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(Fox News)   Three shot, one injured inside New Jersey Police station. If only the police had been armed, this would never have happened   (foxnews.com ) divider line
    More: News, New Jersey, police stations, stairwell  
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12593 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Dec 2012 at 9:04 AM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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KIA
2012-12-28 10:11:04 AM  

Chinchillazilla: The thing is, everyone agrees we should work to end heart disease, diabetes, influenza, septicemia, cirrhosis, and hypertension. We throw money and research at those things.


Close, but a slight miss. After we have already thrown a lot of money and research at these things they are still far higher than firearms homicides.

You also imply that money and research has not been spent on firearms laws and controls. We have some 20,000 firearms laws on the books. Even in the Newtown situation, the shooter tried to buy firearms at three different dealers and was rejected all three times. Our firearms laws are extensive and work when enforced. The rate of firearm homicides at 11,493 with 313 million residents in the US = 0.003671 percent. That's right. Three one-thousandths of one percent of people in the US died from firearms homicides.

Now when you consider that up to 90% of those may have been committed by people with prior criminal records, people who simply are not law-abiding folks, and that it is already illegal for felons to possess guns, you have to ask: is there any legislation short of banning a natural and constitutional right for the law-abiding citizens which can reduce the rate below three one-thousandths of one percent?

So far, nobody has come up with anything realistic in response to that core question.
 
2012-12-28 10:11:49 AM  

SirDigbyChickenCaesar: People_are_Idiots: Uhm, to the cop that had his gun stolen: They make special holsters now to prevent that from happening.

To the cops that attended to him un-cuffed: Next time, try cuffing him until the weapons are secured.

To the cops that got shot: I'm glad it wasn't worse. Hope the cop with the belly wound makes it through to full duty.

To the cops that shot and killed the idiot: Good call. Glad you came out without any fatalities (well, save for the dead idiot).

We just went to those new double retention holsters, they are nice but if someone knows how they work they could still get your gun. They say police station not jail..here those are two different places so this guy could have been coming to turn himself in on the DV warrant, that happens alot. So he might not even have been in cuffs yet if so, definitely not in the front. I don't know of anyone, outside of the jail, that would cuff in the front.


The nice thing about those though it takes a little bit more thought to get to the gun, something this guy probably didn't have. As far as having him cuffed or not, my thought was in this line: "Police said a suspect was under arrest in connection with a domestic violence-related incident." Usually if you're under arrest like that from what I've seen, you're already in cuffs (not arguing with you mind you). Most towns I know of have their police station in the jail, so it isn't unusual to have police bringing the perp to the station.


My thought is this all happened when they went to cuff him. Over powered one officer, got his gun, two responded to help. He was gut shot fighting for the gun.

my .02...


BTW, my hat's off to you. :)
 
2012-12-28 10:12:02 AM  

Kiriyama9000: Are you all retarded?

"Police said a suspect was under arrest in connection with a domestic violence-related incident when a struggle with officers ensued at around 5:30 a.m. The suspect "obtained a firearm" during the struggle, police sources said. Officers then returned fire, killing the unidentified suspect."

The jerk-off probably managed to yank one of the officers service weapons from a holster.
The cops responded with deadly force and killed the mother farker.
Thankfully there were only injuries to the police and only some asshat is dead.

This is how things are supposed to work.


Don't most police holsters have safeties that require at least two actions to un-holster the weapon?
 
2012-12-28 10:12:42 AM  

Oysterman: That does it. We need to give police officers guns. Then everyone would be too scared to shoot them.


Yeah. It's not like the armed police officers shot and killed the bad guy before he could hurt anyone else. Oh...wait...
 
2012-12-28 10:13:03 AM  

Shahab: I hate to be this guy but "MyFoxPhilly.com reports that the suspected shooter has been shot and killed."

So he only managed to shoot a couple people before being taken out. Versus 10 times that number in Newton. I don't understand why people act like armed police officers in school is some outrageous thing, we had an armed police officer on campus sometimes at my high school, which was a nice high school in a nice area. That guy from meet the press apparantly has his kids in a school with a security staff of 11.

