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(USA Today)   For the second time this month, a man is killed by being pushed in front of a subway train. Time to ban subway trains   (usatoday.com) divider line 218
    More: Scary, New York Police Department  
•       •       •

7774 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Dec 2012 at 10:49 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-28 12:42:22 PM  

The One True TheDavid: Chinchillazilla: The One True TheDavid: Huck Chaser:

A lot of folks in this thread need to lighten up; the headline was obviously a joke.

Agreed.

And this thread is a good way to bring attention to America's need for socialized medicine including mental health care.

Commie! Why do you hate America? If I want to die on the streets muttering to myself I have the freedom to do so!

Seriously: you should have the option to choose it or not.

If you're not bothering anybody and can take care of yourself reasonably well considering your circumstances "they" should leave you alone. But there should be programs set up to help people like you if you want it and outreach centers to let you know about it.

They don't HAVE to be taxpayer-funded, but as charitable donations decrease in tough times the Salvation Army can't do as much as it'd like. So divert money from the arms race (against what?) to take care of Americans.

Sorry if I don't find homelessness easy to joke about: I've been homeless, against my will so to speak, and it wasn't very funny.


I'm sincerely sorry. I was just being an asshole. I actually completely agree with you - I have a couple of psychological disorders, and while my family is supportive and helps me get help, it's STILL difficult to get it sometimes. It should be much easier, especially for low-income people who don't have hundreds to throw at therapy.
 
2012-12-28 12:42:56 PM  
Won't really won't be an issue until it's a mass subway pushing 20 or more people, or a Blonde chick.
 
2012-12-28 12:46:22 PM  

Uranus Is Huge!: KimNorth: Who's farken Stupid idea was it to let them roam free anyway?

Ronald Reagan's


Ahem-

It began in the 1960s with the the Community Mental Health Act of 1963 (JFK) and advocacy groups such as the ACLU demanding a lower standard for commitment. As long as patients could \wash and dress themselves and could perform the mechanical tasks of feeding themselves, then every effort was made to force the institutions to release them.

The courts have more to do with this situation than any executive-even today

Judge Orders New York to Move Mentally Ill Out of Large, Institutional Housing
March 1, 2010
"New York State must begin moving thousands of people with mental illness into their own apartments or small homes and out of large, institutional adult homes that keep them segregated from society, a federal judge ordered on Monday."
 
2012-12-28 12:47:04 PM  

walkerhound: ultimabeam: Time to ban subway trains

This argument makes sense, because like guns, trains' only purpose is to kill living things.

This argument makes sense, because like pit bulls, the only purpose of guns is to kill living things.  Why, I killed one of these with a gun just last week:

[www.bowzmart.com image 193x196]


This argument makes sense, because like guns, the only purpose of trains is self defense and protection of individual liberty.
 
2012-12-28 12:50:25 PM  
Wait...suspect is female, angry and today is the 28th day of the month.  Is anyone else thinking what I'm thinking?


The Mayans were off by a few days.
 
2012-12-28 12:54:53 PM  

Chinchillazilla: The One True TheDavid:
[...]

Sorry if I don't find homelessness easy to joke about: I've been homeless, against my will so to speak, and it wasn't very funny.

I'm sincerely sorry. I was just being an asshole.


I'm sorry you're sorry: I wasn't really finding fault, just confessing a lack of wit. (It can happen, even to me!)

Peace. No prob.
 
2012-12-28 12:57:17 PM  

hasty ambush: spman: Forget this deinstitutionalization nonsense. We need to go back to nuthouses, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest style. The vast majority of homeless and transient people out there suffer from a variety of mental disorders, with no help or assistance whatsoever, and this is what ends up happening. Get these nuts off the streets, and get them the help they need. Figure out some way to filter out the dangerous ones from the ones that merely have social problems or mild personality disorders that can be treated and allow them to be reintegrated back into society, and keep the dangerous ones locked away.

A study done during the 1990s, by Univ. of Syracuse IIRC, divided the homeless into 3 groups roughly equal in size (out of an est. population fo 500,000 to 800,000 not the millions some claimed at the time) .

