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(USA Today)   For the second time this month, a man is killed by being pushed in front of a subway train. Time to ban subway trains   (usatoday.com) divider line 49
    More: Scary, New York Police Department  
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7768 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Dec 2012 at 10:49 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2012-12-28 11:14:24 AM  
11 votes:
Dear Admin we all like to call the "Freeper Friday Guy":

I've noticed a bunch of "X kills Y people, time to ban X" headlines popping up lately, and I have no doubt you are the one responsible for them. But while your constant exposure to right-wing news source may have dulled YOUR intellect, the rest of us are still sharp enough to spot a "false equivalency" when we see one. Two people dying in a month is not the same as 20 children dying in a matter of minutes or dozens of theatre patrons dying withiin seconds of each other. A mother threatening to attack children with a shovel is also not the same, and a madman in China stabbing 20 kids, while close, still isn't the same because none of those kids died.

I like guns too but I'm having a hard time sticking up for them because of the utter infantility of some of the most outspoken anti-control arguments that seem to be floating around the web. Guns are uniquely dangerous items because they are WEAPONS- ie tools whose DESIGNED PURPOSE is to kill things. Masses of shoolchildren, theatregoers or random citizens being shot dead on a regular basis is an utterly unacceptable outcome in a civilized society. So, either we're going to have to make these weapons that facilitate these slaughters harder to come by generally, or we're going to have to do something about spotting and identifying those most likely to misuse them this way and treating/controlling them before they act.

And Frankly, it seems to me the onus is on YOU guys this time to come up with a solution, not to whine like crybabaies about how mean the rest of us are being by trying to take away your preciouses
2012-12-28 01:17:45 AM  
10 votes:
Forget this deinstitutionalization nonsense. We need to go back to nuthouses, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest style. The vast majority of homeless and transient people out there suffer from a variety of mental disorders, with no help or assistance whatsoever, and this is what ends up happening. Get these nuts off the streets, and get them the help they need. Figure out some way to filter out the dangerous ones from the ones that merely have social problems or mild personality disorders that can be treated and allow them to be reintegrated back into society, and keep the dangerous ones locked away.
2012-12-28 09:47:30 AM  
9 votes:
the perps in this case and the prior subway push case and the newtown, ct shooting and the aurora, CO shooting all have one thing in common - mental health issues.
2012-12-28 02:14:11 AM  
8 votes:
I have a question.

I work in commercial construction. If I build a sidewalk or walkway with a "ledge" that's more than 12" high, a safety railing is required.

WTF is up with these death platforms at train and subway stations?!?!
2012-12-28 10:51:51 AM  
7 votes:
Because this would cost money:

cdn0.sbnation.com
2012-12-28 11:58:45 AM  
4 votes:

walkerhound: This argument makes sense, because like pit bulls, the only purpose of guns is to kill living things.  Why, I killed one of these with a gun just last week:
[www.bowzmart.com image 193x196]


So you were either practicing to kill living things, or you were playing with a toy. Both totally necessary and worth all the extraneous killing.

/Fark has become a lowest common denominator troll site. But whatever brings in the clicks, right, Drew?
2012-12-28 11:34:14 AM  
4 votes:
Time to ban subway trains

Is there one person here who doubts for one farking second that 10,000 annual deaths from subway mishaps would result in significant safety reforms?

Just one person. Go ahead, raise your hand and let's see who you are. Subby, you?  Anybody at all?
2012-12-28 10:04:01 AM  
4 votes:
in fact, you add the tucson guy and the miami face-eating guy, the one thing they all have in common is mental health issues.  When was the last time the suspect in one of these horrific national stories wasn't crazy?
2012-12-28 07:57:13 AM  
4 votes:

Pray 4 Mojo: I have a question.

I work in commercial construction. If I build a sidewalk or walkway with a "ledge" that's more than 12" high, a safety railing is required.

WTF is up with these death platforms at train and subway stations?!?!


The solution already exists:  platform screen doors.
2012-12-28 11:10:38 AM  
3 votes:
Pardon me but what do all these killing have in common? Not guns, not knives, not hammers and not trains no, no, no....crazy. We need to go back to rounding up crazy and putting them away. Who's farken Stupid idea was it to let them roam free anyway? Was it the same people who thought a man who killed his 92 year old grandmother with a hammer could be safely returned to sociality instead of a mental institution?
2012-12-28 11:01:37 AM  
3 votes:
Time to ban subway trains

This argument makes sense, because like guns, trains' only purpose is to kill living things.
2012-12-28 12:09:08 PM  
2 votes:

hasty ambush:

A study done during the 1990s, by Univ. of Syracuse IIRC, divided the homeless into 3 groups roughly equal in size (out of an est. population fo 500,000 to 800,000 not the millions some claimed at the time) .

