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(Stars and Stripes)   There are now more soldier suicides than combat deaths   (stripes.com) divider line 231
    More: Sad, soldier suicides, Army Reserve, Department of the Army, combat deaths, soldiers, suicides  
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7539 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Dec 2012 at 5:10 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-28 06:51:56 AM  
Suicide centers are needed. Just make it easy, so it doesn't involve a school or theater. If you want to feel better, we'll even charge you a small fee for your offing. Just get off this ride if you don't like it.
 
2012-12-28 06:52:47 AM  
I heard on NPR last week that the majority of these suicides are by soldiers that have NOT seen combat.
 
2012-12-28 06:53:12 AM  

ghare: As I understand it, it's due to the military having to accept people with mental issues in order to meet their recruitment quotas. Same reason we have so many homeless vets on the street- recruitment of people who were likely to become homeless without the military,


"As you know, you go to war with the Army you have. They're not the Army you might want or wish to have at a later time." Rumsfeld, D.
 
2012-12-28 06:53:34 AM  

WhyteRaven74: ghare: Same reason we have so many homeless vets on the street-

Actually a lot of them have no issues before service, after is another issue.


citation? I mean, seriously. How do you know this?
 
2012-12-28 06:55:11 AM  

Runs_With_Scissors_: One Bad Apple: Yeah, sadly this is actually the preferred norm.

True, but suicide numbers are way up.


TFA has no information on how the suicide rate in the military matches up with non-military suicide rates in the US for the same age groups.  Without that context, it's a useless statistic.
 
2012-12-28 06:55:49 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: arefott Gen


AverageAmericanGuy: bakarocket: mbillips: Oh, look, it's a baby troll. How adorable! Don't scare it, and somebody get a towel to wipe the drool off its bib.

Fortunately for most of the posters on the internet, trolling is not defined as "disagreeing with other people".

When people are taught to believe in the sanctity of life and in a religion that despises the concept of murder, they will have issues when they are told to kill other people.

ohg od oyou sound like one ot othose "Barefott Gen "loves. sometimes s a fightn fins't escabpale.


I'm so confused by everything in this post.
 
2012-12-28 06:56:56 AM  

ghare: WhyteRaven74: ghare: Same reason we have so many homeless vets on the street-

Actually a lot of them have no issues before service, after is another issue.

citation? I mean, seriously. How do you know this?


Because they were 18, graduating with a 2.0 and were well on their way to mediocrity when the Feds swooped into the schools and promised them a life of glory and hot women. So you really need a citation? It's not a difficult conclusion, they were full of potential on their way to the community college down the street.
 
2012-12-28 06:58:35 AM  

Big Ramifications: 99% of Bill Hicks' [so called] stand up comedy involved YELLING AT IMAGINARY people.


On the off-chance that you're serious, are you talking about the imaginary anti-abortion, creationist, marketing, anti-drug, or anti-intellectualist people? Or figments nobody has heard from since, like Rush Limbaugh? Malls?
 
2012-12-28 06:58:47 AM  
Only about 500 total deaths in a year including suicides, with an active war going on.

... and we're complaining about this? Because by the standards of basically everyone else ever that makes us statistically more invincible than even the mythological figures.

//Not that suicide counseling isn't needed, but... suicide counseling is provided. So not much more we can do there.
 
2012-12-28 07:02:00 AM  

Bomb Head Mohammed: way south: Wars cause the rates for violence, crime, and abuse to increase. It wouldn't be surprising to see suicide and a number of other bad things on that list.
...But the military has to go to war, that is its primary purpose. Most wars are political, chosen by Congress.

Seems to me the politicians are on the hook for this one.
Soldiers need more support after the state is done chewing them up and spitting them out. Congress controls the purse strings.

I'm sorry, but no.

Enough is enough.

