votes:

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: PanicMan: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: So now the State invades religion, and forces some people to pay for abortions against their religious beliefs. Seriously, how is this really different from forcing people to worship a particular religion?

Care to quote the section of the bible that says you can't pay for someone else's abortion?

Care to quote the section of the bible that says that magic mushrooms and licked frog skins are sacred sacraments? It's religious belief, douchbag. Doesn't matter whose religion, or what support it has or doesn't have.

/Go ahead, make some more assumptions about me.


The state doesn't force anyone to pay for someone else's abortion. In fact, there's a law, called the Hyde Amendment, that says no federal tax dollars can go to abortion.

Care to be wrong about anything else?
2012-12-28 06:30:27 PM  
2 votes:

garron: pxlboy: garron: This is a simple concept people. If the owners of Hobby Lobby believe that abortion is murder, they have a moral responsibility to not pay for said murders.

But - I know there is no way but the liberal way and liberals have the right to dictate to people what they must believe and how they must spend their money. The Russians and Chinese communists use forced labor camps, jail and sometimes murder to enforce their ideologies on people. You liberals should look into it. I hear its very effective.

They also believe that contraception (regardless of its use) is abortion. They also believe all sorts of other crazy sh*t.

So what. One of the great parts of our formerly "free" country was that an employee could choose where they work. If you don't like a company's policies - don't work there, don't shop there and talk bad about them all you want - but don't force them to believe your "crazy sh*t".


I'm not sure if you're being disingenuous or if you're really that dense.

When companies can just arbitrarily follow labor and insurance laws, the employees suffer. I know this goes against your Randroid programming, but such arbitrary legal adherence can put someone else's health at risk.

Take the HPV vaccine, for instance; the fundies were screaming as though there were dildos being handed out at a primary school. Their myopic view only saw it as tacit permission for girls to slut around, not that their future partners could be carriers and could give them cancer.

This is just one example. So yeah, keep your religion out of your employees' healthcare.
2012-12-28 06:22:23 PM  
2 votes:

KidneyStone: lennavan: Sin_City_Superhero: KidneyStone: I have a big problem with the government making it a law that health insurance must pay for contraceptives. Ya wanna fark and not make babies? Cool, but don't make my health insurance costs go up because of it.

Insurance that pays for contraception is cheaper than insurance that doesn't, and has to pay to deliver an unwanted baby, then maintain it's health for years, and years. How do you not understand this. A rubber costs a couple of bucks. How much does it cost to bring a baby to term, you dolt?

Well when you pop the kid out, $3-5000 will cover the room depending on if you're there two or three nights. As for the doctors/nurses, procedures/meds, etc well those are gonna be extra. And don't get me started on the pregnant lady checkups.

So instead of paying $3,000 for the room for two nights, you could just pay for 60 months of birth control if you have no insurance.

/One of these days I'm gonna do all of the math out to see how many months of non insured BC you can get for a single kid, starting from maternal care to popping it out.

Another genius missing my point.

Imma try again a different way:
Where does the law say that if health insurance doesn't cover contraceptives then people are not allowed to buy their own?

The arguments here are all "if the health insurance doesn't cover birth control then a babby will be formed"


Nobody is missing your point, your point is just stupid. We don't get to pick and choose pet causes to kick out of health care plans. Family planning and reproductive health are covered. End of story. This thread is only playing out from their because the rest of us are fascinated with your fixation on punishing people who want sex and not children. People who don't use contraception (have kids), people with poor diets who don't exercise, and smokers will cost you more in the long run. Where is the outrage for that? Why this fixation on people who are getting laid and don't want kids or more kids?
2012-12-28 05:40:45 PM  
2 votes:

giftedmadness: let alone something that goes against my religion.


It's funny (both funny "ha ha" and funny "strange") to see the Conservatives who cheered our invasion of Iraq clutching their pearls over things that go against their religion.

War? Tens of thousands dead or injured? USA! USA! USA!
Birth control pills? Gasp!
2012-12-28 05:39:30 PM  
2 votes:

giftedmadness: Bontesla: KidneyStone: I have a big problem with the government making it a law that health insurance must pay for contraceptives. Ya wanna fark and not make babies? Cool, but don't make my health insurance costs go up because of it.

Uhm your health insurance costs Do go up because employers weren't forced to cover things like contraception. Who do you think eats those costs when an uninsured mother gives birth?

You're assuming that the only way people can access contraceptives is if their health insurance pays for it.....that's a stupid assumption.


You're assuming that someone making minimum wage can afford to pay for a visit to the OBGYN to get a prescription for contraceptives out-of pocket as well as pay for the actual drugs.... that> is the stupid assumption. Why should a minimum wage employee take on such a huge health related cost out-of-pocket when they supposedly have health insurance? Family planning is a requirement for adults by because of natural processes. Type 2 diabetes is not, yet we are not debating covering the costs of that entirely avoidable condition. So really, WTF is your problem anyway?
2012-12-28 05:34:20 PM  
2 votes:

Great Janitor: Interestingly enough, I don't think they should have the ability to tell you who to marry or if you can or can not adopt a child.


So what? If you vote Republican, you're helping elect people who do think they should have the ability to tell me just that.
2012-12-28 05:24:38 PM  
2 votes:

KidneyStone: I'm against my healthcare costs going up to pay for contraceptives. And that includes what I use.


So you're against paying for other peoples contraceptives. Fine.

Would you be alright if insurance provided those contraceptives for free at no additional cost to you or others?

What if insurance provided contraceptives to everyone for free and also sent you a check with some extra money every year?

This last one is closest reality. Providing contraceptives reduces insurance costs and insurance providers are required to send you a check every year of the money they did not use. You're the dickhead demanding I pay higher insurance premiums because you want to drive some moral narrative on women. Who the fark are you to drive my insurance costs up?
2012-12-28 05:23:54 PM  
2 votes:

Sin_City_Superhero: KidneyStone: I'm against my healthcare costs going up to pay for contraceptives. And that includes what I use.

You idiot.  Contraceptives cost LESS than a baby.  The BABY makes the cost go up.  Contraceptives prevent the expensive baby-making, thus costing LESS.  How do you not understand this?


Kidney stones, like babies, are entirely preventable. I resent paying for other peoples' failure to drink enough water.
2012-12-28 05:18:08 PM  
2 votes:

KidneyStone: I never said they're not allowed to have them. I never said anything about not paying for a doctor visit. I never said i was even AGAINST contraceptives.

I'm against my healthcare costs going up to pay for contraceptives. And that includes what I use.

Ahh, the Modern Presumptuous Douchebag: Clueless, insistently entitled, and proud of it.

/I'm a Libertarian. Some conservative views without all the bullshiat worrying about who sleeps with who or who prays to whatever they call


Healthcare costs go down with free contraceptives. Insurance agencies know this. The pill is cheaper than abortion or giving birth.

Even if that wasn't the case the pill and abortions have needs besides "birth control". For a employer to say they can't be part of their plan is no different than saying a type of heart surgery or cancer medication can't be allowed because it is against their beliefs.
2012-12-28 05:06:48 PM  
2 votes:
Oklahoma City-based Hobby Lobby to defy federal law requiring contraception coverage for employees, attorney says

/its bad enough that all your crap is made in china, and i have yet to find one, even ONE, item that is made in the USA on your shelves. And i know, my wife shops for things there for her crafts. I've looked. If that wasn't bad enough..now you're telling people how to live and control their sex lives.

/eat a bag of dicks you non USA supporting derp slinging assholes.
2012-12-28 05:03:10 PM  
2 votes:

KidneyStone: Bontesla: KidneyStone: I have a big problem with the government making it a law that health insurance must pay for contraceptives. Ya wanna fark and not make babies? Cool, but don't make my health insurance costs go up because of it.

Uhm your health insurance costs Do go up because employers weren't forced to cover things like contraception. Who do you think eats those costs when an uninsured mother gives birth?

Uhm, the doctor/hospital, not the insurance company.


Wait - you think doctors and hospitals are giving out free medical care? With no compensation? Just for free because... They're notoriously nice?
2012-12-28 04:58:30 PM  
2 votes:

NewWorldDan: Eh, if the employees have a problem with this, they should quit. It's just that simple.


If employers have a problem following constituonal law then they should be prevented from operating until they can operate their business in accordance with our laws.
It's just that simple.
2012-12-28 04:57:11 PM  
2 votes:

Great Janitor: The non-Obamacare package is half that. But you also have to pay the fine for not having it. If you rarely go to the doctor and are generally healthy, take the non-Obamacare package, it is the cheaper way to go."


The implication there seems to be that the non-Obamacare package doesn't do much.
2012-12-28 04:55:50 PM  
2 votes:

Great Janitor: Bontesla: Great Janitor: I really can't hate them for saying that they don't want to offer coverage that goes against their beliefs. They aren't saying that they don't want their female employees not to be on the pill or whatever, just that they don't want to offer those programs. If their employees don't like it, they can find work else where. It shouldn't be the government's position to tell businesses exactly what benefits they have to offer, what kind of healthcare packages they have to provide.

Why should your employer's religious preferences be imposed on the standard of insurance you can receive?

Other than offering insurance - the business has no business in my medical business.

Because they are paying for it.


As they're paying wages. It's part of your compensation. Your employer cannot tell you how to use your compensation.
2012-12-28 04:54:21 PM  
2 votes:

Great Janitor: cwolf20: On an unrelated note.

Owner with 6 employees figured up the math on providing insurance for the first time to his employees.

It'll be cheaper for him to take a 350 dollar hit per employee including himself and wife. Which wouldn't be an issue except she's never worked there. But the state government told him she always has. Meanwhile the employees will go forth and get Obama care.

I sell health insurance. Took a few classes on Obamacare. The company I work for works with five different health insurance companies. Some are well known, others aren't. When it comes to health insurance, they pretty much all cost about the same. I offer my clients two health insurance packages. The Obamacare package and the non-Obamacare package. I also explain "For a married couple, the Obamacare package is going to run you about $8,000/year. The non-Obamacare package is half that. But you also have to pay the fine for not having it. If you rarely go to the doctor and are generally healthy, take the non-Obamacare package, it is the cheaper way to go."

