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(Stars and Stripes)   There are now more soldier suicides than combat deaths   (stripes.com) divider line 231
    More: Sad, soldier suicides, Army Reserve, Department of the Army, combat deaths, soldiers, suicides  
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7524 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Dec 2012 at 5:10 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-28 09:15:27 AM

Tat'dGreaser: liam76: As in untrue, or it is shiat that they are doing this?

Because it sounds exactly like the NPR story on traumatic brain injuries and the army denying that they were a real thing.

As in complete fabrication bullsh*t


Ok

The army provided statistics back it up.

The way the govt treats PTSD and people with other "behavioral broblems" proves there is incentive to do this.

Not sure why you think it is so far fetched.
 
2012-12-28 09:16:32 AM
If the Senior Non-Coms would quit farking with the juniors all the time with the chicken shiat, maybe we could get these numbers down a little bit.
 
2012-12-28 09:17:48 AM

liam76: Tat'dGreaser: liam76: As in untrue, or it is shiat that they are doing this?

Because it sounds exactly like the NPR story on traumatic brain injuries and the army denying that they were a real thing.

As in complete fabrication bullsh*t

Ok

The army provided statistics back it up.

The way the govt treats PTSD and people with other "behavioral broblems" proves there is incentive to do this.

Not sure why you think it is so far fetched.


BTW the story was from 07 and they have done work to fix it, but largely because shiat like this was getting reported.
 
2012-12-28 09:18:29 AM

Kygz: If the Senior Non-Coms would quit farking with the juniors all the time with the chicken shiat, maybe we could get these numbers down a little bit.


At least 30% of suicides are directly related to demands to blouse boots.
 
2012-12-28 09:18:56 AM

mbillips: bakarocket: taurusowner: albertalaska: Soldiering is a gang of people killing armed and unarmed people. Indisputable. Unacceptable. How much self respect can you have when you are part of a murderous gang? Warriors and police do not act by virtue of bravery but act with the knowledge of being aided by the strength of their group. There is no bravery in a gang. I have no respect for them . Cowardice is the word I use to describe this behavior. Notice this fact : People never fight one on one without an audience. (unless they are drunk)

Too obvious. 2/10

Too clueless. -3/10

Soldiers are hired killers. This is fact. Some of us accept this. Some don't.

It doesn't mean they aren't sometimes necessary, but pretending they are more than murderers does everybody an injustice, and is probably related to the increase in suicides. When you tell people they are heroes and then order them to act like villains, you get a disconnect.

Oh, look, it's a baby troll. How adorable! Don't scare it, and somebody get a towel to wipe the drool off its bib.


Why would you wipe the drool off its bib? That's kinda what the bib is for.
 
2012-12-28 09:19:23 AM

pciszek: namatad: 1-10 years after leaving, the taliban will be right back in place.

The Taliban never left, they are in place now. Who do you think has been maiming and disfiguring all those schoolgirls?


I meant actually back in place controlling the country like they were before we got there.
 
2012-12-28 09:19:31 AM
cdn.motinetwork.net
 
2012-12-28 09:20:24 AM

natas6.0: BabwaWhiner
please explain how you know who I voted for

I don't need to know whick rich politician you gave authority to,
you gave it to one of the same idiots you give it to everytime, pinky.
This is how it works
your uninformed arse chooses the most charismatic politician running for office
or, you just listen to what your friends do
those people are responsible for sending our soldiers (sailors etc) into harm's way
so you bear part of the responsibility
I know...it's hard for you to fathom


Wow. It must be very hard to be the only person in the world who knows the truth. Only you have a solid grasp on cause and effect, but yet can't make other people see it.

I'll bet you have impeccable taste in the arts, and are extremely frustrated by the state of the film, music and literature industries, too.
 
2012-12-28 09:20:37 AM

Zeb Hesselgresser: Total US Services people Active & Reserve - 3,000,000
Suicides for 2012 - 303, Roughly 1 per 10,000

US Population - 311,000,000
Suicides for 2010 - 38,000, Roughly 1 per 8,000


THANK YOU for pointing out the most important fact.
and pissing me off by pointing out that they are LOWER than genpop ???
NICE !!
 
2012-12-28 09:21:27 AM

durbnpoisn: mbillips: durbnpoisn: Let me make two nifty points here. One for real, the other from a novel...


Okay, I'll give you that troup withdrawal is in full swing in Iraq.

No, troop withdrawal is COMPLETE in Iraq. We haven't had ANY TROOPS THERE AT ALL since December, 2011, other than the 150 or so Marines that guard the embassy.

At this point, we have no interest in Afghanistan. Our troops didn't upset or distabalize anything there. Yet we are STILL there, and there doesn't really seem to be any sort of resolution or exit plan in sight.

We have an interest in anywhere that might become a failed state and harbor Al Qaeda. There is a resolution plan; it's working pretty well, and the exit plan has been clearly explained any number of times. Just because you haven't been paying attention doesn't mean there's been no progress.

There's been a lot of talk about green-on-blue violence screwing up the plan, but that seems way overblown. Casualty rates are WAY down in 2012 compared to 2011.
 
