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(NewsOK)   Hobby Lobby to continue hobby of lobbying Appeals Court to allow their other hobby of lobbing their beliefs on their employees private lobby hobbies   (newsok.com) divider line 526
    More: Followup, sidelines, appeals court  
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7715 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Dec 2012 at 4:02 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-28 04:43:18 PM  
Nabb1 [TotalFark]

Maybe he has worthless employees who spend too much time on FARK instead of working hard and increasing productivity.


If I ever work there I'm sure I'll be considered one of them. I'm happy with the insurance the payroll company I work for provides.
 
2012-12-28 04:44:09 PM  

Nabb1: I'd think gays would be ambivalent about birth control since they really don't need it to prevent pregnancy.


Really?

As Sandra "Slut" Fluke testified, many women need birth control pills for medical reasons that have nothing to do with having sex or preventing pregnancy. There's also a big benefit to gay men and lesbians in using contraceptives such as condoms or dental dams. They prevent the spread of STDs and HIV, even among same-sex couples who aren't worried about pregnancy.
 
2012-12-28 04:44:22 PM  

KidneyStone: I have a big problem with the government making it a law that health insurance must pay for contraceptives. Ya wanna fark and not make babies? Cool, but don't make my health insurance costs go up because of it.


Oh GREAT Idea! No one should have to pay any tax to support anything they don't agree with! Man, I am going to save a TON this year!
 
2012-12-28 04:44:27 PM  

cwolf20: On an unrelated note.

Owner with 6 employees figured up the math on providing insurance for the first time to his employees.

It'll be cheaper for him to take a 350 dollar hit per employee including himself and wife. Which wouldn't be an issue except she's never worked there. But the state government told him she always has. Meanwhile the employees will go forth and get Obama care.


I believe the only part of this story that isn't completely made up is the word "with".
 
2012-12-28 04:44:47 PM  

ghare: ProfessorOhki: Bontesla: Abe Vigoda's Ghost: ghare: I just spent $40 at Sam Flax instead of Hobby Lobby because of this. Tried to email them a pic of my receipt, but for some reason there doesn't appear o be a link to email them with comments on their website.

That 40 bucks is going to push them right over the edge.

Boycotting them is kind of counter productive. If enough people did that (they won't), it would have more of a negative impact on the employees, then it would the company. Sales are down, you lay off people.

That's assuming you've quit your hobby instead of taking your business elsewhere. Why would you quit your hobby?

Wal*Martization. I don't know exactly how big these guys are as a chain, but I could imagine a scenario where the big guy rolls into town, puts the small hobby shop(s) out of business and becomes the only game within 50 mi.

There's this thing called "the intarwebs." You can order stuff from it. I rarely have an emergency need to have art supplies RIGHT NOW.


Look at what I was replying to; I was referring to the [regional] loss of jobs and sales, not some unavailability of hobby supplies.
 
2012-12-28 04:45:03 PM  

vpb: It's kind of a silly argument. Health care is part of the compensation package. You might as well argue that you should be able to pay with scrip so you can make sure that employees don't buy rubbers with money the company pays them.


Even sillier -- prescription birth control tends to cost less than most people's prescription drug copay.
 
2012-12-28 04:45:10 PM  

KidneyStone: I have a big problem with the government making it a law that health insurance must pay for contraceptives. Ya wanna fark and not make babies? Cool, but don't make my health insurance costs go up because of it.


Contraceptives are cheaper then babies
 
2012-12-28 04:45:32 PM  

Bonzo_1116: If they want to operate as a business, then they need to follow the rules for businesses not a private membership church.


This is the root of the problem right here. The first amendment protects a religion's right to practice religion. Things get stickier when religion attempts to do more than just practice religion. Who owns it and who runs it should be irrelevant. All businesses should be run the same and should follow the same rules.
 
2012-12-28 04:45:46 PM  

Bontesla: Great Janitor: I really can't hate them for saying that they don't want to offer coverage that goes against their beliefs. They aren't saying that they don't want their female employees not to be on the pill or whatever, just that they don't want to offer those programs. If their employees don't like it, they can find work else where. It shouldn't be the government's position to tell businesses exactly what benefits they have to offer, what kind of healthcare packages they have to provide.