Of course, I we've already been told that we're going to take a cut in commissions due Health Care reform and that we'd be better off focusing more on the Life Insurance for 2013.


You sell insurance and yet have no idea what Obamacare is, or how underwriting works. You're a hoot.
2012-12-28 04:54:13 PM  
2 votes:

NewWorldDan: Eh, if the employees have a problem with this, they should quit. It's just that simple.


It's law, though. Not opinion.

They can voice their opinion against the law. They can lobby against the law. They can vote for representatives who promise to get rid of the law. But they can't unilaterally consider themselves exempt from the law , without serious consequences.
2012-12-28 04:51:46 PM  
2 votes:

imtheonlylp: Bontesla: imtheonlylp: ok, here goes..

if you don't like it, then find another job...it's not mandatory that you believe what they do nor is it mandatory that you are employed there...

Your logic:
1). Law is created to protect employees.
2). Employer violates law.
3). Punish employee.

don't really think they're "punishing" anyone...employees are welcome to get their own insurance wherever they please...

My logic:
1) You don't agree with a business or their ethics or even their stance on any issue.
2) Don't work there and don't shop there.
3) Problem solved.


That's not actual logic. Your conclusion isn't a deduction made from your premises. It's not even inductive logic.

And if you don't think that the loss of work isn't a punishment for employees at the Hobby Lobby then you might just pass as a Romney son.
2012-12-28 04:47:55 PM  
2 votes:
As usual, fundies get to pick and choose which parts of the Bible are the literal words of God which may not ever be disobeyed and which are just filler between all the begatting and stoning of adulterous whores.

Romans 13:1-14 (New International Version)

13 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God's servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
Seems pretty clear to me. But then, I tend to take these sorts of things literally.
2012-12-28 04:47:28 PM  
2 votes:

KidneyStone: I have a big problem with the government making it a law that health insurance must pay for contraceptives. Ya wanna fark and not make babies? Cool, but don't make my health insurance costs go up because of it.


Uhm your health insurance costs Do go up because employers weren't forced to cover things like contraception. Who do you think eats those costs when an uninsured mother gives birth?
2012-12-28 04:46:44 PM  
2 votes:

ProfessorOhki: ghare: ProfessorOhki: Bontesla: Abe Vigoda's Ghost: ghare: I just spent $40 at Sam Flax instead of Hobby Lobby because of this. Tried to email them a pic of my receipt, but for some reason there doesn't appear o be a link to email them with comments on their website.

That 40 bucks is going to push them right over the edge.

Boycotting them is kind of counter productive. If enough people did that (they won't), it would have more of a negative impact on the employees, then it would the company. Sales are down, you lay off people.

That's assuming you've quit your hobby instead of taking your business elsewhere. Why would you quit your hobby?

Wal*Martization. I don't know exactly how big these guys are as a chain, but I could imagine a scenario where the big guy rolls into town, puts the small hobby shop(s) out of business and becomes the only game within 50 mi.

There's this thing called "the intarwebs." You can order stuff from it. I rarely have an emergency need to have art supplies RIGHT NOW.

Look at what I was replying to; I was referring to the [regional] loss of jobs and sales, not some unavailability of hobby supplies.


Hobby Lobby doesn't make a hobby of opening stores in towns of 2000. In regions where Hobby Lobby operates, big box stores do not create jobs. Rather, they cannibalize existing jobs from existing businesses. Boycotting Hobby Lobby will not affect net employment in a region, at all.
2012-12-28 04:45:32 PM  
2 votes:

Bonzo_1116: If they want to operate as a business, then they need to follow the rules for businesses not a private membership church.


This is the root of the problem right here. The first amendment protects a religion's right to practice religion. Things get stickier when religion attempts to do more than just practice religion. Who owns it and who runs it should be irrelevant. All businesses should be run the same and should follow the same rules.
2012-12-28 04:45:03 PM  
2 votes:

vpb: It's kind of a silly argument. Health care is part of the compensation package. You might as well argue that you should be able to pay with scrip so you can make sure that employees don't buy rubbers with money the company pays them.


Even sillier -- prescription birth control tends to cost less than most people's prescription drug copay.
2012-12-28 04:44:22 PM  
2 votes:

KidneyStone: I have a big problem with the government making it a law that health insurance must pay for contraceptives. Ya wanna fark and not make babies? Cool, but don't make my health insurance costs go up because of it.


Oh GREAT Idea! No one should have to pay any tax to support anything they don't agree with! Man, I am going to save a TON this year!
2012-12-28 04:41:51 PM  
2 votes:
If they want to operate as a business, then they need to follow the rules for businesses not a private membership church.

I don't think a company owned by Jehovah' s Witnesses can require that their employer sponsored insurance denies a patient a kidney transplant.

It's f*cked up that health insurance comes from your employer anyway. Aside from damage sustained on the job, it's none of your boss's business what you need from your doctor.
2012-12-28 04:38:59 PM  
2 votes:

Romeo_Santana: What's funny is how the more liberal among us think this doesn't affect them. cmb53208: What makes fundies such awful pieces of shiat?

Is that what CNN and John Stewart told you to think?


Exactly what point is it you're trying to make? I mean, I know your point is "HURR DURRR LIBS SO STUPID!" but what logical statement are you trying to make? That libs aren't going to like a law that they like once they find out it does things they like?
2012-12-28 04:36:34 PM  
2 votes:

ThrobblefootSpectre: ElwoodCuse: Actually, you do if you're a church.

If you are referring to taxes, that exemption is based on being a non-profit organization. it applies to secular organizations also. So it isn't an exemption based on religious belief.

Other than that, I'm not sure what you might be referring to.


The law Hobby Lobby is biatching about has an exemption for religious organizations. Religious organizations gets similar exemptions from discrimination laws (like when a Catholic school is allowed to fire a teacher because she got pregnant but is unmarried). Hobby Lobby sued because they claimed they should get an exemption because of their religious beliefs. However, the exemption isn't for businesses, and they are a business.
2012-12-28 04:36:33 PM  
2 votes:
When I was a kid and saw a store with the name "Hobby" in it I knew that it sold, model planes, trains, Estes rockets etc. You know...fun stuff.
That meaning of that word has been faded by Hobby Lobby. Scrap booking? A hobby?

I much more enjoyed the "Hobbiest" term used in the Suzy Favor Hamilton story.
2012-12-28 04:33:16 PM  
2 votes:

Great Janitor: I really can't hate them for saying that they don't want to offer coverage that goes against their beliefs. They aren't saying that they don't want their female employees not to be on the pill or whatever, just that they don't want to offer those programs. If their employees don't like it, they can find work else where. It shouldn't be the government's position to tell businesses exactly what benefits they have to offer, what kind of healthcare packages they have to provide.


Why should your employer's religious preferences be imposed on the standard of insurance you can receive?

Other than offering insurance - the business has no business in my medical business.
2012-12-28 04:29:47 PM  
2 votes:

Bontesla: o5iiawah: The My Little Pony Killer: Maybe they should become a church if they want to have church rules.

Or maybe they should be a private company, one of those places where you can choose on your own whether or not to shop there or work there.

dafuq did I just read?


You read a smattering of the idiotic theory of "free market" logic as told by a slave.
2012-12-28 04:29:17 PM  
2 votes:

Great Janitor: It shouldn't be the government's position to tell businesses exactly what benefits they have to offer, what kind of healthcare packages they have to provide.


So, by that logic, a company owned by Christian Scientists should be allowed to deny coverage to their non-CS employees for blood transfusions. You're OK with that?
2012-12-28 04:22:12 PM  
2 votes:
I really can't hate them for saying that they don't want to offer coverage that goes against their beliefs. They aren't saying that they don't want their female employees not to be on the pill or whatever, just that they don't want to offer those programs. If their employees don't like it, they can find work else where. It shouldn't be the government's position to tell businesses exactly what benefits they have to offer, what kind of healthcare packages they have to provide.
2012-12-28 04:17:21 PM  
2 votes:

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: ghare: I just spent $40 at Sam Flax instead of Hobby Lobby because of this. Tried to email them a pic of my receipt, but for some reason there doesn't appear o be a link to email them with comments on their website.

That 40 bucks is going to push them right over the edge.

Boycotting them is kind of counter productive. If enough people did that (they won't), it would have more of a negative impact on the employees, then it would the company. Sales are down, you lay off people.


That's assuming you've quit your hobby instead of taking your business elsewhere. Why would you quit your hobby?
2012-12-28 04:15:50 PM  
2 votes:

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: Boycotting them is kind of counter productive.


So if you disagree with their policy, you should shop there even more? Well, that's a tacit that I had not thought of. "Hey, Green Family, I don't agree with your policies, here's more money for you."
2012-12-28 04:05:28 PM  
2 votes:
I just spent $40 at Sam Flax instead of Hobby Lobby because of this. Tried to email them a pic of my receipt, but for some reason there doesn't appear o be a link to email them with comments on their website.
2012-12-28 02:01:10 PM  
2 votes:
The headline was basically doing alright until that apostrophe.
2012-12-28 01:47:23 PM  
2 votes:
I really can't support a company with such a dishonest name. Who calls themselves Hobby Lobby but doesn't support the hobby of sex?
2012-12-29 11:11:48 AM  
1 votes:

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: LOL! The history of godwining is interesting. Yes, it's been used (correctly) when someone, for example, has gone full retard with "But Nazis" when having an argument over a chess game. But it's also often used incorrectly, as a rhetorical (i.e.: cowardly) deflection from having to respond to someone who has made a valid point (as in: "Ha ha! You mentioned Nazi's so you lose!".

This present case is of the 2nd sort.

>>>>Lol, what are you on? Fascism? Nazi scientists?

So... what exactly is your point? Do you disagree that the United States exhibits some characteristics of Fascism? Do you disagree that the Nazi's had scientists? What? Please be specific. Try not to commit an ad hominem.