1/3 were t temporary homeless (90 days or less) 1/3 actually chose the hobo lifestyle. It was how they wanted to live. the final group was mostly made up of the mentally ill and those with various addictions.


and it's that last 1/3rd that comprise the most visible group of homeless. The temporary ones usually still keep up jobs or try to maintain some sense of stability in their lives while they live out of the YMCA or a Homeless shelter.

The ones that are transient by choice usually try their best to stay invisible, and can really only be seen when you go to a fast food joint and see the dude with the giant backpack and ratty clothes listening to music on his headphones and eating dollar cheeseburgers.

The mentally ill ones however are the types you see panhandling in the street, sleeping on benches, bothering people, and creating a nuisance. Despite the services many states make available for the homeless, they're too nuts to take advantage of them, and most homeless shelters won't take them in anyways because they can control their behavior. These are the ones that need to be locked up either until they can be treated, or barring that, permanently if they are a danger to society and no level of assistance can control them.
 
2012-12-28 01:01:16 PM  

Magorn: Dear Admin we all like to call the "Freeper Friday Guy":

I've noticed a bunch of "X kills Y people, time to ban X" headlines popping up lately, and I have no doubt you are the one responsible for them. But while your constant exposure to right-wing news source may have dulled YOUR intellect, the rest of us are still sharp enough to spot a "false equivalency" when we see one. Two people dying in a month is not the same as 20 children dying in a matter of minutes or dozens of theatre patrons dying withiin seconds of each other. A mother threatening to attack children with a shovel is also not the same, and a madman in China stabbing 20 kids, while close, still isn't the same because none of those kids died.

I like guns too but I'm having a hard time sticking up for them because of the utter infantility of some of the most outspoken anti-control arguments that seem to be floating around the web. Guns are uniquely dangerous items because they are WEAPONS- ie tools whose DESIGNED PURPOSE is to kill things. Masses of shoolchildren, theatregoers or random citizens being shot dead on a regular basis is an utterly unacceptable outcome in a civilized society. So, either we're going to have to make these weapons that facilitate these slaughters harder to come by generally, or we're going to have to do something about spotting and identifying those most likely to misuse them this way and treating/controlling them before they act.

And Frankly, it seems to me the onus is on YOU guys this time to come up with a solution, not to whine like crybabaies about how mean the rest of us are being by trying to take away your preciouses


Somebody's sarcasm detector is broken.
 
2012-12-28 01:02:54 PM  
Just put some of these up, you skinflint cheapskates.

dvice.com
 
2012-12-28 01:04:17 PM  
More money needs to be invested in force field r&d.
 
2012-12-28 01:04:21 PM  
Done in one.
 
2012-12-28 01:04:52 PM  

hasty ambush: Uranus Is Huge!: KimNorth: Who's farken Stupid idea was it to let them roam free anyway?

Ronald Reagan's

Ahem-

It began in the 1960s with the the Community Mental Health Act of 1963 (JFK) and advocacy groups such as the ACLU demanding a lower standard for commitment. As long as patients could \wash and dress themselves and could perform the mechanical tasks of feeding themselves, then every effort was made to force the institutions to release them.

The courts have more to do with this situation than any executive-even today

Judge Orders New York to Move Mentally Ill Out of Large, Institutional Housing
March 1, 2010
"New York State must begin moving thousands of people with mental illness into their own apartments or small homes and out of large, institutional adult homes that keep them segregated from society, a federal judge ordered on Monday."


Reagan didn't start it, he just ran with it.

Link
 
2012-12-28 01:08:25 PM  

Zombie Neurosurgeon: ongbok: I sure the Chicago rail system is almost as big as New York's, so I wonder why New York has so many more deaths.

While the physical sizes are similar, 7.5x more people take the NYC subway than Chicago's each year.


And yet Chicago, with strict gun laws, have more people dying in gun deaths.
 
2012-12-28 01:08:44 PM  

tgambitg: You're looking for an overreaching solution to a very small (but significant) problem. It's not logical, it's emotional. Laws, restrictions, or any freedom reducing measure should NEVER be done out of a reaction to emotion. Otherwise we get pieces of trash like the PATRIOT Act.


28 Dec. 2012- Congress has voted to renew the government's authority to monitor electronic communications of foreigners abroad. The Senate on Friday approved a five-year extension by a 73-23 vote and sent the bill to President Barack Obama, who is expected to sign it.
 