Why should your employer's religious preferences be imposed on the standard of insurance you can receive?

Other than offering insurance - the business has no business in my medical business.


Because they are paying for it.
 
2012-12-28 04:45:53 PM  
www.containsmoderateperil.com
Knows a thing or two about hobbies.
 
2012-12-28 04:46:44 PM  

ProfessorOhki: ghare: ProfessorOhki: Bontesla: Abe Vigoda's Ghost: ghare: I just spent $40 at Sam Flax instead of Hobby Lobby because of this. Tried to email them a pic of my receipt, but for some reason there doesn't appear o be a link to email them with comments on their website.

That 40 bucks is going to push them right over the edge.

Boycotting them is kind of counter productive. If enough people did that (they won't), it would have more of a negative impact on the employees, then it would the company. Sales are down, you lay off people.

That's assuming you've quit your hobby instead of taking your business elsewhere. Why would you quit your hobby?

Wal*Martization. I don't know exactly how big these guys are as a chain, but I could imagine a scenario where the big guy rolls into town, puts the small hobby shop(s) out of business and becomes the only game within 50 mi.

There's this thing called "the intarwebs." You can order stuff from it. I rarely have an emergency need to have art supplies RIGHT NOW.

Look at what I was replying to; I was referring to the [regional] loss of jobs and sales, not some unavailability of hobby supplies.


Hobby Lobby doesn't make a hobby of opening stores in towns of 2000. In regions where Hobby Lobby operates, big box stores do not create jobs. Rather, they cannibalize existing jobs from existing businesses. Boycotting Hobby Lobby will not affect net employment in a region, at all.
 
2012-12-28 04:46:49 PM  

Di Atribe: My religion dictates that I sleep until 10am every morning.


They make you get up that early? Shiat, do you have to whip yourself like in that movie, too?
 
2012-12-28 04:46:55 PM  
Thanks for letting us know where you stand on this, Hobby Lobby.

In the court of my opinion, you've been found guilty trying to force your religious beliefs on others and therefore are no longer a consideration when I need anything you sell. I will buy my supplies from someone else.
 
2012-12-28 04:47:28 PM  

KidneyStone: I have a big problem with the government making it a law that health insurance must pay for contraceptives. Ya wanna fark and not make babies? Cool, but don't make my health insurance costs go up because of it.


Uhm your health insurance costs Do go up because employers weren't forced to cover things like contraception. Who do you think eats those costs when an uninsured mother gives birth?
 
2012-12-28 04:47:29 PM  

Great Janitor: Bontesla: Great Janitor: I really can't hate them for saying that they don't want to offer coverage that goes against their beliefs. They aren't saying that they don't want their female employees not to be on the pill or whatever, just that they don't want to offer those programs. If their employees don't like it, they can find work else where. It shouldn't be the government's position to tell businesses exactly what benefits they have to offer, what kind of healthcare packages they have to provide.

Why should your employer's religious preferences be imposed on the standard of insurance you can receive?

Other than offering insurance - the business has no business in my medical business.

Because they are paying for it.


Well, then, they obviously have the right to restrict what employees do with their paychecks too.
 
2012-12-28 04:47:40 PM  

KiTTeNs_on_AciD: Nabb1: KiTTeNs_on_AciD: This will end well for them. Everyone knows the gays just abhor arts & crafts. No way this could possibly hurt their business more than covering birth control.

I'd think gays would be ambivalent about birth control since they really don't need it to prevent pregnancy.

Ambivalent about birth control maybe, not about evangelicals using religion as an excuse to involve themselves in the private lives of their employees. As it turns out, they have personal experience dealing with similar situations and are capable of empathy.


Perhaps that joke was a bit too dry to be effective.
 
2012-12-28 04:47:55 PM  
As usual, fundies get to pick and choose which parts of the Bible are the literal words of God which may not ever be disobeyed and which are just filler between all the begatting and stoning of adulterous whores.

Romans 13:1-14 (New International Version)

13 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God's servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
Seems pretty clear to me. But then, I tend to take these sorts of things literally.
 