I think it doesn't fit gun control advocate's message so they try and dismiss it out of hand. I don't own any guns, nor own stock in companies that make them, this isn't an agenda talking, just common sense.


He may have been killed but I'll bet he is still being shot. Cops are lined up, walking past the corpse and letting off a couple rounds. It could go on for hours.
 
2012-12-28 10:13:33 AM  
Useful gun control solutions: booker
 
2012-12-28 10:14:07 AM  

Bontesla: The Muthaship: Bontesla: So maybe the shooter only kills 20 instead of 27? That's not a significant improvement.

Really?

Is 20 your definition of a significant improvement? You aim low.


Not that I think that having armed guards in every school is a good thing... but isn't this the exact argument used to limit magazine size? That yes people will still die but it will be less somehow with smaller magazines?
 
2012-12-28 10:14:11 AM  

bulldg4life: Civil_War2_Time: Nice one. Self-pwned much?

Not really, because it is a stupid argument.

In response to recent shootings, no reasonable person is going to advocate removing guns from police officers. I surely don't see it as a solution and the nitwit in this thread advocating it seems to be the only one even coming close to making the statement.

However, there are countless people blindly making a comment about how having guns stopped the shooter after three wounds...the inverse of that would be no guns in the station causing no wounds at all.

It is a stupid simplistic argument.


Yes, it IS a stupid simplistic argument.

BUT, this is where the concealed vs. open-view carry situation comes into play.

If the tackled cop had his gun in a holster around his ankle (like my dad's .45 mini), there would likely have been but one person shot...the perp. Although the perp wouldn't have tackled someone trying to get his gun if he didn't know if he even had one on-person (and in a police station).

It's time for cops to stop showing-off their weapons, because they don't need to. Conceal it, and there will be next to no shootings of cops with their own guns...IMO.
 
2012-12-28 10:14:13 AM  
After a few years, I think I finally have Fark figured out..

-Cops are hated
-Guns are bad
-Unions are great
-The U.S. sucks...but Obama is great
-The govt. sucks..but it's ok now because of Obama
-Republicans are evil and responsible for everything from killing old people, to killing the arts and global warming
-Religion is bad, and if you are a Christian especially, you are stupid and deserve scorn and hatred..but Obama being a Christian and mentioning God is a-ok
-Cars are bad..unless they're electric
-The rich are evil
-Obama biatches!


I miss anything?
 
2012-12-28 10:14:24 AM  

tarheel07: Kiriyama9000: Are you all retarded?

"Police said a suspect was under arrest in connection with a domestic violence-related incident when a struggle with officers ensued at around 5:30 a.m. The suspect "obtained a firearm" during the struggle, police sources said. Officers then returned fire, killing the unidentified suspect."

The jerk-off probably managed to yank one of the officers service weapons from a holster.
The cops responded with deadly force and killed the mother farker.
Thankfully there were only injuries to the police and only some asshat is dead.

This is how things are supposed to work.

Don't most police holsters have safeties that require at least two actions to un-holster the weapon?


Some do. Some even require three. Unfortunately, some law enforcement holsters, and particularly those used by plainclothes officers generally do not.
 
2012-12-28 10:15:50 AM  

Audaeus: If only someone could explain why only 3 people were shot... hmm, it's a little hard....


you have the strangest boner right now because of the possibility of more injuries?
 
2012-12-28 10:16:21 AM  

Dancin_In_Anson: Infernalist: So, if wasn't unsecured, how did he manage to get it?

You're right. It must have just been laying there on the table right next to him.


Probably dressed all provocatively... practically begging to be used. If that slutty gun had just kept itself covered up none of this would have happened.
 
2012-12-28 10:16:56 AM  
How long before the TSA's presence is expanded beyond airports?
 
2012-12-28 10:17:22 AM  

Scerpes: Oysterman: That does it. We need to give police officers guns. Then everyone would be too scared to shoot them.

Yeah. It's not like the armed police officers shot and killed the bad guy before he could hurt anyone else. Oh...wait...


But I was told they pick their targets because they have "gun-free" signs outside. Is that not the case?
 
