pxlboy: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: cameroncrazy1984: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: PanicMan: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: So now the State invades religion, and forces some people to pay for abortions against their religious beliefs. Seriously, how is this really different from forcing people to worship a particular religion?

Care to quote the section of the bible that says you can't pay for someone else's abortion?

Care to quote the section of the bible that says that magic mushrooms and licked frog skins are sacred sacraments? It's religious belief, douchbag. Doesn't matter whose religion, or what support it has or doesn't have.

/Go ahead, make some more assumptions about me.

The state doesn't force anyone to pay for someone else's abortion. In fact, there's a law, called the Hyde Amendment, that says no federal tax dollars can go to abortion.

Care to be wrong about anything else?

Mmmm... first, by "State" I refer to the technical term of government (in this case the feds), just in case you thought I meant the STATE government. Second, if the feds tell the company that, yes, they have to pay for employee purchases of contraceptives and other things that the employer's religion defines as abortifacients then yes, indeed, they are forcing them to pay for someone else's abortion.

That, in my book, is interference in the religion.

BTW, just in case you are naive enough to believe in unicorn farts, yes, the "State" operates on force. Period. Defy government and the ultimate response is a bullet.

The government is not there to enforce your religion or anyone else's, for that matter. It it enforcing a secular state. I'm sorry that you think birth control and the morning-after pill are as bad as partial-birth abortion and that life begins at conception, but you don't get to impose your religion on me.

We have enough of that already.

fark. There sure are a lot of Mind Reading Wizards on this thread. FYI, that is NOT my religion, and it's scientifically ridiculous to equate birth control and the morning-after pill with partial-birth abortions. (As for life beginning at conception, OK Mr. Wizard, you tell me where it begins.) But I will defend those whose religious beliefs do hold with that.

You're on a huge slippery slope there, stud. The Unintended Consequences of this ruling will be really something, and you kn ow what? I suspect you libs will be the first ones to whine about them.

pxlboy: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Wally007: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: KiTTeNs_on_AciD: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: So now the State invades religion, and forces some people to pay for abortions against their religious beliefs. Seriously, how is this really different from forcing people to worship a particular religion?

Because telling someone the health care they provide to employees must cover standard medications is not the same as forcing them to cease or begin any kind of worship to anyone. If you had to seriously ask that you should immediately stop sharing your opinions on anything.

Ah ah ahhh! No changing context, please. The issue is whether the State has the right to force someone who has a set of religious beliefs to act contrary to those beliefs.

Questions:

If I am a devout Black Muslim, who does charity work for destitute Blacks, does the State have the right to force me to also do charity work for destitute whites?

If I am a principled Atheist who makes charitable contributions to causes that promote Atheism, does the State have the right to force me to also make contributions to devout Catholic or Muslim causes?

Be honest now....

If you own and run a business in this country, the State absolutely has the right to tell you how you may do that, yes,

So, in theory, there is no difference (except in degree) between the United States and Nazi Germany?

It took this many comments for someone to Godwin the conversation?

That's not a Godwin, Runaway Boy. It's a valid comparison. When the Nazis (National Socialists) took control in Germany they nationalized some industries, but left most in private hands - but throttled a huge number of them with on-premises oversight by a National Socialist political officer. The rest haqd to do what they were told, when they were told, and how they were told. Look it up; it's called History. YOU said: "If you own and run a business in this country, the State absolutely has the right to tell you how you may do that, yes," So: in principle, what's the difference? Give me a straight answer or STFU.

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: When the Nazis (National Socialists) took control in Germany they nationalized some industries,

Okay you have a valid comparison. What industries has Obama nationalized, again?

cameroncrazy1984: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Mmmm... first, by "State" I refer to the technical term of government (in this case the feds), just in case you thought I meant the STATE government. Second, if the feds tell the company that, yes, they have to pay for employee purchases of contraceptives and other things that the employer's religion defines as abortifacients then yes, indeed, they are forcing them to pay for someone else's abortion

No you're not, because it doesn't matter what your religion is, it matters what science says. And science says you're still wrong.

Additionally, a corporation is not a religious entity so you're STILL wrong!

Sigh.