2012-12-28 09:23:02 AM

namatad: Zeb Hesselgresser: Total US Services people Active & Reserve - 3,000,000
Suicides for 2012 - 303, Roughly 1 per 10,000

US Population - 311,000,000
Suicides for 2010 - 38,000, Roughly 1 per 8,000

THANK YOU for pointing out the most important fact.
and pissing me off by pointing out that they are LOWER than genpop ???
NICE !!


This doesn't control for the fact that military applicants are "screened" for mental illness prior to enlistment. Obviously one could include that this process isn't particularly efficacious, but I assume that's the reason having a lower rate than the general population is not considered acceptable.
 
2012-12-28 09:26:51 AM

pciszek: Tat'dGreaser: Look, it's there. The resources are there, but if you have NCOs and officers treating someone who is suicidal as a leper than that's the wrong answer. Why the hell would we yell at people so far at the top that they have no idea what's going on? Leadership is where it has to start. If you're an NCO and you do that to a soldier in need, then turn in your f*cking stripes.

The NCOs are just following orders. NPR did a piece on this a few years ago. The policy (in the army anyway) is that PTSD does not exist, and if anyone claims to have it, start building a disciplinary case against them so you can discharge them without the Army being liable for any followup care. Psychiatric services are underfunded and not being made available. Picture the situation at Walter Reed, only with brains instead of bodies. The NPR story included the case of a serviceman who, unable to get a military shrink to see him, checked himself into a civilian mental hospital, where the staff agreed with his own self-assessment that he was seriously nuts and needed to be committed. The army send some guys to extract him from the hospital at gunpoint. The story also featured a NCO who spouted the official line about PTSD being something that flakey soldiers were making up, until he could no longer deny that he had it himself.

PTSD, under one name or another, has been known since at least WWI and acknowledged by the military since at least WWII. Things seem to have gone backwards.


George Carlin had a great bit on this. While certainly not the only reason, calling "shell shock" by increasingly clinical names dehumanizes the suffering. I know guys with operational exhaustion and I know guys with farking shell shock and I can promise you plain as day they are not the same frogdamned thing.
 
2012-12-28 09:27:04 AM
Military suicide CSB/

In mid 2006 I was deployed and living at FOB Rustimiyah in southeastern Baghdad. The mortars and rockets had been raining on us pretty frequently but it never really caused much stress to me. It was all the other BS that the Army still made us do that was stressful. Other guys felt the same way. A SPC from 2nd platoon was on patrol, took off his night vision and placed it on the roof of his humvee. He forgot they were there when the truck rolled out and the night vision rolled off the roof and into the mud. The missing night vision was discovered during one of the 5-times-a-day sensitive item checks later that evening. Because no one loses anything in the Army, he said someone stole them. Why someone would steal them is beyond me, we all had a set, but that's what he told command. An unholy shiatstorm ensued. We had a huge meeting with with the BN CSM who pleaded (unusual) for us to return the stolen night vision, the BN CO ordered all A Co. Soldiers to march around the base in formation singing cadence (nothing goes better with random rocket attacks like large groups of men walking together shouting loudly their location), we were stripped of all entertainment like laptops, dvd players, ipods, and even books. We were only allowed to have pen, paper and bibles. The night vision never turned up. This went on for two weeks. When eventually it came out that he had actually lost them out in sector and they were stolen, we gave that man hell. We felt it was our job. Two months later he killed himself in a portable toilet. His close friends say it was home problems and not us, but I couldn't help feeling some measure of responsibility. I also was the one who found the body only a few minutes after he did it. It's one of those things that messed me up from the tour. But I always availed myself of the mental health facilities.
I faced down the stigma because I didn't care what others would think. I understood that the things I had experienced there were not normal and that mental health can be just as important as physical health. I caught hell from my COC because every Friday for a few months I had a doctor's appointment, but it helped. I had studied WWII in college and learned that there was virtually no mental health apparatus available to those guys and the problems that caused. I knew I didn't want to wake up and see what I saw every day for the rest of my life. I knew that I didn't want to feel responsible for what I had or hadn't done. I needed the reassurance that comes with that help.
The biggest obstacle to getting help in the military is the COC. Even at a time when we had little to do in garrison other than clean out equipment from the tour, I was seen as a shammer who was trying to get out of work. Oftentimes when you tell your COC what it is exactly bothering you, you end up with a game of one-upmanship, of "I've seen worse and I'm OK, you're just shamming." All the stuff in this thread about shaming the individual is true as well. Had he said he was suicidal, he would have been ostracized, both purposefully and accidentally. He may have been taken from the unit and his friends, he would have been given a road guard vest and had his weapon taken away. Everyone on the FOB would have known what he was. It can't help. I guess I'm rambling at this point.

/End CSB
 
2012-12-28 09:28:15 AM

taurusowner: doyner: Yet I'm still waiting for the public to catch on to the fact that suicides are up due (in large part) to the increased rotation of personnel through war zones.

I would say it's not just being rotated through a war-zone, but being pulled away from their regular lives for a year at a time, multiple times over the span of a few years. It really makes actually living your life very difficult or even impossible for some. Being pulled away from you wife, girlfriend, work, school, friends, etc and being stuck in Afghanistan while everyone at home keeps living is very jarring. Missing the births of kids, older children being distant to you for being gone so much. Wife and girlfriends cheating and finding other people. Finding it much harder to pursue a real career type job or complete a degree in a reasonable amount of time. Deploying multiple times just farks your whole life up for pretty much the whole span you're in the military. You really just gotta be willing to put your life on hold and try to pick it back up again when you're all done. Some people can handle it. Some cant'.

