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(Outside Online)   What it feels like to freeze to death   (outsideonline.com) divider line 108
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14468 clicks; posted to Main » on 29 Dec 2012 at 11:13 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-29 10:21:25 AM  
Chilling.
 
2012-12-29 10:38:58 AM  
Cold?
 
2012-12-29 10:50:43 AM  
img832.imageshack.us

Vhat killed da dinosauhs?

DA ICE AAAAAAAGE! ARHRAHRARHBWARHAGUGHRHRAHGHGGH
 
2012-12-29 11:17:48 AM  
How does anyone know? Seems like all we know is how it feels to almost freeze to death.
 
2012-12-29 11:17:57 AM  
On a related note: As I understand it most of what we know about hypothermia, medically speaking, is the result of Nazi experiments on Jews where they deliberately exposed them to freezing water to try to understand hypothermia. Many died of course.
 
2012-12-29 11:20:45 AM  
4.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-12-29 11:23:27 AM  

KarmicDisaster: How does anyone know? Seems like all we know is how it feels to almost freeze to death.


I think a few people, like Beck Weathers, have been close enough that I'm willing to take their word for it, although it does make my long-term senior-care plan sound less appealing....

/There might not be any ice-floes left anyway.
 
2012-12-29 11:25:27 AM  
Great. Now I have to go outside. Granted it's like 40 degrees out BUT STILL.
 
2012-12-29 11:32:28 AM  
But it still feels better than submitting yesterday's Reddit links.
 
2012-12-29 11:32:50 AM  
Can someone without ADD tell me what happened in that article? I tried to skim through it, but got lost in the various tenses and points of view. Did the author almost freeze? Did the author make it? Addled minds want to know, but not badly enough to wade back into the avalanche of text.

/kthx
 
2012-12-29 11:36:07 AM  

BiffDangler: On a related note: As I understand it most of what we know about hypothermia, medically speaking, is the result of Nazi experiments on Jews where they deliberately exposed them to freezing water to try to understand hypothermia. Many died of course.


Yeah, they mention in the article some test results from experiments at Dachau. That's actually my biggest gripe about the article: by including that sort of thing, it seems to me that you're validating the scientific "merit" of such experiments. I don't think those d-nozzles deserve to have anything they did put forth as having scientific value, period. Any actual scientists who feel like stepping forward to argue that point, please feel free.
 
2012-12-29 11:37:49 AM  
We should never have gone ziplining.
 
2012-12-29 11:39:21 AM  
That was a terrible read.

/Also not accurate
 
2012-12-29 11:40:09 AM  

FarkTorrance: BiffDangler: On a related note: As I understand it most of what we know about hypothermia, medically speaking, is the result of Nazi experiments on Jews where they deliberately exposed them to freezing water to try to understand hypothermia. Many died of course.

Yeah, they mention in the article some test results from experiments at Dachau. That's actually my biggest gripe about the article: by including that sort of thing, it seems to me that you're validating the scientific "merit" of such experiments. I don't think those d-nozzles deserve to have anything they did put forth as having scientific value, period. Any actual scientists who feel like stepping forward to argue that point, please feel free.


Ya cant think of science in that way.

Also, the guy wouldnt have had any problem if he could have just built a fire.

The article writer could learn a thing or two from this writer.
 
2012-12-29 11:40:26 AM  
You can tell that subby didn't grow up in a mega (as in a population in the millions) city. If s/he had, instead of "What it feels like to freeze to death," that headline would have been "What it feels like to die of hypothermia"
 
2012-12-29 11:43:11 AM  

Madbassist1: FarkTorrance: BiffDangler: On a related note: As I understand it most of what we know about hypothermia, medically speaking, is the result of Nazi experiments on Jews where they deliberately exposed them to freezing water to try to understand hypothermia. Many died of course.

Yeah, they mention in the article some test results from experiments at Dachau. That's actually my biggest gripe about the article: by including that sort of thing, it seems to me that you're validating the scientific "merit" of such experiments. I don't think those d-nozzles deserve to have anything they did put forth as having scientific value, period. Any actual scientists who feel like stepping forward to argue that point, please feel free.

Ya cant think of science in that way.

Also, the guy wouldnt have had any problem if he could have just built a fire.

The article writer could learn a thing or two from this writer.


In what way? Is expecting the scientific method to exclude torture and mass-murder setting the bar too high?
 
2012-12-29 11:45:55 AM  

FarkTorrance: Madbassist1: FarkTorrance: BiffDangler: On a related note: As I understand it most of what we know about hypothermia, medically speaking, is the result of Nazi experiments on Jews where they deliberately exposed them to freezing water to try to understand hypothermia. Many died of course.

Yeah, they mention in the article some test results from experiments at Dachau. That's actually my biggest gripe about the article: by including that sort of thing, it seems to me that you're validating the scientific "merit" of such experiments. I don't think those d-nozzles deserve to have anything they did put forth as having scientific value, period. Any actual scientists who feel like stepping forward to argue that point, please feel free.

Ya cant think of science in that way.

Also, the guy wouldnt have had any problem if he could have just built a fire.

The article writer could learn a thing or two from this writer.

In what way? Is expecting the scientific method to exclude torture and mass-murder setting the bar too high?


I am sure you can make it all better with that time machine of yours
 
2012-12-29 11:46:09 AM  
"The lack of insulating fat over your muscles allows the cold"

kind of lost me at this point.

also it doesn't describe properly the pain of the cold, how agonizingly cold, how awful it is to freeze, the article makes it seem simple and easy.
 
2012-12-29 11:48:40 AM  

FarkTorrance: BiffDangler: On a related note: As I understand it most of what we know about hypothermia, medically speaking, is the result of Nazi experiments on Jews where they deliberately exposed them to freezing water to try to understand hypothermia. Many died of course.

Yeah, they mention in the article some test results from experiments at Dachau. That's actually my biggest gripe about the article: by including that sort of thing, it seems to me that you're validating the scientific "merit" of such experiments. I don't think those d-nozzles deserve to have anything they did put forth as having scientific value, period. Any actual scientists who feel like stepping forward to argue that point, please feel free.


Are you going to disrespect the tortured souls even further by throwing out the results that they gave us? it's not like pretending those experiments didn't happen is going to bring anyone back to life.
 
2012-12-29 11:50:09 AM  

Toshiro Mifune's Letter Opener: [img832.imageshack.us image 431x300]

Vhat killed da dinosauhs?

DA ICE AAAAAAAGE! ARHRAHRARHBWARHAGUGHRHRAHGHGGH


That made my morning. Thanks TMLO!
 
2012-12-29 11:50:34 AM  

FarkTorrance: In what way? Is expecting the scientific method to exclude torture and mass-murder setting the bar too high?


Expecting the scientific method to include or exclude anything based on morality seems to detract from the veracity of the results. YOMV,
 
GCD
2012-12-29 11:51:01 AM  
Ironically, almost all the known information that is out there on hypothermia originally came from the Nazis.

In 1941, the Luftwaffe conducted experiments with the intent of discovering means to prevent and treat hypothermia. One study forced subjects to endure a tank of ice water for up to five hours.

Another study placed prisoners naked in the open air for several hours with temperatures as low as −6 °C (21 °F). Besides studying the physical effects of cold exposure, the experimenters also assessed different methods of rewarming survivors.

There's no doubt that the tests were absolutely inhumane and there's no question that Dr. Josef Mengele was a deranged lunatic...but up until then, there wasn't a lot of information known about hypothermia.
 
2012-12-29 11:51:31 AM  

FarkTorrance: BiffDangler: On a related note: As I understand it most of what we know about hypothermia, medically speaking, is the result of Nazi experiments on Jews where they deliberately exposed them to freezing water to try to understand hypothermia. Many died of course.