Your hyperbole is overboard. If you think this is remotely close to Nazi-ism or Fascism, there's no point in discussing anything further. I don't think you really believe that, I've seen you write non-insane comments before.

Now, to the godwinning bit, you've resorted to comparing the actions to Nazis without providing any remotely plausible link. It is a specious argument on your part, similar to the crazy here:
i233.photobucket.com
It isn't an argument. You want to discuss this? Make an argument. Wanna scream at clouds? Carry on with the same tack you've been following so far.
2012-12-29 11:01:07 AM  
1 votes:

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: cameroncrazy1984: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: When the Nazis (National Socialists) took control in Germany they nationalized some industries,

Okay you have a valid comparison. What industries has Obama nationalized, again?

Sigh.

>>>>What industries has Obama nationalized, again?

Mention of nationalization was a context/history lesson, dumbass, as you (hopefully) well know (re-read my post). If you really don't, then rational discussion with you is hopeless.


Well then how can you compare us to the Nazis if you can't actually compare us to anything the Nazis have done? You could just as easily compare us to the UK, Germany or France. But then that wouldn't have gotten you as much attention, and anyway those countries do just fine (or better) with more industrial regulation than we have.
2012-12-29 10:53:34 AM  
1 votes:

WhoopAssWayne: Convenience abortions should be prosecuted as first degree murder.

Go ahead idiot liberals - open up this can of worms of pushing your beliefs on others through Obamacare and see what kind of a country we end up with. Because it won't take long for the ball to be in the other court, and I have a feeling the next republican president will make G W Bush look like Mahatma Gandhi, and then you dumbasses will really have something to cry about.


Just a troll, nothing to see here.
2012-12-29 09:31:07 AM  
1 votes:

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: ghare: I just spent $40 at Sam Flax instead of Hobby Lobby because of this. Tried to email them a pic of my receipt, but for some reason there doesn't appear o be a link to email them with comments on their website.

That 40 bucks is going to push them right over the edge.

Boycotting them is kind of counter productive. If enough people did that (they won't), it would have more of a negative impact on the employees, then it would the company. Sales are down, you lay off people.


Boycott them, shop at other hobby stores. HL sees decrease in business and lays people off. Other hobby stores see increase and hire more people. I'm really tired of this "think of the minimum-wage slaves" argument when it comes to boycotting. Sure, as a minimum-wage slave myself, I empathize. But just how else is society supposed to show displeasure toward a company behaving badly? Send strongly-worded letters?
2012-12-29 02:24:16 AM  
1 votes:

TanHamster: . Pretty sure Fark has now become a wing of the Obama administration. That's too bad, because this site was awesome.


this site is STILL awesome.  look, I know you have to actually confront libruls here on fark and sometimes they'll actually be smarter than you, or more articulate.  hey, it happens.  no matter HOW good you are, someone is always better than you.  Try not to think of fark as being overrun with 'libruls'. instead, try to think of fark as a collection of random ideas.  some good, some bad, and most of 'em batshiat insane.

Just a thought.
2012-12-29 02:22:16 AM  
1 votes:
wait, what's wrong with being in your 30s and still enjoying video games? :-(
2012-12-29 01:45:56 AM  
1 votes:

TanHamster: cameroncrazy1984: TanHamster: That's too bad, because this site was awesome.

Well, bye.

hey, douchebag, by any chance do you play a lot of video games? not married? no kids? still live in an apartment? in your 30s?

i'm all for ad hominem attacks, because it greatly simplifies the process of arguing with some 35 yr old who plays call of duty, and still thinks he knows jack shiat about being an adult


I'm still in my twenties, and by the time I get to be whatever age you are, I hope I'm not nearly as irrationally angry about my life as you appear to be about yours. Because wow do you fly off the handle way too easily. Calm down. It's the Internet, gramps.
2012-12-29 01:26:53 AM  
1 votes:

CreampuffCasperMilktoast: Well, I didn't come on here to defend Republicans, but let's see if I have your logic correct.... The Democrats take control of the House (and Senate) in 2007, and coincidentally in 2007 the USPS operated at a loss for the first time in over 5 years..... but this is somehow the Republicans fault?


The Postal Accountability and Enhancement Act of 2006 was passed by the Republican Congress.  It mandated $5.5 billion per year to be paid into an account to pre-fund retiree health-care, 75 years into the future, a requirement unique to the USPS.  The purpose of this bill was to force the USPS into a budgetary crisis which Darrel Issa then used to try and pass a union busting bill to remedy the crisis they created.  Without the PAEA, the USPS would have a $1.5 billion surplus.  This was nothing more than another GOP attempt to intentionally break a government agency in order to prove that government doesn't work.
2012-12-29 01:17:53 AM  
1 votes:

Just Another OC Homeless Guy:
No, but that corporation is closely held, maybe even by one person, and that group or individual is religious, it is a violation of their/his religious freedom to dictate (Seig Heil) that they must violate their religious principles in order to remain in business.

Fascism is alive and well in America. USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! ......


But on the flip-side, it's apparently perfectly acceptable for a business owner to be the one dictating.
2012-12-29 01:13:48 AM  
1 votes:

mwfark: The govt is forcing Hobby Lobby to act in a way that conflicts with their beliefs, so I'm proud of this private enterprise for standing its ground against an aggressively coercive government. I believe in freedom, and Hobby Lobby should be free to run it's business as the owners see fit, and the employees are free to seek work elsewhere if they don't like it.


ct.fra.bz
2012-12-28 11:48:47 PM  
1 votes:
Fun fact: there's no space on the business registration form for "Religion of Business/Owner"

I wonder why that would be.
2012-12-28 11:26:10 PM  
1 votes:

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Fascism is alive and well in America.


i80.photobucket.com

Nice that the wingnuts are finally noticing.
2012-12-28 10:09:10 PM  
1 votes:

TanHamster: I could understand all of the butthutt, if Hobby Lobby were a publically-traded company. But it's privately held, so fark off


So? A private company isn't a religious entity either.
2012-12-28 10:02:13 PM  
1 votes:

o5iiawah: As a healthy 28 year old who doesn't smoke and runs and needs a plan with a high deductible that covers catastrophic illnesses


Yeah, because you'll ALWAYS be healthy.
2012-12-28 09:39:47 PM  
1 votes:

gaspode: cwolf20: On an unrelated note.

Owner with 6 employees figured up the math on providing insurance for the first time to his employees.

It'll be cheaper for him to take a 350 dollar hit per employee including himself and wife. Which wouldn't be an issue except she's never worked there. But the state government told him she always has. Meanwhile the employees will go forth and get Obama care.
False economy... it might be a tiny bit cheaper in the short term, but in terms of running a good long term business paying a few bucks a month per employee will pay back in spades. If he only had the sense.


You've been trolled.  Firms with fewer than 50 employees are not subject to the employer mandate.
2012-12-28 09:31:17 PM  
1 votes:

pxlboy: dr_blasto: cameroncrazy1984: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Mmmm... first, by "State" I refer to the technical term of government (in this case the feds), just in case you thought I meant the STATE government. Second, if the feds tell the company that, yes, they have to pay for employee purchases of contraceptives and other things that the employer's religion defines as abortifacients then yes, indeed, they are forcing them to pay for someone else's abortion

No you're not, because it doesn't matter what your religion is, it matters what science says. And science says you're still wrong.

Additionally, a corporation is not a religious entity so you're STILL wrong!

He's already godwinned his arguments.

Pretty much a dead giveaway that he's a moron or a troll.


Like Issa, he's probably both.
2012-12-28 09:18:20 PM  
1 votes:

cameroncrazy1984: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Mmmm... first, by "State" I refer to the technical term of government (in this case the feds), just in case you thought I meant the STATE government. Second, if the feds tell the company that, yes, they have to pay for employee purchases of contraceptives and other things that the employer's religion defines as abortifacients then yes, indeed, they are forcing them to pay for someone else's abortion

No you're not, because it doesn't matter what your religion is, it matters what science says. And science says you're still wrong.

Additionally, a corporation is not a religious entity so you're STILL wrong!


He's already godwinned his arguments.
2012-12-28 09:12:19 PM  
1 votes:

CreampuffCasperMilktoast: cameroncrazy1984: CreampuffCasperMilktoast: The Democrats take control of the House (and Senate) in 2007, and coincidentally in 2007 the USPS operated at a loss for the first time in over 5 years..... but this is somehow the Republicans fault?

Um, because the new regs were put in  prior to 2007? Oh gee, that was so hard to figure out.

....and those regs would be what exactly? The point is that Government, regardless of whether the "r's" or "d's" are running the show, is not conducive to a profitable environment.... not even a "break even" environment. With only a few exceptions (wars, moon landing), nothing they do is successful. Any successes they have had is at some colossal financial loss anyway.


Do you listen only to Rush Limbaugh, a man with the IQ of a fencepost, to get all your information on success and failure rates of government programs?
2012-12-28 09:04:37 PM  
1 votes:

dr_blasto: o5iiawah: dr_blasto: Maybe they should go be a company in some other country that doesn't have any farking standards. If they can't deal with making money in a first-world nation, maybe the Central African Republic would suit them better. Or maybe Iran.

Ooh, there's probably a lot of unused land they could set up shop in Afghanistan. That seems like its right up their alley.

We were a civil and stable country long before the days of employers providing health insurance so your whole tired argument is crap. The whole reason why we look to our employers for health insurance is because it is (so far) and untaxed benefit which companies use to attract talent. Like every other tax, the income tax affects the behavior of individuals and employers. Why we dont have insurance companies competing for business, lowering prices and offering attractive services like wellness and fitness to keep their costs low, giving consumers the ability to shop for a plan that fits their health needs with the freedom to take the plan across jobs and state lines is beyond me.

You mean, why didn't we implement Obamacare sooner? Because that's exactly what you post is implying. Those things you long for? In there. Cross-state markets, echanges, allow for competitive services. Wellness and preventative medicine? Now required.