2012-12-28 01:15:51 PM  

hasty ambush: tgambitg: You're looking for an overreaching solution to a very small (but significant) problem. It's not logical, it's emotional. Laws, restrictions, or any freedom reducing measure should NEVER be done out of a reaction to emotion. Otherwise we get pieces of trash like the PATRIOT Act.

28 Dec. 2012- Congress has voted to renew the government's authority to monitor electronic communications of foreigners abroad. The Senate on Friday approved a five-year extension by a 73-23 vote and sent the bill to President Barack Obama, who is expected to sign it.


Another piece of trash legislation.
 
2012-12-28 01:19:24 PM  

The One True TheDavid: In the USA? That would cost money. If they won't pay for "socialist" mental health care why would they pay for "socialist" measures like that?


Even Socialism runs into budgetary constraints, look at aging Europe:

German pensioners are being sent to care homes in Eastern Europe and Asia in what has been described as an 'inhumane deportation'.Rising numbers of the elderly and sick are moved overseas for long-term care because of sky-high costs at home.


"According to Germany's federal bureau of statistics, more than 400,000 senior citizens cannot afford a German retirement home, a figure growing by around 5 per cent a year. This is because many are living for longer while their pensions are stagnating.

As a result, the Krankenkassen - or statutory insurers that make up Germany's state insurance system - are discussing cheaper care in foreign retirement homes.

EU law prevents state insurers from signing contracts with overseas homes.

But that is likely to change as legislators are forced to respond to Europe's ageing population. "
 
2012-12-28 01:23:24 PM  

leonel: Just put some of these up, you skinflint cheapskates.

[dvice.com image 593x446]


As Uranus Is Huge! pointed out. It would not be cheap.

Uranus Is Huge!: This seems to be a problem that could be fixed quite easily with two hundred thousand dollars of chain link fence, a million and a half bucks to grease the mafia, and 2 billion dollars or so in Teamster labor.

 
2012-12-28 01:33:08 PM  

SlothB77: When was the last time the suspect in one of these horrific national stories wasn't crazy?


All the other 17,000 homicides per year?
 
2012-12-28 01:36:31 PM  
Not being all that familiar with the NYC subway system, let me ask a question from the point of view of the "pushee".  If I find myself shoved in front of a train, is there enough room to lie down flat between the rails?  The so-called "third rail" isn't in the middle, right?
 
2012-12-28 01:39:47 PM  

ultimabeam: Time to ban subway trains

This argument makes sense, because like guns, trains' only purpose is to kill living things.


Time to arm trains?
 
2012-12-28 01:43:23 PM  
When does the War on Pushing start?
 
2012-12-28 01:44:29 PM  
This should fix it.

img571.imageshack.us
 
2012-12-28 01:45:18 PM  

Amos Quito: That woman pushed the poor guy to his death with her arms.

It's time we had a rational discussion about disarming women.


Don't politicize this. Too soon.
 
2012-12-28 01:48:30 PM  

tricycleracer: Because this would cost money:

[cdn0.sbnation.com image 640x478]


Last I checked New Yorkers were not adverse to being heavily taxed. I guess it is a question of where they want spend the revenue.

Link

New York's personal income tax system consists of seven brackets with a top rate of 8.82%, kicking in at an income level of $10,000,000. Among states levying personal income taxes, this top rate ranks the state 7th highest nationally. New York's 2010 state-level individual income tax collections were $1,796 per person, which ranked 1st highest in the nation.

New York's State and Local Tax Burden Second-Highest in Nation

During the past three decades, New York's state and local tax burden percentage has ranked among the nation's highest, currently estimated at 12.1% of income (2nd nationally), above the current national average of 9.8%. Compared to the 1977 data, New York had a rate of 13.2% (1st nationally), decreasing 1.1% overall. Currently residents pay $6,157 per capita in state and local taxes.