There is a myth in the USA that somehow US soldiers are not looked after. In a small number of cases, this is true--I wholehartedly support the notion that soldiers should get complete medical and psychological assistance needed to 'make them whole' to the extent possible after time spent in harm's way.

However, the general idea that in the USA soldiers are somehow 'forgotten' or underfunded is absolute and total nonsense. What we have forgotten is that soldiers are a diverse bunch, and like every diverse bunch there are bound to be all manner of situations and people. Enlisted personnel in particular often come from difficult circumstances and, frankly, low educational achievement coming in, and then we somehow expect that they're entitled to $80,000 middle management jobs when they come out. Bollocks.

it has been estimated that the total compensation of even the lowliest US soldier is now in excess of $100,00 per year equivalent when you consider

- modest pay
- housing benefits
- health benefits
- job training benefits
- mortgage preferences and benefits
- retirement / pension benefits
- job preference benefits, occasionally written into law
- subsidized "other stuff" benefits from the government (insurance, etc)
- subsidized benefits from non-government sources
- tax benefits

the idea that we need to "spend more money" on soldiers is laughable. our soliders in WW2 accomplished far more for far, far less. They also didn't expect a few enlisted years to mean tha ...


Then I recant my earlier accusation of the suits (because often the obvious solution is not a solution at all, and that's just how life works).
...But i do so on the condition that we recognize there is a problem.
Soldiers today face longer deployments than in WWII and work under more stressful conditions. Home life is not the same as it was in the fifties. There are different social pressures they get exposed to by the Internet, and the economy has been less than stellar. Veterans are a group that attracts bad mojo, and this is a proven statistical.

Understanding that we've got an unacceptable situation in need of a specific response, is there an alternative?

/because the normal answer to a difficult social problem is to dump money into related services.
/I don't see it as flag waving when we do it for any other issue. Doing stuff costs money.
 
2012-12-28 07:03:18 AM  

ghare: Seriously, there are a boatload of programs in place for those people.


And yet veterans keep losing their homes. There are no programs that keep them in their homes when they can't find work or can't work for one reason or another. And there's precious little to get them off the streets, and many of the homeless aren't mentally ill at all. Some who are perceived as such are just angry at the world that after what they did there was nowhere to turn to for help..

citation? I mean, seriously. How do you know this?

The last several years' worth of news stories about vets having issues? Not everyone who joins the military is someone going nowhere and with no prospects. When you read stories about people with college degrees who are falling apart the seams because they can't find a job or hold a job and thus can't keep a place to live or find a new place to live even if they're scraping by, it doesn't take long to figure out that if you're reading about one such person there's going to be a ton more you aren't reading about.
 
2012-12-28 07:03:45 AM  

Jim_Callahan: Only about 500 total deaths in a year including suicides, with an active war going on.


I find it strange (amusing?) that they didn't call Korea or Viet Nam a war but they call these two occupations wars. But then they call everything wars now. Just like they call every act of violence terrorism. It's sensational!
 
2012-12-28 07:05:21 AM  

natas6.0: I am glad that fewer americans are dying overseas for politics
but hey, you voted in the guys who keep sending them
the blame is also on you


No, you voted them in.  The blame is on you.  If it wasn't for you, we wouldn't be in this mess.  Jackass.
 
2012-12-28 07:06:31 AM  

Jim_Callahan: Only about 500 total deaths in a year including suicides, with an active war going on.

... and we're complaining about this? Because by the standards of basically everyone else ever that makes us statistically more invincible than even the mythological figures.


If children have less chance of dying than ever before in history, should we not worry about the ones that still do? Isn't there something wrong with counting suicides among war casualties (TFA doesn't even talk about those who've left active duty)?

/anyway low death counts are easier to accomplish if the war isn't fought on your soil
 
2012-12-28 07:07:27 AM  
I will give it to the Army, they finally got their head out of their collective asses and came up with a comprehensive program on dealing with the mental health side of combat. They weren't prepared for these wars on that end. We now have multiple systems set up to deal with soldiers who are suicidal. We are trained monthly on these procedures.