>>>>"...it doesn't matter what your religion is, it matters what science says." Yeah, and the science is always 100% right, right? There were a whole bunch of scientists in Nazi Germany who declared that Jews were subhuman and needed to be exterminated. There were a whole bunch of scientists in the Soviet Union who toed the Party line against Darwinian evolution, Virtually the whole Geological scientific establishment had to be dragged screaming into accepting plate tectonics. There are endless examples. Oh, you say the "science is settled"? Really? That's a profoundly unscientific statement. Science by it's very nature is never settled.

>>>>>"Additionally, a corporation is not a religious entity so you're STILL wrong!"

No, but that corporation is closely held, maybe even by one person, and that group or individual is religious, it is a violation of their/his religious freedom to dictate (Seig Heil) that they must violate their religious principles in order to remain in business.

Fascism is alive and well in America. USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! ......

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Yeah, and the science is always 100% right, right? There were a whole bunch of scientists in Nazi Germany who declared that Jews were subhuman and needed to be exterminated.

No, there were a bunch of crazy people. Are you really comparing American scientists to Nazis?

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: No, but that corporation is closely held, maybe even by one person, and that group or individual is religious, it is a violation of their/his religious freedom to dictate (Seig Heil) that they must violate their religious principles in order to remain in business.

Again, no it isn't. Corporations don't get special rights because the owner "really" believes something. Sorry, it's just not part of US law.

The Why Not Guy: Nabb1: I'd think gays would be ambivalent about birth control since they really don't need it to prevent pregnancy.

Really?

As Sandra "Slut" Fluke testified, many women need birth control pills for medical reasons that have nothing to do with having sex or preventing pregnancy. There's also a big benefit to gay men and lesbians in using contraceptives such as condoms or dental dams. They prevent the spread of STDs and HIV, even among same-sex couples who aren't worried about pregnancy.

In that case it's a drug that fix some medical condition that has a side effect of preventing birth

Fun fact: there's no space on the business registration form for "Religion of Business/Owner"

I wonder why that would be.

vernonFL: [encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com image 230x219]
Do you see that? Its a modern reflector on an Amish buggy. The Amish did not want to put modern reflectors on their buggies, but the law says they have to.

That probably doesn't violate any of the Amish beliefs.

Methinks you don't understand Amish folk.

Lee Jackson Beauregard: This applies, it seems, to companies run by Bible thumpers, but not to companies with union contracts in states without a Right to Freeload on the UnionWork law.

If unions offered value for membership, people would join voluntarily. The ACLU and NRA will spend millions of dollars fighting for the rights of non-paying members and rely on voluntary contributions to sustain their activities. What are unions so afraid of that they need compulsory membership in order to survive? The NRA and ACLU dont seem to have a problem with freeloaders

cameroncrazy1984: Okay you have a valid comparison. What industries has Obama nationalized, again?

automotive, banking, housing, student loans, healthcare.

Some are more nationalized than others but public/private partnerships, aka cronyism are alive and well. There's still other options in the marketplace but eventually, UAW Ford workers will tire of seeing their income taxes go to the guys across town who are getting paid to produce cars that nobody wants to buy. Government is the only entity that has a monopoly of force and eventually, businesses will fold since they cant levy taxes or pass laws to force people to buy their stuff.

o5iiawah: automotive, banking, housing, student loans, healthcare.

Some are more nationalized than others

Uh, you don't understand the meaning of the word "nationalized"

Here, let me help you out:

Nationalize:to bring under the ownership or control of a nation.Now please explain to me which of these industries is owned by the government.Automotive isn't. the US doesn't even own a majority of GM, much less literally any other automotive company in the USStudent loans: Nope, you can still get a private student loan from Citi or Nelnet or othersHousing: Nope you can still buy and sell houses from private companies.Healthcare: Nope, you can still get healthcare wholly from a private company or insurer.Now please, can you find even  ONE industry that has been nationalized in the US? Oil? Anything?

gopher321: [mojoimage.com image 500x333]


Dobby approves of the headline

It was a bad headline.  I was so saddened by it that I got rather sobby.

WhoopAssWayne: Convenience abortions should be prosecuted as first degree murder.

Go ahead idiot liberals - open up this can of worms of pushing your beliefs on others through Obamacare and see what kind of a country we end up with. Because it won't take long for the ball to be in the other court, and I have a feeling the next republican president will make G W Bush look like Mahatma Gandhi, and then you dumbasses will really have something to cry about.

