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(Stars and Stripes)   There are now more soldier suicides than combat deaths   (stripes.com) divider line 54
    More: Sad, soldier suicides, Army Reserve, Department of the Army, combat deaths, soldiers, suicides  
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7526 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Dec 2012 at 5:10 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
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Archived thread
2012-12-27 09:07:48 PM
9 votes:
It says something about how few combat deaths we have had.
2012-12-28 06:12:15 AM
7 votes:

taurusowner: albertalaska: Soldiering is a gang of people killing armed and unarmed people. Indisputable. Unacceptable. How much self respect can you have when you are part of a murderous gang? Warriors and police do not act by virtue of bravery but act with the knowledge of being aided by the strength of their group. There is no bravery in a gang. I have no respect for them . Cowardice is the word I use to describe this behavior. Notice this fact : People never fight one on one without an audience. (unless they are drunk)

Too obvious. 2/10


Too clueless. -3/10

Soldiers are hired killers. This is fact. Some of us accept this. Some don't.

It doesn't mean they aren't sometimes necessary, but pretending they are more than murderers does everybody an injustice, and is probably related to the increase in suicides. When you tell people they are heroes and then order them to act like villains, you get a disconnect.
2012-12-28 12:06:19 AM
7 votes:

Amos Quito: RedPhoenix122: One Bad Apple: Yeah, sadly this is actually the preferred norm.

I'd prefer they were tied at 0.


Now who can argue with that?


Halliburton?
2012-12-27 11:50:02 PM
7 votes:

One Bad Apple: Yeah, sadly this is actually the preferred norm.


I'd prefer they were tied at 0.
2012-12-27 11:46:21 PM
7 votes:
Warmongers won't care until it cuts into profits.
2012-12-28 05:20:19 AM
6 votes:

doyner: Yet I'm still waiting for the public to catch on to the fact that suicides are up due (in large part) to the increased rotation of personnel through war zones.


I would say it's not just being rotated through a war-zone, but being pulled away from their regular lives for a year at a time, multiple times over the span of a few years. It really makes actually living your life very difficult or even impossible for some. Being pulled away from you wife, girlfriend, work, school, friends, etc and being stuck in Afghanistan while everyone at home keeps living is very jarring. Missing the births of kids, older children being distant to you for being gone so much. Wife and girlfriends cheating and finding other people. Finding it much harder to pursue a real career type job or complete a degree in a reasonable amount of time. Deploying multiple times just farks your whole life up for pretty much the whole span you're in the military. You really just gotta be willing to put your life on hold and try to pick it back up again when you're all done. Some people can handle it. Some cant'.

I would be willing to be real money that most (75%+) of those suicides involved some form of spousal (wife/husband, girlfriend/boyfriend) difficulties at home.

It's not just the combat that gets to you. It's knowing that you have nothing to come home to that really tears the rug out from under your life.
2012-12-28 02:40:29 AM
6 votes:

vygramul: It says something about how few combat deaths we have had.


Indeed it does.  Yet I'm still waiting for the public to catch on to the fact that suicides are up due (in large part) to the increased rotation of personnel through war zones.  Yes, battlefield medicine is an enormous contributor to this metric, as it is also a great service to medicine in general.  But such statements tend, on the surface, to discount the other harsh realities of our current system.

But the public won't catch on....until we bring back the draft and make wars a matter of nation-wide responsibility.
2012-12-27 11:36:30 PM
5 votes:
So you mean to tell me that when we have numerous advances in combat medicine we have more casualties than fatalities?  And that when you use the military as a police force for another country that it tends to demoralize the people that signed up to defend the US constitution?  I'll be damned....

/hope we can get our men and women home soon
2012-12-28 05:31:00 AM
4 votes:
I'm wondering how many of these are actually relationship related. Heard stories about woman marries young military guy for benefits, guy gets sent oversees, woman cheats or relationship falls apart because of time and distance away, guy tries to off himself or comes back batshiat crazy with guns.
2012-12-28 12:05:33 AM
4 votes:

RedPhoenix122: One Bad Apple: Yeah, sadly this is actually the preferred norm.

I'd prefer they were tied at 0.



Now who can argue with that?
2012-12-28 06:47:06 AM
3 votes:

Bomb Head Mohammed: the idea that we need to "spend more money" on soldiers is laughable


Tell that to a veteran who has no place to live.
2012-12-28 06:30:58 AM
3 votes:
way south: Wars cause the rates for violence, crime, and abuse to increase. It wouldn't be surprising to see suicide and a number of other bad things on that list.
...But the military has to go to war, that is its primary purpose. Most wars are political, chosen by Congress.

Seems to me the politicians are on the hook for this one.
Soldiers need more support after the state is done chewing them up and spitting them out. Congress controls the purse strings.