The real issue? 12+ month tours is f*cking ridiculous. I don't care how tough you are, a couple of these could break you. If you decide to be a career soldier, you're going to see combat tours multiple times for a year at a pop. The Marines have a way better system of shorter tours. Soldiers sometimes like being soldiers, they want to stay in as a lifer but these multiple year long tours are killing them. Literally.
 
2012-12-28 07:11:25 AM  

Amos Quito: Antidepressants?

War on drugs.

You can't fight one.


You have to take a 6 month supply of any drugs you're taking with you, and you have to have a written plan for how to get the remaining supply when your initial one runs out. It is a huge hassle.
 
2012-12-28 07:11:45 AM  

Ilmarinen: Big Ramifications: 99% of Bill Hicks' [so called] stand up comedy involved YELLING AT IMAGINARY people.

On the off-chance that you're serious, are you talking about the imaginary anti-abortion, creationist, marketing, anti-drug, or anti-intellectualist people? Or figments nobody has heard from since, like Rush Limbaugh? Malls?

~
~
Shiat for brains. How about thinking for a bit before rushing to get but hurt.

He's yelling at them as if they were in the audience. Yelling at these imaginary people like they just heckled him. It was bizarre. I'm not saying these people don't exist.

I saw a [so called] best of Bill Hicks and it was terrible stuff. I mean, most of the time there was no punch line. Just "THIS IS WHAT REPUBLICANS BELIEVE AND I AM YELLING AND I AM FUNNY YAARGH!!!"
 
2012-12-28 07:12:15 AM  
Let me make two nifty points here. One for real, the other from a novel...


1. A friend of mine was in Iraq at the onset of the war. He was initially trained as a navigator on a plane. But that soon turned into "spot targets on the ground for us to blow the fark up." We were talking one day, and he was visibly shaken by the whole thing because, he would call in the coordinates of a target, and a few seconds later, everyone there was dead. "This isn't a farking video game, man. I don't know how many people I sentenced to death."

2. Lord of the Rings. At one point Faramir looks down at a dead soldier that had just fallen off an oliphant. (Here I must paraphrase, as I don't remember the exact quote) "What made this person leave their home and come here to fight? Is this person inherently evil? Does he have a family that is awaiting his return?"


Now the point here is, what the bloody hell are we still doing in Iraq and Afghanistan?! The primary objectives (useless as they were), were accomplished. We should never have been there to start with. And no one has provided any sort of reasonable explanation as to WHY we are still there now - and we can't find enough money to prevent economic collapse at the end of this year.

There's some good rambling for ya... That was like throwing 15 balls in the air in order that someone might catch just one of them.
 
2012-12-28 07:12:51 AM  

Babwa Wawa: No, you voted them in.  The blame is on you.  If it wasn't for you, we wouldn't be in this mess.  Jackass.


Actually, given our choices, we voted in the candidate who got us out of Iraq and is getting us out of Afghanistan and didn't invade Iran or Syria. There isn't a whole lot else as voters we could have done.
 
2012-12-28 07:14:02 AM  
we know why twewer in afhgentisan. 9/11.

IRawq? I duno.
 
2012-12-28 07:19:30 AM  
its like a surplus!

:D
 
2012-12-28 07:19:50 AM  

Amos Quito: Antidepressants?

.


Ex was a PA at the helichopper unit at Ft. Wainwright. When they deployed in 2005 they were handing that shiat out like it was candy.

So yeah.
 
2012-12-28 07:21:56 AM  

Bomb Head Mohammed: way south: Wars cause the rates for violence, crime, and abuse to increase. It wouldn't be surprising to see suicide and a number of other bad things on that list.
...But the military has to go to war, that is its primary purpose. Most wars are political, chosen by Congress.

Seems to me the politicians are on the hook for this one.
Soldiers need more support after the state is done chewing them up and spitting them out. Congress controls the purse strings.