2012-12-28 04:48:56 PM  
Eh, if the employees have a problem with this, they should quit. It's just that simple.
 
2012-12-28 04:49:14 PM  

The Why Not Guy: Nabb1: I'd think gays would be ambivalent about birth control since they really don't need it to prevent pregnancy.

Really?

As Sandra "Slut" Fluke testified, many women need birth control pills for medical reasons that have nothing to do with having sex or preventing pregnancy. There's also a big benefit to gay men and lesbians in using contraceptives such as condoms or dental dams. They prevent the spread of STDs and HIV, even among same-sex couples who aren't worried about pregnancy.


Failed attempt at dry humor.  Disregard.
 
2012-12-28 04:49:16 PM  
To oppose abortions (and the welfare system in general) as much as they do, it always surprised me how adamant they also are against contraceptives.

Just like the Republicans they voted for, 'compromise' must no longer be a part of their vocabulary.
 
2012-12-28 04:49:19 PM  

the_end_is_rear: KidneyStone: I have a big problem with the government making it a law that health insurance must pay for contraceptives. Ya wanna fark and not make babies? Cool, but don't make my health insurance costs go up because of it.

Contraceptives are cheaper then babies


Personal responsibility is free

/and may as well be a unicorn these days
 
2012-12-28 04:49:21 PM  
What was the name of the religious leader who commanded his followers to cure the sick?

Oh right, is was Jesus.

But fundies only read the part of the bible that has smiting and abominations... they skip over the parts that say "feed and clothe the poor", "cure the sick", and "love one another". And especially the parts that say to give away your riches and pray in private. They NEVER read those parts.
 
2012-12-28 04:49:41 PM  

NewWorldDan: Eh, if the employees have a problem with this, they should quit. It's just that simple.


Eh, if the employer has a problem with following federal laws regarding businesses, they should just close up shop. It's that simple.
 
2012-12-28 04:50:02 PM  

ZeroCorpse: The Greens should shove some Chic-Fil-A up their asses and STFU.

Honestly, I'm sick of these fundies who own corporations thinking they can act like their business is a branch of their church. It's not, and your employees are not your congregation.

Honestly, screw these people.


It's their business, they should be allowed to run it how they want. It was formed from their own biblical beliefs. If they choose to pay the fines instead of complying with the law, good on them.
 
2012-12-28 04:50:14 PM  

vernonFL: Do you see that? Its a modern reflector on an Amish buggy. The Amish did not want to put modern reflectors on their buggies, but the law says they have to.


Only if they use the same roads that everyone else does. On private land, they don't have to.
 
2012-12-28 04:50:45 PM  
I

poot_rootbeer: cwolf20


If it is false. Man what was I not drinking on December 27, 2012 night at a holiday inn business seminar
 
2012-12-28 04:50:49 PM  

Romeo_Santana: What's funny is how the more liberal among us think this doesn't affect them. cmb53208: What makes fundies such awful pieces of shiat?

Is that what CNN and John Stewart told you to think?


I do my own thinking asswipe. Now tell me what fundies are good for since they're anti-freedom, anti-choice, anti-knowledge, and anti-fun? These people are scum.
 
2012-12-28 04:50:54 PM  

Bontesla: KidneyStone: I have a big problem with the government making it a law that health insurance must pay for contraceptives. Ya wanna fark and not make babies? Cool, but don't make my health insurance costs go up because of it.

Uhm your health insurance costs Do go up because employers weren't forced to cover things like contraception. Who do you think eats those costs when an uninsured mother gives birth?


Uhm, the doctor/hospital, not the insurance company.
 
2012-12-28 04:51:28 PM  
HOTY winner!
 
2012-12-28 04:51:46 PM  

imtheonlylp: Bontesla: imtheonlylp: ok, here goes..

if you don't like it, then find another job...it's not mandatory that you believe what they do nor is it mandatory that you are employed there...

Your logic:
1). Law is created to protect employees.
2). Employer violates law.
3). Punish employee.

don't really think they're "punishing" anyone...employees are welcome to get their own insurance wherever they please...

My logic:
1) You don't agree with a business or their ethics or even their stance on any issue.
2) Don't work there and don't shop there.
3) Problem solved.