I would be willing to be real money that most (75%+) of those suicides involved some form of spousal (wife/husband, girlfriend/boyfriend) difficulties at home.

It's not just the combat that gets to you. It's knowing that you have nothing to come home to that really tears the rug out from under your life.


On top of frequent rotations is the quick transition: one day you're in a war zone, the next you take a plane ride and are home. Everything is supposed to suddenly be back to hunky dory, but that's a huge shift of gears without time to process in between.
 
2012-12-28 09:28:53 AM

Schroedinger's Glory Hole: Kygz: If the Senior Non-Coms would quit farking with the juniors all the time with the chicken shiat, maybe we could get these numbers down a little bit.

At least 30% of suicides are directly related to demands to blouse boots.


More like "my old boss was a barely-literate, inhuman farkwad whose inability to unerstadn my job in no way impaired his ability to criticize it or reprioritize my life to revolve around meaningless bullshiat, so that's exactly how I'm going to treat you. Now go rewrite our entire unit SOP manual, I want to look good this APS."
 
2012-12-28 09:31:43 AM

Schroedinger's Glory Hole: Engiqueer, I can respect that. At least you folk aren't the ones always saying, "But but but we're all on the same team."


I prefer "picket-pounding-dumbsh*t" thank you very much

liam76: BTW the story was from 07 and they have done work to fix it, but largely because shiat like this was getting reported.


DINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGD I NG
 
2012-12-28 09:34:43 AM

Tat'dGreaser: liam76: BTW the story was from 07 and they have done work to fix it, but largely because shiat like this was getting reported.

DINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGD I NG


So you want to change yoru claim from the story is "complete fabrication bullsh*t" to the stroy has changed?
 
2012-12-28 09:35:52 AM

Ivandrago: Military suicide CSB/

In mid 2006 I was deployed and living at FOB Rustimiyah in southeastern Baghdad. The mortars and rockets had been raining on us pretty frequently but it never really caused much stress to me. It was all the other BS that the Army still made us do that was stressful. Other guys felt the same way. A SPC from 2nd platoon was on patrol, took off his night vision and placed it on the roof of his humvee. He forgot they were there when the truck rolled out and the night vision rolled off the roof and into the mud. The missing night vision was discovered during one of the 5-times-a-day sensitive item checks later that evening. Because no one loses anything in the Army, he said someone stole them. Why someone would steal them is beyond me, we all had a set, but that's what he told command. An unholy shiatstorm ensued. We had a huge meeting with with the BN CSM who pleaded (unusual) for us to return the stolen night vision, the BN CO ordered all A Co. Soldiers to march around the base in formation singing cadence (nothing goes better with random rocket attacks like large groups of men walking together shouting loudly their location), we were stripped of all entertainment like laptops, dvd players, ipods, and even books. We were only allowed to have pen, paper and bibles. The night vision never turned up. This went on for two weeks. When eventually it came out that he had actually lost them out in sector and they were stolen, we gave that man hell. We felt it was our job. Two months later he killed himself in a portable toilet. His close friends say it was home problems and not us, but I couldn't help feeling some measure of responsibility. I also was the one who found the body only a few minutes after he did it. It's one of those things that messed me up from the tour. But I always availed myself of the mental health facilities.
I faced down the stigma because I didn't care what others would think. I understood that the things I had experienced there we ...


Ah, Cuervo. What a lovely little shiathole. Good on you for squaring yourself away. Makes my life easier. Any day I get closer to not being needed is a good one.
 
2012-12-28 09:35:58 AM

Ivandrago: Military suicide CSB/

In mid 2006 I was deployed and living at FOB Rustimiyah in southeastern Baghdad. The mortars and rockets had been raining on us pretty frequently but it never really caused much stress to me. It was all the other BS that the Army still made us do that was stressful. Other guys felt the same way. A SPC from 2nd platoon was on patrol, took off his night vision and placed it on the roof of his humvee. He forgot they were there when the truck rolled out and the night vision rolled off the roof and into the mud. The missing night vision was discovered during one of the 5-times-a-day sensitive item checks later that evening. Because no one loses anything in the Army, he said someone stole them. Why someone would steal them is beyond me, we all had a set, but that's what he told command. An unholy shiatstorm ensued. We had a huge meeting with with the BN CSM who pleaded (unusual) for us to return the stolen night vision, the BN CO ordered all A Co. Soldiers to march around the base in formation singing cadence (nothing goes better with random rocket attacks like large groups of men walking together shouting loudly their location), we were stripped of all entertainment like laptops, dvd players, ipods, and even books. We were only allowed to have pen, paper and bibles. The night vision never turned up. This went on for two weeks. When eventually it came out that he had actually lost them out in sector and they were stolen, we gave that man hell. We felt it was our job. Two months later he killed himself in a portable toilet. His close friends say it was home problems and not us, but I couldn't help feeling some measure of responsibility. I also was the one who found the body only a few minutes after he did it. It's one of those things that messed me up from the tour. But I always availed myself of the mental health facilities.
I faced down the stigma because I didn't care what others would think. I understood that the things I had experienced there we ...


