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(NewsOK)   Hobby Lobby to continue hobby of lobbying Appeals Court to allow their other hobby of lobbing their beliefs on their employees private lobby hobbies   (newsok.com) divider line 526
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7701 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Dec 2012 at 4:02 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-28 06:02:34 PM

giftedmadness: conservative Christians donate more to help the poor than anyone else


They give more to their churches, maybe.

How much of that actually HELPS the poor versus how much lines the pockets of the church leadership, and how much goes towards proselyting, is another question altogether.

FYI, telling the poor that they're going to burn in hell unless they join your church isn't "helping" them.
 
2012-12-28 06:03:03 PM
Now I don't feel so bad about all the shiat I broke there.
 
2012-12-28 06:04:28 PM

Bontesla: imtheonlylp: Bontesla: imtheonlylp: ok, here goes..

if you don't like it, then find another job...it's not mandatory that you believe what they do nor is it mandatory that you are employed there...

Your logic:
1). Law is created to protect employees.
2). Employer violates law.
3). Punish employee.

don't really think they're "punishing" anyone...employees are welcome to get their own insurance wherever they please...

My logic:
1) You don't agree with a business or their ethics or even their stance on any issue.
2) Don't work there and don't shop there.
3) Problem solved.

That's not actual logic. Your conclusion isn't a deduction made from your premises. It's not even inductive logic.

And if you don't think that the loss of work isn't a punishment for employees at the Hobby Lobby then you might just pass as a Romney son.


meh, whatever...i still say if ya dont like it, gtfo and go flip burgers or something...and stay off my lawn... but stop biatching about it...

"their freedom to express themselves religiously is oppressing my freedom to work wherever i choose"

pretty useless argument the way i see it...

/yep, blind republican...my bad
 
2012-12-28 06:06:34 PM
Cruisng the local Chick-a-Fillet for fresh, ready-to-emerge-from-the-closet poultry eaters.

www.frugal-cafe.com
 
2012-12-28 06:06:56 PM
Who here honestly believes that it is perfectly OK for the owners of a business to impose their religious beliefs on employees?

We're talking about employees of a business here, not the clergy of a religious institution.
 
2012-12-28 06:06:59 PM

liam76: giftedmadness: Um...#1 violates the employers right to practice their religion.

BS.

No religion I have ever heard of says you can't partake in insurance.

If religions were to argue that any insurance they pay for has to follow their beliefs then what would stop people from claiming that they are christian scientists, and can pay for no procedures?

The fact is insurance, like OSHA standards are requirements if you want to employ people in the US. Saying they can't support insurance that allows BC is no different than saying they don't want their employees to wear respirators in a toxic environment.


Providing insurance to employees was a law before Obamacare?
 
2012-12-28 06:07:59 PM

KiTTeNs_on_AciD: KidneyStone: I have a big problem with the government making it a law that health insurance must pay for contraceptives. Ya wanna fark and not make babies? Cool, but don't make my health insurance costs go up because of it.

Your insurance would go up a lot more if they had the babies, what are you complaining about again? How about people who stuff their face with fast food and sugary soda all the time? It's cool with me, but don't make my insurance go up for all the blood pressure meds, cholesterol meds, insulin and diabetes testing supplies needed by people who make poor decisions. Also, I'm sick of paying for these stupid farking scooters they are giving old people who break their ankles, crutches work just fine you slackers! And don't even get me started on the motorized chairs for fat people.


Yet another ding dong enters the arena.

Y'all are missing a huge concept: Personal responsibility! That's where people are held responsible for their actions and have to handle the results of their decisions!

I'm not saying they can't HAVE contraceptives. I don't think anyone should pay for it unless you're one of the folks getting laid. Simple as that. Nothing more, nothing less.

If you cannot afford contraceptives then you can't afford a child. Therefore you shouldn't be screwing! Or use a different hole. I don't care what you do as long as it doesn't affect anyone else.
 
2012-12-28 06:08:36 PM

dr_blasto: KidneyStone: Bontesla: KidneyStone: Bontesla: KidneyStone: I have a big problem with the government making it a law that health insurance must pay for contraceptives. Ya wanna fark and not make babies? Cool, but don't make my health insurance costs go up because of it.

Uhm your health insurance costs Do go up because employers weren't forced to cover things like contraception. Who do you think eats those costs when an uninsured mother gives birth?