KIA
2012-12-28 10:17:44 AM  

publikenemy: After a few years, I think I finally have Fark figured out..

-Cops are hated
-Guns are bad
-Unions are great
-The U.S. sucks...but Obama is great
-The govt. sucks..but it's ok now because of Obama
-Republicans are evil and responsible for everything from killing old people, to killing the arts and global warming
-Religion is bad, and if you are a Christian especially, you are stupid and deserve scorn and hatred..but Obama being a Christian and mentioning God is a-ok
-Cars are bad..unless they're electric
-The rich are evil
-Obama biatches!


I miss anything?


You could have just summarized: Basement-dwelling dope-smoking pseudo-philosophy rules.

That and we all miss teh bewbies. Anyone else remember massive mammary threads? Weiners too, let's be fair. I suppose Tumblr kind of killed all of that. Oh, well. Maybe we can get a beer thread again.
 
2012-12-28 10:17:47 AM  

socodog: Many police stations have lock boxes at the vestibule of the in-booking area where police lock their weapon before escorting a subject in. I guess this one did not.


I thought that this is how most police stations operated also to keep things like this from happening. With the exception of a few armed officers that don't handle suspects and are there for security.
 
2012-12-28 10:18:06 AM  

Benjamin Orr: Probably dressed all provocatively... practically begging to be used. If that slutty gun had just kept itself covered up none of this would have happened


I know, right?
 
2012-12-28 10:18:58 AM  

Civil_War2_Time: It's time for cops to stop showing-off their weapons, because they don't need to. Conceal it, and there will be next to no shootings of cops with their own guns...IMO.


I don't know if that is true...I mean, a cop on patrol and the only option is an ankle holster? Not sure if that is a solution.

I would say there was obviously a breakdown in securing of weapons and/or the criminal, but I'm not sure if concealed carry for all cops makes sense.
 
2012-12-28 10:19:07 AM  

Civil_War2_Time: Yes, it IS a stupid simplistic argument.

BUT, this is where the concealed vs. open-view carry situation comes into play.

If the tackled cop had his gun in a holster around his ankle (like my dad's .45 mini), there would likely have been but one person shot...the perp. Although the perp wouldn't have tackled someone trying to get his gun if he didn't know if he even had one on-person (and in a police station).

It's time for cops to stop showing-off their weapons, because they don't need to. Conceal it, and there will be next to no shootings of cops with their own guns...IMO.


1. Ankle holsters are horrendous for a primary weapon.

2. I'm sure you've never taken off your jacket in your office.
 
2012-12-28 10:19:28 AM  

Benjamin Orr: Bontesla: The Muthaship: Bontesla: So maybe the shooter only kills 20 instead of 27? That's not a significant improvement.

Really?

Is 20 your definition of a significant improvement? You aim low.

Not that I think that having armed guards in every school is a good thing... but isn't this the exact argument used to limit magazine size? That yes people will still die but it will be less somehow with smaller magazines?


The difference is 10 shots per mag vs. 100. Not 26 vs 20.
 
2012-12-28 10:20:23 AM  

Oh you're right sub-tard... I guess even the police shouldn't have guns!!!!



Using a gun grab by an in custody criminal as your call for gun control.... too many lulz.....
 
2012-12-28 10:20:30 AM  

cameroncrazy1984: Scerpes: Oysterman: That does it. We need to give police officers guns. Then everyone would be too scared to shoot them.

Yeah. It's not like the armed police officers shot and killed the bad guy before he could hurt anyone else. Oh...wait...

But I was told they pick their targets because they have "gun-free" signs outside. Is that not the case?


I've never used that line of reasoning. It's quite possible. Of course when you've got an asshole in a police station that wants to leave and the police won't let him, he might try to get a hold of a weapon anyway.
 
2012-12-28 10:21:26 AM  
Shooter killed by the good guys. Problem solved.

/Former LEO
 
2012-12-28 10:21:36 AM  

dittybopper: Actually, they did subby:

Three New Jersey police officers were reportedly wounded during a shooting inside the Gloucester Township Police station.
MyFoxPhilly.com reports that the suspected shooter has been shot and killed.