Yeah, they mention in the article some test results from experiments at Dachau. That's actually my biggest gripe about the article: by including that sort of thing, it seems to me that you're validating the scientific "merit" of such experiments. I don't think those d-nozzles deserve to have anything they did put forth as having scientific value, period. Any actual scientists who feel like stepping forward to argue that point, please feel free.


Ever hear the old adage "even a blind pig finds mud once in awhile"? Information is information. It was terribly gained but we have it now and ignoring it only serves to disrespect the dead who had their lives stolen from them to get the information.

FarkTor, you sicken me.
 
2012-12-29 11:52:30 AM  

FarkTorrance: BiffDangler: On a related note: As I understand it most of what we know about hypothermia, medically speaking, is the result of Nazi experiments on Jews where they deliberately exposed them to freezing water to try to understand hypothermia. Many died of course.

Yeah, they mention in the article some test results from experiments at Dachau. That's actually my biggest gripe about the article: by including that sort of thing, it seems to me that you're validating the scientific "merit" of such experiments. I don't think those d-nozzles deserve to have anything they did put forth as having scientific value, period. Any actual scientists who feel like stepping forward to argue that point, please feel free.


I had to write a paper in college about the experiments - you were to choose either "the science should be used no matter how it was obtained" or "the science should never be used because of how it was obtained" and support your argument.
/chose the latter.
//still gives me chills thinking of the research I had to do (no pun intended)
 
2012-12-29 11:53:01 AM  
He lost me at "by this time you've moved off the road." No I haven't I'm not an idiot.
 
2012-12-29 11:54:19 AM  

Missicat: FarkTorrance: BiffDangler: On a related note: As I understand it most of what we know about hypothermia, medically speaking, is the result of Nazi experiments on Jews where they deliberately exposed them to freezing water to try to understand hypothermia. Many died of course.

Yeah, they mention in the article some test results from experiments at Dachau. That's actually my biggest gripe about the article: by including that sort of thing, it seems to me that you're validating the scientific "merit" of such experiments. I don't think those d-nozzles deserve to have anything they did put forth as having scientific value, period. Any actual scientists who feel like stepping forward to argue that point, please feel free.

I had to write a paper in college about the experiments - you were to choose either "the science should be used no matter how it was obtained" or "the science should never be used because of how it was obtained" and support your argument.
/chose the latter.
//still gives me chills thinking of the research I had to do (no pun intended)


I would be interested in talking to you about this. I think we could have a well-reasoned debate on the subject.
 
2012-12-29 11:55:43 AM  

FarkTorrance: Madbassist1: FarkTorrance: BiffDangler: On a related note: As I understand it most of what we know about hypothermia, medically speaking, is the result of Nazi experiments on Jews where they deliberately exposed them to freezing water to try to understand hypothermia. Many died of course.

Yeah, they mention in the article some test results from experiments at Dachau. That's actually my biggest gripe about the article: by including that sort of thing, it seems to me that you're validating the scientific "merit" of such experiments. I don't think those d-nozzles deserve to have anything they did put forth as having scientific value, period. Any actual scientists who feel like stepping forward to argue that point, please feel free.

Ya cant think of science in that way.

Also, the guy wouldnt have had any problem if he could have just built a fire.

The article writer could learn a thing or two from this writer.

In what way? Is expecting the scientific method to exclude torture and mass-murder setting the bar too high?


You know how I know you're not a scientist?
 
2012-12-29 11:58:18 AM  

stevejovi: FarkTorrance: Madbassist1: FarkTorrance: BiffDangler: On a related note: As I understand it most of what we know about hypothermia, medically speaking, is the result of Nazi experiments on Jews where they deliberately exposed them to freezing water to try to understand hypothermia. Many died of course.

Yeah, they mention in the article some test results from experiments at Dachau. That's actually my biggest gripe about the article: by including that sort of thing, it seems to me that you're validating the scientific "merit" of such experiments. I don't think those d-nozzles deserve to have anything they did put forth as having scientific value, period. Any actual scientists who feel like stepping forward to argue that point, please feel free.

Ya cant think of science in that way.

Also, the guy wouldnt have had any problem if he could have just built a fire.

The article writer could learn a thing or two from this writer.

In what way? Is expecting the scientific method to exclude torture and mass-murder setting the bar too high?

You know how I know you're not a scientist?


Are you talking to me? If so, you're right, I'm not, but I'd be interested in hearing 'how you know it' anyways. This is an interesting subject that I really hadnt expected to come up, but intrigues me.
 
2012-12-29 11:59:01 AM  
First Chill-Then Stupor-Then the Letting Go

As someone who froze half to death once, it's like this...

First you're wondering where you are, but you're not freezing to death, so it's okay.
You ask yourself questions, because you're near no human:

Whose woods these are I think I know.
His house is in the village, though;
He will not see me stopping here
To watch his woods fill up with snow.


Then you start to get mildly confused, for example, starting to think that the local animals are talking or having complex thoughts.

My little horse must think it queer
To stop without a farmhouse near
Between the woods and frozen lake
The darkest evening of the year.


The auditory hallucinations are the first ones. The silence of the snow starts to make noises. Now you're more confused...now you think the animals are capable of asking questions.

He gives his harness bells a shake
To ask if there is some mistake.
The only other sound's the sweep
Of easy wind and downy flake.


You start to repeat things, wondering if you've said it before, first just phrases, then whole sentences.

The woods are lovely, dark, and deep,
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.


Once you're at the repeating sentences stage, you decide to take a lay down in the snow since you're so sleepy. It ceases being cold to you, then you die.
 
2012-12-29 12:00:13 PM  
I'm sure there was a lot of data that came out of the experiments mentioned in the article and by other posters. But I'd ask which is the greater disrespect: discarding that data as morally tainted, or pretending the value of that information is in some way a silver lining that "gave their death meaning"? I think the best we can do is to respect and mourn them as victims of something awful; the worst is to offer their murderers (or those complicit in their torture) a voice in the scientific community, no matter how much you try to spin some sort of "greater good" merit from all this.
And at the end of the day, all the data in is case really offers is some finer points on what most of us with opposable thumbs already know: if it's freezing cold outside, you probably are better off staying in. Otherwise, wear something warm.
 
2012-12-29 12:03:01 PM  

FarkTorrance: BiffDangler: On a related note: As I understand it most of what we know about hypothermia, medically speaking, is the result of Nazi experiments on Jews where they deliberately exposed them to freezing water to try to understand hypothermia. Many died of course.

Yeah, they mention in the article some test results from experiments at Dachau. That's actually my biggest gripe about the article: by including that sort of thing, it seems to me that you're validating the scientific "merit" of such experiments. I don't think those d-nozzles deserve to have anything they did put forth as having scientific value, period. Any actual scientists who feel like stepping forward to argue that point, please feel free.


While it is merely anecdotal, and not from my personal experience, I remember my grandfather, a lifelong physician and surgeon, telling me about the surviving victims he personally found when he was in WW2, as well as experiences he had in other wars afterwards. He NEVER agreed with the methods that were used by the Nazis, however, he himself had used the RESULTS of their work in order to save other lives in conflicts in which he later served while in the military. He also used some of this knowledge in his private practice when he left the military, in order to help civilians as well.

Would you honestly tell a man like that, who's first and foremost concern was ALWAYS for his patients, that he should ignore the results of such work no matter how many lives it may save, merely because the methods used were abhorrent?

Knowledge in and of itself is not evil. Methods can be, I admit, but once the knowledge is there, isn't it better to honour the dead by using that knowledge to save others who don't have to die?
 
2012-12-29 12:03:33 PM  
Madbassist1

Also, the guy wouldnt have had any problem if he could have just built a fire.

