Do you have adblock enabled?
If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Stars and Stripes)   There are now more soldier suicides than combat deaths   (stripes.com) divider line 231
    More: Sad, soldier suicides, Army Reserve, Department of the Army, combat deaths, soldiers, suicides  
•       •       •

7539 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Dec 2012 at 5:10 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



231 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

Archived thread
 
2012-12-27 09:07:48 PM  
It says something about how few combat deaths we have had.
 
2012-12-27 09:14:07 PM  
Yeah, sadly this is actually the preferred norm.
 
2012-12-27 09:32:18 PM  

One Bad Apple: Yeah, sadly this is actually the preferred norm.


True, but suicide numbers are way up.
 
2012-12-27 11:36:30 PM  
So you mean to tell me that when we have numerous advances in combat medicine we have more casualties than fatalities?  And that when you use the military as a police force for another country that it tends to demoralize the people that signed up to defend the US constitution?  I'll be damned....

/hope we can get our men and women home soon
 
2012-12-27 11:37:31 PM  
Antidepressants?

War on drugs.

You can't fight one.
 
2012-12-27 11:39:14 PM  

Runs_With_Scissors_:


True, but suicide numbers are way up.


Then we must do all we can to ramp up deaths from DUIs until they are the #1 cause
 
2012-12-27 11:41:54 PM  

queezyweezel: So you mean to tell me that when we have numerous advances in combat medicine we have more casualties than fatalities?  And that when you use the military as a police force for another country that it tends to demoralize the people that signed up to defend the US constitution?  I'll be damned....

/hope we can get our men and women home soon



Apparently those in charge are achieving their goals, otherwise, they'd quit.

Logically.

No?
 
2012-12-27 11:46:21 PM  
Warmongers won't care until it cuts into profits.
 
2012-12-27 11:50:02 PM  

One Bad Apple: Yeah, sadly this is actually the preferred norm.


I'd prefer they were tied at 0.
 
2012-12-27 11:55:40 PM  

RedPhoenix122: One Bad Apple: Yeah, sadly this is actually the preferred norm.

I'd prefer they were tied at 0.

 
2012-12-28 12:05:33 AM  

RedPhoenix122: One Bad Apple: Yeah, sadly this is actually the preferred norm.

I'd prefer they were tied at 0.



Now who can argue with that?
 
2012-12-28 12:06:19 AM  

Amos Quito: RedPhoenix122: One Bad Apple: Yeah, sadly this is actually the preferred norm.

I'd prefer they were tied at 0.


Now who can argue with that?


Halliburton?
 
2012-12-28 12:23:27 AM  
Who would have thought joining up while the US was engaged in a pointless war was a good idea?
 
2012-12-28 12:35:56 AM  
:(

and that's all I have to say about that.
 
2012-12-28 12:53:38 AM  

RedPhoenix122: Amos Quito: RedPhoenix122: One Bad Apple: Yeah, sadly this is actually the preferred norm.

I'd prefer they were tied at 0.


Now who can argue with that?

Halliburton?



Touché
 
2012-12-28 01:14:29 AM  
It's so terribly sad. It f*cking sucks.
 
2012-12-28 01:21:03 AM  

violentsalvation: It's so terribly sad. It f*cking sucks.


Damned malingerers always scamming out of duty.


Won't someone think of the busy work ?
 
2012-12-28 02:40:29 AM  

vygramul: It says something about how few combat deaths we have had.


Indeed it does.  Yet I'm still waiting for the public to catch on to the fact that suicides are up due (in large part) to the increased rotation of personnel through war zones.  Yes, battlefield medicine is an enormous contributor to this metric, as it is also a great service to medicine in general.  But such statements tend, on the surface, to discount the other harsh realities of our current system.

But the public won't catch on....until we bring back the draft and make wars a matter of nation-wide responsibility.
 
2012-12-28 03:01:37 AM  
Is the percentage of suicides up for all military? For combat troops? For civillians?
 
2012-12-28 04:00:43 AM  
On 9-11, I made just one prediction. That Rush Limbaugh would find a way to blame 9-11 on Bill Clinton. On cue I heard Rush Limbaugh spouting "9-11 is Bill Clinton's fault. Bill Clinton emasculated the military!!!". Well it was getting into Iraq so that Baby Bush could whatever his father that has emasculated our military. And Afghanistan isn't helping.
 
2012-12-28 05:20:19 AM  

doyner: Yet I'm still waiting for the public to catch on to the fact that suicides are up due (in large part) to the increased rotation of personnel through war zones.


I would say it's not just being rotated through a war-zone, but being pulled away from their regular lives for a year at a time, multiple times over the span of a few years. It really makes actually living your life very difficult or even impossible for some. Being pulled away from you wife, girlfriend, work, school, friends, etc and being stuck in Afghanistan while everyone at home keeps living is very jarring. Missing the births of kids, older children being distant to you for being gone so much. Wife and girlfriends cheating and finding other people. Finding it much harder to pursue a real career type job or complete a degree in a reasonable amount of time. Deploying multiple times just farks your whole life up for pretty much the whole span you're in the military. You really just gotta be willing to put your life on hold and try to pick it back up again when you're all done. Some people can handle it. Some cant'.

I would be willing to be real money that most (75%+) of those suicides involved some form of spousal (wife/husband, girlfriend/boyfriend) difficulties at home.

It's not just the combat that gets to you. It's knowing that you have nothing to come home to that really tears the rug out from under your life.
 
2012-12-28 05:22:16 AM  
Suicides have been pretty bad for some years now, both with the active troops and even the veterans after they get out. For some reason this issue get little attention, yet things like sexual assaults make headline news.
 
2012-12-28 05:31:00 AM  
I'm wondering how many of these are actually relationship related. Heard stories about woman marries young military guy for benefits, guy gets sent oversees, woman cheats or relationship falls apart because of time and distance away, guy tries to off himself or comes back batshiat crazy with guns.
 
2012-12-28 05:33:09 AM  
Soldiering is a gang of people killing armed and unarmed people. Indisputable. Unacceptable. How much self respect can you have when you are part of a murderous gang? Warriors and police do not act by virtue of bravery but act with the knowledge of being aided by the strength of their group. There is no bravery in a gang. I have no respect for them . Cowardice is the word I use to describe this behavior. Notice this fact : People never fight one on one without an audience. (unless they are drunk)
 
2012-12-28 05:33:22 AM  

Dull Cow Eyes: or comes back batshiat crazy with guns.


Can't say I've ever heard of that, ever. And I'm leaving for my third deployment soon.
 
2012-12-28 05:34:41 AM  

albertalaska: Soldiering is a gang of people killing armed and unarmed people. Indisputable. Unacceptable. How much self respect can you have when you are part of a murderous gang? Warriors and police do not act by virtue of bravery but act with the knowledge of being aided by the strength of their group. There is no bravery in a gang. I have no respect for them . Cowardice is the word I use to describe this behavior. Notice this fact : People never fight one on one without an audience. (unless they are drunk)


Too obvious. 2/10
 
2012-12-28 05:39:39 AM  
Mission accomplished?
 
2012-12-28 05:41:15 AM  
One almost has to wonder if these suicides might be getting a little help.
 
2012-12-28 05:50:50 AM  
Wars cause the rates for violence, crime, and abuse to increase. It wouldn't be surprising to see suicide and a number of other bad things on that list.
...But the military has to go to war, that is its primary purpose. Most wars are political, chosen by Congress.

Seems to me the politicians are on the hook for this one.
Soldiers need more support after the state is done chewing them up and spitting them out. Congress controls the purse strings.
 
2012-12-28 06:04:24 AM  

way south: Wars cause the rates for violence, crime, and abuse to increase. It wouldn't be surprising to see suicide and a number of other bad things on that list.
...But the military has to go to war, that is its primary purpose. Most wars are political, chosen by Congress.

Seems to me the politicians are on the hook for this one.
Soldiers need more support after the state is done chewing them up and spitting them out. Congress controls the purse strings.


The "boys in suits" (all sides, left and right, friend and enemy) are too busy with their own comfortable and incredibly luxurious lifestyles to even imagine how much pain their greed. stubbornness and penile insecurities inflict upon the people they are supposedly "serving" (serving? what a farkin' JOKE) yet we blindly honor these people and treat them like they are farkin' deities.

Heads of stone.
 
2012-12-28 06:12:15 AM  

taurusowner: albertalaska: Soldiering is a gang of people killing armed and unarmed people. Indisputable. Unacceptable. How much self respect can you have when you are part of a murderous gang? Warriors and police do not act by virtue of bravery but act with the knowledge of being aided by the strength of their group. There is no bravery in a gang. I have no respect for them . Cowardice is the word I use to describe this behavior. Notice this fact : People never fight one on one without an audience. (unless they are drunk)

Too obvious. 2/10


Too clueless. -3/10

Soldiers are hired killers. This is fact. Some of us accept this. Some don't.

It doesn't mean they aren't sometimes necessary, but pretending they are more than murderers does everybody an injustice, and is probably related to the increase in suicides. When you tell people they are heroes and then order them to act like villains, you get a disconnect.
 
2012-12-28 06:13:20 AM  
Death rates from suicide for the military-age population who AREN'T in uniform are actually higher than for service members. So there's that.
 
2012-12-28 06:16:48 AM  

bakarocket: taurusowner: albertalaska: Soldiering is a gang of people killing armed and unarmed people. Indisputable. Unacceptable. How much self respect can you have when you are part of a murderous gang? Warriors and police do not act by virtue of bravery but act with the knowledge of being aided by the strength of their group. There is no bravery in a gang. I have no respect for them . Cowardice is the word I use to describe this behavior. Notice this fact : People never fight one on one without an audience. (unless they are drunk)

Too obvious. 2/10

Too clueless. -3/10

Soldiers are hired killers. This is fact. Some of us accept this. Some don't.

It doesn't mean they aren't sometimes necessary, but pretending they are more than murderers does everybody an injustice, and is probably related to the increase in suicides. When you tell people they are heroes and then order them to act like villains, you get a disconnect.


Oh, look, it's a baby troll. How adorable! Don't scare it, and somebody get a towel to wipe the drool off its bib.
 
2012-12-28 06:20:51 AM  
I HATE IT WHN EPEOLPLE MIGIGN THE farkING TRRRPOTS
 
2012-12-28 06:20:54 AM  
GUN CONTROL WOULD SOLVE THIS!

We need to be told what to do by the same government that brought us to the point of bankruptcy today.
 
2012-12-28 06:29:30 AM  
If you think offing yourself will help society at large, or yourself, or whatever, be my guest. I don't care if you're service or not, you're obviously
a chicken shiat who can't handle life. Bye bye, don't care.
 
2012-12-28 06:30:44 AM  
Big supporter of suicide
not changing my tune because they're soldiers

I am glad that fewer americans are dying overseas for politics
but hey, you voted in the guys who keep sending them
the blame is also on you
 
2012-12-28 06:30:58 AM  
way south: Wars cause the rates for violence, crime, and abuse to increase. It wouldn't be surprising to see suicide and a number of other bad things on that list.
...But the military has to go to war, that is its primary purpose. Most wars are political, chosen by Congress.

Seems to me the politicians are on the hook for this one.
Soldiers need more support after the state is done chewing them up and spitting them out. Congress controls the purse strings.

I'm sorry, but no.

Enough is enough.

There is a myth in the USA that somehow US soldiers are not looked after. In a small number of cases, this is true--I wholehartedly support the notion that soldiers should get complete medical and psychological assistance needed to 'make them whole' to the extent possible after time spent in harm's way.

However, the general idea that in the USA soldiers are somehow 'forgotten' or underfunded is absolute and total nonsense. What we have forgotten is that soldiers are a diverse bunch, and like every diverse bunch there are bound to be all manner of situations and people. Enlisted personnel in particular often come from difficult circumstances and, frankly, low educational achievement coming in, and then we somehow expect that they're entitled to $80,000 middle management jobs when they come out. Bollocks.

it has been estimated that the total compensation of even the lowliest US soldier is now in excess of $100,00 per year equivalent when you consider

- modest pay
- housing benefits
- health benefits
- job training benefits
- mortgage preferences and benefits
- retirement / pension benefits
- job preference benefits, occasionally written into law
- subsidized "other stuff" benefits from the government (insurance, etc)
- subsidized benefits from non-government sources
- tax benefits

the idea that we need to "spend more money" on soldiers is laughable. our soliders in WW2 accomplished far more for far, far less. They also didn't expect a few enlisted years to mean that they are entitled to live on those laurels for the rest of their lives. want proof? have a look at the LIFETIME medical benefits now offered to some 18 year old who goes to afghanistan, serves for two years total, and never leaves the base (and, as one who has been to afghanistan, let me be the first to say that for a certain percentage of people, that is not that uncommon). Such a person may well end up consuming several million dollars of benefit over their lifetime, but if you dare point out this obvius staggering inefficiency, you Hate America and are Worse Than Hitler.

(be sure to ask me also about the sham that is the 9/11 compensation fund, especially "9/11 syndrome")

it's easy to blame congress and "anonymous suits." it's easy to demand "more money" as if the fact that we spend in inflation-adjusted terms far more now on individual soldiers than any other arms ever has in the history of the world. it's harder to look at what's really going on and make hard choices.

Before you flame me, have a viewing of the recent "Music of War" movie about soldiers in iraq. Look at them and you'll come to realize that these are very ordinary people who both as a matter of pragmatism (they needed a job) and patriotism (in some cases) answered the country's call. They serve honorably, but it's a bit much to expect them to come out of there in some idealized way that a lot of you expect them to.

Yes, suicides are a problem Access to physical and mental health resources is a must. But, those are already quite widespread--more than the knee jerk commenters here might suspect. But the answer is not just "let's just have another BS litmus test of Real Americannness (tm) based on whether you support throwing an unlimited number of resources towards a ridiculously overglorified and unrealistic caricature of the American soldier."
 
2012-12-28 06:31:04 AM  

drayno76: If you think offing yourself will help society at large, or yourself, or whatever, be my guest. I don't care if you're service or not, you're obviously
a chicken shiat who can't handle life. Bye bye, don't care.


dont lenfe wa mess.
 
2012-12-28 06:34:13 AM  
"Anyone DUMB ENOUGH.... to join the military...."
-Bill Hicks

Maybe a lot of effed-in-the-head people join the military? Maybe they'd be topping themselves no matter what job they chose?


99% of Bill Hicks' [so called] stand up comedy involved YELLING AT IMAGINARY people.

YELLING how his Libtard dove politics were so completely awesome, while his Libtard audience laughed along and mocked the imaginary Republicans that Bill was yelling at.

Fans of Left wing [so called] comedy are an xXtra special kind of self righteous twat.


I hope I've offended everyone.
 
2012-12-28 06:39:57 AM  

carnifex2005: Mission accomplished?


Well, yes. Baby Bush's feelings were hurt by people saying he wasn't a real man because Poppy(get well SOON) got him into the national guard instead of fighting in Vietnam so he made sure to prove that the National Guard makes BIG SACRIFICES.
 
2012-12-28 06:42:43 AM  

mbillips: Oh, look, it's a baby troll. How adorable! Don't scare it, and somebody get a towel to wipe the drool off its bib.


Fortunately for most of the posters on the internet, trolling is not defined as "disagreeing with other people".

When people are taught to believe in the sanctity of life and in a religion that despises the concept of murder, they will have issues when they are told to kill other people.
 
2012-12-28 06:44:10 AM  

bakarocket: mbillips: Oh, look, it's a baby troll. How adorable! Don't scare it, and somebody get a towel to wipe the drool off its bib.

Fortunately for most of the posters on the internet, trolling is not defined as "disagreeing with other people".

When people are taught to believe in the sanctity of life and in a religion that despises the concept of murder, they will have issues when they are told to kill other people.


ohg od oyou sound like one ot othose "Barefott Gen "loves. sometimes s a fightn fins't escabpale.
 
2012-12-28 06:44:29 AM  

Amos Quito: RedPhoenix122: One Bad Apple: Yeah, sadly this is actually the preferred norm.

I'd prefer they were tied at 0.


Now who can argue with that?


When I was in the military I knew a few real douchebags.

I'm indifferent to the method of their demise, but fark those guys.
 
2012-12-28 06:44:41 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: I HATE IT WHN EPEOLPLE MIGIGN THE farkING TRRRPOTS


You're making more sense than usual today.
 
2012-12-28 06:47:06 AM  

Bomb Head Mohammed: the idea that we need to "spend more money" on soldiers is laughable


Tell that to a veteran who has no place to live.
 
2012-12-28 06:47:58 AM  
As I understand it, it's due to the military having to accept people with mental issues in order to meet their recruitment quotas. Same reason we have so many homeless vets on the street- recruitment of people who were likely to become homeless without the military,
 
2012-12-28 06:48:02 AM  

Kevin72: AverageAmericanGuy: I HATE IT WHN EPEOLPLE MIGIGN THE farkING TRRRPOTS

You're making more sense than usual today.


That's JUST what a migigner would say.

Please think of the trrrpots.
 
2012-12-28 06:49:36 AM  

ghare: Same reason we have so many homeless vets on the street-


Actually a lot of them have no issues before service, after is another issue.
 