Uhm, the doctor/hospital, not the insurance company.

Wait - you think doctors and hospitals are giving out free medical care? With no compensation? Just for free because... They're notoriously nice?

Are you that naive or are you that stupid? If an uninsured mother is giving birth then where does she go? Doctor? Hospital? You pick one of those and tell us which one will turn away a woman in labor. If she is uninsured then how do the insurance companies get stuck with the bill? Do you suppose there's some general "uninsured mothers fund" where they all chip in or is it more of a round-robin thing where State Farm pays one week and then it's up to UHC and the next week it's someone else?

And they call ME stupid here.

LOL.

Insurance companies pay inflated prices that, when spread out, cover for the uninsured. Hospitals don't just eat those costs, they charge $900 for a friggin aspirin.


Thanks for covering. I was finishing up work.
 
2012-12-28 06:10:50 PM

ProfessorOhki: giftedmadness: Bontesla: imtheonlylp: ok, here goes..

if you don't like it, then find another job...it's not mandatory that you believe what they do nor is it mandatory that you are employed there...

Your logic:
1). Law is created to protect employees.
2). Employer violates law.
3). Punish employee.

Um...#1 violates the employers right to practice their religion....

...and forcing the employee to adhere to their employer's religion doesn't interfere with their right to not be subject to their employer's religion? Hobby Lobby's owners are more than free to not use contraception - they don't get to make the choice for their employees. Well, I suppose unless sex and/or procreation are part of their duties as employees, but I'm thinking it isn't that sort of place.


They aren't PREVENTING them from using contraception.  If one of their employees uses a contraceptive that the employee pays for herself, she will not be fired.  No freedom is abridged.
 
2012-12-28 06:12:21 PM

lennavan: Sin_City_Superhero: KidneyStone: I have a big problem with the government making it a law that health insurance must pay for contraceptives. Ya wanna fark and not make babies? Cool, but don't make my health insurance costs go up because of it.

Insurance that pays for contraception is cheaper than insurance that doesn't, and has to pay to deliver an unwanted baby, then maintain it's health for years, and years. How do you not understand this. A rubber costs a couple of bucks. How much does it cost to bring a baby to term, you dolt?

Well when you pop the kid out, $3-5000 will cover the room depending on if you're there two or three nights. As for the doctors/nurses, procedures/meds, etc well those are gonna be extra. And don't get me started on the pregnant lady checkups.

So instead of paying $3,000 for the room for two nights, you could just pay for 60 months of birth control if you have no insurance.

/One of these days I'm gonna do all of the math out to see how many months of non insured BC you can get for a single kid, starting from maternal care to popping it out.


Another genius missing my point.

Imma try again a different way:
Where does the law say that if health insurance doesn't cover contraceptives then people are not allowed to buy their own?

The arguments here are all "if the health insurance doesn't cover birth control then a babby will be formed"
 
2012-12-28 06:12:39 PM

ProfessorOhki: KiTTeNs_on_AciD: ProfessorOhki:

The hospital has several places where they can make up the shortfall: they can pay staff less, they can understaff, they jack up the insured patients' bills, they can put off building maintenance. You're both right, stupids.

/The only thing they can't do is cut admin salaries
//I mean, obviously

Hospitals do not have several places where they can make up the shortfall. They can increase revenue, or decrease expenses. The former is billing the paying patients more which I mentioned, the latter involves shorting the quality of care that is provided. No one in their right mind would argue that providing lower quality care to insured patients is a viable solution, not while malpractice liability exists.

You honestly believe skipping annual (monthly) HVAC maintenance or not replacing burned out florescent light bulbs right-away is how hospitals cover their losses from treating uninsured patients?

No, but working staff long hours without enough pay to make up for it is a form of decreasing expenses and you better believe it happens. So, go ahead and tell me again how doctors bear none of the burden.


I can't tell you that again because I never told you the first time. What I can tell you again is that it is standard practice to bill over cost by 500% or more on basic items and procedures. This is no secret.

Also, I personally know too many ICU nurses to pretend for a second that hospitals aren't willing to exploit their employees passion for helping people when it benefits them financially. I just wouldn't argue that the exploitation makes up much of the ~$49B cost of treating the uninsured. Just like any other business, hospitals pass their costs on to the consumer.
 