1/3 were t temporary homeless (90 days or less) 1/3 actually chose the hobo lifestyle. It was how they wanted to live. the final group was mostly made up of the mentally ill and those with various addictions.


Never discount those who just give the fark up for financial reasons. Say your job gets outsourced after 20-odd years, and instead of sitting around watching TV you do everything possible to find a job and still can't get hired. Maybe your skill set is passe', maybe there's too much competition from youngsters they can pay much less. So you can't afford rent. And because your family & friends are in lousy fiscal shape themselves so they can't take you in. So you wind up on the streets, which makes it even harder to find work. (You try it.) And there are an awful lot of poor people around town, and you can't afford to move someplace else with any hope of getting a better deal, because being broke & hopeless in NYC ain't that much different from being very down on your luck in Denver or St. Louis. So you just give up and do the best you can with the hand you've got: if all you see any reason to care about anymore is just not dying yet then "the hobo lifestyle" ain't THAT bad, at least the Salvation Army will feed you and find you a coat.

You don't have to be crazy to be homeless, nor do you need to choose it. Sometimes it just happens.
2012-12-28 11:56:48 AM  
2 votes:

Holocaust Agnostic: Princess Ryans Knickers: Shooting at police station today, obviously would never have happened if they had more guns

Shooter stooped after wounding three. I think they had enough guns.


Are ya sure? Cause FOX News and the NRA both assured me that just having guns would have stopped the shooting before it started!
2012-12-28 11:32:38 AM  
2 votes:

THX 1138: SlothB77:

the perps in this case and the prior subway push case and the newtown, ct shooting and the aurora, CO shooting all have one thing in common - mental health issues.

Last I checked, the perpetrator in this case is unidentified. But thanks for the clearly researched and cited declaration of her mental health, doctor.


I'm against stigmatizing those who just think/act differently myself, but someone who, while walking around mumbling to herself, walks up to a stranger and kills him for no reason might justifiably be presumed to have "issues." Maybe M'Naghten won't apply but she's probably "just not right."

Back in the early '80s I was doing a three-day evaluation/vacation, simply talking to my lawyer on the payphone, when out of the blue a newer patient ran up behind me and neat me down pretty bad: his voices told him I was his mortal enemy and must be stopped NOW. Yet most people I knowingly piss off don't lift a finger against me let alone try to kill me, simply because they use rational judgment to decide it's not worth the trouble.

Maybe you'd prefer we breed Americans for total docility?
2012-12-28 11:30:17 AM  
2 votes:

monoski: The One True TheDavid: Amos Quito:

That woman pushed the poor guy to his death with her arms.

It's time we had a rational discussion about disarming women.
[3.bp.blogspot.com image 298x299]

What do you say to a woman with no arms or legs?

//Nice tits!


Bonus: You won't get slapped for saying so.
2012-12-28 11:29:52 AM  
2 votes:
next time someone pushes twenty 6-year-olds in front of a train at once, I'll call for banning trains.

Until then, proper regulation and monitoring is probably all that's needed
2012-12-28 11:24:02 AM  
2 votes:
I wonder if Bob Costas has anything to say about how these trains are killing people.
2012-12-28 11:05:25 AM  
2 votes:

spman: Forget this deinstitutionalization nonsense. We need to go back to nuthouses, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest style. The vast majority of homeless and transient people out there suffer from a variety of mental disorders, with no help or assistance whatsoever, and this is what ends up happening. Get these nuts off the streets, and get them the help they need. Figure out some way to filter out the dangerous ones from the ones that merely have social problems or mild personality disorders that can be treated and allow them to be reintegrated back into society, and keep the dangerous ones locked away.



Excellent point. Lock up the crazies.

But how do you spot them?

Easy: Anyone who disagrees with my political opinions.
2012-12-28 11:02:38 AM  
2 votes:
That woman pushed the poor guy to his death with her arms.

It's time we had a rational discussion about disarming women.
2012-12-28 10:55:09 AM  
2 votes:
3.bp.blogspot.com

[male robot voice]
Step away from the doors and away from the windows.
[/voice]

I was very upset when I went through Hartsfield a couple months ago and the voice was gone. But, to my knowledge, not one person has ever been pushed in front of those trains.
2012-12-28 10:54:52 AM  
2 votes:

Bontesla: bingethinker: Time to ban subway trains

After all of this discourse - how the hell do people still not understand the argument?