2012-12-28 06:51:03 AM  

WhyteRaven74: Bomb Head Mohammed: the idea that we need to "spend more money" on soldiers is laughable

Tell that to a veteran who has no place to live.


Seriously, there are a boatload of programs in place for those people. But, if they're homeless, they likely have severe mental problems, which of course does make it hard for them to comprehend that the help is there, and/or hard to apply even if they understand that they can.

But it's not for lack of funding, as far as I can tell.
 
2012-12-28 06:51:56 AM  
Suicide centers are needed. Just make it easy, so it doesn't involve a school or theater. If you want to feel better, we'll even charge you a small fee for your offing. Just get off this ride if you don't like it.
 
2012-12-28 06:52:47 AM  
I heard on NPR last week that the majority of these suicides are by soldiers that have NOT seen combat.
 
2012-12-28 06:53:12 AM  

ghare: As I understand it, it's due to the military having to accept people with mental issues in order to meet their recruitment quotas. Same reason we have so many homeless vets on the street- recruitment of people who were likely to become homeless without the military,


"As you know, you go to war with the Army you have. They're not the Army you might want or wish to have at a later time." Rumsfeld, D.
 
2012-12-28 06:53:34 AM  

WhyteRaven74: ghare: Same reason we have so many homeless vets on the street-

Actually a lot of them have no issues before service, after is another issue.


citation? I mean, seriously. How do you know this?
 
2012-12-28 06:55:11 AM  

Runs_With_Scissors_: One Bad Apple: Yeah, sadly this is actually the preferred norm.

True, but suicide numbers are way up.


TFA has no information on how the suicide rate in the military matches up with non-military suicide rates in the US for the same age groups.  Without that context, it's a useless statistic.
 
2012-12-28 06:55:49 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: arefott Gen


AverageAmericanGuy: bakarocket: mbillips: Oh, look, it's a baby troll. How adorable! Don't scare it, and somebody get a towel to wipe the drool off its bib.

Fortunately for most of the posters on the internet, trolling is not defined as "disagreeing with other people".

When people are taught to believe in the sanctity of life and in a religion that despises the concept of murder, they will have issues when they are told to kill other people.

ohg od oyou sound like one ot othose "Barefott Gen "loves. sometimes s a fightn fins't escabpale.


I'm so confused by everything in this post.
 
2012-12-28 06:56:56 AM  

ghare: WhyteRaven74: ghare: Same reason we have so many homeless vets on the street-

Actually a lot of them have no issues before service, after is another issue.

citation? I mean, seriously. How do you know this?


Because they were 18, graduating with a 2.0 and were well on their way to mediocrity when the Feds swooped into the schools and promised them a life of glory and hot women. So you really need a citation? It's not a difficult conclusion, they were full of potential on their way to the community college down the street.
 
2012-12-28 06:58:35 AM  

Big Ramifications: 99% of Bill Hicks' [so called] stand up comedy involved YELLING AT IMAGINARY people.


On the off-chance that you're serious, are you talking about the imaginary anti-abortion, creationist, marketing, anti-drug, or anti-intellectualist people? Or figments nobody has heard from since, like Rush Limbaugh? Malls?
 
2012-12-28 06:58:47 AM  
Only about 500 total deaths in a year including suicides, with an active war going on.

... and we're complaining about this? Because by the standards of basically everyone else ever that makes us statistically more invincible than even the mythological figures.

//Not that suicide counseling isn't needed, but... suicide counseling is provided. So not much more we can do there.
 
2012-12-28 07:02:00 AM  

Bomb Head Mohammed: way south: Wars cause the rates for violence, crime, and abuse to increase. It wouldn't be surprising to see suicide and a number of other bad things on that list.
...But the military has to go to war, that is its primary purpose. Most wars are political, chosen by Congress.

Seems to me the politicians are on the hook for this one.
Soldiers need more support after the state is done chewing them up and spitting them out. Congress controls the purse strings.

I'm sorry, but no.

Enough is enough.

There is a myth in the USA that somehow US soldiers are not looked after. In a small number of cases, this is true--I wholehartedly support the notion that soldiers should get complete medical and psychological assistance needed to 'make them whole' to the extent possible after time spent in harm's way.

However, the general idea that in the USA soldiers are somehow 'forgotten' or underfunded is absolute and total nonsense. What we have forgotten is that soldiers are a diverse bunch, and like every diverse bunch there are bound to be all manner of situations and people. Enlisted personnel in particular often come from difficult circumstances and, frankly, low educational achievement coming in, and then we somehow expect that they're entitled to $80,000 middle management jobs when they come out. Bollocks.

it has been estimated that the total compensation of even the lowliest US soldier is now in excess of $100,00 per year equivalent when you consider

- modest pay
- housing benefits
- health benefits
- job training benefits
- mortgage preferences and benefits
- retirement / pension benefits
- job preference benefits, occasionally written into law
- subsidized "other stuff" benefits from the government (insurance, etc)
- subsidized benefits from non-government sources
- tax benefits

the idea that we need to "spend more money" on soldiers is laughable. our soliders in WW2 accomplished far more for far, far less. They also didn't expect a few enlisted years to mean tha ...


Then I recant my earlier accusation of the suits (because often the obvious solution is not a solution at all, and that's just how life works).
...But i do so on the condition that we recognize there is a problem.
Soldiers today face longer deployments than in WWII and work under more stressful conditions. Home life is not the same as it was in the fifties. There are different social pressures they get exposed to by the Internet, and the economy has been less than stellar. Veterans are a group that attracts bad mojo, and this is a proven statistical.

Understanding that we've got an unacceptable situation in need of a specific response, is there an alternative?

/because the normal answer to a difficult social problem is to dump money into related services.
/I don't see it as flag waving when we do it for any other issue. Doing stuff costs money.
 
2012-12-28 07:03:18 AM  

ghare: Seriously, there are a boatload of programs in place for those people.


And yet veterans keep losing their homes. There are no programs that keep them in their homes when they can't find work or can't work for one reason or another. And there's precious little to get them off the streets, and many of the homeless aren't mentally ill at all. Some who are perceived as such are just angry at the world that after what they did there was nowhere to turn to for help..

citation? I mean, seriously. How do you know this?

The last several years' worth of news stories about vets having issues? Not everyone who joins the military is someone going nowhere and with no prospects. When you read stories about people with college degrees who are falling apart the seams because they can't find a job or hold a job and thus can't keep a place to live or find a new place to live even if they're scraping by, it doesn't take long to figure out that if you're reading about one such person there's going to be a ton more you aren't reading about.
 
2012-12-28 07:03:45 AM  

Jim_Callahan: Only about 500 total deaths in a year including suicides, with an active war going on.


I find it strange (amusing?) that they didn't call Korea or Viet Nam a war but they call these two occupations wars. But then they call everything wars now. Just like they call every act of violence terrorism. It's sensational!
 
2012-12-28 07:05:21 AM  

natas6.0: I am glad that fewer americans are dying overseas for politics
but hey, you voted in the guys who keep sending them
the blame is also on you


No, you voted them in.  The blame is on you.  If it wasn't for you, we wouldn't be in this mess.  Jackass.
 
2012-12-28 07:06:31 AM  

Jim_Callahan: Only about 500 total deaths in a year including suicides, with an active war going on.

... and we're complaining about this? Because by the standards of basically everyone else ever that makes us statistically more invincible than even the mythological figures.


If children have less chance of dying than ever before in history, should we not worry about the ones that still do? Isn't there something wrong with counting suicides among war casualties (TFA doesn't even talk about those who've left active duty)?

/anyway low death counts are easier to accomplish if the war isn't fought on your soil
 
2012-12-28 07:07:27 AM  
I will give it to the Army, they finally got their head out of their collective asses and came up with a comprehensive program on dealing with the mental health side of combat. They weren't prepared for these wars on that end. We now have multiple systems set up to deal with soldiers who are suicidal. We are trained monthly on these procedures.

The real issue? 12+ month tours is f*cking ridiculous. I don't care how tough you are, a couple of these could break you. If you decide to be a career soldier, you're going to see combat tours multiple times for a year at a pop. The Marines have a way better system of shorter tours. Soldiers sometimes like being soldiers, they want to stay in as a lifer but these multiple year long tours are killing them. Literally.
 
2012-12-28 07:11:25 AM  

Amos Quito: Antidepressants?

War on drugs.

You can't fight one.


You have to take a 6 month supply of any drugs you're taking with you, and you have to have a written plan for how to get the remaining supply when your initial one runs out. It is a huge hassle.
 
2012-12-28 07:11:45 AM  

Ilmarinen: Big Ramifications: 99% of Bill Hicks' [so called] stand up comedy involved YELLING AT IMAGINARY people.

On the off-chance that you're serious, are you talking about the imaginary anti-abortion, creationist, marketing, anti-drug, or anti-intellectualist people? Or figments nobody has heard from since, like Rush Limbaugh? Malls?

~
~
Shiat for brains. How about thinking for a bit before rushing to get but hurt.

He's yelling at them as if they were in the audience. Yelling at these imaginary people like they just heckled him. It was bizarre. I'm not saying these people don't exist.

I saw a [so called] best of Bill Hicks and it was terrible stuff. I mean, most of the time there was no punch line. Just "THIS IS WHAT REPUBLICANS BELIEVE AND I AM YELLING AND I AM FUNNY YAARGH!!!"
 
2012-12-28 07:12:15 AM  
Let me make two nifty points here. One for real, the other from a novel...


1. A friend of mine was in Iraq at the onset of the war. He was initially trained as a navigator on a plane. But that soon turned into "spot targets on the ground for us to blow the fark up." We were talking one day, and he was visibly shaken by the whole thing because, he would call in the coordinates of a target, and a few seconds later, everyone there was dead. "This isn't a farking video game, man. I don't know how many people I sentenced to death."

2. Lord of the Rings. At one point Faramir looks down at a dead soldier that had just fallen off an oliphant. (Here I must paraphrase, as I don't remember the exact quote) "What made this person leave their home and come here to fight? Is this person inherently evil? Does he have a family that is awaiting his return?"


Now the point here is, what the bloody hell are we still doing in Iraq and Afghanistan?! The primary objectives (useless as they were), were accomplished. We should never have been there to start with. And no one has provided any sort of reasonable explanation as to WHY we are still there now - and we can't find enough money to prevent economic collapse at the end of this year.

There's some good rambling for ya... That was like throwing 15 balls in the air in order that someone might catch just one of them.
 
2012-12-28 07:12:51 AM  

Babwa Wawa: No, you voted them in.  The blame is on you.  If it wasn't for you, we wouldn't be in this mess.  Jackass.


Actually, given our choices, we voted in the candidate who got us out of Iraq and is getting us out of Afghanistan and didn't invade Iran or Syria. There isn't a whole lot else as voters we could have done.
 
2012-12-28 07:14:02 AM  
we know why twewer in afhgentisan. 9/11.

IRawq? I duno.
 
2012-12-28 07:19:30 AM  
its like a surplus!

:D
 
2012-12-28 07:19:50 AM  

Amos Quito: Antidepressants?

.


Ex was a PA at the helichopper unit at Ft. Wainwright. When they deployed in 2005 they were handing that shiat out like it was candy.

So yeah.
 
2012-12-28 07:21:56 AM  

Bomb Head Mohammed: way south: Wars cause the rates for violence, crime, and abuse to increase. It wouldn't be surprising to see suicide and a number of other bad things on that list.
...But the military has to go to war, that is its primary purpose. Most wars are political, chosen by Congress.

Seems to me the politicians are on the hook for this one.
Soldiers need more support after the state is done chewing them up and spitting them out. Congress controls the purse strings.

I'm sorry, but no.

Enough is enough.

There is a myth in the USA that somehow US soldiers are not looked after. In a small number of cases, this is true--I wholehartedly support the notion that soldiers should get complete medical and psychological assistance needed to 'make them whole' to the extent possible after time spent in harm's way.

However, the general idea that in the USA soldiers are somehow 'forgotten' or underfunded is absolute and total nonsense. What we have forgotten is that soldiers are a diverse bunch, and like every diverse bunch there are bound to be all manner of situations and people. Enlisted personnel in particular often come from difficult circumstances and, frankly, low educational achievement coming in, and then we somehow expect that they're entitled to $80,000 middle management jobs when they come out. Bollocks.

it has been estimated that the total compensation of even the lowliest US soldier is now in excess of $100,00 per year equivalent when you consider

- modest pay
- housing benefits
- health benefits
- job training benefits
- mortgage preferences and benefits
- retirement / pension benefits
- job preference benefits, occasionally written into law
- subsidized "other stuff" benefits from the government (insurance, etc)
- subsidized benefits from non-government sources
- tax benefits

the idea that we need to "spend more money" on soldiers is laughable. our soliders in WW2 accomplished far more for far, far less. They also didn't expect a few enlisted years to mean tha ...


I am a 7-year Navy vet and have never seen anyone else make these points (other than me). "Veteran" has become some kind of lifetime honor tag to be milked at every opportunity, when it was simply a job to most of us that were in it. Man, it's refreshing to see another human being who truly understands the actual dynamic here.
 
2012-12-28 07:22:01 AM  

durbnpoisn: Let me make two nifty points here. One for real, the other from a novel...


1. A friend of mine was in Iraq at the onset of the war. He was initially trained as a navigator on a plane. But that soon turned into "spot targets on the ground for us to blow the fark up." We were talking one day, and he was visibly shaken by the whole thing because, he would call in the coordinates of a target, and a few seconds later, everyone there was dead. "This isn't a farking video game, man. I don't know how many people I sentenced to death."

2. Lord of the Rings. At one point Faramir looks down at a dead soldier that had just fallen off an oliphant. (Here I must paraphrase, as I don't remember the exact quote) "What made this person leave their home and come here to fight? Is this person inherently evil? Does he have a family that is awaiting his return?"


Now the point here is, what the bloody hell are we still doing in Iraq and Afghanistan?! The primary objectives (useless as they were), were accomplished. We should never have been there to start with. And no one has provided any sort of reasonable explanation as to WHY we are still there now - and we can't find enough money to prevent economic collapse at the end of this year.

There's some good rambling for ya... That was like throwing 15 balls in the air in order that someone might catch just one of them.



And yet, it was a good and thoughtful post.
 
2012-12-28 07:22:49 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: I HATE IT WHN EPEOLPLE MIGIGN THE farkING TRRRPOTS


Drunk, functionaly retarded, or some kind of meta-troll?
 
2012-12-28 07:24:52 AM  

Optimus Primate: "Veteran" has become some kind of lifetime honor tag to be milked at every opportunity,


In the case of combat vets, what there is is nowhere near enough. If some need to be provided for for the rest of their lives, so be it, if we want to keep making them, we can damn well pay for what they need after.
 
2012-12-28 07:25:52 AM  

MythDragon: Drunk, functionaly retarded, or some kind of meta-troll?


I'm gonna go with yes.
 
2012-12-28 07:28:01 AM  

Tat'dGreaser: I will give it to the Army, they finally got their head out of their collective asses and came up with a comprehensive program on dealing with the mental health side of combat. They weren't prepared for these wars on that end. We now have multiple systems set up to deal with soldiers who are suicidal. We are trained monthly on these procedures.


Hahahahahahaha. The Army's suicide programs are utterly worthless. They can put out as many mandatory PowerPoints and ACE cards as they want, but all of the programs come down to one thing: if you're suicidal or feel someone else is, tell you/their chain of command.

And that doesn't do SHIAT. They'll pull the soldier off missions, take his weapons, stick him on DFAC duty and generally make him look like a crazy pussy in front of his whole unit. He'll have to attend a bunch of extra training and see the chaplain for X amount of weeks. He'll get red-flagged at de-mob and held over, put on medications, possibly have his clearance yanked or a mandatory MOS reclass. And all of this goes on his record so if he wants to get a job that's more than assistant manager at McDonalds, the employer will know all about it and also think he's crazy. And if he's in the Guard, he'd better switch units when he gets back because he'll the "the crazy guy" for the rest of time in the unit he's in.

Does any of that actually help a soldier who thinks his life is falling apart. Does ostracizing a soldier in front of his peers help him when he already feels alone? Does destroying his chances at a lot of good jobs in the future actually help when he thinks he has nothing positive to look forward to?

Of course not. And that's why none of the Army's programs work, and never will until they change those things. Feeling suicidal is a symptom caused by real negative changes in someone's life. It's the thing you turn to when you feel like real things in your life are going bad. Job loss, spousal problems, a buddy who's KIA, financial issues, nothing to come home to, etc. You can tell by the fact that the most suicides happen a few weeks into a deployment...and a few weeks before and after they go home. Soldiers who either know they have nothing to come home to right before they go back to the US, or soldiers who find their personal lives in a mess when they do come home (mainly due to cheating significant others, financial stress, job loss).