2012-12-28 06:13:00 PM

CreampuffCasperMilktoast: ghare: If Hobby Lobby closes due to a drop in sales, due to them being perceived by the public left as douchebags, then another art store will move in to take their place, and they will hire basically the same number of employees as Hobby Lobby did.

FTFY.... Let's see how bad it was for business last time.....

[www.frugal-cafe.com image 709x413]


Yup. Boycotts and protests don't work.

i651.photobucket.com

i651.photobucket.com

i651.photobucket.com

Thank god our privately-owned lunch counters can decide who they want to serve based upon the color of their skin, without the Federal government coming in with their "laws" impinging on our frrrrrrdoooommssss!!1
 
2012-12-28 06:14:02 PM

mcmiller: KidneyStone: I'm against my healthcare costs going up to pay for contraceptives. And that includes what I use.

How do you feel about your health care costs going up due to unplanned or unwanted pregnancies?

Birth control costs much much less than prenatal care, delivery with potential complications, postpartum care of the mother and then years of pediatric care.


Point missed. Look up personal responsibility
 
2012-12-28 06:14:35 PM
This is a simple concept people. If the owners of Hobby Lobby believe that abortion is murder, they have a moral responsibility to not pay for said murders.

But - I know there is no way but the liberal way and liberals have the right to dictate to people what they must believe and how they must spend their money. The Russians and Chinese communists use forced labor camps, jail and sometimes murder to enforce their ideologies on people. You liberals should look into it. I hear its very effective.
 
2012-12-28 06:16:18 PM

giftedmadness: ProfessorOhki: giftedmadness: Bontesla: imtheonlylp: ok, here goes..

if you don't like it, then find another job...it's not mandatory that you believe what they do nor is it mandatory that you are employed there...

Your logic:
1). Law is created to protect employees.
2). Employer violates law.
3). Punish employee.

Um...#1 violates the employers right to practice their religion....

...and forcing the employee to adhere to their employer's religion doesn't interfere with their right to not be subject to their employer's religion? Hobby Lobby's owners are more than free to not use contraception - they don't get to make the choice for their employees. Well, I suppose unless sex and/or procreation are part of their duties as employees, but I'm thinking it isn't that sort of place.

They aren't PREVENTING them from using contraception.  If one of their employees uses a contraceptive that the employee pays for herself, she will not be fired.  No freedom is abridged.


You're not getting it. It has nothing to do with it being contraception or insurance. The employer should not be applying their religion to their employees in any way, shape, or form.
 
2012-12-28 06:17:16 PM

garron: This is a simple concept people. If the owners of Hobby Lobby believe that abortion is murder, they have a moral responsibility to not pay for said murders.

But - I know there is no way but the liberal way and liberals have the right to dictate to people what they must believe and how they must spend their money. The Russians and Chinese communists use forced labor camps, jail and sometimes murder to enforce their ideologies on people. You liberals should look into it. I hear its very effective.


They also believe that contraception (regardless of its use) is abortion. They also believe all sorts of other crazy sh*t.
 
2012-12-28 06:18:50 PM

Soymilk: ghare: I just spent $40 at Sam Flax instead of Hobby Lobby because of this. Tried to email them a pic of my receipt, but for some reason there doesn't appear o be a link to email them with comments on their website.

I sent money to Planned Parenthood and then posted a screenshot of my contribution receipt to Komen's Facebook page. It was deleted faster than you can say "Abortionplex".


Pic or it didn't happen :P
 
2012-12-28 06:19:09 PM

KiTTeNs_on_AciD: I can't tell you that again because I never told you the first time. What I can tell you again is that it is standard practice to bill over cost by 500% or more on basic items and procedures. This is no secret.


I suppose you didn't. I was getting your posts interlaced with someone else who was arguing with KidneyStone and seemed to imply that 100% of the additional cost was pushed to insurance w/o any impact on the doctors/hospital operations.
 
2012-12-28 06:20:15 PM

pxlboy: garron: This is a simple concept people. If the owners of Hobby Lobby believe that abortion is murder, they have a moral responsibility to not pay for said murders.

But - I know there is no way but the liberal way and liberals have the right to dictate to people what they must believe and how they must spend their money. The Russians and Chinese communists use forced labor camps, jail and sometimes murder to enforce their ideologies on people. You liberals should look into it. I hear its very effective.

They also believe that contraception (regardless of its use) is abortion. They also believe all sorts of other crazy sh*t.