I'm sorry, but no.

Enough is enough.

There is a myth in the USA that somehow US soldiers are not looked after. In a small number of cases, this is true--I wholehartedly support the notion that soldiers should get complete medical and psychological assistance needed to 'make them whole' to the extent possible after time spent in harm's way.

However, the general idea that in the USA soldiers are somehow 'forgotten' or underfunded is absolute and total nonsense. What we have forgotten is that soldiers are a diverse bunch, and like every diverse bunch there are bound to be all manner of situations and people. Enlisted personnel in particular often come from difficult circumstances and, frankly, low educational achievement coming in, and then we somehow expect that they're entitled to $80,000 middle management jobs when they come out. Bollocks.

it has been estimated that the total compensation of even the lowliest US soldier is now in excess of $100,00 per year equivalent when you consider

- modest pay
- housing benefits
- health benefits
- job training benefits
- mortgage preferences and benefits
- retirement / pension benefits
- job preference benefits, occasionally written into law
- subsidized "other stuff" benefits from the government (insurance, etc)
- subsidized benefits from non-government sources
- tax benefits

the idea that we need to "spend more money" on soldiers is laughable. our soliders in WW2 accomplished far more for far, far less. They also didn't expect a few enlisted years to mean that they are entitled to live on those laurels for the rest of their lives. want proof? have a look at the LIFETIME medical benefits now offered to some 18 year old who goes to afghanistan, serves for two years total, and never leaves the base (and, as one who has been to afghanistan, let me be the first to say that for a certain percentage of people, that is not that uncommon). Such a person may well end up consuming several million dollars of benefit over their lifetime, but if you dare point out this obvius staggering inefficiency, you Hate America and are Worse Than Hitler.

(be sure to ask me also about the sham that is the 9/11 compensation fund, especially "9/11 syndrome")

it's easy to blame congress and "anonymous suits." it's easy to demand "more money" as if the fact that we spend in inflation-adjusted terms far more now on individual soldiers than any other arms ever has in the history of the world. it's harder to look at what's really going on and make hard choices.

Before you flame me, have a viewing of the recent "Music of War" movie about soldiers in iraq. Look at them and you'll come to realize that these are very ordinary people who both as a matter of pragmatism (they needed a job) and patriotism (in some cases) answered the country's call. They serve honorably, but it's a bit much to expect them to come out of there in some idealized way that a lot of you expect them to.

Yes, suicides are a problem Access to physical and mental health resources is a must. But, those are already quite widespread--more than the knee jerk commenters here might suspect. But the answer is not just "let's just have another BS litmus test of Real Americannness (tm) based on whether you support throwing an unlimited number of resources towards a ridiculously overglorified and unrealistic caricature of the American soldier."
2012-12-28 06:04:24 AM
3 votes:

way south: Wars cause the rates for violence, crime, and abuse to increase. It wouldn't be surprising to see suicide and a number of other bad things on that list.
...But the military has to go to war, that is its primary purpose. Most wars are political, chosen by Congress.

Seems to me the politicians are on the hook for this one.
Soldiers need more support after the state is done chewing them up and spitting them out. Congress controls the purse strings.


The "boys in suits" (all sides, left and right, friend and enemy) are too busy with their own comfortable and incredibly luxurious lifestyles to even imagine how much pain their greed. stubbornness and penile insecurities inflict upon the people they are supposedly "serving" (serving? what a farkin' JOKE) yet we blindly honor these people and treat them like they are farkin' deities.

Heads of stone.
2012-12-27 11:55:40 PM
3 votes:

RedPhoenix122: One Bad Apple: Yeah, sadly this is actually the preferred norm.

I'd prefer they were tied at 0.

2012-12-28 07:21:56 AM
2 votes:

Bomb Head Mohammed: way south: Wars cause the rates for violence, crime, and abuse to increase. It wouldn't be surprising to see suicide and a number of other bad things on that list.
...But the military has to go to war, that is its primary purpose. Most wars are political, chosen by Congress.

Seems to me the politicians are on the hook for this one.
Soldiers need more support after the state is done chewing them up and spitting them out. Congress controls the purse strings.

I'm sorry, but no.

Enough is enough.

There is a myth in the USA that somehow US soldiers are not looked after. In a small number of cases, this is true--I wholehartedly support the notion that soldiers should get complete medical and psychological assistance needed to 'make them whole' to the extent possible after time spent in harm's way.