You can't really stop a suicide until you fix the bad stuff that lead to the person feeling that way. That's not something the Army wants to, or is probably even capable of, dealing with. The Army does what's best for the Army. And that makes sense in a lot of ways. We want a military full of functioning soldiers. But for the individual soldier, that often means the will just do what it can to minimize your impact on others and the mission, not actually help you. Take your weapons away and put you on TOC/DFAC duty so that you can be watched and aren't responsible for missions. Never mind that it makes you look like a pussy. Medicate that shiat out of you and push you out the door ASAP so that you become someone elses problem stateside. They don't want to fix the problem, they just want it gone. And that means they just want you gone.

Every approach I've seen to suicide prevention the Army has tried in the past 7 years is laughable. It's so obvious to see through them if you're at all familiar with people who have actually been suicidal, what sort of things brought it upon them, and what sort of things would actually help. And nothing the Army does actually helps. Their goal is to keep you alive and high on meds long enough to get medical boarded out of the military. That's it.
 
2012-12-28 07:28:27 AM  

Optimus Primate: I am a 7-year Navy vet and have never seen anyone else make these points (other than me). "Veteran" has become some kind of lifetime honor tag to be milked at every opportunity, when it was simply a job to most of us that were in it. Man, it's refreshing to see another human being who truly understands the actual dynamic here.


I love my fellow Reservists who barely show up for drill but their Facebook is plastered with military themes and pictures about how proud they are to serve, especially when Applebee's is having a military discount. Show up and pass a PT test? F*ck no.

I've been in for over a decade but never deployed. It's the greatest regret I'll have for the rest of my life. You can keep your apple pie, I just like being a soldier.
 
2012-12-28 07:30:03 AM  

vygramul: It says something about how few combat deaths we have had.


One Bad Apple: Yeah, sadly this is actually the preferred norm.


2 and Through.

More soldiers died in car crashes than in the entire operation Desert Storm.
 
2012-12-28 07:30:12 AM  

taurusowner: Hahahahahahaha. The Army's suicide programs are utterly worthless. They can put out as many mandatory PowerPoints and ACE cards as they want, but all of the programs come down to one thing: if you're suicidal or feel someone else is, tell you/their chain of command.

And that doesn't do SHIAT. They'll pull the soldier off missions, take his weapons, stick him on DFAC duty and generally make him look like a crazy pussy in front of his whole unit.


That's a leadership problem man. That's f*cking NCOs not doing their goddamn jobs.
 
2012-12-28 07:31:35 AM  
Sorry to be so jaded and I didn't read the comments yet (as I'm fairly certain someone mentioned this by now...), but I REALLY don't get the impression that the military is doing that much helpful or useful at all to combat this problem when their first priority is to collect "teh gunz" rather than get the person treated for God's sake... What a screwed up set of priorities. And they wonder why it's happening in the FIRST place AND getting worse...!
 
2012-12-28 07:32:57 AM  

Tat'dGreaser: That's a leadership problem man


It's far bigger than that, it's an us problem. If we put our collective foot down and demanded people in need be taken care of, the Army would be doing it so fast the stars on a general's shoulders would start spinning.
 
2012-12-28 07:35:25 AM  

WhyteRaven74: It's far bigger than that, it's an us problem. If we put our collective foot down and demanded people in need be taken care of, the Army would be doing it so fast the stars on a general's shoulders would start spinning.


Look, it's there. The resources are there, but if you have NCOs and officers treating someone who is suicidal as a leper than that's the wrong answer. Why the hell would we yell at people so far at the top that they have no idea what's going on? Leadership is where it has to start. If you're an NCO and you do that to a soldier in need, then turn in your f*cking stripes.
 
2012-12-28 07:36:42 AM  
These numbers are really, really under-reported.

Anything that the military can do to call a suicide something else, they will.

Not included, too, are suicide by drug/alcohol, suicide by maniacal vehicle crashes, suicide by cop, etc.

Further, nobody really has a handle on everything that these guys are dosed with while on active duty. We have a fine history of doping our guys up with amphetamines and other drugs as well as using them as test subjects for vaccines and other medicines.

Providing mental health care to those coming back is something of a nightmare for the providers.

Another thing...what's the difference between the number of tours for the average soldier during Viet Nam vs. Afghanistan/Iraq? I think the difference is outrageous.

Until those who make war fight wars themselves, there's not going to be an end. It's tragic and I cannot get over the idea that it's being done in my name with my resources.
 
2012-12-28 07:38:04 AM  
I find it amusing that today we find 12 month tours ridiculous when in not too distant history one went to war until the war was over or they were killed / nearly killed.

There are systems in place for suicidal soldiers, but soldiers are too ashamed to use the systems because it looks bad on their record, or to their superiors, or to their families, or to themselves. Fix the macho attitudes, fix the "mental health" stamp of death on military hospital documents and you'll start to fix your soldiers. However, one might suppose part of the problem lies in the fact that more soldiers are living from injuries that should have killed them, would have twenty years ago. Sure, you're keeping their brains active, but are you saving their lives?
 
2012-12-28 07:42:23 AM  
Perhaps offering impoverished kids the chance to go to college if they put their lives on the line for a pointless war may not be the most ethical standard.  When they get in they often regret it.
 
2012-12-28 07:51:05 AM  
A bipartisan group of 36 lawmakers is pushing for new rules allowing military commanders and mental health specialists to ask unstable troops whether they own any personal firearms

Eexcept that removing that gun will have little to no impact on a suicide. I lived with a suicide for 6 months.
(she was a rescue.)
I knew that any day that I could wake up and she would be dead. NOTHING that I did could prevent that.
Having her locked up? HAHAHAH She was way too smart for that. She would have found a way while locked up and medicated. She has EPIC skillz.

She isnt here anymore, but she has survived and is infinitely better. but removing the methods???
/csb

LOL a true suicide will find a way. trivially.
That being said, if you KNOW that a trooper is unstable, get them farking help already. Proper help.
Take their gun away? LOLOLOL
 
2012-12-28 07:51:15 AM  

gadian: I find it amusing that today we find 12 month tours ridiculous when in not too distant history one went to war until the war was over or they were killed / nearly killed.


amhist.ist.unomaha.edu

vietnamwarflight.com
 
2012-12-28 07:52:33 AM  

namatad: A bipartisan group of 36 lawmakers is pushing for new rules allowing military commanders and mental health specialists to ask unstable troops whether they own any personal firearms

Eexcept that removing that gun will have little to no impact on a suicide. I lived with a suicide for 6 months.
(she was a rescue.)
I knew that any day that I could wake up and she would be dead. NOTHING that I did could prevent that.
Having her locked up? HAHAHAH She was way too smart for that. She would have found a way while locked up and medicated. She has EPIC skillz.

She isnt here anymore, but she has survived and is infinitely better. but removing the methods???
/csb

LOL a true suicide will find a way. trivially.
That being said, if you KNOW that a trooper is unstable, get them farking help already. Proper help.
Take their gun away? LOLOLOL


I'd take their farking car away.
 
2012-12-28 07:52:48 AM  
BabwaWawa
no you voted them in etc..jackass

there appears to be a miscommunication, petunia.
let's try this again

I'm glad fewer americans are dying overseas for politics
but hey, you voted in the guys who keep sending them
the blame is also on you.

Try to keep your 4 year old off the computer if you feel like responding to a statement
 
2012-12-28 07:52:50 AM  
I feel like throwing up when I think about what it would take to break a trained soldier.
 
2012-12-28 07:53:33 AM  

PlatypusPuke: I feel like throwing up when I think about what it would take to break a trained soldier.


Bullying.
 
2012-12-28 07:55:09 AM  
We just need to spend more money on propaganda that dehumanizes those damn dirty cannibal terrorist scum.
 
2012-12-28 07:57:49 AM  

gadian: I find it amusing that today we find 12 month tours ridiculous when in not too distant history one went to war until the war was over or they were killed / nearly killed.


In those wars we were fighting an actual defined group, so there were victory conditions that soldiers could look forward to.

If we used the "War on Terror" as an actual war and said they were in for the duration, it is likely that no one enlisted today would live long enough to complete their tour.
 
2012-12-28 07:57:58 AM  

lewismarktwo: We just need to spend more money on propaganda that dehumanizes those damn dirty cannibal terrorist scum.


europeanhistory.boisestate.edu
 
2012-12-28 08:01:06 AM  

durbnpoisn: Now the point here is, what the bloody hell are we still doing in Iraq and Afghanistan?! The primary objectives (useless as they were), were accomplished. We should never have been there to start with.


primary objective of afghanistan
destroy the taliban
we kind of sort of not really succeeded in doing that and putting the old government back in place
1-10 years after leaving, the taliban will be right back in place.
a better solution to that objective would be to drone attack taliban training camps for the rest of eternity

primary objective of iraq
kill saddam
success!!
secondary was to not leave iraq a festering whole of anti-american hate
meh - time will tell, at least we mostly sort of kind of got out


It looks like we have returned to the 50s. killing from afar, rather than boots on the ground.
examples are Libya and Yemen. Dont get me started on the shiat-whole which is pakistan.

but yah, the worst thing that we did with those two wars is not have a draft. would have solved the problem of being there too long. the draft would have solidified the anti-war movement and ended both wars much much sooner. and they would have been much cheaper!!

WHY THE FARK were we paying consultants to do grunt work?? DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT


sigh
 
2012-12-28 08:02:12 AM  
When I see someone that's depressed, I sing "You're Only Human" by Billy Joel, and then they're happy again. I think this should be standard practice in the military as well.
 
2012-12-28 08:02:53 AM  

StoPPeRmobile: I'd take their farking car away.


lol
without chemically or physically restraining a suicide, there is nothing which can be done to prevent them from doing it when they are ready to do it.
therapy and support can go a long way to reducing the numbers, but removal of the means?? LOL
 
2012-12-28 08:03:26 AM  
I think this has been the case for quite a while.
 
2012-12-28 08:03:53 AM  

Tat'dGreaser: Why the hell would we yell at people so far at the top that they have no idea what's going on? Leadership is where it has to start. If you're an NCO and you do that to a soldier in need, then turn in your f*cking stripes


If they don't know what is going on they shouldn't be there.
 
2012-12-28 08:06:14 AM  

namatad: 1-10 years after leaving, the taliban will be right back in place.


The Taliban never left, they are in place now. Who do you think has been maiming and disfiguring all those schoolgirls?
 
2012-12-28 08:07:38 AM  

natas6.0: but hey, you voted in the guys who keep sending them
the blame is also on you.


Please to explain how the holy f*ck you know who I voted for.
 
2012-12-28 08:08:48 AM  
BMFPitt If we used the "War on Terror" as an actual war and said they were in for the duration, it is likely that no one enlisted today would live long enough to complete their tour.

I'd say if there is no criteria for winning, no definitive conditions of winning, and no actual enemy force then there should be no men sent into combat. Lots of bombs dropped from lots of planes and an odd shaped cloud or two perhaps, hypothetically, depending on the situation, but I don't think a nation should waste soldiers if there are no actual parameters of war.

As it is, given the exponential increase of war deaths until the end of WWII, think of all the soldiers that didn't get the benefit of only a year in combat before a respite. A year in combat is a year no matter the technology. Our soldiers have it much, much better in that regard and yet they're still offing themselves. I really don't think the length combat tours are the source of the problem.

Soldiers kill themselves when they get home. The problem is the on/off button which the US military (or any military, ever) hasn't made standard issue.
 
2012-12-28 08:15:02 AM  

Mugato: Actually, given our choices, we voted in the candidate who got us out of Iraq and is getting us out of Afghanistan and didn't invade Iran or Syria. There isn't a whole lot else as voters we could have done.


Well, we could hold our executives responsible for acts of war.  Drone strikes, etc, etc.

but that's not really the point of my reply.  My reply was to natas6.0, who is displaying his ignorance quite proudly.  For him (and people like him), everyone else is to blame.  In natas6.0's world, only he is right, and everybody else is an idiot and has done something wrong, regardless of their actions.

It's the type of hubris only found in extraordinarily stupid people.
 
2012-12-28 08:16:30 AM  

namatad: StoPPeRmobile: I'd take their farking car away.

lol
without chemically or physically restraining a suicide, there is nothing which can be done to prevent them from doing it when they are ready to do it.
therapy and support can go a long way to reducing the numbers, but removal of the means?? LOL


Man, you guys sure get defensive when I mention taking away your drivable penis substitutes.

You don't have a right to your death mobiles.

Let's try preventing the slaughter of 30,000 - 50,000 lives a year on the roads.
 
2012-12-28 08:19:34 AM  
Is this because we stopped putting the ten commandments on the rifle barrels?
 
2012-12-28 08:20:01 AM  
Oh, and is someone tracking these "Drone Strike" pilots?
 
2012-12-28 08:22:04 AM  

CarnySaur: When I see someone that's depressed, I sing "You're Only Human" by Billy Joel, and then they're happy again. I think this should be standard practice in the military as well.


That's good, but my solution to depression...puppy therapy.  Sit in the middle of a bunch of puppies jumping around and it's nearly impossible to be sad.
 
2012-12-28 08:24:46 AM  

liquidpoo: Suicides have been pretty bad for some years now, both with the active troops and even the veterans after they get out. For some reason this issue get little attention, yet things like sexual assaults make headline news.


Yeah victims of violent rape have all the luck. If you were violently raped, you would be all, "this sucks," until your story hit the press, then you'd be all, "awesome, and best of all I'm stealing attention from suicides. Sweet!"
 
2012-12-28 08:26:39 AM  

StoPPeRmobile: Let's try preventing the slaughter of 30,000 - 50,000 lives a year on the roads.


In 22 of the last 30 years, the rate of traffic fatalities has dropped.  We haven't had a lower rate of traffic fatalities since World War 1.  Hell, the sheer number of fatalities has dropped 25% even without factoring in population over the last 10 years.  There haven't been 50,000 traffic deaths in the US since 1980, for Christ's sake.

TL;DR:  What the hell are you talking about?

i.imgur.com
 
2012-12-28 08:29:20 AM  

WhyteRaven74: Optimus Primate: "Veteran" has become some kind of lifetime honor tag to be milked at every opportunity,

In the case of combat vets, what there is is nowhere near enough. If some need to be provided for for the rest of their lives, so be it, if we want to keep making them, we can damn well pay for what they need after.


Absolutely. If you are an actual Combat Vet, god bless you - and may the benefits and honors flow like a river. During the Gulf War Years, 90 percent of all active duty servicemen did nothing but work a really sh*tty job in one of the most poorly-managed comapnies in the USA. I just never saw the big deal. I served honorably then got out and never really looked back.
 
2012-12-28 08:29:57 AM  
Military suicide rates doubled between 2001 and 2006, and continued upwards since, going up 25% last year.

We have a problem. Related to the fact that, despite what Hollywood usually implies, going to war will...screw you up. Badly.
 
2012-12-28 08:30:00 AM  

taurusowner: Dull Cow Eyes: or comes back batshiat crazy with guns.

Can't say I've ever heard of that, ever. And I'm leaving for my third deployment soon.


Thank you for your service.
Please come back in one piece and don't commit suicide. The irreverant geniuses and morans of Fark are here for you.
 
2012-12-28 08:31:00 AM  

So sleepy: taurusowner: Dull Cow Eyes: or comes back batshiat crazy with guns.

Can't say I've ever heard of that, ever. And I'm leaving for my third deployment soon.

Thank you for your service.
Please come back in one piece and don't commit suicide. The irreverant geniuses and morans of Fark are here for you.


Also, buy a better car. For chrissakes, a Taurus? Come on, man.
 
2012-12-28 08:34:54 AM  

gadian: I really don't think the length combat tours are the source of the problem.


If the cause was legit, if the defense of their homeland was critical, if the reason for the war wasn't profit for business, then maybe they would have a chance.

Land war, east Asia, etc.
 
2012-12-28 08:36:09 AM  

namatad: LOL a true suicide will find a way. trivially.


Agreed. Most organizations know this as well. In the end the military is not much different than the corporate state run mental health systems like where I work.

To them its not truly about the prevention of suicides. Its about the prevention of lawsuits stemming from suicides. The higher up the chain, the more concern focuses on whether *proper procedures* were followed rather than any sort of real pride at perhaps helping someone finding life worth living to age 100. When our staff gets pulled in for a "root cause analysis" (i.e. a patient committed suicide x amount of days after being hospitalized for being suicidal), we are asked about what we documented, whether the procedures were correctly followed, was anything forgotten, was allergies and timelines considered with all medications.

What they never seem to get is the humiliation that patients feel to be dragged in against their will, to have to have 'collateral" to babysit them, often a family member likewise embarrassed that they have to do such a thing for their mentally ill son or daughter. Meetings with groups of professionals to ask to have guns removed and medications locked up. They treat the patients as if mentally disabled rather than mentally ill. So what happens? They fake their way to recovery, overburdened doctors under pressure to fill in 100 tickboxes on every patient every 2 hours missing the subtler signs (or insurance refusing to pay longer stay) and they get discharged. And so families get broken apart when the patient finds a different way to carry out their plan, then turn outward to see what the hospital could've/should've done.