So what. One of the great parts of our formerly "free" country was that an employee could choose where they work. If you don't like a company's policies - don't work there, don't shop there and talk bad about them all you want - but don't force them to believe your "crazy sh*t".
 
2012-12-28 06:20:28 PM

imtheonlylp: Bontesla: imtheonlylp: ok, here goes..

if you don't like it, then find another job...it's not mandatory that you believe what they do nor is it mandatory that you are employed there...

Your logic:
1). Law is created to protect employees.
2). Employer violates law.
3). Punish employee.

don't really think they're "punishing" anyone...employees are welcome to get their own insurance wherever they please...

My logic:
1) You don't agree with a business or their ethics or even their stance on any issue.
2) Don't work there and don't shop there.
3) Problem solved.


Your logic is detrimental to residents of small towns (small being under say 15,000k people with no larger population around) that have one large employer that half the city works for. Think lumber towns of old that when that industry started to die, the municipalities had to replace that loss with another industry or the whole economy goes to shiat. I know. I've lived in and out of one for most of my life. Now say that single large employer wants to impress their particular beliefs on the other corporation that handles their insurance portfolio and they decide to cancel the policies.

Now apply your "just don't shop or work there then, problem solved" logic. Now you have a city full of people that are out of a job, with little prospects as the "local" jobs all have 600 applicants from people not even remotely qualified to do picture framing or sell custom shoes. The large employer simply closes up shop, absorbs the loss and focuses on profitable stores in some other county or state. The residents are stuck with a gaping hole in damn near everything from the tax revenues (even at steep discounts for the employer) for the city, higher tax burdens later, cutbacks across the board, loss job opportunities, less money in circulation and discretionary income......and......and......I guess the point is your logic doesn't really work except on a piece of paper and Hobby Lobby needs to get with the times and realize they are a public company, not a church. I could care less if they are all Hindus, Muslims, Jews or whatever in your personal life, but if you provide for all your employees, then you should do just that.
 
2012-12-28 06:20:55 PM

pxlboy: randomjsa: Once again...

Government: You must do this! It's the law because we say so!

Private Company: We don't want to do that, it violates our personal religious beliefs.

Liberals: Private company! Stop "forcing" your beliefs on your employees!

The only group here using force is the government because its the only thing in this scenario that can even use force but in the twisted and deranged mind of a liberal, somehow it becomes the company forcing things on people that they don't want instead of the government.

The Establishment clause exists for a reason. I'm sorry this bothers you.

We now return you to your regularly-scheduled flamewar.


cdn.chud.com
 
2012-12-28 06:21:09 PM

KidneyStone: Look up personal responsibility


Sure thing! Let's see, P... Peanut... Ah, here we go.

Personal Responsiblity n.
1. What conservatives constantly preach but rarely, if ever, actually practice.

Hey, there's a picture of Craig T. Nelson next to the definition!

garron: If the owners of Hobby Lobby believe that abortion is murder, they have a moral responsibility to not pay for said murders.


So you're OK if Cindy Sheehan and death penalty opposers also sued the government because they too have a moral responsibility not to pay for murder?
 
2012-12-28 06:21:33 PM
The govt is forcing Hobby Lobby to act in a way that conflicts with their beliefs, so I'm proud of this private enterprise for standing its ground against an aggressively coercive government. I believe in freedom, and Hobby Lobby should be free to run it's business as the owners see fit, and the employees are free to seek work elsewhere if they don't like it.
 
2012-12-28 06:22:23 PM

KidneyStone: lennavan: Sin_City_Superhero: KidneyStone: I have a big problem with the government making it a law that health insurance must pay for contraceptives. Ya wanna fark and not make babies? Cool, but don't make my health insurance costs go up because of it.

Insurance that pays for contraception is cheaper than insurance that doesn't, and has to pay to deliver an unwanted baby, then maintain it's health for years, and years. How do you not understand this. A rubber costs a couple of bucks. How much does it cost to bring a baby to term, you dolt?

Well when you pop the kid out, $3-5000 will cover the room depending on if you're there two or three nights. As for the doctors/nurses, procedures/meds, etc well those are gonna be extra. And don't get me started on the pregnant lady checkups.

So instead of paying $3,000 for the room for two nights, you could just pay for 60 months of birth control if you have no insurance.

/One of these days I'm gonna do all of the math out to see how many months of non insured BC you can get for a single kid, starting from maternal care to popping it out.