I believe that story has saved countless lives.
 
2012-12-29 12:04:13 PM  

RKade: FarkTorrance: BiffDangler: On a related note: As I understand it most of what we know about hypothermia, medically speaking, is the result of Nazi experiments on Jews where they deliberately exposed them to freezing water to try to understand hypothermia. Many died of course.

Yeah, they mention in the article some test results from experiments at Dachau. That's actually my biggest gripe about the article: by including that sort of thing, it seems to me that you're validating the scientific "merit" of such experiments. I don't think those d-nozzles deserve to have anything they did put forth as having scientific value, period. Any actual scientists who feel like stepping forward to argue that point, please feel free.

Ever hear the old adage "even a blind pig finds mud once in awhile"? Information is information. It was terribly gained but we have it now and ignoring it only serves to disrespect the dead who had their lives stolen from them to get the information.

FarkTor, you sicken me.


Happy to disappoint you. You sound like you'd fit right in among the blind pigs.
 
2012-12-29 12:04:38 PM  
"I died in a really shiatty way, but at least good people will be saved by what my murderers learned--if anyone finds out."

I'd actually find solace in my own death with that little piece of legacy.

Space suits were designed with such data taken into consideration.

We know from the guillotine that the human brain will stay conscious for a matter of seconds after the head is severed. Henri Languille in 1905, for example. Charlotte Corday is another one from over 200 years ago. Her severed head was biatchslapped by Legros and she made a face at him.

Science can be brutal. Sticking your fingers in your ears and going "lala" just because you don't like fact doesn't change those facts. Deliberately ignoring what that asshole Mengele learned would, as previously mentioned, disrespect those who died, as well as put Mengele on a sort of pedestal.
 
2012-12-29 12:08:01 PM  

Cloudchaser Sakonige the Red Wolf: You can tell that subby didn't grow up in a mega (as in a population in the millions) city. If s/he had, instead of "What it feels like to freeze to death," that headline would have been "What it feels like to die of hypothermia"


Only people that grew up in a city with several million people call it hypothermia? Please explain.
 
2012-12-29 12:09:18 PM  

RKade: Missicat: FarkTorrance: BiffDangler: On a related note: As I understand it most of what we know about hypothermia, medically speaking, is the result of Nazi experiments on Jews where they deliberately exposed them to freezing water to try to understand hypothermia. Many died of course.

Yeah, they mention in the article some test results from experiments at Dachau. That's actually my biggest gripe about the article: by including that sort of thing, it seems to me that you're validating the scientific "merit" of such experiments. I don't think those d-nozzles deserve to have anything they did put forth as having scientific value, period. Any actual scientists who feel like stepping forward to argue that point, please feel free.

I had to write a paper in college about the experiments - you were to choose either "the science should be used no matter how it was obtained" or "the science should never be used because of how it was obtained" and support your argument.
/chose the latter.
//still gives me chills thinking of the research I had to do (no pun intended)

I would be interested in talking to you about this. I think we could have a well-reasoned debate on the subject.

 I have to admit....I wavered about choosing a side.  I based on decision on the fact that (as someone else pointed out here) using the information would somehow validate their experiments and put them forth as "scientists" rather than torturers.
No matter which point of view one supported, it was a tough paper to write.
 
2012-12-29 12:13:30 PM  
Air can hurt you, too.

Also, regarding the Dachau thing, really? We're expected to just ignore such information because of the source and methods? And then what? Pretend it does not exist? Remove whatever good came from such horrors? What the hell?
 
2012-12-29 12:16:54 PM  
FTA When your Jeep spins lazily off the mountain road and slams backward into a snowbank, you don't worry immediately about the cold.


After a day of skiing I always remove my jacket and fleece before I get in the car for the drive home but I always think about what would happen if I had a car wreck going over the mountain pass...would I be able to reach my outer layers and put them on while waiting for rescue.
 
2012-12-29 12:17:37 PM  
Could I skip going through all of that with the simple knowledge that a 4-wheel drive does not grants invulnerability to physics?
 
2012-12-29 12:17:56 PM  

LabGrrl: Once you're at the repeating sentences stage, you decide to take a lay down in the snow since you're so sleepy. It ceases being cold to you, then you die.


Close. The poet author was contemplating suicide.

Having gone though hypothermia, there is nothing that can be described as decision making at all.
 
2012-12-29 12:19:19 PM  

Primitive Screwhead: That made my morning. Thanks TMLO!


*tips hat*

Cheers!
 
2012-12-29 12:19:55 PM  

Missicat: RKade: Missicat:

I had to write a paper in college about the experiments - you were to choose either "the science should be used no matter how it was obtained" or "the science should never be used because of how it was obtained" and support your argument.
/chose the latter.
//still gives me chills thinking of the research I had to do (no pun intended)

I would be interested in talking to you about this. I think we could have a well-reasoned debate on the subject.
 I have to admit....I wavered about choosing a side.  I based on decision on the fact that (as someone else pointed out here) using the information would somehow validate their experiments and put them forth as "scientists" rather than torturers.
No matter which point of view one supported, it was a tough paper to write.


I can see that it's a thorny issue, and I don't expect there is an easy answer when weighed against real or hypothetical lives lost as a result of discarding morally-dubious scientific results. But I don't think science needs to be brutal, as camaroash suggests. I feel that allowing such brutally-derived data into the research community amounts to a sort of complicity. It sends a message, no matter how unintended, that the ends justifies the means. And I suppose that's an argument that will not be resolved anytime soon, certainly not in this thread.
 
2012-12-29 12:23:29 PM  

Missicat: RKade: Missicat: FarkTorrance: BiffDangler: On a related note: As I understand it most of what we know about hypothermia, medically speaking, is the result of Nazi experiments on Jews where they deliberately exposed them to freezing water to try to understand hypothermia. Many died of course.

Yeah, they mention in the article some test results from experiments at Dachau. That's actually my biggest gripe about the article: by including that sort of thing, it seems to me that you're validating the scientific "merit" of such experiments. I don't think those d-nozzles deserve to have anything they did put forth as having scientific value, period. Any actual scientists who feel like stepping forward to argue that point, please feel free.

I had to write a paper in college about the experiments - you were to choose either "the science should be used no matter how it was obtained" or "the science should never be used because of how it was obtained" and support your argument.
/chose the latter.
//still gives me chills thinking of the research I had to do (no pun intended)

I would be interested in talking to you about this. I think we could have a well-reasoned debate on the subject.
 I have to admit....I wavered about choosing a side.  I based on decision on the fact that (as someone else pointed out here) using the information would somehow validate their experiments and put them forth as "scientists" rather than torturers.
No matter which point of view one supported, it was a tough paper to write.


I don't doubt. It'd be a tightrope walk between sounding like an uncaring monster on one side and an ostrich with their head in the sand on the other. Kudos for, I assuming, not coming off as either. I respectfully disagree with you, however. To me, it's a very simple matter. Info is info. It's already out there all pink and naked so why not use it? Like I said above, it would disrespect the unfortunate dead to not use it, in my opinion.

It's a convo to have via email or IM, I think. No need to waste everyone else's time on here, right? :)
 
2012-12-29 12:24:05 PM  

LabGrrl: First Chill-Then Stupor-Then the Letting Go

As someone who froze half to death once, it's like this...

First you're wondering where you are, but you're not freezing to death, so it's okay.
You ask yourself questions, because you're near no human:

Whose woods these are I think I know.
His house is in the village, though;
He will not see me stopping here
To watch his woods fill up with snow.

Then you start to get mildly confused, for example, starting to think that the local animals are talking or having complex thoughts.

My little horse must think it queer
To stop without a farmhouse near
Between the woods and frozen lake
The darkest evening of the year.