/Mind you its the Administration/Corporate Dronies I have a problem with.
//The people who work directly with patients however: different story. The one in a bunch that we legitimately are able to save makes it all worth it, so we keep trying.
///We walk this terrible and beautiful world together.
////Psych Nurse
 
2012-12-28 08:36:38 AM  
Suicide among the civilian population can be categorized in three major groups. Divorcees (children of divorce and fathers), the elderly and homosexuals. Since the divorce rate among military families is epedimic, it should be no wonder why so many are offing themselves.
 
2012-12-28 08:37:09 AM  

Bomb Head Mohammed: way south: Wars cause the rates for violence, crime, and abuse to increase. It wouldn't be surprising to see suicide and a number of other bad things on that list.
...But the military has to go to war, that is its primary purpose. Most wars are political, chosen by Congress.

Seems to me the politicians are on the hook for this one.
Soldiers need more support after the state is done chewing them up and spitting them out. Congress controls the purse strings.

I'm sorry, but no.

Enough is enough.

There is a myth in the USA that somehow US soldiers are not looked after. In a small number of cases, this is true--I wholehartedly support the notion that soldiers should get complete medical and psychological assistance needed to 'make them whole' to the extent possible after time spent in harm's way.

However, the general idea that in the USA soldiers are somehow 'forgotten' or underfunded is absolute and total nonsense. What we have forgotten is that soldiers are a diverse bunch, and like every diverse bunch there are bound to be all manner of situations and people. Enlisted personnel in particular often come from difficult circumstances and, frankly, low educational achievement coming in, and then we somehow expect that they're entitled to $80,000 middle management jobs when they come out. Bollocks.

it has been estimated that the total compensation of even the lowliest US soldier is now in excess of $100,00 per year equivalent when you consider

- modest pay
- housing benefits
- health benefits
- job training benefits
- mortgage preferences and benefits
- retirement / pension benefits
- job preference benefits, occasionally written into law
- subsidized "other stuff" benefits from the government (insurance, etc)
- subsidized benefits from non-government sources
- tax benefits

the idea that we need to "spend more money" on soldiers is laughable. our soliders in WW2 accomplished far more for far, far less. They also didn't expect a few enlisted years to mean that they are entitled to live on those laurels for the rest of their lives. want proof? have a look at the LIFETIME medical benefits now offered to some 18 year old who goes to afghanistan, serves for two years total, and never leaves the base (and, as one who has been to afghanistan, let me be the first to say that for a certain percentage of people, that is not that uncommon). Such a person may well end up consuming several million dollars of benefit over their lifetime, but if you dare point out this obvius staggering inefficiency, you Hate America and are Worse Than Hitler.

(be sure to ask me also about the sham that is the 9/11 compensation fund, especially "9/11 syndrome")

it's easy to blame congress and "anonymous suits." it's easy to demand "more money" as if the fact that we spend in inflation-adjusted terms far more now on individual soldiers than any other arms ever has in the history of the world. it's harder to look at what's really going on and make hard choices.

Before you flame me, have a viewing of the recent "Music of War" movie about soldiers in iraq. Look at them and you'll come to realize that these are very ordinary people who both as a matter of pragmatism (they needed a job) and patriotism (in some cases) answered the country's call. They serve honorably, but it's a bit much to expect them to come out of there in some idealized way that a lot of you expect them to.

Yes, suicides are a problem Access to physical and mental health resources is a must. But, those are already quite widespread--more than the knee jerk commenters here might suspect. But the answer is not just "let's just have another BS litmus test of Real Americannness (tm) based on whether you support throwing an unlimited number of resources towards a ridiculously overglorified and unrealistic caricature of the American soldier."


This jibes with my experiences. I know many people that signed up for the bennies.
 
2012-12-28 08:37:57 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: Also, buy a better car. For chrissakes, a Taurus? Come on, man.


I think it depends on which Taurus he has.

This
i.imgur.com
NEQ:
i.imgur.com
 
2012-12-28 08:39:02 AM  

Serious Black: Amos Quito: Antidepressants?

War on drugs.

You can't fight one.

You have to take a 6 month supply of any drugs you're taking with you, and you have to have a written plan for how to get the remaining supply when your initial one runs out. It is a huge hassle.


"War on drugs" or "war, on drugs"?
 
2012-12-28 08:39:18 AM  

Babwa Wawa: Runs_With_Scissors_: One Bad Apple: Yeah, sadly this is actually the preferred norm.

True, but suicide numbers are way up.

TFA has no information on how the suicide rate in the military matches up with non-military suicide rates in the US for the same age groups.  Without that context, it's a useless statistic.


Someone mentioned that, within the age group, non-military suicide rates are higher. Got no kinky, tho'.
 
2012-12-28 08:40:14 AM  
BabwaWhiner
please explain how you know who I voted for

I don't need to know whick rich politician you gave authority to,
you gave it to one of the same idiots you give it to everytime, pinky.
This is how it works
your uninformed arse chooses the most charismatic politician running for office
or, you just listen to what your friends do
those people are responsible for sending our soldiers (sailors etc) into harm's way
so you bear part of the responsibility
I know...it's hard for you to fathom
 
2012-12-28 08:40:16 AM  
Read the book Black Hearts. Hugged my puppy.

(not a euphemism)
 
2012-12-28 08:41:45 AM  

Tat'dGreaser: I've been in for over a decade but never deployed. It's the greatest regret I'll have for the rest of my life. You can keep your apple pie, I just like being a soldier


And what kind of POG are you?
 
2012-12-28 08:44:16 AM  
Don't forget that the military is all volunteer at this point. Its probably not a stretch to imagine that many such people felt out of options to begin with with.
 
2012-12-28 08:44:16 AM  
Total US Services people Active & Reserve - 3,000,000
Suicides for 2012 - 303, Roughly 1 per 10,000

US Population - 311,000,000
Suicides for 2010 - 38,000, Roughly 1 per 8,000
 
2012-12-28 08:45:54 AM  

a_room_with_a_moose: Babwa Wawa: Runs_With_Scissors_: One Bad Apple: Yeah, sadly this is actually the preferred norm.

True, but suicide numbers are way up.

TFA has no information on how the suicide rate in the military matches up with non-military suicide rates in the US for the same age groups.  Without that context, it's a useless statistic.

Someone mentioned that, within the age group, non-military suicide rates are higher. Got no kinky, tho'.


Kinky=linky. Auto-correct pwnd.
 
2012-12-28 08:48:25 AM  

Optimus Primate: WhyteRaven74: Optimus Primate: "Veteran" has become some kind of lifetime honor tag to be milked at every opportunity,

In the case of combat vets, what there is is nowhere near enough. If some need to be provided for for the rest of their lives, so be it, if we want to keep making them, we can damn well pay for what they need after.

Absolutely. If you are an actual Combat Vet, god bless you - and may the benefits and honors flow like a river. During the Gulf War Years, 90 percent of all active duty servicemen did nothing but work a really sh*tty job in one of the most poorly-managed comapnies in the USA. I just never saw the big deal. I served honorably then got out and never really looked back.


fark you!

Part of one of the largest air drops the world has ever seen.
 
2012-12-28 08:48:50 AM  

Schroedinger's Glory Hole: And what kind of POG are you?


That's the worst f*cking part, I'm a 12B
 
2012-12-28 08:52:00 AM  

missmez: Don't forget that the military is all volunteer at this point. Its probably not a stretch to imagine that many such people felt out of options to begin with with.


People are probably going to be offended by that, but thats a good point. Not to mention homesickness, cultural shock, and that whole witnessing war thing. I wouldn't be surprised if the suicide rate is naturally high to begin with.
 
2012-12-28 08:53:24 AM  

Babwa Wawa: AverageAmericanGuy: Also, buy a better car. For chrissakes, a Taurus? Come on, man.

I think it depends on which Taurus he has.

This

NEQ:


How can you even post that kind of thing? Aren't suicide rates high enough??
 
2012-12-28 08:53:59 AM  

Tat'dGreaser: Look, it's there. The resources are there, but if you have NCOs and officers treating someone who is suicidal as a leper than that's the wrong answer. Why the hell would we yell at people so far at the top that they have no idea what's going on? Leadership is where it has to start. If you're an NCO and you do that to a soldier in need, then turn in your f*cking stripes.


The NCOs are just following orders. NPR did a piece on this a few years ago. The policy (in the army anyway) is that PTSD does not exist, and if anyone claims to have it, start building a disciplinary case against them so you can discharge them without the Army being liable for any followup care. Psychiatric services are underfunded and not being made available. Picture the situation at Walter Reed, only with brains instead of bodies. The NPR story included the case of a serviceman who, unable to get a military shrink to see him, checked himself into a civilian mental hospital, where the staff agreed with his own self-assessment that he was seriously nuts and needed to be committed. The army send some guys to extract him from the hospital at gunpoint. The story also featured a NCO who spouted the official line about PTSD being something that flakey soldiers were making up, until he could no longer deny that he had it himself.

PTSD, under one name or another, has been known since at least WWI and acknowledged by the military since at least WWII. Things seem to have gone backwards.
 
2012-12-28 08:54:05 AM  

Bomb Head Mohammed: way south: Wars cause the rates for violence, crime, and abuse to increase. It wouldn't be surprising to see suicide and a number of other bad things on that list.
...But the military has to go to war, that is its primary purpose. Most wars are political, chosen by Congress.

Seems to me the politicians are on the hook for this one.
Soldiers need more support after the state is done chewing them up and spitting them out. Congress controls the purse strings.

I'm sorry, but no.

Enough is enough.

There is a myth in the USA that somehow US soldiers are not looked after. In a small number of cases, this is true--I wholehartedly support the notion that soldiers should get complete medical and psychological assistance needed to 'make them whole' to the extent possible after time spent in harm's way.

However, the general idea that in the USA soldiers are somehow 'forgotten' or underfunded is absolute and total nonsense. What we have forgotten is that soldiers are a diverse bunch, and like every diverse bunch there are bound to be all manner of situations and people. Enlisted personnel in particular often come from difficult circumstances and, frankly, low educational achievement coming in, and then we somehow expect that they're entitled to $80,000 middle management jobs when they come out. Bollocks.

it has been estimated that the total compensation of even the lowliest US soldier is now in excess of $100,00 per year equivalent when you consider

- modest pay
- housing benefits
- health benefits
- job training benefits
- mortgage preferences and benefits
- retirement / pension benefits
- job preference benefits, occasionally written into law
- subsidized "other stuff" benefits from the government (insurance, etc)
- subsidized benefits from non-government sources
- tax benefits

the idea that we need to "spend more money" on soldiers is laughable. our soliders in WW2 accomplished far more for far, far less. They also didn't expect a few enlisted years to mean tha ...


Interesting thoughts, because my gf's son is in the US Navy and when he talks about all the stuff he's getting for serving I often wonder if this guy the rare exception or have I just been fooled into believing that the enlisted men of our military are destitute.

And as far as this thread goes if the rate of suicide in the general population is higher than the military (as suggested by someone above) then there is no story here, right?
 
2012-12-28 08:55:01 AM  

pciszek: The NCOs are just following orders. NPR did a piece on this a few years ago. The policy (in the army anyway) is that PTSD does not exist, and if anyone claims to have it, start building a disciplinary case against them so you can discharge them without the Army being liable for any followup care. Psychiatric services are underfunded and not being made available. Picture the situation at Walter Reed, only with brains instead of bodies. The NPR story included the case of a serviceman who, unable to get a military shrink to see him, checked himself into a civilian mental hospital, where the staff agreed with his own self-assessment that he was seriously nuts and needed to be committed. The army send some guys to extract him from the hospital at gunpoint. The story also featured a NCO who spouted the official line about PTSD being something that flakey soldiers were making up, until he could no longer deny that he had it himself.

PTSD, under one name or another, has been known since at least WWI and acknowledged by the military since at least WWII. Things seem to have gone backwards.


This is the biggest pile of sh*t I have ever read
 
2012-12-28 08:57:26 AM  

Tat'dGreaser: WhyteRaven74: It's far bigger than that, it's an us problem. If we put our collective foot down and demanded people in need be taken care of, the Army would be doing it so fast the stars on a general's shoulders would start spinning.

Look, it's there. The resources are there, but if you have NCOs and officers treating someone who is suicidal as a leper than that's the wrong answer. Why the hell would we yell at people so far at the top that they have no idea what's going on? Leadership is where it has to start. If you're an NCO and you do that to a soldier in need, then turn in your f*cking stripes.


If you weren't favorited already, I'd favorite you for this.
 
2012-12-28 08:59:12 AM  

durbnpoisn: Let me make two nifty points here. One for real, the other from a novel...


Now the point here is, what the bloody hell are we still doing in Iraq and Afghanistan?!


We're not in Iraq. We left there a year ago. And we're in Afghanistan training their soldiers and cops to keep the Taliban from coming back into power and ruining everyone's lives there while providing a safe haven for Al Qaeda. And we're leaving Afghanistan in 2014.

and we can't find enough money to prevent economic collapse at the end of this year.


There's plenty of money; government borrowing costs are at historic lows. The fiscal cliff wouldn't cause an economic collapse if it went into effect, it would just slow the rate of recovery and cause unnecessary pain both on the tax and spending side.
 
2012-12-28 08:59:24 AM  

Bomb Head Mohammed: way south: Wars cause the rates for violence, crime, and abuse to increase. It wouldn't be surprising to see suicide and a number of other bad things on that list.
...But the military has to go to war, that is its primary purpose. Most wars are political, chosen by Congress.

Seems to me the politicians are on the hook for this one.
Soldiers need more support after the state is done chewing them up and spitting them out. Congress controls the purse strings.

I'm sorry, but no.

Enough is enough.

There is a myth in the USA that somehow US soldiers are not looked after. In a small number of cases, this is true--I wholehartedly support the notion that soldiers should get complete medical and psychological assistance needed to 'make them whole' to the extent possible after time spent in harm's way.

However, the general idea that in the USA soldiers are somehow 'forgotten' or underfunded is absolute and total nonsense. What we have forgotten is that soldiers are a diverse bunch, and like every diverse bunch there are bound to be all manner of situations and people. Enlisted personnel in particular often come from difficult circumstances and, frankly, low educational achievement coming in, and then we somehow expect that they're entitled to $80,000 middle management jobs when they come out. Bollocks.

it has been estimated that the total compensation of even the lowliest US soldier is now in excess of $100,00 per year equivalent when you consider

- modest pay
- housing benefits
- health benefits
- job training benefits
- mortgage preferences and benefits
- retirement / pension benefits
- job preference benefits, occasionally written into law
- subsidized "other stuff" benefits from the government (insurance, etc)
- subsidized benefits from non-government sources
- tax benefits

the idea that we need to "spend more money" on soldiers is laughable. our soliders in WW2 accomplished far more for far, far less. They also didn't expect a few enlisted years to mean tha ...


Just wanted to say, as an active duty soldier for the past decade, so much THIS. Soldiers have a wealth of resources unavailable to the regular Joe, and while you can argue they earned it, there's no denying the fact that we have all kinds of (free) classes to enhance our non-Military employment. I love my bros/sisters-in-arms but at the end of the day, if you don't have marketable skills, you don't have marketable skills. I wish them all the best but people aren't likely to hire you just because you were in the armed forces.

That said, as a medic, it does break my heart to see the high number of suicides. Had one in my BN a month ago. It always seems so preventable in hindsight but, just, uuuugh. And to address the earlier posts--yes, there is almost always a SO of some sort involved. Not casting blame in their direction, a lot of sSoldiers make stupid decisions in the romance dept., just saying in ten years of AD it has been a common denominator.
 
2012-12-28 09:00:51 AM  

PanicMan: If you weren't favorited already, I'd favorite you for this.


Sha-bam

You're welcome!
 
2012-12-28 09:02:23 AM  

Tat'dGreaser: pciszek: The NCOs are just following orders. NPR did a piece on this a few years ago. The policy (in the army anyway) is that PTSD does not exist, and if anyone claims to have it, start building a disciplinary case against them so you can discharge them without the Army being liable for any followup care. Psychiatric services are underfunded and not being made available. Picture the situation at Walter Reed, only with brains instead of bodies. The NPR story included the case of a serviceman who, unable to get a military shrink to see him, checked himself into a civilian mental hospital, where the staff agreed with his own self-assessment that he was seriously nuts and needed to be committed. The army send some guys to extract him from the hospital at gunpoint. The story also featured a NCO who spouted the official line about PTSD being something that flakey soldiers were making up, until he could no longer deny that he had it himself.

PTSD, under one name or another, has been known since at least WWI and acknowledged by the military since at least WWII. Things seem to have gone backwards.

This is the biggest pile of sh*t I have ever read


As in untrue, or it is shiat that they are doing this?

Because it sounds exactly like the NPR story on traumatic brain injuries and the army denying that they were a real thing.
 
2012-12-28 09:02:47 AM  
The solution is to place armed teachers inside every military base.
 
2012-12-28 09:04:27 AM  

liam76: As in untrue, or it is shiat that they are doing this?

Because it sounds exactly like the NPR story on traumatic brain injuries and the army denying that they were a real thing.


As in complete fabrication bullsh*t
 
2012-12-28 09:05:08 AM  

vygramul: It says something about how few combat deaths we have had.