Preventative medicine can go a long way towards reducing healthcare costs. People shouldn't have to wait until they're having a stroke or the cancer becomes so painful they go to the ER. At that point, whatever is necessary is going to have to be done immediately and at great expense.
2012-12-28 08:58:44 PM  
1 votes:
Cool HL story time: Few years back I was in my local Hobby Lobby in Cowtown and was doing some shopping but also considering applying there since they offered a decent starting wage. What stopped me from applying was a young lady in one of the home decor aisles speaking to a customer about how she was a member of a Bible study group and that they met on Wednesdays and how delighted she and her brethren/sisteren would be if said customer would but consent to join them. Sorry, Hobby Lobby, you're a business. Either run it as such or STFU and if you don't hush it, hope you get sued to kingdom come and may your sanctimonious asses be handed to you as was the head of John the Baptist delivered to Salome on a silver platter. Sadly, HL does have the best selection of dollhouse kits I've found in a brick and mortar store and have put it off, as one of my reasons is shipping of delicate parts and returning items from an online retailer. They have received no further business from me except for the one time I took an out of town houseguest at her request there and chose not to delve into why I boycotted the company. Amazon, who has a better return policy than I would've imagined, should have the same dollhouse kits for cheaper, so HL and all of their nonsense may go fly a kite and hopefully go down in flames for their neglect of the health and consideration of their employees and their families. I will not shed a tear to see them all close shop permanently and GTFU of my state.  I pray it is soon.
2012-12-28 08:34:48 PM  
1 votes:

letrole: As usual, the smarmy, conceited, and belligerent schoolboy-atheist types are descending into circle-jerkery.

The interesting thing is that these fellows are generally still dependant upon mummy and daddy. There's nothing quite like the sense of entitlement that comes from extended adolescence.

You do not have a right to medical care. It's a privilege.


Balls. Tell me where on Mazlo's hierarchy guns are.
2012-12-28 08:23:28 PM  
1 votes:

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Wally007: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: KiTTeNs_on_AciD: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: So now the State invades religion, and forces some people to pay for abortions against their religious beliefs. Seriously, how is this really different from forcing people to worship a particular religion?

Because telling someone the health care they provide to employees must cover standard medications is not the same as forcing them to cease or begin any kind of worship to anyone. If you had to seriously ask that you should immediately stop sharing your opinions on anything.

Ah ah ahhh! No changing context, please. The issue is whether the State has the right to force someone who has a set of religious beliefs to act contrary to those beliefs.

Questions:

If I am a devout Black Muslim, who does charity work for destitute Blacks, does the State have the right to force me to also do charity work for destitute whites?

If I am a principled Atheist who makes charitable contributions to causes that promote Atheism, does the State have the right to force me to also make contributions to devout Catholic or Muslim causes?

Be honest now....

If you own and run a business in this country, the State absolutely has the right to tell you how you may do that, yes,

So, in theory, there is no difference (except in degree) between the United States and Nazi Germany?


It took this many comments for someone to Godwin the conversation?
2012-12-28 08:20:05 PM  
1 votes:

Great Janitor: The Why Not Guy: Great Janitor: It shouldn't be the government's position to tell businesses exactly what benefits they have to offer, what kind of healthcare packages they have to provide.

Oh, but they can tell me who I can or cannot marry, and prevent me from adopting a child?

Conservatives. Bless their hearts. Please.

Interestingly enough, I don't think they should have the ability to tell you who to marry or if you can or can not adopt a child.

The role of the government should be small. Making sure we have infrastructure, clean water, a military and police and fire. That's about where it should end. Telling your employer how much you should be paid and what benefits you should or should not get shouldn't be the government's concern. If you work for Company ABC and you think you should make more money and get certain benefits, it shouldn't be the government who forces Company ABC to make those changes. It should be up to you to make the change to get the benefits and pay that you believe that you deserve. If that means changing jobs or acquiring a new job skills set, then make those changes.


Is it the lack of history that makes you so naive?

Http://lmgtfy.com/?q=working+conditions+industrial+revolution
2012-12-28 08:18:36 PM  
1 votes:
This thread is further proof that calling oneself a Libertarian is the simplest, most elegant IQ test ever devised--along with support for Ron Paul or the gold standard. Might as well just wear a helmet at all times, because you lack the sense that the FSM gave dirt.
2012-12-28 08:11:02 PM  
1 votes:

KidneyStone: Bontesla: KidneyStone: I have a big problem with the government making it a law that health insurance must pay for contraceptives. Ya wanna fark and not make babies? Cool, but don't make my health insurance costs go up because of it.

Uhm your health insurance costs Do go up because employers weren't forced to cover things like contraception. Who do you think eats those costs when an uninsured mother gives birth?

Uhm, the doctor/hospital, not the insurance company.


And who pays the hospital?

/ we know logic and reasoning is hard for you lot
2012-12-28 08:08:58 PM  
1 votes:

Whole Wheat: ZeroCorpse: The Greens should shove some Chic-Fil-A up their asses and STFU.

Honestly, I'm sick of these fundies who own corporations thinking they can act like their business is a branch of their church. It's not, and your employees are not your congregation.

Honestly, screw these people.

It's their business, they should be allowed to run it how they want. It was formed from their own biblical beliefs. If they choose to pay the fines instead of complying with the law, good on them.


I'm starting a new company soon. I just thought of an awesome rule ... employees are not allowed to donate any of their salaries to churches or other right wing causes, nor to buy guns. My company, my rules.
2012-12-28 08:07:11 PM  
1 votes:

CreampuffCasperMilktoast: cameroncrazy1984: CreampuffCasperMilktoast: The Democrats take control of the House (and Senate) in 2007, and coincidentally in 2007 the USPS operated at a loss for the first time in over 5 years..... but this is somehow the Republicans fault?

Um, because the new regs were put in  prior to 2007? Oh gee, that was so hard to figure out.

....and those regs would be what exactly? The point is that Government, regardless of whether the "r's" or "d's" are running the show, is not conducive to a profitable environment.... not even a "break even" environment. With only a few exceptions (wars, moon landing), nothing they do is successful. Any successes they have had is at some colossal financial loss anyway.


And assholes in office sabotaging the government so they can point an accusing finger to say, "See!? It *doesn't* work!"

Trying to play the "both sides" card when it was clearly a Republican Congress in at the end of the 2006 session that put in place requirements for 75 years of pensions. No other company or government service is run that way.

It is patently obvious that the regulation was designed to make the Postal Service fail. Set it up for failure until it does so you can crow on about how government doesn't work.
2012-12-28 08:04:07 PM  
1 votes:
Some interesting reading on Hobby Lobby's employment practices and financial expression of the CEO's Dominion Theology. As an example, CEO David Green's son Mart (what is he - a Palin?) is CEO of EthnoGraphic Media (formerly Bearing Fruit Communications) which appears to operate as a 501(c)(3) corporation, despite the fact that its sole purpose is to generate Dominionist propaganda films such as The End of the Spear.

Mart Green bailed out Oral Roberts University with a $70 million donation in 2007 after its former president (Oral's son) was embroiled in a criminal investigation regarding misappropriation of funds which left it deeply in debt. Mart then became Chairman of the Board of Trustees of the university.

In short, the entire family lives the so-called prosperity gospel, along with the likes of Benny Hinn, Creflo Dollar, Joyce Meyer, and Pat Robertson.They have accumulated enormous wealth by shuffling money among various "charities" operated by family members and paying themselves salaries (and expensing their lifestyles) from each of these organizations. If I had to venture a guess, I'd call this move by Hobby Lobby a calculated attempt to energize a base of evangelical Christians, the ultimate goal being a Congressional )and perhaps one day a Presidential) bid by Mart Green.
2012-12-28 08:01:00 PM  
1 votes:

giftedmadness:

So if an atheist organization was forced to give equal amounts of money to religious causes you'd be fine with that?


ummm tell me again how a business is either religious or atheist?
2012-12-28 07:58:57 PM  
1 votes:

cameroncrazy1984: CreampuffCasperMilktoast: The Democrats take control of the House (and Senate) in 2007, and coincidentally in 2007 the USPS operated at a loss for the first time in over 5 years..... but this is somehow the Republicans fault?

Um, because the new regs were put in  prior to 2007? Oh gee, that was so hard to figure out.


Government bloat is ok as long as it's military spending or crapping on the poor. If it's doing anything to bridge the inequality gap, it's evil socialism..
2012-12-28 07:54:04 PM  
1 votes:

moothemagiccow: pxlboy: Exactly. But it's preposterous to suggest that an atheist would do that. Unlike the religious folks, most of us are content to live and let live.

Most of "the religious folks" probably feel the same. The religious nutjobs are the ones ruining it.


"...religious nutjobs..."

Let's unpack this flavored noun.

First, religious: seriously? Get over dogma, man.

Second, nutjobs: seriously? NSS, you have to be a nutjob to believe any religious text literally anymore. Have you seen science? It's fricking amazing, man, and I suspect that science can/could explode your understanding of your religious world, if you only had the resources to  look it up. Words and Peaces.
2012-12-28 07:54:01 PM  
1 votes:

cameroncrazy1984: PsychoTherapist: cwolf20: On an unrelated note.

Owner with 6 employees figured up the math on providing insurance for the first time to his employees.

It'll be cheaper for him to take a 350 dollar hit per employee including himself and wife. Which wouldn't be an issue except she's never worked there. But the state government told him she always has. Meanwhile the employees will go forth and get Obama care.

I'd welcome him paying down the deficit at $350 per, but it's a strange thing for him to do considering that businesses with less than 50 employees do not incur any penalty under PPACA for not offering health insurance.

Isn't it funny that the people who are most against Obamacare have no idea what it actually IS?


Well, even I didn't know, until I looked it up just now, that "very small" businesses can get subsidies for purchasing insurance through the Exchanges. Oh, and that the penalty is actually going to be $2000 per. So I kinda call bullshiat on that entire post ... and I'm not the first one to do that.
2012-12-28 07:53:32 PM  
1 votes:

moothemagiccow: pxlboy: Republicans, specifically. They have a hard-on for destroying the USPS and public schools. Not everything needs a profit motive.