Initial report is that 3 are wounded, and the shooter was shot and killed.

Seems to me that having a bunch of guns around prevented that from being much worse.


Yeah, about that. The shooter got his weapon from one of the cops during a struggle...
 
2012-12-28 10:21:38 AM  
There is a woman sleeping safely in her bed tonight.
 
2012-12-28 10:22:19 AM  
Taken from a cam at the scene:

img32.imageshack.us
 
2012-12-28 10:22:22 AM  

imontheinternet: Nem Wan: The shooter took a cop's gun. Nobody would be able to get a gun from a teacher.

[schmoesknow.com image 432x256]
What an average teacher might look like


photo.shockya.com
 
2012-12-28 10:22:26 AM  
You know what, honest question here for the "guns are not a part of the problem" crowd. I like facts and numbers and figures and I like to draw conclusions from them. Here's a series of facts I've gleaned from FBI crime stats and Wikipedia tables for other threads since Newtown:

1. The USA is far and away the most heavily armed society in the world. More than 88 guns per 100 citizens. More than 40% of all people in the country between the ages of zero and dead own at least one gun. That last bit isn't "on average", that's actually people who own at least one gun.

2. The OECD member country list is useful for comparing like nations based on their development. Among OECD member countries, only Mexico has more gun crimes per capita than the USA

3. 37/50 states in the USA have "will-issue" laws on the books for concealed carry permits. 2 states are "constitutional carry" and do not even require a permit. One state is technically "shall issue" but operates as "will issue". That means in 40 out 50 states the only people who can't get a concealed carry permit are felons and people who are known to be mentally unstable (which is a small number of people since states are not required to provide that information to the FBI anymore).

4. Only 7 of 50 states ranked 50 (out of 100) or above on Brady Campaign's gun control scorecard. 5 more ranked 25 or above leaving 38 of 50 states scoring 24 or less with the majority scoring between 0 and 10.

How can you, in a country more armed than any other nation, with a vast majority of states allowing unchallenged concealed carry for non-felons, and a vast majority of states having weak or no gun control laws on the books reconcile the argument that the problem is we need more armed citizens when we also lead all developed nations (except the one embroiled in a massive drug war) in gun violence and are way up the list on all countries combined?

I literally cannot even begin to comprehend the argument here. We're already more armed than any other country on earth, with the vast majority of states having extremely loose controls on concealed carry and what you can buy.... yet we lead the developed world in gun violence and the argument is there aren't enough people with guns?

You literally can't own more guns per capita than any other country on earth no matter how many more you add. If we're already the most heavily armed populace on the planet, but also the 10th most dangerous for gun violence.... how is more guns even remotely a justifiable position based on any actual data?
 
2012-12-28 10:22:51 AM  

ongbok: socodog: Many police stations have lock boxes at the vestibule of the in-booking area where police lock their weapon before escorting a subject in. I guess this one did not.

I thought that this is how most police stations operated also to keep things like this from happening. With the exception of a few armed officers that don't handle suspects and are there for security.


I've been in a ton of police stations and none of them ever required officers to secure weapons. The only place they usually have to do that is in a custody area, such as a jail. And it's entirely possible that they had this guy in an interview area that would not require them to secure their weapons.
 
2012-12-28 10:22:51 AM  
We need more big government. More guys with guns in case the good guys get their guns taken away.
 
2012-12-28 10:23:33 AM  

Audaeus: If only someone could explain why only 3 people were shot... hmm, it's a little hard....


You're right.  It shouldn't have been any.
 
2012-12-28 10:24:30 AM  

KIA: Coco LaFemme: KIA: Coco LaFemme: How many people have died in this country as a result of guns since Newtown? Something like 500+?

About the same number that have died as a result of the flu. Same as always. Did you get your flu shot?

Yup.  Though I'd like to see something empirical that says over 500 people have died of the flu in the last three weeks.

Last summer, the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention issued a report showing that over 20,000 people a year die in the U.S. as a result of influenza. About 90% of those people are over age 65, even though people over 65 make up only about 15% of the population.