Well, keep enjoying that feeling.

specialkae: Cool HL story time: Few years back I was in my local Hobby Lobby in Cowtown and was doing some shopping but also considering applying there since they offered a decent starting wage. What stopped me from applying was a young lady in one of the home decor aisles speaking to a customer about how she was a member of a Bible study group and that they met on Wednesdays and how delighted she and her brethren/sisteren would be if said customer would but consent to join them. Sorry, Hobby Lobby, you're a business. Either run it as such or STFU and if you don't hush it, hope you get sued to kingdom come and may your sanctimonious asses be handed to you as was the head of John the Baptist delivered to Salome on a silver platter. Sadly, HL does have the best selection of dollhouse kits I've found in a brick and mortar store and have put it off, as one of my reasons is shipping of delicate parts and returning items from an online retailer. They have received no further business from me except for the one time I took an out of town houseguest at her request there and chose not to delve into why I boycotted the company. Amazon, who has a better return policy than I would've imagined, should have the same dollhouse kits for cheaper, so HL and all of their nonsense may go fly a kite and hopefully go down in flames for their neglect of the health and consideration of their employees and their families. I will not shed a tear to see them all close shop permanently and GTFU of my state.  I pray it is soon.

wow. go fark yourself.

i've been a farker for longer than most of the anti-hobby lobby farkers in this thread, and this thread has made me realize that Fark now belongs to a younger generation of utter douchebags.

I stopped using facebook once I realized it's basically just self-aggrandizement and Farmville updates. Pretty sure Fark has now become a wing of the Obama administration. That's too bad, because this site was awesome.

PepperFreak: I don't understand why you teabaggers have a problem with this.
The only people who will take advantage of birth control and abortion are liberals and brown people, right? You pay for enough of it and surely within a few generations this country will turn into a glorious white Jesusland.
Pay a little now, live in a glorious Fatherland later. It seems like a good investment. Call it a solution to your problems. Carry it out far enough and it might even turn into a, how to say it, final solution?

You're a tool.

cbathrob

This thread is further proof that calling oneself a Libertarian is the simplest, most elegant IQ test ever devised--along with support for Ron Paul or the gold standard. Might as well just wear a helmet at all times, because you lack the sense that the FSM gave dirt.

So, why did Ron Paul run on the republican ticket this election?

That was annoying.. the whole thing went into quotes

mwfark: The govt is forcing Hobby Lobby to act in a way that conflicts with their beliefs, so I'm proud of this private enterprise for standing its ground against an aggressively coercive government. I believe in freedom, and Hobby Lobby should be free to run it's business as the owners see fit, and the employees are free to seek work elsewhere if they don't like it.

Just Another OC Homeless Guy:
No, but that corporation is closely held, maybe even by one person, and that group or individual is religious, it is a violation of their/his religious freedom to dictate (Seig Heil) that they must violate their religious principles in order to remain in business.

Fascism is alive and well in America. USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! ......

But on the flip-side, it's apparently perfectly acceptable for a business owner to be the one dictating.

TanHamster: That's too bad, because this site was awesome.

Well, bye.

cmb53208: What makes fundies such awful pieces of shiat?

Actually the nastiest name calling unpleasant crybabies in this thread are on the government's side. Count them.

CreampuffCasperMilktoast: ghare: If Hobby Lobby closes due to a drop in sales, due to them being perceived by the public left as douchebags, then another art store will move in to take their place, and they will hire basically the same number of employees as Hobby Lobby did.

FTFY.... Let's see how bad it was for business last time.....

[www.frugal-cafe.com image 709x413]

How cute.  That was the one day bump in sales that they had.  Their sales for the entire quarter dropped.  Lol.

STRYPERSWINE: cmb53208: What makes fundies such awful pieces of shiat?

Actually the nastiest name calling unpleasant crybabies in this thread are on the government's side. Count them.

Okay: 1

You.

cameroncrazy1984: TanHamster: That's too bad, because this site was awesome.

Well, bye.

hey, douchebag, by any chance do you play a lot of video games? not married? no kids? still live in an apartment? in your 30s?

i'm all for ad hominem attacks, because it greatly simplifies the process of arguing with some 35 yr old who plays call of duty, and still thinks he knows jack shiat about being an adult

TanHamster: cameroncrazy1984: TanHamster: That's too bad, because this site was awesome.