That's not actual logic. Your conclusion isn't a deduction made from your premises. It's not even inductive logic.

And if you don't think that the loss of work isn't a punishment for employees at the Hobby Lobby then you might just pass as a Romney son.
 
2012-12-28 04:52:16 PM  

ghare: ProfessorOhki: ghare: ProfessorOhki: Bontesla: Abe Vigoda's Ghost: ghare: I just spent $40 at Sam Flax instead of Hobby Lobby because of this. Tried to email them a pic of my receipt, but for some reason there doesn't appear o be a link to email them with comments on their website.

That 40 bucks is going to push them right over the edge.

Boycotting them is kind of counter productive. If enough people did that (they won't), it would have more of a negative impact on the employees, then it would the company. Sales are down, you lay off people.

That's assuming you've quit your hobby instead of taking your business elsewhere. Why would you quit your hobby?

Wal*Martization. I don't know exactly how big these guys are as a chain, but I could imagine a scenario where the big guy rolls into town, puts the small hobby shop(s) out of business and becomes the only game within 50 mi.

There's this thing called "the intarwebs." You can order stuff from it. I rarely have an emergency need to have art supplies RIGHT NOW.

Look at what I was replying to; I was referring to the [regional] loss of jobs and sales, not some unavailability of hobby supplies.

Hobby Lobby doesn't make a hobby of opening stores in towns of 2000. In regions where Hobby Lobby operates, big box stores do not create jobs. Rather, they cannibalize existing jobs from existing businesses. Boycotting Hobby Lobby will not affect net employment in a region, at all.


Creating jobs or not is irrelevant to the question. It's what would happen to those employees if they left that is the question. If the businesses they drew them from were cannibalized, you would have people and no matching job openings. Also, if an overall decrease in local spending, local sales tax and all that would have any economic impact. I really doubt it would be an issue, but that's what we were examining.
 
2012-12-28 04:53:31 PM  

KidneyStone: the_end_is_rear: KidneyStone: I have a big problem with the government making it a law that health insurance must pay for contraceptives. Ya wanna fark and not make babies? Cool, but don't make my health insurance costs go up because of it.

Contraceptives are cheaper then babies

Personal responsibility is free

/and may as well be a unicorn these days


?? People want contraceptives to prevent unwanted pregnancies, they try to go to their doctor to get them (acting responsibly) but find their EMPLOYER has interfered with them trying to act responsibly, and you think this is good?

Ahh, the Modern Republican: willfully, insistently stupid, and proud of it.
 
2012-12-28 04:54:13 PM  

NewWorldDan: Eh, if the employees have a problem with this, they should quit. It's just that simple.


It's law, though. Not opinion.

They can voice their opinion against the law. They can lobby against the law. They can vote for representatives who promise to get rid of the law. But they can't unilaterally consider themselves exempt from the law , without serious consequences.
 
2012-12-28 04:54:21 PM  

Great Janitor: cwolf20: On an unrelated note.

Owner with 6 employees figured up the math on providing insurance for the first time to his employees.

It'll be cheaper for him to take a 350 dollar hit per employee including himself and wife. Which wouldn't be an issue except she's never worked there. But the state government told him she always has. Meanwhile the employees will go forth and get Obama care.

I sell health insurance. Took a few classes on Obamacare. The company I work for works with five different health insurance companies. Some are well known, others aren't. When it comes to health insurance, they pretty much all cost about the same. I offer my clients two health insurance packages. The Obamacare package and the non-Obamacare package. I also explain "For a married couple, the Obamacare package is going to run you about $8,000/year. The non-Obamacare package is half that. But you also have to pay the fine for not having it. If you rarely go to the doctor and are generally healthy, take the non-Obamacare package, it is the cheaper way to go."

Of course, I we've already been told that we're going to take a cut in commissions due Health Care reform and that we'd be better off focusing more on the Life Insurance for 2013.


You sell insurance and yet have no idea what Obamacare is, or how underwriting works. You're a hoot.
 
2012-12-28 04:55:43 PM  
I an curious. Do these companies that are complaining about health insurance covering birth control have special exemptions for the pill in their current policy, or do they just not provide health insurance to their employees?
 