However, the general idea that in the USA soldiers are somehow 'forgotten' or underfunded is absolute and total nonsense. What we have forgotten is that soldiers are a diverse bunch, and like every diverse bunch there are bound to be all manner of situations and people. Enlisted personnel in particular often come from difficult circumstances and, frankly, low educational achievement coming in, and then we somehow expect that they're entitled to $80,000 middle management jobs when they come out. Bollocks.

it has been estimated that the total compensation of even the lowliest US soldier is now in excess of $100,00 per year equivalent when you consider

- modest pay
- housing benefits
- health benefits
- job training benefits
- mortgage preferences and benefits
- retirement / pension benefits
- job preference benefits, occasionally written into law
- subsidized "other stuff" benefits from the government (insurance, etc)
- subsidized benefits from non-government sources
- tax benefits

the idea that we need to "spend more money" on soldiers is laughable. our soliders in WW2 accomplished far more for far, far less. They also didn't expect a few enlisted years to mean tha ...


I am a 7-year Navy vet and have never seen anyone else make these points (other than me). "Veteran" has become some kind of lifetime honor tag to be milked at every opportunity, when it was simply a job to most of us that were in it. Man, it's refreshing to see another human being who truly understands the actual dynamic here.
2012-12-28 07:12:15 AM
2 votes:
Let me make two nifty points here. One for real, the other from a novel...


1. A friend of mine was in Iraq at the onset of the war. He was initially trained as a navigator on a plane. But that soon turned into "spot targets on the ground for us to blow the fark up." We were talking one day, and he was visibly shaken by the whole thing because, he would call in the coordinates of a target, and a few seconds later, everyone there was dead. "This isn't a farking video game, man. I don't know how many people I sentenced to death."

2. Lord of the Rings. At one point Faramir looks down at a dead soldier that had just fallen off an oliphant. (Here I must paraphrase, as I don't remember the exact quote) "What made this person leave their home and come here to fight? Is this person inherently evil? Does he have a family that is awaiting his return?"


Now the point here is, what the bloody hell are we still doing in Iraq and Afghanistan?! The primary objectives (useless as they were), were accomplished. We should never have been there to start with. And no one has provided any sort of reasonable explanation as to WHY we are still there now - and we can't find enough money to prevent economic collapse at the end of this year.

There's some good rambling for ya... That was like throwing 15 balls in the air in order that someone might catch just one of them.
2012-12-28 06:49:36 AM
2 votes:

ghare: Same reason we have so many homeless vets on the street-


Actually a lot of them have no issues before service, after is another issue.
2012-12-28 06:13:20 AM
2 votes:
Death rates from suicide for the military-age population who AREN'T in uniform are actually higher than for service members. So there's that.
2012-12-28 05:22:16 AM
2 votes:
Suicides have been pretty bad for some years now, both with the active troops and even the veterans after they get out. For some reason this issue get little attention, yet things like sexual assaults make headline news.
2012-12-28 12:23:27 AM
2 votes:
Who would have thought joining up while the US was engaged in a pointless war was a good idea?
2012-12-28 10:43:14 AM
1 votes:

PonceAlyosha: pciszek: Flakeloaf: George Carlin had a great bit on this. While certainly not the only reason, calling "shell shock" by increasingly clinical names dehumanizes the suffering. I know guys with operational exhaustion and I know guys with farking shell shock and I can promise you plain as day they are not the same frogdamned thing.

Shell shock in the sense of temporary paralysis may have an actual physiological cause: Apparently your adrenaline glands are always secreting a small amount of adrenaline--normal operating conditions for the human body include a small amount of adrenaline. In combat, someone might be running on adrenaline for an extended period of time to the point where they use up the available supply, and for the first time in their lives have almost no adrenaline in their bloodstream. The fight/flight reflex might not work without it. To confuse things, this gets called "shell shock" and so does PTSD, and of course the same people are at risk for both of these conditions.

Actually, both work on the same underlying biological principle and is thus the same disorder, it's just the stimulus the nervous system attunes to that is different. So a WWI soldier in the trenches might have heightened response to loud noises that have been associated with the sound of artillery hence "shell shock", while a modern soldier might not be able to healthily interface with social situations if they've been in a prolonged asymmetrical situation like the one wars we're currently fighting where anyone can be an aggressor.


Potentially yes and no. There are multiple possible interactions at play. For the temporary paralysis, which in many cases may be peritraumatic dissociation, there is the element of a potential blast injury causing a mild traumatic brain injury (mTBI). In short, your bell gets rung, and you don't know which way is up. The time for this loss of memory/action is dependent on the specific blast injury mechanism, or the overall severity of the injury. Another possible factor is the overwhelming shock to the system, in which the autonomic nervous system is trying to figure out how to respond. There's been some work focusing on the vagal system by Porges, in which he theorizes that in cases where there is no injury and the individual freezes in response to stress, there is an activation of the dorsal vagal complex in which the reverts to a evolutionarily older branch of the vagus. This results in a survival mechanism which cause a "freeze" in order to conserve resources.