Yeah. I'm not sure this entirely sad news
 
2012-12-28 09:05:58 AM  

durbnpoisn: Now the point here is, what the bloody hell are we still doing in Iraq and Afghanistan?! The primary objectives (useless as they were), were accomplished. We should never have been there to start with.


Why shouldn't we have been in Afghanistan? The Taliban were harboring Al Qaeda... What else were we supposed to do?
 
2012-12-28 09:05:59 AM  
Taliban: "yesssss, our master plan is working!"
 
2012-12-28 09:06:15 AM  

The All-Powerful Atheismo: I'm indifferent to the method of their demise, but fark those guys.


I had my boss do himself in via the David Carradine method...

I didn't stop laughing for a week.
 
2012-12-28 09:09:57 AM  

gadian: I find it amusing that today we find 12 month tours ridiculous when in not too distant history one went to war until the war was over or they were killed / nearly killed.

There are systems in place for suicidal soldiers, but soldiers are too ashamed to use the systems because it looks bad on their record, or to their superiors, or to their families, or to themselves. Fix the macho attitudes, fix the "mental health" stamp of death on military hospital documents and you'll start to fix your soldiers. However, one might suppose part of the problem lies in the fact that more soldiers are living from injuries that should have killed them, would have twenty years ago. Sure, you're keeping their brains active, but are you saving their lives?


Two things. First, those times when you would fight until the war is over has a different level of OPTEMPO. As a for instance, the average line company in WWII would serve 1 month in active combat, with another month or two for consolidation and reorganization off the line (some specific engagements notwithstanding). In addition, there was a helluva lot more down time. Going back even earlier to say, the Civil War, you'd have a engagement that lasted for at most, 3-4 days, then have down time. To say nothing of the fact that nighttime was down time for both sides. That's changed. As an example, the Army's 12 month deployment. You get at most, 2 weeks and maybe three days out of the combat environment. The rest of the time, it's game on. There are no lines, there is no respite. You are in a combat environment 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. That's including day missions, night missions (due to technology, we fight more at night compared to wars past). If you're lucky, you might get a day off every two weeks. The rest of that is combat operations. Hell, even Fobbits are at risk from suicide bombers and mortar and rocket fire. Couple that with the uncertainty of who the enemy is, and you have a recipe for higher baseline levels of stress.

This does a number on your autonomic nervous system. When you engage the sympathetic nervous system (aka fight or flight) on such a regular basis, it increases the allostatic load, decreasing the ability to recover from stressors. In short, the internal "thermostat" if you will, gets reset to operate at higher levels of adrenaline. This is without the addition of traumatic events (i.e. getting IED'd, firefights, etc.) Even still, when individuals were in prior wars, the effects of combat were still evident, we just didn't speak of them the way we do now. It was called "nostalgia" or "soldier's heart" or "shell shock" or "battle fatigue." The signs and symptoms were all there, it was just considered a moral failing, one that wasn't discussed in polite conversation. That's why every one has the story of the grandfather, father, or uncle that came back from war and started drinking heavily, or beating their kids, or cheating on spouses. It was a dirty family secret.

As for the services available, there is some improvement that can be made, as there always is. I will give credit to the military, the services available to returning service members since the beginnings of Iraq and Afghanistan have increased immeasurably. Granted, many of the briefings are of a more "check the block" affair, and the stigma within the military is still high. It's decreasing, but it's still there. The military culture of "suck it up and drive on" plays a big part. One thing people forget about this mentality is it's only useful when there is a definitive end in sight. Without that end, it's only a load of self-abuse. To fix this, there has to be a cultural shift. (As way of disclosure, I'm a Vet and also work as a counselor for veterans with PTSD and other readjustment difficulties. Take that as you will). One of the biggest ways I find making counseling more palatable is I refer to it as training. It's simple: we were trained before deployment, we were trained during deployment, and sometimes we need training to retune our skills to return home.
 
2012-12-28 09:10:26 AM  

mbillips: durbnpoisn: Let me make two nifty points here. One for real, the other from a novel...


Now the point here is, what the bloody hell are we still doing in Iraq and Afghanistan?!

We're not in Iraq. We left there a year ago. And we're in Afghanistan training their soldiers and cops to keep the Taliban from coming back into power and ruining everyone's lives there while providing a safe haven for Al Qaeda. And we're leaving Afghanistan in 2014.

and we can't find enough money to prevent economic collapse at the end of this year.


There's plenty of money; government borrowing costs are at historic lows. The fiscal cliff wouldn't cause an economic collapse if it went into effect, it would just slow the rate of recovery and cause unnecessary pain both on the tax and spending side.



Okay, I'll give you that troup withdrawal is in full swing in Iraq. But we still spent WAY too much time there, and countless innocents dies in the meantime.
Afghanistan... Yeah, we are training the military and the police, and they are turning around and using that training against OUR troops. I'm sorry that the Taliban is so powerful there. I'm sorry that they are a bunch of fanatical nutcases. But we never gave a crap about that until we heard that they were hosting Bin Laden. Well, he's dead now. And it turns out that Pakistan, our supposed ally, was the one hosting him at that time. Why hasn't there been more of an uproar about that?!

At this point, we have no interest in Afghanistan. Our troops didn't upset or distabalize anything there. Yet we are STILL there, and there doesn't really seem to be any sort of resolution or exit plan in sight.
 
2012-12-28 09:14:49 AM  
i.qkme.me
 
2012-12-28 09:15:04 AM  

Tat'dGreaser: Schroedinger's Glory Hole: And what kind of POG are you?

That's the worst f*cking part, I'm a 12B


Engiqueer, I can respect that. At least you folk aren't the ones always saying, "But but but we're all on the same team."
 
2012-12-28 09:15:27 AM  

Tat'dGreaser: liam76: As in untrue, or it is shiat that they are doing this?

Because it sounds exactly like the NPR story on traumatic brain injuries and the army denying that they were a real thing.

As in complete fabrication bullsh*t


Ok

The army provided statistics back it up.

The way the govt treats PTSD and people with other "behavioral broblems" proves there is incentive to do this.

Not sure why you think it is so far fetched.
 
2012-12-28 09:16:32 AM  
If the Senior Non-Coms would quit farking with the juniors all the time with the chicken shiat, maybe we could get these numbers down a little bit.
 
2012-12-28 09:17:48 AM  

liam76: Tat'dGreaser: liam76: As in untrue, or it is shiat that they are doing this?

Because it sounds exactly like the NPR story on traumatic brain injuries and the army denying that they were a real thing.

As in complete fabrication bullsh*t

Ok

The army provided statistics back it up.

The way the govt treats PTSD and people with other "behavioral broblems" proves there is incentive to do this.

Not sure why you think it is so far fetched.


BTW the story was from 07 and they have done work to fix it, but largely because shiat like this was getting reported.
 
2012-12-28 09:18:29 AM  

Kygz: If the Senior Non-Coms would quit farking with the juniors all the time with the chicken shiat, maybe we could get these numbers down a little bit.


At least 30% of suicides are directly related to demands to blouse boots.
 
2012-12-28 09:18:56 AM  

mbillips: bakarocket: taurusowner: albertalaska: Soldiering is a gang of people killing armed and unarmed people. Indisputable. Unacceptable. How much self respect can you have when you are part of a murderous gang? Warriors and police do not act by virtue of bravery but act with the knowledge of being aided by the strength of their group. There is no bravery in a gang. I have no respect for them . Cowardice is the word I use to describe this behavior. Notice this fact : People never fight one on one without an audience. (unless they are drunk)

Too obvious. 2/10

Too clueless. -3/10

Soldiers are hired killers. This is fact. Some of us accept this. Some don't.

It doesn't mean they aren't sometimes necessary, but pretending they are more than murderers does everybody an injustice, and is probably related to the increase in suicides. When you tell people they are heroes and then order them to act like villains, you get a disconnect.

Oh, look, it's a baby troll. How adorable! Don't scare it, and somebody get a towel to wipe the drool off its bib.


Why would you wipe the drool off its bib? That's kinda what the bib is for.
 
2012-12-28 09:19:23 AM  

pciszek: namatad: 1-10 years after leaving, the taliban will be right back in place.

The Taliban never left, they are in place now. Who do you think has been maiming and disfiguring all those schoolgirls?


I meant actually back in place controlling the country like they were before we got there.
 
2012-12-28 09:19:31 AM  
cdn.motinetwork.net
 
2012-12-28 09:20:24 AM  

natas6.0: BabwaWhiner
please explain how you know who I voted for

I don't need to know whick rich politician you gave authority to,
you gave it to one of the same idiots you give it to everytime, pinky.
This is how it works
your uninformed arse chooses the most charismatic politician running for office
or, you just listen to what your friends do
those people are responsible for sending our soldiers (sailors etc) into harm's way
so you bear part of the responsibility
I know...it's hard for you to fathom


Wow. It must be very hard to be the only person in the world who knows the truth. Only you have a solid grasp on cause and effect, but yet can't make other people see it.

I'll bet you have impeccable taste in the arts, and are extremely frustrated by the state of the film, music and literature industries, too.
 
2012-12-28 09:20:37 AM  

Zeb Hesselgresser: Total US Services people Active & Reserve - 3,000,000
Suicides for 2012 - 303, Roughly 1 per 10,000

US Population - 311,000,000
Suicides for 2010 - 38,000, Roughly 1 per 8,000


THANK YOU for pointing out the most important fact.
and pissing me off by pointing out that they are LOWER than genpop ???
NICE !!
 
2012-12-28 09:21:27 AM  

durbnpoisn: mbillips: durbnpoisn: Let me make two nifty points here. One for real, the other from a novel...


Okay, I'll give you that troup withdrawal is in full swing in Iraq.

No, troop withdrawal is COMPLETE in Iraq. We haven't had ANY TROOPS THERE AT ALL since December, 2011, other than the 150 or so Marines that guard the embassy.

At this point, we have no interest in Afghanistan. Our troops didn't upset or distabalize anything there. Yet we are STILL there, and there doesn't really seem to be any sort of resolution or exit plan in sight.

We have an interest in anywhere that might become a failed state and harbor Al Qaeda. There is a resolution plan; it's working pretty well, and the exit plan has been clearly explained any number of times. Just because you haven't been paying attention doesn't mean there's been no progress.

There's been a lot of talk about green-on-blue violence screwing up the plan, but that seems way overblown. Casualty rates are WAY down in 2012 compared to 2011.
 
2012-12-28 09:23:02 AM  

namatad: Zeb Hesselgresser: Total US Services people Active & Reserve - 3,000,000
Suicides for 2012 - 303, Roughly 1 per 10,000

US Population - 311,000,000
Suicides for 2010 - 38,000, Roughly 1 per 8,000

THANK YOU for pointing out the most important fact.
and pissing me off by pointing out that they are LOWER than genpop ???
NICE !!


This doesn't control for the fact that military applicants are "screened" for mental illness prior to enlistment. Obviously one could include that this process isn't particularly efficacious, but I assume that's the reason having a lower rate than the general population is not considered acceptable.
 
2012-12-28 09:26:51 AM  

pciszek: Tat'dGreaser: Look, it's there. The resources are there, but if you have NCOs and officers treating someone who is suicidal as a leper than that's the wrong answer. Why the hell would we yell at people so far at the top that they have no idea what's going on? Leadership is where it has to start. If you're an NCO and you do that to a soldier in need, then turn in your f*cking stripes.

The NCOs are just following orders. NPR did a piece on this a few years ago. The policy (in the army anyway) is that PTSD does not exist, and if anyone claims to have it, start building a disciplinary case against them so you can discharge them without the Army being liable for any followup care. Psychiatric services are underfunded and not being made available. Picture the situation at Walter Reed, only with brains instead of bodies. The NPR story included the case of a serviceman who, unable to get a military shrink to see him, checked himself into a civilian mental hospital, where the staff agreed with his own self-assessment that he was seriously nuts and needed to be committed. The army send some guys to extract him from the hospital at gunpoint. The story also featured a NCO who spouted the official line about PTSD being something that flakey soldiers were making up, until he could no longer deny that he had it himself.

PTSD, under one name or another, has been known since at least WWI and acknowledged by the military since at least WWII. Things seem to have gone backwards.


George Carlin had a great bit on this. While certainly not the only reason, calling "shell shock" by increasingly clinical names dehumanizes the suffering. I know guys with operational exhaustion and I know guys with farking shell shock and I can promise you plain as day they are not the same frogdamned thing.
 
2012-12-28 09:27:04 AM  
Military suicide CSB/

In mid 2006 I was deployed and living at FOB Rustimiyah in southeastern Baghdad. The mortars and rockets had been raining on us pretty frequently but it never really caused much stress to me. It was all the other BS that the Army still made us do that was stressful. Other guys felt the same way. A SPC from 2nd platoon was on patrol, took off his night vision and placed it on the roof of his humvee. He forgot they were there when the truck rolled out and the night vision rolled off the roof and into the mud. The missing night vision was discovered during one of the 5-times-a-day sensitive item checks later that evening. Because no one loses anything in the Army, he said someone stole them. Why someone would steal them is beyond me, we all had a set, but that's what he told command. An unholy shiatstorm ensued. We had a huge meeting with with the BN CSM who pleaded (unusual) for us to return the stolen night vision, the BN CO ordered all A Co. Soldiers to march around the base in formation singing cadence (nothing goes better with random rocket attacks like large groups of men walking together shouting loudly their location), we were stripped of all entertainment like laptops, dvd players, ipods, and even books. We were only allowed to have pen, paper and bibles. The night vision never turned up. This went on for two weeks. When eventually it came out that he had actually lost them out in sector and they were stolen, we gave that man hell. We felt it was our job. Two months later he killed himself in a portable toilet. His close friends say it was home problems and not us, but I couldn't help feeling some measure of responsibility. I also was the one who found the body only a few minutes after he did it. It's one of those things that messed me up from the tour. But I always availed myself of the mental health facilities.
I faced down the stigma because I didn't care what others would think. I understood that the things I had experienced there were not normal and that mental health can be just as important as physical health. I caught hell from my COC because every Friday for a few months I had a doctor's appointment, but it helped. I had studied WWII in college and learned that there was virtually no mental health apparatus available to those guys and the problems that caused. I knew I didn't want to wake up and see what I saw every day for the rest of my life. I knew that I didn't want to feel responsible for what I had or hadn't done. I needed the reassurance that comes with that help.
The biggest obstacle to getting help in the military is the COC. Even at a time when we had little to do in garrison other than clean out equipment from the tour, I was seen as a shammer who was trying to get out of work. Oftentimes when you tell your COC what it is exactly bothering you, you end up with a game of one-upmanship, of "I've seen worse and I'm OK, you're just shamming." All the stuff in this thread about shaming the individual is true as well. Had he said he was suicidal, he would have been ostracized, both purposefully and accidentally. He may have been taken from the unit and his friends, he would have been given a road guard vest and had his weapon taken away. Everyone on the FOB would have known what he was. It can't help. I guess I'm rambling at this point.

/End CSB
 
2012-12-28 09:28:15 AM  

taurusowner: doyner: Yet I'm still waiting for the public to catch on to the fact that suicides are up due (in large part) to the increased rotation of personnel through war zones.

I would say it's not just being rotated through a war-zone, but being pulled away from their regular lives for a year at a time, multiple times over the span of a few years. It really makes actually living your life very difficult or even impossible for some. Being pulled away from you wife, girlfriend, work, school, friends, etc and being stuck in Afghanistan while everyone at home keeps living is very jarring. Missing the births of kids, older children being distant to you for being gone so much. Wife and girlfriends cheating and finding other people. Finding it much harder to pursue a real career type job or complete a degree in a reasonable amount of time. Deploying multiple times just farks your whole life up for pretty much the whole span you're in the military. You really just gotta be willing to put your life on hold and try to pick it back up again when you're all done. Some people can handle it. Some cant'.

I would be willing to be real money that most (75%+) of those suicides involved some form of spousal (wife/husband, girlfriend/boyfriend) difficulties at home.

It's not just the combat that gets to you. It's knowing that you have nothing to come home to that really tears the rug out from under your life.


On top of frequent rotations is the quick transition: one day you're in a war zone, the next you take a plane ride and are home. Everything is supposed to suddenly be back to hunky dory, but that's a huge shift of gears without time to process in between.
 
2012-12-28 09:28:53 AM  

Schroedinger's Glory Hole: Kygz: If the Senior Non-Coms would quit farking with the juniors all the time with the chicken shiat, maybe we could get these numbers down a little bit.

At least 30% of suicides are directly related to demands to blouse boots.


More like "my old boss was a barely-literate, inhuman farkwad whose inability to unerstadn my job in no way impaired his ability to criticize it or reprioritize my life to revolve around meaningless bullshiat, so that's exactly how I'm going to treat you. Now go rewrite our entire unit SOP manual, I want to look good this APS."
 
2012-12-28 09:31:43 AM  

Schroedinger's Glory Hole: Engiqueer, I can respect that. At least you folk aren't the ones always saying, "But but but we're all on the same team."


I prefer "picket-pounding-dumbsh*t" thank you very much

liam76: BTW the story was from 07 and they have done work to fix it, but largely because shiat like this was getting reported.


DINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGD I NG
 
2012-12-28 09:34:43 AM  

Tat'dGreaser: liam76: BTW the story was from 07 and they have done work to fix it, but largely because shiat like this was getting reported.

DINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGDINGD I NG


So you want to change yoru claim from the story is "complete fabrication bullsh*t" to the stroy has changed?
 
2012-12-28 09:35:52 AM  

Ivandrago: Military suicide CSB/

In mid 2006 I was deployed and living at FOB Rustimiyah in southeastern Baghdad. The mortars and rockets had been raining on us pretty frequently but it never really caused much stress to me. It was all the other BS that the Army still made us do that was stressful. Other guys felt the same way. A SPC from 2nd platoon was on patrol, took off his night vision and placed it on the roof of his humvee. He forgot they were there when the truck rolled out and the night vision rolled off the roof and into the mud. The missing night vision was discovered during one of the 5-times-a-day sensitive item checks later that evening. Because no one loses anything in the Army, he said someone stole them. Why someone would steal them is beyond me, we all had a set, but that's what he told command. An unholy shiatstorm ensued. We had a huge meeting with with the BN CSM who pleaded (unusual) for us to return the stolen night vision, the BN CO ordered all A Co. Soldiers to march around the base in formation singing cadence (nothing goes better with random rocket attacks like large groups of men walking together shouting loudly their location), we were stripped of all entertainment like laptops, dvd players, ipods, and even books. We were only allowed to have pen, paper and bibles. The night vision never turned up. This went on for two weeks. When eventually it came out that he had actually lost them out in sector and they were stolen, we gave that man hell. We felt it was our job. Two months later he killed himself in a portable toilet. His close friends say it was home problems and not us, but I couldn't help feeling some measure of responsibility. I also was the one who found the body only a few minutes after he did it. It's one of those things that messed me up from the tour. But I always availed myself of the mental health facilities.
I faced down the stigma because I didn't care what others would think. I understood that the things I had experienced there we ...


Ah, Cuervo. What a lovely little shiathole. Good on you for squaring yourself away. Makes my life easier. Any day I get closer to not being needed is a good one.
 
2012-12-28 09:35:58 AM  

Ivandrago: Military suicide CSB/

In mid 2006 I was deployed and living at FOB Rustimiyah in southeastern Baghdad. The mortars and rockets had been raining on us pretty frequently but it never really caused much stress to me. It was all the other BS that the Army still made us do that was stressful. Other guys felt the same way. A SPC from 2nd platoon was on patrol, took off his night vision and placed it on the roof of his humvee. He forgot they were there when the truck rolled out and the night vision rolled off the roof and into the mud. The missing night vision was discovered during one of the 5-times-a-day sensitive item checks later that evening. Because no one loses anything in the Army, he said someone stole them. Why someone would steal them is beyond me, we all had a set, but that's what he told command. An unholy shiatstorm ensued. We had a huge meeting with with the BN CSM who pleaded (unusual) for us to return the stolen night vision, the BN CO ordered all A Co. Soldiers to march around the base in formation singing cadence (nothing goes better with random rocket attacks like large groups of men walking together shouting loudly their location), we were stripped of all entertainment like laptops, dvd players, ipods, and even books. We were only allowed to have pen, paper and bibles. The night vision never turned up. This went on for two weeks. When eventually it came out that he had actually lost them out in sector and they were stolen, we gave that man hell. We felt it was our job. Two months later he killed himself in a portable toilet. His close friends say it was home problems and not us, but I couldn't help feeling some measure of responsibility. I also was the one who found the body only a few minutes after he did it. It's one of those things that messed me up from the tour. But I always availed myself of the mental health facilities.
I faced down the stigma because I didn't care what others would think. I understood that the things I had experienced there we ...


Not to blame the victim because nobody deserves to be bullied into suicide, but the man lost a piece of mission-essential kit that would be extremely useful to an enemy, bladed his own unit to cover his own farkup and then stood there with his thumbs in his mouth while the old man made his buddies eat shiat for something he knew they didn't do? I can't say I'd punch him in the balls while he slept but I certainly wouldn't sit with the guy at lunch either.

I didn't know the man or you but his death was not your fault, in my internet opinion. The guy did something that would've attracted scorn in any social circle and you were right to shun him; if you'd known he was on the edge I sincerely doubt you'd have pushed him an inch farther. Good on you for getting help and fark all the hoorah blowhards who have a problem with you doing what you need to do to ensure your survivability during your service and afterward. You have to do what's best for you and if that ends your watch then fine, there are plenty of young men behind you ready to step up and lots of old ones at the other end who would rather lead you to a place of honour than carry your casket to one. My username's a gmail address if you wanna chat.

Good on you for
 
2012-12-28 09:36:58 AM  
In case you thought we were having no positive impact in Afghanistan:
 
2012-12-28 09:38:28 AM  

Flakeloaf: Schroedinger's Glory Hole: Kygz: If the Senior Non-Coms would quit farking with the juniors all the time with the chicken shiat, maybe we could get these numbers down a little bit.

At least 30% of suicides are directly related to demands to blouse boots.

More like "my old boss was a barely-literate, inhuman farkwad whose inability to unerstadn my job in no way impaired his ability to criticize it or reprioritize my life to revolve around meaningless bullshiat, so that's exactly how I'm going to treat you. Now go rewrite our entire unit SOP manual, I want to look good this APS."


There's an academic term for this type of behavior. If you read historian Paul Fussell's work on the life of the average soldier in WWII, Wartime, he devotes an entire chapter to this. The chapter is called "Chickenshiat."
 
2012-12-28 09:42:28 AM  
Need to organize the crack suicide squad
img130.imageshack.us
 
2012-12-28 09:43:20 AM  

rnatalie: Need to organize the crack suicide squad
[img130.imageshack.us image 299x205]


3.bp.blogspot.com

beat you to it.
 
2012-12-28 09:46:18 AM  

Mr. Breeze: mbillips: bakarocket: taurusowner: albertalaska: Soldiering is a gang of people killing armed and unarmed people. Indisputable. Unacceptable. How much self respect can you have when you are part of a murderous gang? Warriors and police do not act by virtue of bravery but act with the knowledge of being aided by the strength of their group. There is no bravery in a gang. I have no respect for them . Cowardice is the word I use to describe this behavior. Notice this fact : People never fight one on one without an audience. (unless they are drunk)

Too obvious. 2/10

Too clueless. -3/10

Soldiers are hired killers. This is fact. Some of us accept this. Some don't.

It doesn't mean they aren't sometimes necessary, but pretending they are more than murderers does everybody an injustice, and is probably related to the increase in suicides. When you tell people they are heroes and then order them to act like villains, you get a disconnect.

Oh, look, it's a baby troll. How adorable! Don't scare it, and somebody get a towel to wipe the drool off its bib.

Why would you wipe the drool off its bib? That's kinda what the bib is for.


It's funny. Whenever people can't respond with logical responses, they resort to calling people "troll".

I wonder if it's more comforting to just ignore those ideas that challenge one's intellect. I guess I'll never know.
 
2012-12-28 09:51:42 AM  

clane: [cdn.motinetwork.net image 640x802]


hehehhhe so cute
but the war on republicans isnt a real war, just one in their tiny little insular minds
 
2012-12-28 09:51:53 AM  

doyner: vygramul: It says something about how few combat deaths we have had.

Indeed it does.  Yet I'm still waiting for the public to catch on to the fact that suicides are up due (in large part) to the increased rotation of personnel through war zones.  Yes, battlefield medicine is an enormous contributor to this metric, as it is also a great service to medicine in general.  But such statements tend, on the surface, to discount the other harsh realities of our current system.

But the public won't catch on....until we bring back the draft and make wars a matter of nation-wide responsibility.


We don't need a draft.  What we need is a tax hike for war.  Something like, "for any deployment of more than a battalion, taxes go up by 10% to pay for the operation.  You are exempted if you, a spouse, or a dependent are deployed in the country of conflict."  Obviously, that would need some careful definition because that simple proof of concept has holes, but I'm tired of attempts to have wars on the cheap without the public appreciating it.  It would give politicians tangible reasons the public would appreciate to vote against a given war, it would help refine the difference between "wars" (pretending a limited bombing of Libya and the war in Iraq were the same in any meaningful sense is absurd), it would make the rich actually have to bear a burden for their enhanced ability to avoid having to fight for their country, and it would FUND THE DAMN THING.
 
2012-12-28 09:54:10 AM  
I for one am (shell) shocked.
 
2012-12-28 09:58:09 AM  

Bomb Head Mohammed: way south: Wars cause the rates for violence, crime, and abuse to increase. It wouldn't be surprising to see suicide and a number of other bad things on that list.
...But the military has to go to war, that is its primary purpose. Most wars are political, chosen by Congress.

Seems to me the politicians are on the hook for this one.
Soldiers need more support after the state is done chewing them up and spitting them out. Congress controls the purse strings.

I'm sorry, but no.

Enough is enough.

There is a myth in the USA that somehow US soldiers are not looked after. In a small number of cases, this is true--I wholehartedly support the notion that soldiers should get complete medical and psychological assistance needed to 'make them whole' to the extent possible after time spent in harm's way.

However, the general idea that in the USA soldiers are somehow 'forgotten' or underfunded is absolute and total nonsense. ...


At first I got all indignant, but you know what? You are correct on most of these points. A friend of mine got out after 8 years service including deploying to Iraq in '03 and '05. He's currently getting 80% disability for a bad ankle, a bad back, and memory problems.

I've gone paintballing with this guy many times since he's been out so I know he's not hurt enough to warrant the handicapped plates he was given. And given the fact that he's a computer programmer and network administrator, I don't understand where his claims of memory problems are coming from. It's not that he cheated the system or anything. He's just taking what's handed out to him by the VA. You're example though of the 18 year old with 2 years service however is not possible unless they were somehow injured enough to be medically discharged, so I don't think you are telling the whole story there.

But I do believe that many servicemembers who keep hearing this "military is underpaid" BS eventually buy into it for the simple fact that when something is continuously repeated to them over and over again, they eventually believe it.

I do take umbrage with your "low educational achievement" comment though. Graduating in the 6th percentile of my class I chose to join out of necessity and a somewhat misguided patriotism (this was pre 9/11 btw). But I'll not get into that.

As for: our soliders in WW2 accomplished far more for far, far less, The military of WW2 was not as exposed to the political and media nightmare that currently encompasses modern military action. If we could have carpet bombed or nuked Iraq the way the allies did Germany and Japan things might have taken a lot less time and less money. But for better or worse the media prevents that sort of heavy handedness through its extensive coverage. In addition, war profiteering was a negative thing back then. Nowadays it's expected, and almost like a game for corporations and politicians alike.
 
2012-12-28 10:02:42 AM  

I'm an Egyptian!: Flakeloaf: Schroedinger's Glory Hole: Kygz: If the Senior Non-Coms would quit farking with the juniors all the time with the chicken shiat, maybe we could get these numbers down a little bit.

At least 30% of suicides are directly related to demands to blouse boots.

More like "my old boss was a barely-literate, inhuman farkwad whose inability to unerstadn my job in no way impaired his ability to criticize it or reprioritize my life to revolve around meaningless bullshiat, so that's exactly how I'm going to treat you. Now go rewrite our entire unit SOP manual, I want to look good this APS."

There's an academic term for this type of behavior. If you read historian Paul Fussell's work on the life of the average soldier in WWII, Wartime, he devotes an entire chapter to this. The chapter is called "Chickenshiat."


Sounds like a fun read. Thanks!
 
2012-12-28 10:03:53 AM  

Flakeloaf: I'm an Egyptian!: Flakeloaf: Schroedinger's Glory Hole: Kygz: If the Senior Non-Coms would quit farking with the juniors all the time with the chicken shiat, maybe we could get these numbers down a little bit.

At least 30% of suicides are directly related to demands to blouse boots.

More like "my old boss was a barely-literate, inhuman farkwad whose inability to unerstadn my job in no way impaired his ability to criticize it or reprioritize my life to revolve around meaningless bullshiat, so that's exactly how I'm going to treat you. Now go rewrite our entire unit SOP manual, I want to look good this APS."

There's an academic term for this type of behavior. If you read historian Paul Fussell's work on the life of the average soldier in WWII, Wartime, he devotes an entire chapter to this. The chapter is called "Chickenshiat."

Sounds like a fun read. Thanks!


Here's a copy, for the edutainment of the thread.
 
2012-12-28 10:05:13 AM  

Babwa Wawa: StoPPeRmobile: Let's try preventing the slaughter of 30,000 - 50,000 lives a year on the roads.

In 22 of the last 30 years, the rate of traffic fatalities has dropped.  We haven't had a lower rate of traffic fatalities since World War 1.  Hell, the sheer number of fatalities has dropped 25% even without factoring in population over the last 10 years.  There haven't been 50,000 traffic deaths in the US since 1980, for Christ's sake.

TL;DR:  What the hell are you talking about?

[i.imgur.com image 600x464]


Although, I'm not sure why they compare the number of deaths vs the total population. It would be better to compare it to the total population of DRIVERS.


That said, there aren't less accidents, there are better cars and emergency response to help prevent casualties.

I mean, 20 years ago, you'd be laying in a ditch dying while waiting for a response. Today, even for fender benders, there are 20 people dialing 911 to report.
 
2012-12-28 10:05:57 AM  

liam76: So you want to change yoru claim from the story is "complete fabrication bullsh*t" to the stroy has changed?


You can't take a story from 2007 and act like it's fact right now
 
2012-12-28 10:15:17 AM  

bakarocket: Mr. Breeze: mbillips: bakarocket: taurusowner: albertalaska: Soldiering is a gang of people killing armed and unarmed people. Indisputable. Unacceptable. How much self respect can you have when you are part of a murderous gang? Warriors and police do not act by virtue of bravery but act with the knowledge of being aided by the strength of their group. There is no bravery in a gang. I have no respect for them . Cowardice is the word I use to describe this behavior. Notice this fact : People never fight one on one without an audience. (unless they are drunk)

Too obvious. 2/10

Too clueless. -3/10

Soldiers are hired killers. This is fact. Some of us accept this. Some don't.

It doesn't mean they aren't sometimes necessary, but pretending they are more than murderers does everybody an injustice, and is probably related to the increase in suicides. When you tell people they are heroes and then order them to act like villains, you get a disconnect.

Oh, look, it's a baby troll. How adorable! Don't scare it, and somebody get a towel to wipe the drool off its bib.

Why would you wipe the drool off its bib? That's kinda what the bib is for.

It's funny. Whenever people can't respond with logical responses, they resort to calling people "troll".

I wonder if it's more comforting to just ignore those ideas that challenge one's intellect. I guess I'll never know.


You'll never know until you actually challenge someone's intellect. Go look up the definition of murder. Better luck next time.
 
2012-12-28 10:16:29 AM  
Most major armies now have a huge infrastructure in place to deal with mental health issues. Previous posters have been correct as well: bullying and harassment is by far more damaging than being shot at or blown up. To be excluded from a team that you have been living and fighting with for months is deeply traumatic. Many OSIs could be healed quickly if there was true acceptance of the individual and encouraging them to rejoin their comrades once they are fit. Ostracization is the killer.
 
2012-12-28 10:18:24 AM  

bakarocket: It's funny. Whenever people can't respond with logical responses, they resort to calling people "troll".

I wonder if it's more comforting to just ignore those ideas that challenge one's intellect. I guess I'll never know


You are either a troll or too stupid to understand the definition of "murderer".


Tat'dGreaser: liam76: So you want to change yoru claim from the story is "complete fabrication bullsh*t" to the stroy has changed?

You can't take a story from 2007 and act like it's fact right now


He, nor I acted like it was a fact "right now". Just mentioned that we heard about it.

And the fact is how the army trerats it is still a problem. "Vets are telling me that if you fill the form out truthfully and you want to be a career soldier, your career is over."
 
2012-12-28 10:21:24 AM  

Flakeloaf: George Carlin had a great bit on this. While certainly not the only reason, calling "shell shock" by increasingly clinical names dehumanizes the suffering. I know guys with operational exhaustion and I know guys with farking shell shock and I can promise you plain as day they are not the same frogdamned thing.


Shell shock in the sense of temporary paralysis may have an actual physiological cause: Apparently your adrenaline glands are always secreting a small amount of adrenaline--normal operating conditions for the human body include a small amount of adrenaline. In combat, someone might be running on adrenaline for an extended period of time to the point where they use up the available supply, and for the first time in their lives have almost no adrenaline in their bloodstream. The fight/flight reflex might not work without it. To confuse things, this gets called "shell shock" and so does PTSD, and of course the same people are at risk for both of these conditions.
 
2012-12-28 10:21:57 AM  
Very sad,
I watched a few episodes of that bomb patrol show. What amazes me is how the soldiers can go out, get shot at, defuse bombs, engage in enemy contact who wants to kill you and then go back to the base and go to bed.
How the hell do you sleep? There's no way you can sleep well or have a "normal" dream.
heck, i have a shiatty day at my cush job and I have nightmares.

The battles seem to be in the head more than the field.
 