We call them trolls here on Fark
2012-12-28 10:54:38 AM  
2 votes:

spman: Forget this deinstitutionalization nonsense. We need to go back to nuthouses, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest style. The vast majority of homeless and transient people out there suffer from a variety of mental disorders, with no help or assistance whatsoever, and this is what ends up happening. Get these nuts off the streets, and get them the help they need. Figure out some way to filter out the dangerous ones from the ones that merely have social problems or mild personality disorders that can be treated and allow them to be reintegrated back into society, and keep the dangerous ones locked away.


That would require some sort of socialized medicine.
2012-12-28 06:48:04 AM  
2 votes:

bingethinker: Time to ban subway trains


After all of this discourse - how the hell do people still not understand the argument?
2012-12-28 01:03:19 AM  
2 votes:
Jack Mort wanted for questioning.
2012-12-28 03:22:49 PM  
1 votes:
This is definition of a hero:

"On January 2, 2007, Autrey was waiting for a train at the 137th Street - City College subway station in Manhattan with his two young daughters. At around 12:45 p.m., he and two women noticed a young man, Cameron Hollopeter, having a seizure. Autrey borrowed a pen and used it to keep Hollopeter's jaw open. Following the seizure, Hollopeter stumbled from the platform, falling onto the tracks.

As Hollopeter lay on the tracks, Autrey saw the lights of an oncoming train. As one of the women held Autrey's daughters back away from the edge of the platform, Autrey dove onto the tracks. He thought he would be able to take Hollopeter off the tracks, but he realized there was not enough time to drag Hollopeter away. Instead, he protected Hollopeter by throwing himself over Hollopeter's body in a drainage trench between the tracks, where he held him down. Though the operator of the train applied the brakes, all but two cars still passed over them, close enough to leave grease on his cap.[3]

Autrey told The New York Times "I don't feel like I did something spectacular; I just saw someone who needed help. I did what I felt was right." [3] Wesley is a member of the LIUNA union, Local 79, and credits his training with having helped him make the split-second decision: "Since I do construction work with Local 79, we work in confined spaces a lot. So I looked, and my judgment was pretty right. The train did have enough room for me."[4]
2012-12-28 12:33:50 PM  
1 votes:

kareninsf: Unfortunately sociopaths are now considered a "personality disorder-antisocial" prime CEO material.
They scare me the most and slip through the cracks


FTFY
2012-12-28 12:24:25 PM  
1 votes:

Magorn: Dear Admin we all like to call the "Freeper Friday Guy":

I've noticed a bunch of "X kills Y people, time to ban X" headlines popping up lately, and I have no doubt you are the one responsible for them. But while your constant exposure to right-wing news source may have dulled YOUR intellect, the rest of us are still sharp enough to spot a "false equivalency" when we see one. Two people dying in a month is not the same as 20 children dying in a matter of minutes or dozens of theatre patrons dying withiin seconds of each other. A mother threatening to attack children with a shovel is also not the same, and a madman in China stabbing 20 kids, while close, still isn't the same because none of those kids died.

I like guns too but I'm having a hard time sticking up for them because of the utter infantility of some of the most outspoken anti-control arguments that seem to be floating around the web. Guns are uniquely dangerous items because they are WEAPONS- ie tools whose DESIGNED PURPOSE is to kill things. Masses of shoolchildren, theatregoers or random citizens being shot dead on a regular basis is an utterly unacceptable outcome in a civilized society. So, either we're going to have to make these weapons that facilitate these slaughters harder to come by generally, or we're going to have to do something about spotting and identifying those most likely to misuse them this way and treating/controlling them before they act.

And Frankly, it seems to me the onus is on YOU guys this time to come up with a solution, not to whine like crybabaies about how mean the rest of us are being by trying to take away your preciouses


I agree that the X kills Y, ban Z is getting old and stupid.

What I don't agree with is using emotion to ban things. It's not sensible to take away things that statistically don't cause as much crime as other things.

Estimated number of guns in the US: 270,000,000 (various sources state this number)

Using 2011 data, let's swing the argument in your favor and say that 20,000,000 came into being in the US this year... (plus it gives us nice round numbers), so let's say in 2011, there were only 250,000,000 guns.

In 2011, all gun deaths reported were 32,163 (taken from the CDC data).