It's not like the USPS serves any real purpose any more. Is there any reason to send a letter anymore other than nostalgia and unwanted advertising?


Because we are spread out all over the country here. Though most of us live in concentrations around the coasts and major cities, we still provide certain infrastructural services and benefits even to those living in near isolation.

So I guess we can tell all the folks in the rural areas to suck it up and cope with cost increases of receiving even basic postal services?

As much of a relic as you think the USPS is, it still serves a functional purpose to this country.
2012-12-28 07:47:06 PM  
1 votes:

pxlboy: Exactly. But it's preposterous to suggest that an atheist would do that. Unlike the religious folks, most of us are content to live and let live.


Most of "the religious folks" probably feel the same. The religious nutjobs are the ones ruining it.
2012-12-28 07:43:36 PM  
1 votes:

ProfessorOhki: Nonrepeating Rotating Binary: giftedmadness: So if an atheist organization was forced to give equal amounts of money to religious causes you'd be fine with that?

,
If an Atheist company was attempting to claim an exemption because some of the money paid out as claims under their insurance policy went to religious organizations that provided medical services, I would be equally fine with telling them to STFU and pay for the damned insurance.

You know, I'll agree with that one. If the owner of a company said, "you can't stay at a hospital with 'saint' in the name, because it goes against my atheism," my reaction would be the same as it is to these Hobby Lobby folks.


Exactly. But it's preposterous to suggest that an atheist would do that. Unlike the religious folks, most of us are content to live and let live.
2012-12-28 07:43:08 PM  
1 votes:

pxlboy: CreampuffCasperMilktoast: pxlboy: CreampuffCasperMilktoast: pxlboy: pesky government interfering with their attempts at further exploitation of the worker. Free market! Galt! Socialism!

Because government knows what is best for business..... Postal Service Reports Loss of $15 Billion

Meanwhile ignoring the ponderous funding rules the USPS has to follow. Nice try.

You mean the ponderous funding rules put in place by...... government?

Republicans, specifically. They have a hard-on for destroying the USPS and public schools. Not everything needs a profit motive.


More like stealing the USPS. Privatise to a frat bro is stealing!
And deliberately breaking it's financial back to make this happen is TREASON!
2012-12-28 07:40:55 PM  
1 votes:

cwolf20: On an unrelated note.

Owner with 6 employees figured up the math on providing insurance for the first time to his employees.

It'll be cheaper for him to take a 350 dollar hit per employee including himself and wife. Which wouldn't be an issue except she's never worked there. But the state government told him she always has. Meanwhile the employees will go forth and get Obama care.


I'd welcome him paying down the deficit at $350 per, but it's a strange thing for him to do considering that businesses with less than 50 employees do not incur any penalty under PPACA for not offering health insurance.
2012-12-28 07:33:06 PM  
1 votes:

Thunderpipes: Sorry, a screw up who works in retail should not be offered a golden health care plan for free, damaging the business


Good thing that businesses aren't required to offer heath insurance for free then, right?
2012-12-28 07:33:04 PM  
1 votes:

giftedmadness: clyph: giftedmadness: Um...#1 violates the employers right to practice their religion....

Learn the difference between "practicing your religion" and "imposing your religion on other people".

Your right to practice YOUR religion ENDS where my right to practice MY religion BEGINS. That's the distinction you teabagging fundie assholes never seem to understand. Practicing your religion means "I must wear magic underwear". That's fine. What we have a problem with is when you say "My employees must wear magic underwear".

Practice your own farking religion to your heart's content. Wear funny hats and magic underwear, eat special food, abstain from sex and dancing, whatever you think makes your invisible sky wizard happy -- all perfectly fine with us. Just leave the rest of us out of it.

If you're right, we're going to hell anyway. That's actually fine with us, as long as our afterlife doesn't mean spending an eternity surrounded by self-righteous douchebags like you.

Umm...you really fail to understand the debate.  Hobby Lobby owners are not preventing anyone from using contraceptives......are they?  No......  They just don't want to pay for it.  Pretty simple, not that hard to understand.


Except "they" are not paying for "it".
"They" are forcing "their" religeon on the employees.
While this is just fine with some few specific fundies, it is not fine with the general population, many of whom hold other religeous beliefs, OMG!
Pretty simple to understand that you have been hoodwinked, it is pretty easy to do to sycophants.
If you demand your religeous freedom, it ends right where it bumps it's nose against another's religeon.
2012-12-28 07:30:44 PM  
1 votes:

Day_Old_Dutchie: Just pandering to those narrow-minded imbeciles that want to score some brownie points for heaven for their imaginary but insecure sky-wizard.  OH MY, GAWD doesn't like ABORTION or BIRTH CONTROL!  It sez right there in the BAHBULL!!!  Praise the LAWD!!!

Oh, and they just feel the rush of POWER they get for doing this. Doesn't matter how many lives of women they ruin with their little 'hobby' here.

Selfish, goddamn assholes. With money. Lots of goddamn money. Money that goddamn politicians just farkin' LOVE.


Unless there's something in the new testament about it, I don't think the Bible says anything negative about abortion per se. In fact the official Jewish stance is that a baby isn't a baby until it's halfway out of its mommy and that the mother's life is more important 100% of the time before that--this can also extend to the mother's mental health (how much depends on the individual rabbi). The Talmud even says (hypothetically) that delivering the baby in pieces is preferable to losing the life of the mother. Just, you know, FYI since I see a lot of "Abrahamic religions" nonsense flying around, as if they're all the same.
2012-12-28 07:28:17 PM  
1 votes:

giftedmadness: So if an atheist organization was forced to give equal amounts of money to religious causes you'd be fine with that?


,
If an Atheist company was attempting to claim an exemption because some of the money paid out as claims under their insurance policy went to religious organizations that provided medical services, I would be equally fine with telling them to STFU and pay for the damned insurance.
2012-12-28 07:27:52 PM  
1 votes:
Not gonna happen Hobby Lobby.
Religious rights do not give carte-balance to discriminate.
There IS legal precedence.
2012-12-28 07:27:26 PM  
1 votes:

giftedmadness: dr_blasto: mwfark: The govt is forcing Hobby Lobby to act in a way that conflicts with their beliefs, so I'm proud of this private enterprise for standing its ground against an aggressively coercive government. I believe in freedom, and Hobby Lobby should be free to run it's business as the owners see fit, and the employees are free to seek work elsewhere if they don't like it.

They aren't paying for shiat directly. Their insurance company is. Their employees pay for that insurance. Your argument is insane.

um..no....the employer pays for the insurance.....


The insurance is part of the compensation to the worker. Since that money can go to non-employer sponsored health plans as well, the money's closer to being under the control of the employee. They then pay into an insurance pool that was organized by the employer. They're really just middlemen in the process.
2012-12-28 07:26:24 PM  
1 votes:
The default setting for government involvement in religion should be set to "secular". No playing favorites on any side allowed.

It seems to be the Abrahamic religions that take the most issue with this. They see anything less than total adoption of their beliefs and practices as persecution.
2012-12-28 07:22:55 PM  
1 votes:

dr_blasto: mwfark: The govt is forcing Hobby Lobby to act in a way that conflicts with their beliefs, so I'm proud of this private enterprise for standing its ground against an aggressively coercive government. I believe in freedom, and Hobby Lobby should be free to run it's business as the owners see fit, and the employees are free to seek work elsewhere if they don't like it.

They aren't paying for shiat directly. Their insurance company is. Their employees pay for that insurance. Your argument is insane.


They can't let pesky things logic interfere with their god-given right to sh*t on other people.
2012-12-28 07:19:53 PM  
1 votes:

giftedmadness: So if an atheist organization was forced to give equal amounts of money to religious causes you'd be fine with that?


This isn't a religious or atheist organization; it's a business. That argument doesn't fly. Nice try though.
2012-12-28 07:19:31 PM  
1 votes:

dr_blasto: garron: This is a simple concept people. If the owners of Hobby Lobby believe that abortion is murder, they have a moral responsibility to not pay for said murders.

But - I know there is no way but the liberal way and liberals have the right to dictate to people what they must believe and how they must spend their money. The Russians and Chinese communists use forced labor camps, jail and sometimes murder to enforce their ideologies on people. You liberals should look into it. I hear its very effective.

What on the holy fark does this have to do with abortion?

Do we have to accommodate every stupid and wrong thing people think because every viewpoint deserves the same consideration no matter how completely and demonstrably wrong it is?


This. It's almost as if the churches and their practitioners think they are special and should be exempted from the rules that keep them from pushing religion on others.

Shocking, I tell you.
2012-12-28 07:17:33 PM  
1 votes:

garron: This is a simple concept people. If the owners of Hobby Lobby believe that abortion is murder, they have a moral responsibility to not pay for said murders.

But - I know there is no way but the liberal way and liberals have the right to dictate to people what they must believe and how they must spend their money. The Russians and Chinese communists use forced labor camps, jail and sometimes murder to enforce their ideologies on people. You liberals should look into it. I hear its very effective.


What on the holy fark does this have to do with abortion?

Do we have to accommodate every stupid and wrong thing people think because every viewpoint deserves the same consideration no matter how completely and demonstrably wrong it is?
2012-12-28 07:12:55 PM  
1 votes:

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: KiTTeNs_on_AciD: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: So now the State invades religion, and forces some people to pay for abortions against their religious beliefs. Seriously, how is this really different from forcing people to worship a particular religion?

Because telling someone the health care they provide to employees must cover standard medications is not the same as forcing them to cease or begin any kind of worship to anyone. If you had to seriously ask that you should immediately stop sharing your opinions on anything.

Ah ah ahhh! No changing context, please. The issue is whether the State has the right to force someone who has a set of religious beliefs to act contrary to those beliefs.

Questions:

If I am a devout Black Muslim, who does charity work for destitute Blacks, does the State have the right to force me to also do charity work for destitute whites?