As for the heightened response to specific triggers, that plain old hypervigilance. It's a vicious cycle. The individual learns that specific triggers like loud noises or sudden movements indicate danger. Works great in a combat environment. However, as the response becomes more frequent, that response not only gets wired in, it also can become more generalized. So while in a combat context it's very helpful, it can be problematic if say, a car backfires in a non-threatening environment. The individual still reacts, further wiring in that response. Couple this with a combat cognitive schema that the world is a dangerous place, the response continues. It's a PITA to unlearn what you have learned, especially if you have experiential evidence that it works. It's similar to your example of seeing anyone can be an aggressor. A lot of my clients repeatedly report that civilians can't be trusted. They've learned that the only people you can trust are either in your unit, or have shared a similar combat experience.
2012-12-28 10:18:24 AM
1 votes:

bakarocket: It's funny. Whenever people can't respond with logical responses, they resort to calling people "troll".

I wonder if it's more comforting to just ignore those ideas that challenge one's intellect. I guess I'll never know


You are either a troll or too stupid to understand the definition of "murderer".


Tat'dGreaser: liam76: So you want to change yoru claim from the story is "complete fabrication bullsh*t" to the stroy has changed?

You can't take a story from 2007 and act like it's fact right now


He, nor I acted like it was a fact "right now". Just mentioned that we heard about it.

And the fact is how the army trerats it is still a problem. "Vets are telling me that if you fill the form out truthfully and you want to be a career soldier, your career is over."
2012-12-28 10:03:53 AM
1 votes:

Flakeloaf: I'm an Egyptian!: Flakeloaf: Schroedinger's Glory Hole: Kygz: If the Senior Non-Coms would quit farking with the juniors all the time with the chicken shiat, maybe we could get these numbers down a little bit.

At least 30% of suicides are directly related to demands to blouse boots.

More like "my old boss was a barely-literate, inhuman farkwad whose inability to unerstadn my job in no way impaired his ability to criticize it or reprioritize my life to revolve around meaningless bullshiat, so that's exactly how I'm going to treat you. Now go rewrite our entire unit SOP manual, I want to look good this APS."

There's an academic term for this type of behavior. If you read historian Paul Fussell's work on the life of the average soldier in WWII, Wartime, he devotes an entire chapter to this. The chapter is called "Chickenshiat."

Sounds like a fun read. Thanks!


Here's a copy, for the edutainment of the thread.
2012-12-28 09:35:58 AM
1 votes:

Ivandrago: Military suicide CSB/

In mid 2006 I was deployed and living at FOB Rustimiyah in southeastern Baghdad. The mortars and rockets had been raining on us pretty frequently but it never really caused much stress to me. It was all the other BS that the Army still made us do that was stressful. Other guys felt the same way. A SPC from 2nd platoon was on patrol, took off his night vision and placed it on the roof of his humvee. He forgot they were there when the truck rolled out and the night vision rolled off the roof and into the mud. The missing night vision was discovered during one of the 5-times-a-day sensitive item checks later that evening. Because no one loses anything in the Army, he said someone stole them. Why someone would steal them is beyond me, we all had a set, but that's what he told command. An unholy shiatstorm ensued. We had a huge meeting with with the BN CSM who pleaded (unusual) for us to return the stolen night vision, the BN CO ordered all A Co. Soldiers to march around the base in formation singing cadence (nothing goes better with random rocket attacks like large groups of men walking together shouting loudly their location), we were stripped of all entertainment like laptops, dvd players, ipods, and even books. We were only allowed to have pen, paper and bibles. The night vision never turned up. This went on for two weeks. When eventually it came out that he had actually lost them out in sector and they were stolen, we gave that man hell. We felt it was our job. Two months later he killed himself in a portable toilet. His close friends say it was home problems and not us, but I couldn't help feeling some measure of responsibility. I also was the one who found the body only a few minutes after he did it. It's one of those things that messed me up from the tour. But I always availed myself of the mental health facilities.
I faced down the stigma because I didn't care what others would think. I understood that the things I had experienced there we ...


Not to blame the victim because nobody deserves to be bullied into suicide, but the man lost a piece of mission-essential kit that would be extremely useful to an enemy, bladed his own unit to cover his own farkup and then stood there with his thumbs in his mouth while the old man made his buddies eat shiat for something he knew they didn't do? I can't say I'd punch him in the balls while he slept but I certainly wouldn't sit with the guy at lunch either.

I didn't know the man or you but his death was not your fault, in my internet opinion. The guy did something that would've attracted scorn in any social circle and you were right to shun him; if you'd known he was on the edge I sincerely doubt you'd have pushed him an inch farther. Good on you for getting help and fark all the hoorah blowhards who have a problem with you doing what you need to do to ensure your survivability during your service and afterward. You have to do what's best for you and if that ends your watch then fine, there are plenty of young men behind you ready to step up and lots of old ones at the other end who would rather lead you to a place of honour than carry your casket to one. My username's a gmail address if you wanna chat.