Well, bye.

hey, douchebag, by any chance do you play a lot of video games? not married? no kids? still live in an apartment? in your 30s?

i'm all for ad hominem attacks, because it greatly simplifies the process of arguing with some 35 yr old who plays call of duty, and still thinks he knows jack shiat about being an adult

I'm still in my twenties, and by the time I get to be whatever age you are, I hope I'm not nearly as irrationally angry about my life as you appear to be about yours. Because wow do you fly off the handle way too easily. Calm down. It's the Internet, gramps.

wait, what's wrong with being in your 30s and still enjoying video games? :-(

bottled redhead rage or natural redhead rage? One is just being witchy the other is being feisty.

/feisty

Weaver95: Uniquely Common: wait, what's wrong with being in your 30s and still enjoying video games? :-(

got me.  I've worked nights and weekends for over 15 years.  which means I don't usually get home till after midnight.  only thing you can do at 1am is drink or log into an online game and play games with folks in another time zone.  And drinking alone gets boring real fast. video games + rum shooters are a bit less pathetic than just the rum.

FWIW, I'm 32, so apparently that makes me geriatric on Fark. I'm an engineer with a wife and son, and I work with "bros" my age who are doing the exact same thing they've been doing since graduating from college: playing video games, microwaving pizza shooters, and banging different chicks every few weeks.

Said bros then login to Fark and start firing full broadsides against people with values who don't necessarily believe that the gubmint should force employers to pay the costs associated with recreational sex.

My priority is the health and safety of my fambly, so health insurance to me means something that averts personal bankruptcy when someone is seriously sick or injured. It doesn't mean having the gubmint force my employer to pay for contraception and convenience abortions.

cameroncrazy1984: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: When the Nazis (National Socialists) took control in Germany they nationalized some industries,

Okay you have a valid comparison. What industries has Obama nationalized, again?

Sigh.

>>>>What industries has Obama nationalized, again?

Mention of nationalization was a context/history lesson, dumbass, as you (hopefully) well know (re-read my post). If you really don't, then rational discussion with you is hopeless.

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: ghare: I just spent $40 at Sam Flax instead of Hobby Lobby because of this. Tried to email them a pic of my receipt, but for some reason there doesn't appear o be a link to email them with comments on their website.

That 40 bucks is going to push them right over the edge.

Boycotting them is kind of counter productive. If enough people did that (they won't), it would have more of a negative impact on the employees, then it would the company. Sales are down, you lay off people.

Boycott them, shop at other hobby stores. HL sees decrease in business and lays people off. Other hobby stores see increase and hire more people. I'm really tired of this "think of the minimum-wage slaves" argument when it comes to boycotting. Sure, as a minimum-wage slave myself, I empathize. But just how else is society supposed to show displeasure toward a company behaving badly? Send strongly-worded letters?

Lee Jackson Beauregard: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: "If you own and run a business in this country, the State absolutely has the right to tell you how you may do that, yes," So: in principle, what's the difference? Give me a straight answer or STFU.

It's called "the law", or are you claiming that businesses are above the law?

Ah yes, "the law." Hmmmm... there are so many ways I could answer this.....

But I suggest you read a fun little book by a gentleman named Frederic Bastiat Link (pick your edition).

Ummm.... which law are we talking about, again? The Constitutional provision that Negros were to be counted as 3/5ths of a human being? Or was it the various laws that Negros could not own firearms? Or maybe the law that required Jews to sew yellow stars on their clothing? Or is it the current law that women cannot leave their homes without having an escort of a male relative? Or the one where a rape is considered the fault of the woman and the penalty is death by stoning?

The point is this: the above were/are all laws that were passed by lawful governing authority - i.e.: the legal government of the time and place concerned. So to re-ask your own question: It's called "the law", or are you claiming that people are above the law?

I'm really not evading answering your question, I'm trying to make this a learning experience. Please think about: what IS law; what is it's purpose? Who can legitimately make it? And beyond: what is government? What makes a government legitimate? How is a "legitimate" government different from a bandit warlord who exercises a monopoly of force over his domain, extracts supplies and provisions from the peasants in that area, impresses them into the gang, and protects them from the other warlords who want to do the same thing? (Warning, this is a trick question.)

Lee Jackson Beauregard: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Fascism is alive and well in America.

[i80.photobucket.com image 300x470]

Nice that the wingnuts are finally noticing.