If I am a principled Atheist who makes charitable contributions to causes that promote Atheism, does the State have the right to force me to also make contributions to devout Catholic or Muslim causes?

Be honest now....


If you own and run a business in this country, the State absolutely has the right to tell you how you may do that, yes,
2012-12-28 07:08:57 PM  
1 votes:

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: The issue is whether the State has the right to force someone who has a set of religious beliefs to act contrary to those beliefs.


Your problem is that you are foolish enough to believe that this is the case.
2012-12-28 07:05:12 PM  
1 votes:

garron: pxlboy: garron: This is a simple concept people. If the owners of Hobby Lobby believe that abortion is murder, they have a moral responsibility to not pay for said murders.

But - I know there is no way but the liberal way and liberals have the right to dictate to people what they must believe and how they must spend their money. The Russians and Chinese communists use forced labor camps, jail and sometimes murder to enforce their ideologies on people. You liberals should look into it. I hear its very effective.

They also believe that contraception (regardless of its use) is abortion. They also believe all sorts of other crazy sh*t.

So what. One of the great parts of our formerly "free" country was that an employee could choose where they work. If you don't like a company's policies - don't work there, don't shop there and talk bad about them all you want - but don't force them to believe your "crazy sh*t".


You must define choice as being something only businesses have as Obamacare offers people choices they originally didn't have.
2012-12-28 07:02:56 PM  
1 votes:

giftedmadness: They aren't imposing any religion on their employees.


The exact opposite of truth.

giftedmadness: The employee is free to do what he chooses with his own money.  Before Obamacare, there wasn't a mandate to provide an employee with any health benefits.  The employer had the right to offer whatever plan they saw fit to the employee.


Health insurance, if offered, is part of the employee's earned compensation. Minimum coverages are mandated by law. An employer should have just as much say in which of mandated minimum covered services are used by employees as they have in which brand of toilet paper employees buy with their earned pay: None.
2012-12-28 06:58:16 PM  
1 votes:

KidneyStone: I have a big problem with the government making it a law that health insurance must pay for contraceptives. Ya wanna fark and not make babies? Cool, but don't make my health insurance costs go up because of it.


Why not? It already pays for the viagra for your e.d.
2012-12-28 06:49:19 PM  
1 votes:

giftedmadness: I am against the Iraq and Afghan war.


Yeah, now you are.
2012-12-28 06:41:01 PM  
1 votes:

giftedmadness: Bontesla: KidneyStone: I have a big problem with the government making it a law that health insurance must pay for contraceptives. Ya wanna fark and not make babies? Cool, but don't make my health insurance costs go up because of it.

Uhm your health insurance costs Do go up because employers weren't forced to cover things like contraception. Who do you think eats those costs when an uninsured mother gives birth?

You're assuming that the only way people can access contraceptives is if their health insurance pays for it.....that's a stupid assumption.


That wasn't part of my argument at all.

Stone said he didn't want his insurance to increase because he's suddenly covering contraceptive. I responded that he's already covering services rendered to uninsured mothers.
2012-12-28 06:36:43 PM  
1 votes:

giftedmadness: clyph: giftedmadness: Um...#1 violates the employers right to practice their religion....

Learn the difference between "practicing your religion" and "imposing your religion on other people".

Your right to practice YOUR religion ENDS where my right to practice MY religion BEGINS. That's the distinction you teabagging fundie assholes never seem to understand. Practicing your religion means "I must wear magic underwear". That's fine. What we have a problem with is when you say "My employees must wear magic underwear".

Practice your own farking religion to your heart's content. Wear funny hats and magic underwear, eat special food, abstain from sex and dancing, whatever you think makes your invisible sky wizard happy -- all perfectly fine with us. Just leave the rest of us out of it.

If you're right, we're going to hell anyway. That's actually fine with us, as long as our afterlife doesn't mean spending an eternity surrounded by self-righteous douchebags like you.

Umm...you really fail to understand the debate.  Hobby Lobby owners are not preventing anyone from using contraceptives......are they?  No......  They just don't want to pay for it.  Pretty simple, not that hard to understand.


But why stop there? Contraceptives are used for more than just birth control, smart guy.
2012-12-28 06:33:29 PM  
1 votes:

cig-mkr: Benefits, paid for by companies, were created back in the early days to entice you to work for them.
It is so ingrained now, we expect that every company provide the perks with little or no cost to the employee.
What would happen if the companies decided to drop all medical / dental / eye care / drug benefits and just paid the fine for Obamacare? We would all be in lines for state run clinics. Maybe if the company gave you an extra few bucks an hour, and it would be mandatory for you to purchase you own health insurance, the company could get out from under this.
I see nothing good for the future of healthcare in America


Having large organizations use their numbers as leverage to purchase bulk plans is much better for the overall health of the company when compared to individual (and more expensive) plans.
2012-12-28 06:32:14 PM  
1 votes:

giftedmadness: KiTTeNs_on_AciD: giftedmadness: Bontesla: KidneyStone: I have a big problem with the government making it a law that health insurance must pay for contraceptives. Ya wanna fark and not make babies? Cool, but don't make my health insurance costs go up because of it.

Uhm your health insurance costs Do go up because employers weren't forced to cover things like contraception. Who do you think eats those costs when an uninsured mother gives birth?

You're assuming that the only way people can access contraceptives is if their health insurance pays for it.....that's a stupid assumption.

You're assuming that someone making minimum wage can afford to pay for a visit to the OBGYN to get a prescription for contraceptives out-of pocket as well as pay for the actual drugs.... that> is the stupid assumption. Why should a minimum wage employee take on such a huge health related cost out-of-pocket when they supposedly have health insurance? Family planning is a requirement for adults by because of natural processes. Type 2 diabetes is not, yet we are not debating covering the costs of that entirely avoidable condition. So really, WTF is your problem anyway?

Hobby Lobby isn't against people visting the obgyn.....please cite me where they are against this.


OK, so it's a complete waste of time to attempt to communicate with you. Now I know better for next time.

Oral contraceptives require a prescription, and thus, doctor visits (typically the OBGYN). My point being that yes, there are cases in which an employee of hobby lobby would only be able to get access to contraceptives if their insurance covered it. So it was not a stupid assumption.

Why exactly would I provide a citation for a claim I never made?

>.
2012-12-28 06:25:00 PM  
1 votes:

KiTTeNs_on_AciD: Why this fixation on people who are getting laid and don't want kids or more kids?


Jealousy?
2012-12-28 06:17:16 PM  
1 votes:

garron: This is a simple concept people. If the owners of Hobby Lobby believe that abortion is murder, they have a moral responsibility to not pay for said murders.

But - I know there is no way but the liberal way and liberals have the right to dictate to people what they must believe and how they must spend their money. The Russians and Chinese communists use forced labor camps, jail and sometimes murder to enforce their ideologies on people. You liberals should look into it. I hear its very effective.


They also believe that contraception (regardless of its use) is abortion. They also believe all sorts of other crazy sh*t.
2012-12-28 06:16:18 PM  
1 votes:

giftedmadness: ProfessorOhki: giftedmadness: Bontesla: imtheonlylp: ok, here goes..

if you don't like it, then find another job...it's not mandatory that you believe what they do nor is it mandatory that you are employed there...

Your logic:
1). Law is created to protect employees.
2). Employer violates law.
3). Punish employee.

Um...#1 violates the employers right to practice their religion....

...and forcing the employee to adhere to their employer's religion doesn't interfere with their right to not be subject to their employer's religion? Hobby Lobby's owners are more than free to not use contraception - they don't get to make the choice for their employees. Well, I suppose unless sex and/or procreation are part of their duties as employees, but I'm thinking it isn't that sort of place.

They aren't PREVENTING them from using contraception.  If one of their employees uses a contraceptive that the employee pays for herself, she will not be fired.  No freedom is abridged.


You're not getting it. It has nothing to do with it being contraception or insurance. The employer should not be applying their religion to their employees in any way, shape, or form.
2012-12-28 06:13:00 PM  
1 votes:

CreampuffCasperMilktoast: ghare: If Hobby Lobby closes due to a drop in sales, due to them being perceived by the public left as douchebags, then another art store will move in to take their place, and they will hire basically the same number of employees as Hobby Lobby did.

FTFY.... Let's see how bad it was for business last time.....

[www.frugal-cafe.com image 709x413]


Yup. Boycotts and protests don't work.

i651.photobucket.com

i651.photobucket.com

i651.photobucket.com

Thank god our privately-owned lunch counters can decide who they want to serve based upon the color of their skin, without the Federal government coming in with their "laws" impinging on our frrrrrrdoooommssss!!1
2012-12-28 06:06:34 PM  
1 votes:
Cruisng the local Chick-a-Fillet for fresh, ready-to-emerge-from-the-closet poultry eaters.

www.frugal-cafe.com
2012-12-28 05:50:37 PM  
1 votes:

giftedmadness: .conservative Christians donate more to help the poor than anyone else


How much of that is non-required tithing?
2012-12-28 05:48:15 PM  
1 votes:

ProfessorOhki:

The hospital has several places where they can make up the shortfall: they can pay staff less, they can understaff, they jack up the insured patients' bills, they can put off building maintenance. You're both right, stupids.

/The only thing they can't do is cut admin salaries
//I mean, obviously


Hospitals do not have several places where they can make up the shortfall. They can increase revenue, or decrease expenses. The former is billing the paying patients more which I mentioned, the latter involves shorting the quality of care that is provided. No one in their right mind would argue that providing lower quality care to insured patients is a viable solution, not while malpractice liability exists.

You honestly believe skipping annual (monthly) HVAC maintenance or not replacing burned out florescent light bulbs right-away is how hospitals cover their losses from treating uninsured patients?
2012-12-28 05:45:34 PM  
1 votes:

giftedmadness: clyph: What was the name of the religious leader who commanded his followers to cure the sick?

Oh right, is was Jesus.

But fundies only read the part of the bible that has smiting and abominations... they skip over the parts that say "feed and clothe the poor", "cure the sick", and "love one another". And especially the parts that say to give away your riches and pray in private. They NEVER read those parts.

um....conservative Christians donate more to help the poor build megachurches than anyone else.  Also, how does providing a morning after pill "cure" someone?