Not to blame the victim because nobody deserves to be bullied into suicide, but the man lost a piece of mission-essential kit that would be extremely useful to an enemy, bladed his own unit to cover his own farkup and then stood there with his thumbs in his mouth while the old man made his buddies eat shiat for something he knew they didn't do? I can't say I'd punch him in the balls while he slept but I certainly wouldn't sit with the guy at lunch either.

I didn't know the man or you but his death was not your fault, in my internet opinion. The guy did something that would've attracted scorn in any social circle and you were right to shun him; if you'd known he was on the edge I sincerely doubt you'd have pushed him an inch farther. Good on you for getting help and fark all the hoorah blowhards who have a problem with you doing what you need to do to ensure your survivability during your service and afterward. You have to do what's best for you and if that ends your watch then fine, there are plenty of young men behind you ready to step up and lots of old ones at the other end who would rather lead you to a place of honour than carry your casket to one. My username's a gmail address if you wanna chat.

Good on you for
 
2012-12-28 09:36:58 AM
In case you thought we were having no positive impact in Afghanistan:
 
2012-12-28 09:38:28 AM

Flakeloaf: Schroedinger's Glory Hole: Kygz: If the Senior Non-Coms would quit farking with the juniors all the time with the chicken shiat, maybe we could get these numbers down a little bit.

At least 30% of suicides are directly related to demands to blouse boots.

More like "my old boss was a barely-literate, inhuman farkwad whose inability to unerstadn my job in no way impaired his ability to criticize it or reprioritize my life to revolve around meaningless bullshiat, so that's exactly how I'm going to treat you. Now go rewrite our entire unit SOP manual, I want to look good this APS."


There's an academic term for this type of behavior. If you read historian Paul Fussell's work on the life of the average soldier in WWII, Wartime, he devotes an entire chapter to this. The chapter is called "Chickenshiat."
 
2012-12-28 09:42:28 AM
Need to organize the crack suicide squad
img130.imageshack.us
 
2012-12-28 09:43:20 AM

rnatalie: Need to organize the crack suicide squad
[img130.imageshack.us image 299x205]


3.bp.blogspot.com

beat you to it.
 
2012-12-28 09:46:18 AM

Mr. Breeze: mbillips: bakarocket: taurusowner: albertalaska: Soldiering is a gang of people killing armed and unarmed people. Indisputable. Unacceptable. How much self respect can you have when you are part of a murderous gang? Warriors and police do not act by virtue of bravery but act with the knowledge of being aided by the strength of their group. There is no bravery in a gang. I have no respect for them . Cowardice is the word I use to describe this behavior. Notice this fact : People never fight one on one without an audience. (unless they are drunk)

Too obvious. 2/10

Too clueless. -3/10

Soldiers are hired killers. This is fact. Some of us accept this. Some don't.

It doesn't mean they aren't sometimes necessary, but pretending they are more than murderers does everybody an injustice, and is probably related to the increase in suicides. When you tell people they are heroes and then order them to act like villains, you get a disconnect.

Oh, look, it's a baby troll. How adorable! Don't scare it, and somebody get a towel to wipe the drool off its bib.

Why would you wipe the drool off its bib? That's kinda what the bib is for.


It's funny. Whenever people can't respond with logical responses, they resort to calling people "troll".

I wonder if it's more comforting to just ignore those ideas that challenge one's intellect. I guess I'll never know.
 
2012-12-28 09:51:42 AM

clane: [cdn.motinetwork.net image 640x802]


hehehhhe so cute
but the war on republicans isnt a real war, just one in their tiny little insular minds
 
2012-12-28 09:51:53 AM

doyner: vygramul: It says something about how few combat deaths we have had.

Indeed it does.  Yet I'm still waiting for the public to catch on to the fact that suicides are up due (in large part) to the increased rotation of personnel through war zones.  Yes, battlefield medicine is an enormous contributor to this metric, as it is also a great service to medicine in general.  But such statements tend, on the surface, to discount the other harsh realities of our current system.

But the public won't catch on....until we bring back the draft and make wars a matter of nation-wide responsibility.


We don't need a draft.  What we need is a tax hike for war.  Something like, "for any deployment of more than a battalion, taxes go up by 10% to pay for the operation.  You are exempted if you, a spouse, or a dependent are deployed in the country of conflict."  Obviously, that would need some careful definition because that simple proof of concept has holes, but I'm tired of attempts to have wars on the cheap without the public appreciating it.  It would give politicians tangible reasons the public would appreciate to vote against a given war, it would help refine the difference between "wars" (pretending a limited bombing of Libya and the war in Iraq were the same in any meaningful sense is absurd), it would make the rich actually have to bear a burden for their enhanced ability to avoid having to fight for their country, and it would FUND THE DAMN THING.
 
2012-12-28 09:54:10 AM
I for one am (shell) shocked.
 
2012-12-28 09:58:09 AM

Bomb Head Mohammed: way south: Wars cause the rates for violence, crime, and abuse to increase. It wouldn't be surprising to see suicide and a number of other bad things on that list.
...But the military has to go to war, that is its primary purpose. Most wars are political, chosen by Congress.