New York's 2013 Business Tax Climate Index Ranks 50th

New York ranks 50th in the Tax Foundation's State Business Tax Climate Index. The Index compares the states in five areas of taxation that impact business: corporate taxes; individual income taxes; sales taxes; unemployment insurance taxes; and taxes on property, including residential and commercial property. The ranks of neighboring states are as follows: Pennsylvania (19th), New Jersey (49th), Connecticut (40th), and Vermont (47th)
 
2012-12-28 01:59:46 PM  

Magorn: the rest of us are still sharp enough to spot a "false equivalency" when we see one. Two people dying in a month is not the same as 20 children dying in a matter of minutes or dozens of theatre patrons dying withiin seconds of each other.


So, please enlighten us- exactly how many must die, and over what time period, to make it similar enough to guns to use an analogy?
 
2012-12-28 02:02:21 PM  
Yaaaaaaaay trains........
 
2012-12-28 02:11:33 PM  

hasty ambush: The One True TheDavid:

In the USA? That would cost money. If they won't pay for "socialist" mental health care why would they pay for "socialist" measures like that?

Even Socialism runs into budgetary constraints, look at aging Europe:

German pensioners are being sent to care homes in Eastern Europe and Asia in what has been described as an 'inhumane deportation'. Rising numbers of the elderly and sick are moved overseas for long-term care because of sky-high costs at home...


Voluntary euthanasia on demand would solve a lot of problems. If you don't want to allow everybody over 18 to get themselves "put to sleep" Just Because then maybe over 50 or with incurable/insurmountable health problems -- again VOLUNTARY. My 50th birthday is in March and I'd be happy to "go home" if offered the option. (Imagine what a difference that would make to Fark!)

"Gravy Train is PEOPLE!"
 
2012-12-28 02:12:32 PM  
Was it an assault train?

www.armchairgeneral.com
 
2012-12-28 02:12:37 PM  
The One True TheDavid:

"Gravy Train is PEOPLE!"

Science Diet is TROLLS!
 
2012-12-28 02:12:44 PM  

ongbok: beefoe: I assumed that people being hit by subway trains was extremely rare, but according to New York's MTA, 147 people were struck by subway trains and 47 killed, just last year. Sounds like an inherently dangerous product to me.

That is odd. According to this article as of August there had only been 6 rail deaths in Chicago. and 9 in 2011, 10 deaths in 2010 and six deaths in 2009
And just about all of them have been contributed to people playing around on the tracks and getting electrocuted, suicide or drunks falling on the tracks.I sure the Chicago rail system is almost as big as New York's, so I wonder why New York has so many more deaths.


I don't have stats in front of me but the MTA is way larger than our glorious CTA. Chicago's entire system is probably equal to just Brooklyn. That's a completely made up guess so let's keep the panties unwadded.

Unwadded auto texted to unwashed. Heh.
 
2012-12-28 02:14:04 PM  
Magorn: the rest of us are still sharp enough to spot a "false equivalency" when we see one. Two people dying in a month is not the same as 20 children dying in a matter of minutes or dozens of theatre patrons dying withiin seconds of each other.

I dont know it matters much to the 20 kids if they where killed over a two week period by drunk drivers vs getting stabbed together in 2 minutes?
 
2012-12-28 02:19:43 PM  

CantConfirmOrDeny: Not being all that familiar with the NYC subway system, let me ask a question from the point of view of the "pushee".  If I find myself shoved in front of a train, is there enough room to lie down flat between the rails?  The so-called "third rail" isn't in the middle, right?


No, the third rail isn't in the middle. However, not every station/rail line in NYC is standardized. So, in some situations, you may be able to lie down flat and survive, but in others, there simply isn't enough room.

The only sure fire thing you can do to reduce your risk of death in these situations is to haul ass as fast as you can towards the end where the front of the train will stop at the station. The ends have stair rails used by Maintenance that you can use to get back on the platform if you make it in time. If you don't, you at least give the train operator more of a chance to stop before they hit you.

There are many solutions out there that could be implemented system-wide to help prevent these tragedies. But they are incredibly rare, and the NYC train system is one of the largest, oldest, and most-used systems in the world. It would take MASSIVE amounts of time and money, and the sad fact is, the political will just isn't there.

Especially when you're talking about the poorly managed finances of the MTA, which raises rates as fast as it possibly can just to maintain most of their services.
 
2012-12-28 02:29:45 PM  

dready zim: colinspooky: ban pushers

You don`t have enough vision.