Another genius missing my point.

Imma try again a different way:
Where does the law say that if health insurance doesn't cover contraceptives then people are not allowed to buy their own?

The arguments here are all "if the health insurance doesn't cover birth control then a babby will be formed"


Nobody is missing your point, your point is just stupid. We don't get to pick and choose pet causes to kick out of health care plans. Family planning and reproductive health are covered. End of story. This thread is only playing out from their because the rest of us are fascinated with your fixation on punishing people who want sex and not children. People who don't use contraception (have kids), people with poor diets who don't exercise, and smokers will cost you more in the long run. Where is the outrage for that? Why this fixation on people who are getting laid and don't want kids or more kids?
 
2012-12-28 06:24:11 PM

vernonFL: Christian Science Pharmacist refuses to fill any prescription


WTF? Don't they believe in faith healing? Be like an Amish robotics engineer.
 
2012-12-28 06:24:17 PM

mwfark: I believe in freedom


Yep, the freedom to do what our corporate and religious masters tell us to do. Now STFU, GBTW, and remember prayer is at 7am sharp if you want to keep your job, you good for nothing layabout.
 
2012-12-28 06:25:00 PM

KiTTeNs_on_AciD: Why this fixation on people who are getting laid and don't want kids or more kids?


Jealousy?
 
2012-12-28 06:25:13 PM

Jim_Tressel's_O-Face: KidneyStone: Look up personal responsibility

Sure thing! Let's see, P... Peanut... Ah, here we go.

Personal Responsiblity n.
1. What conservatives constantly preach but rarely, if ever, actually practice.

Hey, there's a picture of Craig T. Nelson next to the definition!

garron: If the owners of Hobby Lobby believe that abortion is murder, they have a moral responsibility to not pay for said murders.

So you're OK if Cindy Sheehan and death penalty opposers also sued the government because they too have a moral responsibility not to pay for murder?


Absolutely. I don't agree with Sheehan politically or her motivations, but I do know that slavery would not have ended if people did not exercise their moral responsibility to do everything in their power to put an end to it. If that's what she believes, she needs to make her case. If she's right, people will listen.
 
2012-12-28 06:25:43 PM

KiTTeNs_on_AciD: fanbladesaresharp: ElwoodCuse: Yes, the pill, morning-after pill, and IUDs are "abortion-causing devices". Whatta maroon.

Seriously...if that's the angle they use, then half of the products on their shelves (various chemicals, glues, xacto blades, wiring, hand tools) are abortion-causing devices.

/doesn't shop at HL
//Petco of Hobby stores
///prefers specialty shops that actually know their farking products

COMPLETELY off-topic, but curious. What's the story with Petco? I actually prefer them to PetSmart but that has more to do with selection than anything else. Judging by the slashies I would guess you take issue with the knowledge level of their staff?


Yes actually. I'd like to talk to someone that has more than 6 months experience selling X-hobby tools and components while chewing gum or still learning how to count back change. It's annoying. And I've been in a lot of PetCos in several states and it seems company wide.
 
2012-12-28 06:27:10 PM
As usual, the smarmy, conceited, and belligerent schoolboy-atheist types are descending into circle-jerkery.

The interesting thing is that these fellows are generally still dependant upon mummy and daddy. There's nothing quite like the sense of entitlement that comes from extended adolescence.

You do not have a right to medical care. It's a privilege.
 
2012-12-28 06:27:20 PM

KiTTeNs_on_AciD: giftedmadness: Bontesla: KidneyStone: I have a big problem with the government making it a law that health insurance must pay for contraceptives. Ya wanna fark and not make babies? Cool, but don't make my health insurance costs go up because of it.

Uhm your health insurance costs Do go up because employers weren't forced to cover things like contraception. Who do you think eats those costs when an uninsured mother gives birth?

You're assuming that the only way people can access contraceptives is if their health insurance pays for it.....that's a stupid assumption.

You're assuming that someone making minimum wage can afford to pay for a visit to the OBGYN to get a prescription for contraceptives out-of pocket as well as pay for the actual drugs.... that> is the stupid assumption. Why should a minimum wage employee take on such a huge health related cost out-of-pocket when they supposedly have health insurance? Family planning is a requirement for adults by because of natural processes. Type 2 diabetes is not, yet we are not debating covering the costs of that entirely avoidable condition. So really, WTF is your problem anyway?