Seems to me the politicians are on the hook for this one.
Soldiers need more support after the state is done chewing them up and spitting them out. Congress controls the purse strings.

I'm sorry, but no.

Enough is enough.

There is a myth in the USA that somehow US soldiers are not looked after. In a small number of cases, this is true--I wholehartedly support the notion that soldiers should get complete medical and psychological assistance needed to 'make them whole' to the extent possible after time spent in harm's way.

However, the general idea that in the USA soldiers are somehow 'forgotten' or underfunded is absolute and total nonsense. ...


At first I got all indignant, but you know what? You are correct on most of these points. A friend of mine got out after 8 years service including deploying to Iraq in '03 and '05. He's currently getting 80% disability for a bad ankle, a bad back, and memory problems.

I've gone paintballing with this guy many times since he's been out so I know he's not hurt enough to warrant the handicapped plates he was given. And given the fact that he's a computer programmer and network administrator, I don't understand where his claims of memory problems are coming from. It's not that he cheated the system or anything. He's just taking what's handed out to him by the VA. You're example though of the 18 year old with 2 years service however is not possible unless they were somehow injured enough to be medically discharged, so I don't think you are telling the whole story there.

But I do believe that many servicemembers who keep hearing this "military is underpaid" BS eventually buy into it for the simple fact that when something is continuously repeated to them over and over again, they eventually believe it.

I do take umbrage with your "low educational achievement" comment though. Graduating in the 6th percentile of my class I chose to join out of necessity and a somewhat misguided patriotism (this was pre 9/11 btw). But I'll not get into that.

As for: our soliders in WW2 accomplished far more for far, far less, The military of WW2 was not as exposed to the political and media nightmare that currently encompasses modern military action. If we could have carpet bombed or nuked Iraq the way the allies did Germany and Japan things might have taken a lot less time and less money. But for better or worse the media prevents that sort of heavy handedness through its extensive coverage. In addition, war profiteering was a negative thing back then. Nowadays it's expected, and almost like a game for corporations and politicians alike.
 
2012-12-28 10:02:42 AM

I'm an Egyptian!: Flakeloaf: Schroedinger's Glory Hole: Kygz: If the Senior Non-Coms would quit farking with the juniors all the time with the chicken shiat, maybe we could get these numbers down a little bit.

At least 30% of suicides are directly related to demands to blouse boots.

More like "my old boss was a barely-literate, inhuman farkwad whose inability to unerstadn my job in no way impaired his ability to criticize it or reprioritize my life to revolve around meaningless bullshiat, so that's exactly how I'm going to treat you. Now go rewrite our entire unit SOP manual, I want to look good this APS."

There's an academic term for this type of behavior. If you read historian Paul Fussell's work on the life of the average soldier in WWII, Wartime, he devotes an entire chapter to this. The chapter is called "Chickenshiat."


Sounds like a fun read. Thanks!
 
2012-12-28 10:03:53 AM

Flakeloaf: I'm an Egyptian!: Flakeloaf: Schroedinger's Glory Hole: Kygz: If the Senior Non-Coms would quit farking with the juniors all the time with the chicken shiat, maybe we could get these numbers down a little bit.

At least 30% of suicides are directly related to demands to blouse boots.

More like "my old boss was a barely-literate, inhuman farkwad whose inability to unerstadn my job in no way impaired his ability to criticize it or reprioritize my life to revolve around meaningless bullshiat, so that's exactly how I'm going to treat you. Now go rewrite our entire unit SOP manual, I want to look good this APS."

There's an academic term for this type of behavior. If you read historian Paul Fussell's work on the life of the average soldier in WWII, Wartime, he devotes an entire chapter to this. The chapter is called "Chickenshiat."

Sounds like a fun read. Thanks!


Here's a copy, for the edutainment of the thread.
 
2012-12-28 10:05:13 AM

Babwa Wawa: StoPPeRmobile: Let's try preventing the slaughter of 30,000 - 50,000 lives a year on the roads.

In 22 of the last 30 years, the rate of traffic fatalities has dropped.  We haven't had a lower rate of traffic fatalities since World War 1.  Hell, the sheer number of fatalities has dropped 25% even without factoring in population over the last 10 years.  There haven't been 50,000 traffic deaths in the US since 1980, for Christ's sake.

TL;DR:  What the hell are you talking about?

[i.imgur.com image 600x464]


Although, I'm not sure why they compare the number of deaths vs the total population. It would be better to compare it to the total population of DRIVERS.


That said, there aren't less accidents, there are better cars and emergency response to help prevent casualties.

I mean, 20 years ago, you'd be laying in a ditch dying while waiting for a response. Today, even for fender benders, there are 20 people dialing 911 to report.
 
2012-12-28 10:05:57 AM

liam76: So you want to change yoru claim from the story is "complete fabrication bullsh*t" to the stroy has changed?


You can't take a story from 2007 and act like it's fact right now
 
2012-12-28 10:15:17 AM

bakarocket: Mr. Breeze: mbillips: bakarocket: taurusowner: albertalaska: Soldiering is a gang of people killing armed and unarmed people. Indisputable. Unacceptable. How much self respect can you have when you are part of a murderous gang? Warriors and police do not act by virtue of bravery but act with the knowledge of being aided by the strength of their group. There is no bravery in a gang. I have no respect for them . Cowardice is the word I use to describe this behavior. Notice this fact : People never fight one on one without an audience. (unless they are drunk)

Too obvious. 2/10

Too clueless. -3/10

Soldiers are hired killers. This is fact. Some of us accept this. Some don't.