Again, to strengthen your argument, and weaken mine, let's say 1 gun was used for each of those gun deaths. (that way more of the evil guns are to blame)

So we have 32,163 guns out of 250,000,000 that killed someone. That's 0.013% of guns used to kill someone.

In 2009, it was reported that there were 352,810 gun-related crimes in the US. (Bureau of Justice Statistics). Let;s round that up (again strengthening your argument) to 375,000 for 2011. Again, let's assume they were all different guns.

So we have 375,000 out of 250,000,000 guns used in crimes. That's 0.15% of guns used in a crime.

Since a portion of those guns would be used in multiple crimes and/or deaths, the actual rates are lower.

You're looking for an overreaching solution to a very small (but significant) problem. It's not logical, it's emotional. Laws, restrictions, or any freedom reducing measure should NEVER be done out of a reaction to emotion. Otherwise we get pieces of trash like the PATRIOT Act.
2012-12-28 12:17:34 PM  
1 votes:
We should ban New York.
2012-12-28 11:40:43 AM  
1 votes:

Magorn: Dear Admin we all like to call the "Freeper Friday Guy":

I've noticed a bunch of "X kills Y people, time to ban X" headlines popping up lately, and I have no doubt you are the one responsible for them. But while your constant exposure to right-wing news source may have dulled YOUR intellect, the rest of us are still sharp enough to spot a "false equivalency" when we see one. Two people dying in a month is not the same as 20 children dying in a matter of minutes or dozens of theatre patrons dying withiin seconds of each other. A mother threatening to attack children with a shovel is also not the same, and a madman in China stabbing 20 kids, while close, still isn't the same because none of those kids died.

I like guns too but I'm having a hard time sticking up for them because of the utter infantility of some of the most outspoken anti-control arguments that seem to be floating around the web. Guns are uniquely dangerous items because they are WEAPONS- ie tools whose DESIGNED PURPOSE is to kill things. Masses of shoolchildren, theatregoers or random citizens being shot dead on a regular basis is an utterly unacceptable outcome in a civilized society. So, either we're going to have to make these weapons that facilitate these slaughters harder to come by generally, or we're going to have to do something about spotting and identifying those most likely to misuse them this way and treating/controlling them before they act.

And Frankly, it seems to me the onus is on YOU guys this time to come up with a solution, not to whine like crybabaies about how mean the rest of us are being by trying to take away your preciouses


Aw Fark off!
2012-12-28 11:34:10 AM  
1 votes:

tricycleracer: Because this would cost money:

[cdn0.sbnation.com image 640x478]


It's my understanding that those are only on the Jubilee Line. The majority of London Underground platforms are as unprotected as New York's.

Installing platform edge doors in the busiest subway stations would prevent people from accidentally falling onto the tracks from crowded platforms, but somebody can jump or be pushed from any platform whatsoever. Safety measures are a lot more cost-efficient than security measures.
2012-12-28 11:33:43 AM  
1 votes:

KimNorth: Pardon me but what do all these killing have in common? Not guns, not knives, not hammers and not trains no, no, no....crazy. We need to go back to rounding up crazy and putting them away. Who's farken Stupid idea was it to let them roam free anyway? Was it the same people who thought a man who killed his 92 year old grandmother with a hammer could be safely returned to sociality instead of a mental institution?


Pretty sure that would be Ronald Reagan.

\time to legalize hunting the mentally-ill for sport?
2012-12-28 11:27:43 AM  
1 votes:
This is why I stay either close to the wall or in the middle of the platform if there's no wall. And people need to stop leaning over the platform to see if the train is coming. You looking for the light isn't going to make it come any faster (that's what she said).
2012-12-28 11:26:35 AM  
1 votes:
A friend in NYC tells me she no longer stands on the platforms waiting for the train. She will either stand by steps leading down to the platform until the train comes, or, where the turnstile leads directly to the platform, wait by the turnstile and go through once the train is in the station. She says there are just too many crazies wandering the platforms and randomly bothering people these days.
2012-12-28 11:24:32 AM  
1 votes:

SlothB77: the perps in this case and the prior subway push case and the newtown, ct shooting and the aurora, CO shooting all have one thing in common - mental health issues.


so ... you're saying we need to have stricter ledge control laws in subway tunnels?
2012-12-28 11:23:05 AM  
1 votes:

GORDON: SlothB77: the perps in this case and the prior subway push case and the newtown, ct shooting and the aurora, CO shooting all have one thing in common - mental health issues.