2012-12-28 10:23:25 AM  

clane: cdn.motinetwork.net


And what is the third? Are you calling Libya a war? By that standard, you would have to call Grenada and Panama "wars" as well.
 
2012-12-28 10:24:31 AM  

Flakeloaf: I'm an Egyptian!: Flakeloaf: Schroedinger's Glory Hole: Kygz: If the Senior Non-Coms would quit farking with the juniors all the time with the chicken shiat, maybe we could get these numbers down a little bit.

At least 30% of suicides are directly related to demands to blouse boots.

More like "my old boss was a barely-literate, inhuman farkwad whose inability to unerstadn my job in no way impaired his ability to criticize it or reprioritize my life to revolve around meaningless bullshiat, so that's exactly how I'm going to treat you. Now go rewrite our entire unit SOP manual, I want to look good this APS."

There's an academic term for this type of behavior. If you read historian Paul Fussell's work on the life of the average soldier in WWII, Wartime, he devotes an entire chapter to this. The chapter is called "Chickenshiat."

Sounds like a fun read. Thanks!


When you read it, you realize that the more things change, the more they stay the same. With the exception of the alcohol bit.
 
2012-12-28 10:24:48 AM  
My ex best friend / roommate joined the army after divorcing his HS sweetheart. After the breakup and before he went to boot camp we had many long drunk nights. Hell we both had issues and helped each other through them. I told him that I thought the military would be a bad decision givin his personality but he had already signed the papers.

Well fast forward about 9 mos after being in the service I get a call from his brother crying (another one of my friends) who told me that he was found that morning hung in his closet in the dorm. I think it had more to do with his ex having a baby w. the guy she cheated on him with plus his current gf broke up w. him the night before because he wasn't there to comfort her and she needed someone then but he was stuck in the army and couldn't be there.

Granted suicide sucks but I will always remember the good times we had hanging out.

/RIP Todd
 
2012-12-28 10:26:27 AM  

ggecko: Babwa Wawa: StoPPeRmobile: Let's try preventing the slaughter of 30,000 - 50,000 lives a year on the roads.

In 22 of the last 30 years, the rate of traffic fatalities has dropped.  We haven't had a lower rate of traffic fatalities since World War 1.  Hell, the sheer number of fatalities has dropped 25% even without factoring in population over the last 10 years.  There haven't been 50,000 traffic deaths in the US since 1980, for Christ's sake.

TL;DR:  What the hell are you talking about?

[i.imgur.com image 600x464]

Although, I'm not sure why they compare the number of deaths vs the total population. It would be better to compare it to the total population of DRIVERS.


That said, there aren't less accidents, there are better cars and emergency response to help prevent casualties.

I mean, 20 years ago, you'd be laying in a ditch dying while waiting for a response. Today, even for fender benders, there are 20 people dialing 911 to report.


I agree, but better tires, better brakes, better handling results in fewer accidents overall. Anyway the net effect is fewer roadway deaths, and the trend will continue.

I'll wager that withib my lifetime roadway deaths will become a genuine curiosity as self-driving cars overtake human drivers.
 
2012-12-28 10:26:47 AM  

pciszek: Flakeloaf: George Carlin had a great bit on this. While certainly not the only reason, calling "shell shock" by increasingly clinical names dehumanizes the suffering. I know guys with operational exhaustion and I know guys with farking shell shock and I can promise you plain as day they are not the same frogdamned thing.

Shell shock in the sense of temporary paralysis may have an actual physiological cause: Apparently your adrenaline glands are always secreting a small amount of adrenaline--normal operating conditions for the human body include a small amount of adrenaline. In combat, someone might be running on adrenaline for an extended period of time to the point where they use up the available supply, and for the first time in their lives have almost no adrenaline in their bloodstream. The fight/flight reflex might not work without it. To confuse things, this gets called "shell shock" and so does PTSD, and of course the same people are at risk for both of these conditions.


Actually, both work on the same underlying biological principle and is thus the same disorder, it's just the stimulus the nervous system attunes to that is different. So a WWI soldier in the trenches might have heightened response to loud noises that have been associated with the sound of artillery hence "shell shock", while a modern soldier might not be able to healthily interface with social situations if they've been in a prolonged asymmetrical situation like the one wars we're currently fighting where anyone can be an aggressor.
 
2012-12-28 10:32:16 AM  

Schroedinger's Glory Hole: This doesn't control for the fact that military applicants are "screened" for mental illness prior to enlistment. Obviously one could include that this process isn't particularly efficacious, but I assume that's the reason having a lower rate than the general population is not considered acceptable.


true, but it also doesnt adjust for people who want to join the army being a little crazy in a different way.
it could be argued that risk takers join the military or people less worried about life.

in the end, most groups are self selected, regardless of testing for this or that.
It might be interesting to see suicide rates for people who are rejected from enlistment, drop out of boot camp, get discharged early vs 2-10 years vs 20+ years.

I think I might love numbers too much.
 
2012-12-28 10:32:53 AM  

Babwa Wawa: I agree, but better tires, better brakes, better handling results in fewer accidents overall. Anyway the net effect is fewer roadway deaths, and the trend will continue.

I'll wager that withib my lifetime roadway deaths will become a genuine curiosity as self-driving cars overtake human drivers.


Plus, these mamby-pamby young whippersnappers moving to the cities and deciding that they don't need cars.
 
2012-12-28 10:34:30 AM  

vygramul: We don't need a draft.  What we need is a tax hike for war.  Something like, "for any deployment of more than a battalion, taxes go up by 10% to pay for the operation.  You are exempted if you, a spouse, or a dependent are deployed in the country of conflict."  Obviously, that would need some careful definition because that simple proof of concept has holes, but I'm tired of attempts to have wars on the cheap without the public appreciating it.  It would give politicians tangible reasons the public would appreciate to vote against a given war, it would help refine the difference between "wars" (pretending a limited bombing of Libya and the war in Iraq were the same in any meaningful sense is absurd), it would make the rich actually have to bear a burden for their enhanced ability to avoid having to fight for their country, and it would FUND THE DAMN THING.


meh
can we start with PUNISHING the people who lied to start with?
It will be a REALLY SHORT WAR and the people will love us?? HAHAHAHAHAH
How about increasing taxes every year that we are still at war? LOLOLOL

Instead we got two wars and tax cuts?? WTF
It is so cute watching the GOP cut taxes and increase spending.
fark EM
 
2012-12-28 10:41:33 AM  

pciszek: clane: cdn.motinetwork.net

And what is the third? Are you calling Libya a war? By that standard, you would have to call Grenada and Panama "wars" as well.


it depends on if a Democrat or a Republican is president....
2.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-12-28 10:41:46 AM  

Schroedinger's Glory Hole: This doesn't control for the fact that military applicants are "screened" for mental illness prior to enlistment. Obviously one could include that this process isn't particularly efficacious, but I assume that's the reason having a lower rate than the general population is not considered acceptable.


How about if you sort by age cohort and gender? How do the numbers compare then?

Some groups of people who aren't in the military who might be prone to suicide:

Teenagers under 18
Old people
Terminally ill people
Stockbrokers
Heavy drug users
Rock musicians (but I repeat myself)
 
2012-12-28 10:43:14 AM  

PonceAlyosha: pciszek: Flakeloaf: George Carlin had a great bit on this. While certainly not the only reason, calling "shell shock" by increasingly clinical names dehumanizes the suffering. I know guys with operational exhaustion and I know guys with farking shell shock and I can promise you plain as day they are not the same frogdamned thing.

Shell shock in the sense of temporary paralysis may have an actual physiological cause: Apparently your adrenaline glands are always secreting a small amount of adrenaline--normal operating conditions for the human body include a small amount of adrenaline. In combat, someone might be running on adrenaline for an extended period of time to the point where they use up the available supply, and for the first time in their lives have almost no adrenaline in their bloodstream. The fight/flight reflex might not work without it. To confuse things, this gets called "shell shock" and so does PTSD, and of course the same people are at risk for both of these conditions.

Actually, both work on the same underlying biological principle and is thus the same disorder, it's just the stimulus the nervous system attunes to that is different. So a WWI soldier in the trenches might have heightened response to loud noises that have been associated with the sound of artillery hence "shell shock", while a modern soldier might not be able to healthily interface with social situations if they've been in a prolonged asymmetrical situation like the one wars we're currently fighting where anyone can be an aggressor.


Potentially yes and no. There are multiple possible interactions at play. For the temporary paralysis, which in many cases may be peritraumatic dissociation, there is the element of a potential blast injury causing a mild traumatic brain injury (mTBI). In short, your bell gets rung, and you don't know which way is up. The time for this loss of memory/action is dependent on the specific blast injury mechanism, or the overall severity of the injury. Another possible factor is the overwhelming shock to the system, in which the autonomic nervous system is trying to figure out how to respond. There's been some work focusing on the vagal system by Porges, in which he theorizes that in cases where there is no injury and the individual freezes in response to stress, there is an activation of the dorsal vagal complex in which the reverts to a evolutionarily older branch of the vagus. This results in a survival mechanism which cause a "freeze" in order to conserve resources.

As for the heightened response to specific triggers, that plain old hypervigilance. It's a vicious cycle. The individual learns that specific triggers like loud noises or sudden movements indicate danger. Works great in a combat environment. However, as the response becomes more frequent, that response not only gets wired in, it also can become more generalized. So while in a combat context it's very helpful, it can be problematic if say, a car backfires in a non-threatening environment. The individual still reacts, further wiring in that response. Couple this with a combat cognitive schema that the world is a dangerous place, the response continues. It's a PITA to unlearn what you have learned, especially if you have experiential evidence that it works. It's similar to your example of seeing anyone can be an aggressor. A lot of my clients repeatedly report that civilians can't be trusted. They've learned that the only people you can trust are either in your unit, or have shared a similar combat experience.
 
2012-12-28 10:45:28 AM  

Mr. Breeze: You'll never know until you actually challenge someone's intellect. Go look up the definition of murder. Better luck next time.


liam76: bakarocket: It's funny. Whenever people can't respond with logical responses, they resort to calling people "troll".

You are either a troll or too stupid to understand the definition of "murderer".


Murder is defined as unlawful killing, but it doesn't say whose law takes precedence, that of the murderer or the murderee. That of the killer or the victim.

You see, that's where they get you. The old testament leaves lots of room for interpretation, so people think it's cool. But that's bullshiat. God didn't give Moses a rule that said, "DoN't kill people (unless the person in charge of your country says it's okay, or unless the people you are killing deserve to be killed, etc.)"

That "it says murder not kill" thing, is too farking convenient. It ain't okay, and so Muslims, Jews, and Christians shouldn't be okay with it.

And Jesus was very clear on this point too, and anyone who calls themselves a Christian (and who actually follows the teachings) is going to have issues when told to kill people.

It's cool though. Ignore my initial point - which was that your entire culture worships a man who said killing is bad and that this could lead to issues when people are told to kill others - and focus on the subjective part that is irrelevant to the discussion of mental health.

There's no trolling going here. I just disagree vehemently with the national hypocrisy. Perhaps that is indistinguishable from trolling, because everyone is going to disagree with me.

The definition of murder is subjective. If you don't understand the truth of this statement, your contributions to the discussion are as worthless as the bytes used to display them.
 
2012-12-28 10:45:41 AM  

PonceAlyosha: Flakeloaf: I'm an Egyptian!: Flakeloaf: Schroedinger's Glory Hole: Kygz: If the Senior Non-Coms would quit farking with the juniors all the time with the chicken shiat, maybe we could get these numbers down a little bit.

At least 30% of suicides are directly related to demands to blouse boots.

More like "my old boss was a barely-literate, inhuman farkwad whose inability to unerstadn my job in no way impaired his ability to criticize it or reprioritize my life to revolve around meaningless bullshiat, so that's exactly how I'm going to treat you. Now go rewrite our entire unit SOP manual, I want to look good this APS."

There's an academic term for this type of behavior. If you read historian Paul Fussell's work on the life of the average soldier in WWII, Wartime, he devotes an entire chapter to this. The chapter is called "Chickenshiat."

Sounds like a fun read. Thanks!

Here's a copy, for the edutainment of the thread.


That was about five paragraphs longer than it really needed to be. The rest of it was just needless stretching of his vocabulary. Still, reality sucks.
 
2012-12-28 10:52:34 AM  

Gone In 26 Minutes: PonceAlyosha: Flakeloaf: I'm an Egyptian!: Flakeloaf: Schroedinger's Glory Hole: Kygz: If the Senior Non-Coms would quit farking with the juniors all the time with the chicken shiat, maybe we could get these numbers down a little bit.

At least 30% of suicides are directly related to demands to blouse boots.

More like "my old boss was a barely-literate, inhuman farkwad whose inability to unerstadn my job in no way impaired his ability to criticize it or reprioritize my life to revolve around meaningless bullshiat, so that's exactly how I'm going to treat you. Now go rewrite our entire unit SOP manual, I want to look good this APS."

There's an academic term for this type of behavior. If you read historian Paul Fussell's work on the life of the average soldier in WWII, Wartime, he devotes an entire chapter to this. The chapter is called "Chickenshiat."

Sounds like a fun read. Thanks!

Here's a copy, for the edutainment of the thread.

That was about five paragraphs longer than it really needed to be. The rest of it was just needless stretching of his vocabulary. Still, reality sucks.


It's been a while, but I think that was just a excerpt. I remember the actual chapter being longer, with more examples.
 
2012-12-28 10:54:32 AM  

Bomb Head Mohammed: it has been estimated that the total compensation of even the lowliest US soldier is now in excess of $100,00 per year equivalent when you consider


Everyone I know that went into the military made out like bandits. Not to say this is clearly the norm, but in one example, four years in, never left the country, now has 1200+ benefits a month for life and has the GI bill paying for college and chipping in for housing during that time.

What the hell.
 
2012-12-28 10:59:33 AM  
Helicopter parents buffering their kids with prozac, ritalin, and anything else from the evils of the world, their own padded cells, life is perfect, nothing bad ever happens.

Then throw them in a war torn world and you complete the formula.

Safe Druggy and Comfy + War horrors = Suicide
 
2012-12-28 11:00:19 AM  

pciszek: Plus, these mamby-pamby young whippersnappers moving to the cities and deciding that they don't need cars.


It's true that car ownership numbers are trending down, but the idea that the US is car-obsessed is and has nearly always been a myth.   Passenger car ownership is actually lower per capita in the US than in any other developed nation.

i.imgur.com
Link
 
2012-12-28 11:01:28 AM  

namatad: clane: [cdn.motinetwork.net image 640x802]

hehehhhe so cute
but the war on republicans isnt a real war, just one in their tiny little insular minds


sterilizacija.files.wordpress.com
 
2012-12-28 11:12:07 AM  
Suicide is painless.
 
2012-12-28 11:36:35 AM  
It's cool guys. I bought a ribbon to put on my car.

/We all knew this was coming when we started to withdraw.
//And we knew it would be worse the longer it took to withdraw.
///Sucks. Go give a vet a high five today.
 
2012-12-28 11:40:21 AM  

bakarocket: Mr. Breeze: You'll never know until you actually challenge someone's intellect. Go look up the definition of murder. Better luck next time.

liam76: bakarocket: It's funny. Whenever people can't respond with logical responses, they resort to calling people "troll".

You are either a troll or too stupid to understand the definition of "murderer".


Murder is defined as unlawful killing, but it doesn't say whose law takes precedence, that of the murderer or the murderee. That of the killer or the victim.

You see, that's where they get you. The old testament leaves lots of room for interpretation, so people think it's cool. But that's bullshiat. God didn't give Moses a rule that said, "DoN't kill people (unless the person in charge of your country says it's okay, or unless the people you are killing deserve to be killed, etc.)"

That "it says murder not kill" thing, is too farking convenient. It ain't okay, and so Muslims, Jews, and Christians shouldn't be okay with it.

And Jesus was very clear on this point too, and anyone who calls themselves a Christian (and who actually follows the teachings) is going to have issues when told to kill people.

It's cool though. Ignore my initial point - which was that your entire culture worships a man who said killing is bad and that this could lead to issues when people are told to kill others - and focus on the subjective part that is irrelevant to the discussion of mental health.

There's no trolling going here. I just disagree vehemently with the national hypocrisy. Perhaps that is indistinguishable from trolling, because everyone is going to disagree with me.

The definition of murder is subjective. If you don't understand the truth of this statement, your contributions to the discussion are as worthless as the bytes used to display them.


When the government is meant to be secular you have to throw the religious aspect out the window. Additionally, war and killing is a big part of the Old Testament. You can't simply pick and choose what scripture supports your argument. In the years following the 10 commandments, the Hebrew populace in accordance with God's will, took Jericho. They didn't simply move in and set up camp.

And getting the label of troll is not simply about having disagreeable opinions. It's about attitude and using intentionally inflammatory comments that you know are not conducive to respectable discourse.
 
2012-12-28 11:42:28 AM  

Babwa Wawa: It's true that car ownership numbers are trending down, but the idea that the US is car-obsessed is and has nearly always been a myth. Passenger car ownership is actually lower per capita in the US than in any other developed nation.