It doesn't mean they aren't sometimes necessary, but pretending they are more than murderers does everybody an injustice, and is probably related to the increase in suicides. When you tell people they are heroes and then order them to act like villains, you get a disconnect.

Oh, look, it's a baby troll. How adorable! Don't scare it, and somebody get a towel to wipe the drool off its bib.

Why would you wipe the drool off its bib? That's kinda what the bib is for.

It's funny. Whenever people can't respond with logical responses, they resort to calling people "troll".

I wonder if it's more comforting to just ignore those ideas that challenge one's intellect. I guess I'll never know.


You'll never know until you actually challenge someone's intellect. Go look up the definition of murder. Better luck next time.
 
2012-12-28 10:16:29 AM
Most major armies now have a huge infrastructure in place to deal with mental health issues. Previous posters have been correct as well: bullying and harassment is by far more damaging than being shot at or blown up. To be excluded from a team that you have been living and fighting with for months is deeply traumatic. Many OSIs could be healed quickly if there was true acceptance of the individual and encouraging them to rejoin their comrades once they are fit. Ostracization is the killer.
 
2012-12-28 10:18:24 AM

bakarocket: It's funny. Whenever people can't respond with logical responses, they resort to calling people "troll".

I wonder if it's more comforting to just ignore those ideas that challenge one's intellect. I guess I'll never know


You are either a troll or too stupid to understand the definition of "murderer".


Tat'dGreaser: liam76: So you want to change yoru claim from the story is "complete fabrication bullsh*t" to the stroy has changed?

You can't take a story from 2007 and act like it's fact right now


He, nor I acted like it was a fact "right now". Just mentioned that we heard about it.

And the fact is how the army trerats it is still a problem. "Vets are telling me that if you fill the form out truthfully and you want to be a career soldier, your career is over."
 
2012-12-28 10:21:24 AM

Flakeloaf: George Carlin had a great bit on this. While certainly not the only reason, calling "shell shock" by increasingly clinical names dehumanizes the suffering. I know guys with operational exhaustion and I know guys with farking shell shock and I can promise you plain as day they are not the same frogdamned thing.


Shell shock in the sense of temporary paralysis may have an actual physiological cause: Apparently your adrenaline glands are always secreting a small amount of adrenaline--normal operating conditions for the human body include a small amount of adrenaline. In combat, someone might be running on adrenaline for an extended period of time to the point where they use up the available supply, and for the first time in their lives have almost no adrenaline in their bloodstream. The fight/flight reflex might not work without it. To confuse things, this gets called "shell shock" and so does PTSD, and of course the same people are at risk for both of these conditions.
 
2012-12-28 10:21:57 AM
Very sad,
I watched a few episodes of that bomb patrol show. What amazes me is how the soldiers can go out, get shot at, defuse bombs, engage in enemy contact who wants to kill you and then go back to the base and go to bed.
How the hell do you sleep? There's no way you can sleep well or have a "normal" dream.
heck, i have a shiatty day at my cush job and I have nightmares.

The battles seem to be in the head more than the field.
 
2012-12-28 10:23:25 AM

clane: cdn.motinetwork.net


And what is the third? Are you calling Libya a war? By that standard, you would have to call Grenada and Panama "wars" as well.
 
2012-12-28 10:24:31 AM

Flakeloaf: I'm an Egyptian!: Flakeloaf: Schroedinger's Glory Hole: Kygz: If the Senior Non-Coms would quit farking with the juniors all the time with the chicken shiat, maybe we could get these numbers down a little bit.

At least 30% of suicides are directly related to demands to blouse boots.

More like "my old boss was a barely-literate, inhuman farkwad whose inability to unerstadn my job in no way impaired his ability to criticize it or reprioritize my life to revolve around meaningless bullshiat, so that's exactly how I'm going to treat you. Now go rewrite our entire unit SOP manual, I want to look good this APS."

There's an academic term for this type of behavior. If you read historian Paul Fussell's work on the life of the average soldier in WWII, Wartime, he devotes an entire chapter to this. The chapter is called "Chickenshiat."

Sounds like a fun read. Thanks!


When you read it, you realize that the more things change, the more they stay the same. With the exception of the alcohol bit.
 
2012-12-28 10:24:48 AM
My ex best friend / roommate joined the army after divorcing his HS sweetheart. After the breakup and before he went to boot camp we had many long drunk nights. Hell we both had issues and helped each other through them. I told him that I thought the military would be a bad decision givin his personality but he had already signed the papers.

Well fast forward about 9 mos after being in the service I get a call from his brother crying (another one of my friends) who told me that he was found that morning hung in his closet in the dorm. I think it had more to do with his ex having a baby w. the guy she cheated on him with plus his current gf broke up w. him the night before because he wasn't there to comfort her and she needed someone then but he was stuck in the army and couldn't be there.

Granted suicide sucks but I will always remember the good times we had hanging out.

/RIP Todd
 
2012-12-28 10:26:27 AM

ggecko: Babwa Wawa: StoPPeRmobile: Let's try preventing the slaughter of 30,000 - 50,000 lives a year on the roads.