The auditory hallucinations are the first ones. The silence of the snow starts to make noises. Now you're more confused...now you think the animals are capable of asking questions.

He gives his harness bells a shake
To ask if there is some mistake.
The only other sound's the sweep
Of easy wind and downy flake.

You start to repeat things, wondering if you've said it before, first just phrases, then whole sentences.

The woods are lovely, dark, and deep,
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.


Once you're at the repeating sentences stage, you decide to take a lay down in the snow since you're so sleepy. It ceases being cold to you, then you die.


Jesus. I think you just broke Robert Frost for me.
 
2012-12-29 12:25:19 PM  

Missicat: FarkTorrance: BiffDangler: On a related note: As I understand it most of what we know about hypothermia, medically speaking, is the result of Nazi experiments on Jews where they deliberately exposed them to freezing water to try to understand hypothermia. Many died of course.

Yeah, they mention in the article some test results from experiments at Dachau. That's actually my biggest gripe about the article: by including that sort of thing, it seems to me that you're validating the scientific "merit" of such experiments. I don't think those d-nozzles deserve to have anything they did put forth as having scientific value, period. Any actual scientists who feel like stepping forward to argue that point, please feel free.

I had to write a paper in college about the experiments - you were to choose either "the science should be used no matter how it was obtained" or "the science should never be used because of how it was obtained" and support your argument.
/chose the latter.
//still gives me chills thinking of the research I had to do (no pun intended)



How do you not use knowledge? I get disregarding evidence obtained illegally in a trial setting, but to ignore science culled from evil you'd have to pretend not to know the results. Does PETA not use products tested on animals because they declare that they haven't been tested? I suppose that's possible.
 
2012-12-29 12:25:20 PM  

FarkTorrance: It sends a message, no matter how unintended, that the ends justifies the means.


I don't think the perpetrators of such experiments care.
 
2012-12-29 12:28:10 PM  

FarkTorrance: Missicat: RKade: Missicat:

SNIP

I can see that it's a thorny issue, and I don't expect there is an easy answer when weighed against real or hypothetical lives lost as a result of discarding morally-dubious scientific results. But I don't think science needs to be brutal, as camaroash suggests. I feel that allowing such brutally-derived data into the research community amounts to a sort of complicity. It sends a message, no matter how unintended, that the ends justifies the means. And I suppose that's an argument that will not be resolved anytime soon, certainly not in this thread.


In science, especially in new science, the ends always justify the means. Once we have the twin bedrocks of hypothesis and data down can we build the nice house of ethical science.

www.oocities.org
Like Farnsworth said "SCIENCE CANNOT MOVE FORWARD WITHOUT HEAPS!"
 
2012-12-29 12:29:57 PM  

Abox: After a day of skiing I always remove my jacket and fleece before I get in the car for the drive home but I always think about what would happen if I had a car wreck going over the mountain pass...would I be able to reach my outer layers and put them on while waiting for rescue.


No. Does that answer your question? Open the windows and keep your clothes on.

I understand cold. I have traveled through cold. I have slept in snow routinely. There is a very short list of things not to do in cold. Let's look. Do not remove your clothes.
 
2012-12-29 12:30:34 PM  

generallyso: FarkTorrance: It sends a message, no matter how unintended, that the ends justifies the means.

I don't think the perpetrators of such experiments care.


I suppose the problem here is that I do.
 
2012-12-29 12:30:46 PM  

FarkTorrance: I'm sure there was a lot of data that came out of the experiments mentioned in the article and by other posters. But I'd ask which is the greater disrespect: discarding that data as morally tainted, or pretending the value of that information is in some way a silver lining that "gave their death meaning"? I think the best we can do is to respect and mourn them as victims of something awful; the worst is to offer their murderers (or those complicit in their torture) a voice in the scientific community, no matter how much you try to spin some sort of "greater good" merit from all this.


Firstly, how can you ask those of use reading this to honestly mourn for those people we've never met? This may sound heartless, but I didn't even mourn for my own grandfather when he died, I celebrated the well-lived life he had. I'm not trying to spin this as any type of greater good, but did your mother or anyone else in your family or friends ever tell you the phrase "waste not, want not"?

I view ignoring the knowledge that we've gained over the centuries, even that which was gained in a horrific fashion, as a waste. It would be a waste of lives, it would be a waste of information, and most importantly to me, it would be a waste of future lives which could potentially be helped by the information.

Forgive me for being so heartless as to think that I'd rather the information and knowledge be used to help those alive today and tomorrow, rather than ignoring it because of what was done to those who have been long since dead.

Oh, and for the record, once you stop giving coherent points and begin calling names, you've lost the discussion. Case in point:

To RKade:

FarkTorrance: Happy to disappoint you. You sound like you'd fit right in among the blind pigs.


This poster did nothing to insult you directly, they merely disagreed with the things you said. Your response was to tell them, perhaps not in so many words, but certainly in implication, that they'd fit in among Nazis. Well done. As of this point on, I'm disregarding all future comments from you, since you cannot keep yourself from attacking the argument rather than the arguer.
 
2012-12-29 12:33:31 PM  

Perez Hilton: Abox: After a day of skiing I always remove my jacket and fleece before I get in the car for the drive home but I always think about what would happen if I had a car wreck going over the mountain pass...would I be able to reach my outer layers and put them on while waiting for rescue.

No. Does that answer your question? Open the windows and keep your clothes on.

I understand cold. I have traveled through cold. I have slept in snow routinely. There is a very short list of things not to do in cold. Let's look. Do not remove your clothes.



Um...why would I open windows. I take my layers off for driving comfort but I keep the heat on.
 
2012-12-29 12:35:20 PM  

Myrric: FarkTorrance: I'm sure there was a lot of data that came out of the experiments mentioned in the article and by other posters. But I'd ask which is the greater disrespect: discarding that data as morally tainted, or pretending the value of that information is in some way a silver lining that "gave their death meaning"? I think the best we can do is to respect and mourn them as victims of something awful; the worst is to offer their murderers (or those complicit in their torture) a voice in the scientific community, no matter how much you try to spin some sort of "greater good" merit from all this.

Firstly, how can you ask those of use reading this to honestly mourn for those people we've never met? This may sound heartless, but I didn't even mourn for my own grandfather when he died, I celebrated the well-lived life he had. I'm not trying to spin this as any type of greater good, but did your mother or anyone else in your family or friends ever tell you the phrase "waste not, want not"?

I view ignoring the knowledge that we've gained over the centuries, even that which was gained in a horrific fashion, as a waste. It would be a waste of lives, it would be a waste of information, and most importantly to me, it would be a waste of future lives which could potentially be helped by the information.

Forgive me for being so heartless as to think that I'd rather the information and knowledge be used to help those alive today and tomorrow, rather than ignoring it because of what was done to those who have been long since dead.

Oh, and for the record, once you stop giving coherent points and begin calling names, you've lost the discussion. Case in point:

To RKade: FarkTorrance: Happy to disappoint you. You sound like you'd fit right in among the blind pigs.

This poster did nothing to insult you directly, they merely disagreed with the things you said. Your response was to tell them, perhaps not in so many words, but certainly in implication, that they'd fit in among N ...


So...telling me I disgust him is not an insult, comparing him to a blind pig is. Interesting. Yes, I think I'll be happy to be on your ignore list.
 
2012-12-29 12:36:14 PM  
deeperintomovies.net
 
2012-12-29 12:36:54 PM  

Abox: Um...why would I open windows. I take my layers off for driving comfort but I keep the heat on.


Don't do that. If you turn up the heat, you will want to remove your layers. For comfort turn off the heat and keep on your layers. There will be plenty of time to get undressed when you are home and dry.
 