Hobby Lobby isn't against people visting the obgyn.....please cite me where they are against this.
 
2012-12-28 06:27:36 PM

garron: Absolutely. I don't agree with Sheehan politically or her motivations, but I do know that slavery would not have ended if people did not exercise their moral responsibility to do everything in their power to put an end to it. If that's what she believes, she needs to make her case. If she's right, people will listen.


I can't argue with honesty like that.

www.souvenirsaustralia.com
 
2012-12-28 06:28:40 PM

pxlboy:

It has nothing to do with its long-term viability, but everything to do with sticking it to the left at the expense of his employees.


Yeah that was kind of my point. any business owner making a rational decision for his business will go with offering the cover. Anyone saying they wont is basically a liar and an asshole.
 
2012-12-28 06:29:54 PM

The Why Not Guy: giftedmadness: let alone something that goes against my religion.

It's funny (both funny "ha ha" and funny "strange") to see the Conservatives who cheered our invasion of Iraq clutching their pearls over things that go against their religion.

War? Tens of thousands dead or injured? USA! USA! USA!
Birth control pills? Gasp!


I am against the Iraq and Afghan war.
 
2012-12-28 06:30:27 PM

garron: pxlboy: garron: This is a simple concept people. If the owners of Hobby Lobby believe that abortion is murder, they have a moral responsibility to not pay for said murders.

But - I know there is no way but the liberal way and liberals have the right to dictate to people what they must believe and how they must spend their money. The Russians and Chinese communists use forced labor camps, jail and sometimes murder to enforce their ideologies on people. You liberals should look into it. I hear its very effective.

They also believe that contraception (regardless of its use) is abortion. They also believe all sorts of other crazy sh*t.

So what. One of the great parts of our formerly "free" country was that an employee could choose where they work. If you don't like a company's policies - don't work there, don't shop there and talk bad about them all you want - but don't force them to believe your "crazy sh*t".


I'm not sure if you're being disingenuous or if you're really that dense.

When companies can just arbitrarily follow labor and insurance laws, the employees suffer. I know this goes against your Randroid programming, but such arbitrary legal adherence can put someone else's health at risk.

Take the HPV vaccine, for instance; the fundies were screaming as though there were dildos being handed out at a primary school. Their myopic view only saw it as tacit permission for girls to slut around, not that their future partners could be carriers and could give them cancer.

This is just one example. So yeah, keep your religion out of your employees' healthcare.
 
2012-12-28 06:30:43 PM

fanbladesaresharp: KiTTeNs_on_AciD: fanbladesaresharp: ElwoodCuse: Yes, the pill, morning-after pill, and IUDs are "abortion-causing devices". Whatta maroon.

Seriously...if that's the angle they use, then half of the products on their shelves (various chemicals, glues, xacto blades, wiring, hand tools) are abortion-causing devices.

/doesn't shop at HL
//Petco of Hobby stores
///prefers specialty shops that actually know their farking products

COMPLETELY off-topic, but curious. What's the story with Petco? I actually prefer them to PetSmart but that has more to do with selection than anything else. Judging by the slashies I would guess you take issue with the knowledge level of their staff?

Yes actually. I'd like to talk to someone that has more than 6 months experience selling X-hobby tools and components while chewing gum or still learning how to count back change. It's annoying. And I've been in a lot of PetCos in several states and it seems company wide.


See, you have to find a hobby shop with, "the guy." He'll usually be in his 50's or 60's, grey hair, likely bearded. He will be an expert on everything related to the store. Unfortunately, his co-workers will be dumber than average to make up for this. See: a Radio Shack where "the guy" can critique an amplifier schematic, but the cashier isn't sure if the store "has resistors or not."
 
2012-12-28 06:31:01 PM
Benefits, paid for by companies, were created back in the early days to entice you to work for them.
It is so ingrained now, we expect that every company provide the perks with little or no cost to the employee.
What would happen if the companies decided to drop all medical / dental / eye care / drug benefits and just paid the fine for Obamacare? We would all be in lines for state run clinics. Maybe if the company gave you an extra few bucks an hour, and it would be mandatory for you to purchase you own health insurance, the company could get out from under this.
I see nothing good for the future of healthcare in America
 
2012-12-28 06:31:58 PM
*future partners or husbands
 
2012-12-28 06:32:14 PM

giftedmadness: KiTTeNs_on_AciD: giftedmadness: Bontesla: KidneyStone: I have a big problem with the government making it a law that health insurance must pay for contraceptives. Ya wanna fark and not make babies? Cool, but don't make my health insurance costs go up because of it.