I'm sorry, but no.

Enough is enough.

There is a myth in the USA that somehow US soldiers are not looked after. In a small number of cases, this is true--I wholehartedly support the notion that soldiers should get complete medical and psychological assistance needed to 'make them whole' to the extent possible after time spent in harm's way.

However, the general idea that in the USA soldiers are somehow 'forgotten' or underfunded is absolute and total nonsense. What we have forgotten is that soldiers are a diverse bunch, and like every diverse bunch there are bound to be all manner of situations and people. Enlisted personnel in particular often come from difficult circumstances and, frankly, low educational achievement coming in, and then we somehow expect that they're entitled to $80,000 middle management jobs when they come out. Bollocks.

it has been estimated that the total compensation of even the lowliest US soldier is now in excess of $100,00 per year equivalent when you consider

- modest pay
- housing benefits
- health benefits
- job training benefits
- mortgage preferences and benefits
- retirement / pension benefits
- job preference benefits, occasionally written into law
- subsidized "other stuff" benefits from the government (insurance, etc)
- subsidized benefits from non-government sources
- tax benefits

the idea that we need to "spend more money" on soldiers is laughable. our soliders in WW2 accomplished far more for far, far less. They also didn't expect a few enlisted years to mean tha ...


I am a 7-year Navy vet and have never seen anyone else make these points (other than me). "Veteran" has become some kind of lifetime honor tag to be milked at every opportunity, when it was simply a job to most of us that were in it. Man, it's refreshing to see another human being who truly understands the actual dynamic here.
 
2012-12-28 07:22:01 AM  

durbnpoisn: Let me make two nifty points here. One for real, the other from a novel...


1. A friend of mine was in Iraq at the onset of the war. He was initially trained as a navigator on a plane. But that soon turned into "spot targets on the ground for us to blow the fark up." We were talking one day, and he was visibly shaken by the whole thing because, he would call in the coordinates of a target, and a few seconds later, everyone there was dead. "This isn't a farking video game, man. I don't know how many people I sentenced to death."

2. Lord of the Rings. At one point Faramir looks down at a dead soldier that had just fallen off an oliphant. (Here I must paraphrase, as I don't remember the exact quote) "What made this person leave their home and come here to fight? Is this person inherently evil? Does he have a family that is awaiting his return?"


Now the point here is, what the bloody hell are we still doing in Iraq and Afghanistan?! The primary objectives (useless as they were), were accomplished. We should never have been there to start with. And no one has provided any sort of reasonable explanation as to WHY we are still there now - and we can't find enough money to prevent economic collapse at the end of this year.

There's some good rambling for ya... That was like throwing 15 balls in the air in order that someone might catch just one of them.



And yet, it was a good and thoughtful post.
 
2012-12-28 07:22:49 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: I HATE IT WHN EPEOLPLE MIGIGN THE farkING TRRRPOTS


Drunk, functionaly retarded, or some kind of meta-troll?
 
2012-12-28 07:24:52 AM  

Optimus Primate: "Veteran" has become some kind of lifetime honor tag to be milked at every opportunity,


In the case of combat vets, what there is is nowhere near enough. If some need to be provided for for the rest of their lives, so be it, if we want to keep making them, we can damn well pay for what they need after.
 
2012-12-28 07:25:52 AM  

MythDragon: Drunk, functionaly retarded, or some kind of meta-troll?


I'm gonna go with yes.
 
2012-12-28 07:28:01 AM  

Tat'dGreaser: I will give it to the Army, they finally got their head out of their collective asses and came up with a comprehensive program on dealing with the mental health side of combat. They weren't prepared for these wars on that end. We now have multiple systems set up to deal with soldiers who are suicidal. We are trained monthly on these procedures.