Ban people. Hell, ban life altogether!
[www.internationalhero.co.uk image 358x500]


Why are his knee pads floating over his knees? Ugh that is making me stare at that as the focal point rather than appreciating the character design.
 
2012-12-28 02:31:32 PM  

Now That's What I Call a Taco!: CantConfirmOrDeny:


Not being all that familiar with the NYC subway system, let me ask a question from the point of view of the "pushee".  If I find myself shoved in front of a train, is there enough room to lie down flat between the rails?  The so-called "third rail" isn't in the middle, right?

No, the third rail isn't in the middle. However, not every station/rail line in NYC is standardized. So, in some situations, you may be able to lie down flat and survive, but in others, there simply isn't enough room.

I'd rather be electrocuted quickly than splattered all over like in "Suicide Club."

 
2012-12-28 02:36:17 PM  

Zombie Neurosurgeon: ongbok: I sure the Chicago rail system is almost as big as New York's, so I wonder why New York has so many more deaths.

While the physical sizes are similar, 7.5x more people take the NYC subway than Chicago's each year.


Having lived in both cities, it's cute when Chicago thinks it's anywhere NEAR New York on things like this. Seriously Chitown, you have 6 lines. New York has 24 and counting.
 
2012-12-28 02:41:12 PM  

The One True TheDavid: Now That's What I Call a Taco!: CantConfirmOrDeny:


Not being all that familiar with the NYC subway system, let me ask a question from the point of view of the "pushee".  If I find myself shoved in front of a train, is there enough room to lie down flat between the rails?  The so-called "third rail" isn't in the middle, right?

No, the third rail isn't in the middle. However, not every station/rail line in NYC is standardized. So, in some situations, you may be able to lie down flat and survive, but in others, there simply isn't enough room.

I'd rather be electrocuted quickly than splattered all over like in "Suicide Club."


Hell of a choice to have to make though, eh?
 
2012-12-28 02:42:53 PM  

priapic_abandon: Was it an assault train?

[www.armchairgeneral.com image 850x430]


What does that train say? Please tell me it's something funny, like "Up Yours!"
 
2012-12-28 02:43:26 PM  

kindms: this is why you always stand in the center on the platform until the train pulls in. There is no need to be first


He who is first shall be last. DEAD last.
 
2012-12-28 02:51:07 PM  

ongbok: beefoe: I assumed that people being hit by subway trains was extremely rare, but according to New York's MTA, 147 people were struck by subway trains and 47 killed, just last year. Sounds like an inherently dangerous product to me.

That is odd. According to this article as of August there had only been 6 rail deaths in Chicago. and 9 in 2011, 10 deaths in 2010 and six deaths in 2009
And just about all of them have been contributed to people playing around on the tracks and getting electrocuted, suicide or drunks falling on the tracks.I sure the Chicago rail system is almost as big as New York's, so I wonder why New York has so many more deaths.


That's straight bullshiat.

I know several CTA operators and unless the jumper is at a major station or at rush(Jackson, Clark and Lake) it is rarely accurately reported or even reported They claim their bosses say that when reported the number of jumpers increases dramatically over the next few weeks. If it has to be reported they indicate it was accidental and report him in critical condition and never follow up on the death. The media in this town is bought and paid for.

I know with certainty there was a man killed by a train at the Kedzie Brown Line a few months ago (summer)and it never made the news... along with a police car that tried to go around the gate and got destroyed by a train going the other way. I know the operator on both and he took pictures with his phone bc he's a creepy ghoul. He says in his 15 years he's had at least one jumper a year and at least another accident involving injury (falling off platform, caught in door). He also has to call several times a month for assaults on his train and several times a week for assaults on platforms.

The city also doesn't report building jumpers for the same reason. If you follow the news you'd think one or two jump to their death each year... more like one a week. They just don't report it unless they land near an outdoor cafe.
 
2012-12-28 03:01:13 PM  
They should declare subway stations "Push Free Zones" and put up signs saying such.
 
2012-12-28 03:13:10 PM  
Common Sense Solution:

Dig a trench 6 foot deep below the tracks with a staircase.

Person is pushed onto tracks. Person walks over to staris and descends to avoid train.

EASY!!!
 