Good on you for
2012-12-28 09:27:04 AM
1 votes:
Military suicide CSB/

In mid 2006 I was deployed and living at FOB Rustimiyah in southeastern Baghdad. The mortars and rockets had been raining on us pretty frequently but it never really caused much stress to me. It was all the other BS that the Army still made us do that was stressful. Other guys felt the same way. A SPC from 2nd platoon was on patrol, took off his night vision and placed it on the roof of his humvee. He forgot they were there when the truck rolled out and the night vision rolled off the roof and into the mud. The missing night vision was discovered during one of the 5-times-a-day sensitive item checks later that evening. Because no one loses anything in the Army, he said someone stole them. Why someone would steal them is beyond me, we all had a set, but that's what he told command. An unholy shiatstorm ensued. We had a huge meeting with with the BN CSM who pleaded (unusual) for us to return the stolen night vision, the BN CO ordered all A Co. Soldiers to march around the base in formation singing cadence (nothing goes better with random rocket attacks like large groups of men walking together shouting loudly their location), we were stripped of all entertainment like laptops, dvd players, ipods, and even books. We were only allowed to have pen, paper and bibles. The night vision never turned up. This went on for two weeks. When eventually it came out that he had actually lost them out in sector and they were stolen, we gave that man hell. We felt it was our job. Two months later he killed himself in a portable toilet. His close friends say it was home problems and not us, but I couldn't help feeling some measure of responsibility. I also was the one who found the body only a few minutes after he did it. It's one of those things that messed me up from the tour. But I always availed myself of the mental health facilities.
I faced down the stigma because I didn't care what others would think. I understood that the things I had experienced there were not normal and that mental health can be just as important as physical health. I caught hell from my COC because every Friday for a few months I had a doctor's appointment, but it helped. I had studied WWII in college and learned that there was virtually no mental health apparatus available to those guys and the problems that caused. I knew I didn't want to wake up and see what I saw every day for the rest of my life. I knew that I didn't want to feel responsible for what I had or hadn't done. I needed the reassurance that comes with that help.
The biggest obstacle to getting help in the military is the COC. Even at a time when we had little to do in garrison other than clean out equipment from the tour, I was seen as a shammer who was trying to get out of work. Oftentimes when you tell your COC what it is exactly bothering you, you end up with a game of one-upmanship, of "I've seen worse and I'm OK, you're just shamming." All the stuff in this thread about shaming the individual is true as well. Had he said he was suicidal, he would have been ostracized, both purposefully and accidentally. He may have been taken from the unit and his friends, he would have been given a road guard vest and had his weapon taken away. Everyone on the FOB would have known what he was. It can't help. I guess I'm rambling at this point.

/End CSB
2012-12-28 09:09:57 AM
1 votes:

gadian: I find it amusing that today we find 12 month tours ridiculous when in not too distant history one went to war until the war was over or they were killed / nearly killed.

There are systems in place for suicidal soldiers, but soldiers are too ashamed to use the systems because it looks bad on their record, or to their superiors, or to their families, or to themselves. Fix the macho attitudes, fix the "mental health" stamp of death on military hospital documents and you'll start to fix your soldiers. However, one might suppose part of the problem lies in the fact that more soldiers are living from injuries that should have killed them, would have twenty years ago. Sure, you're keeping their brains active, but are you saving their lives?


Two things. First, those times when you would fight until the war is over has a different level of OPTEMPO. As a for instance, the average line company in WWII would serve 1 month in active combat, with another month or two for consolidation and reorganization off the line (some specific engagements notwithstanding). In addition, there was a helluva lot more down time. Going back even earlier to say, the Civil War, you'd have a engagement that lasted for at most, 3-4 days, then have down time. To say nothing of the fact that nighttime was down time for both sides. That's changed. As an example, the Army's 12 month deployment. You get at most, 2 weeks and maybe three days out of the combat environment. The rest of the time, it's game on. There are no lines, there is no respite. You are in a combat environment 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. That's including day missions, night missions (due to technology, we fight more at night compared to wars past). If you're lucky, you might get a day off every two weeks. The rest of that is combat operations. Hell, even Fobbits are at risk from suicide bombers and mortar and rocket fire. Couple that with the uncertainty of who the enemy is, and you have a recipe for higher baseline levels of stress.