See here: http://www.usmedicine.com/compendium/with-90-of-us-influenza-deaths-in -elderly-new-high-dose-vaccine-seeks-lower-mortality-morbidity-rates.h tml

CDC reported firearm homicides from 2009 as 11,493. Verify here http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm

Homicide is ranked #15 on the causes of death chart, far below heart disease, diabetes, influenza, septicemia, cirrhosis, and hypertension. Heck, it's lower than Parkinson's disease. Verify: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr60/nvsr60_03.pdf
Heart disease and cancer caused 47.9% of the deaths all by themselves. Homicide itself was down 6.8% from 2008. Id.

By the way, the vast majority of firearms homicides are committed by people with prior criminal records. In Philadelphia, the percentage of those killed in gun homicides that had prior criminal records increased from 73% in 1985 to 93% in 1996. Other sources suggest that as much as 90% of all firearms offenses are committed by people with prior criminal convictions.


That's all well and good, but that's not what I asked you for.  If I wanted to know how many people died every year as a result of the flu, I could have looked that up on my own.  Same with every other statistic you threw at me.  You said that the same number of people that have died as a result of gun violence in the last three weeks is the same number of people who have died of the flu, and I wanted you to show me something that said that over 500 people have died of the flu in the last 21 days.
 
2012-12-28 10:24:39 AM  

Mart Laar's beard shaver: Taken from a cam at the scene:

[img32.imageshack.us image 650x366]


So close, and yet so far.
 
2012-12-28 10:24:44 AM  

cameroncrazy1984: Benjamin Orr: Bontesla: The Muthaship: Bontesla: So maybe the shooter only kills 20 instead of 27? That's not a significant improvement.

Really?

Is 20 your definition of a significant improvement? You aim low.

Not that I think that having armed guards in every school is a good thing... but isn't this the exact argument used to limit magazine size? That yes people will still die but it will be less somehow with smaller magazines?

The difference is 10 shots per mag vs. 100. Not 26 vs 20.


My point is that either reducing deaths is a good thing or it isn't.

I don't even want to know what a handgun with a 100 rd magazine would look like.
 
2012-12-28 10:26:15 AM  

Scerpes: I've been in a ton of police stations and none of them ever required officers to secure weapons.


imagemacros.files.wordpress.com
 
2012-12-28 10:26:39 AM  

Mart Laar's beard shaver: Taken from a cam at the scene:


robertus: [photo.shockya.com image 500x375]


3 seconds off.  Damn, that was close.  Still awesome, though.
 
2012-12-28 10:26:54 AM  
Personally, I'm happy the officers are alive and hopefully able to return to their duties of turning their Tasers on the true criminal element that are elderly women and school children.
 
2012-12-28 10:27:06 AM  
Identical thing almost happened up here in Vermont earlier this year.
Guy I knew got hauled in for domestic (he went ballistic when he caught his wife in bed with a chick) and went for the cops gun while drunk. Needless to say, her bed's warm and his cot's cold.
 
KIA
2012-12-28 10:27:40 AM  

Vegan Meat Popsicle: If we're already the most heavily armed populace on the planet, but also the 10th most dangerous for gun violence


You see what you did right there, right?
 
2012-12-28 10:27:48 AM  

Kiriyama9000: liam76: Kiriyama9000: The jerk-off probably managed to yank one of the officers service weapons from a holster.
The cops responded with deadly force and killed the mother farker.
Thankfully there were only injuries to the police and only some asshat is dead.

This is how things are supposed to work
Really?

I am pretty sure whn the police have somebody in custody they, as a rule, shouldn't be able to take police officers weapon from them.
You're making an assumption that every officer is perfect at their job.
You also fail to realize that the officer needs access to their service weapon.
They can do as much as they can to prevent others from gaining access, but it is still a weapon holstered at their side that they need immediate access to should the need arise. Other officers did this and lives were saved because of it.

Where are you going with your logic?


I made no assumption.