Hahahahahahaha. The Army's suicide programs are utterly worthless. They can put out as many mandatory PowerPoints and ACE cards as they want, but all of the programs come down to one thing: if you're suicidal or feel someone else is, tell you/their chain of command.

And that doesn't do SHIAT. They'll pull the soldier off missions, take his weapons, stick him on DFAC duty and generally make him look like a crazy pussy in front of his whole unit. He'll have to attend a bunch of extra training and see the chaplain for X amount of weeks. He'll get red-flagged at de-mob and held over, put on medications, possibly have his clearance yanked or a mandatory MOS reclass. And all of this goes on his record so if he wants to get a job that's more than assistant manager at McDonalds, the employer will know all about it and also think he's crazy. And if he's in the Guard, he'd better switch units when he gets back because he'll the "the crazy guy" for the rest of time in the unit he's in.

Does any of that actually help a soldier who thinks his life is falling apart. Does ostracizing a soldier in front of his peers help him when he already feels alone? Does destroying his chances at a lot of good jobs in the future actually help when he thinks he has nothing positive to look forward to?

Of course not. And that's why none of the Army's programs work, and never will until they change those things. Feeling suicidal is a symptom caused by real negative changes in someone's life. It's the thing you turn to when you feel like real things in your life are going bad. Job loss, spousal problems, a buddy who's KIA, financial issues, nothing to come home to, etc. You can tell by the fact that the most suicides happen a few weeks into a deployment...and a few weeks before and after they go home. Soldiers who either know they have nothing to come home to right before they go back to the US, or soldiers who find their personal lives in a mess when they do come home (mainly due to cheating significant others, financial stress, job loss).

You can't really stop a suicide until you fix the bad stuff that lead to the person feeling that way. That's not something the Army wants to, or is probably even capable of, dealing with. The Army does what's best for the Army. And that makes sense in a lot of ways. We want a military full of functioning soldiers. But for the individual soldier, that often means the will just do what it can to minimize your impact on others and the mission, not actually help you. Take your weapons away and put you on TOC/DFAC duty so that you can be watched and aren't responsible for missions. Never mind that it makes you look like a pussy. Medicate that shiat out of you and push you out the door ASAP so that you become someone elses problem stateside. They don't want to fix the problem, they just want it gone. And that means they just want you gone.

Every approach I've seen to suicide prevention the Army has tried in the past 7 years is laughable. It's so obvious to see through them if you're at all familiar with people who have actually been suicidal, what sort of things brought it upon them, and what sort of things would actually help. And nothing the Army does actually helps. Their goal is to keep you alive and high on meds long enough to get medical boarded out of the military. That's it.
 
2012-12-28 07:28:27 AM  

Optimus Primate: I am a 7-year Navy vet and have never seen anyone else make these points (other than me). "Veteran" has become some kind of lifetime honor tag to be milked at every opportunity, when it was simply a job to most of us that were in it. Man, it's refreshing to see another human being who truly understands the actual dynamic here.


I love my fellow Reservists who barely show up for drill but their Facebook is plastered with military themes and pictures about how proud they are to serve, especially when Applebee's is having a military discount. Show up and pass a PT test? F*ck no.

I've been in for over a decade but never deployed. It's the greatest regret I'll have for the rest of my life. You can keep your apple pie, I just like being a soldier.
 
2012-12-28 07:30:03 AM  

vygramul: It says something about how few combat deaths we have had.


One Bad Apple: Yeah, sadly this is actually the preferred norm.


2 and Through.

More soldiers died in car crashes than in the entire operation Desert Storm.
 
2012-12-28 07:30:12 AM  

taurusowner: Hahahahahahaha. The Army's suicide programs are utterly worthless. They can put out as many mandatory PowerPoints and ACE cards as they want, but all of the programs come down to one thing: if you're suicidal or feel someone else is, tell you/their chain of command.

And that doesn't do SHIAT. They'll pull the soldier off missions, take his weapons, stick him on DFAC duty and generally make him look like a crazy pussy in front of his whole unit.