In 22 of the last 30 years, the rate of traffic fatalities has dropped.  We haven't had a lower rate of traffic fatalities since World War 1.  Hell, the sheer number of fatalities has dropped 25% even without factoring in population over the last 10 years.  There haven't been 50,000 traffic deaths in the US since 1980, for Christ's sake.

TL;DR:  What the hell are you talking about?

[i.imgur.com image 600x464]

Although, I'm not sure why they compare the number of deaths vs the total population. It would be better to compare it to the total population of DRIVERS.


That said, there aren't less accidents, there are better cars and emergency response to help prevent casualties.

I mean, 20 years ago, you'd be laying in a ditch dying while waiting for a response. Today, even for fender benders, there are 20 people dialing 911 to report.


I agree, but better tires, better brakes, better handling results in fewer accidents overall. Anyway the net effect is fewer roadway deaths, and the trend will continue.

I'll wager that withib my lifetime roadway deaths will become a genuine curiosity as self-driving cars overtake human drivers.
 
2012-12-28 10:26:47 AM

pciszek: Flakeloaf: George Carlin had a great bit on this. While certainly not the only reason, calling "shell shock" by increasingly clinical names dehumanizes the suffering. I know guys with operational exhaustion and I know guys with farking shell shock and I can promise you plain as day they are not the same frogdamned thing.

Shell shock in the sense of temporary paralysis may have an actual physiological cause: Apparently your adrenaline glands are always secreting a small amount of adrenaline--normal operating conditions for the human body include a small amount of adrenaline. In combat, someone might be running on adrenaline for an extended period of time to the point where they use up the available supply, and for the first time in their lives have almost no adrenaline in their bloodstream. The fight/flight reflex might not work without it. To confuse things, this gets called "shell shock" and so does PTSD, and of course the same people are at risk for both of these conditions.


Actually, both work on the same underlying biological principle and is thus the same disorder, it's just the stimulus the nervous system attunes to that is different. So a WWI soldier in the trenches might have heightened response to loud noises that have been associated with the sound of artillery hence "shell shock", while a modern soldier might not be able to healthily interface with social situations if they've been in a prolonged asymmetrical situation like the one wars we're currently fighting where anyone can be an aggressor.
 
2012-12-28 10:32:16 AM

Schroedinger's Glory Hole: This doesn't control for the fact that military applicants are "screened" for mental illness prior to enlistment. Obviously one could include that this process isn't particularly efficacious, but I assume that's the reason having a lower rate than the general population is not considered acceptable.


true, but it also doesnt adjust for people who want to join the army being a little crazy in a different way.
it could be argued that risk takers join the military or people less worried about life.

in the end, most groups are self selected, regardless of testing for this or that.
It might be interesting to see suicide rates for people who are rejected from enlistment, drop out of boot camp, get discharged early vs 2-10 years vs 20+ years.

I think I might love numbers too much.
 
2012-12-28 10:32:53 AM

Babwa Wawa: I agree, but better tires, better brakes, better handling results in fewer accidents overall. Anyway the net effect is fewer roadway deaths, and the trend will continue.

I'll wager that withib my lifetime roadway deaths will become a genuine curiosity as self-driving cars overtake human drivers.


Plus, these mamby-pamby young whippersnappers moving to the cities and deciding that they don't need cars.
 
2012-12-28 10:34:30 AM

vygramul: We don't need a draft.  What we need is a tax hike for war.  Something like, "for any deployment of more than a battalion, taxes go up by 10% to pay for the operation.  You are exempted if you, a spouse, or a dependent are deployed in the country of conflict."  Obviously, that would need some careful definition because that simple proof of concept has holes, but I'm tired of attempts to have wars on the cheap without the public appreciating it.  It would give politicians tangible reasons the public would appreciate to vote against a given war, it would help refine the difference between "wars" (pretending a limited bombing of Libya and the war in Iraq were the same in any meaningful sense is absurd), it would make the rich actually have to bear a burden for their enhanced ability to avoid having to fight for their country, and it would FUND THE DAMN THING.


meh
can we start with PUNISHING the people who lied to start with?
It will be a REALLY SHORT WAR and the people will love us?? HAHAHAHAHAH
How about increasing taxes every year that we are still at war? LOLOLOL

Instead we got two wars and tax cuts?? WTF
It is so cute watching the GOP cut taxes and increase spending.
fark EM
 
2012-12-28 10:41:33 AM

pciszek: clane: cdn.motinetwork.net

And what is the third? Are you calling Libya a war? By that standard, you would have to call Grenada and Panama "wars" as well.


it depends on if a Democrat or a Republican is president....
2.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-12-28 10:41:46 AM

Schroedinger's Glory Hole: This doesn't control for the fact that military applicants are "screened" for mental illness prior to enlistment. Obviously one could include that this process isn't particularly efficacious, but I assume that's the reason having a lower rate than the general population is not considered acceptable.


How about if you sort by age cohort and gender? How do the numbers compare then?