This does a number on your autonomic nervous system. When you engage the sympathetic nervous system (aka fight or flight) on such a regular basis, it increases the allostatic load, decreasing the ability to recover from stressors. In short, the internal "thermostat" if you will, gets reset to operate at higher levels of adrenaline. This is without the addition of traumatic events (i.e. getting IED'd, firefights, etc.) Even still, when individuals were in prior wars, the effects of combat were still evident, we just didn't speak of them the way we do now. It was called "nostalgia" or "soldier's heart" or "shell shock" or "battle fatigue." The signs and symptoms were all there, it was just considered a moral failing, one that wasn't discussed in polite conversation. That's why every one has the story of the grandfather, father, or uncle that came back from war and started drinking heavily, or beating their kids, or cheating on spouses. It was a dirty family secret.

As for the services available, there is some improvement that can be made, as there always is. I will give credit to the military, the services available to returning service members since the beginnings of Iraq and Afghanistan have increased immeasurably. Granted, many of the briefings are of a more "check the block" affair, and the stigma within the military is still high. It's decreasing, but it's still there. The military culture of "suck it up and drive on" plays a big part. One thing people forget about this mentality is it's only useful when there is a definitive end in sight. Without that end, it's only a load of self-abuse. To fix this, there has to be a cultural shift. (As way of disclosure, I'm a Vet and also work as a counselor for veterans with PTSD and other readjustment difficulties. Take that as you will). One of the biggest ways I find making counseling more palatable is I refer to it as training. It's simple: we were trained before deployment, we were trained during deployment, and sometimes we need training to retune our skills to return home.
2012-12-28 08:44:16 AM
1 votes:
Total US Services people Active & Reserve - 3,000,000
Suicides for 2012 - 303, Roughly 1 per 10,000

US Population - 311,000,000
Suicides for 2010 - 38,000, Roughly 1 per 8,000
2012-12-28 08:26:39 AM
1 votes:

StoPPeRmobile: Let's try preventing the slaughter of 30,000 - 50,000 lives a year on the roads.


In 22 of the last 30 years, the rate of traffic fatalities has dropped.  We haven't had a lower rate of traffic fatalities since World War 1.  Hell, the sheer number of fatalities has dropped 25% even without factoring in population over the last 10 years.  There haven't been 50,000 traffic deaths in the US since 1980, for Christ's sake.

TL;DR:  What the hell are you talking about?

i.imgur.com
2012-12-28 08:07:38 AM
1 votes:

natas6.0: but hey, you voted in the guys who keep sending them
the blame is also on you.


Please to explain how the holy f*ck you know who I voted for.
2012-12-28 07:42:23 AM
1 votes:
Perhaps offering impoverished kids the chance to go to college if they put their lives on the line for a pointless war may not be the most ethical standard.  When they get in they often regret it.
2012-12-28 07:38:04 AM
1 votes:
I find it amusing that today we find 12 month tours ridiculous when in not too distant history one went to war until the war was over or they were killed / nearly killed.

There are systems in place for suicidal soldiers, but soldiers are too ashamed to use the systems because it looks bad on their record, or to their superiors, or to their families, or to themselves. Fix the macho attitudes, fix the "mental health" stamp of death on military hospital documents and you'll start to fix your soldiers. However, one might suppose part of the problem lies in the fact that more soldiers are living from injuries that should have killed them, would have twenty years ago. Sure, you're keeping their brains active, but are you saving their lives?
2012-12-28 07:36:42 AM
1 votes:
These numbers are really, really under-reported.

Anything that the military can do to call a suicide something else, they will.

Not included, too, are suicide by drug/alcohol, suicide by maniacal vehicle crashes, suicide by cop, etc.

Further, nobody really has a handle on everything that these guys are dosed with while on active duty. We have a fine history of doping our guys up with amphetamines and other drugs as well as using them as test subjects for vaccines and other medicines.

Providing mental health care to those coming back is something of a nightmare for the providers.

Another thing...what's the difference between the number of tours for the average soldier during Viet Nam vs. Afghanistan/Iraq? I think the difference is outrageous.

Until those who make war fight wars themselves, there's not going to be an end. It's tragic and I cannot get over the idea that it's being done in my name with my resources.
2012-12-28 07:30:12 AM
1 votes:

taurusowner: Hahahahahahaha. The Army's suicide programs are utterly worthless. They can put out as many mandatory PowerPoints and ACE cards as they want, but all of the programs come down to one thing: if you're suicidal or feel someone else is, tell you/their chain of command.

And that doesn't do SHIAT. They'll pull the soldier off missions, take his weapons, stick him on DFAC duty and generally make him look like a crazy pussy in front of his whole unit.


That's a leadership problem man. That's f*cking NCOs not doing their goddamn jobs.
2012-12-28 07:28:27 AM
1 votes:

Optimus Primate: I am a 7-year Navy vet and have never seen anyone else make these points (other than me). "Veteran" has become some kind of lifetime honor tag to be milked at every opportunity, when it was simply a job to most of us that were in it. Man, it's refreshing to see another human being who truly understands the actual dynamic here.