Uhm your health insurance costs Do go up because employers weren't forced to cover things like contraception. Who do you think eats those costs when an uninsured mother gives birth?

You're assuming that the only way people can access contraceptives is if their health insurance pays for it.....that's a stupid assumption.

You're assuming that someone making minimum wage can afford to pay for a visit to the OBGYN to get a prescription for contraceptives out-of pocket as well as pay for the actual drugs.... that> is the stupid assumption. Why should a minimum wage employee take on such a huge health related cost out-of-pocket when they supposedly have health insurance? Family planning is a requirement for adults by because of natural processes. Type 2 diabetes is not, yet we are not debating covering the costs of that entirely avoidable condition. So really, WTF is your problem anyway?

Hobby Lobby isn't against people visting the obgyn.....please cite me where they are against this.


OK, so it's a complete waste of time to attempt to communicate with you. Now I know better for next time.

Oral contraceptives require a prescription, and thus, doctor visits (typically the OBGYN). My point being that yes, there are cases in which an employee of hobby lobby would only be able to get access to contraceptives if their insurance covered it. So it was not a stupid assumption.

Why exactly would I provide a citation for a claim I never made?

>.
 
2012-12-28 06:33:29 PM

cig-mkr: Benefits, paid for by companies, were created back in the early days to entice you to work for them.
It is so ingrained now, we expect that every company provide the perks with little or no cost to the employee.
What would happen if the companies decided to drop all medical / dental / eye care / drug benefits and just paid the fine for Obamacare? We would all be in lines for state run clinics. Maybe if the company gave you an extra few bucks an hour, and it would be mandatory for you to purchase you own health insurance, the company could get out from under this.
I see nothing good for the future of healthcare in America


Having large organizations use their numbers as leverage to purchase bulk plans is much better for the overall health of the company when compared to individual (and more expensive) plans.
 
2012-12-28 06:34:21 PM
Sounds like he's chosen between his beliefs or the country he 'loves'.
.
Get out, then.
 
2012-12-28 06:35:07 PM

clyph: giftedmadness: Um...#1 violates the employers right to practice their religion....

Learn the difference between "practicing your religion" and "imposing your religion on other people".

Your right to practice YOUR religion ENDS where my right to practice MY religion BEGINS. That's the distinction you teabagging fundie assholes never seem to understand. Practicing your religion means "I must wear magic underwear". That's fine. What we have a problem with is when you say "My employees must wear magic underwear".

Practice your own farking religion to your heart's content. Wear funny hats and magic underwear, eat special food, abstain from sex and dancing, whatever you think makes your invisible sky wizard happy -- all perfectly fine with us. Just leave the rest of us out of it.

If you're right, we're going to hell anyway. That's actually fine with us, as long as our afterlife doesn't mean spending an eternity surrounded by self-righteous douchebags like you.


Umm...you really fail to understand the debate.  Hobby Lobby owners are not preventing anyone from using contraceptives......are they?  No......  They just don't want to pay for it.  Pretty simple, not that hard to understand.
 
2012-12-28 06:36:00 PM

Colin O'Scopy: Sounds like he's chosen between his beliefs or the country he 'loves'.
.
Get out, then.


And that which beliefs are strictly adhered to and which ones are not is entirely arbitrary. That, and they often seem to choose the ones that align the most with their sociopathic views.
 
2012-12-28 06:36:43 PM

giftedmadness: clyph: giftedmadness: Um...#1 violates the employers right to practice their religion....

Learn the difference between "practicing your religion" and "imposing your religion on other people".

Your right to practice YOUR religion ENDS where my right to practice MY religion BEGINS. That's the distinction you teabagging fundie assholes never seem to understand. Practicing your religion means "I must wear magic underwear". That's fine. What we have a problem with is when you say "My employees must wear magic underwear".

Practice your own farking religion to your heart's content. Wear funny hats and magic underwear, eat special food, abstain from sex and dancing, whatever you think makes your invisible sky wizard happy -- all perfectly fine with us. Just leave the rest of us out of it.

If you're right, we're going to hell anyway. That's actually fine with us, as long as our afterlife doesn't mean spending an eternity surrounded by self-righteous douchebags like you.