Some groups of people who aren't in the military who might be prone to suicide:

Teenagers under 18
Old people
Terminally ill people
Stockbrokers
Heavy drug users
Rock musicians (but I repeat myself)
 
2012-12-28 10:43:14 AM

PonceAlyosha: pciszek: Flakeloaf: George Carlin had a great bit on this. While certainly not the only reason, calling "shell shock" by increasingly clinical names dehumanizes the suffering. I know guys with operational exhaustion and I know guys with farking shell shock and I can promise you plain as day they are not the same frogdamned thing.

Shell shock in the sense of temporary paralysis may have an actual physiological cause: Apparently your adrenaline glands are always secreting a small amount of adrenaline--normal operating conditions for the human body include a small amount of adrenaline. In combat, someone might be running on adrenaline for an extended period of time to the point where they use up the available supply, and for the first time in their lives have almost no adrenaline in their bloodstream. The fight/flight reflex might not work without it. To confuse things, this gets called "shell shock" and so does PTSD, and of course the same people are at risk for both of these conditions.

Actually, both work on the same underlying biological principle and is thus the same disorder, it's just the stimulus the nervous system attunes to that is different. So a WWI soldier in the trenches might have heightened response to loud noises that have been associated with the sound of artillery hence "shell shock", while a modern soldier might not be able to healthily interface with social situations if they've been in a prolonged asymmetrical situation like the one wars we're currently fighting where anyone can be an aggressor.


Potentially yes and no. There are multiple possible interactions at play. For the temporary paralysis, which in many cases may be peritraumatic dissociation, there is the element of a potential blast injury causing a mild traumatic brain injury (mTBI). In short, your bell gets rung, and you don't know which way is up. The time for this loss of memory/action is dependent on the specific blast injury mechanism, or the overall severity of the injury. Another possible factor is the overwhelming shock to the system, in which the autonomic nervous system is trying to figure out how to respond. There's been some work focusing on the vagal system by Porges, in which he theorizes that in cases where there is no injury and the individual freezes in response to stress, there is an activation of the dorsal vagal complex in which the reverts to a evolutionarily older branch of the vagus. This results in a survival mechanism which cause a "freeze" in order to conserve resources.

As for the heightened response to specific triggers, that plain old hypervigilance. It's a vicious cycle. The individual learns that specific triggers like loud noises or sudden movements indicate danger. Works great in a combat environment. However, as the response becomes more frequent, that response not only gets wired in, it also can become more generalized. So while in a combat context it's very helpful, it can be problematic if say, a car backfires in a non-threatening environment. The individual still reacts, further wiring in that response. Couple this with a combat cognitive schema that the world is a dangerous place, the response continues. It's a PITA to unlearn what you have learned, especially if you have experiential evidence that it works. It's similar to your example of seeing anyone can be an aggressor. A lot of my clients repeatedly report that civilians can't be trusted. They've learned that the only people you can trust are either in your unit, or have shared a similar combat experience.
 
2012-12-28 10:45:28 AM

Mr. Breeze: You'll never know until you actually challenge someone's intellect. Go look up the definition of murder. Better luck next time.


liam76: bakarocket: It's funny. Whenever people can't respond with logical responses, they resort to calling people "troll".

You are either a troll or too stupid to understand the definition of "murderer".


Murder is defined as unlawful killing, but it doesn't say whose law takes precedence, that of the murderer or the murderee. That of the killer or the victim.

You see, that's where they get you. The old testament leaves lots of room for interpretation, so people think it's cool. But that's bullshiat. God didn't give Moses a rule that said, "DoN't kill people (unless the person in charge of your country says it's okay, or unless the people you are killing deserve to be killed, etc.)"

That "it says murder not kill" thing, is too farking convenient. It ain't okay, and so Muslims, Jews, and Christians shouldn't be okay with it.

And Jesus was very clear on this point too, and anyone who calls themselves a Christian (and who actually follows the teachings) is going to have issues when told to kill people.

It's cool though. Ignore my initial point - which was that your entire culture worships a man who said killing is bad and that this could lead to issues when people are told to kill others - and focus on the subjective part that is irrelevant to the discussion of mental health.

There's no trolling going here. I just disagree vehemently with the national hypocrisy. Perhaps that is indistinguishable from trolling, because everyone is going to disagree with me.

The definition of murder is subjective. If you don't understand the truth of this statement, your contributions to the discussion are as worthless as the bytes used to display them.
 
2012-12-28 10:45:41 AM

PonceAlyosha: Flakeloaf: I'm an Egyptian!: Flakeloaf: Schroedinger's Glory Hole: Kygz: If the Senior Non-Coms would quit farking with the juniors all the time with the chicken shiat, maybe we could get these numbers down a little bit.

At least 30% of suicides are directly related to demands to blouse boots.

More like "my old boss was a barely-literate, inhuman farkwad whose inability to unerstadn my job in no way impaired his ability to criticize it or reprioritize my life to revolve around meaningless bullshiat, so that's exactly how I'm going to treat you. Now go rewrite our entire unit SOP manual, I want to look good this APS."

There's an academic term for this type of behavior. If you read historian Paul Fussell's work on the life of the average soldier in WWII, Wartime, he devotes an entire chapter to this. The chapter is called "Chickenshiat."

Sounds like a fun read. Thanks!

Here's a copy, for the edutainment of the thread.


That was about five paragraphs longer than it really needed to be. The rest of it was just needless stretching of his vocabulary. Still, reality sucks.
 
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