I love my fellow Reservists who barely show up for drill but their Facebook is plastered with military themes and pictures about how proud they are to serve, especially when Applebee's is having a military discount. Show up and pass a PT test? F*ck no.

I've been in for over a decade but never deployed. It's the greatest regret I'll have for the rest of my life. You can keep your apple pie, I just like being a soldier.
2012-12-28 07:28:01 AM
1 votes:

Tat'dGreaser: I will give it to the Army, they finally got their head out of their collective asses and came up with a comprehensive program on dealing with the mental health side of combat. They weren't prepared for these wars on that end. We now have multiple systems set up to deal with soldiers who are suicidal. We are trained monthly on these procedures.


Hahahahahahaha. The Army's suicide programs are utterly worthless. They can put out as many mandatory PowerPoints and ACE cards as they want, but all of the programs come down to one thing: if you're suicidal or feel someone else is, tell you/their chain of command.

And that doesn't do SHIAT. They'll pull the soldier off missions, take his weapons, stick him on DFAC duty and generally make him look like a crazy pussy in front of his whole unit. He'll have to attend a bunch of extra training and see the chaplain for X amount of weeks. He'll get red-flagged at de-mob and held over, put on medications, possibly have his clearance yanked or a mandatory MOS reclass. And all of this goes on his record so if he wants to get a job that's more than assistant manager at McDonalds, the employer will know all about it and also think he's crazy. And if he's in the Guard, he'd better switch units when he gets back because he'll the "the crazy guy" for the rest of time in the unit he's in.

Does any of that actually help a soldier who thinks his life is falling apart. Does ostracizing a soldier in front of his peers help him when he already feels alone? Does destroying his chances at a lot of good jobs in the future actually help when he thinks he has nothing positive to look forward to?

Of course not. And that's why none of the Army's programs work, and never will until they change those things. Feeling suicidal is a symptom caused by real negative changes in someone's life. It's the thing you turn to when you feel like real things in your life are going bad. Job loss, spousal problems, a buddy who's KIA, financial issues, nothing to come home to, etc. You can tell by the fact that the most suicides happen a few weeks into a deployment...and a few weeks before and after they go home. Soldiers who either know they have nothing to come home to right before they go back to the US, or soldiers who find their personal lives in a mess when they do come home (mainly due to cheating significant others, financial stress, job loss).

You can't really stop a suicide until you fix the bad stuff that lead to the person feeling that way. That's not something the Army wants to, or is probably even capable of, dealing with. The Army does what's best for the Army. And that makes sense in a lot of ways. We want a military full of functioning soldiers. But for the individual soldier, that often means the will just do what it can to minimize your impact on others and the mission, not actually help you. Take your weapons away and put you on TOC/DFAC duty so that you can be watched and aren't responsible for missions. Never mind that it makes you look like a pussy. Medicate that shiat out of you and push you out the door ASAP so that you become someone elses problem stateside. They don't want to fix the problem, they just want it gone. And that means they just want you gone.

Every approach I've seen to suicide prevention the Army has tried in the past 7 years is laughable. It's so obvious to see through them if you're at all familiar with people who have actually been suicidal, what sort of things brought it upon them, and what sort of things would actually help. And nothing the Army does actually helps. Their goal is to keep you alive and high on meds long enough to get medical boarded out of the military. That's it.
2012-12-28 07:22:01 AM
1 votes:

durbnpoisn: Let me make two nifty points here. One for real, the other from a novel...


1. A friend of mine was in Iraq at the onset of the war. He was initially trained as a navigator on a plane. But that soon turned into "spot targets on the ground for us to blow the fark up." We were talking one day, and he was visibly shaken by the whole thing because, he would call in the coordinates of a target, and a few seconds later, everyone there was dead. "This isn't a farking video game, man. I don't know how many people I sentenced to death."

2. Lord of the Rings. At one point Faramir looks down at a dead soldier that had just fallen off an oliphant. (Here I must paraphrase, as I don't remember the exact quote) "What made this person leave their home and come here to fight? Is this person inherently evil? Does he have a family that is awaiting his return?"


Now the point here is, what the bloody hell are we still doing in Iraq and Afghanistan?! The primary objectives (useless as they were), were accomplished. We should never have been there to start with. And no one has provided any sort of reasonable explanation as to WHY we are still there now - and we can't find enough money to prevent economic collapse at the end of this year.

There's some good rambling for ya... That was like throwing 15 balls in the air in order that someone might catch just one of them.



And yet, it was a good and thoughtful post.
2012-12-28 07:07:27 AM
1 votes:
I will give it to the Army, they finally got their head out of their collective asses and came up with a comprehensive program on dealing with the mental health side of combat. They weren't prepared for these wars on that end. We now have multiple systems set up to deal with soldiers who are suicidal. We are trained monthly on these procedures.