2012-12-29 12:37:49 PM  

FarkTorrance: generallyso: FarkTorrance: It sends a message, no matter how unintended, that the ends justifies the means.

I don't think the perpetrators of such experiments care.

I suppose the problem here is that I do.


I don't understand. You care about what?
 
2012-12-29 12:39:23 PM  

Gough: KarmicDisaster: How does anyone know? Seems like all we know is how it feels to almost freeze to death.

I think a few people, like Beck Weathers, have been close enough that I'm willing to take their word for it, although it does make my long-term senior-care plan sound less appealing....

/There might not be any ice-floes left anyway.


Do I have a great business plan for you...
 
2012-12-29 12:44:52 PM  

Perez Hilton: Abox: Um...why would I open windows. I take my layers off for driving comfort but I keep the heat on.

Don't do that. If you turn up the heat, you will want to remove your layers. For comfort turn off the heat and keep on your layers.



That sounds less comfortable.


/but freezing to death on the side of a road would be even LESS comfortable!
//that's why i drive carefully
///you should prepare for the unexpected...trust me i have lots of experience in the cold
////ok i'll take it under advisement.
 
2012-12-29 12:46:46 PM  
I almost froze to death, twice, as a stoned idiot in my 20's. Once, trying to find a bus stop in Medford, MA; The second while hitchhiking on route 202 over the Berkshires in western MA. Saved by a bus and a hippie in a VW bug, respectively. Both times lots of shivering for like a half hour after getting into the warm vehicle.

/cold cool story
//Thank you, bus.
///Thank you hippie in a VW bug.
 
2012-12-29 12:49:55 PM  
I spend a lot of time in the woods, often alone with my dog and with a pair of snowshoes or skis on.

I didn't like reading this article. It sounds like my worst possible day.

Of course, I always tell someone where I'm going and when I expect to return, I don't go into the backcountry without supplies, I always have repair kits and tools for my bindings etc etc. I also don't make bad decisions like "I'll leave the car and walk 5k through the snow" when stuck in a snowdrift.

Still....didn't like reading tfa. Made me feel all squicky.
 
2012-12-29 12:50:07 PM  
So, we learn here that, in order not to freeze to death:
1. We need to know how to drive a Jeep without spinning it and planting it so deep that we can't get it out of a snow drift.
2. We shouldn't try to ski uphill.
3. We shouldn't try to ski uphill in shiatty equipment.
4. We shouldn't spend FORTY FIVE FARKING MINUTES looking for a piece that fell off of our shiatty equipment.
5. We should not have friends with jingle bells on their doors.

To recap: If you're a maroon 45 ways 'til Sunday, you might freeze to death.
 
2012-12-29 12:51:23 PM  
 
2012-12-29 12:54:35 PM  

Abox: /but freezing to death on the side of a road would be even LESS comfortable!
//that's why i drive carefully
///you should prepare for the unexpected...trust me i have lots of experience in the cold
////ok i'll take it under advisement.



When younger I needed to go south for Christmas so I put a post on my university board for car shares. I accepted two young women because they would pay for gas. We set south through one of the nastiest stretches of highway in very cold weather. I dressed for the weather. They dressed for southern Mexico. The road closed and I had to keep two kids alive.
 
2012-12-29 12:59:55 PM  

KarmicDisaster: How does anyone know? Seems like all we know is how it feels to almost freeze to death.


blogs.amctv.com
Today is a good day to die.
 
2012-12-29 01:00:30 PM  

Perez Hilton: Abox: /but freezing to death on the side of a road would be even LESS comfortable!
//that's why i drive carefully
///you should prepare for the unexpected...trust me i have lots of experience in the cold
////ok i'll take it under advisement.


When younger I needed to go south for Christmas so I put a post on my university board for car shares. I accepted two young women because they would pay for gas. We set south through one of the nastiest stretches of highway in very cold weather. I dressed for the weather. They dressed for southern Mexico. The road closed and I had to keep two kids alive.


Did you zip them into your sleeping bag with you?
 
2012-12-29 01:01:03 PM  
So . . . any hope for the wives to warm up a little?
 
2012-12-29 01:04:14 PM  

Billy Bathsalt: Did you zip them into your sleeping bag with you?


Mostly I kept them from going outside. Life threatening cold is weird.
 
2012-12-29 01:17:27 PM  

Madbassist1:
Also, the guy wouldnt have had any problem if he could have just built a fire.

The article writer could learn a thing or two from this writer.


Came for this - leaving depressed but satisfied
 
2012-12-29 01:19:34 PM  
Excuse me, but... To all of you who say that we should NEVER use the Nazis' research on hypothermia because it's morally tainted:

What, then, would you have us do? There's a dying person in front of you, and the Nazis figured out how to save her life. Do you let her die because the information that could save her was gathered in morally objectionable circumstances?

It's all well and good to say that the research that brought us the information was abhorrent. It's quite another to suppress that information. And IMHO, it's equally abhorrent to refuse to treat a patient using information gained in ways that are awful.
 
2012-12-29 01:21:12 PM  
Oh - and as someone who is planning to drive to Northern Alberta in February, I'm getting a kick...
 
2012-12-29 01:46:15 PM  

hugheric: He lost me at "by this time you've moved off the road." No I haven't I'm not an idiot.


Did you miss the part where he explained that the cold negatively affects your judgment?  Or are you one of those "my mind is impregnable and all those things that affect other peoples minds can't stop mine from being a perfect reasoning machine" types?
 
2012-12-29 02:17:33 PM  
I remember a cop friend of mine showed me some pictures of a teenage kid who froze to death in a farm field near where we lived. The kid was at a party and got drunk and pissed off and decided to walk home. He was only wearing his underwear when they found him. He had stripped off his clothes at the very end, I will never forget the expression on the kid's face. I hope his parents never saw the pictures.
 
2012-12-29 02:17:43 PM  

Abox: How do you not use knowledge? I get disregarding evidence obtained illegally in a trial setting, but to ignore science culled from evil you'd have to pretend not to know the results. Does PETA not use products tested on animals because they declare that they haven't been tested? I suppose that's possible.



"Even if animal tests produced a cure for AIDS, we'd be against it."
- PETA president and co-founder Ingrid Newkirk, in the September 1989 issue of Vogue, Sep 1989

/Of course, she uses insulin as do some other high-ranking members of PETA
 
2012-12-29 02:25:52 PM  

Billy Bathsalt: Can someone without ADD tell me what happened in that article? I tried to skim through it, but got lost in the various tenses and points of view. Did the author almost freeze? Did the author make it? Addled minds want to know, but not badly enough to wade back into the avalanche of text.

/kthx


This.
What an annoying article.
 
2012-12-29 02:26:32 PM  

LumberJack: So, we learn here that, in order not to freeze to death:
1. We need to know how to drive a Jeep without spinning it and planting it so deep that we can't get it out of a snow drift.


Pretty much this. If you don't know how to get your car out of a snowdrift you shouldn't be allowed to drive in the winter. Use the shovel (that should have been in there) to dig some paths, put some branches under the tires for traction, and be on your way, but more carefully.

I'm not surprised that the tool in the story was driving a Jeep. Back when I was living in Colorado I used to see Jeeps in the ditches along the highway every time it snowed. Meanwhile, my VW Golf chugged along just fine. I only had to put on tire chains once.
 
2012-12-29 02:33:56 PM  
Learned it in 7th grade.

images.betterworldbooks.com
 
2012-12-29 02:44:49 PM  

Benevolent Misanthrope: Excuse me, but... To all of you who say that we should NEVER use the Nazis' research on hypothermia because it's morally tainted:

What, then, would you have us do? There's a dying person in front of you, and the Nazis figured out how to save her life. Do you let her die because the information that could save her was gathered in morally objectionable circumstances?