That's a leadership problem man. That's f*cking NCOs not doing their goddamn jobs.
 
2012-12-28 07:31:35 AM  
Sorry to be so jaded and I didn't read the comments yet (as I'm fairly certain someone mentioned this by now...), but I REALLY don't get the impression that the military is doing that much helpful or useful at all to combat this problem when their first priority is to collect "teh gunz" rather than get the person treated for God's sake... What a screwed up set of priorities. And they wonder why it's happening in the FIRST place AND getting worse...!
 
2012-12-28 07:32:57 AM  

Tat'dGreaser: That's a leadership problem man


It's far bigger than that, it's an us problem. If we put our collective foot down and demanded people in need be taken care of, the Army would be doing it so fast the stars on a general's shoulders would start spinning.
 
2012-12-28 07:35:25 AM  

WhyteRaven74: It's far bigger than that, it's an us problem. If we put our collective foot down and demanded people in need be taken care of, the Army would be doing it so fast the stars on a general's shoulders would start spinning.


Look, it's there. The resources are there, but if you have NCOs and officers treating someone who is suicidal as a leper than that's the wrong answer. Why the hell would we yell at people so far at the top that they have no idea what's going on? Leadership is where it has to start. If you're an NCO and you do that to a soldier in need, then turn in your f*cking stripes.
 
2012-12-28 07:36:42 AM  
These numbers are really, really under-reported.

Anything that the military can do to call a suicide something else, they will.

Not included, too, are suicide by drug/alcohol, suicide by maniacal vehicle crashes, suicide by cop, etc.

Further, nobody really has a handle on everything that these guys are dosed with while on active duty. We have a fine history of doping our guys up with amphetamines and other drugs as well as using them as test subjects for vaccines and other medicines.

Providing mental health care to those coming back is something of a nightmare for the providers.

Another thing...what's the difference between the number of tours for the average soldier during Viet Nam vs. Afghanistan/Iraq? I think the difference is outrageous.

Until those who make war fight wars themselves, there's not going to be an end. It's tragic and I cannot get over the idea that it's being done in my name with my resources.
 
2012-12-28 07:38:04 AM  
I find it amusing that today we find 12 month tours ridiculous when in not too distant history one went to war until the war was over or they were killed / nearly killed.

There are systems in place for suicidal soldiers, but soldiers are too ashamed to use the systems because it looks bad on their record, or to their superiors, or to their families, or to themselves. Fix the macho attitudes, fix the "mental health" stamp of death on military hospital documents and you'll start to fix your soldiers. However, one might suppose part of the problem lies in the fact that more soldiers are living from injuries that should have killed them, would have twenty years ago. Sure, you're keeping their brains active, but are you saving their lives?
 
2012-12-28 07:42:23 AM  
Perhaps offering impoverished kids the chance to go to college if they put their lives on the line for a pointless war may not be the most ethical standard.  When they get in they often regret it.
 
2012-12-28 07:51:05 AM  
A bipartisan group of 36 lawmakers is pushing for new rules allowing military commanders and mental health specialists to ask unstable troops whether they own any personal firearms

Eexcept that removing that gun will have little to no impact on a suicide. I lived with a suicide for 6 months.
(she was a rescue.)
I knew that any day that I could wake up and she would be dead. NOTHING that I did could prevent that.
Having her locked up? HAHAHAH She was way too smart for that. She would have found a way while locked up and medicated. She has EPIC skillz.