FTFY
2012-12-28 05:42:35 PM  
1 votes:

giftedmadness: Before Obamacare, I wasn't required to give you any healthcare, let alone something that goes against my religion


You aren't required to now either.

You can choose not to and pay a fine.

I don't think it is an ideal solution, but aside from universal healthcare I don't see how else to get people covered. It is prohibitively expensive for an individual to get it on his own.
2012-12-28 05:37:30 PM  
1 votes:

CreampuffCasperMilktoast: ghare: If Hobby Lobby closes due to a drop in sales, due to them being perceived by the public left as douchebags, then another art store will move in to take their place, and they will hire basically the same number of employees as Hobby Lobby did.

FTFY.... Let's see how bad it was for business last time.....

[www.frugal-cafe.com image 709x413]


That was ONE day.  It's not like those lines were there the next day...
2012-12-28 05:35:20 PM  
1 votes:

gaspode: cwolf20: On an unrelated note.

Owner with 6 employees figured up the math on providing insurance for the first time to his employees.

It'll be cheaper for him to take a 350 dollar hit per employee including himself and wife. Which wouldn't be an issue except she's never worked there. But the state government told him she always has. Meanwhile the employees will go forth and get Obama care.
False economy... it might be a tiny bit cheaper in the short term, but in terms of running a good long term business paying a few bucks a month per employee will pay back in spades. If he only had the sense.


It has nothing to do with its long-term viability, but everything to do with sticking it to the left at the expense of his employees.
2012-12-28 05:34:03 PM  
1 votes:

randomjsa: Once again...

Government: You must do this! It's the law because we say so!

Private Company: We don't want to do that, it violates our personal religious beliefs.

Liberals: Private company! Stop "forcing" your beliefs on your employees!

The only group here using force is the government because its the only thing in this scenario that can even use force but in the twisted and deranged mind of a liberal, somehow it becomes the company forcing things on people that they don't want instead of the government.


The Establishment clause exists for a reason. I'm sorry this bothers you.

We now return you to your regularly-scheduled flamewar.
2012-12-28 05:30:43 PM  
1 votes:

mmagdalene: Sin_City_Superhero: KidneyStone: I'm against my healthcare costs going up to pay for contraceptives. And that includes what I use.

You idiot.  Contraceptives cost LESS than a baby.  The BABY makes the cost go up.  Contraceptives prevent the expensive baby-making, thus costing LESS.  How do you not understand this?

Kidney stones, like babies, are entirely preventable. I resent paying for other peoples' failure to drink enough water.


And if insurance covering bottled water was cheaper than the cost of all kidney stone treatments, that would be a good idea too...
2012-12-28 05:30:03 PM  
1 votes:

KidneyStone: Bontesla: KidneyStone: Bontesla: KidneyStone: I have a big problem with the government making it a law that health insurance must pay for contraceptives. Ya wanna fark and not make babies? Cool, but don't make my health insurance costs go up because of it.

Uhm your health insurance costs Do go up because employers weren't forced to cover things like contraception. Who do you think eats those costs when an uninsured mother gives birth?

Uhm, the doctor/hospital, not the insurance company.

Wait - you think doctors and hospitals are giving out free medical care? With no compensation? Just for free because... They're notoriously nice?

Are you that naive or are you that stupid? If an uninsured mother is giving birth then where does she go? Doctor? Hospital? You pick one of those and tell us which one will turn away a woman in labor. If she is uninsured then how do the insurance companies get stuck with the bill? Do you suppose there's some general "uninsured mothers fund" where they all chip in or is it more of a round-robin thing where State Farm pays one week and then it's up to UHC and the next week it's someone else?

And they call ME stupid here.


You ARE stupid.! All that money has to get made back by billing INSURED patients more to cover the loss. That is why there is a 500% markup on gauze and aspirin and other basics. That is how insurance companies and insured patients get stuck with the bill. How dense are you not to be able to follow this simple concept?
2012-12-28 05:28:31 PM  
1 votes:

giftedmadness: Bontesla: imtheonlylp: ok, here goes..

if you don't like it, then find another job...it's not mandatory that you believe what they do nor is it mandatory that you are employed there...

Your logic:
1). Law is created to protect employees.
2). Employer violates law.
3). Punish employee.

Um...#1 violates the employers right to practice their religion....


...and forcing the employee to adhere to their employer's religion doesn't interfere with their right to not be subject to their employer's religion? Hobby Lobby's owners are more than free to not use contraception - they don't get to make the choice for their employees. Well, I suppose unless sex and/or procreation are part of their duties as employees, but I'm thinking it isn't that sort of place.
2012-12-28 05:28:05 PM  
1 votes:

giftedmadness: Um...#1 violates the employers right to practice their religion.


BS.

No religion I have ever heard of says you can't partake in insurance.

If religions were to argue that any insurance they pay for has to follow their beliefs then what would stop people from claiming that they are christian scientists, and can pay for no procedures?

The fact is insurance, like OSHA standards are requirements if you want to employ people in the US. Saying they can't support insurance that allows BC is no different than saying they don't want their employees to wear respirators in a toxic environment.
2012-12-28 05:26:09 PM  
1 votes:

KidneyStone: I'm against my healthcare costs going up to pay for contraceptives. And that includes what I use.

How do you feel about your health care costs going up due to unplanned or unwanted pregnancies?

Birth control costs much much less than prenatal care, delivery with potential complications, postpartum care of the mother and then years of pediatric care.
2012-12-28 05:24:44 PM  
1 votes:

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: So now the State invades religion, and forces some people to pay for abortions against their religious beliefs. Seriously, how is this really different from forcing people to worship a particular religion?


Because telling someone the health care they provide to employees must cover standard medications is not the same as forcing them to cease or begin any kind of worship to anyone. If you had to seriously ask that you should immediately stop sharing your opinions on anything.
2012-12-28 05:18:10 PM  
1 votes:

KidneyStone: Thunderpipes: ghare: KidneyStone: the_end_is_rear: KidneyStone: I have a big problem with the government making it a law that health insurance must pay for contraceptives. Ya wanna fark and not make babies? Cool, but don't make my health insurance costs go up because of it.

Contraceptives are cheaper then babies

Personal responsibility is free

/and may as well be a unicorn these days

?? People want contraceptives to prevent unwanted pregnancies, they try to go to their doctor to get them (acting responsibly) but find their EMPLOYER has interfered with them trying to act responsibly, and you think this is good?

Ahh, the Modern Republican: willfully, insistently stupid, and proud of it.

Employer interfered?

What, they stopped Sally from going out and buying stuff?

Employers should not be obligated to provide any health care. What is next, employers have to provide housing?

This guy gets what I'm saying.


Is housing part of the employee's compensation package? Then the employer must provide housing that meets the safety standards.
2012-12-28 05:15:00 PM  
1 votes:

KidneyStone: ghare: KidneyStone: the_end_is_rear: KidneyStone: I have a big problem with the government making it a law that health insurance must pay for contraceptives. Ya wanna fark and not make babies? Cool, but don't make my health insurance costs go up because of it.

Contraceptives are cheaper then babies

Personal responsibility is free

/and may as well be a unicorn these days

?? People want contraceptives to prevent unwanted pregnancies, they try to go to their doctor to get them (acting responsibly) but find their EMPLOYER has interfered with them trying to act responsibly, and you think this is good?

Ahh, the Modern Republican: willfully, insistently stupid, and proud of it.

I never said they're not allowed to have them. I never said anything about not paying for a doctor visit. I never said i was even AGAINST contraceptives.

I'm against my healthcare costs going up to pay for contraceptives. And that includes what I use.

Ahh, the Modern Presumptuous Douchebag: Clueless, insistently entitled, and proud of it.

/I'm a Libertarian. Some conservative views without all the bullshiat worrying about who sleeps with who or who prays to whatever they call god


Your health care costs will go up regardless, kitten.

And they go up - often - because uninsured are seeking medical treatment.
2012-12-28 05:12:33 PM  
1 votes:

WhoopAssWayne: Go ahead idiot liberals - open up this can of worms of pushing your beliefs on others through Obamacare and see what kind of a country we end up with. Because it won't take long for the ball to be in the other court, and I have a feeling the next republican president will make G W Bush look like Mahatma Gandhi, and then you dumbasses will really have something to cry about.


You're certainly a typical Republican... salivating at prospect of screwing over your fellow Americans.
2012-12-28 05:09:27 PM  
1 votes:

Sin_City_Superhero: KidneyStone: I have a big problem with the government making it a law that health insurance must pay for contraceptives. Ya wanna fark and not make babies? Cool, but don't make my health insurance costs go up because of it.

Insurance that pays for contraception is cheaper than insurance that doesn't, and has to pay to deliver an unwanted baby, then maintain it's health for years, and years. How do you not understand this. A rubber costs a couple of bucks. How much does it cost to bring a baby to term, you dolt?


Well when you pop the kid out, $3-5000 will cover the room depending on if you're there two or three nights. As for the doctors/nurses, procedures/meds, etc well those are gonna be extra. And don't get me started on the pregnant lady checkups.

So instead of paying $3,000 for the room for two nights, you could just pay for 60 months of birth control if you have no insurance.

/One of these days I'm gonna do all of the math out to see how many months of non insured BC you can get for a single kid, starting from maternal care to popping it out.
2012-12-28 05:07:56 PM  
1 votes:

Great Janitor: I really can't hate them for saying that they don't want to offer coverage that goes against their beliefs. They aren't saying that they don't want their female employees not to be on the pill or whatever, just that they don't want to offer those programs. If their employees don't like it, they can find work else where. It shouldn't be the government's position to tell businesses exactly what benefits they have to offer, what kind of healthcare packages they have to provide.


Stick with custodial work, thinking isn't your strong suit.

Using your logic christian scientists could offer coverage that only consisted of prayer.
2012-12-28 05:07:06 PM  
1 votes:

o5iiawah: The My Little Pony Killer: Maybe they should become a church if they want to have church rules.