That list needs a little work. Actually a lot of work. Unless, of course, it's vying for the Best Fiction of the Year award. Oh, and nice of you elevate it's dismal status by throwing in some ad hominem.

cameroncrazy1984: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Yeah, and the science is always 100% right, right? There were a whole bunch of scientists in Nazi Germany who declared that Jews were subhuman and needed to be exterminated.

No, there were a bunch of crazy people. Are you really comparing American scientists to Nazis?

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: No, but that corporation is closely held, maybe even by one person, and that group or individual is religious, it is a violation of their/his religious freedom to dictate (Seig Heil) that they must violate their religious principles in order to remain in business.

Again, no it isn't. Corporations don't get special rights because the owner "really" believes something. Sorry, it's just not part of US law.

Are you aware of the fact that individuals can become corporations? so... where would you draw the line? Also, under US law, corporations are considered to be individuals in most ways?

dr_blasto: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: cameroncrazy1984: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Mmmm... first, by "State" I refer to the technical term of government (in this case the feds), just in case you thought I meant the STATE government. Second, if the feds tell the company that, yes, they have to pay for employee purchases of contraceptives and other things that the employer's religion defines as abortifacients then yes, indeed, they are forcing them to pay for someone else's abortion

No you're not, because it doesn't matter what your religion is, it matters what science says. And science says you're still wrong.

Additionally, a corporation is not a religious entity so you're STILL wrong!

Sigh.

>>>>"...it doesn't matter what your religion is, it matters what science says." Yeah, and the science is always 100% right, right? There were a whole bunch of scientists in Nazi Germany who declared that Jews were subhuman and needed to be exterminated. There were a whole bunch of scientists in the Soviet Union who toed the Party line against Darwinian evolution, Virtually the whole Geological scientific establishment had to be dragged screaming into accepting plate tectonics. There are endless examples. Oh, you say the "science is settled"? Really? That's a profoundly unscientific statement. Science by it's very nature is never settled.

>>>>>"Additionally, a corporation is not a religious entity so you're STILL wrong!"

No, but that corporation is closely held, maybe even by one person, and that group or individual is religious, it is a violation of their/his religious freedom to dictate (Seig Heil) that they must violate their religious principles in order to remain in business.

Fascism is alive and well in America. USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! ......

Lol, what are you on? Fascism? Nazi scientists?

Your godwin got all over the wall and stained the carpet. I hope your happy.

LOL! The history of godwining is interesting. Yes, it's been used (correctly) when someone, for example, has gone full retard with "But Nazis" when having an argument over a chess game. But it's also often used incorrectly, as a rhetorical (i.e.: cowardly) deflection from having to respond to someone who has made a valid point (as in: "Ha ha! You mentioned Nazi's so you lose!".

This present case is of the 2nd sort.

>>>>Lol, what are you on? Fascism? Nazi scientists?

So... what exactly is your point? Do you disagree that the United States exhibits some characteristics of Fascism? Do you disagree that the Nazi's had scientists? What? Please be specific. Try not to commit an ad hominem.

Beavz0r: Just Another OC Homeless Guy:
No, but that corporation is closely held, maybe even by one person, and that group or individual is religious, it is a violation of their/his religious freedom to dictate (Seig Heil) that they must violate their religious principles in order to remain in business.

Fascism is alive and well in America. USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! ......

But on the flip-side, it's apparently perfectly acceptable for a business owner to be the one dictating.

Sigh.

Yes, particularly when he is holding a gun to your head, forcing you to work, and you are chained to the desk and cannot quit your job at any farking time.

Seriously, are you THAT context-challenged that you don't understand the difference between a LAW (enforced with guns) and a VOLUNTARY BUSINESS RELATIONSHIP? Seriously?

Day_Old_Dutchie: Just pandering to those narrow-minded imbeciles that want to score some brownie points for heaven for their imaginary but insecure sky-wizard.  OH MY, GAWD doesn't like ABORTION or BIRTH CONTROL!  It sez right there in the BAHBULL!!!  Praise the LAWD!!!

Oh, and they just feel the rush of POWER they get for doing this. Doesn't matter how many lives of women they ruin with their little 'hobby' here.

Selfish, goddamn assholes. With money. Lots of goddamn money. Money that goddamn politicians just farkin' LOVE.

Hey, don't think all of us Christens are like these morons. That's just plain stupid.