2012-12-28 04:55:50 PM  

Great Janitor: Bontesla: Great Janitor: I really can't hate them for saying that they don't want to offer coverage that goes against their beliefs. They aren't saying that they don't want their female employees not to be on the pill or whatever, just that they don't want to offer those programs. If their employees don't like it, they can find work else where. It shouldn't be the government's position to tell businesses exactly what benefits they have to offer, what kind of healthcare packages they have to provide.

Why should your employer's religious preferences be imposed on the standard of insurance you can receive?

Other than offering insurance - the business has no business in my medical business.

Because they are paying for it.


As they're paying wages. It's part of your compensation. Your employer cannot tell you how to use your compensation.
 
2012-12-28 04:57:03 PM  

ghare: Great Janitor: Bontesla: Great Janitor: I really can't hate them for saying that they don't want to offer coverage that goes against their beliefs. They aren't saying that they don't want their female employees not to be on the pill or whatever, just that they don't want to offer those programs. If their employees don't like it, they can find work else where. It shouldn't be the government's position to tell businesses exactly what benefits they have to offer, what kind of healthcare packages they have to provide.

Why should your employer's religious preferences be imposed on the standard of insurance you can receive?

Other than offering insurance - the business has no business in my medical business.

Because they are paying for it.

Well, then, they obviously have the right to restrict what employees do with their paychecks too.


Wrong. Employers have no rights to tell employees what to do with the paychecks. Since that's payment for time spent making the company money. The part about health insurance is different because it's not payment for services.
 
2012-12-28 04:57:11 PM  

Great Janitor: The non-Obamacare package is half that. But you also have to pay the fine for not having it. If you rarely go to the doctor and are generally healthy, take the non-Obamacare package, it is the cheaper way to go."


The implication there seems to be that the non-Obamacare package doesn't do much.
 
2012-12-28 04:57:34 PM  

Beavz0r: To oppose abortions (and the welfare system in general) as much as they do, it always surprised me how adamant they also are against contraceptives.

Just like the Republicans they voted for, 'compromise' must no longer be a part of their vocabulary.


They are against sex in just about any form except between a man and a woman who are together married and only for the purpose of procreation.
 
2012-12-28 04:58:01 PM  

ProfessorOhki: ghare: ProfessorOhki: ghare: ProfessorOhki: Bontesla: Abe Vigoda's Ghost: ghare: I just spent $40 at Sam Flax instead of Hobby Lobby because of this. Tried to email them a pic of my receipt, but for some reason there doesn't appear o be a link to email them with comments on their website.

That 40 bucks is going to push them right over the edge.

Boycotting them is kind of counter productive. If enough people did that (they won't), it would have more of a negative impact on the employees, then it would the company. Sales are down, you lay off people.

That's assuming you've quit your hobby instead of taking your business elsewhere. Why would you quit your hobby?

Wal*Martization. I don't know exactly how big these guys are as a chain, but I could imagine a scenario where the big guy rolls into town, puts the small hobby shop(s) out of business and becomes the only game within 50 mi.

There's this thing called "the intarwebs." You can order stuff from it. I rarely have an emergency need to have art supplies RIGHT NOW.

Look at what I was replying to; I was referring to the [regional] loss of jobs and sales, not some unavailability of hobby supplies.

Hobby Lobby doesn't make a hobby of opening stores in towns of 2000. In regions where Hobby Lobby operates, big box stores do not create jobs. Rather, they cannibalize existing jobs from existing businesses. Boycotting Hobby Lobby will not affect net employment in a region, at all.

Creating jobs or not is irrelevant to the question. It's what would happen to those employees if they left that is the question. If the businesses they drew them from were cannibalized, you would have people and no matching job openings. Also, if an overall decrease in local spending, local sales tax and all that would have any economic impact. I really doubt it would be an issue, but that's what we were examining.


If they leave the position, they will find another job, one would assume. If Hobby Lobby closes due to a drop in sales, due to them being perceived by the public as douchebags, then another art store will move in to take their place, and they will hire basically the same number of employees as Hobby Lobby did.
 
2012-12-28 04:58:28 PM  

Internet Meme Rogers: Great Janitor: cwolf20: On an unrelated note.