It's all well and good to say that the research that brought us the information was abhorrent. It's quite another to suppress that information. And IMHO, it's equally abhorrent to refuse to treat a patient using information gained in ways that are awful.


This. The methods used to gather the data was simply evil, and I would never condone experiments like that. BUT... The data is out there. It can be used to save lives. It MUST be used to save lives.

It is likely that we would have learned these methods on our own, after many, many attempts at saving those suffering from hypothermia. Should we have ignored the data and experimented on our own until we reached the same conclusions? No.

I've experienced hypothermia, though not as bad as the person in the article. Before the cellphone boom, I lived out in the country, an hour's drive from work. I was driving home on a clear, cold day (just above freezing, not very windy). My car broke down about 2 miles from home, so I started to walk. It was supposed to snow, but not until after dark, so I had a few hours to make the walk home... plenty of time. I was mostly dressed appropriately for the weather at the time... sweater, thick coat, knit cap, good gloves, etc. About ten minutes into my walk, BOOM, blizzard. The temperature dropped, the wind started screaming, and I couldn't see shiat.

More than three hours later, my roommate almost ran over me. I was leaning on a snow bank with my feet sticking out into the road, "taking a short rest". Not so short... he had to break the ice under me before he could get me into his jeep. He'd come out looking for me when I didn't make it home. At least up to the "auditory hallucinations" part, the author is spot on. I'm just glad my roommate knew what to do... and what NOT to do.
 
2012-12-29 03:00:41 PM  
Long ago I was whitewater kayaking in the middle of winter. Two girls in a different group overturned where I was surfing a hole. I dragged them and their gear to shore and started building a fire. They both said they were fine and don't go to the trouble. I pretty much had to physically restrain them. They wanted to get back in the boat. Their clothes were wet, they had stopped shivering, and there was ice everywhere. I insisted that they stay put until I let them go.
Forty five minutes later, after they had warmed by the fire, gone to shivering and stopped, I let them get back in their boat and I escorted them the rest of the way down the river.
I've bumped into one or the other of them over the following years and both of them are so grateful that I was forceful and made that fire, made them warm up by the fire. I've never asked them what they were thinking, but I know they were addled pretty badly.

I'd say that article is right on.
 
2012-12-29 03:16:06 PM  

LabGrrl: First Chill-Then Stupor-Then the Letting Go

As someone who froze half to death once, it's like this...

First you're wondering where you are, but you're not freezing to death, so it's okay.
You ask yourself questions, because you're near no human:

Whose woods these are I think I know.
His house is in the village, though;
He will not see me stopping here
To watch his woods fill up with snow.

Then you start to get mildly confused, for example, starting to think that the local animals are talking or having complex thoughts.

My little horse must think it queer
To stop without a farmhouse near
Between the woods and frozen lake
The darkest evening of the year.

The auditory hallucinations are the first ones. The silence of the snow starts to make noises. Now you're more confused...now you think the animals are capable of asking questions.

He gives his harness bells a shake
To ask if there is some mistake.
The only other sound's the sweep
Of easy wind and downy flake.

You start to repeat things, wondering if you've said it before, first just phrases, then whole sentences.

The woods are lovely, dark, and deep,
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.


Once you're at the repeating sentences stage, you decide to take a lay down in the snow since you're so sleepy. It ceases being cold to you, then you die.


Any particular reason you mixed Frost and Dickinson? Good explication on the Frost; however, using one line from a poem does not really work.
I liked it though.
 
2012-12-29 03:20:11 PM  

Fear the Clam: LumberJack: So, we learn here that, in order not to freeze to death:
1. We need to know how to drive a Jeep without spinning it and planting it so deep that we can't get it out of a snow drift.

Pretty much this. If you don't know how to get your car out of a snowdrift you shouldn't be allowed to drive in the winter. Use the shovel (that should have been in there) to dig some paths, put some branches under the tires for traction, and be on your way, but more carefully.


If you think you can get any car out of any snowdrift by yourself using one shovel and some branches, you shouldn't be allowed to drive in the winter.

I am a skilled winter driver with years of experience in 2WD and 4WD vehicles in snow, ice, and on all surfaces. I don't drive Jeeps but I once found myself in almost exactly this situation. Winding up the ditch was a surprise and getting the vehicle out wasn't going to happen without a winch. I came very close to dying from hypothermia while trying to disprove that fact. I knew I wasn't going to survive a 17 mile walk in the weather I was in but I genuinely thought I could get my truck out. Had it not been 20 degrees below freezing I might have been successful. As it were, I nearly died. The only good to come of my attempts to free my Rover was the fact that I'd cleared rapidly-building drifts in front of the truck, had I not done that the driver that found me simply wouldn't have.

This article is not inaccurate. You'd be surprised how close to dead you can get without even realizing it and how stupid you can become in the process while still thinking you are right on top of your game.
 
2012-12-29 03:25:52 PM  

Madbassist1: FarkTorrance: BiffDangler: On a related note: As I understand it most of what we know about hypothermia, medically speaking, is the result of Nazi experiments on Jews where they deliberately exposed them to freezing water to try to understand hypothermia. Many died of course.

Yeah, they mention in the article some test results from experiments at Dachau. That's actually my biggest gripe about the article: by including that sort of thing, it seems to me that you're validating the scientific "merit" of such experiments. I don't think those d-nozzles deserve to have anything they did put forth as having scientific value, period. Any actual scientists who feel like stepping forward to argue that point, please feel free.

Ya cant think of science in that way.

Also, the guy wouldnt have had any problem if he could have just built a fire.

The article writer could learn a thing or two from this writer.


Damn.
Couldn't finish reading that.
Sounds like freezing to death meets Stephen King.

/feeling cold now
 
2012-12-29 03:29:25 PM  
hugheric: He lost me at "by this time you've moved off the road." No I haven't I'm not an idiot.

Did you miss the part where he explained that the cold negatively affects your judgment? Or are you one of those "my mind is impregnable and all those things that affect other peoples minds can't stop mine from being a perfect reasoning machine" types?


Except at this point in the story the person's temperature had not yet dropped. I realize that it is a fictional story and the author had him make that decision to further the plot, but would someone with skis really decide to go uphill over rough ground rather than on a relatively smooth street? The skiers around here have an absolute caniption fit if there is even a footprint on their ski trail, much less choosing to break ground through a heavily wooded area.

Also, I don't know of anyone who is this cavalier of the temperature once it passes ~-25.
 
2012-12-29 03:30:28 PM  

Missicat: FarkTorrance: BiffDangler: On a related note: As I understand it most of what we know about hypothermia, medically speaking, is the result of Nazi experiments on Jews where they deliberately exposed them to freezing water to try to understand hypothermia. Many died of course.

Yeah, they mention in the article some test results from experiments at Dachau. That's actually my biggest gripe about the article: by including that sort of thing, it seems to me that you're validating the scientific "merit" of such experiments. I don't think those d-nozzles deserve to have anything they did put forth as having scientific value, period. Any actual scientists who feel like stepping forward to argue that point, please feel free.

I had to write a paper in college about the experiments - you were to choose either "the science should be used no matter how it was obtained" or "the science should never be used because of how it was obtained" and support your argument.
/chose the latter.
//still gives me chills thinking of the research I had to do (no pun intended)


A lot of the data we have about human reactions to radiation exposure discloses that the data is from, say, a typical Japanese man/woman/child (since you would need to scale accordingly for, say, a taller and probably larger American).  No idea where that data  might have come from.

A Shambling Mound: If you think you can get any car out of any snowdrift by yourself using one shovel and some branches, you shouldn't be allowed to drive in the winter.