2012-12-28 03:15:55 PM  
www.simplifiedbuilding.com

Combine it with a sliding gate and problem solved.

Fortunately there's no organization howling about the right to railing-free subway platforms.

The difference between fixing this and fixing the firearm murder problem is illustrative as there is no industry which profits from having railing-free subway platforms.

Follow the money my pretties, follow the money.
 
2012-12-28 03:22:36 PM  
Mytch: Every subway platform I've been to in Seoul uses screens at the platform that open alongside the subway cars' doors. I don't know why we don't have them, and why there are no plans to install things like these when people using subways to murder people is easily preventable.

Because the MTA doesn't have unlimited resources and most of us would prefer stations get "when's the next train" clocks before doors that would be a nightmare to maintain, probably wouldn't integrate very easily with a 100+ year old system, and might save 3 lives a year.
 
2012-12-28 03:22:49 PM  
This is definition of a hero:

"On January 2, 2007, Autrey was waiting for a train at the 137th Street - City College subway station in Manhattan with his two young daughters. At around 12:45 p.m., he and two women noticed a young man, Cameron Hollopeter, having a seizure. Autrey borrowed a pen and used it to keep Hollopeter's jaw open. Following the seizure, Hollopeter stumbled from the platform, falling onto the tracks.

As Hollopeter lay on the tracks, Autrey saw the lights of an oncoming train. As one of the women held Autrey's daughters back away from the edge of the platform, Autrey dove onto the tracks. He thought he would be able to take Hollopeter off the tracks, but he realized there was not enough time to drag Hollopeter away. Instead, he protected Hollopeter by throwing himself over Hollopeter's body in a drainage trench between the tracks, where he held him down. Though the operator of the train applied the brakes, all but two cars still passed over them, close enough to leave grease on his cap.[3]

Autrey told The New York Times "I don't feel like I did something spectacular; I just saw someone who needed help. I did what I felt was right." [3] Wesley is a member of the LIUNA union, Local 79, and credits his training with having helped him make the split-second decision: "Since I do construction work with Local 79, we work in confined spaces a lot. So I looked, and my judgment was pretty right. The train did have enough room for me."[4]
 
2012-12-28 03:29:46 PM  
It just occurred to me that Superman is both faster than a speeding bullet AND more powerful than a locomotive.
 
2012-12-28 03:44:00 PM  

bingethinker: Time to ban subway trains

[i306.photobucket.com image 383x230]


Why? Because it's all Bush's fault and you're a racist.
 
2012-12-28 03:50:38 PM  
They need to be registered and regulated.

Better yet, just take away their tracks.
 
2012-12-28 03:51:28 PM  

JungleBoogie: This is definition of a hero:

"On January 2, 2007, Autrey was waiting for a train at the 137th Street - City College subway station in Manhattan with his two young daughters. At around 12:45 p.m., he and two women noticed a young man, Cameron Hollopeter, having a seizure. Autrey borrowed a pen and used it to keep Hollopeter's jaw open. Following the seizure, Hollopeter stumbled from the platform, falling onto the tracks.

As Hollopeter lay on the tracks, Autrey saw the lights of an oncoming train. As one of the women held Autrey's daughters back away from the edge of the platform, Autrey dove onto the tracks. He thought he would be able to take Hollopeter off the tracks, but he realized there was not enough time to drag Hollopeter away. Instead, he protected Hollopeter by throwing himself over Hollopeter's body in a drainage trench between the tracks, where he held him down. Though the operator of the train applied the brakes, all but two cars still passed over them, close enough to leave grease on his cap.[3]

Autrey told The New York Times "I don't feel like I did something spectacular; I just saw someone who needed help. I did what I felt was right." [3] Wesley is a member of the LIUNA union, Local 79, and credits his training with having helped him make the split-second decision: "Since I do construction work with Local 79, we work in confined spaces a lot. So I looked, and my judgment was pretty right. The train did have enough room for me."[4]


I'm surprised there was enough room in the drainage trench for the 2 of them and his enormous brass balls.
 
2012-12-28 03:54:04 PM  
But seriously. Did nobody watch the video in TFA?
 
2012-12-28 03:57:24 PM  
Known Pusher wanted for questioning

img51.imageshack.us
 
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