Owner with 6 employees figured up the math on providing insurance for the first time to his employees.

It'll be cheaper for him to take a 350 dollar hit per employee including himself and wife. Which wouldn't be an issue except she's never worked there. But the state government told him she always has. Meanwhile the employees will go forth and get Obama care.

I sell health insurance. Took a few classes on Obamacare. The company I work for works with five different health insurance companies. Some are well known, others aren't. When it comes to health insurance, they pretty much all cost about the same. I offer my clients two health insurance packages. The Obamacare package and the non-Obamacare package. I also explain "For a married couple, the Obamacare package is going to run you about $8,000/year. The non-Obamacare package is half that. But you also have to pay the fine for not having it. If you rarely go to the doctor and are generally healthy, take the non-Obamacare package, it is the cheaper way to go."

Of course, I we've already been told that we're going to take a cut in commissions due Health Care reform and that we'd be better off focusing more on the Life Insurance for 2013.

You sell insurance and yet have no idea what Obamacare is, or how underwriting works. You're a hoot.


Okay, tell me the error
 
2012-12-28 04:58:30 PM  

NewWorldDan: Eh, if the employees have a problem with this, they should quit. It's just that simple.


If employers have a problem following constituonal law then they should be prevented from operating until they can operate their business in accordance with our laws.
It's just that simple.
 
2012-12-28 04:58:35 PM  

ghare: KidneyStone: the_end_is_rear: KidneyStone: I have a big problem with the government making it a law that health insurance must pay for contraceptives. Ya wanna fark and not make babies? Cool, but don't make my health insurance costs go up because of it.

Contraceptives are cheaper then babies

Personal responsibility is free

/and may as well be a unicorn these days

?? People want contraceptives to prevent unwanted pregnancies, they try to go to their doctor to get them (acting responsibly) but find their EMPLOYER has interfered with them trying to act responsibly, and you think this is good?

Ahh, the Modern Republican: willfully, insistently stupid, and proud of it.


Employer interfered?

What, they stopped Sally from going out and buying stuff?

Employers should not be obligated to provide any health care. What is next, employers have to provide housing?
 
2012-12-28 04:58:43 PM  
So now the State invades religion, and forces some people to pay for abortions against their religious beliefs. Seriously, how is this really different from forcing people to worship a particular religion?
 
2012-12-28 04:59:30 PM  

NewWorldDan: Eh, if the employees have a problem with this, they should quit. It's just that simple.


So I'm going to have to grill all my future employers on their religious beliefs to make sure their healthcare plan isn't filled with stupid? That will be fun.
 
2012-12-28 04:59:46 PM  

clyph: What was the name of the religious leader who commanded his followers to cure the sick?

Oh right, is was Jesus.


Are you saying that being pregnant is a sickness?

/the only cure is more cowbell.
 
2012-12-28 04:59:59 PM  
The Japanese live much longer than we do and have a much better health care system. Need to see a doctor? Walk into any doctor's office, pay a small fee. No insurance, no employer hassles, nothing.
 
2012-12-28 05:00:09 PM  

ThrobblefootSpectre: They can voice their opinion against the law. They can lobby against the law. They can vote for representatives who promise to get rid of the law. But they can't unilaterally consider themselves exempt from the law , without serious consequences.


I seriously hope the DOJ sticks it to Hobby Lobby if they do. A large part of me thinks they won't though, so as not to rile up the right wing. But I seriously hope they stick it to Hobby Lobby, to make an example out of them.
 
2012-12-28 05:00:38 PM  

WhoopAssWayne: I have a feeling the next republican president will make G W Bush look like Mahatma Gandhi


What, long dead? W isn't that old. Seems you don't have faith that the party can expect any electoral success in the next 20-30 years?
 
2012-12-28 05:00:43 PM  

pciszek: Great Janitor: The non-Obamacare package is half that. But you also have to pay the fine for not having it. If you rarely go to the doctor and are generally healthy, take the non-Obamacare package, it is the cheaper way to go."

The implication there seems to be that the non-Obamacare package doesn't do much.


higher deductibles, larger co-pays, not as much is covered, more out of pocket if you get hurt or sick.
 
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