Whoa, that is freaky. But I don't see the UK on that chart. Also, I gotta wonder if it has anything to do with the US having more of its population under the age of 20 than most developed nations.
 
2012-12-28 11:54:17 AM  
After reading the article and FARKer's comments, I started wondering about afew things.

Back in the Vietnam war, we had the Draft, where, essentially, you walked out of high school and into the military. None of us knew the REAL conditions over there due to restrictions on the media. It would not be until nearly a decade after the war that we got to see the real situation and hear the stories of the soldiers who got thrown into hell and the gawdawful f**kup made by Politicians deciding they knew more than the seasoned Military Leaders about battlefield tactics.

I don't recall there being that many suicides.

I do recall the huge increase in our soldiers coming home maimed both physically and mentally and facing more problems with the VA and the military due to it not having been declared an actual war. Plus, the tide of public opinion was against them and even the VFW would not accept them into their ranks.

I had heard of soldiers deliberately shooting themselves in non-fatal areas of their bodies to get sent home as injured. Then I heard of soldiers going kind of crazy over there. (Putting severed Vietcong heads on their tanks, wearing collections of severed Vietcong ears, shooting up non-combatants.)

Many of the vets I knew came home 'changed' and different.

Many of us kids graduating high school were looking forward to becoming 21 so we could legally drink and starting careers and for a huge percentage, we got snatched into the Army, hastily taught how to kill and shipped to that jungle hell of a nation.

This war is volunteer. No draft. The politicians are not nit-picking it to death. We don't have wave after wave of anti-war protests. Soldiers do not have to fight for their benefits after they return home.

But, like Vietnam, they have to fight in an environment where the enemy hides among the civilians and killing innocents carries a high penalty.

Then again, the soldiers are rotated through time and time again, but still, they were volunteers not draftee's. Yes it screws up their lives, but they knew that going in.

They don't have all of the nasty traps the Vietcong set for our soldiers, but they have IEDs, searing hot environment, civilians that smile at them one moment and try and kill them the next and no, real clear end in sight.

I'm not a soldier. I'm only guessing at what could make the suicide rate so high in this war. All I know is that I would not want to be in their shoes.
 
2012-12-28 12:04:02 PM  

Mr. Breeze: When the government is meant to be secular you have to throw the religious aspect out the window. Additionally, war and killing is a big part of the Old Testament. You can't simply pick and choose what scripture supports your argument. In the years following the 10 commandments, the Hebrew populace in accordance with God's will, took Jericho. They didn't simply move in and set up camp.

And getting the label of troll is not simply about having disagreeable opinions. It's about attitude and using intentionally inflammatory comments that you know are not conducive to respectable discourse


I would have gone with "stupid" vice "inflammatory" but very well said.
 
2012-12-28 12:05:54 PM  

bakarocket: Ignore my initial point - which was that your entire culture worships a man who said killing is bad and that this could lead to issues when people are told to kill others


What culture are you speaking of, BTW?

My culture has a signifigant number of Athiests, Jews, and Muslims to name justa few of the groups who don't worship a pacifist.
 
2012-12-28 12:10:21 PM  
Says a lot about the mentally weak kids we're churning out. Keep helicoptering them, folks! It really helps them grow into strong adults.
 
2012-12-28 12:13:16 PM  
I hope those of you who are making sweeping statements about those committing suicide will take the time to think about how everyone of those individuals had friends and family.


An they could have just have easily been someone you would personally know.
 
2012-12-28 12:14:21 PM  
Still 200 less than teems murdered in Chicago this year.
 
2012-12-28 12:40:34 PM  

Errk: Is the percentage of suicides up for all military? For combat troops? For civillians?


Fark I am disappoint. It took 19 comments to get to this. Numbers mean nothing without context. What's the rate? How does it compare to the rate of other demographics?

/War is not healthy for children and other living things.
 
2012-12-28 12:50:10 PM  

Rik01: I had heard of soldiers deliberately shooting themselves in non-fatal areas of their bodies to get sent home as injured. Then I heard of soldiers going kind of crazy over there. (Putting severed Vietcong heads on their tanks, wearing collections of severed Vietcong ears, shooting up non-combatants.)

But, like Vietnam, they have to fight in an environment where the enemy hides among the civilians and killing innocents carries a high penalty.

Then again, the soldiers are rotated through time and time again, but still, they were volunteers not draft ...


See, that's a detail. Back in Nam, American soldiers that found themselves in a crazy situation...went crazy. And were not immediately Section 8ed, because hell, it worked. They were still crazy when they were sent back to the world, but the bosses didn't give a shiat-after all, what were the chances that Mr. Ear Necklace was actually going to survive long enough to be rotated back?

Today's soldiers don't have that option.

The nature of the asymmetric warfare has also changed: Viet Cong worked in the jungle, but today's war is mostly in cities. Today's soldiers have been trained to see every abandoned car as a potential car bomb, every shrieking lunatic in rags as a potential bomb vest on feet. When those soldiers go home-they're surrounded by abandoned cars and halfbent hoboes, so those alarms go off ALL THE TIME. Then there's the magnitude of what a "booby trap" causes. Failing a spot check in Vietnam...means a guy get stabbed through the foot by a Punji trap, or a hand grenade in a Coke can ruins your squad's day. Bad, yes. In Iraq, it means the fifty pounds of Semtex in the trunk goes off...
 
2012-12-28 01:15:47 PM  
www.bushcenter.com

Saddam was a bad man, and the world is much better off without him in it. The U.S. now has a pipeline in Afghanistan and we'll be able to ship oil to China much easier. Our fine fighting men and women should be proud of the sacrifices they've made to make our world safer, and oil profiteer friendlier. Any profits the U.S. experiences because of the fracturing my wars have caused, in those desert regions, is just icing on the cake. God blessed America, and we'll reap the harvests for many generations to come.
 
2012-12-28 01:43:14 PM  

MythDragon: AverageAmericanGuy: I HATE IT WHN EPEOLPLE MIGIGN THE farkING TRRRPOTS

Drunk, functionaly retarded, or some kind of meta-troll?


What do you mean, "or"?
 
2012-12-28 01:44:05 PM  
Obviously basic training has been pussified beyond its ability to perform its function. They are supposed to be homicidal, not suicidal.

I wonder how many fat girls there are running around with air assault badges now. Fat girls have always been the standard for airborne though.
 
2012-12-28 01:53:09 PM  

Rik01: After reading the article and FARKer's comments, I started wondering about afew things.

Back in the Vietnam war, we had the Draft, where, essentially, you walked out of high school and into the military. None of us knew the REAL conditions over there due to restrictions on the media. It would not be until nearly a decade after the war that we got to see the real situation and hear the stories of the soldiers who got thrown into hell and the gawdawful f**kup made by Politicians deciding they knew more than the seasoned Military Leaders about battlefield tactics.

I don't recall there being that many suicides.

I do recall the huge increase in our soldiers coming home maimed both physically and mentally and facing more problems with the VA and the military due to it not having been declared an actual war. Plus, the tide of public opinion was against them and even the VFW would not accept them into their ranks.

I had heard of soldiers deliberately shooting themselves in non-fatal areas of their bodies to get sent home as injured. Then I heard of soldiers going kind of crazy over there. (Putting severed Vietcong heads on their tanks, wearing collections of severed Vietcong ears, shooting up non-combatants.)

Many of the vets I knew came home 'changed' and different.

Many of us kids graduating high school were looking forward to becoming 21 so we could legally drink and starting careers and for a huge percentage, we got snatched into the Army, hastily taught how to kill and shipped to that jungle hell of a nation.

This war is volunteer. No draft. The politicians are not nit-picking it to death. We don't have wave after wave of anti-war protests. Soldiers do not have to fight for their benefits after they return home.

But, like Vietnam, they have to fight in an environment where the enemy hides among the civilians and killing innocents carries a high penalty.

Then again, the soldiers are rotated through time and time again, but still, they were volunteers not draft ...


You're no dummy, obviously. Put some of that together and look at how "military life" is advertised. It must be advertised of course, since there is no draft any more. No draft means no protests. Drone strikes prevent loss of American lives, so no social pressure related to wars anymore.

We have stagnating wages across the board, and education costs are rising. When Uncle Sam came along to ask for a hand in 2002, they played God Smack songs and showed jets landing on aircraft carriers. The slogan was "Army of One".

Now the ads are "It's not just a uniform, it's a ticket, an education, a door, a pathway to a brighter future!" We'll pay for your education, we'll train you, we'll get you contacts in the industry you like...

They are attracting people who are running out of options ALREADY. BEFORE they join. And it's no surprise that when they come back and find out that they STILL can't afford college and have no real job prospects that they find themselves right back where they were, with no options.
 
2012-12-28 01:53:41 PM  
There IS a reason for some of the chickenshiat, soldiers are supposed to be surly enough that they walk around all day looking for any excuse to fark something/somebody up beyond recognition. This is why they are a poor choice for walking door to door passing out hugs and kisses, building playgrounds, schools or whatever else the powers that be have those poor bastards doing since the shooting stopped.
 
2012-12-28 01:54:15 PM  

pciszek: Babwa Wawa: It's true that car ownership numbers are trending down, but the idea that the US is car-obsessed is and has nearly always been a myth. Passenger car ownership is actually lower per capita in the US than in any other developed nation.

Whoa, that is freaky. But I don't see the UK on that chart. Also, I gotta wonder if it has anything to do with the US having more of its population under the age of 20 than most developed nations. shiatloads of roads, but no parking.

 
2012-12-28 03:06:50 PM  

bakarocket: AverageAmericanGuy: arefott Gen

AverageAmericanGuy: bakarocket: mbillips: Oh, look, it's a baby troll. How adorable! Don't scare it, and somebody get a towel to wipe the drool off its bib.

Fortunately for most of the posters on the internet, trolling is not defined as "disagreeing with other people".

When people are taught to believe in the sanctity of life and in a religion that despises the concept of murder, they will have issues when they are told to kill other people.

ohg od oyou sound like one ot othose "Barefott Gen "loves. sometimes s a fightn fins't escabpale.

I'm so confused by everything in this post.


Cut the hot dog eater some slack, English isn't his native language.
 
2012-12-28 03:29:12 PM  

Ishidan: Rik01: I had heard of soldiers deliberately shooting themselves in non-fatal areas of their bodies to get sent home as injured. Then I heard of soldiers going kind of crazy over there. (Putting severed Vietcong heads on their tanks, wearing collections of severed Vietcong ears, shooting up non-combatants.)

But, like Vietnam, they have to fight in an environment where the enemy hides among the civilians and killing innocents carries a high penalty.

Then again, the soldiers are rotated through time and time again, but still, they were volunteers not draft ...

See, that's a detail. Back in Nam, American soldiers that found themselves in a crazy situation...went crazy. And were not immediately Section 8ed, because hell, it worked. They were still crazy when they were sent back to the world, but the bosses didn't give a shiat-after all, what were the chances that Mr. Ear Necklace was actually going to survive long enough to be rotated back?

Today's soldiers don't have that option.

The nature of the asymmetric warfare has also changed: Viet Cong worked in the jungle, but today's war is mostly in cities. Today's soldiers have been trained to see every abandoned car as a potential car bomb, every shrieking lunatic in rags as a potential bomb vest on feet. When those soldiers go home-they're surrounded by abandoned cars and halfbent hoboes, so those alarms go off ALL THE TIME. Then there's the magnitude of what a "booby trap" causes. Failing a spot check in Vietnam...means a guy get stabbed through the foot by a Punji trap, or a hand grenade in a Coke can ruins your squad's day. Bad, yes. In Iraq, it means the fifty pounds of Semtex in the trunk goes off...


I don't compare Vietnam and Iraq/Afghanistan, but you do raise some valid points. Took me about 18 months back before I could control my reflexive swerves away from anything on the side of the road. And as you say, operating in a "mostly ok but some people want to kill you" environment is extremely taxing, especially when you lose battlebuddies. Assume everyone wants you dead, but realize the majority don't. It's tough to shed that mentaity, but most of us can after a while; some can't. The suicides are usually dudes who lost their family support structure during deployment, or young guys away from home for the first time and/or who experience a major break-up for the first time.
 
2012-12-28 03:32:34 PM  

BeesNuts: We have stagnating wages across the board, and education costs are rising. When Uncle Sam came along to ask for a hand in 2002, they played God Smack songs and showed jets landing on aircraft carriers. The slogan was "Army of One".
(edit: also, Aim High for the Air Force, and "Army of One" was replacing "Be All That You Can Be". Notably, the Army made no promises about what "all you can be" really is-and the Army needs ditch diggers too. LOTS of ditch diggers.)
Now the ads are "It's not just a uniform, it's a ticket, an education, a door, a pathway to a brighter future!" We'll pay for your education, we'll train you, we'll get you contacts in the industry you like...They are attracting people who are running out of options ALREADY. BEFORE they join.


Hmm. Interesting, I think I'll sum up American military recruiting over the last century.

WWI and WWII: Appeal to patriotism and masculinity. Uncle Sam wants you! Don't let your country down! Come learn how to fire big guns! Chicks dig a man in uniform-here's a chick in uniform to prove it. Now, we're not saying that this is the only way chicks will want to get into your pants, but...
Vietnam: Appeal? fark you, we don't need to appeal to nobody. Draft, motherfarker! Press ganging was good enough for the 18th century, it's good enough for you!
GW1: We're looking for professionals we can trust with guns and the latest in classified, whizbang hardware. Think you're good enough?
GWOT: We offer a steady paycheck and commissary privileges, and veteran's preference in government jobs for when you're not here anymore. We don't expect you to come here to be here.

(say I never noticed before that Gulf War and Global War onterror both start with GW. How fitting. But I digress.)

Zat about it?
 
2012-12-28 05:29:19 PM  

pciszek: Whoa, that is freaky. But I don't see the UK on that chart. Also, I gotta wonder if it has anything to do with the US having more of its population under the age of 20 than most developed nations.


UK is relatively low.  The stats that bolster the myth of US as a bunch of car-hoarders are those that include commercial vehicles and exclude motorcycles.  In the US, motorcycles are not nearly as useful as they are in snow-free, dense countries like UKI, and we carry more freight by highway than European countries because of the higher population density.

Nonetheless, the image of the US as some car-obsessed country is purely myth.
 
2012-12-28 05:35:52 PM  

pciszek: Whoa, that is freaky. But I don't see the UK on that chart. Also, I gotta wonder if it has anything to do with the US having more of its population under the age of 20 than most developed nations.


Further, the myth is perpetuated by European countries as an explanation for the dominance of American car makers world-wide.  The idea is that massive demand stateside allows American carmakers to undercut european makers.

Which is horsesh*t of course, as demonstrated by the success of Japanese and Korean carmakers, and belied by the recent resurgence of VW.
 
2012-12-28 08:09:14 PM  
Better take away their guns before they hurt themselves.
 
2012-12-28 10:39:17 PM  
zenobia: Fark I am disappoint. It took 19 comments to get to this. Numbers mean nothing without context. What's the rate? How does it compare to the rate of other demographics?

/War is not healthy for children and other living things.


I know. The media and many parties thrive on just throwing numbers out there. You can make the math work many ways and sound it terrible or good.
 
2012-12-29 02:11:25 AM  

Ishidan: Rik01: I had heard of soldiers deliberately shooting themselves in non-fatal areas of their bodies to get sent home as injured. Then I heard of soldiers going kind of crazy over there. (Putting severed Vietcong heads on their tanks, wearing collections of severed Vietcong ears, shooting up non-combatants.)

But, like Vietnam, they have to fight in an environment where the enemy hides among the civilians and killing innocents carries a high penalty.

Then again, the soldiers are rotated through time and time again, but still, they were volunteers not draft ...

See, that's a detail. Back in Nam, American soldiers that found themselves in a crazy situation...went crazy. And were not immediately Section 8ed, because hell, it worked. They were still crazy when they were sent back to the world, but the bosses didn't give a shiat-after all, what were the chances that Mr. Ear Necklace was actually going to survive long enough to be rotated back?

Today's soldiers don't have that option.

The nature of the asymmetric warfare has also changed: Viet Cong worked in the jungle, but today's war is mostly in cities. Today's soldiers have been trained to see every abandoned car as a potential car bomb, every shrieking lunatic in rags as a potential bomb vest on feet. When those soldiers go home-they're surrounded by abandoned cars and halfbent hoboes, so those alarms go off ALL THE TIME. Then there's the magnitude of what a "booby trap" causes. Failing a spot check in Vietnam...means a guy get stabbed through the foot by a Punji trap, or a hand grenade in a Coke can ruins your squad's day. Bad, yes. In Iraq, it means the fifty pounds of Semtex in the trunk goes off...


This, On top of that, even though this is a volunteer military, there are a lot of folks who volunteered because the economy was so far in the dumps and they had no other outlook to make ends meet but to join the military. I've seen a lot of them ... good and bad. The problem with suicides in the military right now is that we condition ourselves to be able to handle any situation. When we can't, we get the guys that break down and kill themselves, specifically when they get home and can't deal with regular life anymore.
 
Displayed 231 of 231 comments

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »
Advertisement
On Twitter





In Other Media


  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.

Report