The real issue? 12+ month tours is f*cking ridiculous. I don't care how tough you are, a couple of these could break you. If you decide to be a career soldier, you're going to see combat tours multiple times for a year at a pop. The Marines have a way better system of shorter tours. Soldiers sometimes like being soldiers, they want to stay in as a lifer but these multiple year long tours are killing them. Literally.
2012-12-28 07:03:45 AM
1 votes:

Jim_Callahan: Only about 500 total deaths in a year including suicides, with an active war going on.


I find it strange (amusing?) that they didn't call Korea or Viet Nam a war but they call these two occupations wars. But then they call everything wars now. Just like they call every act of violence terrorism. It's sensational!
2012-12-28 06:53:34 AM
1 votes:

WhyteRaven74: ghare: Same reason we have so many homeless vets on the street-

Actually a lot of them have no issues before service, after is another issue.


citation? I mean, seriously. How do you know this?
2012-12-28 06:51:56 AM
1 votes:
Suicide centers are needed. Just make it easy, so it doesn't involve a school or theater. If you want to feel better, we'll even charge you a small fee for your offing. Just get off this ride if you don't like it.
2012-12-28 06:48:02 AM
1 votes:

Kevin72: AverageAmericanGuy: I HATE IT WHN EPEOLPLE MIGIGN THE farkING TRRRPOTS

You're making more sense than usual today.


That's JUST what a migigner would say.

Please think of the trrrpots.
2012-12-28 06:44:41 AM
1 votes:

AverageAmericanGuy: I HATE IT WHN EPEOLPLE MIGIGN THE farkING TRRRPOTS


You're making more sense than usual today.
2012-12-28 06:42:43 AM
1 votes:

mbillips: Oh, look, it's a baby troll. How adorable! Don't scare it, and somebody get a towel to wipe the drool off its bib.


Fortunately for most of the posters on the internet, trolling is not defined as "disagreeing with other people".

When people are taught to believe in the sanctity of life and in a religion that despises the concept of murder, they will have issues when they are told to kill other people.
2012-12-28 06:34:13 AM
1 votes:
"Anyone DUMB ENOUGH.... to join the military...."
-Bill Hicks

Maybe a lot of effed-in-the-head people join the military? Maybe they'd be topping themselves no matter what job they chose?


99% of Bill Hicks' [so called] stand up comedy involved YELLING AT IMAGINARY people.

YELLING how his Libtard dove politics were so completely awesome, while his Libtard audience laughed along and mocked the imaginary Republicans that Bill was yelling at.

Fans of Left wing [so called] comedy are an xXtra special kind of self righteous twat.


I hope I've offended everyone.
2012-12-28 06:30:44 AM
1 votes:
Big supporter of suicide
not changing my tune because they're soldiers

I am glad that fewer americans are dying overseas for politics
but hey, you voted in the guys who keep sending them
the blame is also on you
2012-12-28 05:41:15 AM
1 votes:
One almost has to wonder if these suicides might be getting a little help.
2012-12-28 05:33:09 AM
1 votes:
Soldiering is a gang of people killing armed and unarmed people. Indisputable. Unacceptable. How much self respect can you have when you are part of a murderous gang? Warriors and police do not act by virtue of bravery but act with the knowledge of being aided by the strength of their group. There is no bravery in a gang. I have no respect for them . Cowardice is the word I use to describe this behavior. Notice this fact : People never fight one on one without an audience. (unless they are drunk)
2012-12-28 03:01:37 AM
1 votes:
Is the percentage of suicides up for all military? For combat troops? For civillians?
2012-12-28 01:14:29 AM
1 votes:
It's so terribly sad. It f*cking sucks.
2012-12-28 12:35:56 AM
1 votes:
:(

and that's all I have to say about that.
2012-12-27 11:41:54 PM
1 votes:

queezyweezel: So you mean to tell me that when we have numerous advances in combat medicine we have more casualties than fatalities?  And that when you use the military as a police force for another country that it tends to demoralize the people that signed up to defend the US constitution?  I'll be damned....

/hope we can get our men and women home soon



Apparently those in charge are achieving their goals, otherwise, they'd quit.

Logically.

No?
2012-12-27 11:39:14 PM
1 votes:

Runs_With_Scissors_:


True, but suicide numbers are way up.


Then we must do all we can to ramp up deaths from DUIs until they are the #1 cause
2012-12-27 09:32:18 PM
1 votes:

One Bad Apple: Yeah, sadly this is actually the preferred norm.


True, but suicide numbers are way up.
2012-12-27 09:14:07 PM
1 votes:
Yeah, sadly this is actually the preferred norm.
 
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