I am a skilled winter driver with years of experience in 2WD and 4WD vehicles in snow, ice, and on all surfaces. I don't drive Jeeps but I once found myself in almost exactly this situation. Winding up the ditch was a surprise and getting the vehicle out wasn't going to happen without a winch. I came very close to dying from hypothermia while trying to disprove that fact. I knew I wasn't going to survive a 17 mile walk in the weather I was in but I genuinely thought I could get my truck out. Had it not been 20 degrees below freezing I might have been successful. As it were, I nearly died. The only good to come of my attempts to free my Rover was the fact that I'd cleared rapidly-building drifts in front of the truck, had I not done that the driver that found me simply wouldn't have.

This article is not inaccurate. You'd be surprised how close to dead you can get without even realizing it and how stupid you can become in the process while still thinking you are right on top of your game.


Glad you made it out, but this.

I have a bag that fits behind the driver's seat with hand and foot warmers, some water, basic first aid stuff, a few energy bars and some water bottles.  And shovel etc thrown in the back, but that bag takes up hardly any space and better safe than sorry.

I got this random makeup case at a estate sale that had a fold up bright orange flag that says "send help"... so that's in the bag too.  Cause while AAA is awesome, I'm not really going to count on the cell phone working.
 
2012-12-29 03:42:28 PM  
Got caught out on Lake Erie, while ice fishing off of the Ferry dock on Catawba Island, when I was 18, many years ago. Me and a buddy went out at about 2pm, which was stupid because it was getting dark at 530pm, quite a ways out, air temp at 6 deg., wind chill around -20, started heading in at 5, hauling shanty and gear, slow going due to rough ice, badly misjudged time it would take to get in, ended up navigating by lights on shore, damned lucky we made it, got to my car, and I was so cold that I could not use my hand to get my keys out of my pocket, fingers would not work. I ended up using both hands together with key between them to get in and start car. I can still remember the pain I felt when my hands began to warm up, like they had been smashed. It wasn't until the next day I realized how lucky we had been.
 
2012-12-29 03:43:34 PM  

A Shambling Mound: Fear the Clam: LumberJack: So, we learn here that, in order not to freeze to death:
1. We need to know how to drive a Jeep without spinning it and planting it so deep that we can't get it out of a snow drift.

Pretty much this. If you don't know how to get your car out of a snowdrift you shouldn't be allowed to drive in the winter. Use the shovel (that should have been in there) to dig some paths, put some branches under the tires for traction, and be on your way, but more carefully.

If you think you can get any car out of any snowdrift by yourself using one shovel and some branches, you shouldn't be allowed to drive in the winter.

I am a skilled winter driver with years of experience in 2WD and 4WD vehicles in snow, ice, and on all surfaces. I don't drive Jeeps but I once found myself in almost exactly this situation. Winding up the ditch...


I don't disagree with you, but I wrote "snowdrift," not "ditch." A ditch will cause problems even without snow. Snow without a ditch, however, is an easily solved problem.
 
2012-12-29 03:53:31 PM  

ciberido: Abox: How do you not use knowledge? I get disregarding evidence obtained illegally in a trial setting, but to ignore science culled from evil you'd have to pretend not to know the results. Does PETA not use products tested on animals because they declare that they haven't been tested? I suppose that's possible.


"Even if animal tests produced a cure for AIDS, we'd be against it."
- PETA president and co-founder Ingrid Newkirk, in the September 1989 issue of Vogue, Sep 1989

/Of course, she uses insulin as do some other high-ranking members of PETA



Right, against the testing but she doesn't say she'd ignore the results of that testing.
 
2012-12-29 04:13:40 PM  

FarkTorrance: In what way? Is expecting the scientific method to exclude torture and mass-murder setting the bar too high?


Yes.

You deal with ethical problems in the science in other ways.  Like, in this case, trying and executing the people who did it.  You don't reject the science.
 
2012-12-29 04:15:11 PM  

Shakespeare's Sister:
Any particular reason you mixed Frost and Dickinson? Good explication on the Frost; however, using one line from a poem does not really work.
I liked it though.


First line from TFA. Rest all Frost.
 
2012-12-29 04:32:43 PM  

FarkTorrance:
Jesus. I think you just broke Robert Frost for me.


The guy was there to commit suicide, but decided that his duty to others was still too great.

/who's house is in the village?
 
2012-12-29 04:33:40 PM  
s/who's/whose/

Do they still teach freezing to death at Ft Wainwright? I had a class in it a long time ago.
 
2012-12-29 05:14:01 PM  

Fear the Clam: I don't disagree with you, but I wrote "snowdrift," not "ditch." A ditch will cause problems even without snow. Snow without a ditch, however, is an easily solved problem.


Point taken. I think in the context of this article, though, we can probably agree that the "drift" in question would be more than a simple pile of snow on the roadside. Though a compact drift can cause problems not easily solved by one person, ditch or no ditch, a totally incompetent driver can often power a decent 4WD vehicle out of a simple drift even without clearing and packing for traction. Of course they will probably just wind up in another one shortly but still..

In my case what looked like a level shoulder was actually a 4-foot, 25(ish) degree embankment with a very dense snow pack. I couldn't even run the motor for heat because the tailpipe was buried and clearing it was only a temporary solution because of heavy snowfall. I later added a snorkel to the truck for exactly that reason but of course never actually needed it.

StreetlightInTheGhetto: I have a bag that fits behind the driver's seat with hand and foot warmers, some water, basic first aid stuff, a few energy bars and some water bottles. And shovel etc thrown in the back, but that bag takes up hardly any space and better safe than sorry.


Always a good idea. I had a kit with warmers but by the time I thought to break them out my hands (and my brain) had stopped working properly. I wound up using my tent-stake mallet on case to open it because I couldn't manipulate the latches and when the handwarmers started to heat up they hurt so bad I couldn't use them. To this day I have never felt pain quite like that. To follow that up:

Ordinary Average Guy: I was so cold that I could not use my hand to get my keys out of my pocket, fingers would not work. I ended up using both hands together with key between them to get in and start car. I can still remember the pain I felt when my hands began to warm up, like they had been smashed. It wasn't until the next day I realized how lucky we had been.


Getting cold is the easy part, and relatively painless. Warming up is pain like nothing you've ever known.
 
2012-12-29 05:19:51 PM  
24.media.tumblr.com

Seems like the search for the last Hollywood video
 
2012-12-29 06:05:12 PM  

LabGrrl: Shakespeare's Sister:
Any particular reason you mixed Frost and Dickinson? Good explication on the Frost; however, using one line from a poem does not really work.
I liked it though.

First line from TFA. Rest all Frost.


I know the first line is from the article. However, Dickinson needs to be added in her entirety. She was an incredible poet. I teach her every semester, and my students are always amazed at the sex in her poetry. I was diappoint that the writer of the author took that line so far out of context that it was not even funny. Ah well. . .I still liked what you had to say about Frost. I get so tired of hearing "I got a lot to do before I die" when it comes to that poem.
 
2012-12-29 06:13:09 PM  

Shakespeare's Sister: LabGrrl: Shakespeare's Sister:
I get so tired of hearing "I got a lot to do before I die" when it comes to that poem.


Point out to them that the house in the village is a church.

Then make them read Inferno first. It's hard to parse Frost without it, especially this one.
 
2012-12-29 06:23:19 PM  

erewhon: Shakespeare's Sister: LabGrrl: Shakespeare's Sister:
I get so tired of hearing "I got a lot to do before I die" when it comes to that poem.


Point out to them that the house in the village is a church.

Then make them read Inferno first. It's hard to parse Frost without it, especially this one.