Umm...you really fail to understand the debate.  Hobby Lobby owners are not preventing anyone from using contraceptives......are they?  No......  They just don't want to pay for it.  Pretty simple, not that hard to understand.


But why stop there? Contraceptives are used for more than just birth control, smart guy.
 
2012-12-28 06:41:01 PM

giftedmadness: Bontesla: KidneyStone: I have a big problem with the government making it a law that health insurance must pay for contraceptives. Ya wanna fark and not make babies? Cool, but don't make my health insurance costs go up because of it.

Uhm your health insurance costs Do go up because employers weren't forced to cover things like contraception. Who do you think eats those costs when an uninsured mother gives birth?

You're assuming that the only way people can access contraceptives is if their health insurance pays for it.....that's a stupid assumption.


That wasn't part of my argument at all.

Stone said he didn't want his insurance to increase because he's suddenly covering contraceptive. I responded that he's already covering services rendered to uninsured mothers.
 
2012-12-28 06:45:14 PM

PanicMan: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: So now the State invades religion, and forces some people to pay for abortions against their religious beliefs. Seriously, how is this really different from forcing people to worship a particular religion?

Care to quote the section of the bible that says you can't pay for someone else's abortion?


Care to quote the section of the bible that says that magic mushrooms and licked frog skins are sacred sacraments? It's religious belief, douchbag. Doesn't matter whose religion, or what support it has or doesn't have.

/Go ahead, make some more assumptions about me.
 
2012-12-28 06:45:42 PM

giftedmadness: clyph: What was the name of the religious leader who commanded his followers to cure the sick?

Oh right, is was Jesus.

But fundies only read the part of the bible that has smiting and abominations... they skip over the parts that say "feed and clothe the poor", "cure the sick", and "love one another". And especially the parts that say to give away your riches and pray in private. They NEVER read those parts.

um....conservative Christians donate more to help the poor than anyone else.  Also, how does providing a morning after pill "cure" someone?


Oh my god you're trolling. I'm so sorry. I didn't realize that. I thought you were genuinely stupid.

Well done!
 
2012-12-28 06:46:09 PM

ProfessorOhki: giftedmadness: ProfessorOhki: giftedmadness: Bontesla: imtheonlylp: ok, here goes..

if you don't like it, then find another job...it's not mandatory that you believe what they do nor is it mandatory that you are employed there...

Your logic:
1). Law is created to protect employees.
2). Employer violates law.
3). Punish employee.

Um...#1 violates the employers right to practice their religion....

...and forcing the employee to adhere to their employer's religion doesn't interfere with their right to not be subject to their employer's religion? Hobby Lobby's owners are more than free to not use contraception - they don't get to make the choice for their employees. Well, I suppose unless sex and/or procreation are part of their duties as employees, but I'm thinking it isn't that sort of place.

They aren't PREVENTING them from using contraception.  If one of their employees uses a contraceptive that the employee pays for herself, she will not be fired.  No freedom is abridged.

You're not getting it. It has nothing to do with it being contraception or insurance. The employer should not be applying their religion to their employees in any way, shape, or form.


They aren't imposing any religion on their employees.  The employee is free to do what he chooses with his own money.  Before Obamacare, there wasn't a mandate to provide an employee with any health benefits.  The employer had the right to offer whatever plan they saw fit to the employee.
 
2012-12-28 06:49:19 PM

giftedmadness: I am against the Iraq and Afghan war.


Yeah, now you are.
 
2012-12-28 06:50:42 PM

KiTTeNs_on_AciD: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: So now the State invades religion, and forces some people to pay for abortions against their religious beliefs. Seriously, how is this really different from forcing people to worship a particular religion?

Because telling someone the health care they provide to employees must cover standard medications is not the same as forcing them to cease or begin any kind of worship to anyone. If you had to seriously ask that you should immediately stop sharing your opinions on anything.


Ah ah ahhh! No changing context, please. The issue is whether the State has the right to force someone who has a set of religious beliefs to act contrary to those beliefs.

Questions:

If I am a devout Black Muslim, who does charity work for destitute Blacks, does the State have the right to force me to also do charity work for destitute whites?

If I am a principled Atheist who makes charitable contributions to causes that promote Atheism, does the State have the right to force me to also make contributions to devout Catholic or Muslim causes?

Be honest now....
 
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