That's too simplistic. Any petty criminal or child or menstruating woman or person with a hobby they get really excited about could be considered mentally ill, depending on the definition.


Can we lock these up? Just until they stop crying/screaming for no reason.
2012-12-28 11:20:14 AM  
1 votes:

Citrate1007: spman: Forget this deinstitutionalization nonsense. We need to go back to nuthouses, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest style. The vast majority of homeless and transient people out there suffer from a variety of mental disorders, with no help or assistance whatsoever, and this is what ends up happening. Get these nuts off the streets, and get them the help they need. Figure out some way to filter out the dangerous ones from the ones that merely have social problems or mild personality disorders that can be treated and allow them to be reintegrated back into society, and keep the dangerous ones locked away.

That would require some sort of socialized medicine.


Or going back in time and undoing what Reagan did, which will never, ever happen as long as Republicans keep worshiping him as a false idol. (especially since he increased government spending over what Carter did)
2012-12-28 11:20:06 AM  
1 votes:

THX 1138: SlothB77: the perps in this case and the prior subway push case and the newtown, ct shooting and the aurora, CO shooting all have one thing in common - mental health issues.

Last I checked, the perpetrator in this case is unidentified. But thanks for the clearly researched and cited declaration of her mental health, doctor.


FAFA:

Witnesses told investigators that the woman had been sitting alone on a bench, mumbling, but sometimes getting up to pace back and forth.
"She was acting weird and crazy," the source said.
2012-12-28 11:16:07 AM  
1 votes:

Princess Ryans Knickers: Shooting at police station today, obviously would never have happened if they had more guns

The man grabbed a gun and began firing. Three officers were hit before the suspect was shot and killed.


Looks like they did have more guns, and the problem was solved before he racked up more injuries. I say injuries because none of the officers died in that article.
2012-12-28 11:15:57 AM  
1 votes:
Headline would make sense if this somehow allowe dyou to push 26 people to their deaths with little ability to fight back in a short period of time.
2012-12-28 11:13:08 AM  
1 votes:

Amos Quito:

Lock up the crazies.

But how do you spot them?

Easy: Anyone who disagrees with my political opinions.


Touché, sir and/or ma'am.
2012-12-28 11:10:35 AM  
1 votes:

Pray 4 Mojo: I have a question.

I work in commercial construction. If I build a sidewalk or walkway with a "ledge" that's more than 12" high, a safety railing is required.

WTF is up with these death platforms at train and subway stations?!?!


Because you deserve at least one sincere answer:

The vast majority of the NYC subway system was built out before any rule like that was likely in place, and between labor costs, the sheer amount of stations, the 24-hour nature of the system making maintenance a right biatch, and station size it's legitimately a big ask of a constantly cash-strapped bureaucracy.

Also, the trains aren't automated, and you're asking a lot - A LOT - of your average subway train conductor to line up the train just so that the doors open at pre-determined spots on the platform.

For all the praise NYC gets for its embracing of mass transit, we're pretty far behind. Our signal system is still largely 50+ years old with only about 7 lines getting upgraded to something that allows any kind of real-time tracking. So what happens? People lean over the platform to see if a train is coming.

/ I think many are starting to think twice with all these stories cropping up.
// I know I am.
2012-12-28 11:10:05 AM  
1 votes:
I assumed that people being hit by subway trains was extremely rare, but according to New York's MTA, 147 people were struck by subway trains and 47 killed, just last year. Sounds like an inherently dangerous product to me.
2012-12-28 11:09:50 AM  
1 votes:
If we all carried guns this would never happen. We could just shoot people instead of pushing them. This isn't rocket science, people!
2012-12-28 11:09:15 AM  
1 votes:
We need armed teachers on every platform!
2012-12-28 11:05:18 AM  
1 votes:

Citrate1007: spman:

[...]
Figure out some way to filter out the dangerous ones from the ones that merely have social problems or mild personality disorders that can be treated and allow them to be reintegrated back into society, and keep the dangerous ones locked away.

That would require some sort of socialized medicine.


Dear Tea Partiers: This shows why "Obamacare" ain't socialist enough.
2012-12-28 10:57:58 AM  
1 votes:
Time to ban all arms, not just firearms.
2012-12-28 10:05:35 AM  
1 votes:
All subway riders should be armed with their own trains.
2012-12-28 09:58:41 AM  
1 votes:
BAN 4-FOOT DROPS.
2012-12-28 02:02:03 AM  
1 votes:
Time to ban subway trains

i306.photobucket.com
 
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