I have suggested that the house in the village is a church. I would love to have my students read Inferno first; however, sometimes it is like pulling teeth to get them to read a 4 or 5 stanza poem.  My students are taking literature to satisfy an humanities requirement, not because they love the course. Most do not understand why a lit class is required in the first place. They see literature as Tuesday/Thursday 12:30-1:50 trip to the dentist. I tell them, hey, it could be worse, you could be in a math class. No worries, my math prof colleagues do the same thing to their students. Hey, want to solve for X or write an essay about it?
 
2012-12-29 06:30:22 PM  

Abox: ciberido: Abox: How do you not use knowledge? I get disregarding evidence obtained illegally in a trial setting, but to ignore science culled from evil you'd have to pretend not to know the results. Does PETA not use products tested on animals because they declare that they haven't been tested? I suppose that's possible.


"Even if animal tests produced a cure for AIDS, we'd be against it."
- PETA president and co-founder Ingrid Newkirk, in the September 1989 issue of Vogue, Sep 1989

/Of course, she uses insulin as do some other high-ranking members of PETA


Right, against the testing but she doesn't say she'd ignore the results of that testing.


Wasn't the original question the morality of using information gained by Nazi experiments vs throwing that information (and any medical benefits that come from that information) away?

In any case, I don't think the distinction would save PETA from hypocrisy, so there's not much point in arguing about it.
 
2012-12-29 06:43:17 PM  

Shakespeare's Sister:

I have suggested that the house in the village is a church. I would love to have my students read Inferno first; however, sometimes it is like pulling teeth to get them to read a 4 or 5 stanza poem.  My students are taking literature to satisfy an humanities requirement, not because they love the course.


When I got out of the Army, I had some time to kill before engineering school at Ga Tech, and I hadn't been in class per se for a while, at least not a normal civilian sort, so I decided to move in with one of my then unmarried brothers and take some humanities at Mercer University to "get them out of the way", so of course I got Bloody Mary for every one of them.

You had to know Dr Wilder. It was Dead Poets Society meets Mrs Chips. I think her classes were harder than Modern Physics - you couldn't get away with "lots to do before you die" in Structure of Poetry. We started off with Stopping by Woods, she made the comment that the house was a church, start from there, here's your recommended reading, it is on your final exam, by the end of this class you should be able to interpret the poem. And on the reading list was Inferno. I really detested it at first, but once you get past all the Italian political commentary, it's brilliant. And of course, Stopping is full of references to it. But it was painful getting there.
 
2012-12-29 06:59:55 PM  
When I was about 4 years old we found our neighbors dog froze solid on our back porch. My mom was all freaked out that the dog was dead or dying so we propped him up, stiff as board next to the fireplace. I still remember to this day the dog thawing out, springing to life and running around shaking his wet fur all over the house. Mom was not impressed.
 
2012-12-29 07:27:53 PM  
We pop our cat into the freezer when we got out of town and then thaw him out near the woodstove-aside from the wet fur he doesn't seem to mind.
 
2012-12-29 09:23:29 PM  

aerojockey: FarkTorrance: In what way? Is expecting the scientific method to exclude torture and mass-murder setting the bar too high?

Yes.

You deal with ethical problems in the science in other ways.  Like, in this case, trying and executing the people who did it.  You don't reject the science.


THIS. It wasn't just the Nazis of course. Much of the early work on anatomy and thus surgery was done on cadavers who hadn't necessarily left instructions that their bodies be donated to science. Grave robbing was the light end of the spectrum. Murder and the sale of the cadaver to a respected surgeon was not unheard of. There's a very good Simon Pegg movie on the topic.

So is FarkTorrence now going to reject any surgical intervention which may have drawn on knowledge gained from such practices? Better hope you never get appendicitis buddy.
 
2012-12-29 10:07:05 PM  
If you had problems understanding the article, maybe you should take remedial reading. And maybe read something longer than a tweet, if you thought the article was too lengthy.

RE freezing to death: It always kind of amuses me how people think cold isn't dangerous. They'll gripe about summer heat (while they walk from their air-conditioned car to air-conditioned buildings), but in the winter, walk around in shorts, flip flops and a light jacket. Obviously, heat can kill, too, but it doesn't seem to kill quite as fast as cold, if you're a reasonably healthy adult.

And holy shiat, that story about the toddler in Saskatchewan ... damn.
 
2012-12-29 10:27:08 PM  

ciberido: Abox: ciberido: Abox: How do you not use knowledge? I get disregarding evidence obtained illegally in a trial setting, but to ignore science culled from evil you'd have to pretend not to know the results. Does PETA not use products tested on animals because they declare that they haven't been tested? I suppose that's possible.


"Even if animal tests produced a cure for AIDS, we'd be against it."
- PETA president and co-founder Ingrid Newkirk, in the September 1989 issue of Vogue, Sep 1989

/Of course, she uses insulin as do some other high-ranking members of PETA


Right, against the testing but she doesn't say she'd ignore the results of that testing.

Wasn't the original question the morality of using information gained by Nazi experiments vs throwing that information (and any medical benefits that come from that information) away?



Yes. Your PETA quote is that she's against animal testing, not that she'd throw away the results.
 
2012-12-30 01:54:01 AM  
That's what used to be called journalism.  Great find subby and great write, journalist.
 
2012-12-30 03:38:12 AM  

queezyweezel: Cloudchaser Sakonige the Red Wolf: You can tell that subby didn't grow up in a mega (as in a population in the millions) city. If s/he had, instead of "What it feels like to freeze to death," that headline would have been "What it feels like to die of hypothermia"

Only people that grew up in a city with several million people call it hypothermia? Please explain.


Was intended to be a joke on the difference in speech between people in big cities and people in small cities/towns.
 
2012-12-30 05:32:38 AM  
the smell of decaying/dead flesh is one of the worst in the entire. i have to take care of patients that required amputation due to frostbite..just thinking about it makes me want to puke
 
2012-12-30 07:55:02 AM  
It's an option. It lacks the immediacy of putting a bullet in your brain but it probably isn't all that bad of a way to go. I've been cold before. Yeah, very cold. Oh yeah, it sucks, but pour some alcohol down the old gullet and you might not care so much.

any kind of death is tolerable if you pass out first.
 
2012-12-30 08:31:46 AM  
Last winter I drove a dog team up the Yentna River, through Skwentna, and up to Finger Lake lodge. It was 65 below zero on the river with a headwind, and it's the closest I've come to freezing to death. It's impossible to describe that kind of cold with words, along with the fear that creeps in as the chill sets in.

\true story
\\on my way back through, it was 25 below at Yentna Station, and it felt like summertime.
 
2012-12-30 08:48:02 AM  
I've gotten pretty far along the hypothermia getting at you chain before, I was unloading a truck load of tires while a blizzard was blowing in in Fort Wayne, it was like around or below 0 Fahrenheit actual temp with like 20+ MPH winds so a wind chill of like -30 or worse.

I was dressed warmly and in layers, but I got hot enough to start sweating while slinging tires off the truck and moisture + cold = you gonna get hypothermia. So anyways I couldn't handle a pen or paper because my hands was so numb when I got done unloading

So after I got back in the cab of the truck to go to a truck stop I noticed that I was shivering uncontrolably and felt fracking cold as hell even though my thermometer said the inside of the truck was almost 90. When I got to the truck stop and went inside where it was like regular 70 room temp it felt as cold as being outside. When I went to the pisser then went to wash my hands afterwords my hands was so numb I couldn't really feel the warm water when I was washing them.

After i realized that I was that far down the hypothermia rabbit hole I went to the restaurant and ordered a coffee (even though I don't like coffee) just to get some warmth back in me. After I got warmed up enough to have feeling back in my hands I went and paid for a shower so I could take a long hot one to heat up quick.
 
2012-12-30 11:09:33 AM  
u go to like Amundsen-Scott and jerk off in the shivering antarctic winter cold
 
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