She isnt here anymore, but she has survived and is infinitely better. but removing the methods???
/csb

LOL a true suicide will find a way. trivially.
That being said, if you KNOW that a trooper is unstable, get them farking help already. Proper help.
Take their gun away? LOLOLOL
 
2012-12-28 07:51:15 AM  

gadian: I find it amusing that today we find 12 month tours ridiculous when in not too distant history one went to war until the war was over or they were killed / nearly killed.


amhist.ist.unomaha.edu

vietnamwarflight.com
 
2012-12-28 07:52:33 AM  

namatad: A bipartisan group of 36 lawmakers is pushing for new rules allowing military commanders and mental health specialists to ask unstable troops whether they own any personal firearms

Eexcept that removing that gun will have little to no impact on a suicide. I lived with a suicide for 6 months.
(she was a rescue.)
I knew that any day that I could wake up and she would be dead. NOTHING that I did could prevent that.
Having her locked up? HAHAHAH She was way too smart for that. She would have found a way while locked up and medicated. She has EPIC skillz.

She isnt here anymore, but she has survived and is infinitely better. but removing the methods???
/csb

LOL a true suicide will find a way. trivially.
That being said, if you KNOW that a trooper is unstable, get them farking help already. Proper help.
Take their gun away? LOLOLOL


I'd take their farking car away.
 
2012-12-28 07:52:48 AM  
BabwaWawa
no you voted them in etc..jackass

there appears to be a miscommunication, petunia.
let's try this again

I'm glad fewer americans are dying overseas for politics
but hey, you voted in the guys who keep sending them
the blame is also on you.

Try to keep your 4 year old off the computer if you feel like responding to a statement
 
2012-12-28 07:52:50 AM  
I feel like throwing up when I think about what it would take to break a trained soldier.
 
2012-12-28 07:53:33 AM  

PlatypusPuke: I feel like throwing up when I think about what it would take to break a trained soldier.


Bullying.
 
2012-12-28 07:55:09 AM  
We just need to spend more money on propaganda that dehumanizes those damn dirty cannibal terrorist scum.
 
2012-12-28 07:57:49 AM  

gadian: I find it amusing that today we find 12 month tours ridiculous when in not too distant history one went to war until the war was over or they were killed / nearly killed.


In those wars we were fighting an actual defined group, so there were victory conditions that soldiers could look forward to.

If we used the "War on Terror" as an actual war and said they were in for the duration, it is likely that no one enlisted today would live long enough to complete their tour.
 
2012-12-28 07:57:58 AM  

lewismarktwo: We just need to spend more money on propaganda that dehumanizes those damn dirty cannibal terrorist scum.


europeanhistory.boisestate.edu
 
2012-12-28 08:01:06 AM  

durbnpoisn: Now the point here is, what the bloody hell are we still doing in Iraq and Afghanistan?! The primary objectives (useless as they were), were accomplished. We should never have been there to start with.


primary objective of afghanistan
destroy the taliban
we kind of sort of not really succeeded in doing that and putting the old government back in place
1-10 years after leaving, the taliban will be right back in place.
a better solution to that objective would be to drone attack taliban training camps for the rest of eternity

primary objective of iraq
kill saddam
success!!
secondary was to not leave iraq a festering whole of anti-american hate
meh - time will tell, at least we mostly sort of kind of got out


It looks like we have returned to the 50s. killing from afar, rather than boots on the ground.
examples are Libya and Yemen. Dont get me started on the shiat-whole which is pakistan.

but yah, the worst thing that we did with those two wars is not have a draft. would have solved the problem of being there too long. the draft would have solidified the anti-war movement and ended both wars much much sooner. and they would have been much cheaper!!

WHY THE FARK were we paying consultants to do grunt work?? DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT


sigh
 
2012-12-28 08:02:12 AM  
When I see someone that's depressed, I sing "You're Only Human" by Billy Joel, and then they're happy again. I think this should be standard practice in the military as well.
 
2012-12-28 08:02:53 AM  

StoPPeRmobile: I'd take their farking car away.


lol
without chemically or physically restraining a suicide, there is nothing which can be done to prevent them from doing it when they are ready to do it.
therapy and support can go a long way to reducing the numbers, but removal of the means?? LOL
 
2012-12-28 08:03:26 AM  
I think this has been the case for quite a while.
 
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