Or maybe they should be a private company, one of those places where you can choose on your own whether or not to shop there or work there.


Maybe they should go be a company in some other country that doesn't have any farking standards. If they can't deal with making money in a first-world nation, maybe the Central African Republic would suit them better. Or maybe Iran.

Ooh, there's probably a lot of unused land they could set up shop in Afghanistan. That seems like its right up their alley.
2012-12-28 05:02:33 PM  
1 votes:

WhoopAssWayne: Convenience abortions should be prosecuted as first degree murder.

Go ahead idiot liberals - open up this can of worms of pushing your beliefs on others through Obamacare and see what kind of a country we end up with. Because it won't take long for the ball to be in the other court, and I have a feeling the next republican president will make G W Bush look like Mahatma Gandhi, and then you dumbasses will really have something to cry about.


I don't think the United States is the right country for you. Look into Nicaragua or El Salvador. They may be more to your liking.
2012-12-28 04:59:59 PM  
1 votes:
The Japanese live much longer than we do and have a much better health care system. Need to see a doctor? Walk into any doctor's office, pay a small fee. No insurance, no employer hassles, nothing.
2012-12-28 04:50:49 PM  
1 votes:

Romeo_Santana: What's funny is how the more liberal among us think this doesn't affect them. cmb53208: What makes fundies such awful pieces of shiat?

Is that what CNN and John Stewart told you to think?


I do my own thinking asswipe. Now tell me what fundies are good for since they're anti-freedom, anti-choice, anti-knowledge, and anti-fun? These people are scum.
2012-12-28 04:50:02 PM  
1 votes:

ZeroCorpse: The Greens should shove some Chic-Fil-A up their asses and STFU.

Honestly, I'm sick of these fundies who own corporations thinking they can act like their business is a branch of their church. It's not, and your employees are not your congregation.

Honestly, screw these people.


It's their business, they should be allowed to run it how they want. It was formed from their own biblical beliefs. If they choose to pay the fines instead of complying with the law, good on them.
2012-12-28 04:49:16 PM  
1 votes:
To oppose abortions (and the welfare system in general) as much as they do, it always surprised me how adamant they also are against contraceptives.

Just like the Republicans they voted for, 'compromise' must no longer be a part of their vocabulary.
2012-12-28 04:43:02 PM  
1 votes:

WhoopAssWayne: Convenience abortions should be prosecuted as first degree murder.

Go ahead idiot liberals - open up this can of worms of pushing your beliefs on others through Obamacare and see what kind of a country we end up with. Because it won't take long for the ball to be in the other court, and I have a feeling the next republican president will make G W Bush look like Mahatma Gandhi, and then you dumbasses will really have something to cry about.


lh3.ggpht.com

Retards are so cute.
2012-12-28 04:41:46 PM  
1 votes:

Romeo_Santana: Is that what CNN and John Stewart told you to think?


It's Jon, you farkin dumb ass. I guess it's not important in the bubble you live in.
2012-12-28 04:41:38 PM  
1 votes:

Nabb1: KiTTeNs_on_AciD: This will end well for them. Everyone knows the gays just abhor arts & crafts. No way this could possibly hurt their business more than covering birth control.

I'd think gays would be ambivalent about birth control since they really don't need it to prevent pregnancy.


Ambivalent about birth control maybe, not about evangelicals using religion as an excuse to involve themselves in the private lives of their employees. As it turns out, they have personal experience dealing with similar situations and are capable of empathy.
2012-12-28 04:40:47 PM  
1 votes:

Thunderpipes: Fact that businesses are forced to provide health insurance in the first place is just awful.


If you have insurance through your job, you're a damned hypocrite.

If you think it's horrible that they are forced to provide it, show your principles by refusing to accept it.

Then maybe you have some ground to stand on.
2012-12-28 04:38:31 PM  
1 votes:
i123.photobucket.com

How am I the first?
2012-12-28 04:33:18 PM  
1 votes:

Bontesla: Abe Vigoda's Ghost: ghare: I just spent $40 at Sam Flax instead of Hobby Lobby because of this. Tried to email them a pic of my receipt, but for some reason there doesn't appear o be a link to email them with comments on their website.

That 40 bucks is going to push them right over the edge.

Boycotting them is kind of counter productive. If enough people did that (they won't), it would have more of a negative impact on the employees, then it would the company. Sales are down, you lay off people.

That's assuming you've quit your hobby instead of taking your business elsewhere. Why would you quit your hobby?


Wal*Martization. I don't know exactly how big these guys are as a chain, but I could imagine a scenario where the big guy rolls into town, puts the small hobby shop(s) out of business and becomes the only game within 50 mi.
2012-12-28 04:33:08 PM  
1 votes:
Fact that businesses are forced to provide health insurance in the first place is just awful.
2012-12-28 04:30:39 PM  
1 votes:

cwolf20: On an unrelated note.

Owner with 6 employees figured up the math on providing insurance for the first time to his employees.

It'll be cheaper for him to take a 350 dollar hit per employee including himself and wife. Which wouldn't be an issue except she's never worked there. But the state government told him she always has. Meanwhile the employees will go forth and get Obama care.


I sell health insurance. Took a few classes on Obamacare. The company I work for works with five different health insurance companies. Some are well known, others aren't. When it comes to health insurance, they pretty much all cost about the same. I offer my clients two health insurance packages. The Obamacare package and the non-Obamacare package. I also explain "For a married couple, the Obamacare package is going to run you about $8,000/year. The non-Obamacare package is half that. But you also have to pay the fine for not having it. If you rarely go to the doctor and are generally healthy, take the non-Obamacare package, it is the cheaper way to go."

Of course, I we've already been told that we're going to take a cut in commissions due Health Care reform and that we'd be better off focusing more on the Life Insurance for 2013.
2012-12-28 04:30:19 PM  
1 votes:

Skirl Hutsenreiter: Abe Vigoda's Ghost: ghare: I just spent $40 at Sam Flax instead of Hobby Lobby because of this. Tried to email them a pic of my receipt, but for some reason there doesn't appear o be a link to email them with comments on their website.

That 40 bucks is going to push them right over the edge.

Boycotting them is kind of counter productive. If enough people did that (they won't), it would have more of a negative impact on the employees, then it would the company. Sales are down, you lay off people.

Agreed. Instead of just boycotting, why not print up some facts about Hobby Lobby and birth control and slip them onto shelves.


Because I don't care THAT much. But when I buy art supplies, there are alternatives to Hobby Lobby. So I'll shop at the other places. And I do buy a fair amount of art stuff.
2012-12-28 04:25:46 PM  
1 votes:

ghare: I just spent $40 at Sam Flax instead of Hobby Lobby because of this. Tried to email them a pic of my receipt, but for some reason there doesn't appear o be a link to email them with comments on their website.


I sent money to Planned Parenthood and then posted a screenshot of my contribution receipt to Komen's Facebook page. It was deleted faster than you can say "Abortionplex".
2012-12-28 04:24:18 PM  
1 votes:

cmb53208: What makes fundies such awful pieces of shiat?


Religion.
2012-12-28 04:24:02 PM  
1 votes:

o5iiawah: The My Little Pony Killer: Maybe they should become a church if they want to have church rules.

Or maybe they should be a private company, one of those places where you can choose on your own whether or not to shop there or work there.


dafuq did I just read?
2012-12-28 04:23:28 PM  
1 votes:

Great Janitor: They aren't saying that they don't want their female employees not to be on the pill or whatever, just that they don't want to offer those programs.


Actually, that's exactly what they're saying.
2012-12-28 04:18:53 PM  
1 votes:

cmb53208: What makes fundies such awful pieces of shiat?


Same kind of stuff that make non-fundies also pieces of shiat; nosing into other peoples business.
2012-12-28 04:18:39 PM  
1 votes:

The My Little Pony Killer: Maybe they should become a church if they want to have church rules.


Or maybe they should be a private company, one of those places where you can choose on your own whether or not to shop there or work there.
2012-12-28 04:18:30 PM  
1 votes:
Just pandering to those narrow-minded imbeciles that want to score some brownie points for heaven for their imaginary but insecure sky-wizard.  OH MY, GAWD doesn't like ABORTION or BIRTH CONTROL!  It sez right there in the BAHBULL!!!  Praise the LAWD!!!

Oh, and they just feel the rush of POWER they get for doing this. Doesn't matter how many lives of women they ruin with their little 'hobby' here.

Selfish, goddamn assholes. With money. Lots of goddamn money. Money that goddamn politicians just farkin' LOVE.
2012-12-28 04:16:05 PM  
1 votes:

ThrobblefootSpectre: Religious belief does not make you exempt from law that affects everyone.* You do not get to deny health benefits


Actually, you do if you're a church. Hobby Lobby is a business, so they can cry all they want about their beliefs; the law quite clearly applies to them.
2012-12-28 04:13:53 PM  
1 votes:

KiTTeNs_on_AciD: This will end well for them. Everyone knows the gays just abhor arts & crafts. No way this could possibly hurt their business more than covering birth control.


I'd think gays would be ambivalent about birth control since they really don't need it to prevent pregnancy.
2012-12-28 04:12:30 PM  
1 votes:
Religious belief does not make you exempt from law that affects everyone.* You do not get to deny health benefits, hide your face for a driver's licence photo, beat your children for having a boyfriend, or smoke weed.


*(Unless your ancestors were here before the U.S. existed and peyote is a historically documented part of your religion.)
2012-12-28 04:07:52 PM  
1 votes:

Di Atribe: Hey, why not just follow your employees home to make sure they're not farking for fun?


Hey, don't put that past the Green family. They are, how shall we say, true holy rollers. Of course they live like billionaires, not humble servants of god (that would be their many minimum wage slaves), but you gotta draw the line somewhere, right?
2012-12-28 04:07:03 PM  
1 votes:
This should be on HOTY
2012-12-28 04:04:24 PM  
1 votes:
Submitter: you sir, are a mouthful.
 
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