You claimed this was how it was supposed to work, I pointed out it was pretty stupid to think that a guy, in custody, grabbing a cops gun is how it is "supposed to work".

it is also pretty stupid to claim their lives were saved by having guns holstered at their side when their lives were put in danger because they couldn't control guns holstered at their side.


What should the officers have done prior to this?
Disarm themselves and then move the guy?

They are armed for a reason.
For this very reason.


The officer should have made sure a person in custody couldn't take their weapon.

The officer who lost their weapon has just shown it isn't safe for them to carry a weapon.
 
2012-12-28 10:28:27 AM  

vudukungfu: Identical thing almost happened up here in Vermont earlier this year.
Guy I knew got hauled in for domestic (he went ballistic when he caught his wife in bed with a chick) and went for the cops gun while drunk. Needless to say, her bed's warm and his cot's cold.


Your friend sounds unstable and illogical
 
2012-12-28 10:28:27 AM  

Vodka Zombie: Personally, I'm happy the officers are alive and hopefully able to return to their duties of turning their Tasers on the true criminal element that are elderly women and school children.


With a little luck, they'll get a dirty hippy or two.
 
2012-12-28 10:28:58 AM  

vudukungfu: Gay guy I knew got hauled in for domestic (he went ballistic when he caught his wife in bed with a chick)


FTFY
 
2012-12-28 10:29:10 AM  

vudukungfu: when he caught his wife in bed with a chick


.... but why was he mad?
 
KIA
2012-12-28 10:29:18 AM  

Coco LaFemme: I wanted you to show me something that said that over 500 people have died of the flu in the last 21 days.


So, you don't believe in math or averages? Try it and see what you get. Go on. 20,000 flu deaths a year vs 11,493 firearms deaths per annum. I know you can do it!
 
2012-12-28 10:29:18 AM  

FinFangFark: I was gonna make a crack about the NRA blaming Grand Theft Auto for this, and how their should be vets walking the halls with guns to prevent these things...but meh, it's Friday...gonna go grab a breakfast taco instead.


Ladies and gentlemen, the most reasonable man on fark.

Driving into Pueblo this morning, a breakfast taco sounds right up my alley.
 
2012-12-28 10:29:43 AM  
AWESOME!

These gunmen are finally going after the right people!
 
2012-12-28 10:30:05 AM  
3 injured, 2 minor and one in stable condition, and a dead shooter.
Nice try, but +1 guns.
 
2012-12-28 10:30:45 AM  

People_are_Idiots: The nice thing about those though it takes a little bit more thought to get to the gun, something this guy probably didn't have. As far as having him cuffed or not, my thought was in this line: "Police said a suspect was under arrest in connection with a domestic violence-related incident." Usually if you're under arrest like that from what I've seen, you're already in cuffs (not arguing with you mind you). Most towns I know of have their police station in the jail, so it isn't unusual to have police bringing the perp to the station.


Well, newspapers use the term arrest a lot and most people always picture an arrest as being cuffed and taken to jail. That leads to a lot of "what?? he was arrested for littering, jay walking, simple possession????" etc. I activate my lights and pull you over, technically that is an arrest. I give you a ticket for misdemeanor possession and you get to walk away. That is an arrest and release on summons.

So this guy "being arrested" doesn't automatically mean he was in cuffs.

It happens a lot for people turning themselves in at the jail. Jail Deputies can't arrest people so we will go over. Handcuff them for about 2 minutes while we search, take off the cuffs, issue the warrant, and take them to processing. Easily those guys could have changed their minds and decided they didn't want to go to jail that night.  Because they are turning themselves in they are not in the secure area of the jail and therefore I remain armed because they can be. It's only when I take them to processing to I turn over my weapons.
 
2012-12-28 10:30:54 AM  

WillyChase: FinFangFark: I was gonna make a crack about the NRA blaming Grand Theft Auto for this, and how their should be vets walking the halls with guns to prevent these things...but meh, it's Friday...gonna go grab a breakfast taco instead.

Ladies and gentlemen, the most reasonable man on fark.

Driving into Pueblo this morning, a breakfast taco sounds right up my alley.


Well it will certainly be shooting down your alley later on
 
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